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Microsoft will take the fight to pirates with new security features in Vista SP1

Microsoft has big plans in store for its Windows Vista operating system. The company released a release candidate version of Service Pack 1 (SP1) for Windows Vista in mid-November. SP1 is supposed to address a number of performance-related issues with Vista and includes a number of security update and bug fixes that have been rolled out since the operating system launched over a year ago.

In addition to the previously mentioned SP1 features, Microsoft is looking to make pirating Vista a tougher endeavor. The Redmond, Washington-based company says that new measures introduced with SP1 will further reduce piracy -- piracy for Vista is already less than half that of Windows XP according to Microsoft.

One loophole that Microsoft will close is the current method of extending the "grace period" to activate Vista. Original versions of the exploit allowed users to extend the grace period from 30 days to 120 days. Later variations of the hack extended the grace period to a full year, while yet another extended the grace period to the year 2099.

"Under this new system, no features will be disabled. Instead it will be a notification-based experience similar in some ways to what we have done with XP. A user of a system that has not been activated and gone through the 30-day grace period to activate will, when logging in on the 31st day, see a dialog box on a plain black background," said Microsoft group product manager Alex Kochis.

"That will give them two options: Activate Windows now, which will bring up all the options to do this, and activate Windows later, which takes them directly to their desktop, which will be exactly the same as it had been the last time they used it, except that there will be a plain black background and a message in the lower right hand corner over the system tray telling them that their copy of Windows is not genuine," Kochis continued.

Microsoft will also put a stop to the OEM BIOS exploit which allows unscrupulous Vista pirates to edit systems files and a motherboard's BIOS to fool Windows into thinking that it is installed in a genuine OEM system.

These latest additions to Vista, however, will do little to quell those who continue to rally behind Microsoft's venerable Windows XP operating system. Due to customer demand, Microsoft extended the shelf life of Windows XP and has given OEMs the ability to provide Windows XP downgrades for customers who are unhappy with their new Windows Vista-based machines. In addition, recent testing has shown that Vista SP1 is no match for Windows XP SP3 in OfficeBench performance which gotten much play around the web.

Not surprisingly, Apple has pounced on Microsoft's Vista woes and has a number of television commercials which poke fun at Vista's "inferiority" to Windows XP.

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apple better watch out.
By michal1980 on 12/4/2007 11:42:28 AM , Rating: 5
dont poke, when your own leopard update is causing people problems. like 'cough' blue screen of death 'cough'




RE: apple better watch out.
By DM0407 on 12/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:04:12 PM , Rating: 5
How about in actual usability, because that is why Windows sells, not gaming.

Linux will never be mainstream because Linux will never be predictably and properly supported.


RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 12:27:48 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly. What "geeks" don't seem to get is that the problem with Linux is not the software itself, but the business model. Windows is successful because you have a very large organization selling it and supporting it. With Linux, you have volunteers on message boards. Not exactly the same thing.

The best hope for Linux is for a large player to productize it. Grassroots isn't going to cut it against Windows.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 1:32:44 PM , Rating: 4
Do you think the average PC user ever uses Microsoft's support? Have you ever called up Microsoft's support hot-line? Last I checked getting support from Microsoft cost money, I could be wrong now, so please correct me. Also, wouldn't buying a Dell system pre-installed with Ubuntu as well as Dell extended support and warranty cover your Linux support?

Anyway I'm tired of this Windows vs. Linux crap already. IMO they are both excellent systems. Windows makes an excellent desktop OS. The only reason to use Linux on an everyday PC would be

1) price (Linux is free)
2) hardware reqs. (Linux can run easily on low system sepcs)
3) You don't want to worry about Malware.

For a server or a multiuser system, Linux offers a much better solution IMO. I use Linux, Netware and Windows on a daily basis.

The argument that Windows is more "usable" or "intuitive" than Linux is pure FUD. It may seem that way to someone more familiar with Windows and that's the ONLY reason. So to each their own I say. If they used Linux before using Windows then it would seem the other way around. To those of us who have used PCs since MS-DOS and before, going from Windows to Linux now shouldn't be unintuitive at all.


RE: apple better watch out.
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 1:39:12 PM , Rating: 3
I don't know about you but I hate the command line. Windows is popular because its simple. There's no question of where things are. Where are your programs stored? Program Files. Where do you add a printer? Add a Printer in the Control Panel. My dad is computer illiterate. He can barely use Windows. If I put Linux in front of him, he'd probably have a heart attack.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 1:51:41 PM , Rating: 3
Oh /opt. Of course. That's so clear. I forgot that the entire world is taught POSIX standards in grade school. How silly of me.

And you still have to do a lot of things through a terminal(aka, the command line) in Linux inside of XWindows, Gnome, etc.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:14:36 PM , Rating: 4
Thank you for proving my whole point.

/opt is not intuitive to you because your not used to it. It's not more or less intuitive than Windows. People are just not used to using it. For me all it took was "oh it's /opt, that's not hard to remember". It's honestly not difficult. It's not taught in grade school? Maybe it will be. Give it time, Linux has come a great ways since the mid 90s when it started. Dell is coming on board slowly. Grade Schools should be coming on board. Linux is far better suited for the class room than Windows. Ubuntu is making a push toward the classroom with edubuntu.

If you think you *need* to use the terminal to function "a lot" of Linux then that's your own misconception. I could be wrong maybe. Can you list some things? I can't think of any off the top of my head.


RE: apple better watch out.
By leexgx on 12/4/2007 2:36:01 PM , Rating: 3
I am an supporter of Linux but if there are Simple problems that come up you end up having to use the command line and type some obscure long command in to mount an disk or do other things

allot of simple things i find that i have an go at and find after 2-3 mins of using it i hit roadblocks that make me having to hunt for howtos

Ubuntu is good simple OS but if you want to use GUI to mess with stuff i do not recommend it
Mandrake (mandrivra?) 2008 seems to work well loads of GUI config options (auto update is off by default and is very confusing to turn on the repo's back on)

windows just works all users will end up doing is not installing Vista SP1, as i change hardware allot i use the OEM patch my self (i own vista Ultimate Key and the 64Bit Vista DVD) but if used my vista disk id be ringing M$ allot or have to buy more keys that i am not going to be doing

Vista is not my Prim boot on my pc (XP is) sp1 will give me an reason to format my other RAID 0 array in my pc


RE: apple better watch out.
By erikejw on 12/4/2007 11:28:10 PM , Rating: 4
"dont poke, when your own leopard update is causing people problems. like 'cough' blue screen of death 'cough'"

Never ever poke a Leopard, it might poke you back

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UyJuZef9r9c

;))))


RE: apple better watch out.
By PandaBear on 12/5/2007 6:40:46 PM , Rating: 3
This is the best post in the entire thread.


RE: apple better watch out.
By MrPickins on 12/4/2007 2:44:32 PM , Rating: 5
Are you seriously arguing that "/opt" is more intuitive than "Program Files"?


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:14:50 PM , Rating: 4
Ok my last post cause no one listens or understands they just assume and down rate based on bias. I never it's more intuitive. It said neither is more or less than the other. You're just used to Windows thats it.

/opt stands for Optional Software packages. ie. 3rd party programs.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:20:52 PM , Rating: 3
Sorry for the typos. I was on the phone lol

The second and third sentence should read:

"I never said it's more intuitive. I said neither is more or less than the other"


RE: apple better watch out.
By isorfir on 12/4/2007 4:19:02 PM , Rating: 4
That's ok, I'm sure the person you were talking to on the phone was just as confused.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 5:08:57 PM , Rating: 2
lol no actually I was cause I was barely paying attention to them.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Nekrik on 12/4/2007 6:44:50 PM , Rating: 5
I'm pretty late getting into this conversation but wanted to share a few ideas, they may be very wrong, but it's my perception.

If you've never seen a PC, then both Windows and Linux/Unix/BSD/etc... will be pretty confusing and could be difficult to even use for many people. Attempting to troubleshoot one or add/remove hardware, especially hardware that does not have drivers included in the base installation of the OS, could be a nightmare.

Linux is a great OS for what it does/can do, but I don't think it has the same target audience as Windows (and for that matter, neither does OSX). For each OSes' target market they are doing pretty well, but none of them are happy letting another have any market share at all. If Linux wants to push Windows out of their current PC market share they need to reduce it down to a few (like 5-8 at the most) flavors, 700+ does nothing but fragment their users and make it nearly impossible for any one flavor to suceed. Problem here is that if you reduce it down to a few major distros you have just taken away the massive flexibilty and one of the primary benifits of the OS, it can be customized, so much so that theoretically every person running it could all have their very own version, some could be compatible with others, but some also would have very different requirements. Having 5-8 means they could be tested for compatibilty across the line and support would be easier. It seems a lot of Linux users are pretty quick to attack each other when it comes to the superior distro, a consensus among Linus users needs to be made before trying to acquire others into what looks to be a fairly disorganized situation.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Nekrik on 12/5/2007 12:59:04 AM , Rating: 3
"...a consensus among Linus users..."

In the last sentence of my other post there is a typo, Linus should be Linux, but it's kinda a funny typo :).


RE: apple better watch out.
By kmmatney on 12/4/2007 4:36:15 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, but that's not obvious. I've been a computer enthusiast for 25 years and have tried Linux since the early days, but still find it a pain in the rear when trying to do anything beyond the basics.


RE: apple better watch out.
By shamgar03 on 12/4/2007 6:05:44 PM , Rating: 4
Funny I can't use windows for anything BUT the basics. Have you ever considered how unintuitive Device Manager is? Where is device manager? Ohh, wait duh. You right click on my computer and then click properties then you have to click on some other tab and then click on device manager. Hmm ubuntu or any "easy to use" linux OS has a menu that you click on. Then there is an option for settings then devices. Its all in drop down menu's, not an assortment of right click menu's, drop down menu's and tabs.


By elpresidente2075 on 12/5/2007 1:25:26 AM , Rating: 3
OR you just right click on My Computer and click manage...


RE: apple better watch out.
By StevoLincolnite on 12/5/2007 2:34:42 AM , Rating: 3
There are several ways to get things done quickly and easily in Windows, You don't have to go through right clicking "My Computer" etc. Just go into Control Panel.
Or... Use the Run Commands, or if you grew up in the World Of DOS and Windows 3.11 you can use the Dos Commands to launch something you desire.

I upgraded my Granny's machine from Windows 95 to Windows XP (She plays allot of games and writes letters) took her about a day to work everything out, and she was away.


RE: apple better watch out.
By exanimas on 12/7/2007 3:30:05 PM , Rating: 2
You call Run>devmgmt.msc unintuitive? Next you'll tell me you couldn't figure out Event Viewer was eventvwr.msc /dumbsarcasm


RE: apple better watch out.
By Ksyder on 12/6/2007 11:17:51 AM , Rating: 2
I can think of one example of where the command line is required in a modern Linux installation... Just a few days ago I needed Java installed for Firefox in Kubuntu 7.04. Unfortunately it is still not as simple as point and click in Windows. Having to figure out things such as root access, sudo commands and the terminal in order to install Java can definitely be tricky for the non-nerd. Luckily, aat least Sun has detailed instructions including the commands required to perform the install.


RE: apple better watch out.
By mindless1 on 12/4/2007 2:32:32 PM , Rating: 4
Actually, a lot of the veteran windows users would pop up a command prompt to do an ipconfig et al. from time to time as well, or "run" a services.msc, etc, etc.

It's pretty much BS that windows is much easier, you just learned it and not 'nix so you can now use it easier. That's justification enough for your needs, to use windows, but it doesn't validate your argument if taken outside of a subjective context.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
Forget it. It's pointless to argue. I'm starting to get down-rated for even attempting to shed some light on a topic that obviously pretty obscure around here.

Can masher please post a blog so I can be friends with people around here again =)


RE: apple better watch out.
By gumbi18 on 12/4/2007 5:11:24 PM , Rating: 1
cochy I agree with you. As a long time Windows user both professionally and personally, I would say that there is a fear of change in the industry. People are comfortable with what they have been taught and fear what has not been taught.

As for myself I came onto the Linux scene relatively late and am still learning. It has not been a hard process at all to learn how to use another OS. I believe that in terms of usability GNOME is way ahead of Windows, that's just my opinion though. And the synaptic manager within debian based distro's is a hell of a lot easier to use to find programs that you are looking for then trawling the web for hours looking for a program for Windows.

I am suprised by the amount of negativity towards Linux itself on a site such as Daily Tech, I would have though the readers may have had more enlightened views. Not just single mindedness.


RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 5:28:12 PM , Rating: 5
Regardless of how easy to use you find it, or how much you enjoy learning, It doesn't change the fact that it is an unpredictable and unsupported OS.

Doing something in Ubuntu that works predictably does not translate to doing something that works in Slackware, or red hat, or Suse.

Answer this honestly. If people are having trouble with the learning curve between Vista and XP and hating change that much, how do you expect them to cope with the change of using Ubuntu. Or even worse when what they learned in Ubuntu doesn't work at all in Suse the way they learned in Ubuntu.

It would be a wonderful world if computer users were all up to the technical level of someone able to master multiple Linux distros. They aren't though and most likely never will be as an average.


RE: apple better watch out.
By shamgar03 on 12/4/2007 6:13:15 PM , Rating: 3
I would say its not unpredictables, and it doesn't have to be unsupported. If dell and several other vendors all start pushing a certain configuration there could become a ubiquitous standard of how things are expected to be setup. Where would this leave those who like Linux the way it is? Exactly where they are. Since Linux is so easy to modify everyone can have their own window manager and there can still be a standard that "regular" people can use.

The interesting thing is that desktops like GNOME and KDE make things much more standard across linux distro's. If you install one of the easy linux installers things look pretty similar and the package managers really are pretty easy if you use the graphical ones. I use gentoo so I wouldn't know though.


RE: apple better watch out.
By JoeBanana on 12/5/2007 3:15:18 AM , Rating: 2
Try some easy distro first. Why would you keep changing your distro. Noone needs to be familiar with all the distros(or two). You just need one distro for everyday work.

And if you haven't seen the computer yet your learning curve is the same at least than for windows and if you have your learning curve will be also the same but you will curse linux because you are used to windows.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Etern205 on 12/4/2007 6:23:24 PM , Rating: 4
The negative feedback to linux isn't because we're mindless it's because most of us had tried it and compare it to Windows and Mac. Comparing to it, in terms of support Windows and Mac takes the stand while linux does not. When comparing different types of OSes you'll have to put yourself in a business standpoint. Not just because you know how to use it means it's easy for everyone else.


RE: apple better watch out.
By semo on 12/5/2007 7:16:48 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Not just because you know how to use it means it's easy for everyone else.
that reminds me of people that say things like "if i can be a millionaire then everyone can; now buy my book"

chapter 1: how to become rich by selling "how to become rich" books.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Etern205 on 12/5/2007 2:30:34 PM , Rating: 2
Like that stupid book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki

Borrowed it, read the first few chapters and all it talks about is BS.

What is it? To become rich you have to take risk!
Start investing, learn accounting, people who are rich are
those that have their own business, why work for money when money can work for you? Blah blah blah.

I'm glad I didn't spend money on that stupid POS or else he'll get richer than before.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 7:22:12 PM , Rating: 3
I'm surprised as well. I may be a bit argumentative at times, But the reactions to my posts speak for themselves. I never put down Windows or said people that use it should get a clue. Cause that's crazy I'm writing this on Windows machine and think it's great.


RE: apple better watch out.
By JoeBanana on 12/5/2007 3:07:30 AM , Rating: 2
I agree.And the fact is that linux users have tried a lot of different OSs(usually at least two) and windows users grew up with one...


RE: apple better watch out.
By mikeyD95125 on 12/4/2007 8:57:22 PM , Rating: 2
I usually ignore ratings. A lot of the time people down-rate or up-rate based on personal bias instead of the overall intelligence of the post.

Although the +4,5,6 posts are usually very insightful or funny.


RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 9:06:17 PM , Rating: 1
Sweating over ratings is a waste of time.

They are about as valuable as your standing in a highschool clique. I personaly find it amusing because I can watch with regularity when my personal "fans" come on and go rate down all my posts in sequence. You can see where they ran out of votes in the thread as they went through the list.

Just say what you mean and don't let anyone elses ability to put a gold star on it(or take one away) influence your opinion.


RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 2:54:22 PM , Rating: 5
People use the command line for ipconfig because the repair connection tool that microsoft built into XP has never worked right.

There was a nice little release renew tool in 98 that was easy enough for a child to use called winipcfg.

Ironicaly the much maligned Vista has a connection repair that works flawlessly, no need to type ipconfig ever again. This is something I apreciate greatly every time a vista user calls in and i get to say, right click and select repair connection, and it actualy works.

No more shouting ION PETER CHARLIE OMEGA NANCY etc to a deaf person over the phone six consecutive times in a row before you ask them to put their kid on the phone.


RE: apple better watch out.
By StevoLincolnite on 12/5/2007 2:38:24 AM , Rating: 2
I Personally use "Ipconfig /all" to get the I.P Address of ADSL routers so I can Reboot them or fix an issue.
Because here (Not sure about other places) Routers have different I.P Addresses in order to gain access, and it is the quickest and easiest way to gain access.
Dos still has its uses...


RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/5/2007 9:33:25 AM , Rating: 2
Most people will never have to see a command line in an OS like Vista.

I use the dos box as well on occasion, but I would rather not have to tell an inexperienced user how to use it.

Routers are displayed in the network page in Vista as well.(the equivalent of the network neighborhood) So you can just double click and log in.

Unless you are telnetting or something, but then you aren't an average home user most likely.


RE: apple better watch out.
By smitty3268 on 12/4/2007 1:54:06 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Where are your programs stored? Program Files.

/usr/bin? More to the point, why should you have to know where they're stored?

quote:
Where do you add a printer? Add a Printer in the Control Panel.

Control Center -> Printers... In fact, my last desktop even had a printer icon on the desktop by default, which when double clicked launched the printer management app that let you add printers.

quote:
I don't know about you but I hate the command line.

I haven't had to use the command line at all, except for using VMWare. Which admittedly wasn't very simple. Still using Firefox, email client, video editor, torrent client, video player, flash, reading pdfs, etc. has all been done without going to the command line even once.

quote:
My dad is computer illiterate. He can barely use Windows. If I put Linux in front of him, he'd probably have a heart attack.

I'm not saying linux is actually easier than windows, but it is actually very close right now. The main thing is that it is different, and so if your dad knows Windows already then it may be difficult to switch. But I'd say the same thing about going to a Mac, and if he really has no clue how to use Windows to start with, then I don't think going to Linux would be nearly as big a shock as you think.


RE: apple better watch out.
By MandrakeQ on 12/4/2007 5:38:11 PM , Rating: 2
If your system components are well supported by Linux open source drivers and/or good proprietary drivers, you're likely to have a much better experience with Linux than someone who has the latest hardware and has to install random drivers of various quality on their own.

Once you have to start compiling kernel modules to get your graphics to work, for instance, you're going to be making heavy use of the command line.

In my experience, getting Linux set up has always been the difficult part. Once that is done, it's pretty much like using Windows.


RE: apple better watch out.
By smitty3268 on 12/4/2007 6:13:18 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure what kernel modules you would be compiling - both ATI/Nvidia drivers have graphical installers these days (which are doing those compiles in the background). In fact, most distros package them in so that you can use the built-in package manager rather than having to go to the vendor website.

Of course, all the open source modules are included by default, so no problems with those.

I did have to compile some for my VMWare install, though, which is what made it somewhat tricky.


RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 1:43:48 PM , Rating: 2
In the past several months I've obtained support from both Microsoft as well as Dell on separate issues. I didn't pay any extra for the support - it is included with my original purchases. Professional support is included with commercial software purchases - which is exactly my point.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 1:49:04 PM , Rating: 1
Yes and would Dell support your Dell w/ Ubuntu. As previously mentioned Red Hat, Conanical and Novell will all support your Linux if you pay for support. Linux is commercially available as well if you CHOOSE it.

We are consumers people, don't we appreciate CHOICE anymore??


RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 2:02:08 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, that sounds fun - getting support for a computer from two different vendors. Who is responsible for hardware driver problems? What about problems where it is not clear whether it is a software or hardware issue? I can see the finger-pointing a mile away.

No, thanks; I'll take my single point of contact support - the OEM - any day of the week.

We are consumers people, we don't appreciate SIMPLICITY anymore? (sorry, just had to say that)


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:06:08 PM , Rating: 2
Ok. If you Linux PC came from an OEM (ie. Dell or other) they will be your single point of contact for all your problems.

If you DIY your Windows PC then your support is from Microsoft if it's Windows or Nvidia if it's your video card or Epson etc.

Where has your argument gone man? =)


RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:29:39 PM , Rating: 2
Dell is the second largest PC OEM. They support Ubuntu on desktops and Red Hat on Servers. As the popularity grows so will the amount of OEMs building and supporting these systems.

Here's is a quote from HP the largest PC OEM:

quote:
HP does a lot more than talk about open source--we're a solutions provider, active user, and a longstanding supporter of the community that drives it. Today, more than 2,500 developers across the company are focused on Linux and open source projects. Over 6,500 service professionals worldwide are involved in the implementation and support of Linux and open source projects. And HP has over 200 shipping products with embedded open source software.


http://opensource.hp.com/?jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN

I'm sure you'll be able to buy a desktop from HP with Linux on it quite soon.


RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:34:27 PM , Rating: 2
lol i don't understand.

I'm talking about Linux not distros. If I want a Linux PC from Dell it will have Ubuntu on it and not OpenSuse. The point is I'm still getting an OEM supported Linux PC, which was my argument.

I don't get this anti-Linux phobia coming from a lot of intelligent PC users.


RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 8:10:41 PM , Rating: 5
It isn't linux phobia, it's realism.

You can do awesome things with linux, and when you learn to use it it is going to make you feel more intelligent, like you've acomplished something.

At the end of the day when that sense of accomplishment wears off your left with finding a use for this linux loaded system.

If you want to browse the web, type a letter, get on an instant message program, or do any mundane common task your fine. If you want to install simply accounting, photoshop, maya, or any other series of powerful and usefull windows apps, good luck. You can go request on some forum and try to find a bug ridden open source version that tries to do the same thing.

If a third party player were to come along and make an alternative to windows OS based on linux along the lines of OSX it could go somewhere, but remember theres a reason beyond control that OSX is only available for mac. Testing and support. Huge huge overhead. Apple has about 5 hardware configurations to worry about and Leopard is having more than a few issues, multiply that to 500 hardware configurations and offer a guarantee that this product is going to work and back it up with free support. More daunting still. I know I wouldn't want to be on the other end of the phone trying to support any current linux distro.

When you sit down, look at things and think it over, expecting the open souce model to ever become commonplace and widely used is just a fantasy. Companies pay prices like 20k per processor for high end software because it's supported for that cost. Telling those kinds of people to go look it up on a wiki or ask on a message board and hope someone writes a feature for you in 6 months just isn't going to cut it.

Sell a supported tested version and that might be a different story, thats just what companies like novel are doing(with microsoft dipping their fingers in quite greedily as well) Expecting the dream of free software to ever prosper is hopeless.


RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 8:22:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Expecting the dream of free software to ever prosper is hopeless


How can you make a comment like that? To ever? Hopeless? That's a pretty presumptuous comment. It's also been echoed more than a few times in this thread. How can someone possibly know what the software industry will be like in 10-20 years from now. Look at how it's changed in the past 20 years. To think that the current business model is immune to any kind of drastic change is nonsense.


RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 8:33:25 PM , Rating: 2
How has it changed. Microsoft was selling dos 20 years ago, now they are selling Windows. At the end of the day the product that is payed for is going to be of a higher quality level, thats just reality.

I remember going to a lan about 10 years ago, there was one of the linux kids there at the time and listening to the guy, man, nothing has changed. Linux die hards were saying the same thing then that they are saying now. It hasn't gone anywhere. Waiting for that mass exodus of so called angry Vista users to go to linux is waiting for snow in hell.

The users that aren't using Vista are using XP, not Linux.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Etern205 on 12/4/2007 4:24:07 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah Dell does sell linux systems, but have you see how much they charge for linux support?

It's cost more to support linux than Windows.


RE: apple better watch out.
By mindless1 on 12/4/2007 2:35:08 PM , Rating: 3
You need to recognize that his arguments are always tailored to support MS, not logic.


RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 3:14:45 PM , Rating: 1
That's ironic coming from you. :o)


RE: apple better watch out.
By Yawgm0th on 12/4/2007 4:13:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The argument that Windows is more "usable" or "intuitive" than Linux is pure FUD. It may seem that way to someone more familiar with Windows and that's the ONLY reason. So to each their own I say. If they used Linux before using Windows then it would seem the other way around. To those of us who have used PCs since MS-DOS and before, going from Windows to Linux now shouldn't be unintuitive at all.

Sorry, but no. I can't remember the last time I had to go into a command line interface to get something done in Windows. I really can't. I prefer to do some thing in a command line, but ultimately a graphic interface is infinitely easier to use and more intuitive. Even the latest versions of the most popular distributions do not solve this.

Most people have not used computers extensively before Windows became popular. Even those who have will probably not find Linux altogether intuitive. Using MS-DOS is only similar to using a terminal in Linux in that they are command line interfaces.

Finally, you lack serious IT knowledge if you think Linux offers a better "multiuser" system. Netware is a Novell product, not a Linux-based one, which provides a decent crossplatform directory services for Windows, Linux, and Mac OS. Active directory is superior in most network environments. If you are talking about using Linux and Samba as a superior alternative to Active Directory, you are seriously misguided.


RE: apple better watch out.
By 16nm on 12/4/2007 1:34:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The best hope for Linux is for a large player to productize it.


You mean like Apple Computer has?


RE: apple better watch out.
By omnicronx on 12/4/2007 1:51:14 PM , Rating: 2
FreeBSD != Linux

OSX = FreeBSD

Therefor.. OSX != Linux

What a world it would be if an OS that pre dates linux, was actually based upon it.. Maybe Steve Jobs has a time machine? Anyone?


RE: apple better watch out.
By 16nm on 12/4/2007 8:38:59 PM , Rating: 2
Linux is UNIX
OS X is UNIX

Linux apps can be recompiled to run on OS X. OS X == Linux == UNIX. It's all the same. Windows, however, is a different system, with core concepts modeled after DEC VMS.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Yawgm0th on 12/4/2007 4:23:46 PM , Rating: 2
See above post. Apple does not use or productize Linux.

More importantly, a number of larger players in the industry do. Novell, HP, Dell, RedHat, along with dozens of manufacturers of consumer electronics, cell phones, networking equipment, etc.


RE: apple better watch out.
By smitty3268 on 12/4/2007 1:44:15 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't that what Novell and Red Hat do? They don't tell you to go read message boards, they charge you hundreds of dollars and then give you VIP service where you can call in and get help.

The biggest problem is that it just isn't mainstream yet, and it's hard to break into the market. The other one is that all the distros are slightly different and changing at a high rate, meaning it is difficult for proprietary vendors to support the entire linux market.


RE: apple better watch out.
By omnicronx on 12/4/2007 1:56:45 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry to tell you but its mainstream. Its just not marketed towards you and I. Its aimed towards those using Red Hat / Novell running servers. It just does not make sense for the average user to pay for support, especially when the OS is free, and those using it are usually technologically savvy.
I have worked at 3-4 places that currently use Novell servers, and each place had payed for support ;).


RE: apple better watch out.
By Talcite on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:38:26 PM , Rating: 3
Man, I don't even know where to start, but you live in an alternate reality or something.

I clean up Windows computers daily of spyware and viruses. The fact is, if you have them, you have them because you infected your computer with them.

I would reformat my own system at the sign of a Virus, an event that has never happened. I would not do so on a customers computer unless it's so bad it's unnecessary. 90% of the time it's easy to clean up a simple spyware infestation. If you are In any way compitent that is.

I have tried many of the "mainstream user" distros of Linux IE ubuntu, and found them not surprisingly lacking.

Take your own advice before spewing garbage, which thus far is all you have done.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Screwballl on 12/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: apple better watch out.
By SoCalBoomer on 12/4/2007 1:36:59 PM , Rating: 3
Unfortunately, you're not placing context into your little (highly inaccurate and biased) table.

Why is it that Linux is 98.9/.1/1 ? Perhaps it's because of the sophistication of the users. . . added to the obscurity of the OS (i.e. there's not a lot of them out there) - so OBVIOUSLY there are going to be more problems with an OS which is used by everyone from Mom(r) to an Admin (like myself)

Attitudes like yours really are a detriment to Linux and the entire movement. But I guess you like it that way. You WANT to trumpet the strengths of Linux but then to deride those who don't want to open a Term window and explore the etc folder but rather would like to double-click on a control panel located in a central location with all the other control panels.

Elitism can be your death knell.

To use your own hyperbolized figures, 95% of users out there are NOT sophisticated enough to deal with Linux. I would even say that the vast majority of them are not even sophisticated enough for Windows (one reason why they are moving toward OSX, with their over-simplified interface which relies upon little pictures instead of words - note to Steve Jobs: I CAN READ. . .and words take up less space when stacked than do icons!)

Were we to move even a FEW of those 95% over to Linux, we'd have screwed up OS's, device driver issues, and a lot of pain - and a quick migration back to Mac/Windows.

So, please, get over your hyperbole and your rhetoric.

Please also get some facts straight.

Until then you're solely a joke. Unfunny one, but still, a joke.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 2:35:23 PM , Rating: 1
With almost all distros, you can double click into the folder structure as needed even on a limited account (of course make no changes), under a root account you can go in and change and edit it just as you can in windows. There is no need to go into the CLI typing up 5 different commands just to add one line to the xorg.conf file.
Once it is installed, a LOT more users can use Linux quite easily (but choose not to). Since most distros automatically disable or make the root account invisible and create a regular user account (unlike windows that automatically makes it admin), it should be usable without the chance of them really screwing something up. As most people do not need a root or power user account, simply sitting down and teaching them the basics over 30-45 minutes, they should be able to get online to websites, get email, use Open Office and play some bundled games. Thats all that a majority of people do anyways so your 95% number is seriously skewed. Linux is making their system accessible and usable to the mainstream, not just big headed linux geeks like yourself. Whether it is windows or linux, you and I are the tech that can fix it, but thats whats great, linux should not need any fixing, just teaching how to use certain things. Windows users need a fix, linux users need to learn. Better to have a secure system you can learn from than a broken system that continuously needs repair.

98.9% of all problems you may have on linux is due to user error, not due to security issues or OS bugs. I think you just read that wrong.


RE: apple better watch out.
By JustTom on 12/4/2007 1:45:13 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
A computer can be infected or crashed due to a combination of factors, in most cases it is either user error, system bugs or a lack of security from the OS itself:
Vista 20% user error, 20% security, 60% bugs
XP 60% user 25% security, 15% bugs
OSX 70% user, 20% security, 10% bugs
Linux 98.9% user, 0.1% security, 1% bugs

This is an overall generalized basis but it explains my point


Translation: I just made the data up to support my viewpoint.


RE: apple better watch out.
By MrPickins on 12/4/2007 2:17:34 PM , Rating: 3
93.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.


RE: apple better watch out.
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 2:59:18 PM , Rating: 2
yes I did just make it up but it is simply to make a point which flew way over your head... the numbers were made up, fictional, fake but used to prove a point. Why does everything here have to be hard facts from XYZ Statistics Inc.???

Let me make this simple for you :

Over half (60%) of the problems with Vista is due to system bugs, the other half is due to user error or security issues (20/20%)

Most of the problems with XP are user error because most of the security and OS issues have been fixed

Most of the problems with OSX is due to user error since the system does seem a bit more secure than XP overall.

Almost all problems with Linux is due to the user messing something up. The OS has almost no OS bugs and is only a security problem if the user opens it up.


RE: apple better watch out.
By JustTom on 12/5/2007 12:28:46 AM , Rating: 2
I understood your point, I might even agree with it however fake statistics are worse than meaningless. If your point is that Linux systems are inherently less problematic than Windows sysmtems simply say so with concrete examples of why this is, unless such an endeavor is:
quote:
way over your head
. Resorting to made up statistics is lazy.


RE: apple better watch out.
By BMFPitt on 12/7/2007 10:51:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
yes I did just make it up but it is simply to make a point which flew way over your head... the numbers were made up, fictional, fake but used to prove a point.
That may be the most hilarious quote I have ever read on DT.


RE: apple better watch out.
By tanishalfelven on 12/5/2007 1:48:59 AM , Rating: 1
quote:

quote:
A computer can be infected or crashed due to a combination of factors, in most cases it is either user error, system bugs or a lack of security from the OS itself:
Vista 20% user error, 20% security, 60% bugs
XP 60% user 25% security, 15% bugs
OSX 70% user, 20% security, 10% bugs
Linux 98.9% user, 0.1% security, 1% bugs

This is an overall generalized basis but it explains my point

Translation: I just made the data up to support my viewpoint.


i heard great work is going on in the ass to thesis department.


RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:47:39 PM , Rating: 3
Try telling customers to go look at wiki's and message boards when they have a problem and see how far that gets you.

People simply want to be able to pick up a phone and have someone handle the problem, thats why they pay for a supported product.


RE: apple better watch out.
By thornburg on 12/4/2007 1:10:49 PM , Rating: 2
I've seen this comment a million times on forums around the web... but the who the heck actually calls MICROSOFT?

I know about 3 people who have ever called Microsoft for anything other than product activation.

Sure, they want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone, but that isn't why they buy a supported product, it is why they buy a mainstream product--so they can call the 3 most helpful geeks they know if/when they have a problem.

The next hurdle Linux (and Mac) need to overcome is having enough geeks around who are willing to help out. The