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Print 85 comment(s) - last by kelmon.. on Dec 17 at 2:25 AM

Opera sets its sights on Microsoft

Just when we all thought that things were finally dying down for Microsoft in the European Commission-based anti-trust case there is now more fuel to add to the fire.

Opera Software ASA, maker of the Opera web browser, yesterday officially filed a complaint with the European Commission regarding Microsoft's inclusion of Internet Explorer with Windows. Opera wants the EU to force Microsoft to provide users with a choice of web browser to use.

"We are filing this complaint on behalf of all consumers who are tired of having a monopolist make choices for them," said Opera CEO Jon von Tetzchner. "In addition to promoting the free choice of individual consumers, we are a champion of open Web standards and cross-platform innovation. We cannot rest until we've brought fair and equitable options to consumers worldwide."

Opera is seeking the following actions from the EU to "keep Microsoft in line" with respects to its competitors:

  • Remove Internet Explorer from its Windows operating systems. Opera is also asking that Microsoft allow for other web browsers to be pre-installed with Windows along with desktop icons for each respective browser.
  • Force Microsoft to comply with open Web standards brought forth by Web-authoring communities.

"Our complaint is necessary to get Microsoft to amend its practices," said Jason Hoida, Deputy General Counsel for Opera. "The European Court of First Instance confirmed in September that Microsoft has illegally tied Windows Media Player to Windows. We are simply asking the Commission to apply these same, clear principles to the Internet Explorer tie, a tie that has even more profound effects on consumers and innovation."

As many may recall, Microsoft finally gave up its fight with the EU in late October. The Redmond, Washington-based company came under fire for its monopolistic business practices in Europe and was ordered to pay a fine of $710 million USD.

In addition, Microsoft was also forced to provide interoperability information to its software competitors and reduce the royalties for its software licenses and patents. To add insult to injury, Microsoft was also forced to pay 80 percent of the European Commission’s legal fees.



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Tired of complaints.
By Eurasianman on 12/13/2007 3:07:48 PM , Rating: 1
Where in the world does it say when you run a Microsoft Operating System, that you have to use Internet Explorer?!

Didn't think so. The first thing I normally do when I install Microsoft Windows is use Internet Explorer to download FireFox (which is my personal browser of choice).

Also, with Windows Vista, you don't even have to use Internet Explorer to get Windows Updates.

If Opera doesn't like it, why don't they just go and develop their own operating system!?

IMHO, Microsoft never forced anyone to use Internet Explorer. The end user was just not intelligent enough to realize that there are alternatives to IE.




RE: Tired of complaints.
By clovell on 12/13/2007 3:11:18 PM , Rating: 2
> The first thing I normally do when I install Microsoft Windows is use Internet Explorer to download FireFox (which is my personal browser of choice).


I go one further and keep the latest Firefox install on a flash drive - that way I don't have to use IE at all.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Screwballl on 12/13/2007 3:31:16 PM , Rating: 1
Does linux force you to use Konquerer or Firefox? No you have the option to use other browsers and several come installed on most distros.

When you buy a new car, are you forced to buy the cheap radio that comes with it or do they give you the option to remove it and use something else? Definitely.

So why should our OS be any different, It is an OS, not an OS + browser + media player + whatever else. We should not be forced to install its sluggish overbearing MS crap just to use the host OS. I have thought this for years.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By anotherdude on 12/13/2007 3:40:36 PM , Rating: 3
[quote]Does linux force you to use Konquerer or Firefox? No you have the option to use other browsers and several come installed on most distros.[/quote]

That's nice but so what? Should you be required BY LAW to include browser choices in an OS of YOUR creation?


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Micronite on 12/13/2007 3:42:59 PM , Rating: 5
It's brilliant, actually...

1) Get the EU to force Microsoft to distribute your browser with every copy of Windows.

2) Charge Microsoft royalties for every copy of Opera distributed with Windows.

3) Buy a summer home in Tuscany.

I'll be over here writing my own notepad app. This could get lucrative.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By dnd728 on 12/13/2007 4:23:01 PM , Rating: 2
MS should just sell windows without IE in Europe. Then they can go download Opera.

Or better, sell it with a million crapware from the internet to cover all corners.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By FITCamaro on 12/13/2007 4:26:58 PM , Rating: 2
They already do offer Windows XP without IE and Windows Media player in Europe. It's just not any cheaper than the version with it.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Mitch101 on 12/13/2007 5:07:32 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that stupid people having problems with the Opera browser will call Microsoft for support. But it came with my operating system.

I would agree Windows without IE is a good solution but you should never be forced to carry a competitors product in your own distribution. How would you download a Browser without one though. I can only laugh at the irony.

Its obvious that the EU commission has a dislike for Microsoft. If this passes I hope Microsoft charges even more for the software.

EU Govt sticks Microsoft and Microsoft sticks the users with the bill.

You think you will win if MS is forced to include Opera I'm betting even if Opera wins the consumer loses.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Oregonian2 on 12/13/2007 9:20:31 PM , Rating: 2
As mentioned in the news report I read about it earlier, the problem is the same as the media player, so the solution, if anything, would likely be the same as well. The version of XP they sell in Europe w/o media player can be sold w/o IE as well. And it'll continue not to sell.

Always thought they'd discount it proportionally to the byte-count of the entire distribution. Should knock off at least half a Euro for the IE/MP free version.

Personally I still don't understand the problem. Firefox (etc) is what I use by choice w/o problem of IE being there. Likewise, other media players work fine too.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Eurasianman on 12/13/2007 5:12:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS should just sell windows without IE in Europe. Then they can go download Opera.


And how do they go about downloading their internet browser if there isn't one in the first place?

Yea, just type in apt-get... oh wait, you can't do that in Windows -.-


RE: Tired of complaints.
By TomZ on 12/13/2007 5:32:40 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And how do they go about downloading their internet browser if there isn't one in the first place?

That wouldn't be Microsoft's problem, now would it?

It would actually be pretty stupid for Opera to ask Microsoft to remove IE, since as you point out, it would make it even more difficult for users to download and install Opera.

But to answer your question more directly, Microsoft could choose to include within Windows a tool or tools that have the ability to, when run, download and install Opera and/or other browsers. This is actually quite easy to do.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By schkrat on 12/14/2007 2:58:33 AM , Rating: 2
Note! Windows explorer is also capable of web browsing.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By tomal on 12/14/2007 8:09:20 AM , Rating: 2
windows explorer uses IE to render the pages. That is why you cannot fully uninstall IE from ur system. Many other applications also use IE to render webpages within themselves.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Polynikes on 12/14/2007 12:47:58 PM , Rating: 2
That would be a pain in the ass, you'd have to go out of your way to download your browser of choice on another box, instead of quickly firing up IE and downloading it directly to your machine, which would be much faster.

Do I need or use IE? Hell no, but what happened to a free market? This would be akin to a car manufacturer putting their own brand of tires on a car they sell, and having a competitor whine about it. They're well within their rights to offer whatever accessories they want to package with their product.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By qwertyz on 12/14/2007 7:52:06 AM , Rating: 1
since Law and Justice are becoming more and more retarded and people are becoming more money greedy there's no wonder such stupid lawsuits take place.

This Opera lawsuit is more than stupid.
Now just imagine a similar case with a retarded justice like the one of these days when Antivirus companies sue Microsoft over it's secure OS and force them to infect every Windows version with dozens of viruses right out the box so the user should be forced to buy an antivirus to clean it from the factory infected OS.
Now how stupid this scenario sounds ? this is ultra mega incredibly stupid but it doesn't differ to much from what Opera asks right now from Microsoft.

So don't be to surprised to see lawsuits like these because as seen the Justice is becoming the most retarded thing in the world.

With a justice like this the present and future is start to looking more and more RETARDED.
And did you think the future will look rosy THINK AGAIN


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Spivonious on 12/13/2007 3:46:10 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
When you buy a new car, are you forced to buy the cheap radio that comes with it or do they give you the option to remove it and use something else? Definitely.


Umm...I don't know where you're buying your cars, but you're usually given the choice between 2 or 3 different radios made by the car maker. Of course, nothing is stopping you from buying an aftermarket radio and having it installed. Just as nothing is stopping you from downloading a different web browser.

And anyway, wasn't this case already decided way back when Netscape brought anti-trust litigation against MS?


RE: Tired of complaints.
By FITCamaro on 12/13/2007 3:46:10 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
So why should our OS be any different, It is an OS, not an OS + browser + media player + whatever else. We should not be forced to install its sluggish overbearing MS crap just to use the host OS. I have thought this for years.


So do you feel the same about Apple including Safari in OSX? How about iTunes? Quicktime?

You only don't like it because Microsoft doing it. If you don't like their programs, you don't ever have to use them. But yes they are bundled with the OS. It's called added value. And yes they highly integrate their software because it works better that way. They're not doing anything Apple doesn't do. But you anti-Microsoft people always forget this.

Besides, if they didn't bundle in a web browser, how would you go get other web browsers from the web? Oh right you couldn't. You'd have to have it on a CD or flash drive. Since you need to have a web browser bundled in so you can go get other ones, which do you suppose they're going to include? Theirs or someone else's?

Should they be required to provide someone else's with their software? No. It's theirs. They wrote it. If you don't like it, don't use it.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Mitch101 on 12/13/2007 4:16:31 PM , Rating: 2
The best comment I have heard by an attorney was in the Netscape trial where they were suing over IE being included with Windows and Netscape wanted their browser included with the sale of Windows and make the user choose.

"What your asking is that for every six pack of Coke sold there should be one can that is a Pepsi."

If I want Opera I will download it but last I recall it was buggy and they wanted to charge me for it. No Thanks.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Clenathan on 12/13/2007 11:04:03 PM , Rating: 1
It's not buggy, they do not charge you for it, and there are no pop-ups, NEVER.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Staples on 12/14/2007 9:23:59 AM , Rating: 2
I have used Opera for the last two years (when it went free). It is the best browser out there as far as I am concerned and it is not and never was buggy since I have been using it. However, there is a site or two that I have seen where I have to use IE because they do not like Opera and they do not load if they detect it.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 5:01:13 AM , Rating: 2
There are merits to what you are saying and other areas where you miss the point of all this by a country mile. Let's look at where you hit the mark first:

Is the bundling of iTunes and QuickTime by Apple the same as the bundling of IE in Windows? Yes, if we are discussing the playback of proprietary file formats used by both applications. Both if both QuickTime and iTunes only played standard formats then there is no issue since then you could use another application to play back the media files but there is a problem with the likes of Apple Protected AAC since you MUST use iTunes for this. However, you can also argue that Real Networks has the same issue since you MUST use Real Player to playback Real Audio files.

Where do you miss the mark? Well, here:

Do you NEED a web browser to install a new application? Absolutely, categorically, no. Look at Linux (I don't use it, incidentally, but I'm not blind either) and you will see that almost all offer a GUI application that enables you to browser libraries of software and download without ever touching a web browser. Heck, I remember using FTP repositories before I ever touched Netscape.

Why is IE a problem when Safari is not? Simply because IE doesn't render the web correctly and the result of this and Window's dominant position in the market are IE-only sites and applications. Since Microsoft refuses to change the only way to break this Catch-22 situation, seemingly, is via litigation. Safari is not an issue here because it's a standards-compliant browser and therefore can be replaced by Opera very easily.

Finally, the "don't like it, don't use it" statement is either massively naive or just ignoring the real world. I don't like Windows or IE much but I still have to use it at work because that's what desktop applications and intranet applications need. The world is not as flexible as you suggest but does need to change if competition is to occur fully.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By MrPieGuy on 12/13/2007 5:27:54 PM , Rating: 1
Does Windows force you to use IE? Cause last I checked, I can download any internet browser I wanted.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 4:11:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So why should our OS be any different, It is an OS, not an OS + browser + media player + whatever else. We should not be forced to install its sluggish overbearing MS crap just to use the host OS. I have thought this for years.


This sort of misses the issue. The problem is not the bundling of applications with the OS but rather the ease with which you can use a competitor's product (i.e. you should be able to switch without penalty). Because IE has resulted in IE-only web sites you can't switch to Opera, Firefox or Safari without penalty. Both Windows Media Player and iTunes are guilty of this offense - you need to use these applications to play DRMed media, although there are plenty of players that you can install that understand standard media formats.

Really, this issue boils down to file formats rather than applications. While HTML is supposed to be a standard, Microsoft has almost managed to create its own version by interpreting it differently to everyone else. If file formats are open and interpreted the same then competition can exist between the applications that read them as long as nothing prevents you from removing and installing them. Proprietary file formats or attempts to hijack open formats should be avoided.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By DragonMaster0 on 12/14/2007 7:24:31 PM , Rating: 2
What about Mac OS? It comes with Safari, QuickTime, iTunes, iBloat, etc. and no one sues them even if there are free alternatives. Safari renders lost of pages poorly and QuickTime has lots of security holes, still, no one bothers using other software. I hear lots of Mac users complaining that they can't use some websites. However, nobody takes the time to install Firefox, the reason they don't know how to do it. Mac's simple, right...

That's just because it comes with tons of preinstalled software, that's exactly what Apple uses in their advertising campaign, they say Mac can do lots of things, and Windows can't do anything... stock.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Alexstarfire on 12/13/2007 5:38:58 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, you are always forced to use some part of IE regardless of what web browser you use, I believe. Have any of you people used nLite? You can remove a component called IE Core, but if you do you can never use the internet. I believe that Microsoft shouldn't embed the internet into the OS, but that's it.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 12/14/2007 8:55:26 AM , Rating: 2
In Vista, IE was unchained from the system, this is no longer an issue.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By TomZ on 12/14/2007 5:26:00 PM , Rating: 2
Are you sure about this? How do you uninstall IE in Vista?


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Quiescent on 12/13/2007 10:07:04 PM , Rating: 1
I thought we already went over this IE bullshit years ago?
I mean I was a baby when that case came along, but I specifically remember hearing about it around my young'n years.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 4:01:52 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Where in the world does it say when you run a Microsoft Operating System, that you have to use Internet Explorer?!


The answer: on any web site that is designed for IE

Here's the crux of the issue - IE renders HTML differently to pretty much any other browser. Quite a lot of web sites and, particularly, corporate applications, require IE to render content correctly since most of the world uses IE and enabling the site to render correctly in other browsers requires more work. As a consequence of this, if you want to be able to access pretty much all web sites you need to be running both Internet Explorer and Windows. This, of course, has introduced a wonderful Catch-22 situation that Opera is trying to resolve since Microsoft won't conform to standards accepted by everyone else. Until IE renders according to the web standards site designers will continue to make IE-only pages that prevent people from switching to alternative browsers.

This situation isn't so bad on the Web in general these days but pretty much all corporate applications require IE.

So, is this an issue of Microsoft bundling IE with Windows? No. It's an issue with Microsoft (with the "help" of Netscape years ago during the Browser Wars) having created a 2-tier Web that should be accessible to all browsers but where parts of it are handcuffed to IE and Windows. This is not how the Web should be and it's not going to change unless IE conforms to standards. I highly doubt that anyone would argue against the merits of this - standards benefit all.


RE: Tired of complaints.
By tomal on 12/14/2007 8:10:38 AM , Rating: 2
i 100% agree !

lets hope firefox 3 & opera 9/9.5 pushes more adoption towards web standards


RE: Tired of complaints.
By Jack Ripoff on 12/14/2007 9:33:05 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think that's a problem at all. Actually, I think no modern operating system should come without a browser.

The only problems I see are that you can't uninstall IE if you want to and that IE isn't a standards compliant browser.


Rediculous
By pauldovi on 12/13/2007 3:05:28 PM , Rating: 4
Windows is a Microsoft product, they have the full right to install whatever they want on it. The reality of the matter is, as long as people have something that works (IE) they are happy. They don't want to have to make any choices or do any configuring.

Is Microsoft going to have to start installing 4 different kinds of solitaire, paint, notepad, and every other component of Windows?




RE: Rediculous
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 12/13/2007 4:17:37 PM , Rating: 3
Notice they only file in the EU, not in the U.S. or other countries?

I'm not saying anything but the EU seems to have a pattern going here.


RE: Rediculous
By FITCamaro on 12/13/2007 4:31:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I'm not saying anything but the EU seems to have a pattern going here.


I'll say it then. The EU sucks. Everything they sued Microsoft for in the past was being done by Apple. But Apple didn't have any money for them to steal so they ignored them. If OSX was to ever replace Windows at the dominant OS in the world, they'd sue Apple too.


RE: Rediculous
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 4:21:25 AM , Rating: 2
The EU does not suck - it's standing up for the rights of the consumer and not kowtowing to big business. That the US courts have not sorted this issue out already is damning on their part for complicitly allowing Microsoft to hijack what is supposed to be an open communications medium, i.e. the World Wide Web. Microsoft abused its position as the dominant desktop OS provider by distributing a browser that does not comply with web standards for the past decade and therefore created an IE-only Web.

The EU, in case you missed the news, is addressing Apple's iPod/iTunes monopoly so don't suggest that they are turning a blind eye to this. Apple, however, is safe with it's distribution of Safari with OS X since you can replace it with other browsers without penalty; the same is largely true with much of the other bundled applications in OS X in the same way that you can replace Windows Notepad if you want to.


RE: Rediculous
By Montrevux on 12/15/2007 11:35:34 AM , Rating: 2
What? There are absolutely NO rights of the consumer. The only right you have in a free market is the right NOT to buy their product. The reason this tripe isn't going on in the US is because they believe in more economical freedom than the EU.


RE: Rediculous
By kelmon on 12/17/2007 2:25:04 AM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry, I must have imagined all that anti-trust stuff years ago then and the requested extensions to monitoring of Microsoft's activities in the US.

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone can support Microsoft's position in this - they have willfully implemented a browser within their monopoly OS that "breaks" the World Wide Web. Don't want to buy their product - don't but then the web sites/applications you want to use won't work because they are IE-only. As I have said many times already this is a Catch-22 situation and do you really think that Microsoft is going to resolve this? No. Can you honestly see a situation where another browser manufacturer is going to be able to resolve this situation by producing a product that is so much better than IE that its market share is competed away? No.

The free market is great when it works but in this case we have allowed it to become broken. As the old adage goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" - the browser market is, unfortunately, broken thanks to Microsoft and Netscape and now it needs fixing.


RE: Rediculous
By euclidean on 12/13/2007 4:31:04 PM , Rating: 2
The only part I agree with in this "requirement" or whatever is that Windows Update in XP requires IE...now that's changed in Vista, and there are many add-ons/plugins for FF to make it act like IE so you don't ever have to...but that's really the only thing I could see them going against....other than that...Nothing is stopping you from changing your browser.

"FireFox was not detected as your default browser, would you like it to make it so?" IE has the same thing...and it also has a check box to unselect so it doesn't ever ask you that again....how hard is that? lol....crazy corporate bastards lol.


RE: Rediculous
By S3anister on 12/13/2007 6:17:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Remove Internet Explorer from its Windows operating systems.


Do people not understand that you need a web browser in an operating system??? I'm amazed that they're still going on with this ten year old waste of debate...


RE: Rediculous
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 4:28:24 AM , Rating: 2
Please explain to me why a web browser is a required application. Surely the only function that the OS has to provide is the ability to run applications - there is nothing to say that the user ever wants to or needs a web browser. Yes, I do expect a browser to be delivered in the basic install but it is not needed for the OS to function. A browser, though, is not required to obtain new applications as the common floppy disk and applications such as those used in Linux distributions to download new applications has proven.


RE: Rediculous
By 3kliksphilip on 12/14/2007 8:34:57 AM , Rating: 2
With out Internet Explorer, how are you going to be able to install any other browsers from a fresh installation of Windows?

...Unless you had to have a disc, which would suck.


RE: Rediculous
By Jack Ripoff on 12/14/2007 9:43:24 AM , Rating: 2
That's a problem with how Windows was designed.

Installing software on Windows is a nightmare unless you have a disc. Otherwise you have to seek over the Internet for the software you want - and there's no guarantee the software you are downloading is trustworthy.

Other operating systems offer you package management systems and centralized, secure, updated repositories of software packages available to be installed at any moment with a single command.


Seems Opera is learning from the pros...
By masher2 (blog) on 12/13/2007 3:09:32 PM , Rating: 5
If you can't innovate...litigate.




By bighairycamel on 12/13/2007 3:16:12 PM , Rating: 2
Yah it seems as though Opera is using this to push their own browser onto Windows users, which is what they are complaining about Microsoft doing. Corporate hypocrisy at its finest.


RE: Seems Opera is learning from the pros...
By MatthewAC on 12/13/2007 3:17:59 PM , Rating: 2
Hehehe, Operas my favorite browser but this is a bit of a low blow imo.
It's Microsofts software not Operas, they can use their own stuff by default if they want, I agree MS should start conforming to open-web standards, but the other part is just stupid.

The EU is a one-trick-pony against success >_>.


By kelmon on 12/14/2007 5:08:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The EU is a one-trick-pony against success


I'd agree with you if Microsoft wasn't guilty of using its desktop monopoly position to lock the Web to IE. You can make Opera the greatest browser ever but if pages are still broken when rendered because they were written for IE then that's a problem. If IE implemented the standards then all pages would need to be written for standards and we'd all be happy.

In case this is not clear in my (many, sorry) comments on the subject, I am not anti-Microsoft in the context of bundling IE with Windows. It is their product and they have every right to ship it how they like. My problem is solely that IE does not implement the web standards - change that and Opera would have no case that I would support.


By thornburg on 12/13/2007 3:31:30 PM , Rating: 4
I don't agree with litigation as a business model, but Opera isn't going there because they can't innovate. Many of the good things that are in the 3 major web browsers (IE, FF, Safari) today were in Opera first, and nearly every worthwhile feature that IE has ever had was in Opera before it was in IE (even if Opera wasn't the first to have it).

To this day I think gesture control of a browser was a brilliant innovation, and that came from Opera first. I don't know if they invented tabbed browsing or not, but they had it before IE or FF. There are many other examples.


By cyriene on 12/14/2007 9:50:46 AM , Rating: 2
uh...I have been using Opera for a couple of years now and it is more innovative than IE as far as I am concerned. I much prefer Opera to FF as well.

I don't know if the lawsuit is right, but I don't feel myself switching from Opera to any other web broswer anytime soon.


default IE is GOOD
By mgambrell on 12/13/2007 3:15:55 PM , Rating: 1
Forget who has the rights to do what. It is GOOD for IE to be installed by default in windows, as it lets a million existing apps that depend on it continue to function as well as permit a million more apps in the future get developed and deployed much more simply by being able to continue relying on the presence of a web browser.

IE is so featureless.. it is practically HTML notepad. Nobody chews out MS for including notepad.




RE: default IE is GOOD
By BMFPitt on 12/13/2007 3:29:34 PM , Rating: 3
I demand that Microsoft remove Notepad! It's preventing other companies from releasing tiny, simple, ubiquitous text editors and charging $50 for them!

(Actually, Notepad++ is an awesome tool, in case anyone here hasn't tried it yet.)


RE: default IE is GOOD
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 5:24:08 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, dear god - have you completely lost your mind? IE is ONLY available for Windows (WINE, excepting) so are you honestly saying that a monopoly OS and monopoly browser is GOOD? If Microsoft made IE available for all platforms then it's less of a problem but condoning the current situation and even encouraging it gives Microsoft the right to dictate how you use a computer since you won't be able to switch to any other platform. I'm sorry but the status quo has to change must change to one where a web app developed works the same in all browsers because they all use the same standards.

And, no, no one chews Microsoft out over the inclusion of Notepad because there's more applications that can read/edit text files than you can shake a stick at for every platform.


RE: default IE is GOOD
By tomal on 12/14/2007 8:02:11 AM , Rating: 2
yeah i agree with u .....

but i think Firefox 3.0 will somewhat shift websites to adopt open web standards due to its higher popularity ...... in the process, this will benefit opera too .....


RE: default IE is GOOD
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 9:44:41 AM , Rating: 2
On the World Wide Web in general, that's possible and the situation is certainly much better now than it was before. Unfortunately this is not because IE has become standards-compliant but rather because web developers have recognised that they need to support other browsers and they have been prepared to do double-work. This is clearly very inefficient and a waste of everyones time.

My main issue is with corporate applications - I honestly can't see Firefox 3 making any impact there because businesses aren't interested. Regardless, the only thing that is really going to make a difference to this stupid situation is if IE conforms to the standards and abandons its legacy methods of laying out content.

Write Once, Run Anywhere is what we need to be aiming for, not the current Write Twice, Run Anywhere situation.


Apple
By Spivonious on 12/13/2007 3:49:11 PM , Rating: 4
Shouldn't they be suing Apple for forcing Safari on all of the Mac users?




RE: Apple
By AntiV6 on 12/13/2007 4:05:40 PM , Rating: 2
MS is the Evil Empire of the corporate world. If anything small thing happens to them, it is blown out of proportion.

Apple on the other hand doesn't have a OS monopoly, so they can do whatever the heck they want.


RE: Apple
By Oregonian2 on 12/13/2007 9:21:49 PM , Rating: 2
Or at least let the iPod Touch use Firefox (etc). There you REALLY are tied down to Safari!


RE: Apple
By kelmon on 12/14/2007 5:14:43 AM , Rating: 2
No, because you can replace Safari without penalty - any web page that is created for Safari should work fine in Firefox and Opera. It will, however, look like crap in IE because IE renders pages differently, and that's the problem.

Technically Apple is already being sued over the 3rd party applications issue. When that problem has been resolved and Firefox makes a mobile browser then Apple could indeed be sued if they prevented the user from installing it on the iPhone or iPod Touch. However, we'll have to wait and see if that will happen since there's not much competition in the mobile browser business at the moment, with the exception of Mobile Opera. It will be interesting to see if they make a version of that browser for Apple's products when they are opened up...


Windows N
By BMFPitt on 12/13/2007 3:24:07 PM , Rating: 2
They should just do a quick and dirty reimplementation of the Windows 3.1 File Manager, and release a new version of Windows N that nobody will ever buy. Should be cheaper than getting the lawyers involved.




RE: Windows N
By cmdrdredd on 12/13/2007 4:14:27 PM , Rating: 2
Or MS could put every browser in existance there and there will be millions of people complaining that there are too many. It's far easier to just install one, keep one updated through windows updates, and provide support for one. People can use what they want, but if they want integration of multiple browsers they have to provide support for them all. Who's gonna pay for that? Opera will ultimately end up having to pay MS for that to ever happen. I'm sorry but this will probably go nowhere because this was already settled with Nutscrape long long ago. Hell, Opera is the worst browser I've ever used.


RE: Windows N
By BMFPitt on 12/13/2007 4:30:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm sorry but this will probably go nowhere because this was already settled with Nutscrape long long ago.
Don't hate on Netscape... It was an incredible browser until AOL bought the company and ran it into the ground, then continued to run it halfway to the core of the Earth.


RE: Windows N
By 306maxi on 12/13/2007 4:44:53 PM , Rating: 2
Excellent! Then we will have even more idiots going on about how Windows gets more bloated with each release. I was so disappointed when I couldn't install Vista on my 386 that only has a 70mb hdd. You've lost a good customer here Microsoft!!!!!


Blah Blah ... haters.
By smokedturkey on 12/13/2007 5:12:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If I want Opera I will download it but last I recall it was buggy and they wanted to charge me for it. No Thanks.


FYI, Opera has never been "buggy", at least not to any significant extent. Also, Opera has been FREE for a very long time.

quote:
If you can't innovate...litigate.


FYI, Opera has blazed the trail in browser innovation over the past several years. Who started using tabbed browsing first?
Firefox is OK, a great browser but Opera was here first. Haven't used it in a while, it's basically Netscape reborn.
Not knocking Firefox, it's much better/faster than IE.

quote:
Hell, Opera is the worst browser I've ever used.


You sir are just a baboon. No wonder you didn't like it. It's been proven that baboons are just plain stupid.

quote:
They (MS) should just do a quick and dirty reimplementation of the Windows 3.1 File Manager


heck yeah! You know how much sense that statement just made? File manager was kicka$$. I now use PowerDesk 6, File Manager 3.1 on STEROIDS!

I have been using Opera since about version 3, I have ALWAYS hated IE. Some things are just meant to be, and Opera has NEVER let me down. One of the top TWO best browsers EVER!
Opera continues to innovate, and of course... it is FREE!




RE: Blah Blah ... haters.
By Oregonian2 on 12/13/2007 9:28:05 PM , Rating: 2
I quite agree, I've tried Opera and it usually has been very good and very innovative, but never could like it enough to stay with it. Always migrated back to the Netscape/Firefox line of browsers. Not sure why.


RE: Blah Blah ... haters.
By TomZ on 12/13/2007 9:53:42 PM , Rating: 2
I used Opera for a while, and while I did like its GUI, there were a significant number of web sites that didn't render correctly. Maybe 1 in 20 or so? These same sites render correctly in IE and FF. I figure the reason is that because of Opera's low marketshare, most web developers don't bother doing any compatibility beyond IE and FF.


RE: Blah Blah ... haters.
By tomal on 12/14/2007 8:03:48 AM , Rating: 2
yeah Opera has been the most innovative of all the browser.

They only need open web standards ...... then they have the ability to knock out firefox as well ......

But i think opera is the future market leader ..... the future lies within mobile gadgets ..... n opera browser is already dominant there .......


By BigToque on 12/13/2007 3:18:58 PM , Rating: 3
Microsoft should be able to include anything it wants in Windows.

How the hell can the EU or anyone else for that matter force Microsoft to take things out of Windows?

Windows is their product and they should be able to do whatever they want to it.

If Opera doesn't like it, they should develop their own OS and install Opera on it.




By anotherdude on 12/13/2007 3:31:05 PM , Rating: 2
This is getting ridiculous. Web browsing is part and parcel of personal computing. If anyone wants Firefox or Opera its a few clicks away on the perfectly functional browser MS has generously provided!


By Oregonian2 on 12/13/2007 9:24:24 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, IE is Microsoft's name for the Firefox boot loader. :-)


By Imaginer on 12/13/2007 5:00:19 PM , Rating: 2
So I do not see why it should be even an issue. There are plenty of features and the ease of use in Opera are key points for me to effectively be my dominant browser. I only move to IE when Opera comes upon a website that it can't effectively display or function correctly.

I mean look how Firefox lit the forest fire on the net. Slowly it gained momentum and now most to everyone uses it. Granted, I too was one but then I saw the light of Opera. (that and when they announced it was free to use, it made me experiment)

The only and I mean ONLY reason why IE has a huge presence is the corporate and business machines that have them on each person's workstation and the mentality that all of the necessary websites that companies use work with IE. And usually IT admins just leave IE as the browser to use and it is up to them whether or not to green light FF or Opera.




By Imaginer on 12/13/2007 5:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
Because from what I read, the company behind Opera wants Microsoft to show all alternatives on their operating system from what I read...


By Imaginer on 12/13/2007 5:04:31 PM , Rating: 2
Oops, that parent post above this child one should be a separate post and the title for it should be

"What next? Advertise OSX on Windows Vista's boot screen?"


MS and EU
By sagge on 12/13/2007 6:00:58 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft must obey with the laws of the countries where they sell their products. USA has laws, and Miscrosoft must obey them. Same way, EU has laws, and Microsoft must obey them. If they don't like the European laws, nobody forces them to sell their products there.

Because Microsoft has shown little or no respect for the laws in the past, they must pay the fines. If they don't like it, obey the laws. And if they don't want to obey the laws in EU, they don't have to... They are totally free to stop selling their idiotic OS there. But for some reason they continue to sell the crap, sometimes even illegal crap, and then cry about beeing sued for breaking the rules.




RE: MS and EU
By HimuraX03 on 12/13/2007 9:24:31 PM , Rating: 2
To some degree I agree with you. Sometimes laws are silly but we still must live by them. Kinda like my last ticket...office it's a 4 lane road, why is the speed limit only 55MPH.

Chipper office's response: "Sir..we have laws for a reason, if you don't want to live by the laws on the road...don't drive."

While it sounds harsh to Microsoft, they should pull out of the EU with their product. We'll see how long our neighbors over the pond will survive on the N flavors of Linux and the oh so cool Mac OS.


RE: MS and EU
By Oregonian2 on 12/13/2007 9:31:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
While it sounds harsh to Microsoft, they should pull out of the EU with their product. We'll see how long our neighbors over the pond will survive on the N flavors of Linux and the oh so cool Mac OS.


I suspect the EU will declare that to be illegal as well.


they're filing with the EU?
By Fenixgoon on 12/13/2007 3:09:54 PM , Rating: 3
microsoft is gonna get screwed.

seriously though - if MS doesn't package IE with an OS, then they'll get chewed out for selling an "incomplete product". if they do, they get sued (here).

same thing with Vista UAC - it tries to prevent retards from running that email trojan they downloaded in an attempt to make vista more secure. Yet they'd get blasted for not having a "secure enough system" if it's not included. and let's not forget the symantec kernel debacle.

As giant as MS is, I feel bad that they're put through stupid crap like this.




RE: they're filing with the EU?
By Moishe on 12/13/2007 3:57:28 PM , Rating: 2
One thing is for sure... giant != evil

But giant does get you the most attention from greedy folks.

Microsoft just needs to automagically assign all of their profits to the EU... but wait, I doubt that would prevent the lawsuits.


Include Linux on Windows!
By anotherdude on 12/13/2007 3:35:36 PM , Rating: 3
The nerve of Microsoft to sell Windows!I demand that every version of Windows start up in an OS neutral mode which allows you to choose any OS that any software revolutionary thinks you have!




RE: Include Linux on Windows!
By Oregonian2 on 12/13/2007 9:23:02 PM , Rating: 2
Love it! Wish I hadn't posted so I could bump up your count!


New Europe
By pauldovi on 12/13/2007 3:25:52 PM , Rating: 2
"The New Europe, reminding you why your ancestors why they left the Old Europe."

Doesn't the user make their choice when they choose Windows as their OS?




RE: New Europe
By pauldovi on 12/13/2007 3:27:16 PM , Rating: 2
Typo on my quote!

"The New Europe, reminding you why your ancestors left the Old Europe."

Opps.


four score and 500 billion ago
By kalimystic on 12/13/2007 5:20:17 PM , Rating: 2
The basis that Microsoft has used you all as willing idiots to test out the sub-par operating system for the last 15 years should be ample reason to support Opera. However, I can see by nearly everyones previous opinion, that only a few actually touched on the point that Microsuck continues not to adhere to the RFC from the w3c. ( and you wonder why you have so much crap on that POS O/S and have to reformat nearly once a year.) Thank gawd -- there is linux and bsd - so we don't have to listen to such medicore minds continously. GO get 'em Opera stick it in the gizzard and Twist!!




By anotherdude on 12/14/2007 9:54:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The basis that Microsoft has used you all as willing idiots to test out the sub-par operating system for the last 15 years should be ample reason to support Opera. However, I can see by nearly everyones previous opinion, that only a few actually touched on the point that Microsuck continues not to adhere to the RFC from the w3c. ( and you wonder why you have so much crap on that POS O/S and have to reformat nearly once a year.) Thank gawd -- there is linux and bsd - so we don't have to listen to such medicore minds continously. GO get 'em Opera stick it in the gizzard and Twist!!


Thank you for that unfiltered look at the thoughts of the mindless Linux joyboy and MS hater. This explains a lot actually.


Frivolous
By Kougar on 12/13/2007 9:47:34 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
"We are filing this complaint on behalf of all consumers who are tired of having a monopolist make choices for them,"


But what about those that are more than tired of such frivolous lawsuits? Do they honestly expect Microsoft to offer a Windows Vista NE edition, for "No Explorer"?

Maybe the Air Conditioner manufacturers should sue the auto industry for including AC's in all their vehicles.




Bundled vs Integrated and Standards
By Iger on 12/14/2007 4:00:21 AM , Rating: 2
I've been using Opera since version 6 and love it very much.

Their demand to remove IE from windows sounds strange, but I believe it is indeed a reference to the fact, that IE is _integrated_ into Windows (as was mentioned above). You can't remove it, because Windows' functionality depends on it. A direct effect of this, for example, is that you _must_ install IE updates even if you don't use it - which imo is wrong. So, ideally (imo again), IE would be _bundled_ with Windows (nothing wrong with IE 7.0 actually... it's worse than Opera, but has its uses - and it works for everyone who doesn't want to choose), but not _integrate_ it.

Still, as far as I understand, this is a bit secondary to the second part of Opera's demand. Usually web developers agree that main problem of IE's existence is the fact it does no adhere to standards. The arguement flow is following:
IE has big marketshare -> Everyone must develop web sites compatible to IE -> Other browsers adhering to the standards are considered buggy by consumers, because they don't display non-standard IE-compliant sites -> People prefer IE and give it even more marketshare -> Innovation in browser market stales.

Well... There are 2 ways how you can come to using Opera. 1 is if all the browsers are "equal" (standard-conforming) and you actually go and download Opera because it's better (in your opinion) - this is where the second of their demands points or if you don't have any browser at all and have to research for the options - this is where the first (more contradictory and less useful, imo) of their demands points...

Overall there is some logic in their lawsuit, and if the second part would be actually successful - it would be a win for everyone.




Suing over the wrong thing...
By erikstarcher on 12/14/2007 1:56:23 PM , Rating: 2
If anything they should be suing over the nonstandard way IE works, not because it is included for free. I use IE because it does everything I want and it just works. I know other browser have different features, but I don't need them. I have not had an issue with IE since pop-up blockers were invented. I don't get spyware and the like because I practice safe computing. The last thing I want is to buy a copy of Windows and not be able to view every web page out there. XP wont be sold much longer so they arn't going to make a change there. In Vista, you don't have to use IE. If you don't want to use Vista, you don't have to. Use Linux, BSD, and whatever browser you want to. If you need to use IE for some office reasons, then force the software writers to make their software compatible with the compatition. If you want IE to adhere to standards, then sue for that, but don't force Microsoft to replace thier product with a competing one. The last thing I want is to install Windows, boot it up and have it ask me if I want to run Linux instead. Then ask me which browser I want. Then which search provider I want (google by the way, but that is easy to change, and I do). I bought a Micrsoft product, and I expect all default programs included to be Microsoft's also. Just like OSX. If you don't like Apples default programs, install different ones. If I don't like their version, then I will install one I do like. If a customer doesn't know how to, or even care to change it, then at least they still have a useable program. It might not be the best (a mater of opinion) but it will be functional.

This is not an issue with giving away something for free, this is an issue with compatibility. So sue for compatibily, not inclusion. I want it included, along with Media Player. I use them and I like them.




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