Print 51 comment(s) - last by sxr7171.. on Nov 29 at 7:55 PM

Microsoft talks about reducing its costs, not ours

With the Xbox 360 having been on the market for over a year now, the rumors of an impending price cut have been constantly batted around. Microsoft even stated back in 2005 before the console first launched to expect yearly price cuts on the Xbox 360.

As certain factors started playing out in Microsoft's favor including the delay of the PlayStation 3 from spring 2006 to fall 2006 ( March 2007 for Europe) and the higher price tags of $499 and $599 respectively for the 20GB and 60GB PS3s, Microsoft backed off on talks of price cuts. When asked about an Xbox 360 price cut in early October, Peter Moore simply said "certainly not." A Microsoft spokesman followed up later in October by stating that there are "no plans to adjust the price of the Xbox 360 this year."

In a recent interview with A+E Interactive, Microsoft’s Robbie Bach is asked about the inevitable release of the next generation “Xbox 720.” Bach’s response was that the engineers are always working on the future products, but that cost reducing the Xbox 360 “seems to be the first order of business.” Lower overall component costs will likely come into play as the hardware used in the Xbox 360 ages along with a planned die shrink from 90nm currently used on the Xenon processor to a 65nm SOI process in 2007.

But while Microsoft is looking to reduce costs to improve the profitability of its Entertainment and Devices Division, it’s still unclear as to when customers will actually see any dramatic price cuts directly from Microsoft. Some vendors are taking matters into their own hands by offering special promotions or rebates with Xbox 360 systems, but Microsoft will likely let the PS3 dance around in the ring for a few rounds before it starts unloading with price cuts.

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Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By miahallen on 11/28/2006 4:28:53 AM , Rating: 2
I'd like to see the current "Premium" start selling at $300, as the new "Core". And a new "Premium" with a 60GB (or larger) hard drive, and possibly HDMI output. I'd definitely pay $400 for that!

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By brystmar on 11/28/2006 4:58:55 AM , Rating: 3
the 360 hardware only became a profitable sale for MS last month, so if you think they're gonna drop the price now just because it's been out for a year then you simply don't understand how businesses work. don't get me wrong -- i'm no MS or xbox fanboy. and although a price cut would probably be enough to get me to buy a 360, i just don't see this happening anytime soon.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By psychobriggsy on 11/28/2006 8:42:51 AM , Rating: 2
Ah yes, the dodgy analysis that somehow concluded that Microsoft's costs for the 360 had dropped by $200 in a year, despite the fact that they have yet to benefit from any process shrink. Sure yields will be higher, and memory will be cheaper, but it is highly unlikely that it will accumulate to a $200 saving in the bill of materials.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By borowki on 11/28/2006 10:39:44 AM , Rating: 2
It's called supply-and-demand, duh. Shortly prior to launch, Microsoft wasn't in a position to negotiate with suppliers. Other manufacturers were building up their inventory for Christmas, so suppliers weren't exactly. Now that launch is over and Microsoft has an inventory built up, it can shop around more.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By Oregonian2 on 11/28/2006 2:02:29 PM , Rating: 2
It's called supply-and-demand, duh. Shortly prior to launch, Microsoft wasn't in a position to negotiate with suppliers.

Not a chance. Suppliers would have traded their wives and mothers for a chance to be designed into their gaming machine -- and pricing would be key to being designed in.

Unless you thought they'd only sell a couple hundred of them. But if so, you'd not be designed in, so it doesn't matter.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By borowki on 11/28/2006 5:12:57 PM , Rating: 1
The components in the Xbox 360 are largely commoditized. DVD drive? You can buy it from anyone. Ditto for laptop hard-drive, RAM, and power brick. Microsoft owns the designs to the CPU and GPU, so they can fab them at any number of foundries. There is no getting one's component "designed in."

Microsoft has learned their lesson after being squeezed by Intel and Nvidia in the original Xbox.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By Oregonian2 on 11/28/2006 7:18:52 PM , Rating: 3
Speaking as a circuit designer and system architect of over thirty years experience, I stand by my previous comments. However I'll add the phrase "spec'd in" to my "designed in" in order to be more explicit.

Suppliers would do anything they can to get their foot in the door up front because of future expected volume. Microsoft won't use the cheapest DVD drive du jour with twenty brands of DVD drives among the Xbox'es. They'd likely have very very few, but probably at least two. They'd be heavily tested and qualified with pricing, quality (including return/repair language defined) and volume availability arraigned up front, chosen between all the possible suppliers. It's not the same as buying one unit. They need volume, they need it delivered on schedule, they need them all to work to spec and do so for some time longer than Microsoft's guarantee(if not longer :-). Any power brick would have been custom designed and
heavily tested as well as priced to trim off any cents they can within other constraints.

Also note that they don't buy (and get priced) from order to order,
even among much lower volume electronic manufacturing, pricing is often set on a volume-per-year basis, not on a per-order basis, and so Microsoft's first year of production would be huge. But because of that hugeness, they can do better than that normal operating practice sort of purchasing methods (like getting binding quotes ahead of even picking technologies to use -- heck even I do that in my much lower volume designs)

By borowki on 11/29/2006 2:36:43 AM , Rating: 1
Samsung and Hitachi are supplying drives for the 360 IIRC. These are just standard SATA with some modification. Nothing would stop Microsoft from switching to another supplier, as they have done in the past with the original Xbox. The company has plenty of experience working with heterogeneous hardware. To throw that out the window to lock themselves to specific suppliers would be stupid. Any supplier counting on that would be too.

You speak as through manufacturers have unlimited spare capacity that they desperate to utilize. Volume purchase only gives the buyer bargaining power if there's ample supply. If there isn't, then it actually drives up prices. It's basic economics.

Microsoft's procurement process definitely does not work as you described. It's documented in their own case studies. No one can run a supply-chain in such a fashion and hope to stay in business in a competitive environment. Setting a price on a yearly basis is stupid on a product whose price depreciate over time. You either overpay or risk supply-chain interruption because a supplier isn't willing to sell at a loss--as had happened with Nvidia. Microsoft uses an online procurement system with the 360, where multiple suppliers have to bid for an order. That helps the company get the best possible deal that a supplier is willing to accept and capable of fulfilling.

By Orpheus333 on 11/28/2006 12:11:07 PM , Rating: 2
I think Microsoft is about $70 in the black for each 360...

I'm pretty sure that was in the DT article about how much sony is losing on each PS3 sold.

By ViperROhb34 on 11/28/2006 7:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
I agree.. and this is no different then people 'hopefully' speculating the PS3's price will drop anytime soon.. Once the cost of the consoles production goes down.. they wait awhile and make some money back before lowering the price.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By otispunkmeyer on 11/28/2006 5:03:07 AM , Rating: 2
yeah they really do need something to replace the 20gig hard drive with. with their new downloadable movies n tv shows the 20gigger just isnt big enough.

plus most new HDTV's have HDMI now, and certainly with HDTV not being that widespread in the UK there are going to be much less numbers of TV's without HDMI as its only just begining to pick up pace now and every tv i've seen for sale has at least on HDMI input. so HDMI is a must IMO

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By Marlowe on 11/28/06, Rating: 0
RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By XtremeM3 on 11/28/2006 6:11:26 AM , Rating: 2
Really? Got a link? I need one. What? No link? Ok.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By KristopherKubicki on 11/28/2006 6:20:03 AM , Rating: 2
You used to be able to buy them from Lik-Sang before they shut down. Never met anyone who bought one though.

By XtremeM3 on 11/28/2006 6:30:45 AM , Rating: 2
I've never seen them available, just "coming soon". I've been wanting one for quite a while now, never saw them in an available for purchase status.

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By chedrz on 11/28/2006 1:01:57 PM , Rating: 2
I actually saw a 360 HDMI cable at Wal-Mart yesterday. Unfortunately, they run upwards of $50 there. I couldn't find a link on their website, though.

By GaryJohnson on 11/28/2006 3:59:34 PM , Rating: 2
A few google/froogle searches for '"xbox 360" HDMI' leads to some cables by Pelican Accessories that use the term 'HDMI' in their ads, but from images of the cables, it is clear they are actually XBox 360->Component Video cables, not HDMI.

There do seem to be a few makers (including Pelican) of XBox 360->VGA cables. I wonder, would one of those such cables work well with a device like this:

RE: Hopefully they'll be more creative...
By XtremeM3 on 11/29/2006 5:52:25 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps a VGA cable, but I highly doubt HDMI.

I'll buy you one too if you can pick one up for me.



By sxr7171 on 11/29/2006 7:55:22 PM , Rating: 2
Taking a component/VGA signal and converting that to HDMI is pure retardedness. Might as well take RF and convert to HDMI.

By rdh on 11/28/2006 10:23:30 AM , Rating: 2
No need to "imagine" a $300 Xbox 360. The 360 premium has been selling for $300 (AR) from several sellers for the last 2 weeks. I bought one for my son for $200 after all promotions. So though the "official" price might still be $400, its a soft price.

Microsoft is ready to drop prices when they have to, but only when they have to.

By ATC on 11/28/2006 6:12:47 PM , Rating: 2
They can keep their Core and Premium packages as they are, after all the PS3 won't be biting into their sales just yet.

What I would love to see soon is the die shrink and a package that has the console with a built-in HD-DVD drive. One, this would achieve, in theory, a lower internal heat dissipation so less cooling required (from the shrink). But more importantly for me is the built-in HD-DVD drive would spin slower than the current drives which are ridiculously loud, so it would be a lot quieter.

Of course, the fact that the HD-DVD is built right in would be nice from an aesthetics point of view too, keeping the whole package elegant (as the PS3 is).

By sxr7171 on 11/29/2006 7:52:10 PM , Rating: 2
I won't buy a 360 until both HDMI and 60-80GB HD show up. I don't mind paying $399 for it once they've added that.

M$-the $ pour in......
By crystal clear on 11/28/2006 6:43:11 AM , Rating: 2
"But while Microsoft is looking to reduce costs to improve the profitability of its Games division"


*MS sold MORE than 1 million copies of "GEARS OF WAR" making it the fastest selling game for Xbox 360 of all times.

* Xbox live gold subscription has increased by over than 50% in the USA.Game went on sale on 7th NOV this year.

* In the UK it has topped the charts at no 1. followed by
HALO 2( another huge seller).

* The same applies to Japan.

* Blue Dragon expected release Dec 7 this year-already sold out in Japan (pre orders) another expected money maker.

*Forza Motorsport 2 is to be released in 2007 another expected bestseller

*In short in all major markets-USA/Canada/UK/Japan-Xbox games are huge sellers-translate that to $$$$$$$$$$$

*Add to the above Pre christmas sales all over.

What profitability? the money is pouring in at a consistantly high rate-and yes YET MORE TO COME in more games,more sales,more sales record broken.

Profit margins are good & M$ cannot be more happy.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By Brandon Hill on 11/28/2006 7:45:36 AM , Rating: 2
"Next-gen console breaks 6 million-unit barrier--but Entertainment and Devices division still takes $96 million Q1 hit."

Posted Oct 26, 2006 2:19 pm PT

The whole division includes game and hardware sales.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By crystal clear on 11/28/06, Rating: -1
RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By ramj70 on 11/28/2006 9:01:50 AM , Rating: 2
You really don't need to check with your "sources" on Wall Street, just look at Microsofts financial statements on their website and lookat at their SEC quarterly report form 10-Q and annual report 10-K and you will see their entertainment division is still operating at a loss. They are indeed making more money in the entertainment division but they are still not profitable in that areat yet. But I'm sure they soon will be.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By Master Kenobi on 11/28/2006 10:24:57 AM , Rating: 1
That doesn't mean they aren't making a profit. It simply means the huge hole they dug to launch is slowly being filled in. They are profitable right now, however they still have outstanding debt to pay off from the original costs to design, build, market, and release. Thats why it reports at being a loss. Which might be what you were trying to say, but the wording was a bit off. Dunno.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By TomZ on 11/28/2006 10:53:29 AM , Rating: 4
Huh? A loss means that you spent more in the quarter than you took in (cash flow). That is different and separate from having debt from previous quarters (assets/liabilities). Obviously if you have debt it can affect cash flow if you need to make payments and pay interest, but I am sure in Microsoft's case, their investment was self-finaced from cash.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By ramj70 on 11/28/2006 11:10:19 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe this article can describe it a little better, don't want to split hairs :)

With 5 million Xbox 360 sold worldwide, Home and Entertainment's operating loss also gained momentum and hit an apex of $414 million for the last quarter of the FY06. This was accompanied by a revenue growth of no less than 129%, or $503 million dollars. "Home and Entertainment operating loss increased primarily as a result of a $682 million increase in cost of revenue primarily associated with the Xbox 360, partially offset by the revenue growth," stated Microsoft representatives.

A global analysis of the Home and Entertainment Division market performance in FY06 reveals an increase in operating loss by 160%, totaling at $1.26 billion. "Home and Entertainment operating loss increased primarily as a result of a $1.64 billion increase in cost of revenue primarily as a result of the number of Xbox 360 consoles sold and higher Xbox 360 unit costs, partially offset by the revenue growth," said Microsoft. "Our fiscal year 2006 operating loss increase was also attributable to the significant impact of Halo 2 in fiscal year 2005. Our business model anticipates that while we currently sell Xbox 360 consoles at a negative margin, product cost reductions and the future margins on sales of games and other products will enable us to achieve a positive margin over the Xbox 360 console lifecycle.”

If Microsoft will continue to navigate the current financial trajectory with its Xbox 360 console, losses are bound to triple, as CFO Chris Liddell revealed the Redmond Company's plans to sell 15 million consoles by the end of fiscal year 2007. Sony is also expected to report an $870.6 million loss on its PlayStation 3.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By sdsdv10 on 11/28/2006 1:00:16 PM , Rating: 2
Nice article ramj70. Do you have a link to the original?

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By ViperROhb34 on 11/28/2006 7:45:49 PM , Rating: 2
Yes and if you go to Forbes and look at the Forbes LIST of Top "Net" Grossing Companies in the World .. MS being number 3 or 4 after banks.. netting something like 1 billion a month.. SO After paying bills, all debts, payrolls, supply cost, you name it - they still have a billion left each month ! .. I don't think MS is too worried if they break even right now on 360.. Sony on the other hand relies HEAVILY on the gaming devision which since PS2 has been one of their sole best incomes.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By Oregonian2 on 11/28/2006 2:09:01 PM , Rating: 2
Call things what you will, but you're not profitable until you turn a profit. Which they haven't.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By crystal clear on 11/29/2006 4:09:25 AM , Rating: 2
I prefer to do it MY WAY.It suits me-Thats my style.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By crystal clear on 11/29/2006 4:48:29 AM , Rating: 2
The above comment comes in reponse to-

You really don't need to check with your "sources" on Wall Street

You apparently have a lot to learn about realities of business & how to operate.

RE: M$-the $ pour in......
By ViperROhb34 on 11/28/2006 7:45:25 PM , Rating: 2
Yes and if you go to Forbes and look at the Forbes LIST of Top "Net" Grossing Companies in the World .. MS being number 3 or 4 after banks.. netting something like 1 billion a month.. SO After paying bills, all debts, payrolls, supply cost, you name it - they still have a billion left each month ! .. I don't think MS is too worried if they break even right now on 360.. Sony on the other hand relies HEAVILY on the gaming devision which since PS2 has been one of their sole best incomes.

360 NEEDS..
By Combatcolin on 11/28/2006 6:20:35 AM , Rating: 1
Bigger HD as standard.
Option of usable Ext USB 2 HD
HD-DVD as standard
HDMI enabled cable.

Price cut.

Im in then!

RE: 360 NEEDS..
By XtremeM3 on 11/28/2006 6:49:14 AM , Rating: 3
All of that and getting the price cut too is asking a little much huh? :)

Not that those aren't all things I think would be great in the 360, but all but the Ext USB drive usage cost $. Hard to cut prices when adding more.

Although MS could afford to drop the price to continue taking a loss on the 360, or just minimize profits, and they could do it just to F!@# with Sony. But imagine the price difference between a $300 Premium 360 vs a $600 PS3. 2x the price is a pretty big deal. Yeah yeah, i know how much more the PS3 comes with, but I'm talking about - "Hmmm a game console for 300 bucks or a game console for 600 bucks." Imagine MS selling a $500 xbox with a 100GB HDD, HD-DVD player built in, and an HDMI cable. I think they could do that and still make money on the beast.

I just wonder how many parents are now telling their kids that want a PS3 for Christmas, "What about that XBox 360 you wanted...I'll get you that instead." Just to save a couple hundred bucks. Imagine that if it was 1/2 the price.

Just my .02


REmodled premium
By BioRebel on 11/28/2006 9:30:49 AM , Rating: 2
I hope they rework the current premium, and perhaps add a larger HD and make the HD-DVD player, internal sometime soon. Im sure it wouldnt be hard to match the PS3's HD size with a cheaper price.

RE: REmodled premium
By ajfink on 11/28/2006 11:32:12 AM , Rating: 2
I'd say by late Q2 or early Q3 '07 we'll see a new model of 360, one that includes a larger hard drive, a built-in HD-DVD player, and HDMI support should be available for every system via a new cable. This would coincide with the shrink to 65nm for its CPU production. The GPU might also make a less noticeable process shrink.

But Microsoft will not lower prices until after this holiday season, because its only really competition is the Wii, and even then, the Wii often doesn't directly compete with the Xbox 360. The PS3 is sold out every and will remain sold out, while Xbox 360s and increasingly good games for it and the system and games are readily available for a lower price than the PS3.

Next Christmas will be the bloody shootout, not this one. That being said, sales potential will be lower for everyone, since the market will already be a bit saturated with their products.

65nm shrink
By Warder45 on 11/28/2006 11:49:20 AM , Rating: 3
I want to know more about the die shrink. Hopefully this will help with some of the heat the system puts out.

Not for a while.
By kuyaglen on 11/28/2006 11:38:27 AM , Rating: 2
I would venture a guess of an XBox 360 with a 60gig hdd for $360 come next shopping season. Maybe a special Halo 3 Edition X360 somewhere also. They may even have a model stay at the premium price level but also include hd-dvd capability.

Forget it
By encryptkeeper on 11/28/2006 12:22:18 PM , Rating: 2
Don't even bother thinking of a lower priced Xbox right now, or any time soon. If they have been selling them at a loss for the last year, they'll lower their cost, recoup some of the lost money, then they'll consider lowering the price. MAYBE. With the PS3 their main competition, they already beat them by 100 to 200 dollars depending on the model.

By bombledmonk on 11/28/2006 12:22:20 PM , Rating: 2
I'm almost tempted to say that we'll see a Wii price cut before we see an Xbox360 with a lower price.

By tarv on 11/29/2006 12:51:17 PM , Rating: 2
Playstation is having major production difficulties at the moment. So there is still pent up demand because of the limited supply. Once sony gets up to volume production sometime next year Microsoft could go for the kill shot and lower prices. Sony is really going to have a tough time competing with the 360 this round because the PS3 and 360 are basically equal and the 360 is much cheaper and easier to develop for. Sony will never be able to match any price cuts if Microsoft gets really aggressive. Nintendo is going to do well regardless of what Microsoft does so I really see the Playstation 3 losing ground in this console generation.

There are rebate deals already
By borowki on 11/28/2006 11:03:46 AM , Rating: 1
Just the other day I saw a flier advertising a $40 rebate for the Premium package. The store is also throwing in an extra controller. I think what Microsoft's plan for this holiday season is to give retailers more leeways to cut prices on their own. It's a smart thing to do. Retailers are happy since that brings people to their store. And consumers who bought the console at full-price are less unhappy.

An official price-cut probably won't happen until early next year. My speculation is that Microsoft will cut the price of the Premium package, add a hard drive to the Core, and launch an "Ultra" edition with a larger hard drive and Wi-Fi.

Bach -we dont buy your story
By crystal clear on 11/28/06, Rating: -1
RE: Bach -we dont buy your story
By masteraleph on 11/28/2006 8:10:02 AM , Rating: 2
Originally iSuppli had estimated that Microsoft was losing around $125 per console on the launch of the 360. Now they are claiming Microsoft is actually making profit on each console sold, to the tune of over $75. This is in line with Microsoft's claims and sources in Taiwan, previous to Bach's interview with the Mercury news, that the 360's costs had been driven down to a significantly lower level.

Minor issue with the report you're mentioning- it compares losses and gains against the retail price of the console, but MS does not, in fact, get the retail price of the console from any of its resellers. Presuming that their wholesale price is more in line with, say, $350/premium console, then they're making $25 on the premium and probably still losing money on the Core.

Now, since they've sold 7.5 million consoles (and therefore are clearly popular) and since Nintendo is selling Wiis for $50 less than the Core despite clearly inferior hardware (and they're making a profit on all the Wiis), tell me again why MS should cut prices?

RE: Bach -we dont buy your story
By TomZ on 11/28/2006 8:24:02 AM , Rating: 5
1. All this talk of manufacturing cost totally ignores a significant cost component - which is the development costs that Microsoft has invested (tens or hundreds of millions of dollars). Plus engineering work is of course ongoing. So, considering this cost amortized across the number of units so far produced, the actual losses are much more than we can tell through BOM analysis of teardowns .

2. Sell price and manufacturing cost are only indirectly related. The sell price of an item is set based on the value to the customer - it is not based on the manufacturing cost. Therefore, there is no reason that Microsoft "has to" pass along cost reductions simply because they are able to achieve cost reductions in manufacturing. Instead, price reductions to the consumer would be the natural result of the product being less valuable for whatever reason (e.g., competition). Consumers do not look at a product and judge its value based on the sum total cost of its components.

RE: Bach -we dont buy your story
By Drexial on 11/28/2006 2:59:00 PM , Rating: 2
cost of the console to a retailer is $15 less then the MSRP. the reason they didnt drop the price of the console like previously planned is because the PS3 became less of a competitor then previously planned. the 360 is on edge of becoming profitable. but that doesnt mean anything. they never plan on making money on the consoles, they plan on making money on games. the more consoles out there the more games being sold. but what microsoft didnt plan on is the success of the Wii, but then again nobody did. the Wii is filling in the gap with the lack of PS3s more then the 360, which is exactly why microsoft should plan on a price drop soon. id say $100 by next december if they are going to maintain sales. i can promise that the Wii will be down $50 by next year and they will feature the Wii with the DVD player at the retail price of the current model. the fact that the Wii is $50 more then any other release from Nintendo and they are making money on each console sold. this is exactly why Nintendo has won this round. they played the perfect game of catchup from the 360 being released a year previous. though i still believe the PS3 will regain strength once they iron out the issues of releasing a product before its ready, they really did make too many last minute decisions.

By crystal clear on 11/29/2006 5:39:21 AM , Rating: 2
" Consumers do not look at a product and judge its value based on the sum total cost of its components. "
Consumer awareness is very high, thanks to the internet &
websites that encourage consumer awareness & expose product
pricing or company pricing policy.

The consumer of today values every $ in his pocket & wants
to get the maximum out of it.Money doesnt come easy -you got to work very hard for it.

"the actual losses are much more than we can tell through BOM analysis of teardowns . "

Response-yes you are right but these analysis give an indication to the consumer of its costing,even though they do not include development cost.The consumer/buyer considers this, his/hers right to be informed from independent sources.Their right to access information is supreme.

Anyway I respect your opinions on the subject.

By crystal clear on 11/29/2006 4:36:40 AM , Rating: 2
tell me again why MS should cut prices?

"Some vendors are taking matters into their own hands by offering special promotions or rebates with Xbox 360 systems,"

The above shows that the buyers/consumer want one & vendors
know the market better than MS & oblige the buyer.
If a Vendor can offer a price cut then MS can also do so.
The very fact vendors have taken matters in their own hands
shows lack of market awareness & slow response of MS.

Vendors are not fools, they are shrewd business men
who know the market well day to day & respond accordingly.

"Game reviewers fought each other to write the most glowing coverage possible for the powerhouse Sony, MS systems. Reviewers flipped coins to see who would review the Nintendo Wii. The losers got stuck with the job." -- Andy Marken

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