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Severe problems found in temperature monitoring network.

Earlier this year, the National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration reported 2006 as ”the warmest year on record" for the United States-- a statement the media trumpeted from coast to coast.  A few months later, the NOAA revised their figures, saying it was actually the second warmest on record.  Unsurprisingly, the correction drew little attention.

But just how accurate are these figures?  The NOAA generates them from a network of 1,221 simple weather stations, usually no more a thermometer inside a tiny wooden hut, most operated by volunteers, not scientists.  The network has been in operation since 1900, and provides the official baseline data for both the NOAA and global warming modelers.  To ensure accurate data, the sites are supposed to conform to several guidelines, such as minimum distance from other buildings, hot pavement, etc.

California meteorologist Anthony Watts began surveying these sites recently, to see just how well they're being maintained.   His site, surfacestations.org, has detailed a surprising number being operated in a manner guaranteed to compromise their data.  The problem is recent development, which has placed many sites next to direct or indirect sources of heat.

In a prime example, a site in Orland, CA (which meets good guidelines) has shown a pattern of declining temperatures for many years.  A few miles away, a station in Marysville has shown a rising pattern...but the station is now next to dark asphalt, and only a few feet from the exhaust vent of a commercial AC unit.  Another site is near a large barrel used for burning trash.  One site even had a light bulb burning inside the tiny enclosed hut, effectively warming the thermometer by several degrees.

Surfacestations.org has only surveyed 48 of the total sites, but problems abound.  Watts says this raises serious doubts about the accuracy of the network, the only source of long-term historical data for US temperature data.

The NOAA did not return a request for comments on the accuracy of their monitoring network.



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I don't get it...
By oTAL (blog) on 6/18/2007 12:41:04 PM , Rating: 5
You know what... I don't get it!
Some time ago the general argument was that global warming wasn't happening. Then, when proof became too large to ignore, the argument changed to "It's not man made! There's nothing we can do!". I recall several articles in which you used this same argument: Yes, it's happening... but it's not our fault and there's nothing we can do about it!

Now suddenly you go back to "Maybe it's not even happening".

I'm all for critical thinking and I give both camps the benefit of the doubt (even though I lean more towards trusting the findings of one of them). I do find this article interesting and it is important to test the validity of scientific studies.

What I don't get is you (and others with similar attitude). Why do you want so badly to create doubt about global? Does it make you sleep better, feeling safer?

What do you believe is fact? You seem to change what you believe in... or rather believe in everything that points out flaws in man-made global warming...

Is the planet warming up or not? Do you consider the possibility that man-made global warming is happening or do you disregard any evidence pointing in that direction?
I'm honestly curious about that...




RE: I don't get it...
By BPB on 6/18/2007 12:51:38 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
What I don't get is you (and others with similar attitude). Why do you want so badly to create doubt about global? Does it make you sleep better, feeling safer?
I myself am no longer at all sure what I believe. but I wonder, wouldn't the question be just as provocative if it said: What I don't get is you (and others with similar attitude). Why do you want so badly to believe in global warming? Does it make you sleep better, feeling better or smarter than others? Are you making money off of it? Does it help you to hurt those with whom you disagree?


RE: I don't get it...
By Kefner on 6/18/2007 2:29:21 PM , Rating: 2
I was thinking the exact same thing when I read his post.


RE: I don't get it...
By Chillin1248 (blog) on 6/18/2007 8:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
As for Antarctic ice, here's a recent article from Geophysical Research Abstracts, Vol. 8 (2006). It demonstrates an overall increase in Antarctic mass balance:

http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU06/08427/EGU06-J...

Here's another, from Science, Nov 2005 (reprinted):

quote:
A Norwegian-led team used the ERS data to measure elevation changes in the Greenland Ice Sheet from 1992 to 2003, finding recent growth in the interior sections estimated at around six centimetres per year during the study period

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-11/esa...

Another from Science:

quote:
Satellite radar altimetry measurements indicate that the East Antarctic ice-sheet interior north of 81.6°S increased in mass by 45 ± 7 billion metric tons per year from 1992 to 2003

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/308...

One from Nature last year, showing growth in the East Antarctic:

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050516/full/050516...

An earlier one, showing similar growth in the West Antarctic:

quote:
The West Antarctic ice sheet has been retreating for several thousand years, so to look now and see that it is growing is staggering to me ," [Professor] Tulaczyk said.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/01/02013...

Another, this one back in 2002:

quote:
We find strong evidence for ice-sheet growth (+26.8 gigatons per year), in contrast to earlier estimates indicating a mass deficit (20.9 gigatons per year).

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/295...

I know that most of the links are dead by now, but I assure you that if you search enough in the Internet Time Machine (http://www.archive.org/web/web.php) you will find them .

The accepted global average temperature statistics used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change show that no ground-based warming has occurred since 1998. Oddly, this eight-year-long temperature stasis has occurred despite an increase over the same period of 15 parts per million (or 4 per cent) in atmospheric CO2.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,2...

Also this (courtesy of Masher):

quote:
We have wished, we ecofreaks, for a disaster or social change to come and bomb us back into the Stone Age , where we might live like Indians in our valley, with our localism, our appropriate technology, our gardens, our homemade religions-- guilt free at last!
Environmentalist Stewart Brand, writing in the Whole Earth catalogue.

quote:
If environmentalists were to invent a disease to bring human population back to sanity, it would probably be something like Aids. Aids has the potential to end industrialism , which is the main force behind the environmental crisis
from the Earth First newsletter.

quote:
"I'd wish [to be reincarnated as] a killer virus, to lower human population levels"
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, speaking as leader of the World Wildlife Fund.

quote:
We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down the existing dams, free shackled rivers, and return to wilderness tens and tens of millions of acres of settled land
Environmentalist David Foreman, founder of Earth First.

quote:
The planet has broken out with fever, and we [human beings] are the disease. We should be at war with ourselves and our lifestyles.
Environmentalist Thomas Lovejoy, speaking as Asst. Secretary of the Smithsonian.

And how about one of the most famous environmentalists of all, Paul Ehrlich, Stanford University biologist, and author of several books on forced deindustrialization of the US and other nations.

Here's a few of the scientists who don't believe in global warming alarmism:

Dr. Freeman J. Dyson, emeritus professor of physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J.
Dr. Richard Lindzen, Sloane Professor of Atmospheric Science, MIT.
Dr. Frederick Seitz, former president, National Academy of Sciences.
Dr. Richard Gray, Meteorologist, Colorado State Univ.
Dr. Henrik Svensmark, Astrophysicist, Danish Space Research Institute
Dr. Nir Shariv, Astrophysicist, Univ. of Jerusalem
Dr. V.K. Raina, Glaciologist, Geologic Soc. of India
Patrick Michaels, State Climatologist Virginia
David Legates, State Climatologist Delaware
Dr. George Taylor, State Climatologist Oregon (fired just last month by the Governor for failing to toe the party line)
Dr. Ian D. Clark, hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, University of Ottawa
Dr. Tad Murty, professor of earth sciences, University of Ottawa
Dr. R. Timothy Patterson, professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University, Ottawa
Dr. Fred Michel, director, Institute of Environmental Science, Carleton University, Ottawa
Dr. Paul Copper, FRSC, professor emeritus, Dept. of Earth Sciences, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ont.
Dr. Tim Ball, professor of climatology, University of Winnipeg; environmental consultant
Dr. Andreas Prokoph, professor of earth sciences, University of Ottawa
Mr. David Nowell, M.Sc, fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society
Dr. Christopher Essex, associate director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.
Dr. Gordon E. Swaters, member, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Research Group, University of Alberta
Dr. L. Graham Smith, associate professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.
Dr. G. Cornelis van Kooten, professor and Canada Research Chair in environmental studies and climate change, Dept. of Economics, University of Victoria
Dr. Petr Chylek, adjunct professor, Dept. of Physics and Atmospheric Science, Dalhousie University, Halifax
Dr./Cdr. M. R. Morgan, FRMS, climate consultant, former meteorology advisor to the World Meteorological Organization.
Dr. Keith D. Hage, professor emeritus of Meteorology, University of Alberta
Dr. Chris de Freitas, climate scientist, associate professor, The University of Auckland, N.Z.
Dr. Ian Plimer, professor of geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide; emeritus professor of earth sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia
Dr. R.M. Carter, professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Townsville, Australia
Mr. William Kininmonth, Australasian Climate Research, former Head National Climate Centre, Australian Bureau of Meteorology.
Dr. Hendrik Tennekes, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute
Dr. Gerrit J. van der Lingen, geologist/paleoclimatologist, Climate Change Consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand
Dr. Patrick J. Michaels, professor of environmental sciences, University of Virginia
Dr. Nils-Axel Morner, emeritus professor of paleogeophysics & geodynamics, Stockholm University, Stockholm, Sweden
Dr. Gary D. Sharp, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, Calif.
Dr. Roy W. Spencer, principal research scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville
Dr. Al Pekarek, professor of geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, Minn.
Dr. Marcel Leroux, professor emeritus of climatology, University of Lyon, France
Dr. Paul Reiter, professor, Institut Pasteur, Paris, France. Expert reviewer, IPCC.
Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski, physicist.
Dr. Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, Dept. of Geography, University of Hull, U.K
Dr. Lee C. Gerhard, senior scientist emeritus, University of Kansas
Dr. August H. Auer, University of Wyoming; previously chief meteorologist, Meteorological Service (MetService) of New Zealand
Dr. Vincent Gray, expert reviewer for the IPCC ..
Dr. Howard Hayden, emeritus professor of physics, University of Connecticut
Dr. Jack Barrett, chemist and spectroscopist, Imperial College London, U.K.
Dr. S. Fred Singer, professor emeritus of environmental sciences, University of Virginia; former director, U.S. Weather Satellite Service
Dr. Harry N.A. Priem, emeritus professor of planetary geology and geophysics, Utrecht University; past president of the Royal Netherlands Geological & Mining Society
Dr. Sallie Baliunas, astrophysicist and climate researcher, Boston, Mass.
Douglas Hoyt, NCAR, NOAA, and the World Radiation Center, Davos, Switzerland
Dipl.-Ing. Peter Dietze, official IPCC reviewer, Bavaria, Germany
Dr. Boris Winterhalter, marine researcher, Geological Survey of Finland.
Dr. Wibjorn Karlen, emeritus professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden
Dr. Hugh W. Ellsaesser, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Calif.
Dr. Richard S. Courtney, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 8:19:43 PM , Rating: 4
ok, thats obnoxious. If I were to type out the name of every scientist who believes the data on global warming we could be here for weeks. The list is impressive, but you could have said "prominant environmentalists" like everyone else.

Just out of curiosity how did you compile your list?


RE: I don't get it...
By Chillin1248 (blog) on 6/18/07, Rating: 0
RE: I don't get it...
By Lightning III on 6/19/2007 12:09:09 PM , Rating: 3
missing the fine print don't beleive in ALARMISM not necessarily global Warming


RE: I don't get it...
By GreenyMP on 7/14/2007 2:47:01 PM , Rating: 2
I was hoping the polar ice caps would melt so that Megatron would finally be released.


RE: I don't get it...
By Performance Fanboi on 6/18/2007 12:53:05 PM , Rating: 2
You Know What? I don't get YOU! - Is there a single word in the article challenging the theory of global warming? You seem to have a problem with the fact that some of the data is being corrupted by poor practices - if the temperature trend was downwards making it appear as though global warming was not true would you still not care that the data is warped? Peoplee like you are a dime a dozen - you only believe the science that supports you and ignore all other indications.


RE: I don't get it...
By oTAL (blog) on 6/18/07, Rating: 0
RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/20/2007 1:19:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Using a somewhat famous quote here on DT: Who pissed on your Cherios?

That in a nutshell is the sole function and purpose for MAsher and DT. It's not about facts, truth, objectivity, science, none of that. It's about argumentative sparring and one-upmanship with a weak veil of science wrapped around it.

I wonder how many people MAsher's "scientific" ancestors stoned when the first ideas that the earth wasn't flat started circulating.


RE: I don't get it...
By BMFPitt on 6/19/2007 12:14:42 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
You Know What? I don't get YOU! - Is there a single word in the article challenging the theory of global warming?
Click on MAsher's blog. Every article is about how global warming is fake. I would be fine with this if I got the sense that he cared whether what he was selling were true.


RE: I don't get it...
By TomZ on 6/19/2007 12:21:34 AM , Rating: 2
C'mon, get real - of course he believes this stuff is true. He has pretty clearly put forward his view that the scientific evidence supporting significant human-induced global warming is questionable at best, and more likely just plain wrong. And I am inclined to agree. When you dig into the subject at all, many of the "facts" upon which the whole global warming alarmist rhetoric is built upon melt away pretty quickly. There's no real substance - just a lot of people shouting loudly.


RE: I don't get it...
By BMFPitt on 6/19/2007 7:41:39 AM , Rating: 3
I find his writing style to be far too similar to Intelligent Design promoters. If he spent less time with the whole, "The environmentalists who just want us all to go back to the stone age are making it all up" angle, he might be more credible.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/20/2007 1:10:44 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
He has pretty clearly put forward his view that the scientific evidence supporting significant human-induced global warming is questionable at best, and more likely just plain wrong

Well the main problem has always been the same for both sets of extremists. They are both convinced (the eco-fundamentalists and MAsher and his "believers") that they have all the science they need to come to a total conclusion. What MAsher always keeps in denial is that his methods or persuasion using "science" are just as limited to only the facts that he feels like promoting as the eco-freaks. The exact same tactics in reverse. Any scientific, intelligent, and thinking person would find such methods questionable at best. But no, like Rush Limbaugh he blows off anyone and everyone that dares question his conclusion and even goes so far as to make fun of them. As soon as some weakpoint can be found in opposing argument he punches a hole in it and claims victory. Note how many times he says "my point trumps your point", like one-upmanship is all that there is around here.

And it is.

quote:
There's no real substance - just a lot of people shouting loudly.

That's includes MAsher and his kind. His science is no more than the tip of the iceberg, just like all the people he makes fun of. Those that live in glass houses......


RE: I don't get it...
By TomZ on 6/20/2007 2:05:07 PM , Rating: 1
I think you're trying to turn this discussion into a "debate about the debate." I think that is just a cop out - a way of avoid talking about topics with substance.

Anyway, I think Asher's theme if there is one is that all the rheroric and alarmism surrounding the global warming scare is backed by science that is very iffy at best. I don't see anything anti-eco in his attitudes - I believe he is simply against the public being duped as they have in this instance and trying to counteract the misinformation with actual information.

If you have information that contradicts what has been discussed, please bring it forward. That would be much more interesting to discuss than a "debate about the debate." For example, do you have evidence that the NOAA temperature stations are actually accurate and well-maintained?

Finally, I would highly encourage you to download and watch that video that someone linked below. It's pretty eye-opening.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/20/2007 2:18:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyway, I think Asher's theme if there is one is that all the rheroric and alarmism surrounding the global warming scare is backed by science that is very iffy at best.

I'm just noting similarities in style and content.

quote:
If you have information that contradicts what has been discussed, please bring it forward.

Read his past posts for that, just loaded with objectivity.


RE: I don't get it...
By Ringold on 6/18/2007 1:17:44 PM , Rating: 4
It's my own opinion that masher is simply performing the critical thinking of the sort you say you're for. Nobody else is. The mainstream media isn't, and most geek-oriented media isn't either out of a natural liberal tendency that seems to exist amongst them. (I exclude [H], heheh, but they don't opine on such things) So what sort of posts do Mr. Asher seem to make? Those that take all those other slightly biased reports and shine a critical light on them.

Does global warming exist? Maybe it does, maybe it doesnt, but if it does, here's some evidence that shows our current-day data is possibly unreliable, meaning we may not accurately be able to detect its true magnitude. If there is, is it caused by man? He's covered that angle too.

Critical thinking requires a vigorous assault from all angles. For global warming that includes looking at data collection, as covered here, and the output of climate scientists research, which has been covered previously, both of which I imagine will continue to be reported on. I myself see no real flip-flopping on the part of Mr. Asher here but doing so would merely reflect an updated status of his opinion based on his ongoing education of the matter.

Asides from perhaps not enjoying the sensation caused by reading things that challenge preconceived notions, I'm not particularly sure what your objection really is. This one isn't truly all that different in substance or style than any of his past ones, the concept of all of them being (or at least what I derive out of them) "I don't know and these guys clearly don't either."


RE: I don't get it...
By oTAL (blog) on 6/18/2007 1:44:30 PM , Rating: 4
That was a great answer. I would rate it up if I could.
Still, I see such a certainty in some of his posts that it kind of defeats the purpose you're giving them. When I read the famous quote of driving the hummer but not stopping at McDonald's I see no doubts - only certainties.
I am all out for critical thinking and I don't think it is wrong to change one's opinion (if it's not too often =P). But I see little room for doubt in his statements and I find that, at least in my head, there was some contradiction here.
If there was a change in opinion, that would be ok, but I would rather have it openly stated.
If, as you say, it's more of the type "I don't know and these guys clearly don't either" then I think some room for doubt should be more evident on the articles...

I don't know... maybe it's just me... one thing I can tell you: When I'm sure I am never wrong (it will happen eventually - just hasn't happened yet). When I'm not sure I may strongly opine in one direction but I always leave room for doubt. The benefit of that attitude is that, when I'm sure, most people who know me just accept it and don't dispute it (they often do go and check it out so that they may rub it in my face if I'm wrong).

Anyway, thanks for your post.


RE: I don't get it...
By masher2 (blog) on 6/18/2007 2:08:42 PM , Rating: 3
> "When I read the famous quote of driving the hummer but not stopping at McDonald's I see no doubts - only certainties..."

That quote came from an earlier blog of mine (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5349) which referenced the conclusions of an official UN report. The logic chain behind it is, that if global warming is occurring and if its primarily caused by mankind and if its neccessary (or even desirable) to mitigate it, then one can do so better by reducing your meat intake rather than your gasoline consumption.

On this particular point, the science is well settled. We don't know the total effect of greenhouse gases on the atmosphere, but we do know the relative contributions of methane versus carbon dioxide. Regardless of what that total effect is, a Hummer-driving vegetarian has less impact on it than a Prius-driving burger lover.


RE: I don't get it...
By xsilver on 6/20/2007 12:23:26 PM , Rating: 2
do hummer driving vegetarians even exist?

isnt this issue also politically based as well? eg. the farming lobby groups are much stronger than the oil lobbies.

If you proposed that we reduce our consumption of meat by 25% by 2020 you'd probably be laughed out of parliament but proposing a reduction of 25% gas use and the public accept it. lol that figures.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/21/2007 9:25:15 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
isnt this issue also politically based as well? eg. the farming lobby groups are much stronger than the oil lobbies.


This begs the question, why do oil companies with record profits need government funds for drilling? Historic profits and corporate welfare at the same time, seems an odd combination.

quote:
If you proposed that we reduce our consumption of meat by 25% by 2020 you'd probably be laughed out of parliament but proposing a reduction of 25% gas use and the public accept it. lol that figures.

Do you see people wasting meat in the same magnitude as gas?

Doesn't your doctor suggest lowering meat consumption? Do you laugh at your doctor?


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/21/2007 11:46:32 AM , Rating: 2
> why do oil companies with record profits need government funds for drilling?

They don't. We give them money if they drill where WE want them to, even if thats a spot they'd rather pass by. That helps us and them both.

Of course, I'm sure you'd rather just pass a law to force them to do exactly what you want. Or better yet, just seize the company for "the good of the people", right?


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/20/2007 1:24:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Critical thinking requires a vigorous assault from all angles.

And you see that MAsher articles? Or are they as one-sided extremist as his opposition? There's never been any middle ground around here, just plenty of anti-eco-freaks who agree with his alledged conclusions.


RE: I don't get it...
By TomZ on 6/20/2007 2:47:52 PM , Rating: 2
I disagree. If you look at this thread, for example, you see people with a wide range of viewpoints. I don't see any general "anti-eco" attitude.

Anyway, for the record, I'm pro-science, which puts be on the devil's advocate side of the global warming issue. Global warming is about politics, not science. Pro-science is not anti-eco.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/21/2007 9:18:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I disagree. If you look at this thread, for example, you see people with a wide range of viewpoints. I don't see any general "anti-eco" attitude.

All you need do it click blog, than Michael Asher, and read his past blogs. This one piece of the puzzle won't give you the whole picture.

There's also no moderation here, such as even if there is a natural warming trend whether or not man is speeding it up and/or increasing it. Its as if both can't happen at the same time.

And you have Porkie claiming lower heating costs as a positive, as if nobody in the entire world uses or even heard of air conditioning. That's the kind of balanced attitude you'll find in the blogs and the threads, if you remain scientific enough to look for it. It's up to you.

Good luck in your search for the truth, you will certainly need it around here.


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/21/2007 11:48:37 AM , Rating: 3
All you need to do is click on your name, and read your past postings. You continue to attack Asher, me, and anyone who disagrees with you. Instead of arguing facts and figures, you're rather just issue personal insults.

Some people call that ad hominem. Me, I just call it running scared.


RE: I don't get it...
By Moishe on 6/18/2007 1:18:43 PM , Rating: 4
I'm curious why the search for more knowledge is bad? Is knowledge bad? Is it bad if it proves global warming is true, if it proves that it's man made? What if it proves that global warming is not happening or that it is happening, but that it's just natural?

Fact is, I want to hear it all. If the NOAA stations are trustworthy I want to know, but if they're not, I want to know that as well so it can be fixed. Once it's fixed maybe then NOAA will revise their predictions (up or down) based on more accurate data.

I see nothing but good coming from more knowledge and I don't understand people who only want more knowledge as long as it is knowledge that supports their predetermined mindset.


RE: I don't get it...
By Oregonian2 on 6/19/2007 6:56:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm curious why the search for more knowledge is bad? Is knowledge bad? Is it bad if it proves global warming is true, if it proves that it's man made? What if it proves that global warming is not happening or that it is happening, but that it's just natural?


More knowledge is bad if it's against one's viewpoint. More knowledge is bad if it doesn't prove America and Americans at fault for something. Many Americans and most of the American media have a self-esteem problem. Unless we can prove ourself bad, preferably blaming the "other" political party, all is misery. Whether or not it's true doesn't matter. One can't be the hero fixing things unless a disaster problem is invented first. If the problem really is fiction, it becomes all the easier to become the smart hero later!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but unfortunately I think there's a strong thread of truth in it.


RE: I don't get it...
By TomZ on 6/19/2007 8:07:53 PM , Rating: 3
I couldn't agree more.

For example, to me it is seriously stupid to be giving global warming even a small fraction of our bandwidth, when other more serious and acute problems still go without any solution.

For example, what should be done about the AIDS epidemic, especially in Africa where it orphans a staggering proportion of the children?

What about rebuilding the damage in and around New Orleans from hurricane Katrina? Lots of promises there, and no real action. Practically nothing's been done.

How about the immigration problem, where you have 10-20 million illegal/undocumented people in our country? Where is the rule of law, and why can't our elected leaders make any kind of meaningful progress towards solving this problem?

What can we do to help work towards a meaningful peace solution in the Mideast? American policies there have failed time after time, and we are stuck in a "quagmire" of an occupation in Iraq.

So instead of focusing our attention on these types of real issues, we invent a big problem like "global warming" and get all worked up about our "carbon footprints" and about buying "carbon offsets" in order to make up for our outlandish lifestyles. We talk about how polar bears are going to become extinct, and how the coral reefs are being destroyed. All of this will little or no actual scientific basis behind it. Oh, please, give me a break!


RE: I don't get it...
By BMFPitt on 6/19/2007 11:17:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How about the immigration problem, where you have 10-20 million illegal/undocumented people in our country? Where is the rule of law, and why can't our elected leaders make any kind of meaningful progress towards solving this problem?
Yeah, why is the media not covering this at all? And why hasn't Congress even discussed a bill?


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/21/2007 9:28:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
How about the immigration problem, where you have 10-20 million illegal/undocumented people in our country? Where is the rule of law, and why can't our elected leaders make any kind of meaningful progress towards solving this problem?

How about a general trend, an estimate of how many per year over the last 50 years? Its not like all this started in this century.


RE: I don't get it...
By TomZ on 6/21/2007 12:25:50 PM , Rating: 2
Well, considering our last round of amnesty in the late 1980's (obviously a huge failure, BTW), I'd say probably the majority of today's illegals have just arrived in the past 15-20 years.

Anyway, what's the difference when it started? Our country has laws, and I'd like to see them enforced. I'm pro-immigration - pro- legal immigration, that is. There already exists a legal path to immigration that has been existed for centuries - let's make sure everyone uses that.


RE: I don't get it...
By masher2 (blog) on 6/18/2007 1:21:11 PM , Rating: 5
> "Why do you want so badly to create doubt about global?"

Good question. Because I believe in the truth, and there are serious doubts about anthropogenic global warming along climatologists. The current politicization of the climate debate is a very bad thing. Bad for the people, bad for the economy, and bad for the scientific method itself.

Even the most vociferious supporter of global warming-- the UN IPCC-- only concludes there is a 90% chance than man is contributing to "some" of the warming experienced. The media then translates this to "no doubt" that man is responsible for all the warming. It then goes further to state this is a looming catastrophe of biblical proportions, when all evidence is that it will be anything from a minor annoyance to something actually benefical to us.

Meanwhile, dozens of climatologists (many of which were originally on the IPCC's panel until they quit in disgust) vehemently disagree that man is causing any of this. Those scientists are rarely interviewed, they regularly receive death threats and worse from environmentalists, and at least two have lost their government positions...fired by politicians, bowing to public sentiment.

So while we debate economically-crippling multi trillion dollar solutions to a problem that may not even exist, children are dying in some places for want a 50-cent medical treatment, and entire nations are being told to ignore the incredible benefits of cheap energy. True scientists go unheard, while singers and actors who failed 8th grade math suddenly become experts in atmospheric science, and, while they spend millions jet-set around the globe, tell us we're "consuming" too much.

Am I offended and alarmed by all this? Yes. Do I sleep better at night after trying to counter it? Most certainly, I do.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 3:10:05 PM , Rating: 4
"Even the most vociferious supporter of global warming-- the UN IPCC-- only concludes there is a 90% chance than man is contributing to "some" of the warming experienced."

Thats a really unsupportive figure... Because 90% is a convincing majority and that 10% could easily be made up of the members who would benefit greatly from unregulated fossil fuel usage.

"Meanwhile, dozens of climatologists (many of which were originally on the IPCC's panel until they quit in disgust) vehemently disagree that man is causing any of this."

Dozens does not an overwhelming majority make. It still makes more sense that these are scientists who were paid off by oil lobbyists to make dissenting statements. Ridiculous? It wasnt long ago that tobacco was paying doctors and scientists to misrepresent facts as well.

"So while we debate economically-crippling multi trillion dollar solutions to a problem that may not even exist, children are dying in some places for want a 50-cent medical treatment, and entire nations are being told to ignore the incredible benefits of cheap energy."


You are quick to use suffering as dis-incentive to change, but lets not forget that those same people were suffering long before the phrase "global warming" was ever uttered... I dont think helping the sick is really what this is all about (and I certainly have yet to hear your ideas on health care for those in want of 50 cent medical treatment.)

When it all comes down to it, it seems like the argument against global warming was really concocted by people who dont like the economic repercussions of changing our use of oil.
Until it becomes clear that this argument is not presented out of fear the US will lose its economic edge, it is hard to give it the credibility that it is presented with.


RE: I don't get it...
By greenchasch on 6/18/2007 3:17:38 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
that 10% could easily be made up of the members who would benefit greatly from unregulated fossil fuel usage.
Rofl, they didn't ask scientists to stick up their hands and vote. The figure means the majority have a 90% confidence level in the data. Meaning they believe there's a roughly 10% chance their conclusion may be wrong.

quote:
these are scientists who were paid off by oil lobbyists
For every scientist getting a grant from an oil company, there's two dozen getting one from Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, or from an EU Green-Party influenced government. There's far more money these days in claiming the sky is falling than in being calm and rational.

quote:
it seems like the argument against global warming was concocted...
Thats not how science works. You don't have to prove something doesn't exist. You have to prove it does. The argument has to be made FOR global warming-- and so far, that argument has a lot of holes in it.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 3:29:07 PM , Rating: 2


For every scientist getting a grant from an oil company, there's two dozen getting one from Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, or from an EU Green-Party influenced government. There's far more money these days in claiming the sky is falling than in being calm and rational.

I've heard this argument allot and never seen any supporting data...


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/18/2007 3:34:28 PM , Rating: 2
You've seen more of it as the "supporting data" claiming all the scientists who disagree are funded by oil companies. I can't count the number of times a prominent climatologist has been smeared as an "industry shill" just for voicing his opposition to global warming.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 3:54:02 PM , Rating: 2
I can't count the number of times a prominent climatologist has been smeared as an "industry shill" just for voicing his opposition to global warming.

ok... well, you cant count very high then, because its far from an everyday occurrence.

I'm not trying to be flip, but I also think there are majority of "prominent" climatologists who think global warming is very real.


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/18/2007 4:04:42 PM , Rating: 3
> "you cant count very high then, because its far from an everyday occurrence.

Are you joking? There are entire websites run by environmentalists that exist for no other reason than to try to discredit scientists who don't agree with their cause. And you will never find a single global warming thread (including this one and every other one on this site or any other) that doesn't include people throwing out the "funded by big oil" red herring. All always without a single shred of proof.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 4:16:36 PM , Rating: 1
Maybe I wasn't being clear... I was saying it was far from an everyday occurrence that a prominent environmentalist disagrees with global warming.

The tobacco industry is still being sued for paying doctors to misrepresent information on cancer and tobacco. I agree that we are quick to jump to the assumption that big oil is funding dissenters... we're a pretty jaded population because we have been lied to so many times.


RE: I don't get it...
By ttowntom on 6/18/2007 4:19:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it was far from an everyday occurrence that a prominent environmentalist disagrees with global warming
This news story just out today:

"Climate Scientist Says Global Warming Doesn't Exist"

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,2...


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/18/2007 4:23:12 PM , Rating: 2
> we're a pretty jaded population because we have been lied to so many times.

I'm jaded over being lied to about "global cooling" when I was in high school. Or being told that "acid rain" meant the end of every forest on the planet. Or being told that by the year 2000, we'd all be starving to death from mass famines everywhere.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 5:01:23 PM , Rating: 1
Right, I got those lines too, but they are pretty harmless compared to the consequences of say the tobacco industry's lies. No one died of worry thinking acid rain was going to harm the rain forests... lots of people died because they believed that it was inconclusive that smoking caused cancer. Which do you think was the more harmful?

If one industry could protect its interests at such a high cost, why wouldn't the oil industry? The largest and most profitable industry in the world?

If you were so easily jaded by a few crazy rumblings about acid rain, why don't the out and out lies told by big corporations leave you with alittle distrust?


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/18/2007 5:46:14 PM , Rating: 4
> No one died of worry thinking acid rain was going to harm the rain forests...

Millions of people-- maybe even tens of millions- died from malaria, because someone managed to convince us that DDT was causing eggshells to thin. Meanwhile, the few nations who didn't follow the US lead continued to use DDT. They didn't see the massive increases in malarial rates...and they didn't see any declines in bird populations either.

> why don't the out and out lies told by big corporations leave you with alittle distrust?

Who there cubbie! I'm not listening to big corporations. I'm listening those scientists who point out huge flaws in the global warming theories.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/21/2007 9:32:33 AM , Rating: 2
So explain why DDT hasn't made a huge comback with all this scientific data you're providing?

And why hasn't supply and demand worked to find a cure for malaria? There's certainly demand, isn't there?


RE: I don't get it...
By Ringold on 6/18/2007 6:02:16 PM , Rating: 2
I responded to your statements about the oil industry (Green Peace doesn't want you to know that the oil industry has huge investments in renewable energy, or that there's many utility companies that would profit from CO2 taxes, and nevermind the vast renewable energy sector that would cease to exist if GW paranoia cooled off) in a below post, but about acid rain..

I remember very distinctly hearing several times when I was young, I cant even remember how old I was, but I just "knew" that acid rain meant that by now almost all forests and swamps would be destroyed if drastic measures weren't taken. No such massive measures were taken and, lo and behold, Florida is covered in so much green it makes me sick of the color. Environmentalists, and their ties to the communist movements of yesteryear, overstretched and time proved that they were stirring the pot and essentially lied.

You attempt to obfuscate, however, by bringing up other companies lies. That's irrelevant. The point is that the environmentalist radicals have pushed a climate change agenda before on nothing much more than faith and lies. They couldn't achieve their political goals with politics, they switched to the climate and have shoved aside the people that truly care about nature for the sake of nature (such as one of the Green Peace founders, who can't stand the radicalism). They failed with their first attempt at mass paranoia, and now they're trying again. It's not enough just to believe their fairy tales yourself, but you have to spin doubt and uncertainty toward other unrelated parties (like tabacco) to try to defend them!

At any rate, I've picked up on much more subtle forms of propaganda than that, you'll have to try a lot harder. :) Trying to make the environmentalists credibility look better by comparing it to anybody elses credibility doesn't change the fact that the credibility still is dismal.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 8:43:53 PM , Rating: 1
Alright, look. Your claims that I am spreading propaganda really dont carry allot of weight considering the fact that I hear you spout the most McCarthy-ist hateful inflammatory nonsense in a majority of your posts. There are the occasional few where you actually come across as a reasonable person (and I have to say I am very impressed by you in those moments,) but you mostly come across as an xenophobic hillbilly asshole.

I brought up the tobacco industry in response to someone saying they were jaded from the lies spun by environmentalist. I was saying that I was jaded from the lies told by large multinational corporations and that I take those lies far more seriously. It certainly doesnt seem like obfuscation in that context, perhaps you want to enlighten me...
Or just call me a "Commie" again.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/18/2007 8:46:23 PM , Rating: 3
I just read that post and it sounds horrible. My apologies Ringold.


RE: I don't get it...
By Ringold on 6/18/2007 10:45:45 PM , Rating: 2
That's alright. It's easy for everybody to get nasty on the good old intarweb. One of my best friends is a true-blue straight-ticket Democrat, we actually do get along pretty grand. I'll say something about politics, he'll shake his head. He'll say something and I'll shake mine. Then up with a round of beer and a round of Supreme Commander and all is fine.


RE: I don't get it...
By brandonmichael on 6/19/2007 4:49:00 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah... Its tough. You and Michael are two really powerful debaters and its easy to get hot when you get your ass handed to you.

And I reread your earlier post and about why Michael writes and I think I agree with you Ringold
At first I thought that Michael was merely writing his blog to be sensational and inflammatory, but having a few persuasive, informed contrary opinions has really forced me to examine this issue, which was a closed book for me... I had stopped questioning the conclusion before I had even started.
So I'm glad Masher blogs here and I'm glad you post here and that so many intelligent people are down in the trenches getting to the bottom of this issue...

Alright, huggy time is over. LETS GET IT ON!


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/20/2007 1:36:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Then up with a round of beer and a round of Supreme Commander and all is fine.

Is that the game where the Supreme Commander's strings are controlled by a draft dodger?


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/21/2007 9:36:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Alright, look. Your claims that I am spreading propaganda really dont carry allot of weight considering the fact that I hear you spout the most McCarthy-ist hateful inflammatory nonsense in a majority of your posts.

Not this part, its quite well analyzed.


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/18/2007 10:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
> you mostly come across as an xenophobic hillbilly asshole

When you sink to this level, you lose the debate instantly. Sorry pal.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/20/2007 1:32:44 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
At any rate, I've picked up on much more subtle forms of propaganda than that, you'll have to try a lot harder. :) Trying to make the environmentalists credibility look better by comparing it to anybody elses credibility doesn't change the fact that the credibility still is dismal.

The same applies to MAsher.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/20/2007 1:41:09 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
we're a pretty jaded population because we have been lied to so many times.

You mean it's got nothing to do with politicans waiting for more well funded lobbyists to ring their doorbell?

You learn something new everyday.


RE: I don't get it...
By Hawkido on 6/21/2007 2:45:55 PM , Rating: 2
Don't be a Doofus,

Just listen for a sec, Please.

During the early 80's, when everyone was worried about the Impending Ice Age (Enviral Scare Tactics, seem familiar?), where were the Oil funded scientists proclaiming "Thank God for the Big Oil Companies!!! They will save us from this icy hell!" Oh, there weren't any... Hrmm. Actually i believe industrialization was the villian then as well. The cards have been dealt envirmentalists look to the left and then to the right. That's funny, enviromentalists doen't see the sucker.

Politicians are using "unsubstantiated science" (also know as a grade school guess) to sway the masses. To buy the votes with fear. To urge the gullible to give their cash to them so they "can do what's right for the envirment"

The best thing you can do for the envirment is make use of it. Starvation is not only natural, it is extremely common in the natural wild. Enviromentalists want us to go back to the "Natural Past" where plagues and diseases kill 25% of the population, starvation holds a 20% attrition on all life. Predators claim 40% of the remaining. All in all Each life form will live just long enough to give birth to enough offspring that after all the death the population will remain the same. Life spans will not be much over 25 or 30 years.

Sounds horrific to me. I think the enviromentalists watched dances with wolves too many times. That was fiction.

"We cannot sell the land, the land belongs to the Tribe."

BTW Tribe is another word for Corporation. Try this quote on for size:

"We cannot sell the land, the land belongs to the Corporation ."

Doesn't sound all leather-pants-cozy does it?


RE: I don't get it...
By Lightning III on 6/19/2007 1:20:36 PM , Rating: 2
Exxon cuts ties to global warming skeptics

I guess this makes pork pie dung filled

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16593606/


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/19/2007 2:04:40 PM , Rating: 2
Not in any way, shape, or form. So, Exxon gave a few hundred grand to an advocacy group that believes that big givernment is a bad idea. Big deal. The group used the money to put out its newsletter and fund a few symposiums. You act like they were bribing politicians and paying scientists to falsify research.

Meanwhile in other news, environmental organizations, corporations which benefit from the global warming scares (ConAgra, anyone?) and even our own government continue to donate over ten thousands times as much each year to groups on the other side of the fence, and no one bats an eye.

I bet you don't see a problem with that either, do you?


RE: I don't get it...
By Lightning III on 6/19/2007 3:00:33 PM , Rating: 1
ARE YOU IN AUSTRALIA SOME WHERE

to say the US government is funding global warming advocacy groups is like saying monkey's are flying out my ass

its just not true

at least not with the current administration

the direct parallel is the big tobacco funded studies to say smoking doesn't cause cancer

a few hundred grand try millions to anyone who would support their position and to multiple groups not some guy in his basement with a mimeograph machine like you imply

when you Google conAgra all you get is their peanut butter recall

the word is funding groups not donating to if you fund it your paying for it

and how do you justify twisting limiting regulation for an industry to they are against big government

are you running things through a translation program or are you just using rose colored glasses

to support your position

no I do see a problem when any govt tries to spin science for their own ends

like the current administration has repeatedly attempted to do over and over again

the only time to my knowledge they have admitted they were wrong on anything at all is global warming

as far as i can tell

so the attack on logic shifts to is it man made or would it happen anyway

because the root is they want to maximize profits in the industrial sector and pollution controls hamper that

shrinking CEO bonuses something awful cutting into record profits

environmentalist's are the devil

lets demonize anyone who wants clean air & water and prefers green to concrete

as for living in cave or bombed back to the stone age give me a break that shit ain't gonna fly nor should you strain all three of those brain cells worrying about it

i lump them with the religious freaks who think steward of the earth mean use up as fast as physically possible after all the end of days is coming according to them and gods gonna want to know why we wasted his gift

but your definitely a kindred spirit of Mr Asher maybe you'll can hold hands and sing kumbayaa together


RE: I don't get it...
By porkpie on 6/19/2007 3:36:33 PM , Rating: 2
Google Archer Daniels Midland, and their funding of enviromentalists opposed to MTBE and for ethanol-based fuels. Sure enough, they got the ban they wanted...and their sales are soaring as a result.

In Exxon's case, you're still ignoring the point. What did this group do with the tiny grant they received? They used it to get information out. To spread the word. That's a right in our free society, and you should remember it. They didn't bribe anyone, they didn't stand in front of bulldozers, spike trees, mail death threats, or break in and trash an office, like so many environmental activists do. All they did is mail some newsletters, run a website, and invite some people to give speeches. Big whup. Why are you so scared of their point of view being heard?

You obviously have the attitude that anything a big company does is inherently evil, and must be instinctively blocked without thought. I won't change your attitude obviously, but you really should stop and take a break sometimes, and consider your own words. The corporation is an invention, and an extremely important one to modern society. Fact is, we could not function without them.

Try looking at any country that followed your point of view and banned evil corporations and took them over "for the good of the people". See what happened to their economy, their standard of living, and (eventually) their civil liberties. Its not a pretty picture.


RE: I don't get it...
By Lightning III on 6/19/2007 3:59:18 PM , Rating: 2
I hear you but were the pioneers here

there has to be balance something other than a corporate run state

they have proven time and time again profit is their god and they need a framework to work within to keep abuse down because nobody has deeper pockets than them and to much of the government is for sale in this country

the articles are 50/50 about MTBE wonderful in cars bad in the water table

and as for spiking trees and death threats please isolated case's

where is the bursting at the seems environmental prisoners

ooh they are reserved for the polluters aren't they

there 10 polluters for every activist in jail

you got your nuts too just like we do sanity is somewhere in the middle

the Archer Daniels corp is a good example it is the cornerstone of most green mutual funds



RE: I don't get it...
By Ringold on 6/18/2007 5:46:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've heard this argument allot and never seen any supporting data...


Easy to see when you've got the blinders on. Check the number of dollars poured in to climate science in, say, 1985 or even 1990, and compare that to the number today. Even in academics, money attracts researchers looking to make a living like moths to a flame just like government subsidies attract unprofitable businesses hoping to live off government cheese. The subsidies poured on "alternative energy" companies, additionally, have a HUGE, as in existential, stake in the success of global warming paranoia.

Speaking of companies, that's the other half the equation. Major utilities, major energy firms, and new startups around the world are making multi-billion dollar bets on energy scarcity combined with global warming paranoia and the likely CO2 caps or CO2 taxes that will go along with them. Whole sub-industries would crash and burn tomorrow if the worlds population began to seriously doubt a causal relationship between the activities of man and global climate change. These are companies like Evergreen Solar, Pacific Ethanol, and large divisions of BP and General Electric that stand to make billions in profit as CO2 restrictions go in to place, not to mention the likes of Shaw Group (nuclear power) or any of the smaller companies that provide parts or services to the bigger players.

In fact, one of the very few firms I can even think of that doesn't have a bet on the table that would profit from a gradually increasing level of global warming paranoia is Exxon Mobil, who sold off its solar panel business decades ago realizing it wasn't (at the time or now if not for subsidies) a profitable business.

Do you honestly think these billions of dollars don't influence where research money goes? There's just a lot more riding on the success of global warming than against it, simple as that. Not that a lot of people in business seem to believe in GW themselves but money is money and if they can make money off liberals they don't care in the least.


RE: I don't get it...
By BMFPitt on 6/19/2007 12:15:17 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
The subsidies poured on "alternative energy" companies, additionally, have a HUGE, as in existential, stake in the success of global warming paranoia.
If global warming were thoroughly disproven tomorrow, I would still support technology that gets us off of oil to the extent possible. It's not getting any cheaper, and I'd love to be able to throw the House of Saud under the bus.


RE: I don't get it...
By Ringold on 6/19/2007 1:30:59 PM , Rating: 2
Absolutely! No disagreement there. Energy security and global warming does go about it in two entirely different ways, however. One would have us drop as much fossil fuel usage as possible at the highest cost we can tolerate, the other would gladly ditch oil tomorrow -- for a mountain full of coal.

They can overlap, though; I'm glad some Dem's (Obama has backed off some) are warming to clean-coal tech.


RE: I don't get it...
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 6/19/2007 4:39:11 PM , Rating: 2
I had the opportunity about 3 months ago to get a few questions in to fellow Chicagoan Obama. I gave him a few questions regarding Kyoto, Zero-Emission Coal and Nuclear Power. He declined to comment on all of them. :(


RE: I don't get it...
By TomZ on 6/19/2007 6:18:30 PM , Rating: 2
A smart politician will commit to nothing, but ask you to support him anyway.

How could a Democratic presidential candidate not have any position on any of these topics?!? Unbelieveable.


RE: I don't get it...
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 6/20/2007 12:39:40 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sure he has opinions on the topics -- I think he's just playing his cards close right now.


RE: I don't get it...
By TheGreek on 6/21/2007 9:38:34 AM , Rating: 2
Well nobody wants to be burned as a witch.


RE: I don't get it...
By grenableu on 6/19/2007 11:19:02 AM , Rating: 2
You think the environmentalists just want us to "change our use of oil" a little bit? It goes way beyond that. Here's a news out just today. The Sierra Club is advocating "cohousing" to solve global warming. What is cohousing? It's a large apartment complex, where everyone shares a common kitchen and meals, shared laundry rooms and tvs, even shared childcare.

In other words, its a commune-- 2007 style.

http://senior-spectrum.com/news02_061907/


RE: I don't get it...
By Ringold on 6/19/2007 1:33:06 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like Soviet Russia and current-day China (for the city-dwelling underclass) to me.


RE: I don't get it...
By SeanMI on 6/18/2007 4:48:20 PM , Rating: 2
Woah woah woah...believe? BELIEVE? It doesn't matter what he believes. The ONLY thing that matters is the scientific evidence. I would expect any reasonable person to change their reports regarding what they "believe" when presented with new information (fact or otherwise). If he wasn't objective he would have maintained a constant "belief" regardless of the evidence presented.

Having said that, I personally don't think anyone can be completely objective. In the back of his mind I think he mostly has a problem with the alarmists who rant and rave we'll be dead in a decade. This has led to articles that primarly refute or otherwise diminish the overly apocalyptic nature of said alarmists attitudes.


RE: I don't get it...
Who Cares?
By Terberculosis on 6/18/2007 1:00:41 PM , Rating: 3
Ocean Temperatures were at least 12 degrees warmer in the early Miocene, less than 15 million years ago. We didn't have two permanent ice caps until about 5 million years ago, What does it matter? There are no negative effects from global warming. Why argue about it. If it is happening, it will be good for us, if it isn't then it isn't happening. Grow up and argue about something worthwhile, like the next season of American Idol.




RE: Who Cares?
By Ringold on 6/18/2007 1:22:27 PM , Rating: 2
There would be *some* downside to true global warming, clearly. But given the relatively small impact on global GDP growth that even the alarmist IPCC politicians kick out.. it's not exactly the end of the world. I'd wager nationalizing WalMart would in fact have a larger long-term negative impact on global GDP growth than would unrestrained global warming based on IPCC's figures, given all the estimated consumer price inflation WalMart has proven to of shaven off US CPI figures over the last decade.


RE: Who Cares?
By porkpie on 6/18/2007 1:30:45 PM , Rating: 2
Don't forget that warming means longer growing seasons, lower energy use from heating, less crop losses from cold snaps and freezes, and many other pluses. There's also the very real possibility that it means fewer storms and less violent weather. Global warming could actually wind up a plus to global GDP growth.


RE: Who Cares?
By TheGreek on 6/20/07, Rating: 0
RE: Who Cares?
By TomZ on 6/20/2007 2:53:07 PM , Rating: 2
Well, considering what is being discussed is extrapolating a trend into the future and contemplating what could happen, what kind of scientific evidence would you expect?

I think what was stated is pretty logical. What part do you have a problem with exactly?


RE: Who Cares?
By TheGreek on 6/21/2007 9:41:48 AM , Rating: 2
If an unscientific conclusion can't count on one side of the discussion it certainly can't count on the other side. You can't have 2 sets of rules and have a reasonable discussion.


RE: Who Cares?
By TomZ on 6/21/2007 2:52:34 PM , Rating: 2
With the GW debate, extrapolation is fine, once you are able to show some link between CO2 and global warming. Then based on that, you can rightfully extrapolate that higher CO2 may lead to more global warming. And the problem is that the basic relationship is not established based on scientific data.

Also, I think some basic things are being challenged, like warmer temperatures leading to a longer growing season. Not exactly controversial, is it? We have plenty of history to look back on to support this.


RE: Who Cares?
By Rovemelt on 6/18/2007 2:27:24 PM , Rating: 2
It matters because the rate of temperature change is fast enough that it will kill off a lot of species and habitat that humans depend on. If temperatures rise 12 degrees, the bulk of Greenland will be melted and southern Florida will be under water along with many other heavily populated areas around the planet. This would be devastating to the economy.

Heat deaths around the globe will rise (much like the recent european summer when thousands of elderly died due to heat exhaustion from a heat wave.) Although these predictions are prone to error, some show the central US falling to drought (there is drought out west right now, but it's not necessarily linked to global climate change).

Yes, millions of years ago the atmosphere was different. At one point, it had much, much higher CO2 levels. But the planet would also have been uninhabitable to humans.

Hey, the planet will still be here if we cook it and life will continue. However, it probably won't be a fun thing to live through.


RE: Who Cares?
By porkpie on 6/18/2007 2:41:48 PM , Rating: 2
> Heat deaths around the globe will rise...

Many more people die from cold and cold-related illnesses than from heat. And "global warming" means the coldest parts of the planets warm up the most-- the tropics are not warming at all. If global warming is happening, it means LESS deaths from temperature extremes. Not more.

> If temperatures rise 12 degrees.

The IPCC is predicting a 1 to 3 degree rise over the next 100 years.

> Greenland will be melted

Greenland is melting at 0.25% per century, the same rate its been doing for at least the past 300 years.

> At one point, it had much, much higher CO2 levels. But the planet would also have been uninhabitable to humans.

Are you joking with this? CO2 levels were once at 3000ppm (almost ten times the current level). But CO2 only becomes dangerous at above 300,000 ppm -- a HUNDRED times higher than that.