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Linspire is the latest company to sign a deal with Microsoft

Even though the two companies used to be fierce rivals, it was just announced that Microsoft and Linspire signed a Windows and Linux interoperability agreement.  The agreement will make sure Linspire operating system users are not in violation of Microsoft intellectual patents and property.  Much like other agreements made by Microsoft, the agreement will "enhance interoperability and expand the functionality of Linspire."

Linspire is likely best known for promoting the the "Lindows" operating system, a Linux distribution traditionally used on low-price consumer desktops.

The Microsoft Live Search service will become the default Internet search engine for Linspire users.  Also, future versions of Linspire will support Windows Media 10 video and audio codecs, allowing for media files to be better shared between the two operating systems.

"Linspire has always been about choice, and this announcement continues our tradition of offering options for improved interoperability, enhanced functionality and confidence," said Kevin Carmony, Linspire chief executive.

Microsoft grabbed headlines late last year after both Microsoft and Steve Ballmer made a claim on Linux code and patents.  The company said Linux infringes on as many as 235 Microsoft patents, a claim vehemently denied by members of the open source community.   

Microsoft has signed multiple agreements with different Linux providers.  The company has already signed cross-licensing deals with Novell, Samsung and Xandros, LG Electronics, with more agreements on the horizon.

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Haha
By iFX on 6/15/07, Rating: 0
RE: Haha
By ted61 on 6/15/07, Rating: -1
RE: Haha
By creathir on 6/15/2007 11:39:00 AM , Rating: 5
No offense Ted, but Linux is no where near on its way to mainstream.

People have been saying that for 12 years now...

Linux serves a tremendous purpose, but it will never be mainstream for one reason: ease of use.

I know I know, GUI installers have made is fairly simple, but if you run into a problem, what happens? You have to go into the CLI to address it. If X video card does not get along with Y. Or if you want to install X software, 30 Y updates must be installed, but now Z software does not work with 5 of the Y updates.

It is the most ridiculous thing on earth.

For devices such as servers or things where the hardware is in a controlled environment, it is a fantastic OS. For the average, non-techy desktop user, it is the absolute worst thing you could install on their machine.

"If it was setup properly in the first place, it would not crash."

This is true of any OS. The problem is, people like to mess with that $1200 equipment they purchased. They enjoy trying new software or playing the latest games. Many times, with Linux, the mere task of installing a piece of software can be almost daunting.

Linux, unless some more uniformity is brought to it, and changes are made such that kernel/software updates are not as common, Linux will never blossom to its full potential. It is almost at a point, where the lack of organization if you will is hindering it back. Obviously it must always remain open source, but the community really needs to step up and organize themselves, across the board.

For instance, decide on a distribution model. Choose on yum or one of the others. It is insane that there are actually variants to this.

"But they are separate distros"

I know this. But if you want to grow Linux, and become "mainstream", issues like this must be resolved. Things are being made more complex than they need to be.

Just some thoughts, not attacking anyone or anything. In my view, if ted61's dream of a mainstream Linux will ever happen, some of these issues need to be addressed.

- Creathir


RE: Haha
By darkpaw on 6/15/2007 12:50:34 PM , Rating: 5
I wasn't sure if I should rate you up, or just reply.

I think all of those points are very important and things that the Linux backers really need to push if they are ever going to get more mainstream exceptance. The lack of a standard installer is one of the biggest issues in my book. As a highly technical user it drivers me nuts trying to find the right package sometimes (or try to fix all dependancy issues and compile it myself) and you're not going to get granny to compile the code from source. Windows you either get a self installing exe or an msi file. Thats it, works on every system.

I've been hearing back to my freshman year in college (10 years ago) how any day now Linux is going to take over the desktop. It has improved leaps and bounds in that time, but so has Windows. If Linux ever stands a chance in the home market, it will need to become more standardized and more support friendly.


RE: Haha
By cochy on 6/15/07, Rating: -1
RE: Haha
By darkpaw on 6/15/2007 2:12:46 PM , Rating: 3
Its exactly the package management programs that need work. When each distro uses something else (even though I think most at least use either yum or rpm) that is a barrier to entry for your average user.


RE: Haha
By colonelclaw on 6/15/2007 1:56:48 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
It has improved leaps and bounds in that time, but so has Windows


an absolute killer sentence if there ever was one, so absolutely true


RE: Haha
By creathir on 6/15/2007 4:17:57 PM , Rating: 2
Most definitely. I was thinking about this at lunch.
They need to come up with InstallSword or something like. Some form of standard installer. (RPMs are great, but not when you need 50 other RPMs to preinstall first)

Standardization on something basic such as that, is a must. To break out into mainstream, its required.

- Creathir


RE: Haha
By ted61 on 6/15/2007 4:57:14 PM , Rating: 2
You guys are right about how hard it is to maintain Linux on a desktop. It is easy for someone who is willing to work to get things going. People come visit and use a linux computer for basic tasks and don't notice a difference. Of course, I set the computer up to run for them.

My website, where I document PCLinuxOS, gets more than 90% of its hits for the post on "how to install ATI drivers in PCLinux". In that post I describe the basic terminal commands that will need to be used for the operation.

Drivers are tough. I used a computer with an ATI video card because it is much harder to install nVidia drivers.

I like to use Linux for all of the programming and photo editing applications that come with it. I play around with these programs just to see how they work. I do not want to pay thousands of dollars just to see how things work.

I like competition. If a free program is good enough for me to use as a primary program, I make a donation to the creators.

I don't really forsee much standardization in the Linux world because there are so many "elite's" out there who do not want to cooperate. There is a reason people don't like to visit the Linux forums more than once.


RE: Haha
By cochy on 6/15/2007 9:58:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Drivers are tough. I used a computer with an ATI video card because it is much harder to install nVidia drivers.


I honestly don't know where you're coming from either. Nvidia is known for their wide ranging Linux support + BSD support + Solaris support. I haven't had 1 issue with Nvida cards in any non Windows system. I have never tried with ATI because I know that Nvidia have much better support in this area. So you're way off track here I'm affraid. Just have a look at their website.


RE: Haha
By chsh1ca on 6/16/2007 1:47:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I have never tried with ATI because I know that Nvidia have much better support in this area.

I have never tried [something] because I know that [something else] works much better than the [something], which I never tried...

How does that add up? You *know* yet you have never tried it? WTF?

Four years ago, hardware support might have been an issue, but nowadays it really isn't.


RE: Haha
By leexgx on 6/17/2007 7:47:58 PM , Rating: 2
why i mostly did not uses ATI video cards was due problems i had in the shop with them now there no point in testing ATI cards as my 8800 GTX is happy in my pc (for TV out ATI cards rule)

back to the linux issue that is the main problem with the OS it self no one does it an set way ubuntu is an intresting step simple add/remove programs

but say if i wanted to add an HDD under linux i most likey bet it invove messing with config files
on an NT based system (NT=XP vista so on) all i have to do is goto disk man and make format it takes the best part of 30 secs to get the disk up and running

i predicted from the way it was going it was going to be ready alot sooner then this but at the speed its going i have to give it 5-10 years before some all the distros get there act and work with each other and make it alot easyer to work with


RE: Haha
By cochy on 6/15/2007 4:58:15 PM , Rating: 1
When there are dependencies that need to be installed they are automatically installed at the same time. What's wrong with this? It's all an atomic process.


RE: Haha
By darkpaw on 6/15/2007 5:30:17 PM , Rating: 2
That depends on several things, like for one having an active internet connection on the computer. For example, the lab computers where I work do not have internet connections at all. They are on a completely isolated network for testing only. If I want to install something on one of those I need to make sure I have everything I need on a usb drive or cd.

It took me several hours to get VMware server installed on the Ubuntu server box, compared to about five minutes on the Windows box. Installing Java was even worse since the sun package was an RPM.

Some of the package management programs are pretty good, but it should never have to go out to the internet to get dependancies. If you need something, include it in the package.


RE: Haha
By cochy on 6/15/2007 10:03:55 PM , Rating: 2
Yes have an Internet connection makes things easier. What was the issue getting VMware Server to work? Finally yes Java is a huge pain compared to Windows. That has to do with licensing I believe.


RE: Haha
By creathir on 6/15/2007 5:53:38 PM , Rating: 2
It is absolutely awesome that it does this, on your distro.

Some distros don't, others do, but with other technologies, and sometimes the dependencies installed by one piece of software (the updates) cause another piece of software to crap out. A more, centralized system needs to be developed to make this stuff work across the board. The purpose of the distros was to have custom packages for each one, so they have their own look and feel. (Slackware feels totally different than Fedora)

I am just saying it needs to be better managed. Currently, the independent pieces need to be brought together under one banner. You could still have the separate pieces, but these key things (Xorg, yum, rpms) need to be resolved across the board.

- Creathir


RE: Haha
By SmokeRngs on 6/18/2007 10:12:50 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I know I know, GUI installers have made is fairly simple, but if you run into a problem, what happens? You have to go into the CLI to address it. If X video card does not get along with Y. Or if you want to install X software, 30 Y updates must be installed, but now Z software does not work with 5 of the Y updates.


The only time I have run into this is with obscure third party software which is usually old. Most of those times, it was because of the way Linux runs things. It doesn't allow three different versions of the same dependency installed. This is due to stability reasons and one of the reasons Linux is a hell of a lot more stable and possibly more secure than Windows.

quote:
For devices such as servers or things where the hardware is in a controlled environment, it is a fantastic OS. For the average, non-techy desktop user, it is the absolute worst thing you could install on their machine.


The average, "non-techy" desktop user is the person that constantly screws up their machine with spyware, viruses and shitty software. This is the person that has to have their OS re-installed every couple of months because it's "slow". You've just made a point for Linux there since it's the best OS which could be installed on their machine.

quote:
Linux, unless some more uniformity is brought to it, and changes are made such that kernel/software updates are not as common, Linux will never blossom to its full potential. It is almost at a point, where the lack of organization if you will is hindering it back. Obviously it must always remain open source, but the community really needs to step up and organize themselves, across the board.


Frequent kernel and software updates are a good thing. Do you want to count the number of times it took MS ages to get a security or compatibility fix out if they even bothered with it at all? I know I sure wouldn't considering MS's track record here. It's interesting that you would take something positive and try to spin it as a negative.

Also, there is no actual need to have compatibility across the board. This limits choices and innovation. Who says one type of package manager is better than another? Do you know how every package manager will be developed over the next five or even ten years? There are reasons repositories exist.

quote:
I know this. But if you want to grow Linux, and become "mainstream", issues like this must be resolved. Things are being made more complex than they need to be.


No, it's not more complex than it needs to be. It's called choices. I notice you did not include the differences between installers for other operating systems. You can't run an exe or msi on MacOS to install that program for example. There is no mainstream "installer" period. You are doing nothing more than looking out from the confines of your own usage. Uniformity does not exist in the computer world as you seem to think.


RE: Haha
By RHP on 6/20/2007 5:31:36 PM , Rating: 2
I believe that Linux is democratic, not fascist like MS. If Linux arrives to mainstream, to our desktops, it's Microsoft's end. That's truth about this "funny" patents thing. That Balmer picture it's scary and demonstrate the Microsoft's purposes, but denotes some deep fear on MS' soul.
MS' products are in 90% of desktops because they has "windowed" many minds as they can, that's reality. Linux desktop it's possible and I wish to see it made real.

RHP


RE: Haha
By chsh1ca on 6/16/2007 1:56:28 AM , Rating: 2
Personally I found OpenSuSE to be the best distro out there, but that probably boils down to taste.

It's still not as easy to use/maintain as Windows is, but personally, I don't really want it to be.


RE: Haha
By overlandpark4me on 6/15/2007 2:51:35 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft doesn't make "deals", unless they perceive someone as a threat, which is exactly what that company was becoming. Laughing it off isn't the correct response.


Good deal
By mdogs444 on 6/15/07, Rating: 0
RE: Good deal
By devolutionist on 6/15/2007 9:15:16 AM , Rating: 3
"That means better end products for the end users."

How?

The only thing I see this doing is forcing the Linspire developers to stay with a "box" (the Microsoft box no less). So please explain how putting limits on innovation is good for end users.


RE: Good deal
By mdogs444 on 6/15/2007 9:34:23 AM , Rating: 2
I am saying it from the point that Linspire now has the ability to use some of microsofts patents to develop more products for us to choose from. Whether we like them or not, and whether they benefit us or not, is besides the point. More selections are always better.


RE: Good deal
By MrPickins on 6/15/2007 10:26:05 AM , Rating: 5
But it effectively makes the software no longer open-source.

I thought that was the whole point of Linux...


RE: Good deal
By Xenoterranos on 6/15/2007 1:00:37 PM , Rating: 1
And I think you just hit on Microsoft's point...


RE: Good deal
By MonkeyPaw on 6/15/2007 6:54:35 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I think MS was happy to sign this deal knowing that Linspire will be supporting its Media codecs as well as the Live! search engine. MS is late to the dedicated search engine game, so I think they are willing to give a little in order to promote their standards and ideas. It just helps them sell more of everything else they make other than windows.


RE: Good deal
By Dactyl on 6/16/2007 11:46:47 PM , Rating: 2
But it effectively makes the software no longer open-source.

The Lindows source code is open for anyone's inspection and it's licensed for anyone's use under GPL 2.0, right?

That means it's still open source.


Is Microsoft's Business Model changing?
By AntiM on 6/15/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Microsoft's Business Model changing?
By darkpaw on 6/15/2007 12:52:21 PM , Rating: 2
If you think a MS linux distro isn't far fetched, you must be smoking something.


By AntiM on 6/15/2007 3:48:10 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe so, we'll see in about 10 years. One thing is certain, there's more going on with these deals than simple patent mongering. Is MS embracing Linux or are they trying to stomp it out ? Since they must realize they have not hope of stomping it out... then what are they up to?


By ZeeStorm on 6/19/2007 9:29:53 AM , Rating: 2
What it seems to me, they quote that Microsoft, in the agreement, forced them to default the search engine to Live Search (which sucks, by the way). It seems like this is MS' tactic to try and shut out Google. Everything Microsoft does has another intent. That seems a bit more logical and MS-typical than trying to have real partnerships with Linux. What better than free advertisement to an OS you don't want to touch? Scare them to death and simply ask them to force users to default to their standards. Mhmm.


their choice ....
By mforce on 6/15/2007 9:26:13 AM , Rating: 2
The way I see it it's all about choices and if Linspire chose to go the MS way than fine , maybe it's a good move. I don't see it as such and I'm sure open source will provide the same interoperability sooner or later but it'll be open source and free. And yeah , sure MS will keep complaining about patents and stuff but I don't care. My favourite Linus distro , Frugalware doesn't take this MS fud seriously. Maybe the big distros will all go the MS way but we'll always have a choice with Linux cause it belongs to no one.




this doesnt bode well
By colonelclaw on 6/15/2007 10:22:26 AM , Rating: 2
this seemly neverending gold rush for i.p. worries me. the large and powerful companies have the most to gain here with their armies of lawyers coming down hard on the smaller startups, who in many cases just want to bring out fresh products and give something back to the open source movement.
patenting something just for the sake of it when you dont really have much of an inclination to actually release a product based on the patent means we all lose out in the long run

it's easy to get drawn into an anti-microsoft line here, but the way i see it many of the ideas behind how windows looks and works seems pretty borrowed from other operating systems, so it's distictly a case of the pot calling the kettle black

things may have not gotten totally out of hand just yet, but the pessimist in me is seeing a marketplace in 5 years that has far fewer opportunities for real innovation, because all the underlying technologies may already be in the hands of the big hitters




Then... LGA is comming.
By greylica on 6/15/07, Rating: 0
"There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere." -- Isaac Asimov











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