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Microsoft to require all Windows preloads to be Vista only in 2008

If you're not a fan of Microsoft's latest operating system, Windows Vista, you've no doubt already noticed the near-total absence of systems that are still offered with Windows XP. While change is a natural part of the computing industry, so is resistance to the unknown. However, as the saying goes, "Resistance is futile."

Microsoft will soon prohibit OEM manufacturers from selling Windows machines carrying anything other than Vista preloaded. "The OEM version of XP Professional goes next January," said Frank Luburic, senior ThinkPad product manager for Lenovo. "At that point, they'll have no choice."

Despite the promotions and hype surrounding Vista, many consumers are still looking for ways to get new systems loaded with the more familiar XP operating system. Some are turning to the "Small Business" sections of their favourite retailer, but even those will not be a safe haven in 2008. Dell has already reaffirmed to business users that it plans to "continue offering Windows XP on select Dimension and Inspiron systems until later this summer."

However, home users are still being left out in the cold. Users wanting to stick with XP for comfort or compatibility reasons will need to pay the extra money for a retail (or third-party OEM) copy of Windows XP, and those will surely get harder to find as the year continues.

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so what?
By Murst on 4/12/2007 12:30:56 PM , Rating: 4
Why does this even matter?

95% (actually, probably higher, like 99) of people who buy systems from Dell and the like want vista, not XP. There's a ton of people complaining (or was, not sure if it still is the case) that the XPS systems were not shipped with Vista but XP.

By 2008, vista will have SP1. The OS will have had over a year to mature, and I'd be extremely surprised if anyone but an extremely small minority would prefer XP. And if they do, they'll probably have several retail versions of XP on discs anyways. The exact same thing happened with Win98 when XP came out.

Some people will continue to complain that vista uses too many resources, etc, but the same was the case with XP. However, 2GB ram chips and dx10 cards should be very common and cheap by next year, and that's really the only problem that I can see right now with a new system (price-wise).

Anyways, the sooner the spam bots become extict, the better. Sure, Vista won't solve it completely, but at least it should help.




RE: so what?
By qrhetoric on 4/12/2007 1:12:09 PM , Rating: 2
If it was ok to ignore 5% of the market than nvidia and ati/amd would be coming out with insane cards all the time.


RE: so what?
By PrezWeezy on 4/12/2007 1:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
My company does computer support for a financial (very large) company. There home office will not allow any of them to use Vista, and most likely wont for the next several years. They have lots of proprietary software that doesn't work on Vista. And this isn't a little company, but they don't have the resources to deal with it all at once. This could present a problem for us in trying to get XP systems for these people and they are going to have to buy the more expensive retail versions. I would guess there are other businesses like them that will have a problem when XP is taken off the shelves.


RE: so what?
By Homerboy on 4/12/2007 1:42:26 PM , Rating: 2
count my company in on that too... we got issues if we can't get a PC with XP on it in 2008


RE: so what?
By JCheng on 4/12/2007 1:42:50 PM , Rating: 3
The company probably has its own volume license for XP.


RE: so what?
By Hoser McMoose on 4/12/2007 4:15:32 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. And Microsoft's policies allow for a downgrade to any previous version of Windows that is still in any stage of it's support Life Cycle.

The volume license will allow companies to continue using WinXP on their PCs until 2014.


RE: so what?
By PrezWeezy on 4/12/2007 7:53:39 PM , Rating: 2
Actually...they don't. Because of the way this company runs, all of the people who are buying the PC's have to purchase their own PC's and their own software. It's a dumb system but that's the way they have chosen to set it up.


RE: so what?
By Xenoterranos on 4/12/2007 3:08:41 PM , Rating: 2
My company can't even use IE7 yet! We just upgraded to XP last year

ugh. At least we have Office 2003.


RE: so what?
By ATC on 4/12/2007 3:23:02 PM , Rating: 2
We're in the same boat only our mission critical systems have only just been upgraded to 2000. Only the administrative computers have XP, and that wasn't rolled out till last year.

But I think, as the poster above said, that companies like ours won't be affected much by this, if at all, since we use VL for XP and 2000.

The only thing is it would add an additional cost in work load to our IT department when we replace hardware that comes pre-loaded with Vista, it would then need to be wiped clean and either XP or 2000 put on before coming online.


RE: so what?
By hubajube on 4/12/2007 3:37:11 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The only thing is it would add an additional cost in work load to our IT department when we replace hardware that comes pre-loaded with Vista, it would then need to be wiped clean and either XP or 2000 put on before coming online.
Good luck to them. Hope that Dell doesn't ship some hardware with Vista only drivers.


RE: so what?
By BMFPitt on 4/12/2007 3:37:38 PM , Rating: 2
If you're a big company that doesn't have volume licensing, and doesn't put a clean install/image on your systems when you buy them anyway, you have other problems to concern yourself with besides what Microsoft does in 2008.

Downgrade rights FTW!


RE: so what?
By cubby1223 on 4/12/2007 4:10:03 PM , Rating: 2
Ditto here too.

I've built an extensive web application for one company that demands the use of certain css tags relating to page setup and printing, which IE6 is compatible with, but the tags were dropped in IE7, and never in Mozilla/FireFox or Opera. Move to Vista, forced to IE7, web application no longer works properly, with no alternative.


RE: so what?
By GlassHouse69 on 4/13/07, Rating: -1
RE: so what?
By BladeVenom on 4/12/2007 3:40:12 PM , Rating: 2
Dell's top end game systems still ship with XP.


RE: so what?
By exanimas on 4/12/2007 7:22:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
By 2008, vista will have SP1. The OS will have had over a year to mature, and I'd be extremely surprised if anyone but an extremely small minority would prefer XP. And if they do, they'll probably have several retail versions of XP on discs anyways. The exact same thing happened with Win98 when XP came out.


I read something saying Vista will have no major service packs, but instead Microsoft will try and keep up to date by incremental patches. I don't have the article, but it may have actually been on DailyTech. And I agree, when I heard about Vista I figured I'd wait for a service pack or at least for them to work out a good majority of the "off-the-bat" bugs. Until then, my XP Pro runs just quickly and stably.

You're also very correct about the hardware. People complained XP took too much resources when it came out, as time goes on 2GB of RAM will become standard and no one will be complaining anymore.


RE: so what?
By Samus on 4/14/2007 5:37:28 AM , Rating: 2
they are forcing this slow CRAP down our throats? WRONG WRONG WRONG.


No more OEM software in 2008?
By ThisSpaceForRent on 4/12/2007 11:49:51 AM , Rating: 1
Does this mean pirated copies are back in? Maybe this is nothing, but if a company refuses to sell their software, but still supports it, are you really stealing it anymore?




RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By Chillin1248 on 4/12/2007 11:58:16 AM , Rating: 2
No, you are still stealing.

Just because Toyota supports but does not sell their 2005 Camry anymore in favor of their 2007, does not mean you can go and steal all 2005 Camry's in storage.

-------
Chillin


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By tehgrump on 4/12/2007 1:29:54 PM , Rating: 4
hmmm... no.

What if the guy in charge of storing the 2005 camry could clone it at zero cost. Cars and software are not the same.


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By oTAL on 4/12/2007 1:36:02 PM , Rating: 3
Once again one has to add the fact that, unlike your example, it is not REALLY stealing as you are not depriving anyone of their property.
Nonetheless it is copyright violation, it is wrong and illegal and people should be aware of that. As a Software Engineer I would resent lost revenue resulting from piracy (although I still prefer a pirate to use my software rather than the competition... but that's another story).


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By Christopher1 on 4/12/2007 4:41:45 PM , Rating: 3
Lost revenue? Frankly, once a OS is no longer sold, in my opinion it should fall into the public domain and ANYONE can copy, give out, or do anything with it short of SELLING it.

That way, no lost revenue and people like me (who is going to make a dual boot with my Vista notebook for Vista AND XP) can still use XP for the VERY few things we need it for.


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By Zirconium on 4/12/2007 8:27:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Frankly, once a OS is no longer sold, in my opinion it should fall into the public domain and ANYONE can copy, give out, or do anything with it short of SELLING it.
Maybe when you develop an OS, you can follow that policy, but Microsoft has invested to heavily to simply allow its software to fall into the public domain. Secondly, by giving out XP, Microsoft will be cutting into people who would otherwise buy Vista, and that represents lost revenue.

I realize that software piracy is not the same as stealing a tangible object, but it does appear as though people miss the forest for the trees when dealing with this issue. They focus too much on the fact that pirating a $200 piece of software isn't quite the same as stealing a $200 object, while missing the fact that it is still wrong. I've pirated lots of software in my day (when I had no money), but I never tried to convince myself that what I was doing wasn't immoral, which is the impression I get from many of these posts.


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By hubajube on 4/12/2007 3:33:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
does not mean you can go and steal all 2005 Camry's in storage.
Since when?


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By Moishe on 4/12/2007 1:35:32 PM , Rating: 2
By 2008 MS will have probably released Vista SP1 which will fix most of the initial problems with the OS. If you're paying attention you'll remember that every OS release by any company is plagued with problems. With MS specifically, it's always a year or so before the OS is really any good.

Why not just buy your OS and completely do away with theft altogether? You'll be able to get XP online for at least a year after they stop shipping it with new computers.
I've bought OEM copies of Windows the past couple of times and have been pretty happy with the stability and performance. I generally stay 1-2 years behind the releases. and it's not that expensive. If you can afford a decent computer then you can afford the $120 for an OEM license.


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By Oregonian2 on 4/12/2007 1:54:01 PM , Rating: 3
One of the major problems is compatibility of programs and drivers. What you say, just pay $$$$ for new versions of everything just so one can use Vista that one didn't really want anyway! Okay, so we go along with this. But problem is that there's lots of nice software or hardware with drivers that were made by companies that are no longer with us. No vista versions are coming in this lifetime. So.. buy new hardware and hardware peripherals too! (I've some very spendy orphans that are in this situation). This is what drives the general PC business I suppose, and why the industry was expecting a boom after the release. I can only hope compatibility will improve, I already know Mista is very very poor in regard to my current stuff.

This isn't the stinker though. The stinker comes when they turn off activation of existing XP installs. Want to upgrade one's processor and it says activation is needed? No problem, upgrade all one's software and buy replacements for that which isn't upgradeable!

This is the reverse of piracy theft where Microsoft does the stealing instead (in effect).

P.S. - I'm presuming that when they discontinue support of XP, like they have with the Windows 9x line, that activation support stops as well.


RE: No more OEM software in 2008?
By Moishe on 4/12/2007 2:17:51 PM , Rating: 1
XP was the first MS OS to require activation... but even with that I don't think it has a reduced functionality mode (does it?) So technically even if you could not activate you would still be able to run it just fine and it would nag you and maybe not allow you to have windows-update access.

What we're talking about here though is NOT the end of life of XP it's the end of selling XP on new OEM computers. The end of life and end of support will come later on. Even then I think if enough people complained MS will allow activation. You did buy the license and unless there is fine print saying otherwise you can probably run that software license for quite a long time. I know people who are still using win95. I think it's a shame. Win95 is utter garbage compared to anything like win2k or XP, or even Vista.

In the end if you're expecting to run an old piece of software for years you certainly can, but you can't blame MS for not supporting it when it's 10+ years old. Almost every software company works the same way. Keep in mind win2k is 3 versions old now and you can still install and run it and even receive updates for it.

On the driver side I know exactly how you feel. I've had to sell off perfectly good equipment that did not have win2k drivers. It's annoying, but it's NOT Microsoft's fault. It's the fault of the company making the driver, which is the product manufacturer. Some companies are better than others and in the end you get what you pay for. I have a small Canon USB scanner that came out when win98 was out. It has XP drivers. A Visioneer scanner that my mother had was about the same age and would not even run on Win2k. For me this is another good reason to buy quality hardware from companies who have a track record of supporting their products. Even if my Canon scanner didn't work I wouldn't be mad. I paid $60 and got almost ten years of use out of it. Far as I'm concerned it was money well spent.


By Oregonian2 on 4/13/2007 5:01:21 PM , Rating: 2
The problem isn't that Vista isn't fully backwards compatible (that is a problem, but not my topic), I just won't use it along with a lot of friends who also have drop-dead serious issues with the current version (one friend bought a new replacement machine with Vista installed but took it back to the store to have them remove it and install XP, he couldn't install some of his programs). The problem isn't that XP won't be supported forever. Problem is that it'll be taken BACK from me when I can no longer get it activated. The nagging is only during the grace period. Once the activation period is over it'll shut down and do nothing whatsoever other than ask you for the activation number (by whatever means). My system will be shut down permanently at some point if I try to stay with XP -- unlike Windows 95 where I can find one of my old disks and reload it, even though support is now gone. I think the Ultimate version doesn't do that, but that's unfair IMO coercion to buy that spendy version.

What's funnier is that if one buys the Vista upgrade disk, one can't do a bare install with it. One has to re-install XP first then re-install the upgrade (unlike all previous OS's that just had to be shown the old disk). If it weren't for that activation grace period in XP, one might not even be able to re-install one's Vista later on.

Maybe Microsoft will do the unthinkable then and issue an XP activation-removal patch -- when support is dropped some years from now.


By ThisSpaceForRent on 4/12/2007 5:07:02 PM , Rating: 1
Perhaps I posted to quickly. What I was really trying to say is that if Microsoft stops selling the software (i.e. it is not available for sale in any retail channel) would this make the software abandonware? What is to say that you couldn't provide the software free of charge for download at that point? You're no longer depriving Microsoft of revenue as they no longer sell the product.


I hope the Linux help sites are ready
By Saist on 4/12/2007 1:28:27 PM , Rating: 1
Can't help but look at that and think that if OEM's are ignoring Linux default install requests now, they are going to have a harder time in the future. It's widely agreed that Vista is a lemon, it's flopped in retail sales, and computer sales have taken a dive. Nobody wants it, period, end of story. Forcing it down consumers throats isn't going to work this time.

I just hope the Linux help sites are ready for the influx of new users who finally got the message that Microsoft isn't about the customer, it's about forcing a mandatory tax on computers.




RE: I hope the Linux help sites are ready
By rippleyaliens on 4/12/2007 1:36:30 PM , Rating: 2
I admit i am heavy on the Microsoft side... When Vista, i am disgruntel like ALOT of people out there. BUT, after my Dell precision laptop took a dump with xp on it, with no signs of breathing life... i decided to plunge into the Vista- HEad on.. And i tell you, after 1 week, i notice immediatly how much more productive i am. WEAK points are still driver support, but that is expected.. We went through this, with XP, BIG TIME with win 2000, NT 4, win 98, and more so, with win 95... So we are at a monumental shift in the OS'.. AS we have been many times before..

I am amazed even same hardware, XP versus Vista..
All the talk on the AERO, with lawsuits.. Reminds me of the Retard Joke.. i use the Aero, like alot,, it helps, but it isnt like WOW!!!.. it is just a feature...

As we talk,, i got a quote for a ram upgrade for home, $450 ,,, for 2x2GB ddr2 800 pieces of ram.. Come on people, ram is CHAZZEEPPP..
When XP was first unveiled, a 256mb. dim was $150... Now $150 buys 2x1gb dims... and people still are complaining...

YES OS's get more Ram hungry, and resource hogs.. But also, our hardware is getting rediculous..
1tb hard drives,, 2GB ram for $150, dual CORE cpu's for under $100???
IT is comming, and like the linux guy said,, GET ready for your support calls, lol

MORE so, hope lunux has more software avaliable, other than this free stuff, that no support, other than begging a linux guy for helpp.. And we know how that goes...


By eman7613 on 4/12/2007 2:31:33 PM , Rating: 1
The problem is when you look at them in comparison. Ive got a machine running unbuntu + beryl on 256mb ram, nvidia 5200 and a pentium 4 (thanks dell >.<). It would never ever run vista, it would keel over and die trying, it simply dosent have the juice. Yet it runs fine with unbuntu and beryl on it. It has all the feature of vista, loads stuff in a reasonable time, and looks fairly slick for an old hunk of junk. Yet vista wants a gig to load things in less then 2 seconds and fair gpu to run all those areo affects? Something is missing in just the concept alone when you compare it to what linux has done with less.

Pluss dell still rips people off. I recently did some work for the make a wish foundation, and they bought a desktop from dell for a kid. 1000 bucks (no tax), came with vista basic, 512ram, and microsoft works (problem being only office 2007 works on vista b/c they want more money and dell knows is). Dell is selling this? THey have always sold over price machines with less then par equipment. And vista blows chunks when you do that worse then xp ever did.


RE: I hope the Linux help sites are ready
By PrezWeezy on 4/12/2007 1:43:26 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry man, but I'm a computer tech and I switched to Linux for about 3 months. I had originaly decided to switch so I could learn about Linux. It was so much of a pain I reformated and switched back. I run Fedora 6 in vmware just so I can play with it but I would never run it as my only desktop. And if I won't do it, 99% of the average customers won't do it. Linux is a pain to use for the most part. Don't get me wrong I think it has it's place but I would guess that a very, very small percentage of people are going to switch.

And as long as there is a Linux/Unix/OSX/Solaris etc. out there, it's not mandatory.
Vista is actually a very good OS. It's sales have been down because of compatibility issues, not because it's a bad system. Not many people wanted to switch from 2000 to XP either. Now go out and see how many 2000 machines you find. Face it man, OS's don't do well off the bat, but advancement is important.


RE: I hope the Linux help sites are ready
By melvin76 on 4/12/2007 4:04:16 PM , Rating: 2
No offense, but a really informed computer tech is going to know Unix or a flavor of Linux. Fedora is a pretty user friendly linux flavor. I gave up windows for a year and ran fedora core 4 when it was out. The only reason I swicted back was for gaming, and even that is not worth it.

These companies are dictating how you should spend your money by force feeding you garbage OS'es like this Vista, that requires you to have a DX10 card to really get the most of out the user interface. Big hairy deal. Just so you can say "wow".

Do you research and just see how much crap is loaded in the background of Vista, stupid things such as this content protection and Digital Rights management crap. There was an article a while back either here or on Tom's about what goes on in these background processes, securing the BUS on your motherboard all for this HDCP bogus to work. Now tell me if Vista really is that great an operating system.

XP has been solid, why screw with that. I would go as far and say that XP has probably been the best OS MS has built. I rarely see a BSOD. And if you understand how the OS works, you can certainly tweak it to make it run even more stable with less resources. They started Vista on the right track, like not tying the video drivers so close with the kernel to improve stability, but then they muck it all up with all this other crap like DRM, and change everything arround like instead of "documents and settings" its now "Users" or no more "Add Remove Programs", now its something else (cant member). Stick with a standard!

XP was / is a resource hog as well, but after every build there is at least 10 services I disable that are completley useless for the home usage. I get the memory usage arround 150-160 MBs on XP. A clean install of Vista Buisness, with no apps running your looking at 600+ MB of memory used in task manager. Things like superfetch service to help index your frequently used files, like really. With they way processors and HDs are coming along these days, is this all really needed?

In my experience working in a corporate environment for the last 7 years with the "Technologically inept", XP or linux wouldnt matter to these dummies, as they barely know how to cut and paste as it is, so I would certainly welcome Linux at the office over Vista, on the desktops at least.

This is just another way the big MS is trying to bully its way to a standard, by forcing it upon everyone.


By PrezWeezy on 4/16/2007 8:15:34 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't say I didn't know anything about it, I just said that I didn't like it as my desktop. And to be honest, there are a lot of computer techs that don't know about linux, or DNS, or IP, or SMS, or a whole list of things. You learn your area. If you try to spend your time know everything you never get anything done. That's why I chose not to learn more about linux. It was nice for some things, but for the most part it was far too cumbersome. I know very well the things that apply to my field but I leave the knowing of the other fields to the people who work in them. I would agree that as a tech I should know something, but I don't need to be proficient in it.

As for Vista being a resource hog it is because the thought process on how RAM should be used is different. XP left as much RAM as it could for user programs. Vista takes as much as it can and loads it into RAM to make the UI function more quickly, then releases that RAM for other programs. And people thougth 98SE was as solid as an OS would ever be. Why change it? The fact is progress is a good thing. I couldn't agree more with your idea of sticking to standard menus though. And the number one bottleneck of a computer is the HDD, therefor all those things are needed now. They might not be later, but they are now.


The world shed a tear...
By Soviet Robot on 4/12/2007 11:39:11 AM , Rating: 2
Lame. Hopefully OEM copies will still be plentiful on the internets.




RE: The world shed a tear...
By TwistyKat on 4/12/2007 11:44:44 AM , Rating: 2
Not to be picky, but that should be, "Internets".


RE: The world shed a tear...
By OxBow on 4/12/2007 12:10:09 PM , Rating: 2
That would be a "series of tubes."


Some games won't work with Vista
By Christopher1 on 4/12/2007 4:38:40 PM , Rating: 1
I am not happy that some "real-mode" games will not work with Windows Vista. It's mainly games that are ANCIENT and not even sold anymore, but I am still upset that this is happening.

I've even tried running those real-mode games in XP compatibility mode, and they won't work in that either.

Microsoft is going to have to fix those problems, I didn't like it when I found out that some (actually, almost all!) of my Windows 95 era games wouldn't work on XP, and I'm even unhappier that Microsoft didn't learn their lesson then and skip the incompatibility bullshit.




RE: Some games won't work with Vista
By johnsonx on 4/12/2007 4:52:11 PM , Rating: 2
dosbox


By johnsonx on 4/12/2007 4:54:04 PM , Rating: 2
Announced LONG ago
By Hoser McMoose on 4/12/2007 4:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
This isn't exactly a new thing, it simply Microsoft re-affirming what they announced like 3 or 4 years ago.

Standard Microsoft Windows Life-Cycle policy is to discontinue OEM sales 12 months after the successor to that software is released.

The much more important date is April 14, 2009. That is the date that Microsoft will discontinue "mainstream support" for Windows XP Home and Professional. That's when Microsoft stops adding any new features to Windows XP. After this time most people will want to think about upgrading.

The other date to worry about is April 8, 2014. That is when Microsoft fully retires XP and will stop providing any security fixes for it. At that stage hopefully everyone should have switched to a new OS!

More info available straight from the source:

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?LN=en-us&x...

One nice thing about Microsoft, they make these dates known WELL in advance, so it's not like this kind of thing should be a surprise to anyone that might be affected.




RE: Announced LONG ago
By Hoser McMoose on 4/12/2007 4:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
Ohh, just as an add-on to my first post, I should note that Windows 2000 is already in the 'Extended Support' phase. Hence the reason why Internet Explorer 7 was NOT released for Win2K. It is still getting security updates (just got 3 of 'em today on my work computer).

Windows 2000 will be completely retired (no more security updates) July 13, 2010.


You can still downgrade
By Colin1497 on 4/12/2007 12:20:42 PM , Rating: 4
Business users can, and will, install XP for a LONG time. Those nice OEM copies of Vista will get reformatted into XP. The license allows it.




RE: You can still downgrade
By GlassHouse69 on 4/13/07, Rating: -1
Didn't say retail
By INeedCache on 4/12/2007 2:33:44 PM , Rating: 3
Article stated OEM versions. I'm sure retail copies of XP will be around for quite some time. So it's not as if someone who wants or needs XP won't be able to get it, they just won't have the OEM option.




XP to be discontinued by year's end
By DDG on 4/13/2007 8:44:56 AM , Rating: 2
I guess this shouldn't come as a suprise. XP is the only real competitor for Vista.




catch 101
By Chief ADFP on 4/16/2007 8:04:49 AM , Rating: 2
to many catches to Vista versions
you don't buy the higher full package deal you have all your files you made lock away. no lie

system will not work with older Windows software in the pass Computability been remove.

you can't even use windows Xp software 3rd party you may have paid for last year with Vista.

don't like catch 101
1.) old files lock for good get them unlock you have to buy the full package deal? blackmail i call it
2.) no use of older software for older system.

they down graded it then give it a face left? gee Vista look more like a apple OS 10 in the way it looks and act like.




Newegg still good?
By FITCamaro on 4/12/2007 12:01:24 PM , Rating: 1
Will we still be able to get it on newegg? It says third party will still be available. For those of us who don't buy overpriced OEM PCs (not including laptops), whether or not Dell sells it really doesn't matter.




"Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment -- same piece of hardware -- paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be." -- Steve Ballmer









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