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Last Monday Jim Sikes came to a stop after his Prius went on a 90 mph joy ride down California highways. He claims that his Prius's acceleration was unintentional.  (Source: CNN.com)

Jim Sikes has had financial problems over the last few years and is retaining an attorney. Early investigation is revealing inconsistencies in Mr. Sikes' story, raising questions over whether the incident was faked.  (Source: CNN.com)
Jim Sikes' wild story of unintentional acceleration has been brought into question

Was Jim Sikes' wild runaway Prius adventure a scam? The investigation of the alleged unintended acceleration of Mr. Sikes' 2008 Toyota Prius hybrid vehicle, which blasted by California motorists last Monday is ongoing, but evidence is mounting that Sikes may have faked the incident.  Sikes filed bankruptcy two years ago, with over $700,000 in debt.

While Sikes claims that he is seeking no money from Toyota, he's been attracting big attention with press conferences and has retained a lawyer, John Gomez.  And according to The Detroit News, officials with the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)  and Toyota investigators were unable to replicate the incident while driving the 2008 Prius at high speeds and accelerating up and down.

Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., the ranking member of House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform which is investigating Toyota, stated, "These findings certainly raise new questions surrounding the veracity of the sequence of events that has been reported by Mr. Sykes. In the course of this investigation, we have seen what can happen when people take liberty with facts and mischaracterize information."

A draft memo from Toyota and NHTSA investigators state, "On our test drive, the field technician tried to duplicate the same experience that Mr. Sikes experienced. After about 2 hours of driving he was unsuccessful."

David Jusko, a Toyota Motor Sales USA employee and expert on hybrids says such acceleration is mechanically impossible.  He states, "So, in this case, knowing that we are able to push the car around the shop, it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time."

The 2008 Prius is designed to override all commands and stop when the brake pedal and gas pedal are both fully pressed.  Failing to do so would result in the car seizing, say experts at Toyota.  Also, Mr. Sikes should have been able to put the car into neutral and coast to a stop.  Reports have conflicted over whether Mr. Sikes claims to have tried such a maneuver.

The report did note that the brakes were very worn, commenting, "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left."

However, the wear wasn't consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, The Wall Street Journal wrote Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe.

Sikes, meanwhile, claims he is an innocent victim of a defective product.  He says that his family has suffered since the incident, receiving death threats.  States Mrs. Sikes, "We're just fed up with all of it. Our careers are ruined and life is just not good anymore."

Even if the incident was found to be a scam, it leaves many unanswered questions for Toyota.  In total, the company has recalled 8.5 million vehicles.  The NHTSA has received 3,300 complaints and allegations of 52 deaths linked to Toyota vehicles since 2000.



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Loose nut on the controls
By bildan on 3/15/2010 11:15:53 AM , Rating: 5
Un-commanded acceleration stories go way back before electronics made its way under the hood. It seems every decade has a "My car ran away with me" media frenzy.

Back in WWII they had a phrase for it; "Loose Nut on the Controls" meaning human error. In the case of cars it meant specifically that the driver had a foot on the accelerator when it was supposed to be on the brake.

It has never happened. No car has ever run away with its driver. Drivers are idiots.

Even if it did, the ignition switch will always turn off the engine and the transmission can always be shifted into neutral. There are three separate braking systems - at least one of them will work.




RE: Loose nut on the controls
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/10, Rating: 0
RE: Loose nut on the controls
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 11:37:01 AM , Rating: 5
You miss the OP's point..and an excellent point it is, too. What began as a slight, very rare, potential issue (Toyota floormats slipping to the point they might jam an accelerator) has now become a media phenomenon, feeding off its own frenzy. Now, and for the next five years, every single accident involving a Toyota, someone is going to raise the spectre of 'unintended acceleration'.

The OP merely gives us a very valuable historical precedent. Unfortunately, you're also giving us one-- that people cannot learn from the lessons of history.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By theapparition on 3/15/2010 12:00:05 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
What began as a slight, very rare, potential issue (Toyota floor mats slipping to the point they might jam an accelerator)

Sorry, but you're wrong on this issue.

You mentioned "slipping mats" as the culprit, but Toyota now concludes that it is a faulty pedal. It is unclear if the mats ever had anything to do with the problem. Clearly, they have an issue and have known about it for some time.

Additionally, the crux of the congressional investigation is not that there are any recall issues, it is that Toyota had long term knowledge of unintended acceleration issues, with possible resolutions, and did not inform the NHTSB, which they are required to do by law. Next up for Toyota is their alleged destruction of evidence regarding rollovers.

Fair or not, yes this is a media blitz. It was the same with Ford/Firestone and many others. Unfortunately, society is mostly lemmings. But the news media doesn't publish this because they are out to get Toyota, it's because hot headlines sell.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 12:08:05 PM , Rating: 2
"Sorry, but you're wrong on this issue."

You say that, then agree with me that it's a media-fed frenzy?

I'm not sure exactly what you believe was wrong in my statement. Yes, it did begin as a floor mat issue and (as of testimony before Congress as of last month) floor mats are still implicated. A second problem has been found with gas pedal assemblies.

So far, quite a few people have come forward with anecdotal claims of possible electronic issues causing unintended acceleration, but not one of these has yet been verified. And I could be wrong, but I strongly doubt they will.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 12:41:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You say that, then agree with me that it's a media-fed frenzy?

Yes, it's a media frenzy. No, it's not JUST a media frenzy. And VERY no, it's not (just) floor mats.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By jconan on 3/16/2010 2:58:51 AM , Rating: 2
had the same issue with the f250 a couple of times, when depressing the accelerator it wouldn't let go until i yanked the floor mat back.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By Nutzo on 3/15/2010 12:44:52 PM , Rating: 2
The Ford Firestone issue was way overblown by the media. I owned an Explorer, and I had a rear tire flat on two seperate times while driving on the freeway (at freeway+ speeds). Never had a problem pulling over or off the freeway.

The recall was nice, since they paid to replace my cheap worn out Firestone tires with much better/expensive brand new tires. Saved me $400.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By mindless1 on 3/15/2010 4:02:22 PM , Rating: 2
You seem to fail to appreciate the difference between a rear flat and a front flat. You can drive quite a ways on a flat rear but once your front compromises steering you may flip pretty easily on a curve.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By plowak on 3/17/2010 12:29:49 PM , Rating: 2
Yes a front flat will compromise steering, but this can be corrected for by steering compensation. No compensation is available for a rear flat. For this reason, as a young man, I was always advised to put your best tires on the rear if you had to make that choice (back in the day when we had to make those kind of choices).


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 1:04:13 PM , Rating: 2
"has now become a media phenomenon, feeding off its own frenzy."
Nail, hammer, head. We have a winner. It looks to me like Toyota has become a whipping boy. BTW, I own a Toyota, had no issues with it since 2003.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By madoka on 3/15/2010 12:50:38 PM , Rating: 5
No, Audi never did have a problem. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the ones that prompted the 60 Minutes report, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By The Raven on 3/15/2010 1:04:58 PM , Rating: 2
It looks like he was referencing the fact that people make up these stories (either bald-face lies or sincere belief) and the media blows it out of proportion or doesn't get the real facts, car companies have to deal with it.

And this happens decade after decade.

From your statement, I don't think you understand what the problem was with Audi.

Read some stuff and get back to us. Try starting with this. It addresses both the media and the physics: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-best-of-ttac-...


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 1:19:31 PM , Rating: 2
I do understand the problem with Audi and I have owned several. A 4000 Quattro and an 1986 TQ and I never had this problem. I only wanted to point out that Toyota isn't alone in this blame game. Audi spent a butt load of money trying to "fix" this "problem".
"the media blows it out of proportion or doesn't get the real facts, car companies have to deal with it."
I agree with this statement.


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By The Raven on 3/15/2010 2:15:47 PM , Rating: 2
Well then I think you completely missed the OP's point, because when he said this happens "every decade" he obviously was talking about Audi among others.

Then you said:
quote:
Really? So, Audi never had this problem?


You were implying that Audi was rightfully raked over the coals of financial ruin. But as long as you don't think Audi made defective cars then we are in agreement. You drive your Quattro and I can drive my Corolla and we all live happily ever after. Well...after we sue the media machine that has devalued our cars, that is. lol


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 3:11:15 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds good to me but I only have a Toyota now. :)


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By The Raven on 3/16/2010 3:15:43 PM , Rating: 2
We still both have devalued cars. So we really

Thank you sensationalist media and corrupt gov't!!!


RE: Loose nut on the controls
By Solandri on 3/15/2010 7:13:57 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Really? So, Audi never had this problem? I'm sure they're relieved after spending millions for no reason.

No, they never had a mechanical problem. Just a bunch of owners swearing their foot was jammed on the brake when the car took off.

Their fix was to lock the gear shift into park. If you want to move it out of park, you have to first press down on the brake. After they implemented this, the incident rate plummeted, indicating most if not all of the cases were indeed pedal misapplication. All the other auto manufacturers then did the same thing, just so they couldn't get sued for similar pedal misapplication incidents and risk a naive jury might giving the driver's impassioned testimony more weight than hours of expert testimony explaining why it's mechanically impossible.

And frankly, I've accidentally done this myself. I was wearing hiking boots so couldn't really feel the pedals. I thought I had my foot on the brake but the car wouldn't shift out of park. I looked down and my foot had slipped off the corner of the brake pedal, and the resistance I was feeling was from the accelerator. The extra height of the boots tricked me into thinking my foot was at the right distance for the brake, but not the accelerator.


Car and Driver Investigation
By spwrozek on 3/15/2010 11:04:18 AM , Rating: 3
I do not understand how people can be so dumb. The brakes should still stop the car even with the throttle full open. Also if you shift into neutral you can coast to a stop.

Here is the car and driver report on the tests they did. Shows that the whole problem is easily overcome.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_d...




RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By Iaiken on 3/15/2010 11:15:55 AM , Rating: 5
Yes, but the car and driver test is flawed... They forgot one key component in all these events: Idiots, and LOTS of them.


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By spwrozek on 3/15/2010 11:26:47 AM , Rating: 2
Oh I agree with you. Just wanted to point out that even with the throttle problem the car can be stopped rather easily.


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By Vagisil on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By jimbojimbo on 3/15/2010 12:47:21 PM , Rating: 4
Darwin award.


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By The Raven on 3/15/2010 12:48:04 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry. I searched for this and I'm coming up with nothing. Can you link the story? Thank you.


By DiscipleOfKane on 3/15/2010 1:36:23 PM , Rating: 2
I would have thought it would be headline news in the UK as well, but I don't remember hearing a thing about it.


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By Iaiken on 3/15/2010 1:48:36 PM , Rating: 3
Even if this DID happen. The guy probably deserved it for being a dumb prat. EVERY automatic that I have ever driven can be shifted into neutral by simply pushing the selector forward. At that point, you can simply apply the brakes until you complete your stop, put it in park and turn it off.

Seriously, if you are going to proceed with hurtling down the road in a machine, have a clue as to how to operate it in all conditions. For most people, a simple tarmac course is enough to learn emergency maneuvers and driving in adverse conditions. It's not expensive, the only requirement is that you not be lazy and/or stupid.


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 5:13:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Seriously, if you are going to proceed with hurtling down the road in a machine, have a clue as to how to operate it in all conditions.

That sounds like responsibility. Most people are allergic to it. Are you really that heartless?


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By gsellis on 3/17/2010 2:01:50 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, the Tennessee case shows that Toyota built the exception.

Christine lives...

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223...


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By jimbo2779 on 3/16/2010 5:43:27 AM , Rating: 3
This is total bunkum. For starters this was never on any news I saw or read. I cannot find anything about this incident or anything like it.

Also inconsitencies in your story make you hard to believe, for instance we don't have "intersections" here we have junctions.

I don't really know why some people feel the need to make stuff up on the internet but then I also don't know why anyone would want to have the handle of vagisil either


RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By plowak on 3/17/10, Rating: 0
RE: Car and Driver Investigation
By cmdrdredd on 3/16/2010 4:09:50 PM , Rating: 2
Because of the computer controlled transmission system you cannot just shift to neutral like a normal vehicle. Hybrids are different.

The plain fact is the highway patrol had an officer on the scene, the guy CALLED 911 ON HIMSELF, the officer instructed the guy over loud speaker and smelled the brakes burning up, the brakes are burnt up metal to metal at this point, the guy was seen literally lifting himself out of the seat to "stand" on the brake and the car did not slow on it's own power.

Clearly there is a problem with the car. Toyota is trying to save its ass here and it's quite frankly pathetic. Now they claim the guy had financial problems? That has NOTHING to do with the incident. Toyota, like all Japanese companies are very shady business practitioners. Never admit fault because you'll look bad to your peers. If they were smart they'd replace the guys car and tell him to have a nice day and never see him again. They got caught in blatant lies by the government and are trying to weesle out of it.


I support Toyota's Darwinian efforts
By Hieyeck on 3/15/2010 12:13:14 PM , Rating: 5
This is in fact a ploy by Toyota to weed out the world's idiots too dumb to shift to neutral. Let them all crash and burn. Actually, make it a feature in all new cars, it'll definitely be the greener choice and take idiots off the road - permanently. Get behind this Mick, sustainable driving practices.




RE: I support Toyota's Darwinian efforts
By tng on 3/15/2010 12:57:25 PM , Rating: 5
I agree here. I have a coworker that has a Prius.

He said that the amount of notice that Toyota went to on making sure that he knew how to stop the car if there was an acceleration incident was overboard.

He got 2 letters from Toyota (one from the dealer, one from Toyota corporate) that explained in detail that all you had to do was to hold the power button down for 3 seconds. Then he got phone calls as well from real people who explained the same thing.

Anybody at this point who crashes because of this just isn't smart.

Also the Audi incidents in the 80's were finally blamed on what the NHTSB called "Pedal Missaplication", in other words they pushed the gas when they wanted the brakes.

For all of you people who pile on the bandwagon against Toyota, if you start doing reasearch, GM since 2000 has had 10 times more incidents of this than all of the Toyotas combined.


By zsdersw on 3/15/2010 1:33:08 PM , Rating: 1
Toyota is rightly having an image correction, though.. idiots and legitimate complaints notwithstanding. Their vehicles are not worth the reputation as being supreme in terms of quality.


By gsellis on 3/17/2010 2:04:55 PM , Rating: 2
This assumes that the system behaves as designed. Unfortunately, Toyota does not seem to understand the need for error handling in critical systems.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223...


By siuol11 on 3/15/2010 11:45:13 AM , Rating: 2
Rep. Darrell Issa is not to be trusted on this issue.
http://blogs.laweekly.com/ladaily/community/crazy-...




By The Raven on 3/15/2010 1:30:39 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that Issa is not to be trusted... but that is beside the point. This post says that he gets contributions from the entire auto industry. So what does he care if it is Toyota?

And speaking of trust... who trusts an LA Weekly blog post for such an issue?


By whiskerwill on 3/15/2010 1:34:43 PM , Rating: 3
LA Weekly is a tabloid sure. But ever since the LA Times knowingly played along with the Schwarzennegger sex scandal scam to try to keep Gray Davis in office, I've learned not to trust ANY newspaper in the city.


By The Raven on 3/15/2010 2:05:28 PM , Rating: 2
Let me just say that you should never blindly trust a news source (or a car manufacture for that matter). But to grab a story from LA Weekly...and then blindly trust them?! Which is worse?


By siuol11 on 3/15/2010 5:30:31 PM , Rating: 2
There are other news outlets reporting on this. "Blindingly trusting" is a bit of a stretch, either they are making up the facts or they aren't. In this case, they aren't.


By porkpie on 3/15/2010 10:51:57 PM , Rating: 1
Lol, what "facts" are there to make up? A politician who receives donations from the auto industry (including Toyota's competitors) says this Prius owner may not be trustworthy. Wow, big scandal there.

COMMON SENSE says this Prius owner is a scam artist. Find me a blog that sense common sense is lying, and you'll have something.


IMHO, guy is a liar
By madoka on 3/15/2010 12:44:23 PM , Rating: 5
His background: Bankrupt real estate salesman. Owes $700,000 in debt and $70,000 on credit cards. Is 5 months behind on Prius car payments. Has filed false charges previously.

The incident: REFUSED to shift into neutral even though instructed to several times. Drove 90+ MPH for over 20 minutes through traffic? Still somehow managed to talk on the phone with 911 during that time, drop his phone twice, and tried to lift up the accelator with his hands? Go into your parked car and see if you can reach the accelerator without taking your eyes off the windshield. Now imagine trying to do that while driving 90+ MPH through traffic. And oh yeah, his model Prius happens to have a brake override feature. I guess he didn't research his scam enough.

Now he claims he's not in it for the money and won't sue Toyota. Yet he's retained a lawyer who is already suing Toyota for the fatal crash involving incorrect floor mats.

Edmunds calls it BS:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...f-control.h...

Forbes calls it a hoax:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toy...l-fumento.h...

His former business partner calls him a scammer:

http://jalopnik.com/5492199/exclusiv...iver-a-scam...




RE: IMHO, guy is a liar
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 12:55:30 PM , Rating: 2
Good research. Nice post.


RE: IMHO, guy is a liar
By clovell on 3/15/2010 3:17:10 PM , Rating: 2
All that debt should have been discharged in bankruptcy. You're saying he's in bankruptcy again?


RE: IMHO, guy is a liar
By Mojo the Monkey on 3/15/2010 6:55:08 PM , Rating: 2
He recently filed a (probably false) police report that he was burglarized and that all kinds of things were taken, including 25K in cash.

I posted that above. He is either angling to get an insurance reimbursement or a tax write off. You dont have 25K in CASH lying around and not make your car payments.


Follow the money
By bildan on 3/15/2010 11:21:08 AM , Rating: 2
So, who benefits from this story and who loses?

Obviously, Toyota loses. US automakers win and maybe there will be lawsuits so lawyers win.

One big potential winner is the US government who is the majority stockholder in GM. Can the investigators be be impartial?




RE: Follow the money
By The Raven on 3/15/2010 1:38:30 PM , Rating: 2
It's funny how you said "the US government" and not "US taxpayers". It's funny because it's true.

We will never see any of that money again regardless of GM profits.


RE: Follow the money
By whiskerwill on 3/15/2010 1:40:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
One big potential winner is the US government who is the majority stockholder in GM. Can the investigators be be impartial?
I'm sorry you got rated down. This is a very important point that many other people have already pointed out. The whole Congressional Hearing thing going on is just a circus.


90?
By FangedRabbit on 3/15/2010 11:29:19 AM , Rating: 1
The hardest thing for me to believe is that he got a prius above 90!




RE: 90?
By theapparition on 3/15/2010 12:01:14 PM , Rating: 3
This incident only happened a few days ago and already that joke is played out.


RE: 90?
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 12:43:03 PM , Rating: 2
The joke was played out before this happened, thanks to Al Gore's kid playing Green Racer some time back...


By CZroe on 3/15/2010 2:31:06 PM , Rating: 2
I've been saying this to my friends, families, and coworkers since day one, out-right criticizing the news papers and TV reports and how they presented it (this HAPPENED, he DID this, it DID that, and so one). I said all along that there is no way this was real and that this man just wanted to be paid. This is the first time I have ever even heard of anyone else suspecting him of lying, though I stopped reading and watching the news about it days ago.

Basically, there's no way he didn't know what the recall was about when he lives in the city that so dramatically brought it to the world's attention. The whole story about not turning off the ignition "because he didn't want to lose control" was BS. If what you are saying is true, you already lost acceleration control and any OTHER attempt to fight it without killing the ignition is likely to cause you to lose control! The idiot just didn't have a better excuse. The reason the Santee/San Diego crash killed that officer and others when he couldn't kill the ignition was because it was A) Keyless ignition and B) a loaner car, thus, the operator was unfamiliar with keyless ignition and how to stop it in an emergency... NOT because killing the ignition at high-speed would cause a loss of control.

Losing power steering at 94MPH is not as bad as it seems when you are intending to stop ASAP.




By CZroe on 3/15/2010 2:39:57 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and I've had unintended acceleration in an '81 Toyota Celica, but it was due to gummed up/kinked cables, for what that's worth.

I put it into neutral, shut off the ignition to stop the insane racing engine, opened the hood, wiggled it until it popped back, and continued on with a mental note to lubricate it or have it replaced ASAP. I was 19yo with NO mechanical experience. This car did have a problem where the key could fall out of the ignition while the engine was still running. In fact, often-times I would instinctively slide the key out as I was turning it off and the ignition would remain in the accessory position instead of "off." I could then turn it with anything to start the car. When I figured this out, I'd psych out my friends by using my mother's Honda key to open the door (it was almost the same but longer with a similar tip) and a spoon to start the car. :D

I'm NOT lyin'


Someone is lying:
By btc909 on 3/15/2010 3:28:37 PM , Rating: 2
:Either Sykes or Toyoda. When I test drove an 09 Camry Hybrid & just like Sykes I gave it some gas to see if the Hybrid had any pick up the car kept going like the cruise control was set. I checked no, pressed the brakes which would have turned off the cruise, mind you my foot was off the gas pedal, pressed the brakes hard, it just slightly slowed the acceleration down, pumped the gas pedal, no, I ended up sticking my right toe under the gas pedal & the car was back to normal. The floormats were turned upside down so they look pretty for the sucker, I mean buyer. Can I say it was the floormats, I'm not sure. No I didn't buy the car.

I will say Sykes wasn't lying & the computer wigged out.




RE: Someone is lying:
By Fritzr on 3/15/2010 9:59:47 PM , Rating: 2
You put your foot under the pedal and lifted it up. This proves that on a different car it was the computer and not a stuck pedal?????


Software control - how reliable can it be?
By brumbrum on 3/16/2010 3:47:04 PM , Rating: 2
Most posters are keen to condemn the driver and defend Toyota. Being that people have been killed or seriously injured in similar incidents and given the number of such incidents the onus must be on Toyota to clearly demonstrate in an open and auditable way that their cars are safe.

The Prius is an exceptional car in that it is heavily dependent on software and electronic control. It is not conventional in many ways, even the start/stop button is merely an electronic button in the same way as your power button is on your computer. If the electronic systems on the Prius crashed or locked up in an unforeseen manner, it is quite feasible that all control would be lost or severely compromised including braking (which is a 2 stage electronically controlled system - regenerative/friction).

Have you ever had your computer lock up, and even the power button didnt work? I know I have - not often - but it does happen. Why? Who knows - maybe software, maybe a hardware issue or a combination of both. Impossible to replicate and of course, the manufacturers and software vendors deny its possible......Windows crashing? never!

The problem are that Toyota are both biased and blinkered. "Independent testers" are chosen by and paid by Toyota. Are they car experts or computer experts?

Government funded bodies are likely to have little understanding of the complexities and possible failure modes of complex electronic systems.

The point is, these are comparitively rare events, possibly triggered by more than one fault or unforeseen condition occuring simultaneously. As such it will be exceedingly difficult to find and a simple 2 day test program proves nothing.

The problem is the design - it is becoming clear that its impossible to audit it in a way that it can be proven to be safe.

The solution is to engineer independent systems that are solely concerned with providing faile safe operation that can override the main systems.

Cutting the accelerator demand when the brake is applied is not a sufficient solution when it depends on all the systems and sensors working correctly...

A black box recorder would be a great tool, but would have to be entirely independent - including its sensor inputs.




By porkpie on 3/16/2010 5:09:20 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, a lot of misconceptions here. First of all (as we've already pointed out about 3 dozen times in this thread) the car wasn't just tested by Toyota, but by a government agency (the NHTSA). Also, car experts such as Edmunds and others have called BS on his story.

Regarding your computer analogy, your computer has one cpu. A Prius has several , all independent. For several systems all to fail at once, then ALL of them start working again the second the car is tested, strains the imagination beyond belief.

The CHP officer smelled burning brakes. You might think that's a point in the driver's favor, but it's just the opposite. It means the brakes were working ...but not enough to stop the vehicle?? Come again? And the brake-throttle override failed at the same time? AND the accelerator stuck at the same time? AND the independent engine off switch (again, controlled by a different chip than the other systems) failed as well? And all these things immediately began working again, without a trace?

Third, you're ignoring evidence such as the fact this man is (according to quite a few people) a well-known scammer. And that he refused to switch the engine into neutral as instructed. And that, within 24 hours of this incident, he retained an attorney who has already sued Toyota for similar incidents in the past.

Seriously, anyone who even takes this story seriously for a microsecond needs to have their own head examined. I've rarely seen a more obvious scam.


2 hour test is not evidence
By lecanard on 3/17/2010 2:59:16 AM , Rating: 2
What, do they think Toyota hasn't already invested a whopping 2 hours in testing this issue? For Pete's sake, the guy has been driving the car for two years...and they expect the issue to happen again in two hours??

That's really stupid. This is a hard to replicate bug; two hours of testing is meaningless. Two more years of testing wouldn't prove it wrong either. The bug is a RARE occurence!




RE: 2 hour test is not evidence
By The Raven on 3/17/2010 10:30:47 AM , Rating: 2
What this proves is that the guy is either lying or he unintentionally did something other than brake.

They may not be able to replicate the unintended acceleration, but by finding the heavily woren brakes they have proven that this guy should've been able to stop his car without any problem, regardless if the throttle was pinned (either physically or electronically).

So if we can't believe him about the braking, how can we believe him about an unintended acceleration or his throttle being stuck?

This doesn't rule out the possibility that there was some unintended acceleration, but based on the circumstances and stories surrounding this guy it is pretty clear that he is a liar.


Media credibility
By FXR on 3/16/2010 4:31:39 AM , Rating: 3
The larger issue as was defined by the article is what can we believe any more. Lobby groups routinely advise the way to get the ear of as politician is through a shocking news release.The media is not a charity it is funded by ad campaigns separate from the news in the form of obvious commercials, and many times as part of the broadcast news without letting the viewer in on the scam.

You are told disease levels are rising which is a natural and expected product of population growth. Or at opportune times when looking for donations, you are told how success has provided reductions of the same disease as an expression, of actual reported numbers. Both are politically true yet neither is accurate as opposing expressions of the same numbers misleads the viewer. Fear is an ad agency commodity for sale, and people filling in the gap are their own worst enemy. Fat pandemics, Flu pandemics, Climate gate, smoking ban promotions and the heavier than air freon traveling ten miles above your head to mess with the Ozone layer, are all examples of fraudulent ad agency scams, that should demand prosecutions.

The mechanical systems which control this car are mechanically, electronically and electrically independent sub systems protected in numerous ways by surface mount fuses, voltage regulators and normally open relays. Unless the car is equipped with cruise control there is no mechanical system which could possibly drag the accelerator down as he described. He claims he couldn't shift into neutral or shut off the ignition, yet he also claims he took off his seat-belt at 95MPH and tried to pull the pedal up with his hand. Give that a try in your own car. He is lying through his teeth, for financial gain. Wait for it and he will show his hand soon enough.




sudden acceleration
By icantbelieveit on 3/15/10, Rating: 0
RE: sudden acceleration
By Mojo the Monkey on 3/15/2010 7:10:41 PM , Rating: 2
no they arent.


Smarter!
By The0ne on 3/15/2010 2:51:46 PM , Rating: 2
We just need the vehicles to just be a "tad" smarter than the driver that's all. Problem solved. All the driver needs to do is just sit there and let the car drive itself, park itself and cause accidents by itself, to claim insurance, and so forth.

Seriously, we all know the star trek teleporter is just around the corner. Why worry.




Hmm...
By pizda on 3/16/2010 4:10:25 AM , Rating: 2
If the problem is very rare, I would not dismiss it if I wasn't able to replicate the problem in 2 days of testing.

I've designed, built, and driven cars (including hybrids) for a long time and can tell you that weird things happen.
Toyota's 2 main findings are:

1. On a properly functioning Prius brake overrides the gas. Ok, so what? When the car functions properly, it works. Toyota needs to show what happens when these systems don't work as planned.

2. Inconsistency of marks on the brakes... that's a load of bull. I've seen enough brake pads of cars used in various conditions and can tell you that you can sometimes tell something about how the car was being used. It's useful to gauge consistency of other data, but not very reliable by itself.

What I find very bad is that Toyota is making sensational claims to the press when they don't have a consistent string of evidence. This fact alone damages their reputation.

They should finish their investigation, come up with a plausible theory and show that this theory is consistent with all of the evidence including that of independent witnesses such as Highway Patrol.




Media credibility
By FXR on 3/16/2010 4:51:30 AM , Rating: 2
The larger issue as was defined by the article is what can we believe any more. Lobby groups routinely advise the way to get the ear of as politician is through a shocking news release.The media is not a charity it is funded by ad campaigns separate from the news in the form of obvious commercials, and many times as part of the broadcast news without letting the viewer in on the scam.

You are told disease levels are rising which is a natural and expected product of population growth. Or at opportune times when looking for donations, you are told how success has provided reductions of the same disease as an expression, of actual reported numbers. Both are politically true yet neither is accurate as opposing expressions of the same numbers misleads the viewer. Fear is an ad agency commodity for sale, and people filling in the gap are their own worst enemy. Fat pandemics, Flu pandemics, Climate gate, smoking ban promotions and the heavier than air freon traveling ten miles above your head to mess with the Ozone layer, are all examples of fraudulent ad agency scams, that should demand prosecutions.

The mechanical systems which control this car are mechanically, electronically and electrically independent sub systems protected in numerous ways by surface mount fuses, voltage regulators and normally open relays. Unless the car is equipped with cruise control there is no mechanical system which could possibly drag the accelerator down as he described. He claims he couldn't shift into neutral or shut off the ignition, yet he also claims he took off his seat-belt at 95MPH and tried to pull the pedal up with his hand. Give that a try in your own car. He is lying through his teeth, for financial gain. Wait for it and he will show his hand soon enough.




Like that never happened before...
By JDHack42 on 3/19/2010 4:19:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
On our test drive, the field technician tried to duplicate the same experience that Mr. Sikes experienced. After about 2 hours of driving he was unsuccessful.


We had an O2 sensor go bad on one of our vehicles. The dealership must have driven that thing around for a total of 4 hours. Never did it have the odd stall issue. So their tech not finding the problem after 2 hours, yeah ok...

w/e




Just amazed
By Dorkyman on 3/15/2010 7:30:25 PM , Rating: 1
I am just amazed that people are buying this idiot's story. It should be obvious to anyone with a brain that he's a scammer, hoping to land a juicy payment from Toyota to shut him up. Also, he probably figures the free publicity will be worth its weight in gold once the dust settles and he is selling real estate again.

My fear is that Obama's minions are going to try to crucify Toyota in order to help Government Motors, when in fact Toyota builds excellent cars. I don't need a new car right now, but I can emphatically state that I will NEVER buy a GM car again. I WOULD buy a Toyota, and probably will.




By Beenthere on 3/15/2010 11:38:30 PM , Rating: 1
This Sykes dude looks like he was after publicity and maybe cash. If he lied I hope they convict his arse and throw him in jail.

As far as the Toyota "unintended acceleration" the only vehicles to exhibit this issue are the ones with a sticky accelerator pedal which is a mechanical problem. Drivers who kick the floor mat under the accelerator and are unable to apply the brakes, shift into neutral or shut off the ignition - should not have a drivers license IMO.

There is absolutely no evidence to support a software or black box malfunction or that Satan is controlling these vehicles. To illustrate just how insane the situation has gotten, some folks who have had the upgraded accelerator repair are claiming their car still has "unintended acceleration". Someone needs to tell these people the brake pedal is not on the right.

The video link below pretty much sums up the real situation. WARNING : Foul Language in video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ4PtafRB9c&feature...




Huh?
By Spivonious on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Huh?
By TheDoc9 on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 11:43:04 AM , Rating: 5
As others have pointed out, the brake wear patterns indicate the drive is lying. Furthermore, it's not simply Toyota testing these vehicles. This particular Prius was tested by the NHTSA. and overseen by a House Oversight committee.

Still further, all the verified claims of Toyota acceleration problems involve mechanical issues (usually floormat related). This driver is claiming what would have to be an electronic issue...an entirely different matter.


RE: Huh?
By invidious on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 12:37:31 PM , Rating: 5
"Just because Toyota does not verify that there is a software problem does not mean there isn't a software problem"

As already repeatedly pointed out, independent and government bodies have also failed to find any systemic software or electronic issue.

"Its hard to judge this guy based on what is presented here, so I wont."

But you'll judge Toyota?

If you look at NHTSB S/A (sudden acceleration) reports over the last 30 years, you'll see reports from all vehicle markers. Toyota is right in the middle of the pack, in terms of incidents per vehicle.


RE: Huh?
By zsdersw on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Huh?
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 4:24:00 PM , Rating: 5
Then one should argue about their lack of quality, NOT make up stories that lack verification even in the face of multiple, relatively unrelated bodies looking very, very hard for it.


RE: Huh?
By TheDoc9 on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 2:51:33 PM , Rating: 5
"The article also said he's not suing, something you clearly missed."

Something you clearly missed is he only said that after his falsities were exposed, and after he had already retained an attorney who had earlier sued Toyota for similar problems. He wasn't planning to sue? Can I sell you a bridge?

In addition to the evidence of the brakes, others here have posted about the man's shady background, and history of other false claims.

"Just because they can't recreate it doesn't mean it didn't happen"

It does mean, however, that we shouldn't believe it based simply on a few anecdotal reports.


RE: Huh?
By StraightCashHomey on 3/15/2010 4:40:46 PM , Rating: 2
If nothing is proven either way, Toyota is still the loser in this case - unfortunately for them.


RE: Huh?
By Iaiken on 3/15/2010 4:21:27 PM , Rating: 5
FROM THE NHTSA CONGRESSIONAL MEMO:
quote:
Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down. NHTSA and Toyota field representatives reported the same results with the 2008 Prius owned by Mr. Sikes.

quote:
According to Mr. David Justo, Toyota Motor Sales HQ, I was informed that he is Toyota's residential Hybrid expert, he stats "that if MG2 (gas pedal is to the floor, creating positive force) and the driver puts the brake MG1 (creating negative force) then the engine would shut down. If the engine does not shut down then the gears would be spinning pat their maximum revolutions per minute and completely seize the engine. So, in this case, knowing that we are able to push the car around the shop, it does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time".


It would appear that Mr. Sikes interests to sue Toyota are a much more simple and appropriate explanation than your "ZOMG! It's a corporate conspiracy!!!" theory.

A full copy of the memo can be found here:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/110031525127/congressi...

Add in that numerous independent sources have been kind enough to besmirch Mr. Sikes reputation by calling him a known scammer and we've apparently got quite the broad reaching conspiracy here... or we have some dude trying to scam Toyota...

Former employees, former colleagues, former home buyers, the bank that foreclosed on their home, the list goes on...

You decide...


RE: Huh?
By Reclaimer77 on 3/15/2010 4:24:27 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Also, just because they can't recreate it doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Except it's mechanically impossible that he couldn't shift the car into neutral. Sorry but this is yet ANOTHER case of the media causing a hype before the facts have been assessed and altering public opinion.

So basically because of one, ONE, incident that can't be reproduced by Toyota or a independent government agency, many of you on Daily Tech have already judged Toyota as being criminally negligent ?? Even if it really happened, they are out millions of dollars because of ONE faulty car.

quote:
Toyota's only interest here is to protect themselves and to smear and destroy this person to do that.


And the interest of the NHTSB is also to smear this guy too ?? Funny since the government owns GM, a direct competitor to Toyota, you would think they results of this report would be different if bias was the main factor.

Some of you just want so badly for Toyota to be the bad guy here that it's just funny.


RE: Huh?
By SPOOFE on 3/16/2010 1:21:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some of you just want so badly for Toyota to be the bad guy here that it's just funny.

It's kind of a sport to demonize the big guy and praise the little guy. And like every sport, there are always some fans that are a bit too zealous. At least he's not wearing cheese on his head (or maybe he is...).


RE: Huh?
By Masospaghetti on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 2:23:28 PM , Rating: 5
" They've misled the public multiple times regarding this issue. its the floormats , they say... its the driver , they say."

Both of which are true. How is this misleading?

"You say that the NHTSA is "independent"? They have glossed over Toyota SUA events since 2003"

By that logic, the NHTSA has "glossed over" S/A incidents for the last 30 years. Do you not realize GM has more total incidents reported than does Toyota? And that the NHTSA investigates each and every report? And that it is almost always found to be driver error?

" over the past 7, Toyota has far exceed any other automaker in number of claims per vehicle."

An outright lie. Prior to 2008, Toyota was in the middle of the pack. Even as of the end of last year (after the media frenzy against Toyota kicked in), Toyota S/A incidents were 1:50,000, just slightly ahead of Ford's 1:65,000 for Ford"

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudd...


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 2:54:00 PM , Rating: 1
Lol, 2 of my posts went from 5 to -1 in under 10 minutes? And TheDoc's went in the reverse direction just as fast?

Whatever you think you're trying to prove with your multiple accounts -- it ain't working.


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 3:03:20 PM , Rating: 1
And this one hit -1 in under five minutes.

You really think you're fooling anyone?


RE: Huh?
By whiskerwill on 3/15/2010 3:09:47 PM , Rating: 1
You pissed off an admin somewhere with too much time on his hands. Don't worry he'll get bored and go away soon.


RE: Huh?
By DanNeely on 3/15/2010 3:42:56 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure what the rules are but from time to time I get links to vote up/down only to have them go away a while later. I haven't figured out what the triggering pattern is.


RE: Huh?
By Suntan on 3/15/2010 4:45:10 PM , Rating: 3
You lose the ability to vote after you post a comment to a thread. At the same time, any votes you cast are erased after you post a comment.

You can either vote on a thread, or post to it, but not both.

Oh, and porkpie, don’t think it is some devilish scheme by the admins. There are a lot of us other readers that downrate you because we get tired of the way you never “turn off.”

-Suntan


RE: Huh?
By DanNeely on 3/16/2010 5:06:11 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for the explanation.


RE: Huh?
By omnicronx on 3/15/10, Rating: 0
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 3:54:17 PM , Rating: 5
"If thats not a red flag, I don't know what is"

Toyota is the #1 automaker. You would expect them to have more total complaints.

As for complaints per vehicle , for 2009 (per my link above) Toyota S/A complaints are 1:50,000, just above Ford, and just below Volkswagon.

If that doesn't indicate this is a tempest in a teapot, I don't know what does. Does Toyota have some issue? Quite possibly...but its certainly not a widespread, systemic fault.


RE: Huh?
By omnicronx on 3/15/10, Rating: 0
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 6:29:36 PM , Rating: 4
"So I guess I just posted the ratios for no reason.."

You didn't post any supporting data. My figures are taken from:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudd...

If you have a source that disagrees, I'd like to see it.

"The evidence popping up seems to contradict Toyota's 'not possible' statements. "

What evidence? Not one single test lab, agency, or government body has yet been able to find any electrical, electronic, or software problem.

"until I see proof, I will not trust Toyota."

Guilty until proven innocent eh? Why not use logic in place of emotion and hearsay? Since there's no such thing as negative proof, Toyota can never "prove" there's no problem.


RE: Huh?
By KaptinB on 3/15/10, Rating: 0
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 10:49:06 PM , Rating: 2
Please try to think clearly. It's really not that difficult.

I said that Toyota was just ahead of Ford, and just behind Volkswagen in S/A incidents per vehicle...which is just what the link says.

Furthermore, those are complaints in 2009...after the media feeding frenzy began. For 2008, the statistics are quite a bit different.


RE: Huh?
By cmdrdredd on 3/16/2010 4:19:40 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
As already repeatedly pointed out, independent and government bodies have also failed to find any systemic software or electronic issue.


Independent = paid by toyota. Try again fool.

The government test is NOT complete yet. Even when it is they aren't engineers with in depth first hand knowledge of the software and electronic systems used on the vehicle. They are relying on Toyota Engineers to give them info and the fact is TOYOTA IS WITHHOLDING AND SELECTIVELY GIVING INFORMATION TO SAVE THEIR OWN ASS.


RE: Huh?
By gsellis on 3/17/2010 2:20:26 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, this issue really does point to an unhandled error. Considering how they built the 'safety' lockouts, the rule of unintended consequence seems be invoked in some cases.

I am always suspect of any case where "it just took off" when the brakes are applied. These are almost always driver error. But the throttle-by-wire, over-rev protection, the ABS, and regenerative braking systems and their implementation tied into an ECU that does not handle unexpected error codes... there is serious room for improvement.

Being average is not Toyota's target. They should be better than average. Something is amiss.


RE: Huh?
By omnicronx on 3/15/2010 3:36:52 PM , Rating: 1
Dun dun DUN...

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-recall-electr...

Proof of concept of a short causing sudden speed surges, as a result of a design flaw* in the EAC which cannot detect or stop these surges(which would be why they do see these so called 'error codes')..
quote:
Regardless of this incident, Toyota clearly has made a major mistake and the public doesn't really care what they choose to verifiy or what they choose to blame it on. Their credability is gone.
Bingo, at this point only full blown proof is going to convince the public that this is not the fault of Toyota. Now I can even admit a lot of the facts behind this story seem suspect, its still hard for me to throw away the idea that this could be Toyota's fault. Had this recall never occurred, this story would have never made the news, and the public would be none the wiser.


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 4:02:16 PM , Rating: 4
Dun dun DUN...

quote:
It dramatically replicated Gilbert's experiment on several vehicles made by rival automakers that had been parked in the briefing room.

"We did what Dr. Gilbert and ABC should have done to test the real-world relevance of Dr. Gilbert's findings," said Toyota spokesman Mike Michels. Gilbert's experiment was "completely unrealistic. He rewired and reengineered a vehicle in multiple ways in a specific sequence that is impossible to occur....

Toyota and its consultants argued that engineers can rewire and re-engineer anything to make it fail. "We could rewire this building and cause it to go into flames," said Subodh Medhekar, principal engineer with Exponent, the outside company Toyota hired to diagnose the runaway acceleration problem.

Toyota also used Gilbert's technique to short-circuit several non-Toyotas and achieved the same result -- a racing engine. "
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...

"only full blown proof is going to convince the public that this is not the fault of Toyota"

Son, you cannot prove a negative. Period. Can't be done. The burden of proof lies on those making the claim.

Can you prove you're not a paid spy working for a foreign government? How? You can do nothing but point out no evidence exists to support such a claim...beyond that, its imposible.

"I can even admit a lot of the facts behind this story seem suspect, its still hard for me to throw away the idea that this could be Toyota's fault. Had this recall never occurred..."

You have your logic backwards. Toyota issued a recall because of a spate of complaints. The recall itself doesn't indicate any widespread systemic problem. Your 'where there's smoke there must be fire' rationale is flawed to the core.


RE: Huh?
By blowfish on 3/15/2010 2:41:14 PM , Rating: 3
and this Sikes guy is a bankrupt and a known lying liar. End of story. Maybe he'll start spilling McDonald's hot coffee on his lap next. As for the "death threats" his wide claims - perhaps they're from sikes' numerous aggrieved creditors.


RE: Huh?
By clovell on 3/15/2010 3:13:21 PM , Rating: 2
... Because it's okay to recieve death threats as long as they're from creditors?


RE: Huh?
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 4:55:02 PM , Rating: 2
If there ever were any death threats. Not that I necessarily doubt it (I've witnessed death threats over Enterprise Versus Star Destroyer questions), but I also recognize that it's easy to claim you're being oh-so-harassed to garner public sympathy.


RE: Huh?
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 12:28:37 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Toyota could never admit to this or they'd potentially be ruined.

They're recalling 8.5 million cars potentially linked to 52 deaths, but it's THIS guy that'll be the ruin of the company? Did you forget to take your Logic pills this morning?


RE: Huh?
By Proprioceptive on 3/15/2010 10:50:38 AM , Rating: 5
I think you missed the part where they can't find wear patterns on the brakes consistent with his story... so... I call shens.


RE: Huh?
By walk2k on 3/15/2010 12:51:40 PM , Rating: 5
Sounds like his brakes were simply worn out.

Proper maintenence was not done to the vehicle.
User error - case closed.

Though I still have a hard time believing that a prius motor could propel the car to 90mph with the brakes fully applied even if the pads were worn down to metal. He probably had hydraulic issues too (old fluid, low fluid, leaks, worn out or damaged master cylinder, etc...)

That's of course if he's not outright lying about the whole thing..


RE: Huh?
By Souka on 3/15/2010 1:23:54 PM , Rating: 3
old points, but..

1. press brake pedal firmly
2. engage emergency brake
3. put car into neutral
4. turn ignition off (one click, keep steering from being locked)

Steps 3 OR 4 will stop ANY car....I just don't get it....


RE: Huh?
By Spivonious on 3/15/2010 4:18:15 PM , Rating: 2
#1. I really fail to believe that the brakes can stop a car travelling 90+ mph with full throttle engaged. Prove me wrong.

#2. Lock the rear wheels on a FWD car. What is this going to do except wear down your tires?

#3. Can't shift into neutral on most auto trans when the throttle is engaged.

#4. One click puts it in accessory mode on most cars, so yes you will lose power steering. This is the only thing you mentioned that is guaranteed to stop the engine.


RE: Huh?
By Suntan on 3/15/2010 4:41:12 PM , Rating: 2
#1 The last Car and Driver magazine had a test of their own. A late model Toyota Camry only took an additional 9 feet to come to a stop with the throttle pegged, vs foot off the throttle. Even a 500hp mustang could stop with the go pedal mashed down.

#3 That’s fud. I’ve never seen an auto that can’t be put from drive to neutral. Even with the throttle mashed. Even if it has clutch packs to engage the overdrive, it only takes a moment to bleed off the hydraulic pressure and make the clutches disengage, this is automatically done when shifting to neutral.

As for computer controlled transmissions, again I know of none that would bork when shifting to neutral. I would assume that, as a safety measure, the ability to shift to neutral would be a high priority in the logic tree for the auto controller.

#4 Even if you loose power steering, you can still control your vehicle. The steering shaft is still directly coupled to the rack turning the wheels. At highway speeds, the effort needed to steer your car down the road and safely pull over to the side of the road is so small that most people probably wouldn’t even realize they lost power steering unless they tried to then turn off the road onto another street at slower speeds. In any case, you should be capable of controlling your vehicle, even with the engine off. Ignorance, incompetence and a blind faith that a mechanical machine will never fail are not the automaker’s fault.

Being initially surprised by your car doing something you didn’t expect is one thing. Having your car malfunction long enough for you to call 911 and scream at them just means you are incompetent behind the wheel and shouldn’t be on the road in the first place.

-Suntan


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 4:41:52 PM , Rating: 2
"I really fail to believe that the brakes can stop a car travelling 90+ mph with full throttle engaged. Prove me wrong."

Try the experiment yourself. Or, if you prefer, look up stopping distances vs. acceleration times for any vehicle in the world. Even a 400hp monster will decelerate significantly faster than it can accelerate, much less a Prius.

Now, basic physics. Acceleration is proportional to force. If a body decelerates faster than it accelerates, then deceleration force must be greater than accelerative force.

End of proof.


RE: Huh?
By Reclaimer77 on 3/15/2010 5:56:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
#3. Can't shift into neutral on most auto trans when the throttle is engaged.


Proof ?? Cause I've never EVER heard of a car where this is the case.

quote:
#4. One click puts it in accessory mode on most cars, so yes you will lose power steering.


You don't need power steering on a moving car to steer. Sure as HELL not one going 90+ MPH.


RE: Huh?
By daInvincibleGama on 3/15/2010 8:55:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

#3. Can't shift into neutral on most auto trans when the throttle is engaged.


LOL.

You are right about the power steering though. Even though power steering only helps at really low speeds, theres no harm to leave the engine on in neutral.


RE: Huh?
By Suntan on 3/15/2010 4:24:24 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, but car companies have been selling cars based on the idea that people don’t have to bother with knowing how the dynamics of the car works… And Toyota markets their cars to that crowd of people more than other automakers (although they all do to some extent.)

The guy in the article here said to a camera crew at the accident that he didn’t try to put it into neutral because he thought it might flip over or something… Whether he was laying or just straight up that stupid, still doesn’t change the fact that most people just don’t know what to do.

-Suntan


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 5:37:35 PM , Rating: 3
"...still doesn’t change the fact that most people just don’t know what to do."

He was TOLD to put it into neutral by the 911 operator. He refused to do so.


RE: Huh?
By daInvincibleGama on 3/15/2010 9:03:10 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think ignorance of how to properly operate the vehicle should be Toyota's fault. Besides, he did refuse to put the car in neutral.

Neutral isolates the engine and cuts all power. It's on the selector. People should know what it does.

I do feel bad about the people that lost their lives to dumb crap like this, but in most cases, you can attribute the loss of life to insufficient knowledge and skill (which is the fault of the lax licensing system, but that's another story).

In cases where someone floors a car to catch up to traffic (like on a highway ramp) and the pedal gets stuck there and causes a crash before the driver has the TIME to react, Toyota's at fault. If the vehicle is just speeding away for miles along some stretch of highway and there is a crash a long time later, that's definitely not Toyota's fault.


RE: Huh?
By Ammohunt on 3/15/2010 2:40:32 PM , Rating: 2
I have over 190K miles on my Prius and have never had the brake pads replaced. I had them checked at 170k and the dealer said they were still at 25%.


RE: Huh?
By Suntan on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Huh?
By daInvincibleGama on 3/15/2010 9:04:39 PM , Rating: 2
LOL.

Honestly though, it probably has something to do with the regenerative braking.


RE: Huh?
By daInvincibleGama on 3/15/2010 9:05:35 PM , Rating: 1
Come on. Don't rate that down.


RE: Huh?
By djc208 on 3/15/2010 5:51:46 PM , Rating: 2
Depends on where you live and drive. This guy is in San Diego/LA area, lots more hills and elevation changes hence more brake usage than in flatter locations.

Additionally your driving style will have much to do with it,especially in a Prius. Use the regen braking a lot and you can get that kind of mileage out of your brakes. Brake harder and you'll put more wear on the regular braking system.


RE: Huh?
By mindless1 on 3/15/2010 3:38:22 PM , Rating: 2
Seems like you don't know much about cars.

1) If the pads were down to metal, yes they would do barely anything to stop the car.

2) It's irrelevant if the break switch overrides the accelerator, except IF there is some electrical glitch as we've all been wondering about.

3) If a 2008 car already has hydraulic issues such as fluid low or leaks that in itself is a major defect.

4) "Old" fluid? You must be kidding. You don't change your fluid every couple years on a new car.

5) Maybe he is lying, it's possible, but it has nothing to do with what you're speculating about. The state of the brakes in itself does not prove or disprove his story. If the brakes were worn down it could have happened before an acceleration incident, and could have prevented good stopping power, but note he hadn't wrecked the car from lack of stopping power up till then, IF the car had unintended acceleration it is the primary problem.

Personally I don't "believe" the car had unintended acceleration, but it IS possible it did, no evidence so far completely disproves that.


RE: Huh?
By whiskerwill on 3/15/2010 4:24:17 PM , Rating: 2
" The state of the brakes in itself does not prove or disprove his story"

Since several independent auto engineers have said otherwise, that seems highly unlikely. His brakes were not worn down, the oxidation pattern clearly demonstrated he had attempted only moderate, intermittent braking.


RE: Huh?
By mindless1 on 3/16/2010 8:58:39 PM , Rating: 2
His brakes were not worn down?

Which Dailytech article are you posting on because on THIS one, it certainly seems to state they were.


RE: Huh?
By Mojo the Monkey on 3/15/2010 12:58:56 PM , Rating: 3
In addition to the info about his previous bankruptcy, just a few months ago he filed a burglary claim, stating that he had over $25,000 in cash stolen from him. Oh yeah, he was ALSO over 5 months late on his car payments for this Prius.

You dont have $25K lying around, while ALSO being 5 months late on your car payments.

911 operator: "have you tried putting it in neutral?"

Sykes: ".....(long pause)... No....."


RE: Huh?
By noirsoft on 3/15/2010 10:51:51 AM , Rating: 2
No, they are saying that even if the software did fail and accelerate the car, pressing the brakes would still cause the engine to shut off via a mechanical (not software-controlled) system.


RE: Huh?
By stirfry213 on 3/15/2010 11:39:15 AM , Rating: 4
No, thats not what they are saying. They are saying that if the vehicle's electronic components happen to fail (they would normally not allow this condition) and allowed for full on brake and throttle, it would "seize" the vehicle.

I'm sure it has something to do with the transmission trying to drive the vehicle as well as use the regenerative braking feature at the same time. If this happened, it would scatter the transmission and possibly damage the engine.


RE: Huh?
By walk2k on 3/15/2010 1:18:47 PM , Rating: 2
There's nothing "software" about the brakes on a car. It's a pedal attached to a hydraulic system that forces brake pads into brake rotors which are attached directly to the wheels which makes them stop spinning.

Wheels no spin - car no go.

The entire "computer" could "crash" hell it could FALL OFF THE VEHICLE but the brakes would still work ! They don't need "software", they run on something called "simple physics".


RE: Huh?
By Alexstarfire on 3/15/2010 2:25:57 PM , Rating: 2
The physical brakes, yes. From the brake pedal to the brakes, no. You should read up on some stuff before commenting. Almost everything runs through a computer before it does what you think it does. The eBrake being the biggest exception and the whole reason for that is that is it's in case all-else fails.


RE: Huh?
By mindless1 on 3/15/2010 3:52:49 PM , Rating: 2
Hello ANTI-LOCK brakes?


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 4:44:12 PM , Rating: 2
Hello, but ABS systems don't work by engaging the brakes. They operate by disengaging them...negative feedback, not positive.

If your ABS fails, you still have braking ability.


RE: Huh?
By mindless1 on 3/16/2010 8:51:39 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, but we were talking about locking wheels too.


RE: Huh?
By siuol11 on 3/15/2010 5:19:18 PM , Rating: 2
Cars with regenerative braking are break-by-wire, so to speak. Read a little.


RE: Huh?
By Proprioceptive on 3/15/2010 10:52:53 AM , Rating: 2
I think you missed the part where they can't find wear patterns on the brakes consistent with his story... so... I call shens.

Plus I listened to the 911 call, and this guy is a true idiot.


RE: Huh?
By siuol11 on 3/15/2010 11:41:28 AM , Rating: 3
You posted this twice, so I call shens too.


RE: Huh?
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 10:57:36 AM , Rating: 2
There is supposedly a "black box" but it doesn't seem to be of much use. Also it is fair to note, US auto makers are having these issues as well on a few models.
My father had these acceleration issues with his new F-150. After months of negotiations, they bought the truck back.
I also think this is software related.


RE: Huh?
By weskurtz0081 on 3/15/2010 11:25:45 AM , Rating: 3
Sorry, but I don't think anecdotal evidence (IE. my father/family member had this problem) is adequate proof.

I am not saying you are wrong, but if you want to make claims like that, it would be best to back it up with a link to some sort of proof of your claims, not a story that cannot be substantiated.


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 11:32:18 AM , Rating: 3
"Sorry, but I don't think anecdotal evidence...is adequate proof."

But you're willing to accept the anecdotal reports of Toyota owners?


RE: Huh?
By Chaser on 3/15/2010 11:55:25 AM , Rating: 2
Explain exactly with the NTSA involved and a complete breakdown of the equipment and and examination is ancedotal compared to claim like, "my brother's roommate had the same problem"?


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 12:10:57 PM , Rating: 1
"Explain exactly with the NTSA involved and a complete breakdown of the equipment and and examination is ancedotal"

The part where the NHTSA failed to find any problem with this vehicle.


RE: Huh?
By weskurtz0081 on 3/15/10, Rating: 0
RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 12:21:53 PM , Rating: 2
"You honestly don't see the difference between what has happened with Toyota and the acceleration issue and some dude saying "my dad had a problem "

I don't see the difference between THIS Toyota and a random claim. Actually, I'd be more likely to believe a random claim, as there's substantial evidence discounting this man's story.

Sudden acceleration reports are reported to the NHTSB for all vehicle manufacturers. They number in the thousands, and have been reported continually for decades:

http://mfes.com/suddenaccel.html


RE: Huh?
By weskurtz0081 on 3/15/2010 12:28:22 PM , Rating: 2
Well, that's not what you said initially. You said "Toyota owners" not "this Toyota owner".

There is no difference between this one guy making a claim and some random dude on DT saying something, I agree, that's just not what I initially posted about nor how you responded.


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 12:53:27 PM , Rating: 3
To clarify, my position is that people are bowing too much to the "where there's smoke, there must be fire" belief.

All vehicles, regardless of maker, have reports of S/A issues. When investigated, the vast majority turn out to be driver error. The rest wind up being stuck floormats, the occasional jammed accelerator, and a small fraction that are never able to be resolved.

Does Toyota have a serious problem here, or are they just temporarily, slightly worse than average? Or is it all just a statistical bubble, now being fed by media frenzy and copycat/placebo effect scenarios? I don't think any rational person has enough information to say definitely at this point.


RE: Huh?
By weskurtz0081 on 3/15/2010 12:02:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
by porkpie on March 15, 2010 at 11:32 AM "Sorry, but I don't think anecdotal evidence...is adequate proof." But you're willing to accept the anecdotal reports of Toyota owners?


See above ^


RE: Huh?
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 12:17:07 PM , Rating: 2
Proof was Ford bought back the vehicle.


RE: Huh?
By weskurtz0081 on 3/15/2010 12:25:19 PM , Rating: 1
Huh? Maybe you misunderstand my point. You are saying that you want people to believe your story without any proof. It's just that you are claiming something that you have not backed up with the slightest shed of proof. Reports of this happening to more than 1 person (your dad), reports of it happening at all, anything that helps back up what you are saying.

Does that clear things up a bit?


RE: Huh?
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 1:00:01 PM , Rating: 1
I don't have to back it up, Ford did by buying the vehicle back for full value. If there was no issue, it wouldn't have been bought back. Ford did all the routine tests and documentation, they bought the truck back. I really don't see what is so hard to understand.


RE: Huh?
By weskurtz0081 on 3/15/2010 1:03:03 PM , Rating: 2
It is very easy for someone to show up in a forum and make up whatever they want. Clear now?


RE: Huh?
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 1:06:19 PM , Rating: 2
Also to just be arbitrary as you seem to be doing. ;) Point, counterpoint game can go on for a long time.


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 1:11:24 PM , Rating: 2
In general, you only ask for a random Internet claim to be backed up if its unlikely. If someone posts "My mom ate a grapefruit for breakfast", you don't refuse to believe them without a pageful of links and documentary evidence.

In this case, since every major manufacturer has had occasional, non-systemic problems with S/A, I don't see any reason to doubt his claim.


RE: Huh?
By sigilscience on 3/15/2010 1:18:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If someone posts "My mom ate a grapefruit for breakfast", you don't refuse to believe them without a pageful of links and documentary evidence.
Lol, you have a way with analogies I give u that.


RE: Huh?
By weskurtz0081 on 3/16/2010 10:29:16 AM , Rating: 2
The OP is using his analogy to make the claim that Ford is also having a similar problem as Toyota. I don't think they are. I am sure every manufacturer has a problem every now and then with certain things, acceleration being one of them, but saying "my dad....." and then equating that to Ford having the same problem is wrong.

The reason I wanted links is not because I don't think it is possible for it to happen to other car companies, it's because I don't think it is currently happening on the same scale. If it's not happening on at least a similar scale, then Ford is not having the same problem.


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/16/2010 11:08:12 AM , Rating: 2
"If it's not happening on at least a similar scale, then Ford is not having the same problem."

See my prior link. Sudden acceleration complaints for Ford in 2009 were 1:65K vehicles, vs. 1:50K vehicles for Toyota.

"The OP is using his analogy to make the claim that Ford is also having a similar problem as Toyota"

I'll concede your point in the general, but not the specific. Fair enough? :)


RE: Huh?
By rcc on 3/15/2010 2:38:08 PM , Rating: 2
Proof would be Ford finding a problem and fixing it.

If they had to buy back one vehicle to "fix" it, they'd need to buy them all back.

Sounds like it was just easier for the dealer/Ford to buy it back, rather than deal with the personalities involved. Look at it from their standpoint, if they can't find a problem and a solution, it's easier to "buy back" the car than have a customer with a confidence issue with one of their vehicles.


RE: Huh?
By RaisedinUS on 3/15/2010 2:55:02 PM , Rating: 2
Unless like Toyota, they can't "fix" it. Ford (or nearly any dealer best I can tell)won't buy back a perfectly good vehicle without reason. A replacement vehicle had already been bought and it wasn't a Ford product so that ruled out "loyalty" buy back. There is also no evidence it was actually fixed. If it had been fixable, the previous 5-6 trips to the dealer would have done so and there would have been no need to buy the vehicle back.
This issue took several months to lead to a buy back, it wasn't an over night solution.


RE: Huh?
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 5:03:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If they had to buy back one vehicle to "fix" it, they'd need to buy them all back.

Untrue. Some cars are simply lemons, and Lemon Laws require them to buy back the vehicle if they can't figure out/fix what's wrong with it.


RE: Huh?
By rcc on 3/19/2010 2:19:48 PM , Rating: 2
The OP said he thought it was a software issue. If so, it would affect many vehicles, not one. Also, we don't know whether the dealer was ever able to duplicate the problem.

Lemons are another thing altogether.


RE: Huh?
By stimudent on 3/15/2010 11:08:40 AM , Rating: 3
There are always a few that will take advantage of a situation like this to get 15 minutes of fame and money.


RE: Huh?
By Iaiken on 3/15/2010 11:11:49 AM , Rating: 5
Regardless of replication.

If the body of evidence points to this particular incident being a scam, then it's probably a scam. Fortunately for Mr. Sikes, his life is already in financial ruins and Toyota doesn't need to sue him to have it put on public record that he lied since the state will likely charge him.

The biggest give away is the brakes. The Toyota Prius uses carbon ceramic brakes, under sustained high speed braking, the following would have been observed (in order of severity):

- Glossy pad surface
- Warped rotors
- Brake fluid boil off
- Fusion of the brake pads to the calipers and rotors when the vehicle came to a complete stop

The fact that NONE of the above were observed means that he wasn't on the brakes. Add to the above that a Prius engine simply doesn't have the torque to overpower fully depressed brakes and it's pretty obviously a scam.


RE: Huh?
By HotFoot on 3/15/2010 11:42:40 AM , Rating: 1
I think the biggest problem with all of this is the risk emergency workers take to try to help someone. If this is indeed a stunt, the biggest apology should be going to those workers, and their families.

Maybe the next time this guy calls 911 they should just hang up on him (if this was indeed a prank).


RE: Huh?
By CU on 3/15/2010 11:59:49 AM , Rating: 2
If the breaks didn't slow the car down at all or didn't seem to be working. Why would you hold the peddle down for long periods of time? If it was me I would have pressed the peddle to the floor a few times then found another way to stop the car not hold the peddle down the hole time. So, I would not expect sustained high speed braking, because that would have stopped the car, which it didn't, for what ever reason.


RE: Huh?
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 12:32:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why would you hold the peddle down for long periods of time?

It's an unfortunate fact that some people panic; some people just don't think of unpleasant possibilities, and thus when they do happen they're completely unprepared.


RE: Huh?
By CU on 3/15/2010 3:00:41 PM , Rating: 2
True but my point was why would an inspector expect to find this if the car didn't stop. If the guy did hold the peddle down and it didn't stop then the brakes wouldn't show this pattern, because obviously the brakes were not working and if they guy never held the brakes down then it wouldn't show this pattern.

Basically there is no way to have this wear pattern in a car that doesn't stop, so why look for it on a car that didn't stop.


RE: Huh?
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 5:08:48 PM , Rating: 2
The implication in the article is that the guy was slamming on his brakes. I don't know if he told investigators he kept them down for an extended period or not. I'm guessing that they simply noted the worn brake pads while checking the car over, but pointed out that the worn brakes weren't caused by the latest incident just to keep even more panic/speculation/rumors from seeping out.


RE: Huh?
By zsdersw on 3/15/2010 1:24:45 PM , Rating: 2
Okay, really, it's BRAKES not breaks when you're referring to the system in a vehicle that stops it.


RE: Huh?
By Iaiken on 3/15/2010 1:36:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If it was me I would have pressed the peddle to the floor


And if you were driving a Prius with functional breaks, the car would have come to a complete stop and you could put it in park and shut off the engine before it seized.


RE: Huh?
By drycrust3 on 3/15/2010 11:44:47 AM , Rating: 2
Excuse me for asking, but has anyone got a video of this car while this is happening? If they do, does it show the brake lights are on? I don't know whether the brake lights are activated by the traditional microswitch above the brake pedal type of circuitry, but if it is and the brake lights are on, then surely it suggests an element of truth in what the driver claims.

One of the basics of fixing any fault is being able to reproduce the conditions that reproduce it, or rather produce conditions under which it actually happens, and sometimes that can be very difficult, and even then the "why" can still be a mystery. One of the hardest faults I ever actually solved was a slightly loose "earth" screw in a telecoms switching system, and that was found by noticing a test machine failed at the same time as some timing relays clicked.

Toyota need to find out everything this guy did on that trip, turn on the radio and airconditioning in exactly the same sequence, drive to the same speeds on the same route, stop at the same traffic lights, etc, because there may be something about a particular combination of events that affects the software in an unusual manner. Also, they need to check things like earth resistance and voltage supplied to the accelerator pedal sensor etc (without breaking down the connections) to make sure they are within design spec because a small amount of corrosion or dirt under an electrical contact could affect the the electrical signals sent to the engine, or produce noise which mimics the "accelerate" signals. For example, a high earth resistance may inadvertantly make lots noise, which looks like lots of "1"s, which could mean "accelerate" to the engine.
For them to say they can't reproduce the problem doesn't specifically mean that it didn't happen. While I side with the company on this, I've found too many "can't happen" faults to believe it is too early to say it didn't happen.
I think the easy solution for Toyota is to advertise a series of safe emergency tactics to follow if this happens by chance, e.g. put the car into neutral, turn the ignition key back on click, etc.


RE: Huh?
By Iaiken on 3/15/2010 11:53:31 AM , Rating: 4
Not true.

If you depress your brakes, there is a small amount of play at the start where the brake lights turn on before the actual brake engages.

It is equally plausible that he could have been mashing the gas with one foot and feathering the brakes with the other.


RE: Huh?
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 6:31:56 PM , Rating: 2
The CHP Officer reported smoke from around his wheels. So his brakes were working to a degree.

The only thing that fits that fact, and the wear pattern on the brakes is that he was keeping the accelerator floored, but slightly applying the brakes, just enough to cause friction and heat up the pads.


RE: Huh?
By drycrust3 on 3/15/2010 11:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
As I asked, is there any known video of this car taken while this incident is happening, and if so, does it show the brake lights turning on?


RE: Huh?
By The Raven on 3/15/2010 1:20:17 PM , Rating: 2
Are you saying that sofeware issues can't be replicated if the machine is rebooted? But it is irrelevant to the fact that this guy's story doesn't add up. What does add up, is that Toyota and the US gov't (thanks to Ralph Nader) put cars under the strictest scrutiny and I believe them more so (even if not blindly) than I would this nut.

Here's what I don't get, the media goes balls to the wall with reports that Toyotas will take off suddenly, but they barely mention (if at all) that the brakes are controlled by mechanics and people just come up with crazy ideas about their cars linking up to Skynet and they feel the need to sell their cars to that nerd, Arnie Cunningham.

And to all those people who think the e-brake is some sort of suicide switch... you don't have to slam the thing! Wake up America!


RE: Huh?
By siuol11 on 3/15/2010 5:25:08 PM , Rating: 2
Prius brakes are not purely mechanical- nor are those of any car that has regenerative brakes.


RE: Huh?
By The Raven on 3/16/2010 3:48:48 PM , Rating: 2
Ok so you are saying that the gov't allowed Toyota to put a car that cannot override the computer on our roads? And we should sue/persecute Toyota?

It must've gone a little like this when the Prius was introduced to the US:

NHTSA: Hi Toyota. You can sell computer controlled cars without mechanical overrides in our country.

Toyota: Here is a Prius!

NHTSA: What?! There are no mechanical overrides!!! How could you be so negligent to allow such a car on the road...err...make such a car?!?!? We will drive you out of business!

And what exactly do you mean by "purely"? Are you saying they are purely electronic? How do they work?


Priue Override
By mkammer on 3/15/10, Rating: -1
RE: Priue Override
By Mojo the Monkey on 3/15/2010 7:09:16 PM , Rating: 2
When the CHP officer was riding next to him, it would have been very obvious if he didnt see any brake lights on the "runaway" prius. Given that any idiot knows brake lights are visible, he likely just pressed the brakes very lightly while holding the gas.

If you read how the mechanism works, the gas does not disengage unless the brakes are FULLY depressed. So if you have the gas at 3/4 of the way down and are barely holding the brakes... they would stay engaged and its NO SURPRISE that they look worn after 20+ minutes of continuous light application at 92mph.

And I dont think you should be allowed to come on here and post anything until you go find the audio clip of the 911 call.


RE: Priue Override
By porkpie on 3/15/2010 7:17:35 PM , Rating: 2
"Two hours of "testing" by Toyota does not rule out that this incident "

What about two weeks of testing by the federal government (NHTSB)?

"Toyota has an override to keep the car from accelerating if the brakes are on"

No. The Prius has a brake-to-idle function that operates only during hard braking. If you keep gentle pressure on the brakes, engine power remains...and your brake pads will eventually overheat.

"Examine the evidence people!"

How about the evidence that all tests showed that, not only were the brakes working, but that the engine off switch was working also? And that the accelerator would not stick in the down position, as he claimed? How about the evidence that he refused to switch into neutral as instructed by 911?

How about the fact he retained a well-known Toyota suing attorney less than 24 hours after this incident? How about the fact his ex-partner, his mortgage company, and a half-dozen others all say he's a well-known scammer? That he's filed false police reports before and suspect insurance claims?

Take your own advice. Examine the evidence.


RE: Priue Override
By Reclaimer77 on 3/15/2010 7:37:55 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Toyota has an override to keep the car from accelerating if the brakes are on. The simple fact that the brakes were almost burned out indicates that the override system was NOT working properly.


Right because nobody could drive with the brake and gas down for miles to purposely burn the brakes up planning this scheme, knowing full well the car would be examined to verify his claim. Nahhh, people couldn't possibly be that deceiving in this age and time..


RE: Priue Override
By SPOOFE on 3/15/2010 8:47:26 PM , Rating: 2
Jim? Is that you?


RE: Priue Override
By cmdrdredd on 3/16/2010 4:26:24 PM , Rating: 1
Toyota is doing anything to save their own ass. They won't admit any fault and are likely paying to keep information quiet. Fuck them I say. I never have and will never buy a Toyota vehicle ever in my life time. Especially after this fiasco.


RE: Priue Override
By cmdrdredd on 3/16/2010 4:28:23 PM , Rating: 1
Oh and this reminds me exactly of Joe The Plumber. He made a real statement based on facts. The Liberals dug up any old piece of bullshit they could and put it in the news. This is exactly what Toyota is doing. Avoid the issue at hand and smear the guys name to make him go away.

PATHETIC


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