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Microsoft will take the fight to pirates with new security features in Vista SP1

Microsoft has big plans in store for its Windows Vista operating system. The company released a release candidate version of Service Pack 1 (SP1) for Windows Vista in mid-November. SP1 is supposed to address a number of performance-related issues with Vista and includes a number of security update and bug fixes that have been rolled out since the operating system launched over a year ago.

In addition to the previously mentioned SP1 features, Microsoft is looking to make pirating Vista a tougher endeavor. The Redmond, Washington-based company says that new measures introduced with SP1 will further reduce piracy -- piracy for Vista is already less than half that of Windows XP according to Microsoft.

One loophole that Microsoft will close is the current method of extending the "grace period" to activate Vista. Original versions of the exploit allowed users to extend the grace period from 30 days to 120 days. Later variations of the hack extended the grace period to a full year, while yet another extended the grace period to the year 2099.

"Under this new system, no features will be disabled. Instead it will be a notification-based experience similar in some ways to what we have done with XP. A user of a system that has not been activated and gone through the 30-day grace period to activate will, when logging in on the 31st day, see a dialog box on a plain black background," said Microsoft group product manager Alex Kochis.

"That will give them two options: Activate Windows now, which will bring up all the options to do this, and activate Windows later, which takes them directly to their desktop, which will be exactly the same as it had been the last time they used it, except that there will be a plain black background and a message in the lower right hand corner over the system tray telling them that their copy of Windows is not genuine," Kochis continued.

Microsoft will also put a stop to the OEM BIOS exploit which allows unscrupulous Vista pirates to edit systems files and a motherboard's BIOS to fool Windows into thinking that it is installed in a genuine OEM system.

These latest additions to Vista, however, will do little to quell those who continue to rally behind Microsoft's venerable Windows XP operating system. Due to customer demand, Microsoft extended the shelf life of Windows XP and has given OEMs the ability to provide Windows XP downgrades for customers who are unhappy with their new Windows Vista-based machines. In addition, recent testing has shown that Vista SP1 is no match for Windows XP SP3 in OfficeBench performance which gotten much play around the web.

Not surprisingly, Apple has pounced on Microsoft's Vista woes and has a number of television commercials which poke fun at Vista's "inferiority" to Windows XP.

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apple better watch out.
By michal1980 on 12/4/2007 11:42:28 AM , Rating: 5
dont poke, when your own leopard update is causing people problems. like 'cough' blue screen of death 'cough'

RE: apple better watch out.
By DM0407 on 12/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:04:12 PM , Rating: 5
How about in actual usability, because that is why Windows sells, not gaming.

Linux will never be mainstream because Linux will never be predictably and properly supported.

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 12:27:48 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly. What "geeks" don't seem to get is that the problem with Linux is not the software itself, but the business model. Windows is successful because you have a very large organization selling it and supporting it. With Linux, you have volunteers on message boards. Not exactly the same thing.

The best hope for Linux is for a large player to productize it. Grassroots isn't going to cut it against Windows.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 1:32:44 PM , Rating: 4
Do you think the average PC user ever uses Microsoft's support? Have you ever called up Microsoft's support hot-line? Last I checked getting support from Microsoft cost money, I could be wrong now, so please correct me. Also, wouldn't buying a Dell system pre-installed with Ubuntu as well as Dell extended support and warranty cover your Linux support?

Anyway I'm tired of this Windows vs. Linux crap already. IMO they are both excellent systems. Windows makes an excellent desktop OS. The only reason to use Linux on an everyday PC would be

1) price (Linux is free)
2) hardware reqs. (Linux can run easily on low system sepcs)
3) You don't want to worry about Malware.

For a server or a multiuser system, Linux offers a much better solution IMO. I use Linux, Netware and Windows on a daily basis.

The argument that Windows is more "usable" or "intuitive" than Linux is pure FUD. It may seem that way to someone more familiar with Windows and that's the ONLY reason. So to each their own I say. If they used Linux before using Windows then it would seem the other way around. To those of us who have used PCs since MS-DOS and before, going from Windows to Linux now shouldn't be unintuitive at all.

RE: apple better watch out.
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 1:39:12 PM , Rating: 3
I don't know about you but I hate the command line. Windows is popular because its simple. There's no question of where things are. Where are your programs stored? Program Files. Where do you add a printer? Add a Printer in the Control Panel. My dad is computer illiterate. He can barely use Windows. If I put Linux in front of him, he'd probably have a heart attack.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 1:51:41 PM , Rating: 3
Oh /opt. Of course. That's so clear. I forgot that the entire world is taught POSIX standards in grade school. How silly of me.

And you still have to do a lot of things through a terminal(aka, the command line) in Linux inside of XWindows, Gnome, etc.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:14:36 PM , Rating: 4
Thank you for proving my whole point.

/opt is not intuitive to you because your not used to it. It's not more or less intuitive than Windows. People are just not used to using it. For me all it took was "oh it's /opt, that's not hard to remember". It's honestly not difficult. It's not taught in grade school? Maybe it will be. Give it time, Linux has come a great ways since the mid 90s when it started. Dell is coming on board slowly. Grade Schools should be coming on board. Linux is far better suited for the class room than Windows. Ubuntu is making a push toward the classroom with edubuntu.

If you think you *need* to use the terminal to function "a lot" of Linux then that's your own misconception. I could be wrong maybe. Can you list some things? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

RE: apple better watch out.
By leexgx on 12/4/2007 2:36:01 PM , Rating: 3
I am an supporter of Linux but if there are Simple problems that come up you end up having to use the command line and type some obscure long command in to mount an disk or do other things

allot of simple things i find that i have an go at and find after 2-3 mins of using it i hit roadblocks that make me having to hunt for howtos

Ubuntu is good simple OS but if you want to use GUI to mess with stuff i do not recommend it
Mandrake (mandrivra?) 2008 seems to work well loads of GUI config options (auto update is off by default and is very confusing to turn on the repo's back on)

windows just works all users will end up doing is not installing Vista SP1, as i change hardware allot i use the OEM patch my self (i own vista Ultimate Key and the 64Bit Vista DVD) but if used my vista disk id be ringing M$ allot or have to buy more keys that i am not going to be doing

Vista is not my Prim boot on my pc (XP is) sp1 will give me an reason to format my other RAID 0 array in my pc

RE: apple better watch out.
By erikejw on 12/4/2007 11:28:10 PM , Rating: 4
"dont poke, when your own leopard update is causing people problems. like 'cough' blue screen of death 'cough'"

Never ever poke a Leopard, it might poke you back


RE: apple better watch out.
By PandaBear on 12/5/2007 6:40:46 PM , Rating: 3
This is the best post in the entire thread.

RE: apple better watch out.
By MrPickins on 12/4/2007 2:44:32 PM , Rating: 5
Are you seriously arguing that "/opt" is more intuitive than "Program Files"?

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:14:50 PM , Rating: 4
Ok my last post cause no one listens or understands they just assume and down rate based on bias. I never it's more intuitive. It said neither is more or less than the other. You're just used to Windows thats it.

/opt stands for Optional Software packages. ie. 3rd party programs.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:20:52 PM , Rating: 3
Sorry for the typos. I was on the phone lol

The second and third sentence should read:

"I never said it's more intuitive. I said neither is more or less than the other"

RE: apple better watch out.
By isorfir on 12/4/2007 4:19:02 PM , Rating: 4
That's ok, I'm sure the person you were talking to on the phone was just as confused.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 5:08:57 PM , Rating: 2
lol no actually I was cause I was barely paying attention to them.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Nekrik on 12/4/2007 6:44:50 PM , Rating: 5
I'm pretty late getting into this conversation but wanted to share a few ideas, they may be very wrong, but it's my perception.

If you've never seen a PC, then both Windows and Linux/Unix/BSD/etc... will be pretty confusing and could be difficult to even use for many people. Attempting to troubleshoot one or add/remove hardware, especially hardware that does not have drivers included in the base installation of the OS, could be a nightmare.

Linux is a great OS for what it does/can do, but I don't think it has the same target audience as Windows (and for that matter, neither does OSX). For each OSes' target market they are doing pretty well, but none of them are happy letting another have any market share at all. If Linux wants to push Windows out of their current PC market share they need to reduce it down to a few (like 5-8 at the most) flavors, 700+ does nothing but fragment their users and make it nearly impossible for any one flavor to suceed. Problem here is that if you reduce it down to a few major distros you have just taken away the massive flexibilty and one of the primary benifits of the OS, it can be customized, so much so that theoretically every person running it could all have their very own version, some could be compatible with others, but some also would have very different requirements. Having 5-8 means they could be tested for compatibilty across the line and support would be easier. It seems a lot of Linux users are pretty quick to attack each other when it comes to the superior distro, a consensus among Linus users needs to be made before trying to acquire others into what looks to be a fairly disorganized situation.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Nekrik on 12/5/2007 12:59:04 AM , Rating: 3
"...a consensus among Linus users..."

In the last sentence of my other post there is a typo, Linus should be Linux, but it's kinda a funny typo :).

RE: apple better watch out.
By kmmatney on 12/4/2007 4:36:15 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, but that's not obvious. I've been a computer enthusiast for 25 years and have tried Linux since the early days, but still find it a pain in the rear when trying to do anything beyond the basics.

RE: apple better watch out.
By shamgar03 on 12/4/2007 6:05:44 PM , Rating: 4
Funny I can't use windows for anything BUT the basics. Have you ever considered how unintuitive Device Manager is? Where is device manager? Ohh, wait duh. You right click on my computer and then click properties then you have to click on some other tab and then click on device manager. Hmm ubuntu or any "easy to use" linux OS has a menu that you click on. Then there is an option for settings then devices. Its all in drop down menu's, not an assortment of right click menu's, drop down menu's and tabs.

By elpresidente2075 on 12/5/2007 1:25:26 AM , Rating: 3
OR you just right click on My Computer and click manage...

RE: apple better watch out.
By StevoLincolnite on 12/5/2007 2:34:42 AM , Rating: 3
There are several ways to get things done quickly and easily in Windows, You don't have to go through right clicking "My Computer" etc. Just go into Control Panel.
Or... Use the Run Commands, or if you grew up in the World Of DOS and Windows 3.11 you can use the Dos Commands to launch something you desire.

I upgraded my Granny's machine from Windows 95 to Windows XP (She plays allot of games and writes letters) took her about a day to work everything out, and she was away.

RE: apple better watch out.
By exanimas on 12/7/2007 3:30:05 PM , Rating: 2
You call Run>devmgmt.msc unintuitive? Next you'll tell me you couldn't figure out Event Viewer was eventvwr.msc /dumbsarcasm

RE: apple better watch out.
By Ksyder on 12/6/2007 11:17:51 AM , Rating: 2
I can think of one example of where the command line is required in a modern Linux installation... Just a few days ago I needed Java installed for Firefox in Kubuntu 7.04. Unfortunately it is still not as simple as point and click in Windows. Having to figure out things such as root access, sudo commands and the terminal in order to install Java can definitely be tricky for the non-nerd. Luckily, aat least Sun has detailed instructions including the commands required to perform the install.

RE: apple better watch out.
By mindless1 on 12/4/2007 2:32:32 PM , Rating: 4
Actually, a lot of the veteran windows users would pop up a command prompt to do an ipconfig et al. from time to time as well, or "run" a services.msc, etc, etc.

It's pretty much BS that windows is much easier, you just learned it and not 'nix so you can now use it easier. That's justification enough for your needs, to use windows, but it doesn't validate your argument if taken outside of a subjective context.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
Forget it. It's pointless to argue. I'm starting to get down-rated for even attempting to shed some light on a topic that obviously pretty obscure around here.

Can masher please post a blog so I can be friends with people around here again =)

RE: apple better watch out.
By gumbi18 on 12/4/2007 5:11:24 PM , Rating: 1
cochy I agree with you. As a long time Windows user both professionally and personally, I would say that there is a fear of change in the industry. People are comfortable with what they have been taught and fear what has not been taught.

As for myself I came onto the Linux scene relatively late and am still learning. It has not been a hard process at all to learn how to use another OS. I believe that in terms of usability GNOME is way ahead of Windows, that's just my opinion though. And the synaptic manager within debian based distro's is a hell of a lot easier to use to find programs that you are looking for then trawling the web for hours looking for a program for Windows.

I am suprised by the amount of negativity towards Linux itself on a site such as Daily Tech, I would have though the readers may have had more enlightened views. Not just single mindedness.

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 5:28:12 PM , Rating: 5
Regardless of how easy to use you find it, or how much you enjoy learning, It doesn't change the fact that it is an unpredictable and unsupported OS.

Doing something in Ubuntu that works predictably does not translate to doing something that works in Slackware, or red hat, or Suse.

Answer this honestly. If people are having trouble with the learning curve between Vista and XP and hating change that much, how do you expect them to cope with the change of using Ubuntu. Or even worse when what they learned in Ubuntu doesn't work at all in Suse the way they learned in Ubuntu.

It would be a wonderful world if computer users were all up to the technical level of someone able to master multiple Linux distros. They aren't though and most likely never will be as an average.

RE: apple better watch out.
By shamgar03 on 12/4/2007 6:13:15 PM , Rating: 3
I would say its not unpredictables, and it doesn't have to be unsupported. If dell and several other vendors all start pushing a certain configuration there could become a ubiquitous standard of how things are expected to be setup. Where would this leave those who like Linux the way it is? Exactly where they are. Since Linux is so easy to modify everyone can have their own window manager and there can still be a standard that "regular" people can use.

The interesting thing is that desktops like GNOME and KDE make things much more standard across linux distro's. If you install one of the easy linux installers things look pretty similar and the package managers really are pretty easy if you use the graphical ones. I use gentoo so I wouldn't know though.

RE: apple better watch out.
By JoeBanana on 12/5/2007 3:15:18 AM , Rating: 2
Try some easy distro first. Why would you keep changing your distro. Noone needs to be familiar with all the distros(or two). You just need one distro for everyday work.

And if you haven't seen the computer yet your learning curve is the same at least than for windows and if you have your learning curve will be also the same but you will curse linux because you are used to windows.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Etern205 on 12/4/2007 6:23:24 PM , Rating: 4
The negative feedback to linux isn't because we're mindless it's because most of us had tried it and compare it to Windows and Mac. Comparing to it, in terms of support Windows and Mac takes the stand while linux does not. When comparing different types of OSes you'll have to put yourself in a business standpoint. Not just because you know how to use it means it's easy for everyone else.

RE: apple better watch out.
By semo on 12/5/2007 7:16:48 AM , Rating: 5
Not just because you know how to use it means it's easy for everyone else.
that reminds me of people that say things like "if i can be a millionaire then everyone can; now buy my book"

chapter 1: how to become rich by selling "how to become rich" books.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Etern205 on 12/5/2007 2:30:34 PM , Rating: 2
Like that stupid book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki

Borrowed it, read the first few chapters and all it talks about is BS.

What is it? To become rich you have to take risk!
Start investing, learn accounting, people who are rich are
those that have their own business, why work for money when money can work for you? Blah blah blah.

I'm glad I didn't spend money on that stupid POS or else he'll get richer than before.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 7:22:12 PM , Rating: 3
I'm surprised as well. I may be a bit argumentative at times, But the reactions to my posts speak for themselves. I never put down Windows or said people that use it should get a clue. Cause that's crazy I'm writing this on Windows machine and think it's great.

RE: apple better watch out.
By JoeBanana on 12/5/2007 3:07:30 AM , Rating: 2
I agree.And the fact is that linux users have tried a lot of different OSs(usually at least two) and windows users grew up with one...

RE: apple better watch out.
By mikeyD95125 on 12/4/2007 8:57:22 PM , Rating: 2
I usually ignore ratings. A lot of the time people down-rate or up-rate based on personal bias instead of the overall intelligence of the post.

Although the +4,5,6 posts are usually very insightful or funny.

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 9:06:17 PM , Rating: 1
Sweating over ratings is a waste of time.

They are about as valuable as your standing in a highschool clique. I personaly find it amusing because I can watch with regularity when my personal "fans" come on and go rate down all my posts in sequence. You can see where they ran out of votes in the thread as they went through the list.

Just say what you mean and don't let anyone elses ability to put a gold star on it(or take one away) influence your opinion.

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 2:54:22 PM , Rating: 5
People use the command line for ipconfig because the repair connection tool that microsoft built into XP has never worked right.

There was a nice little release renew tool in 98 that was easy enough for a child to use called winipcfg.

Ironicaly the much maligned Vista has a connection repair that works flawlessly, no need to type ipconfig ever again. This is something I apreciate greatly every time a vista user calls in and i get to say, right click and select repair connection, and it actualy works.

No more shouting ION PETER CHARLIE OMEGA NANCY etc to a deaf person over the phone six consecutive times in a row before you ask them to put their kid on the phone.

RE: apple better watch out.
By StevoLincolnite on 12/5/2007 2:38:24 AM , Rating: 2
I Personally use "Ipconfig /all" to get the I.P Address of ADSL routers so I can Reboot them or fix an issue.
Because here (Not sure about other places) Routers have different I.P Addresses in order to gain access, and it is the quickest and easiest way to gain access.
Dos still has its uses...

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/5/2007 9:33:25 AM , Rating: 2
Most people will never have to see a command line in an OS like Vista.

I use the dos box as well on occasion, but I would rather not have to tell an inexperienced user how to use it.

Routers are displayed in the network page in Vista as well.(the equivalent of the network neighborhood) So you can just double click and log in.

Unless you are telnetting or something, but then you aren't an average home user most likely.

RE: apple better watch out.
By smitty3268 on 12/4/2007 1:54:06 PM , Rating: 3
Where are your programs stored? Program Files.

/usr/bin? More to the point, why should you have to know where they're stored?

Where do you add a printer? Add a Printer in the Control Panel.

Control Center -> Printers... In fact, my last desktop even had a printer icon on the desktop by default, which when double clicked launched the printer management app that let you add printers.

I don't know about you but I hate the command line.

I haven't had to use the command line at all, except for using VMWare. Which admittedly wasn't very simple. Still using Firefox, email client, video editor, torrent client, video player, flash, reading pdfs, etc. has all been done without going to the command line even once.

My dad is computer illiterate. He can barely use Windows. If I put Linux in front of him, he'd probably have a heart attack.

I'm not saying linux is actually easier than windows, but it is actually very close right now. The main thing is that it is different, and so if your dad knows Windows already then it may be difficult to switch. But I'd say the same thing about going to a Mac, and if he really has no clue how to use Windows to start with, then I don't think going to Linux would be nearly as big a shock as you think.

RE: apple better watch out.
By MandrakeQ on 12/4/2007 5:38:11 PM , Rating: 2
If your system components are well supported by Linux open source drivers and/or good proprietary drivers, you're likely to have a much better experience with Linux than someone who has the latest hardware and has to install random drivers of various quality on their own.

Once you have to start compiling kernel modules to get your graphics to work, for instance, you're going to be making heavy use of the command line.

In my experience, getting Linux set up has always been the difficult part. Once that is done, it's pretty much like using Windows.

RE: apple better watch out.
By smitty3268 on 12/4/2007 6:13:18 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure what kernel modules you would be compiling - both ATI/Nvidia drivers have graphical installers these days (which are doing those compiles in the background). In fact, most distros package them in so that you can use the built-in package manager rather than having to go to the vendor website.

Of course, all the open source modules are included by default, so no problems with those.

I did have to compile some for my VMWare install, though, which is what made it somewhat tricky.

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 1:43:48 PM , Rating: 2
In the past several months I've obtained support from both Microsoft as well as Dell on separate issues. I didn't pay any extra for the support - it is included with my original purchases. Professional support is included with commercial software purchases - which is exactly my point.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 1:49:04 PM , Rating: 1
Yes and would Dell support your Dell w/ Ubuntu. As previously mentioned Red Hat, Conanical and Novell will all support your Linux if you pay for support. Linux is commercially available as well if you CHOOSE it.

We are consumers people, don't we appreciate CHOICE anymore??

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 2:02:08 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, that sounds fun - getting support for a computer from two different vendors. Who is responsible for hardware driver problems? What about problems where it is not clear whether it is a software or hardware issue? I can see the finger-pointing a mile away.

No, thanks; I'll take my single point of contact support - the OEM - any day of the week.

We are consumers people, we don't appreciate SIMPLICITY anymore? (sorry, just had to say that)

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:06:08 PM , Rating: 2
Ok. If you Linux PC came from an OEM (ie. Dell or other) they will be your single point of contact for all your problems.

If you DIY your Windows PC then your support is from Microsoft if it's Windows or Nvidia if it's your video card or Epson etc.

Where has your argument gone man? =)

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:29:39 PM , Rating: 2
Dell is the second largest PC OEM. They support Ubuntu on desktops and Red Hat on Servers. As the popularity grows so will the amount of OEMs building and supporting these systems.

Here's is a quote from HP the largest PC OEM:

HP does a lot more than talk about open source--we're a solutions provider, active user, and a longstanding supporter of the community that drives it. Today, more than 2,500 developers across the company are focused on Linux and open source projects. Over 6,500 service professionals worldwide are involved in the implementation and support of Linux and open source projects. And HP has over 200 shipping products with embedded open source software.

I'm sure you'll be able to buy a desktop from HP with Linux on it quite soon.

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:34:27 PM , Rating: 2
lol i don't understand.

I'm talking about Linux not distros. If I want a Linux PC from Dell it will have Ubuntu on it and not OpenSuse. The point is I'm still getting an OEM supported Linux PC, which was my argument.

I don't get this anti-Linux phobia coming from a lot of intelligent PC users.

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 8:10:41 PM , Rating: 5
It isn't linux phobia, it's realism.

You can do awesome things with linux, and when you learn to use it it is going to make you feel more intelligent, like you've acomplished something.

At the end of the day when that sense of accomplishment wears off your left with finding a use for this linux loaded system.

If you want to browse the web, type a letter, get on an instant message program, or do any mundane common task your fine. If you want to install simply accounting, photoshop, maya, or any other series of powerful and usefull windows apps, good luck. You can go request on some forum and try to find a bug ridden open source version that tries to do the same thing.

If a third party player were to come along and make an alternative to windows OS based on linux along the lines of OSX it could go somewhere, but remember theres a reason beyond control that OSX is only available for mac. Testing and support. Huge huge overhead. Apple has about 5 hardware configurations to worry about and Leopard is having more than a few issues, multiply that to 500 hardware configurations and offer a guarantee that this product is going to work and back it up with free support. More daunting still. I know I wouldn't want to be on the other end of the phone trying to support any current linux distro.

When you sit down, look at things and think it over, expecting the open souce model to ever become commonplace and widely used is just a fantasy. Companies pay prices like 20k per processor for high end software because it's supported for that cost. Telling those kinds of people to go look it up on a wiki or ask on a message board and hope someone writes a feature for you in 6 months just isn't going to cut it.

Sell a supported tested version and that might be a different story, thats just what companies like novel are doing(with microsoft dipping their fingers in quite greedily as well) Expecting the dream of free software to ever prosper is hopeless.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 8:22:48 PM , Rating: 2
Expecting the dream of free software to ever prosper is hopeless

How can you make a comment like that? To ever? Hopeless? That's a pretty presumptuous comment. It's also been echoed more than a few times in this thread. How can someone possibly know what the software industry will be like in 10-20 years from now. Look at how it's changed in the past 20 years. To think that the current business model is immune to any kind of drastic change is nonsense.

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 8:33:25 PM , Rating: 2
How has it changed. Microsoft was selling dos 20 years ago, now they are selling Windows. At the end of the day the product that is payed for is going to be of a higher quality level, thats just reality.

I remember going to a lan about 10 years ago, there was one of the linux kids there at the time and listening to the guy, man, nothing has changed. Linux die hards were saying the same thing then that they are saying now. It hasn't gone anywhere. Waiting for that mass exodus of so called angry Vista users to go to linux is waiting for snow in hell.

The users that aren't using Vista are using XP, not Linux.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Etern205 on 12/4/2007 4:24:07 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah Dell does sell linux systems, but have you see how much they charge for linux support?

It's cost more to support linux than Windows.

RE: apple better watch out.
By mindless1 on 12/4/2007 2:35:08 PM , Rating: 3
You need to recognize that his arguments are always tailored to support MS, not logic.

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 3:14:45 PM , Rating: 1
That's ironic coming from you. :o)

RE: apple better watch out.
By Yawgm0th on 12/4/2007 4:13:50 PM , Rating: 2
The argument that Windows is more "usable" or "intuitive" than Linux is pure FUD. It may seem that way to someone more familiar with Windows and that's the ONLY reason. So to each their own I say. If they used Linux before using Windows then it would seem the other way around. To those of us who have used PCs since MS-DOS and before, going from Windows to Linux now shouldn't be unintuitive at all.

Sorry, but no. I can't remember the last time I had to go into a command line interface to get something done in Windows. I really can't. I prefer to do some thing in a command line, but ultimately a graphic interface is infinitely easier to use and more intuitive. Even the latest versions of the most popular distributions do not solve this.

Most people have not used computers extensively before Windows became popular. Even those who have will probably not find Linux altogether intuitive. Using MS-DOS is only similar to using a terminal in Linux in that they are command line interfaces.

Finally, you lack serious IT knowledge if you think Linux offers a better "multiuser" system. Netware is a Novell product, not a Linux-based one, which provides a decent crossplatform directory services for Windows, Linux, and Mac OS. Active directory is superior in most network environments. If you are talking about using Linux and Samba as a superior alternative to Active Directory, you are seriously misguided.

RE: apple better watch out.
By 16nm on 12/4/2007 1:34:26 PM , Rating: 2
The best hope for Linux is for a large player to productize it.

You mean like Apple Computer has?

RE: apple better watch out.
By omnicronx on 12/4/2007 1:51:14 PM , Rating: 2
FreeBSD != Linux


Therefor.. OSX != Linux

What a world it would be if an OS that pre dates linux, was actually based upon it.. Maybe Steve Jobs has a time machine? Anyone?

RE: apple better watch out.
By 16nm on 12/4/2007 8:38:59 PM , Rating: 2
Linux is UNIX

Linux apps can be recompiled to run on OS X. OS X == Linux == UNIX. It's all the same. Windows, however, is a different system, with core concepts modeled after DEC VMS.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Yawgm0th on 12/4/2007 4:23:46 PM , Rating: 2
See above post. Apple does not use or productize Linux.

More importantly, a number of larger players in the industry do. Novell, HP, Dell, RedHat, along with dozens of manufacturers of consumer electronics, cell phones, networking equipment, etc.

RE: apple better watch out.
By smitty3268 on 12/4/2007 1:44:15 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't that what Novell and Red Hat do? They don't tell you to go read message boards, they charge you hundreds of dollars and then give you VIP service where you can call in and get help.

The biggest problem is that it just isn't mainstream yet, and it's hard to break into the market. The other one is that all the distros are slightly different and changing at a high rate, meaning it is difficult for proprietary vendors to support the entire linux market.

RE: apple better watch out.
By omnicronx on 12/4/2007 1:56:45 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry to tell you but its mainstream. Its just not marketed towards you and I. Its aimed towards those using Red Hat / Novell running servers. It just does not make sense for the average user to pay for support, especially when the OS is free, and those using it are usually technologically savvy.
I have worked at 3-4 places that currently use Novell servers, and each place had payed for support ;).

RE: apple better watch out.
By Talcite on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:38:26 PM , Rating: 3
Man, I don't even know where to start, but you live in an alternate reality or something.

I clean up Windows computers daily of spyware and viruses. The fact is, if you have them, you have them because you infected your computer with them.

I would reformat my own system at the sign of a Virus, an event that has never happened. I would not do so on a customers computer unless it's so bad it's unnecessary. 90% of the time it's easy to clean up a simple spyware infestation. If you are In any way compitent that is.

I have tried many of the "mainstream user" distros of Linux IE ubuntu, and found them not surprisingly lacking.

Take your own advice before spewing garbage, which thus far is all you have done.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Screwballl on 12/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: apple better watch out.
By SoCalBoomer on 12/4/2007 1:36:59 PM , Rating: 3
Unfortunately, you're not placing context into your little (highly inaccurate and biased) table.

Why is it that Linux is 98.9/.1/1 ? Perhaps it's because of the sophistication of the users. . . added to the obscurity of the OS (i.e. there's not a lot of them out there) - so OBVIOUSLY there are going to be more problems with an OS which is used by everyone from Mom(r) to an Admin (like myself)

Attitudes like yours really are a detriment to Linux and the entire movement. But I guess you like it that way. You WANT to trumpet the strengths of Linux but then to deride those who don't want to open a Term window and explore the etc folder but rather would like to double-click on a control panel located in a central location with all the other control panels.

Elitism can be your death knell.

To use your own hyperbolized figures, 95% of users out there are NOT sophisticated enough to deal with Linux. I would even say that the vast majority of them are not even sophisticated enough for Windows (one reason why they are moving toward OSX, with their over-simplified interface which relies upon little pictures instead of words - note to Steve Jobs: I CAN READ. . .and words take up less space when stacked than do icons!)

Were we to move even a FEW of those 95% over to Linux, we'd have screwed up OS's, device driver issues, and a lot of pain - and a quick migration back to Mac/Windows.

So, please, get over your hyperbole and your rhetoric.

Please also get some facts straight.

Until then you're solely a joke. Unfunny one, but still, a joke.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 2:35:23 PM , Rating: 1
With almost all distros, you can double click into the folder structure as needed even on a limited account (of course make no changes), under a root account you can go in and change and edit it just as you can in windows. There is no need to go into the CLI typing up 5 different commands just to add one line to the xorg.conf file.
Once it is installed, a LOT more users can use Linux quite easily (but choose not to). Since most distros automatically disable or make the root account invisible and create a regular user account (unlike windows that automatically makes it admin), it should be usable without the chance of them really screwing something up. As most people do not need a root or power user account, simply sitting down and teaching them the basics over 30-45 minutes, they should be able to get online to websites, get email, use Open Office and play some bundled games. Thats all that a majority of people do anyways so your 95% number is seriously skewed. Linux is making their system accessible and usable to the mainstream, not just big headed linux geeks like yourself. Whether it is windows or linux, you and I are the tech that can fix it, but thats whats great, linux should not need any fixing, just teaching how to use certain things. Windows users need a fix, linux users need to learn. Better to have a secure system you can learn from than a broken system that continuously needs repair.

98.9% of all problems you may have on linux is due to user error, not due to security issues or OS bugs. I think you just read that wrong.

RE: apple better watch out.
By JustTom on 12/4/2007 1:45:13 PM , Rating: 3
A computer can be infected or crashed due to a combination of factors, in most cases it is either user error, system bugs or a lack of security from the OS itself:
Vista 20% user error, 20% security, 60% bugs
XP 60% user 25% security, 15% bugs
OSX 70% user, 20% security, 10% bugs
Linux 98.9% user, 0.1% security, 1% bugs

This is an overall generalized basis but it explains my point

Translation: I just made the data up to support my viewpoint.

RE: apple better watch out.
By MrPickins on 12/4/2007 2:17:34 PM , Rating: 3
93.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 2:59:18 PM , Rating: 2
yes I did just make it up but it is simply to make a point which flew way over your head... the numbers were made up, fictional, fake but used to prove a point. Why does everything here have to be hard facts from XYZ Statistics Inc.???

Let me make this simple for you :

Over half (60%) of the problems with Vista is due to system bugs, the other half is due to user error or security issues (20/20%)

Most of the problems with XP are user error because most of the security and OS issues have been fixed

Most of the problems with OSX is due to user error since the system does seem a bit more secure than XP overall.

Almost all problems with Linux is due to the user messing something up. The OS has almost no OS bugs and is only a security problem if the user opens it up.

RE: apple better watch out.
By JustTom on 12/5/2007 12:28:46 AM , Rating: 2
I understood your point, I might even agree with it however fake statistics are worse than meaningless. If your point is that Linux systems are inherently less problematic than Windows sysmtems simply say so with concrete examples of why this is, unless such an endeavor is:
way over your head
. Resorting to made up statistics is lazy.

RE: apple better watch out.
By BMFPitt on 12/7/2007 10:51:29 AM , Rating: 2
yes I did just make it up but it is simply to make a point which flew way over your head... the numbers were made up, fictional, fake but used to prove a point.
That may be the most hilarious quote I have ever read on DT.

RE: apple better watch out.
By tanishalfelven on 12/5/2007 1:48:59 AM , Rating: 1

A computer can be infected or crashed due to a combination of factors, in most cases it is either user error, system bugs or a lack of security from the OS itself:
Vista 20% user error, 20% security, 60% bugs
XP 60% user 25% security, 15% bugs
OSX 70% user, 20% security, 10% bugs
Linux 98.9% user, 0.1% security, 1% bugs

This is an overall generalized basis but it explains my point

Translation: I just made the data up to support my viewpoint.

i heard great work is going on in the ass to thesis department.

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:47:39 PM , Rating: 3
Try telling customers to go look at wiki's and message boards when they have a problem and see how far that gets you.

People simply want to be able to pick up a phone and have someone handle the problem, thats why they pay for a supported product.

RE: apple better watch out.
By thornburg on 12/4/2007 1:10:49 PM , Rating: 2
I've seen this comment a million times on forums around the web... but the who the heck actually calls MICROSOFT?

I know about 3 people who have ever called Microsoft for anything other than product activation.

Sure, they want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone, but that isn't why they buy a supported product, it is why they buy a mainstream product--so they can call the 3 most helpful geeks they know if/when they have a problem.

The next hurdle Linux (and Mac) need to overcome is having enough geeks around who are willing to help out. The "applications" hurdle is basically passed, mostly due to Open Office.

Note: This does not imply that Linux has better apps than Windows, merely that for 80% or more of people, Open Office is "good enough" as are many other popular open source apps.

RE: apple better watch out.
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 1:48:12 PM , Rating: 2
People don't call Microsoft as much as they do who built their computer. You Linux guru's want everyone to use Linux when 90% of people are afraid of installing RAM. If they can't do that, you think they can properly use Linux?

Sure they'll get it installed. Then they'll go to change a setting in the system and wait....where's the control panel? How do I configure my network card? What? It's a file in /etc/blah/blah? Can I update the driver? I have to compile it? What the hell does that mean? How about my video card? There isn't another driver for it? This is the only one!?!?? Ok I bought Office for it but it won't install. It isn't compatible? Well I've already opened it and the store won't take it back! Ok I want to see the task manager how do I do that....that doesn't exist either?!!? Open a terminal?...Type what?...FU you too!!!....Oh SU my bad.

Yes Linux is a great idea for the common man.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 1:56:06 PM , Rating: 2
I'm starting to repeat myself, but so have you from above =)

You have not turned on a Linux PC since 1995 it seems. There's a control panel in Linux. It's called: Control Panel. It's part of GNOME and KDE.

How do you configure your network card? Go to Control Panel and select NetworkManager. Crazy difficult. I jest.

You don't need to buy Office, your Linux PC comes with Open Office included with the initial installation.

RE: apple better watch out.
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 2:28:55 PM , Rating: 3
Trust me. I've tried Linux. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Yes, part of it is because I'm used to Windows. But you know what? I've got no gripes. I keep my system secure and all those bad issues you Linux boys whine and complain about with Windows, I've never really had. About the only Microsoft "feature" I've ever had annoy me is how Excel AutoFormats data put into a cell and there's nothing you can do about it short of setting the cell format to Text which then imposes a 1024 character limit in the cell.

Everything you can do in Linux, I can do in Windows. And more. And me paying once to enjoy the OS for the next 5-6 years isn't that big a deal to me. Sure, I wish it was cheaper. But people have to be paid. This hippy idea that everything should be free isn't feasible.

Is Windows perfect? No. Is Linux perfect? No. Is OSX perfect? No. I've tried all 3, I still use Windows. Hell even a friend of mine who hates Microsoft uses Windows because he hates Linux even more since its not worth the effort. Also he loves .NET because its a fabulous development environment.

RE: apple better watch out.
By MrPickins on 12/4/2007 2:49:58 PM , Rating: 3
Also he loves .NET because its a fabulous development environment.

That is one very good reason to use Windows, IMO.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:01:02 PM , Rating: 2
Read my above post. I'm just like you. I run Vista Ultimate 64bit edition at home. I've stated I think Windows is an excellent desktop OS. I listed why people might want to use Linux. Our different is I'm not a Linuxophobe. I'm sure we have the same computer skills. Honestly I was a bit put off when I first tried Linux as well, probably because I'm a little bit ADD hehe but I was able to get passed my initial phobia because I was a hardcore Windows GUI man whatever like you. Now I can see all the benefits to all different OSes:


yes even OSX

I'm open to them all and appreciate them all for different applications. I don't whine or complain about any OS. Unless it's pissing me off atm :P

RE: apple better watch out.
By QueBert on 12/6/2007 2:18:35 AM , Rating: 2
not as simple? Last year I installed Ubuntu, I put the LiveCD in, booted too it, clicked the install, told it where to install and it was done in 15 minutes. I did not have to install ONE DRIVER and EVERY ONE of my devices worked, my Sound Blaster, my Nvidia graphics card, my printer, my wireless. I have NEVER installed any Microsoft OS and had every device work out of the box without having to install drivers. When Ubuntu was done installed it rebooted, booted up to Xwindows and I was using it. I wanted a word processor, I clicked on the programs and it asked me what I wanted to install. I selected everything I wanted and oddly enough everything installed with basically 1 click no fiddling around. I won't argue which is easier to use, but Ubuntu is A LOT easier, and faster to install than XP or Vista, and unless you have some crazy odd brand hardware I bet you won't be installing any drivers, unless it's to update them. I will go so far as to say installing Ubuntu was the easiest OS install I've ever had, by far!

RE: apple better watch out.
By Yawgm0th on 12/4/2007 4:36:28 PM , Rating: 2
And when NetworkManager doesn't see my driver what do I do? In Windows I go download an executable file that installs the driver for me or at least gives me an .ini and simple instructions on using the Add New Hardware Wizard to install it.

In Linux I have to go search and hope there's a driver, and unless I'm lucky enough to find a working RPM for my distribution (if it supports RPMs), I have to find a "regular" driver, uncompress it, and figure out what do with it. If I 'm really, really lucky, they've got a readme file or something on the web site that has vague instructions on how to install it. And if I've won the lottery that day, the instructions will apply 100% to my distribution without any quirks and it will work perfectly after I've spent a half-hour in a terminal window doing commands and online searching for things.

Which is more intuitive? Yes, I can do both, and in fact I usually don't have too much trouble installing applications or drivers in Linux. But it's not at all intuitive, not even in Ubuntu. In Windows and Mac, you get an executable that does everything for you. You have to go throw a grand total of about five mouse clicks and no typing. There's very little thought involved. Almost anyone can figure it out.

RE: apple better watch out.
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 4:46:33 PM , Rating: 2
To be fair to Ubuntu, it's repositories do a much better job than most distros for having everything you need on hand.

It still can't save you from this though if you have to install a driver that isn't in the repository. Like for example trying to use the Nvidia drivers from the site and try to contort the generic install instructions to work in your distro.

This is where I hit a brick wall and lost interest in Ubuntu a few releases back. The repository Nvidia driver didn't work well and I wanted to install the one from the Nvidia site, I got it in the end but it was one hell of a headache.

Ironically It worked amazingly well in Slackware just cause Slackware is such vanilla standard Linux that commands seem to work exactly as 90% of people expect them to and write tutorials referencing.

RE: apple better watch out.
By kmmatney on 12/4/2007 5:10:05 PM , Rating: 2
Last time I tried Ubuntu, the repository feature never worked. It only worked after I "reset" the repository, reset the package manager, rebuild the source list, etc...This was right off a fresh install from the DVD ISO, not a great start for my Ubunutu Linux experience...

RE: apple better watch out.
By kmmatney on 12/4/2007 4:58:08 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, its not that simple. I've tried Linux many times -last try earlier this year with the Ubuntu DVD. I always reach a point where I don't know how to accomplish something, and the solution often involved compiling something. I'm a Microsoft Certified Programmer, and have been programming since the DOS days, but I still find this process "not fun". (OK maybe the last time this happened was 4 or 5 years ago...).

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 1:43:40 PM , Rating: 2
lol honestly as was mentioned previously that's the dumbest comment. Obviously if you buy a free unsupported product you can't call someone. Solution? Pay for Linux support! Wow. Isn't that a novel idea. geez. Bear with me here. Now you can simply pick up the phone and get support for your Linux distro. Most probably the quality of that support will be higher than where ever you were getting your Windows support. Not too mention cheaper.

Shocking I know.

The fact that you can get Linux completely free isn't it's only attraction.

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:02:11 PM , Rating: 2
Based on an informal survey of Linux users that I know

Well are these people still using Linux? Did they dump it because they couldn't get support? If they dumped it because they couldn't find support I find that odd. If they were able to download Linux and install it, I am sure they are able to realize you can get support from the distribution they are downloading. Maybe they don't need support because wiki and forums and is good enough for them.

Talk about jumping to conclusions! How did you get to that?

Because I'll support your Linux for you :P

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 2:17:16 PM , Rating: 2
The people I know using Linux are self-supporting because they are expert users and also invest a lot of time into it. But that doesn't help the 90% of customers who are not in that situation - the people who need it to just work, and when it doesn't, they want a 1-800 number they can call to get it working again.

Maybe commercial Linux support will work, but so far it has obviously not set the world on fire, has it? Linux desktop marketshare is still practically zero.

RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 2:33:39 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder what percentage of Linux users pay for a support contract. Based on an informal survey of Linux users that I know, I'd guess that the number is pretty small.

Ok so your sample population is not a very good average sampling then.

Maybe commercial Linux support will work, but so far it has obviously not set the world on fire, has it? Linux desktop marketshare is still practically zero.

I'd wager that Linux's market share will only grow and not shrink to exactly 0.

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: apple better watch out.
By cochy on 12/4/2007 3:40:29 PM , Rating: 2
My company does. Novell licenses. People I know? None. None of them have to. The people I know using Linux either do not need it, or come to me or someone else (Same with Windows users I know.). The point is that it is out there it's available and easily accessible.

That's the whole argument here no?

RE: apple better watch out.
By NaughtyGeek on 12/4/2007 12:51:55 PM , Rating: 5
Are you serious? "If you're looking for a feature that hasn't been written yet in Linux, you make a request and there's good chances that within 5 months it'll be fully implemented for free." So you're saying that no one has requested an app to make games run on Linux? You sir are the one that needs to get a clue. I run Windows because all the software I run requires Windows and that's not just games. You ever tried obtaining PLC programming software from Siemens or Allen Bradley for Linux? Ever tried to play Source games on Linux? Linux my friend is unusable for anyone other than people who only check emails and surf the web or those who develop software. And if people are bringing you their system every three months to clean spyware and viruses I'd say they're idiots because they're putting their faith in a guy who doesn't know how to recommend products to limit or eliminate spyware and viruses. And if the only way you can remove viruses and spyware is by reformatting you're not a very good PC tech either. I've been building and servicing PCs for many years and can count on one hand how many times I've had to reformat due to a virus or spyware. For a Linux guy, I can't believe you haven't converted all these folks over to Firefox at a minimum. And how many illiterate computer users are going to go to a wiki, IRC, or forum to figure out how to fix a problem with their system? The only thing Linux IS useful for is email, surfing, small software project development and running a server. Does that mean it'll never get better, no. But it isn't anywhere close to being an acceptable mainstream product either.

RE: apple better watch out.
By geddarkstorm on 12/4/2007 2:03:58 PM , Rating: 2
Just as a side, people have been working for a long time on game emulation on Linux. Check out WineHQ. Wine is a program that successfully runs a lot of popular windows games on Linux. It's no where near perfect, but it's been around for years and is constantly improving--so yes, people have asked for an app to run games in linux, and they have gotten it, it's just a very difficult problem making a scratch API that can emulate windows API.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Mr Perfect on 12/4/2007 12:58:23 PM , Rating: 2
I feel you're pain with the illiterate infections, but there is a fix. Take away their administrative rights. Just like Vista and Linux before it, common use should not be performed on an account with administrative access. Especially if it's someone who's "infection prone".

You'll probably still get a call every month or two, but they will go something like "It's telling me I don't have rights to install my new program" instead of "I have ten thousand pop-ups". But then again, illiterate people probably call you to install their programs for them now anyway.

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 1:17:46 PM , Rating: 1
How's this for windows usability: why do ALL my computer illiterate friends running windows bring their computers to me to clean off all the spyware and viruses every 3 months?

If your friends ran Vista, this would probably be a non-issue, unless they are complete idiots who are running EXEs off e-mail attachments and porn sites.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Ringold on 12/4/2007 1:25:46 PM , Rating: 2
Well, at least now I know who the resident DT linux troll is!

If you're looking for a feature that hasn't been written yet in Linux, you make a request and there's good chances that within 5 months it'll be fully implemented for free.

I requested networking to just ****ing work in Gentoo in 2002.

5 years later, I tried it this summer, both in pure form and via a Sabayon install, and on my not-exactly-bleeding-edge motherboard, it wouldn't work. I hit Sabayon's IRC, spent a nice part of my free time for a week trying to solve the problem with all the technical solutions they offered, then annhilated the bloody thing from my hard drive.

I probably could've got it working, probably could've paid for support that would've fixed it quickly, but I've never in my life paid for support, wasn't going to start then, and had already spent more time on a command line then I had since the mid 1990s.

Trying to get TA:Spring to work based on an outdated wiki was even more fun, and was actually the last straw before I said "screw it". Meanwhile, the Windows install process for TA:Spring consists of hitting "next" 4 or 5 times.

Here's a request, see if you can get this done in 5 months for free: Make a linux distro clone of OSX. :P

RE: apple better watch out.
By retrospooty on 12/4/2007 1:25:49 PM , Rating: 5
"How's this for windows usability: why do ALL my computer illiterate friends running windows bring their computers to me to clean off all the spyware and viruses every 3 months?"

Umm, I hate to break it to you, but if they are getting infected every 3 months they are NOT computer literate. They are likely A) totally inept at dealing with computers and B) downloading alot of crap off of "questionable" filesharting services.

I have not had a peice of malware or spyware ever, and have usually 2-5 PC's in my house at any given time all running various versions of windows.

RE: apple better watch out.
By vdig on 12/4/2007 4:22:10 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree to those two reasons you stated right there. As for why your computer illiterate friends are requiring you to reformat every 3 months, it is probably because you don't want them to become computer literate, which would be especially true if they are paying you for your services. Reformatting only works in restoring a computer to working order, and not correcting the computing missteps that lead to corruption.

PEBKAC - Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

Every time I service a computer, the time that passes before I'm called again doubles, meaning that what I tell them to do - antivirus and antispyware scans, avoiding obvious trap web pages, etc. - slowly corrects their erroneous and possibly dangerous use of the computers in question. Unfortunately, pre-teenage kids take at least 2-3 computer failures in quick succession before they get the point that they should do as I say or suffer from computer, and possibly WoW, withdrawal. If they don't get it, I deliberately stall before I fix it for them, just to emphasize their mistake and prolong their withdrawal. They get the point quickly, I think, when they're desperate.

RE: apple better watch out.
By gumbi18 on 12/4/2007 5:52:44 PM , Rating: 2
If they don't get it, I deliberately stall before I fix it for them, just to emphasize their mistake and prolong their withdrawal. They get the point quickly, I think, when they're desperate.

LOL I do exactly the same thing in my shop, just to try to change their behaviour. I know in the end I lose money because they aren't constantly needing their computer cleared of viruses, spyware etc etc. However it does mean that there is one less idiot wandering into the shop, which IMHO is a blessing from God, Allah, Ra, Buddah, whatever...

RE: apple better watch out.
By mmntech on 12/4/2007 12:58:11 PM , Rating: 2
What about the Eee PC? It's recording huge sales and it runs Xandros. Mac OS X proved that Unix based operating systems can be made easy to use and fully functional for average users. Linux will see a surge in the next few years as more hardware makers begin to include it as an option on their systems, leading to more support. Software like Firefox and OpenOffice have proven that open source programs can become viable and even popular alternatives. The average user hates Windows with a passion. However, they've been led to believe it's their only choice for PC and that Macs are too expensive and limited.

Microsoft's big flaw with Vista is still their failure to make the program innovative. It's essentially just a kernel update to XP that adds DX10, pretty colours, slightly better security, and more DRM. If XP works and you've got some decent security software, there's really no need to upgrade. DX10 is still the big draw but it really hasn't proven itself yet, with the exception of Crysis which needs insanely high end hardware to run properly.

RE: apple better watch out.
By Ringold on 12/4/2007 1:16:55 PM , Rating: 2
And what about the Eee PC? Did you read Anandtech's review? The first thing they wanted to do with the darn thing is rip that lousy OS off and get something decent on -- they suggested even another distro would've been an improvement. Seems to me like a good portion of people that buy it go to the trouble of sticking on XP.

RE: apple better watch out.
By omnicronx on 12/4/2007 1:38:55 PM , Rating: 2
What about the Eee PC? It's recording huge sales and it runs Xandros. Mac OS X proved that Unix based operating systems can be made easy to use and fully functional for average users.
MAC OS X although unix based, is based on FreeBSD, not Linux. Linux is essentially an open system, anyone can edit source code legally, and distro makers are required to release a 'free' version of their OS. Once again as someone said before, linux just does not have the 'business model' to compete with windows. And lets not get started about the business aspect in general, its really hard to convince people that yes we are going to have a product and sell it, but we will also release and maintain it for free!

RE: apple better watch out.
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 1:48:16 PM , Rating: 1
You're very right about that. Linux creates an expectation of "free" which is why practically nobody ever buys support contracts for it. Heck, most people wouldn't even know where to start shopping for a support contract. With Windows, support is included from Microsoft and/or the computer OEM. That's much easier for people to comprehend, especially for a newly-purchased computer, which is why I said that unless the business model changes for Linux, it won't ever make any serious inroads against Windows.

RE: apple better watch out.
By MrPickins on 12/4/2007 2:26:58 PM , Rating: 4
The average user hates Windows with a passion.

Says who?

Most people I know have little problem with it, other than power users.

RE: apple better watch out.
By carl0ski on 12/5/2007 4:45:01 AM , Rating: 1
And IBM / Novell are just tiny corporations running from a tin shed

By Amiga500 on 12/4/2007 11:56:19 AM , Rating: 2
After all, if people cannot find a way around paying for Vista they might go to linux. (AMD's driver program may well produce some interesting result for games on linux in the future too).

Bang goes Microsoft's (near) monopoly and bang goes the need for all businesses and home users to run Microsoft OSs "because everyone else does and I may need to talk to another computer" and "thats what everyone else writes programs for".

Although, to counter the above - if they do build a good enough security system, they can afford to drop the prices somewhat with the higher sales volumes.

By jlanders646 on 12/4/2007 12:00:56 PM , Rating: 2
Linux will never be adopted like windows, UT3 has been out for weeks and still no linux client and/or server. Its just not as widley accept and I doubt it ever will be.

By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 12:16:28 PM , Rating: 3
Linux is hardly just starting out. It has been around for close to 10 years.

By Mitch101 on 12/4/2007 12:33:32 PM , Rating: 5
I'm still waiting for the Linux revolution that was going to wipe out Windows some 10 years ago.

Linux really is a great OS but when it comes to corporate collaboration you cant even remotely come close to Microsoft Office or its collaboration tools. Open office is a great program for the individual who cant afford office. I will even go so far to say even if you can afford office you should consider the free alternative.

Also for the record Linux does Hang and Crash too and is not the friendliest when it comes to loading drivers or doing upgrades and is not very portable. Try replacing a motherboard with a different one or moving your hard drive to a different laptop. Not everyone wants to learn about their OS, DMA's, IRQs etc. Linux is a geeks OS and continues to remain a geeks OS.

Don't get me wrong I like linux but what I don't like is Linux people telling Windows users how stupid they are because we like Windows. Get over it.

By Talcite on 12/4/2007 12:34:07 PM , Rating: 1
I don't see how that has any bearing on the topic. Macs have been around longer than MS. They practically had no market share for 10 years after MS took off, they just came back big time and they're ripping MS a new one now.

My point is that just because something doesn't have large market share doesn't mean it can't get it. The amount of time it takes is irrelevant. All it takes is something like Vista to push everyone to other OSes.

By Ringold on 12/4/2007 12:56:26 PM , Rating: 2
All it takes is something like Vista to push everyone to other OSes.

I think a better choice would've been Windows ME. I've tried dual-booting Vista with Sabayon, Ubuntu and PCLOS, and each time I ended up eliminating the linux distro with glee. I haven't had to get on a forum and ask for technical help in Windows for a long, long time; I've been able to stumble to a solution. Not so with Linux; I tried to get help from the Sabayon forum, and they were helpful, but the NIC problem was hard to pin down and the solutions time consuming and far too technical.

Vista? I wish Space Empires V would run on it better, and I'd forgot Stars! was a 16-bit application, but whatever, minor quibbles.

Vista will not be the end of MS's dominance.

By sprockkets on 12/4/2007 3:03:43 PM , Rating: 2
Not bad.

I put on Vista due to being tired of Linux.

Then, my HP2200D laserjet printer either due to drivers available for Vista

1. Never showed the option for 1200DPI printing or
2. Never gave me the duplex option.

I had to chose between one driver or the other. That's crap.

Then, with sound on my Abit NView motherboard, it works fine, but if I want to use the optical out, I have to go to the sound properties, and make it the default, then restart the application that is playing the sound. With linux I can have both run at the same time and change the outputs on demand. XP did not have that limitation.

Speaking of artificial limitations, Vista no longer has inputs for the cd drive audio. Yeah, we do not need them, except for those who have tv tuner cards that use them. I would like to strangle the idiot who made that decision. What, if anything, did you save by removing that option?

Microsoft shot itself in the foot by having XP out so long. Because of that, it just work so well with everything, and no one wants to upgrade since XP just works. And more and more people seem to acknowledge that Apple iMacs exist and are buying them now.

By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 1:00:34 PM , Rating: 3
You have an interesting fantasy take on reality.

Mac is ripping ms a new one? yeah that 6% market share is murdering microsoft. No wonder Steve Ballmer is so sweaty right.

By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:17:45 PM , Rating: 2
It's nice to have wishful thinking about Linux, but the fact is it will never be mainstream. Like it or not Microsoft is right, you can't release a quality supported product without dollars behind it.

This is why OSX works, it has payed developers backing it, and supporting it. A Linux based OS can succeed, as a payed endeavor. Linux as it stands, free will never become a mainstream reality.

By Ringold on 12/4/2007 12:15:33 PM , Rating: 2
I think it could be eventaully. The current form is best for enthusiasts and elitists, and as it stands you're right, it'll never in its wildest dreams get any large following.

On the other hand, if they take a page out of the Apple playbook that just works without bothering the user with technical BS then I think it could be more of a winner. It's okay now for children that dont break anything and old people who aren't the wiser, but for the mild enthusiast that wants crap to work and is used to having every codec in the known universe (and most of those in all parallel universes) work by simpling DLing K-Lite codec pack, hitting "next next next next", and installing drivers that frankly virtually always work, again with just a series of "next" buttons, then all current distro's are a ways away. Oh, and Windows doesn't preach about if something is freeware, paid-for software, open source, or anything else; "binary" is a dirty word on many distro's forums. As long as they choose to take overtly political stances they'll always polarize a portion of the potential user base.

Apple and MS both would also have a competitive incentive to remain at least a generation ahead of whatever free alternative exists, so they'd likely not go extinct either.

So perhaps not this decade, but I'd never say never. If apple can do it, a lot of guys with ridiculous amounts of free time can do it.

By UNHchabo on 12/4/2007 1:19:12 PM , Rating: 2
Ubuntu has done a pretty good job in that end, getting the OS to be pretty transparent to the user, and unlike previous "user-friendly" Linux distros, it's still pretty popular among the "nerdy" Linux crowd.

As for codecs, don't bother, no matter what the OS. Get VLC; it can play pretty much anything that doesn't have DRM.

I use Gentoo personally, and I haven't had to do much dirty work. Most of it involved packages that were still in beta or alpha, so I don't really count those. I don't care much about the binary/source distinction; it would be NICE if the F/OSS Nvidia drivers worked as well as the binary ones, but I don't really care, as long as it works.

Basically, I think Linux is already there, you just have to actually try it every once in a while to see the major advancements that have been made in the past 6 months, like the Wine update in June that (in some cases) made DirectX apps work better than natively in Windows!

By Nanobaud on 12/4/2007 12:57:33 PM , Rating: 2
It seems like the demands of the defensive software (AntiVirus, AntiSpam, AntiPirating, Firewall, DRM snooping, constant updates, ...) well faster than actual computing power. The dominant OS in the future will probably come from somewhere like McAfee. We will come to work in the morning and turn on our computers, they will immediately saturate erecting a defensive shield, carefully peeking out of temporary slits in the wall on alert for invading hordes. Then we will spend the rest of our day doing productive stuff without the computer, at the end we will touch the fingerprint scanner on our desk, and after a couple of hours cross-checking external sensors, the computer will decide that was indeed us and we have left, then it will carefully shut itself off.

By teckytech9 on 12/5/2007 1:58:25 AM , Rating: 1
The real issue is that Linux is open and won't be pirated since its free (distros abound). Vista is way too bloated, not compatible to older hardware, with too much consumerism at play.

Its interesting to note that there is an initiative to get kids to start using laptops on Linux platforms - OLPC.

Linux Kernel: Linux 2.6.22; Fedora
CPU: x86-compatible processor with 64KB
AMD Geode LX-700
Made in Taiwan

Bottom line is that the OS should be open and "transparent to the user."

By just4U on 12/5/2007 2:33:40 AM , Rating: 2
I wonder tho. If linux were to be even remotely as popular as windows currently is, what would happen? Would we not see the same sorts of problems with that wide of a userbase. Not to mention the fact that it would be more enticing for Hackers to exploit it. They'd have all that knowledge at their fingertips to since it's all open source.

By TomZ on 12/5/2007 8:07:23 AM , Rating: 1
Bottom line is that the OS should be open and "transparent to the user."

Says who? You've been reading too much from Richard Stallman and his followers (software communism).

Who cares
By SexyJames on 12/4/2007 11:49:12 AM , Rating: 3
I'd kinda prefer it if instead of wasting their time thinking of all these new security measures that people will probably just find ways to bypass anyway, they'd fix what NEEDS fixing. Bugs, incompatibility issues, and gaming performance, particularly DX10. It's not a bad OS at all, this is heavily over-exaggerated, and I quite like it. Just I wish they'd hurry up and get this Service Pack out.

RE: Who cares
By KernD on 12/4/2007 12:21:57 PM , Rating: 2
I'm quite certain they have a whole team working on bug fix, there will always be bugs, that doesn't mean they must not work on anything else, like security and hack protection.
Bug fixing is unpredictable and complex, you can't know how long it will take to fix a bug, and assigning 2 programmer on the bug won't solve it in half the time.

Ho and by the way, they can't fix bad drivers, DX10 performance also is quite dependent on driver implementation and the underlying hardware.

RE: Who cares
By Mitch101 on 12/4/2007 12:24:10 PM , Rating: 3
I agree however DX10 adds so much more than DX9 that a performance hit is expected. Same as putting in a Physics card and getting lower framerates. The PPU added additional detail for the graphics card to draw slowing the framerate down. The same applies to DX10 it has additional layers that allow for additional detail even if they arent used the code for those subroutines exist. The second problem is most video cards are still DX9 optimized designs that just recently started getting more DX10 optimized. Meeting the DX10 minimums is still DX10 compliant. There are some early generation DX9 Video cards I cant imaging trying to play todays DX9 games even at 800x600. It usually takes about 18 months to get over this hurdle and were about 12 months into that. The most recent graphics cards from NVIDIA and ATI with $200.00 area price tags really help the DX10/DX9 gap. Prior to this DX10 although possible on some cards I have to say probably didn't have enough GPU power to really drive it unless you spent $400.00 on a video card. It just wasn't there.

You have to keep in mind too the delay is also because playing games at 1024x768 for some reason isn't acceptable any more are barely even benchmarked for some reason. Now If your not playing at 1600x1200 resolution then you cant play the games or at least marketing would like you to believe. So we have people going from DX9 at 800x600-1024x768 19" monitors to being told they need to play DX10 and at a minimum of 1600x1200 resolutions with FSAA etc. Big Gap and Marketing has all but killed the casual gamer who would play at 800x600 on his 19" monitor and have a good time. Only recently there will be a sub $200 DX10 card for this gamer.

RE: Who cares
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 1:35:17 PM , Rating: 2
Well considering the point of DX10 and newer hardware is to drive better graphics, why wouldn't they push the higher resolutions. What kind of detail do you get with an 800x600 display? Or even 1024x768. I haven't used a 1024x678 display in years on anything other than the G4 iBook I have to use as a DVD player on planes.

To me to get the detail of modern games, you need at least a 1280x1024 display.

RE: Who cares
By Frallan on 12/5/07, Rating: 0
RE: Who cares
By djkrypplephite on 12/4/2007 1:33:14 PM , Rating: 2
Think of how much they could actually make the product better if they took the entire WGA team and focused them on developing something useful. Just Imagine.

RE: Who cares
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 1:52:07 PM , Rating: 1
That's foolish - probably the WGA team is responsible for more incremental revenue than any other development team at Microsoft. Think about the piracy rate with Windows - that represents a huge lost potential revenue opportunity.

RE: Who cares
By choadenstein on 12/4/2007 3:20:42 PM , Rating: 2
The real lost profit comes from not making the software actually affordable so less people are interested in stealing it. It's kind of like the CD sales v. downloading for free (piracy) v. iTunes type downloads.

CDs were WAY to pricey for what you got... People started illegally sharing music. iTunes and the like have helped bring song and album prices back in line (at least when downloading). Not that iTunes and services like them have cured illegal downloading, but it definitely helped curb it. There are a lot of people who are willing to pay a certain price and do the right thing as opposed to doing the wrong thing for free.

Back to Microsoft. Vista is ridiculously expensive, all MS OS's are expensive. Vista's (and now the upgraded XP) licenses are ridiculous... It is so frustrating to change a HDD or add a new one to an existing Vista system and have to re-activate it. The more expensive microsoft makes its products, and the shrinking amount of what you can do with their new licenses, makes is so much more likely that piracy will be a big issue.

I recently built a new computer with Vista, and after paying the very painful price of buying the software was appauled at what I was required to agree to just to install it. In my opinion, as a law student at a top university (so not completely uneducated in the matter), Microsoft has a whole lot of Antitrust suits coming soon - not that they haven't been facing them for years.

Anyway, I agree with the OP. I'd much rather hear about how SP1 is going to cure big ticket problems with the OS's functionality rather than how SP1 is going to be a cash cow for Microsoft by curbing piracy.

RE: Who cares
By darkpaw on 12/5/2007 9:17:48 AM , Rating: 3
$120 is not expensive for a piece of software that you'll use everyday for 5 years or so. Its the price of 2 games that might give a few months use.

RE: Who cares
By Frallan on 12/5/07, Rating: 0
No thx
By JoeBanana on 12/4/2007 11:46:31 AM , Rating: 2
I am happy with my new operating system. I can surf the internet with FF, use MSN, run OOo. Of course I don't own a firm.

But I can say I had half a trouble with current OS then a year back when I had MS.

A year back I formated my HDD but I couldn't install my original XP. Then I decided I would try something new and now I am happy with my new OS.

Though I am thinking about trying vista to see how far windows have advanced. Why not I have free MS stuff through MSDNAA.

RE: No thx
By Screwballl on 12/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: No thx
By sweetsauce on 12/4/2007 1:00:48 PM , Rating: 2
I want to visit the phantasy world you live in.

RE: No thx
By JoeBanana on 12/4/2007 1:30:56 PM , Rating: 2
Actually my friend run an OpenGl prey game on his archLinux and his framerate was higher then in windows. I know it's just one title but it proves that it can be done and will be done.

RE: No thx
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 3:20:50 PM , Rating: 1
Too many people think of Linux as what they saw 5, 10 or 20 years ago... yet it has made amazing steps in the past few years to be very competitive with Windows and OSX. The real problem is that people see Windows and they are familiar with it so anytime anything else is mentioned (like the word "Linux"), they respond as if it was some fantasy program that only 0.00001% of the world can use.

sweetsauce, try linux, try a few different distros, learn more about it, actually use it for a month and you will see that Windows is a bulky virus prone poor excuse of an OS... or you will keep your blockheaded ego fluffed up and go back to Windows after 1 day saying you don't like it with some excuse, but we all know it is because its not Windows and always easy.

RE: No thx
By SurJector on 12/4/2007 3:31:58 PM , Rating: 2
20 years ago Linux was fantastic. It was not really better than Windows; on the same level I'd say.


RE: No thx
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 4:01:46 PM , Rating: 3
Not really, 20 years ago Windows 2.0 was out and 2.03 was about to be released (Jan 1988). Linux, however, wasn't released publicly until 1991.

Vista Vs Xp
By jlanders646 on 12/4/2007 11:59:12 AM , Rating: 2
It took me years, actually till xmas of last year to go to xp.
I had to adopt Vista early for work, I started using it around three months ago, didn't really liked it but forced myself to use it at home and work. Recent updates have made this os shine and stable. I reloaded Vista Business 64bit this weekend, dled all the updates, installed my games and off I went. Vista isn't that bad, xp is quicker yes, but Vista is a bad operating system and we'll all have to go to it eventually. 64bit Vista has been refined and wasn't a half ass job like xp64bit was, all and all I'm honestly impressed, anyone else remember how long it used to take xp to get on a domain when it first came out? 20 freaking minutes, if you compare apples to apples the Vista launch was better than the xp. My two cents.

RE: Vista Vs Xp
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2007 12:20:59 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. I installed Vista Home Premium 64-bit on my parents PC. Runs great on an X2 4200+, 2GB of RAM, and integrated Nvidia graphics. Would XP be 1 second faster on some things? Probably. But its nothing thats a real problem.

RE: Vista Vs Xp
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 3:47:13 PM , Rating: 1
But its nothing thats a real problem.

Nothing thats a real problem.... until people actually need to USE the computer. Then those that have used XP see that XP runs faster on a 1GHz Athlon with 256MB of RAM and onboard video than Vista does on a nice new Dell XPS with QX6700, 2GB DDR3 and SLI 8800GTX... hmmm tough decision for a home user, keep the fast XP or the slow buggy problematic piece of crap called Vista. Why else would MS be forced into extending the shelf life of XP and allowing a downgrade program for certain OEM buyers?

Of course people can be brainwashed to believe that "Vista works fine and plenty fast" when there is no direct comparison. Try installing them side by side on the same computer, same programs, and 95% of people will stick with XP because of the familiarity and speed. Those are the reasons that many new OEM computers are locked into Vista. Try installing XP or linux or any other alternative OS onto many new Lenovo, Dell or HP OEM based PCs that is not part of their "downgrade" program and you will see that you are locked into Vista. By locking out that downgrade path, people are stuck with Vista and have to learn to accept it (but not like it).

RE: Vista Vs Xp
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 4:17:21 PM , Rating: 2
XP runs faster on a 1GHz Athlon with 256MB of RAM and onboard video than Vista does on a nice new Dell XPS with QX6700, 2GB DDR3 and SLI 8800GTX

I see you don't mind to stooping to outright lies in a desparate attempt to defend your views. Show me a single review anywhere that backs up your "fact."

In reality (you remember what that is, right?) practically all reviews show performance of XP being about the same as Vista, like plus or minus 5% depending on what is being measured. Can you please accept these reviews and move on already!

My personal experience is the following. I have a number of machines here that were upgraded from XP to Vista, and only one out of the bunch performed worse under Vista. That machine was a 7-year old mobile PIII @ 850MHz w/512MB RAM. A few of the other machines are about 3-year old single-core machines with 512MB-1GB of RAM, and they all run the same with Vista as they did with XP. The newer machines all run great under Vista w/Aero.

RE: Vista Vs Xp
By Flunk on 12/4/2007 7:36:54 PM , Rating: 3
My experience with Vista is that it works fine on any system with DX9 graphics and 1GB of RAM and that the Aero interface actually fixes a lot of the weird Windows GDI errors that occur in XP.

Athlon XP 2500+
1GB DDR 333mhz
ATi Radeon x850 XT
Runs just as well as XP

Turion X2 TL-50
1GB DDR2 667Mhz
Integrated Geforce 6150
Runs very well, never tried XP.

Maybe I will try installing it on the 1Ghz Athlon I keep in the closet and see. My point is that with even passable hardware Vista runs perfectly fine.

RE: Vista Vs Xp
By retrospooty on 12/4/2007 7:47:15 PM , Rating: 1
In some systems with particular hardware it may run well. On others with high end systems it can be very problematic.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that, just because an OS runs great on your computer, it runs great on ALL computers. Windows has always been more fickle than that.

A hell of a lot of people are having bloat issues with Vista on extremely high end machines, don't automatically discount that fact just because you are running well.

By Shawn on 12/4/2007 11:43:00 AM , Rating: 2
How exactly will they be able to tell the difference between a hacked BIOS and a real OEM BIOS?

By MetaDFF on 12/4/2007 11:51:14 AM , Rating: 2
I think they are referring to driver based hack that tries to emulate the hardware-embedded BIOS ACPI_SLIC license information.

By ghost101 on 12/4/2007 12:55:44 PM , Rating: 2
What about those Dell OEM dvds that are available everywhere. AFAIK, they arent modified but run fine.

By DM0407 on 12/4/2007 1:51:54 PM , Rating: 2
The only thing that would be able to do is re-issue every system a new cd key, and even then they would still need the generic Dell keys for all the people that cant be bothered to change the key because Microsoft is losing money. They can't just not support the keys they have already created.
They act like they hate pirates but without them, how many people would be out of jobs? Do you think that Microsoft would employ so many people to their WGA division?
What most gamers are paying for (or downloading) is DirectX, Microsoft has a strong hold on the game industry. We need to start developing for OpenGl, sh*t I'll even use Glide drivers if it gets me out of a windows environment.
But my love of gaming is too great.....
So I use Windows because I have to, kinda like i go to work because I have to. If you make DirectX multi platform then windows loses all its appeal.Heres to the Linux Kernel and open source video drivers!

Microsoft (as an OS company, I love your 360:)can go suck some royal penguin ass.

By Flunk on 12/4/2007 7:45:02 PM , Rating: 2
A lot of people like running Windows for other things too. Many people use Windows for things like... work. Office, Dreamweaver, Visual Studio, Photoshop, Illustrator and thousands of other great applications are available for Windows (and some for Mac OS but we are not talking about that right now) and I think that matters a lot more than games.

Before anyone says anything, wine's compatibility needs a lot of work. Of the applications I listed above none of them work properly under wine.

Pirate Steals Boat - Drowns
By DM0407 on 12/4/2007 11:42:21 AM , Rating: 2
This would be like a pirate commandeering a ship that doesn't even float and is surrounded by guards while there is a a fully functioning ship ready for the taking right next to it.

I find it funny that they put this much effort into securing Vista but within a month it will be cracked... That is if anyone cares enough to do it. Not that I would ever pirate an OS, BUT if I did I would stick with XP anyway.

RE: Pirate Steals Boat - Drowns
By Quiescent on 12/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: Pirate Steals Boat - Drowns
By SavagePotato on 12/4/2007 12:30:13 PM , Rating: 3
Lets see your an admitted OS pirate and you don't want to take the risk of pirating vista.

You'll have to excuse me if I suggest your opinion is as valuable as used toilet paper. Since apparently your personal opinion of Vista is that even though you have never used it, you feel it is to big a risk for you to pirate like you did with XP.

RE: Pirate Steals Boat - Drowns
By Screwballl on 12/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: Pirate Steals Boat - Drowns
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 4:03:32 PM , Rating: 2
Probably not - the downrating is probably more related to the nonsense in your comments.

Linux will not domniate
By Etern205 on 12/4/2007 4:20:31 PM , Rating: 2
I've tried linux before Ubuntu actually and what made me want to try it out is their fancy 3D effects. So I've downloaded the distro and installed it.

Now for me to enable the beryl effect (that time it's called beryl now it's compiz fusion) I had to go through tons of crappy command lines and sites in order to me to enable it, but some of the sites needed to download the files are no longer there and now I'm stuck and I had to find an alternative route. After about 2 hours or so in forums and clicking on dead links. I finally got my beryl to work, but with all that hassle it's just not worth it. And then I thought to myself, why can't they do it the easy way like Apple or Windows? Just give the user a check box to enable or disable the fancy effect instead of all this run around crap.

So for you happy linux out there if you can use linux and your happy with it, good for you. But don't give us your BS saying how much better linux is because like what other have mentioned 95% or more will not give a damn about what you like which is why linux will not dominiate the Windows and Apple market.

RE: Linux will not domniate
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 7:46:10 PM , Rating: 1
Try looking into Fedora Core 8, they have many of these effects installed already and some just need to be enabled with a check box like you mentioned.

RE: Linux will not domniate
By Etern205 on 12/5/2007 2:33:00 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks I'll try that out. :)

I noticed...
By Souka on 12/4/2007 11:44:19 AM , Rating: 1
I recently got he HL2 Orange box (great set) and put my system into the Valve Survey...something like 300,000 PCs included and more growing.

I noticed about 84%+ were running XP, 12% Vista, and remining running "other". That really shows me that Vista isn't being endorsed by the gaming community very well.

RE: I noticed...
By sweetsauce on 12/4/2007 1:05:48 PM , Rating: 3
Or it shows that cheap gamers don't want to spend $150+ on an OS unless they have to. Unless you're doing an upgrade to your system, you have no need to upgrade the OS.

Market share
By Screwballl on 12/4/2007 1:48:35 PM , Rating: 1
There are all sorts of numbers out there, some released by MS, some by Mac, some by unbiased companies. Looking at the numbers (link below to one source) which gives a reasonable picture of market share, Linux users doubled in a little over 1 year and jumped up significantly around the release of Vista.

As Vista numbers increase, all the others come down except linux which continues to go up. OSX seems to stay about even, not really growing overall.

RE: Market share
By TomZ on 12/4/2007 11:03:44 PM , Rating: 3
You're misinterpreting the numbers. Linux is basically flat when you look across all the surveys on that page. OSX is increasing when you include the Mac Intel. Vista is increasing like gangbusters, which as you say is happening at the expense of other Windows versions, which isn't much surprise.

I am beginning to think you are delusional.

Performance... On a memory starved box?
By BikeDude on 12/4/2007 2:35:38 PM , Rating: 1
Who cares about OS performance on a box limited to 1GB of memory?

They use a dual core configuration, and only 1GB? I...lack words.

It would be interesting to see a real benchmark though. But Vista simply has more junk running. I have 4GB memory, yet I immediately disabled stuff like Defender, UAC and indexing.

RE: Performance... On a memory starved box?
By tanishalfelven on 12/5/07, Rating: 0
By Shlong on 12/5/2007 6:44:42 PM , Rating: 2
I have dual core e4300 @ 3.2 ghz, 2GB Ram. Small things about Vista bug me, I have an XP/Vista dualboot setup. In XP default install I will have firefox open, AIM open, and Outlook open... when I try to open Photoshop, it will open quickly with no problems. Now on Vista default install with firefox open, AIM open, and Outlook open when I try to open Photoshop, the whole system will lag for about 10 seconds (mouse cursor becomes that green gradient circle), And then when Photoshop finally opens there will be another moment of lag for 5 seconds. Now, Vista isn't that bad... but these quirks like the speed difference makes you want to stick with the older OS.

I reverted back to XP
By y2chuck on 12/4/2007 1:35:30 PM , Rating: 2
I had nothing but problems with Vista and it went as far as having to install DRIVERS to get a standard Logitech USB mouse to work. My SD card reader didn't work, external hard drive didn't work and my PDA wasn't recognized until I installed Active Sync. Apart from a fancy Aero desktop, I see no reason to switch.

As for Linux, I tried it for the first time a couple weeks ago and was blown away about how easy it was. Reverting back to XP took about 4 - 5 hours and not 1 device was recognized on my Dell laptop after a fresh install. I booted up with a Ubuntu CD and everything worked except my wireless card. At least I could go online with my wired connection and find out why the wireless didn't work.

I think the biggest barrier Linux will have being adopted is perception. I think general users think it's too technical and complex so they won't ever try it.

Heres the funny thing
By Nik00117 on 12/4/2007 4:29:16 PM , Rating: 2
SP1 most likely has already been cracked.

MS forcing pirates to take Vista?
By fic2 on 12/4/2007 5:15:55 PM , Rating: 2
From the headline I thought that MS was going to force pirates to use Vista. I do think that is against the Geneva convention as cruel and unusual punishment, though.

By mforce on 12/4/2007 6:13:32 PM , Rating: 2
Speaking on behalf of the so called "pirates" I can tell you that I'm not even thinking of pirating Vista. I'm still using that pirated MS product known as Windows XP. Not bragging here, just being honest. I have Vista legally installed at work and I find it pretty much useless. Sure, it looks nice but .... seriously , I just love XP because it's so simple , fast and the programs work.
I'm no Windows fan I barely use it but from time to time but there's that Windows software that just won't work in Linux. For that XP is and will be more than adequate. While I agree Linux has got its problems I think any advanced PC user should be able to handle it. I can understand if you don't want to bother though. I like Linux because I know Linux and I know Linux because I learned.
I think MS has some issues because I'm not going to even bother pirating Vista so ....
This all reminds me a bit of Winamp 3. They added stuff and improved and in the end people were just using Winamp 2 because 3 was slow and people wanted it for mp3 playback not as a video player. The result ? Winamp 5 which supports a basic version that's so much like Winamp 2. Unfortunately for MS I don't think they can do that with Vista that easily but maybe they should listen to the XP loving crowd, see why they like it so much.
Unfortunately the lack of competition is obvious here. While some people might try OS X or Linux most of them are just stuck with Windows and if MS will choose to shove Vista down their throats that's what they'll be using.

By heavenlybright on 12/9/2007 10:26:05 AM , Rating: 2
Almost everything now is web-enabled so you just need any OS with an internet connection and a web browser, except for 3D games and specialized audio/video/graphics programs. Where I work, everything is web-based so I can use whatever I want on my desktop and laptop. I tell people to build web apps instead of taking sides with one OS and one web brower since web apps makes it all common on pretty much all platforms.

By Etern205 on 12/4/2007 6:48:20 PM , Rating: 1
It looks like linux fanboys are supporting cochy's comments and now we see his rating going up and windows supporters rating going down.

Daily Tech should change their rating system.
Let users see how much negative and positive ratings each comment really are.

People pirate Vista?
By Possessed Freak on 12/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: People pirate Vista?
By LumbergTech on 12/4/2007 5:01:04 PM , Rating: 1
yes, and you quickly uninstall it after a week because no matter how much you might like teh pretties you realize that it has no benefits beyond a better interface(SOMETIMES)

"Folks that want porn can buy an Android phone." -- Steve Jobs

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