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Microsoft also takes issue with criticism on $599 (with keyboard) base price, argues it's a great value

While Apple, Inc.'s (AAPL) late CEO Steven P. Jobs may have been the king of "reality distortion", with famous comments to customers like "You're holding it wrong," Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) has been trying its best to earn that elite status with recent comments regarding the upcoming Surface tablet.

I. Microsoft to Redditors: You're Looking at it Wrong

In comments on Reddit's "ask me anything" series (which notably featured President Obama as a past guest), The Microsoft Surface team offered up a bit of spin.

When asked:
  • Do you think ~$700 is too much for a tablet that does not currently own a share of the market?
  • I noticed that the Surface has a resolution of 1366×768 vs the iPad3 2048×1536. Do you think this will affect users considering the Surface vs the iPad ?
He replied:

Screen resolution is one component of perceived detail. The true measure of resolvability of a screen called Modulation Transfer Function (MTF), not Pixels. MTF is a combination of both contrast and resolution. There are over a dozen subsystems that effect this MTF number.. Most folks just focus on one number out of dozens that effect perceived detail. Without good contrast resolution decreases. Check out contrast sensitivity of the human eye graph (http://www.telescope-optics.net/images/eye_contrast.PNG" rel="nofollow) and if you want more see the links below.

Basically, as resolution/DPI increases the eye has becomes less sensitive. So as a result, the amount of light in a room and the reflections off the screen have a huge effect on the contrast of the display.... we designed a custom 10.6” high-contrast wide-angle screen LCD screen. Lastly we optically bonded the screen with the thinnest optical stack anywhere on the market.. something which is more commonly done on phones we are doing on Surface. While this is not official, our current Cleartype measurements on the amount of light reflected off the screen is around 5.5%-6.2%, the new IPad has a measurement of 9.9% mirror reflections (see the displaymate link: http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_ShootOut_1.htm" rel="nofollow). Doing a side by side with the new iPad in a consistently lit room, we have had many people see more detail on Surface RT than on the Ipad with more resolution.



 
In other words, the Surface Team is arguing that because Surface's screen was design to have less glare, it is actually perceived to be higher resolution than the iPad 3, which has roughly 3 times the pixel count -- sort of the Microsoft equivalent of "you're looking at it wrong."

That statement was quickly attacked.  PurpleSfinx writes:

Yeah, I'm calling bulls--t on this one. What % is 'many'? You must have used some horribly biased maths to figure out that some people are seeing more detail on a 1366768 screen than a 20481536 one. Resolution isn't the only indicator of screen quality, but it's generally the most important one, and any way you cut it.

No one really backed up the glare statement, but some did seem to prickle at the criticism as the pro-iPad critics were downrated, despite giving seeming legitimate arguments that went mostly unrequited.

II. Price Also Draws Commenter Ire

When asked about the decision to price it at $599 USD for the base 32 GB model + cover, Microsoft comments:

When you start to see it includes touch cover, clear type display with better contrast, twice as much storage, along with Office included, you have a pretty cool deal. I think you will find the value is extraordinary once you start using the product.

In other words, a tablet with similar processing hardware, but tactile keyboard, full Office, full USB/peripheral compatibility, expandable memory, and 16 GB of extra storage, but with one-third the pixels and less apps is worth an extra $100 USD.

It's an interesting argument -- Microsoft is right, it certainly does offer some compelling features, but its price is higher and despite the spin, the screen is lower resolution.  Thus whether Microsoft's opinion is "right" or "wrong" likely largely boils down to what users are looking for.

But it's hard to argue that Microsoft would be facing quite as much debate if it had set the price with keyboard at, say, $499 USD.

Some other interesting info offered:
  • The size of the OS + OfficeRT + "a bunch of apps" is about 20 GB; Microsoft you can use swappable SD cards for your music, movie, and photo needs if you fill up past the 32 GB ($499 threshold) or 64 GB ($699 USD) threshold.
     
  • Microsoft claims that its research indicates that only 1/3rd of tablets sold are broadband capable, and of those half go unactivated (which would suggest only 1/6th of tablets have working 3G/4G data access).
     
  • USB 3.0 was not added due to ARM SoC incompatibility
     
  • Bluetooth 4.0 is supported, and Xbox 360 controllers are compatible with Surface games
     
  • The Surface lacks a GPS sensor
The Surface is a pretty interesting device, certainly.  But what do you think of Microsoft's explanation of its screen and price?

Source: Reddit



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surface pro
By xti on 10/17/2012 12:37:46 PM , Rating: 3
i think most geeks are gonna wait for the x86 surface pro's anyways.

Since the wife doesnt let me keep the main comp in the living room, a $1k or less tablet that lets me play an mmo or whatever from the couch while she is watching if the kardashians finally take new york will greatly be needed.

otherwise, i mean the apple app store alone would make me buy an ipad3 over an android tablet, so idk how MS thinks the surface RT are gonna make any kind of catch up.




RE: surface pro
By Rukkian on 10/17/2012 1:26:27 PM , Rating: 4
Just curious, but what about the app store would get you to buy an ipad over android.

I agree that the hardware is better than pretty much all of the androids out there, and their OS is pretty simple (too much in my opinion), but I would like to know what about the app store would sway your purchase.

With Android, you can load apps from anywhere (or lock it down by default to just google play if that is your thing), the difference in the number of apps is very small, and I never find anything that my wife can do in the app store that I can not get on my nexus, the quality is pretty much on par, and most things are cheaper (at at worst the same price) as the app store equivalent.


RE: surface pro
By xti on 10/17/2012 1:41:59 PM , Rating: 2
I upgraded to the Galaxy S3, and just came off the iphone4. I love the GS3, so I try to not be biased.

google play store is great. but there are some games and what not that just seem to get apple store first, then later google play, or not at all. Simpsons tapped out was a fun 30 seconds at a time game on iOS, not available for google play, for example.


RE: surface pro
By NellyFromMA on 10/17/2012 1:57:59 PM , Rating: 1
It's perception 9 out of 10 times. There are no killer apps exclusively on the apple store that I know of at least. Enough blogger's with bias have repeated that volume of apps means better platform which is funny because those same bloggers 5 - 8 years ago claimed that was no reason for Windows to be dominant.

Try not to get caught up in the spin. Most people use their PC for FB, messeging, and internet access. A couple of games here and there and that's about it.

Make that simple and keep the hardware quality up and its a shockingly open market even still.


RE: surface pro
By andrewaggb on 10/17/2012 4:19:55 PM , Rating: 1
I'd disagree.

The apple app store does have some apps the android one doesn't, and some of the equivalents aren't as good. In my case ticket to ride, dominion, magic the gathering. Lots of others. If playing games on your tablet is what you want it for, then currently the ipad is the champ. Many media functions are better on android, web browsing is comparable. Google apps are great.

Win 8 will get lots of games, probably some high profile ones. Surface Pro should be able to run many steam games assuming you have a usb xbox 360 controller.


RE: surface pro
By kleinma on 10/17/2012 5:30:40 PM , Rating: 2
The wireless xbox 360 controller will work with surface ;)

As far as high profile, I do know MS inked some exclusive with Rovio for an angry birds game on Win8. Personally not a fan of the game, but everyone else seems to be.


RE: surface pro
By MGSsancho on 10/18/2012 2:36:46 AM , Rating: 2
The xbox360 controller is enough to sway me to the MS route (I know it can be done with andorid unofficially too). I have all of these ROMs of older games. If Microsoft will allow good emulators on the Surface will be amazing. Granted this is asking alot from Microsoft and proper emulation support.


RE: surface pro
By Bubbacub on 10/18/2012 5:23:28 AM , Rating: 1
they wont let you use emulators.

and you wont be able to sideload one either.

they will want you to pay for an inferior modern remake of a classic game e.g. the recent remake of monkey island, or just restrict your choice.

why let you enjoy something that you already own for free when they could restrict access and possibly charge for it?

winrt (and by extension the metro appstore on x86) is breaking a principle from the earliest days of dos - anyone can code anything and sell it however they want to.

i cannot stand it for that very reason


RE: surface pro
By invidious on 10/18/2012 2:00:48 PM , Rating: 2
get the x86 version and use whatever software you want, problem solved.


RE: surface pro
By Lugaidster on 10/22/2012 2:29:52 AM , Rating: 2
But not a touch-friendly (Read: Modern-UI) version of that software. Metro apps are locked to the store on both versions, so Emulators are pretty much out of the equation.

If you want to sideload apps, it's Android or nothing.


RE: surface pro
By xti on 10/23/2012 11:16:22 AM , Rating: 2
not yet at least. I mean they had to get made for the droid too at one point...


RE: surface pro
By Tony Swash on 10/17/12, Rating: -1
RE: surface pro
By Pirks on 10/17/2012 11:59:39 PM , Rating: 2
Gee Tony who would have thought MS would pwn Apple on the apps market reach?! Holy eff... I was SURPRISED to say the least. Looks like Ballmer knows what he's doing.


RE: surface pro
By Tony Swash on 10/18/2012 6:31:57 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Gee Tony who would have thought MS would pwn Apple on the apps market reach?! Holy eff... I was SURPRISED to say the least. Looks like Ballmer knows what he's doing.


I agree about surprise about the coverage but Microsoft must have a big infrastructure for global support for Windows so I assume they wisely built on top of that. Of course we are talking store fronts and not actual app content and we have yet to see how many apps get built for Windows 8 RT (is that the latest name - I have lost track).

The MS app store could end up like the MS Apple retail store clones, where the Apple stores are packed with punters and the MS stores down the road have tumbleweed blowing along deserted aisles.

It seems the really tricky part of arranging widespread digital content deals are things like music, film and TV, with films and TV being really difficult to arrange. Those scared and confused content makers and owners are still not sure how to cope with the present let alone the future and are just plain scared by the app model.


RE: surface pro
By themaster08 on 10/18/2012 8:36:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Windows 8 RT (is that the latest name - I have lost track).
What are you talking about? Windows 8 RT's name has never changed. You must be referring to Metro, which was the name of the UI. But how quaint for someone as technologically minded as yourself to become so easily confused. Bless :)


RE: surface pro
By Tony Swash on 10/18/12, Rating: -1
RE: surface pro
By themaster08 on 10/18/2012 10:37:35 AM , Rating: 2
You might be laughing now, but let's see in 6 months time when Windows 8 has consumed half of the iPad's market share and has 250,000 apps :)


RE: surface pro
By Taft12 on 10/18/2012 4:18:46 PM , Rating: 2
I was a bit skeptical of the reality distortion field truly spreading to the Windows 8 fanboys, but now I'm not so sure...


RE: surface pro
By themaster08 on 10/19/2012 2:06:44 AM , Rating: 2
C'mon man, I was just trying to get a rise out of Tony :)

It's not impossible though. We'll see how this once plays out.


RE: surface pro
By tayb on 10/18/2012 12:02:34 PM , Rating: 3
There is no such thing as Windows 8 RT. The name of the Arm variant of Windows 8 is Windows RT. Windows RT does not and will not ever run x86 apps nor will you be able to install any applications that don't come from the Windows Store, ie Metro Apps.

Windows 8 has a huge "app" catalog mainly because it can run almost any piece of software written for MS Windows in the past decade. None of these software applications are available on Windows RT.


RE: surface pro
By chripuck on 10/18/2012 8:59:15 AM , Rating: 3
Really? I've got an Android tablet and an iPhone, the iOS platform has MANY games that either are "exclusive" (Infinity Blade, Square Enix games, Galaxy on Fire) or arrive much earlier (e.g. Rockstar games)

If you want to talk about casual games, then sure, Android is just as up to date. But if you want to talk about games that a GAMER would actually play for more than 2 minutes, iOS has a clear advantage.


RE: surface pro
By CrazyBernie on 10/18/2012 11:22:21 AM , Rating: 2
That advantage is pretty moot... 'cause a GAMER would use a real GAMING platform for playing GAMES.

XBOX, PlayStation, or *GASP* a PC.


RE: surface pro
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:11:08 PM , Rating: 1
A greater number of app stores doesn't mean that there are a greater number of high quality apps.

Apps are one of the main reason I'm still with iOS. It remains the target platform for mobile developers, meaning that the best version will generally be there. Switching to another platform means dropping exclusive apps that do a better job than their counterparts (Reeder, Alien Blue, Jasmine, any number of games), or getting an inferior port.

Its the same reason I have a Windows machine, it is the main target platform for game developers (excluding console ports), meaning that it'll get the most volume and the best versions.


RE: surface pro
By Rukkian on 10/17/2012 5:19:31 PM , Rating: 2
Takin, I am not really shocked that you think the app store is better, it would not matter what somebody said.

As for the apps, I must not play enough games, (nor does my wife, or 2 kids) cause there has yet to be a game that my wife can get in the app store that either herself or either of my 2 kids would want that I cannot get on my device. There have been several instances where I will get a game for free (or very cheap on sale) and then my wife goes and buys the same thing so my son can play it on his ipod touch. NFS was one I got for $0.25 and my wife paid like $6.

I am not saying one is better than the other, and see them as being pretty equal for quality of apps, and even quantity. While there may be 2x the number of fart apps, I don't even need one.


RE: surface pro
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 7:44:23 PM , Rating: 1
I agree. I have yet to see any killer app that isnt on both platforms, either the exact same app, or an equivalent. The guy acts like on a 10 scale, the Apple app store is a 9 and Android a 2. Its more like a 9 to an 8. Close enough.


RE: surface pro
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 8:57:40 PM , Rating: 2
Eh, more like a 9 and a 6. BB gets a 2. :)


RE: surface pro
By retrospooty on 10/18/2012 7:56:22 AM , Rating: 2
"BB gets a 2"

On this we can agree LOL (although you are probably being too generous)


RE: surface pro
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 9:03:37 PM , Rating: 2
"Fart apps" is quite the easy straw man.

As for games, yeah, I guess you don't play enough. Frozen Synapse and Baldur's Gate are two off the top of my head that I cannot wait for, and neither have a timetable for an Android release. The list goes on, but if we're talking about mass casual games like Angry Birds then there is certainly parity there. Close, but the difference is significant enough to matter to me.


RE: surface pro
By augiem on 10/17/2012 3:45:42 PM , Rating: 5
I really hate the whole app store movement, but think about it. If Windows 8 is at all successful (God forbid) in 2 or 3 years there will probably be more apps for Windows 8 than iOS. Give it a few more years and you're talking millions. It's a unified platform and its very likely most games and apps will start going through the MS app store instead of retail in the years to come. Even if Windows 8 flops, Windows 9 is not likely to do away with the app store. As long as Windows even just maintains 1/2 the marketshare they have on PCs, it will easily become the biggest marketplace.


RE: surface pro
By augiem on 10/17/2012 3:49:54 PM , Rating: 2
And, yes I do realize RT doesn't run the same code as x86, but development tools are making it easier and easier to develop one version and immediately port to another with little effort, which is likely what will happen for RT/x86 apps. For example, Unity3D is a game engine that lets you build your game out to PC, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS, Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii (as long as you have all the licenses).


RE: surface pro
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
Yup, Microsoft's development tools are the best. If it catches on then Microsoft will end up with a massive high quality tablet app library.


RE: surface pro
By Mitch101 on 10/17/2012 9:05:25 PM , Rating: 2
EMULATORS! EMULATORS! EMULATORS!

This is a Windows Computer!!!!! Wont take much for them to recompile the emulators to work on ARM just like they work on X86/X64.

BlueStacks and AMD Bring 500,000 Android Apps to Windows 8
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/09/bluestacks-...

Windows 8 tablets are compatible with X-Box controllers. Not sure if its just the wired ones but that's a start.

PROJECT LAZARUS?
PINMAME and VISUAL PINBALL ANYONE?
PCSX2 and DOLPHIN?
XBMC?

If your not excited about a WINDOWS TABLET your doing something wrong.


RE: surface pro
By MGSsancho on 10/18/2012 2:38:01 AM , Rating: 2
This is enough to get me to purchase it. Great for gaming on long flights and train rides.


RE: surface pro
By dark matter on 10/18/2012 5:28:15 AM , Rating: 2
You won't be getting ANY of those emulators on the ARM Win8 machine.

Unless you plan on hacking the device.

As the ONLY way to get RT apps on an ARM tablet will be via the MS app store.


RE: surface pro
By Brian H on 10/20/2012 8:28:51 AM , Rating: 2
Ouch. Twitch.
If you're not excited ... you're doing something wrong.
If your/you're/yore confuze yu, just use yor for all of them.


RE: surface pro
By Lugaidster on 10/22/2012 2:39:47 AM , Rating: 2
There's a big reason I'm not excited. None of those apps are going to have a touch-friendly Metro version available. Metro apps can only be installed through the store and that applies to both Windows 8 and Windows RT.

Microsoft intends to create a locked environment with WinRT runtime (not Windows, but the runtime), that means that whatever doesn't comply with the store rules won't be available (It's already in their rules that there's no permission to applications that generate code, which rules out emulators.)

Now, if you're refering to buying an x86 Windows 8 tablet to be able to use desktop apps, you already have those today on the market with pretty much the same hardware and price.

Don't get your hopes up my friend, Windows RT is just as closed up as iOS. It's no easier to port any of those emulators to WinRT than it is to Android or iOS. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Cheers


RE: surface pro
By B3an on 10/18/2012 5:00:41 AM , Rating: 2
Thats wrong. There is no porting needed at all. All Win 8 apps from the Store will automatically run on Win RT.

The Metro/Modern UI is based on the new Windows RunTime environment, on both Win 8 and RT (hence the name Windows RT, for RunTime). So any app a developer makes for Win 8 will automatically work on RT. Theres no extra work needed as it's the exact same environment and it uses the exact same API's.


RE: surface pro
By tayb on 10/18/2012 12:15:49 PM , Rating: 1
The ARM variant of Windows 8 is called Windows RT. The RT does not stand for Run Time. The "RT" in Windows RT is not an acronym for anything. Metro is a common UI element between Windows 8, Windows Phone 7/8, and Windows RT. An app targeting Windows 8 will NOT run on Windows RT and vice versa just because it shares a common UI element.

There is porting from Windows 8 to Windows RT but it isn't difficult for newer apps. It is simply recompiling with a different target. Older apps might have issues, however.


RE: surface pro
By sviola on 10/18/2012 2:07:08 PM , Rating: 2
There is a Windows Runtime, called WinRT, that runs all metro applications and UI. This is the only API available to Windows RT, hence the name. For Windows *, developers can develop either WinRT or Win32 apps. Software developed for WinRT will run in both Windows 8 and Windows RT, without recompiling.


RE: surface pro
By tayb on 10/18/2012 3:36:31 PM , Rating: 2
I'm well aware of WinRT. If a developer writes a Metro app using WinRT it WILL run in the Metro UI on Windows 8 or Windows RT.

A few problems:

1. Any existing Windows application will have to be ported to run on Windows RT.

2. WinRT isn't backward compatible. If I write an app with .NET 4.5 it can run on XP, Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. If I write an app with WinRT it will run in Metro on Windows 8+ only.

3. WinRT apps can only be distributed through the Windows Store. I give up my ability to distribute my own apps and must instead submit my application, and subsequent updates, into Microsoft for approval and distribution. Oh, yeah, and they take a big cut of the revenue.

In a nut shell, you're right and wrong. Existing x86 apps will need to be ported but new Metro apps will work on Windows RT or Windows 8 in the Metro UI.

But I believe new app development and porting of old apps will be a challenge for Microsoft. Microsoft is trying to convince me to port my existing apps to WinRT and to entice me they're telling me that they'll take a big cut of the revenue, remove backward compatibility (which basically cuts 90% of the target audience), and subject me to an Apple-esque approval process. Neither my company nor myself nor any of my developer friends have any plans to develop a Metro app in the next 6-8 months.


RE: surface pro
By sviola on 10/18/2012 2:07:14 PM , Rating: 3
There is a Windows Runtime, called WinRT, that runs all metro applications and UI. This is the only API available to Windows RT, hence the name. For Windows 8, developers can develop either WinRT or Win32 apps. Software developed for WinRT will run in both Windows 8 and Windows RT, without recompiling.


RE: surface pro
By Trisped on 10/17/2012 7:04:45 PM , Rating: 2
In some ways it makes sense, as instead of charging for the OS, Microsoft can take a cut of the software sales. This way, if the OS is good, Microsoft makes money.

It also helps combat piracy. If they did not pay for the OS then they will pay when they buy the apps. It also helps the application vendors who have been suffering losses due to piracy for quite some time.


RE: surface pro
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 9:06:03 PM , Rating: 2
Malware is another benefit. By vetting applications, Microsoft ensures that the device doesn't fall prey to malware. It is a big reason why iOS is so secure, while a jailbroken iOS device or any Android device is so vulnerable in comparison. The most insecure Windows RT and WP9 devices will be the ones modified to sideload apps.


RE: surface pro
By Lugaidster on 10/22/2012 2:45:02 AM , Rating: 2
I don't see much malware on Linux and yet it still is pretty open to whatever app you bring on. No software is perfect. Give a hacker enough incentive and they'll pluck a hole in it. That's just a matter of time for Windows 8 if it gains a wide enough audience.


RE: surface pro
By Trisped on 10/30/2012 5:52:24 PM , Rating: 2
You are right, it is about how many users, and the complexity of the hack. From what I understand there are many Linux viruses out there, but they are relatively pedestrian (so they do not get found) and are a small fraction of the total number of viruses due to the limited install base of Linux and its geek friendly mentality.

The advantage of the Windows App Store is that if a app does have a virus Microsoft can pull the app from their store and every device it is installed on. If someone finds a bug which allows them to insert malicious software onto a Window 8 RT or Windows Phone 8 device then Microsoft can delete anything which is not signed with a proper store signature.

While it does not completely remove the risk of hacking, it does greatly diminish it. It also makes it easier for authorities to track down the hacker, as a credit card must be used to create the account which published the malicious app.


RE: surface pro
By Samus on 10/18/2012 3:56:30 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. I'll be waiting for x86 I'm just not sold on Windows RT because it doesn't have an x86 emulator. I can't believe Microsoft's blindness to this. When Apple transitioned from MacOS9 to OSX, they had an emulator . When Apple transitioned from PPC to x86, they had an emulator. These allowed for successful transitions to new platforms and architectures.

My invoicing software is a basic 32-bit x86 program probably VC++ 5.0-era and being a 30mb program is not demanding, but I'm not going to run a virtual machine in RT with Windows XP or something ridiculous just to invoice on-site.

I don't even really like the new "Start Menu" in Windows 8 to begin with but I'm sure I'll get used to it, especially on a touch screen (what it was designed for.) People really blow this out of proportion, when the desktop and most other Windows 7-esq features are virtually untouched. If you configure the taskbar properly you very rarely go into the Start Menu anyway.


RE: surface pro
By Taft12 on 10/18/2012 4:23:52 PM , Rating: 2
Even Microsoft themselves provided Windows XP emulation in Windows Vista and 7. I realize providing x86 emulation in WinRT is an enormous development effort and that MS NEEDS to get on the market ASAP, but this won't help earn marketshare.


RE: surface pro
By Visual on 10/18/2012 7:51:09 AM , Rating: 2
No one with half a brain will wait the whole three months that MS is saying they will delay the Surface Pro if Samsung Ativ Pro launches sooner and does not end up having some unforseen design issues. MS is kinda wasting their chance here, though I'm not sure if they even care, since it uses their OS either way.

I have been waiting years now for such devices... I am getting extremely pissed off by their attempts to make me wait even more for no reason.


people aren't that smart
By foo1970 on 10/17/2012 1:46:47 PM , Rating: 3
All these arguments only [slightly] make sense for someone who isn't in the reality distortion field.

Most people are in the field and they already "KNOW" these to be facts:

* An iPad is the best thing out there
* An iPhone is the best thing out there
* An iPod is the best music player
* iTunes is the coolest music box
* Steve Jobs was a god
* Mac and PC are not friends

Now, you're trying to convince them with the 4 brain cells they have left that lower resolution looks better than higher resolution because the display is thinner? Why not just go with cheaper is better?

They are going to ask, does it crack easier too? Also, I'm thinking, why does the OS need 12 Gigs just to be on?

I think 94,000 + 100 units will sell. 100 for the press, and 94,000 cause each employee gets one.

I think we'll see prices start coming down next month so that they can move units.

no GPS, no wireless, no Gorilla Glass II, no NFC, cant use the office for work (per the license agreement).. Can you make our 4 brain cells work any harder?

This will be a very good tabtop in the $199 - $399 range.




RE: people aren't that smart
By poi2 on 10/17/2012 6:22:58 PM , Rating: 2
C'mon, they are not "That" dumb . . .
I bet some of them already understand that they make wrong choice, and it is economically suicide for flip flops.

Unless there is a bazzar titled :
"Exchange your iPad to Surface for $299" or something to help lost lamb right ?


RE: people aren't that smart
By BabelHuber on 10/18/2012 9:51:14 AM , Rating: 3
They are that dumb. They already failed with Zune, Kin and WP7. Steve Ballmer is destroying the company.

I would not switch from my Asus TF Prime to this piece of junk, really.

- No root access
- No sideloading af Apps
- Locked Bootloader
- Almost no Apps

I can do whatever I want with my Android tablet, I have tried out different Asus-based and AOSP Android-Versions, I have installed emulators for Atari 2600, SuperNintendo and Nintendo 64.

I have lots of games which can be played via gamepad.

And teh XBox-controller works, too.

They only advantage of this RT-junk is Office. OTOH it is a Wallet Garden like the iPad.

This goes against anything I ever experienced with Windows. Its strong point was always its flexibility and its openness.

This is the exact opposite of what I want to have. No WART for me.


RE: people aren't that smart
By zephyrprime on 10/18/2012 11:32:20 AM , Rating: 2
It has GPS and Gorilla Glass 2. I don't know where you got the idea that it doesn't. The tablet market is very nascent and there is a lot of room for competition.


Not Even Close
By Kyuu on 10/17/2012 7:04:59 PM , Rating: 2
This isn't even in the same realm as the "you're holding it wrong" thing. Nice try though.

1366x768 is honestly just fine for a 10" device, as long as the screen is high quality in other important metrics, which is certainly seems to be.

Only issue is that $499 plus $100+ for the keyboard covers is a bit too much. The keyboard covers are neat, but just not worth $100+. No way, no how. $499 for the tablet itself is actually quite resonable, but Microsoft still really should have resolved itself to breaking even (or even taking a bit of a loss) on the first-gen hardware to get a foothold in the market and made it $399.

As it is, I still want a Win8 tablet, but I'm going to wait for a good and reasonably priced x86 one.




RE: Not Even Close
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 7:08:02 PM , Rating: 2
"1366x768 is honestly just fine for a 10" device"

If it costs $200 , not $600 No freegin way.


RE: Not Even Close
By Visual on 10/18/2012 8:08:42 AM , Rating: 2
It is not fine at all in portrait mode.
No website that I have visited in the last year or so fits in under 1024 pixels horizontally.
And no desktop browser so far has had even a half-decent website zoom/scaling functionality. Browsers for ARM devices are generally better in this regard, and maybe IE10 for ARM will also be able to match them, but even then I would much prefer to have the comfort of unscaled browsing.


RE: Not Even Close
By Kyuu on 10/18/2012 5:44:54 PM , Rating: 2
I never browse websites in portrait orientation on a smartphone, tablet, or monitor. Websites are built for widescreen resolutions nowadays, so I'm not sure why anyone would. Unless you just really hate to have to scroll.

Granted, they were already building essentially a custom panel since no one really made a 10.6" panel. Given that, it seems like they should have gone with 1600x900 at the minimum. It's not like they are buying a cheap mass produced panel in the first place.


RE: Not Even Close
By TakinYourPoints on 10/18/2012 10:24:11 PM , Rating: 2
I do landscape on a phone since that's how it naturally fits in one hand, but landscape all the way for a tablet. Web pages and applications read much better that way, it gives you both horizontal and vertical space to read in.

This is why 16:9 in a tablet doesn't work for me, same reason 16:9 doesn't work for me with desktop under 27" or laptop displays of any size.


Not A FanBoy
By Robbie89512 on 10/17/2012 1:36:56 PM , Rating: 1
I have had an Apple iPhone since inception. Why? It was the best damn smart phone available (I now have 4S and will not get the 5 anytime soon). I also got the first iPad. Why? It was the best tablet available. Now I am infused with Apple products and I have an account containing many thousands of purchases from music, movies and apps. Do you really think people like me (and there are MILLIONS) are going to drop Apple and run to MS for this tablet, and in the process leave all of the music, apps, and $$$$ behind? Aside from the resolution thing on the Surface (the retina display is phenomenal - I have the original iPad and the New iPad and the difference is night and day), I find the offering to be interesting, especially the Office part. But I can't see myself running out and buying this tablet and "starting over" with new purchases, etc. just because of Office. I also do not use my iPad for work - it is for entertainment and reading only - if I'm going to work, I use my PC. If IT managers were issuing the new Surface for work related reasons, then this tablet might have a chance. People who already are infused with Apple products will not switch because it is economic suicide. Their only hope is company purchases and getting a hold of the people who have never used an Apple product.




RE: Not A FanBoy
By nikon133 on 10/17/2012 5:32:35 PM , Rating: 3
Well of course not. But people like me? I have $20 invested in iOS apps (still running my 3Gs) and $0 in apps on my Transformer tablet.

RT and WP8 are for people who sill haven't made a choice, or at least haven't invested much in their current choice, for whatever reason. Tablet and smartphone markets are still young, number of consumers yet unclaimed.

At the end, I'm hoping to see 3 strong platforms competing, rather than one strong platform dominating.


RE: Not A FanBoy
By lotharamious on 10/17/2012 6:28:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yes. All of it. You speak truth.


RE: Not A FanBoy
By Alexvrb on 10/19/2012 2:24:46 AM , Rating: 3
You're just their kind of sucker. I would never buy music and movies that only run on Apple devices (or only Android, etc), whereas you've already fallen into their trap.


Perfect for business users
By Big_Mook on 10/17/2012 1:41:19 PM , Rating: 3
I think we're missing a potentially important segment for the Surface, businesses. Right now, users of iPad and Android devices don't have full Exchange email capability: ActiveSync can't deal with server-side distribution lists. Believe it or not, this has been a major stumbling block for the users I support.

However, with an MS Surface running Windows and full-blown Outlook, that's no longer a problem. My company is trying to get users to hold off on iPad and Android tablets in order to wait for just this device to fill that need. It will be compatible with existing desktop apps and will be much easier to manage from an IT perspective.

Businesses don't care about thousands of cool or interesting apps, only those that are needed to run the business and it will only help if the device is running Windows and Office natively.




RE: Perfect for business users
By TormDK on 10/17/2012 4:19:05 PM , Rating: 2
The problem with businesses and the Surface RT Tablet is that it cannot join domains, so cannot be centrally managed. It is, and will remain a consumer product.

Business would be able to utilize the Surface Pro though, or one of the other great non RT devices coming out in the next few months as to give users a great experience for both work and play.


RE: Perfect for business users
By kmmatney on 10/17/2012 7:32:46 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not an IT guy, but my iPad and iPhone have no trouble synching up to our exchange server. I don't use distribution lists, so maybe that is a problem, but the iPad handles everything else I do in Outlook, including viewing Office attachments. It nice to be able to knock out a few work emails while sitting on the couch...


RE: Perfect for business users
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 7:41:21 PM , Rating: 1
IT gets email like and syncs calendar contacts etc just like any EAS client, and it can open and edit office docs, but that is not anything close to the real MS office. It's like a stripped down 10% functional version (being very generous). Try to set up a complex rule in outlook, or a pivot table in Excel. Its good for a mobile device, but its not the full MS office by any means.


Anyone care to post sales estimate
By Tony Swash on 10/17/2012 6:36:07 PM , Rating: 1
Anyone care to post a first quarter and first year Surface sales estimates? I say less than 2 million in quarter one, maybe less than a million, and less than 10 million in year one? Those figures are not based on much more than a hunch but I would be interested to hear other people's hunches on Surface sales.

A related question is how high does Surface sales have to go to be considered a success? I would have thought anything less than 25% of the tablet market after say three years would be a failure but again not very scientific just a hunch.




RE: Anyone care to post sales estimate
By Pirks on 10/18/2012 2:45:05 AM , Rating: 3
Tony of course conveniently "forgot" that $499 Surface sold out in 24 hours. Can't expect anything different from an Apple zealot eh? ;)


RE: Anyone care to post sales estimate
By Mint on 10/18/2012 3:12:35 AM , Rating: 2
Surface is really just meant to grab attention and be an example to help lead the Win8 manufacturers in the right direction. I think MS was a bit peeved that so few notebook manufacturers made build quality and appearance a priority, instead trying to minimize cost.

If Win8 tablets are a success, then Surface will have served its purpose.


I'm wiht Microsoft
By Luticus on 10/17/2012 2:25:03 PM , Rating: 2
1) A screen that bounces back less glare will BY DESIGN look better than one with glare.

2) Movies at 1080p won't look optimal on the surface but they won't look much better on Apples display even if resolution is the only factor.

3) Apples crappy "flash game" like apps look terrible no matter what resolution they are at.

4) Windows x86 version makes Apples app library irrelevant.

5) The windows 8 tablet should be cross compatible with the windows phone 8 meaning the rate of app development should pick up because developers can build and app once and have it work in both environments.

6) Office is a killer "app" and worth it's weight in tablet. It easily blows any competing product off the map.

7) Of the two I'd by the surface simply because it isn't running crappy, limited, jailed IOS.

8) I have GPS in my phone, I can piggy back off that pretty easily.

9) My current tablet doesn't have Mobile broadband and even if it did it WOULD go unactivated because Verizon is a douche bag.

10) If I decide to alter my tablet in some way I can be sure that Microsoft won't intentionally break my tablet because of it (unlike a certain other company, apple... achoo... cough cough).

I'm all for lower price point because that helps me, but lets be reasonable here and stop blowing things out of proportion. Resolution is not the only relevant factor in how great a product is or is not. It's nice sure... but even at a lower resolution the Microsoft tablet is a no-brainer.




RE: I'm wiht Microsoft
By Luticus on 10/17/2012 2:44:59 PM , Rating: 2
As a side note, yes I'm aware the tablet mentioned in the article uses RT. I'm interested in the x86 pro version personally. You can ignore that line if you like :-)


RE: I'm wiht Microsoft
By Azethoth on 10/17/2012 3:46:14 PM , Rating: 1
I did not read your entire rant tl;dr, but 3) is just flat out wrong.

Take a look at Infinity Blade. It does not look crappy. It looks like any regular PC 3d game. Touch adds an interface to it just not available with a mouse. It is a good game.

If a game looks crappy its because it was designed crappy. This has nothing to do with the platform. Just don't buy crappy looking games.


No.
By BillyBatson on 10/17/2012 9:34:50 PM , Rating: 3
That statement wasn't anything like "you're looking at it wrong"




RE: No.
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 11:08:39 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, but that headline sure trolls for hits


Anti-aliasing?
By lightfoot on 10/17/2012 1:14:12 PM , Rating: 2
So Microsoft is saying that they can use a lower resolution screen because they are using anti-aliasing?

Interesting. I suspect that they did this to improve battery life. If you have a higher res screen you always have to push all those pixels. With anti-aliasing (or whatever they want to call this technology) they have the option to turn it off to conserve processing power (and thus improve battery life.)




RE: Anti-aliasing?
By andrewaggb on 10/17/2012 1:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
Could be that tegra 3 isn't able to drive 60 fps consistently at a higher resolution.


I like it.
By CU on 10/17/2012 1:16:33 PM , Rating: 3
I don't see how you get "you're looking at it wrong." This was by design. I don't think Apple intended to design their antenna to not work sometimes. And yes resolution is important, but not everything. Maybe it does look better than an iPad. Have you seen the two side by side. Its like saying X cpu is faster than Y cpu because it runs at a higher frequency. Then you test them and find out you were wrong. Not saying it does look better, but it could.

As for the price. I think it is worth more than an iPad just for the keyboard/cover and expandable memory alone. Having a million apps means nothing to me. As long as it has some basic ones I think most people will be fine. I would replace my old netbook with one in a heart beat, but I just don't have the extra cash lying around for it. Nothing beats a real keyboard for anything more than a simple text message. I will say if it was say $250 or something close to that I would find the cash some how. But, I am sure that would be for a loss and MS doesn't want that.




Nothing like a dead-end product
By TechnoSpinner on 10/17/2012 1:26:27 PM , Rating: 2
No apps, not likely to be apps, since this product is the precursor to a more x86 compatible version, none of us are going to write anything for this platform - too much risk of wasted time.
Too little, too late. Microsoft has once again missed the boat. I think their company's departmentalization and internal competition is having a negative effect on products. Specifically, there's some wonderful gaming tech (such as Kinect) that they keep falling short on integrating - why are they wasting time on touch screens when they could be using gesture?? Because numerous departments in Mickeysoft don't play well together...
MS - rethink your business model, it's 20 years out of date.




RE: Nothing like a dead-end product
By Pirks on 10/18/2012 1:09:38 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
why are they wasting time on touch screens when they could be using gesture?
they DO use gestures everywhere to control win rt interface, ya dumb idiot :))) LOL


Tablet $ = OK, Keyboard $ = WTF
By edge929 on 10/17/2012 3:36:27 PM , Rating: 3
I don't have a problem with the price of the RT tablet but the covers are another story. $100-120 bucks for a really thin keyboard? I can understand maybe 40-50 bucks but $120?

Anyone else catch the fine print that you need a $40 adapter for the proprietary HD video port. No doubt a way to get around HDMI licensing fees (or just taking a page from Apple's book to squeeze more revenue on needless adapters).

I'd love to upgrade my original Transformer tablet but I'm waiting until after all new products come out to decide. Surface RT/Pro, Ultrabooks with touch, hybrid tablet/notebooks, etc.




Not looking at it wrong!
By Trisped on 10/17/2012 7:27:16 PM , Rating: 3
I take issue with the fact that you are implying there is a bug or defect in the tablet because it does not have a top of the line resolution.

Apple's "Your holding it wrong" statement was a testament to their poor R&D not catching a critical problem with a common way of using a smart phone (holding it so you don't drop it).

Microsoft is basically challenging you to compare the monitors yourself and see which one you prefer.




Where does MS say....
By safcman84 on 10/18/2012 4:33:34 AM , Rating: 3
You're looking at it wrong?
Talk about anti-MS bias. Apple actually told customers "you are holding it wrong", where does MS say "try looking at the screen from a different angle"? Nowhere.
Not saying MS is right about their screen, but to accuse them of the same thing as Apple is ridiculous.
Besides, I am currently working on a laptop with 1600x900 resolution. My TV (42") is 1280×720. All perfectly fine for watching HD movies etc.

At what point does "more detail" become just another marketing/sales pitch ? Do I really want to see the pimples on an actors face in clearer detail? What do I need the extra 1/3 of pixels for? Is better contrast and colour definition better once a certain pixel count is reached? (as far as I can tell movies, internet access and angry birds is what most people use their iPads for).

I wouldn't buy either a MS RT tablet or i-pad for personal use, but if I need a productivity device for work to replace my laptop (what the point in carrying both laptop and tablet around?), Surface is the way to go with MS Office. and in that case, an extra $100 for Office and a "real" keyboard is more than worth it.





Surface Expensive?
By Macrosoft on 10/17/2012 1:05:05 PM , Rating: 2
High, low, just right ... the market will determine. Nothing is expensive or cheap.




I'm surprised...
By Rankor on 10/17/2012 2:25:15 PM , Rating: 2
...that Apple hasn't sued Microsoft for borrowing the likeness of (Apple's) 'You're holding it wrong' explanation for the iPhone 4 phone signal reception.

Is that patented?




By mike66 on 10/17/2012 9:16:43 PM , Rating: 2
I can't see the market for another windows laptop which is how I see the surface, ultra thin laptops are really close to what the surface is and we all know that they are not selling well in the current market, that's mainly due to price ( too costly for what they are and what they do). The surface's killer app seems to be office, office didn't sell ultra thins and it won't sell surface. What we use tablets for is tasks that don't require serious horse power like surfing the net, downloading over wifi, reading a book, light gaming and emailing. If I wanted to do more, then I would use my PC that has the huge screen,big hard drive with gaming graphics card and my copy of office, my laptop now sits in my desk draw and is rarely used because of my Adroid tablet, which was cheap to buy, cost nothing for apps ( open office has replaced ms office for document drafts ) because I only use freeware ( small banner ads are no hassle ). I think that surface needs to be as cheap as was my Tegra 2 Android based 10.1 inch tablet when it was released which translates to a cost of about another 1/3 less.




Netbook ftw
By inperfectdarkness on 10/18/2012 5:56:07 AM , Rating: 2
zero compelling reason to buy this over an existing netbook. Netbooks may be dying off--but for $600, I could do better.

You can't break into a new market by charging more for less.




DOA
By zlandar on 10/17/2012 3:01:11 PM , Rating: 1
This thing is basically a Zune tablet.

It will be lucky if it outsells the Zune.




spinjitsu
By jnemesh on 10/17/12, Rating: -1
RE: spinjitsu
By xti on 10/17/2012 12:38:59 PM , Rating: 1
i wouldnt own it if it was free, but cuz i would ebay it.


RE: spinjitsu
By Nutzo on 10/17/2012 1:08:37 PM , Rating: 2
Guess Microsoft can't run on thier record, just like the Obama campaign. :)

The resolution on the Ipad is much higher than most people can see, while microsoft's resolution is ok for a 10" screen.

Ever wonder why Apple switched to such a high resolution screen? Same reason they didn't change the width of the screen on the iPhone 5 (just made it longer)

It's a limit of IOS, and too many apps can't handle a different screen resolution (unlike Android).
On the iPhone 5 they just made the screen longer, so they can just letterbox the apps.

On the Ipad, they doubled the resolution so they can just double up the pixels, like watching 480p video on a 1080p screen.


RE: spinjitsu
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 1:17:41 PM , Rating: 2
"Higher perceived resolution"...yeah, right! Put it side by side with the new iPad and say that with a straight face!"

Yup, the iPad is probably overkill, but that beats the hell out of underkill...

Seriously 1366x768 must die!!!


RE: spinjitsu
By Pirks on 10/18/12, Rating: 0
RE: spinjitsu
By andrewaggb on 10/17/2012 1:24:14 PM , Rating: 5
Without independent reviews we don't really know.

If you're not at all interested in the surface why are you posting?


Apple has people hypnotized
By worldriot on 10/17/12, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By DrChemist on 10/17/2012 1:17:19 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. People are forgetting that a 32Gb iPad 3 is $599 with NO cover, NO keyboard, NO way to expand to 64Gb+ without paying an extra $100+, NO business software - Office.

If you work for a living and want to use a tablet for anything except letting your kids play angry birds or looking at your mail and playing the latest youtube video than you want the MS Surface.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By othercents on 10/17/2012 1:36:36 PM , Rating: 4
I agree it is a good price and you don't have to buy the keyboard (what a concept). I use my tablets mostly for movies and web browsing when I don't want to start my laptop. My movies I watch are encoded at 480p and I'm fine with the entertainment value I get from them.

I think the major value of Windows 8 RT is a laptop replacement. Right now I use my laptop for those things that don't work on the tablet. Hopefully with Windows 8 RT everything will work. Now we just have to see if another vendor comes out with a 32GB version for a significant discounted price.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By Ammohunt on 10/17/2012 4:18:57 PM , Rating: 2
Thats a sad argument who uses a tablet for real work? Laptop > any Tablet.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 1:23:49 PM , Rating: 1
"WTF good does resolution do when all you're looking at is Angry Birds all day anyway? "

Clarity, period. It's not that we need retina, but 1366x768 is just ridiculous in 2012. 1600x900 would be decent.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By NellyFromMA on 10/17/12, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 2:07:40 PM , Rating: 2
To me its not even about crisp/clearness of picture so much as 768 just isnt enough height to get anything done. You have to scroll way too much, especially when remoting in to other computers/servers. Its just freegin aweful.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By 91TTZ on 10/17/2012 2:15:55 PM , Rating: 3
This reminds me of the days when HDTVs first came out, and some stores tried to sell "EDTVs" as HDTVs. They claimed that humans can't see the difference, blah blah blah.

Except one look at them and you could totally see the difference in resolution. Basically it was a bunch of nonsense marketing to explain away a real problem.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By Luticus on 10/17/2012 2:29:59 PM , Rating: 2
now THAT'S a good point!


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 4:37:32 PM , Rating: 2
LOL, I know... Scroll down, hit the start button, scroll up to close the app, scroll back down to get to the task bar, scroll back up to get to the top of the apps window, it pisses me off just typing it.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By Pirks on 10/18/2012 1:14:41 AM , Rating: 2
don't listen to this clueless troll, he hasn't even learned how to scale the remote session so that it fits the screen! the trick that windows live mesh was doing years ago

if you listen to him you will become as dumb as him! better learn how to use rdp properly people


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By NellyFromMA on 10/17/2012 2:44:26 PM , Rating: 2
Ya I'm inclined to think its more apt for phones but idk, I don't think its a death knell by any means. First hand interaction will help make a determination for me.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By kleinma on 10/17/2012 5:29:07 PM , Rating: 2
If you are remoting into other servers and need more height for desktop apps, then surface RT isn't for you anyway. Surface RT is for your parents and non tech savvy siblings and friends. Surface Pro (or any of the x86 based tablets with win8) is what you personally should be looking at. Those all will have higher resolution, and probably run the various software it sounds like you would need to run.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 5:33:55 PM , Rating: 2
I was just referring to the fact that the 768 res on any device sucks, other than something as small as a phone of course. Whether a laptop, surface, or other full size tablet, it needs higher res for usability not necessarily display quality.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By augiem on 10/17/2012 3:35:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would have liked to at least seen 1080P on the Surface though. I'm assuming the Pro goes full HD depending on manufacturer?


According to Wikipedia, the pro will have a 1920x1080 screen. It will also be about 33% heavier, thicker, and cost quite a bit more. As long as you don't expect it do everything your laptop does AND be as light and thin as an iPad, you should be happy.


By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:31:57 PM , Rating: 2
1080p will be great on it. Don't expect more, DPI scaling in Windows won't really allow for much greater pixel density without things looking really bad.

Hopefully that's something they address in Windows 9 so that we can start to get "retina" style displays in more laptops and desktop monitors.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:20:01 PM , Rating: 2
It is a night and day difference. I want high DPI on ALL my monitors, desktop included.

Maybe an eye check for you is in order? ;)


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By augiem on 10/17/2012 6:45:14 PM , Rating: 2
GPU's are also not ready for these massive resolutions, especially in the small form factors. The new Macbooks are really slow when redrawing large portions of the screen and that's just in 2D. 3D would be even worse. Higher resolutions are definitely coming to all form factors, but the technology is not even close to ready yet.

Imagine a 24" monitor at the equivalent of the iPad 3's display density of 264 ppi. That would put the display at 5067x3800 with a total of 19,257,512 pixels. That's 6.1X the number of pixels you have to push every frame compared to the iPad. The graphics hardware is just not capable of that yet. And the iPad isn't even the highest density display on the market. LG has a 5", 440 ppi display, which would be a hilarious 8445x6334, 53.5 megapixel screen.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By augiem on 10/17/2012 6:46:44 PM , Rating: 2
Clarification:
which at 24" would be a hilarious 8445x6334, 53.5 megapixel screen.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 7:32:39 PM , Rating: 2
I agree there is some amount of overkill, but the 1366x768 is way too low. If you like 1366x768 screen in a $600 tablet, by all means, buy it.


By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 9:11:00 PM , Rating: 2
Absolutely, but it will happen, it is inevitable.

It makes sense that the push for high DPI has happened in the order that it has, first with smartphones, then with tablets, and now with laptops. A 13" retina MBP is looking like it will be announced soon, and it makes sense given that any modern IGP or discreet laptop GPU can drive a desktop at 2560x1600 reasonably well (2x the current 13" MBP res). It won't be perfect now but Haswell and next year's mobile GPUs will make today's issues much less severe.

Desktop monitors are next, it'll happen in a couple years. They don't even need to be at the same DPI as a smartphone or tablet since they're going to be at 2'-3' away, not under a foot away.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By DFranch on 10/17/2012 5:27:39 PM , Rating: 2
Retina display is totally unnecessary. My computer has a 24" monitor with 1680x1050 resolution. Why do I need a 1600x900 resolution on a 10.6 inch screen. It's a waste of money. Hell, my 55" TV is only 1080p resolution, and my desktop looks great on it.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By Commodus on 10/17/2012 1:34:00 PM , Rating: 5
So much deliberate (not just accidental) misinformation in this one post.

Just a reminder: mobile Flash is dead. It's not coming back. Even Windows 8 limits its use of desktop Flash in the Metro UI to a handful of chosen sites to keep the usual Flash bugs, slowdowns, security issues and battery woes to a minimum.

Have you tried Documents To Go and the iWork suite, or are you just trying to scare people away from anything attached to Apple?

Please show me where Apple is purposefully leaking information to the feds, and if you can point to that, also show me that Google and Microsoft aren't involved. Apple is not tracking your movements in any personally identifiable way -- and that's an odd statement to make when Apple deliberately turned off UDID for privacy reasons and doesn't run services like Google's Latitude.

Just to cap this all off, it's fairly clear you've been putting on the blinders a bit yourself. The "potential to run Win apps of all sorts" only applies if you buy an x86-based Windows 8 tablet, remember... and that costs a lot more than $499. The Windows Store? It's a closed store that requires Microsoft approval for apps. Meanwhile, you're convinced (just as Microsoft wants you to be) that tablet users absolutely need to run Office for it to be considered a viable tablet, but yet assume iPad users do nothing but play games. Stereotype much? I know quite a few corporate and government iPad deployments, and Office is nowhere to be seen. If you're so adamant about resisting giving in to one ecosystem, you should be smart enough to know that you don't need a Microsoft app suite on a Microsoft tablet running Microsoft software to get things done.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By NellyFromMA on 10/17/2012 1:54:00 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, we capitulated to offer access to a version of our software on the iPad and honestly, its very difficult to do anything even remotely as efficient workflow wise as on a PC. It is somewhat relegated to lesser work. Trust me, we've tried it a bunch of ways... I don't know of any real productivity related software for the iPad that comes close to a comparable desktop offering. It's the nature of the beast I think. Couple that with the fact that the vast majority of iPad users balk at the notion of using a keyboard or mouse wit it and it becomes clearer its truly a consumption device, and even Apple promotes that as true.

Will the Surface RT change that? Idk about that. Consumption devices are fine, most people could benefit from therm (although the iPad dimensions are extremely bulky IMO for any long substantial field work).

What I do think is the Surface will be successful for many of the reasons the iPad was. Will it be the next iPad? I doubt it. MS doesn't pander to fans, its too busy running the worlds tech infrastructure. however, there's TONS of appeal from the business perspective and that may be enough to carry it through iteration 1.

We're excited here to get our hands on one.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By othercents on 10/17/2012 2:05:57 PM , Rating: 2
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/06/22/deve...

No Flash is not the same as Flash limited to certain websites. In most cases I don't want to see flash on sites that could harm my devices, but I do want to see it from reputable sites.

quote:
Have you tried Documents To Go and the iWork suite, or are you just trying to scare people away from anything attached to Apple?


Yes, and after I send the files to clients they seam to always have issues with formatting. I have to redo the documents on my laptop just to send them out. Hopefully I won't have to do my work twice with the Slate.

quote:
The Windows Store? It's a closed store that requires Microsoft approval for apps.


And iTunes is open requiring no approval? Metro UI should allow developers who have created Android and iPad apps to quickly convert them to Metro UI. Number of apps should become negligible quickly. However I switched away from the iPhone to get better integration with what I use and get away from having needless number of unused apps on my phone.

quote:
I know quite a few corporate and government iPad deployments, and Office is nowhere to be seen.


I do to and our users use Citrix to connect to a remote desktop to use Office. We found on average the iPad users take 20% longer to do their work, however that is OK since they can take their tablets anywhere and work an extra 2-4 hours a day for us. Only salaried employees are allowed to have iPads.

There was an uptick in number of Macs and iPads in the office at one point, however as people found that they couldn't do everything they wanted to do we started to see more people just quit using those devices and reverting back to what worked. In a business environment it needs to be seamless and work without a bunch of extra steps. For consumers the iPad or Android will probably be good. For Universities though you might find Windows 8 RT devices a better match than iPads.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By Pirks on 10/18/2012 2:52:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
if you buy an x86-based Windows 8 tablet, remember... and that costs a lot more than $499
hey stop lying troll! grrr :E

don't trust this troll, x86 tablets cost not more than $499, here's the proof:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/acer-iconia...


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By Cheesew1z69 on 10/21/2012 1:09:31 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Last week, Acer announced its Iconia W700 tablet. This device's Intel Ivy Bridge processors will give it quite a bit of processing power, but its $800 starting price tag and 2.3 pound weight make it more of an Ultrabook replacement than a stand-in for an Android or iOS-based tablet . That task is best left to the Iconia W510, an Intel Atom-based tablet that still runs the full version of Windows 8, but weighs 1.32 pounds and starts at $499.99. Like the W700, it will launch on November 9 shortly after Windows 8.
DERP! I AM PIRKS! I THINK I KNOW EVERYTHING!

They aren't all starting at $499 you fucking retard...

The proof here is proving you wrong, as usual and even in the link YOU provided.... and you call others clueless trolls.... Wow... perhaps you need to take some reading comprehension skills or you just willfuly and ignorantly pass anything that doesn't support your position. Seems to happen with you and a few others here quite often...


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By NellyFromMA on 10/17/12, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By NellyFromMA on 10/22/12, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By tayb on 10/17/2012 1:57:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No. That's crap. That retina display is great on anything Apple allows you to see.


Movies and games?? Text sharpness? Clarity?

quote:
No Flash for example.


I may be wrong here but I do not believe IE10 for Windows RT supports flash.

quote:
And nothing anywhere CLOSE to Office.


Google Docs?? The most recent update allows you to edit through the app...

quote:
Also, Apple leaks your user info to federal authorities and tracks your movements, has an inconvenient sub-par mapping system and literally ZERO room for customization.


No comment on the leaking of information but how do you think Google provides traffic information? Magic? What mapping system will MS be providing with Windows RT? It doesn't even have GPS.

quote:
MS has allowed in the past hacking of their systems, including a keyboard and Office plus the potential to run Win apps of all sorts and all critics can question is the resolution? Seriously?


This is Windows RT, not Windows 8. The only apps you'll be installing will come from the Windows Store. Hackable? iOS isn't exactly challenging to jailbreak...

I view these tablets as toys. At $500 I would rather buy a toy with more apps. Alternatively, I would rather spend $200-$300 on a toy that still has more apps.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By NellyFromMA on 10/17/2012 2:00:11 PM , Rating: 2
As long as you don't care about the overall quality of that toy, do what ya gotta do.

The quality isn't the same for each of those, however, so its not gonna be that easy for many people to decide that way in those simplified terms.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By 91TTZ on 10/17/2012 2:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
These products are vastly overpriced for their market and their intended purpose. Keep in mind that you can get a low-end REAL laptop for less money than that if you want to do real productivity.

This is going to bomb.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By geddarkstorm on 10/17/2012 2:26:23 PM , Rating: 2
Also, the fact the 32GB Nexus 7 is coming out at a price around $250 seriously undercuts the Surface at its current price point.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By Enigma2012 on 10/17/12, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By tayb on 10/17/2012 2:41:03 PM , Rating: 2
Have you ever heard of Google Docs? I have two Windows machines, a Macbook Air, and an iPad. I have Office installed on every one of those except the iPad... and I never use it. So long as I have an internet connection I have no use for Office. And even without an internet connection I can still view my files and edit word documents (editing is web only).

Can I bring an iPad into an office and truly be productive? No, probably not, not unless the only thing I do all day is simple tasks. Then again, I think the exact same thing of Surface RT. What can I accomplish with Surface RT that I can't accomplish on an iPad or an Android tablet? I'm limited to Metro apps only.

The Surface Pro is a whole different game. I am actually interested in the Surface Pro. I could conceivably replace my Macbook Air AND my iPad (travel devices) with a single device. That's compelling. Surface RT? Not so much. It can replace my iPad but it can't replace my Macbook Air.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By nikon133 on 10/17/2012 5:18:22 PM , Rating: 2
Well that's your scenario.

My wife (working at local Uni) wants to be able to review doc/ppt on tablet, do some small edits/comments (for lectures, students' PhDs, MDs, assignments) and so far wasn't happy with anything else she could find for iOS and Android, online or offline.

If Office RT comes closer to Office 2010 than currently available apps like Documents ToGo, Quick Office etc... it will be her dream come true, and will completely dwarf importance of uber-high resolution on tablet.

In addition... I'm perfectly happy with my Transformers 1280x800 resolution. While I agree such resolution should have disappeared from 13"+ laptops, I think it is still perfectly acceptable on 10". I'm using my Asus Transformer a lot and yet to come to situation when I'd think gee, I need higher resolution. On my list of desired improvements on my current tablet, higher resolution is somewhere at the bottom - if on list at all. I don't have full HD movies to play on tablet (I'm converting my BDs to 720p for carrying to vacations etc., and everything else is also peaking at 720p). 3D games on tablets are still well behind consoles, not to mention good PC, and I don't think higher resolution would improve actually important things in 3D, rendering quality; I don't even know if 3D games can run on native resolution on tablets. 2D games, sure. But for me, mostly irrelevant.

So you see, my scenario is a bit different.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By nafhan on 10/17/2012 2:20:50 PM , Rating: 2
Not really... It boils down to this: you've got something slightly more functional (and slightly less in some respects) trying to compete on features with an extremely popular device. To really compete they need to be cheaper or totally outclass the competition in some way that's important to the consumer. They're doing neither. I also kind of get the impression that you might be confusing Surface and Surface Pro.

Surface Pro, even though it's pricey, DOES totally outclass the competition by working as a true PC replacement in a tablet form factor. There's nothing else like it, and I hope it does well. Vanilla Surface, I think, has priced itself out of the market whether or not you think that's fair.

As an aside, I'm also kind of interested in the touchscreen, Win 8 ultra-books coming out soon. I've messed with a couple of them... being able to use touch when it makes sense and a mouse and keyboard the rest of the time is very intuitive.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:01:52 PM , Rating: 2
Flash on mobile is dead. Adobe got a second chance on Android and they still gave up on it. It doesn't matter, Flash video isn't needed given that the web already supported non-Flash video for mobile devices years ago. Total non-issue.

You can edit Office docs with various applications and view doc and xls files natively on the iPad. Office is also coming to iOS. That said, obviously editing Office docs is best on a real laptop. Windows RT isn't going to change that with the Metro version of Office.

As for true horsepower, in what way is a Tegra 3 competitive with an A5X or an A6? A late 2012 tablet should have much better specs than one released in early 2012, not worse specs.

Resolution, horsepower, and the best tablet applications, that's what an iPad gets you.


By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:06:20 PM , Rating: 2
All that said, the Surface Pro looks like a legit alternative to ultrabooks. That is something to get very very excited about. I'll probably pick one up when it gets Haswell. The ARM Surface offers nothing absolutely compelling against the iPad though. Slower specs, inferior display, and an app market with a very long way to catch up.

Bring on the Surface Pro!


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 4:10:05 PM , Rating: 2
In the workplace is where Surface has a chance to thrive. All of the enterpise apps that companies use can run on a Win8 tablet, and no iPad, or Android can match that. Being able to edit office files is not like the real office. It's not even close to 10% of the real office. To do real work in most companies you absolutely have to be running Windows x86.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:15:46 PM , Rating: 2
I think this is where Surface Pro will come into play. We'll see if the ARM Surface running RT fills in this gap, but I'm not sure.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By retrospooty on 10/17/2012 4:34:54 PM , Rating: 2
Ya, I dont see much point in RT. There are better tablets out there, if you are going to go the MS route and use it for work, the x86/pro is the way to go. If work isnt an issue and you just want a tablet, iPad or Android seems alot better. IF Surface were cheap maybe, but not at the prices above. Forget it.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By TakinYourPoints on 10/17/2012 4:13:46 PM , Rating: 1
Flash on Surface is irrelevant anyway given that it doesn't even run it. So yeah, non-issue.

I thought people stopped using the "it doesn't run Flash" ages ago when Adobe threw in the towel. Some people haven't caught up yet.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By macca007 on 10/18/2012 2:46:40 AM , Rating: 2
No you have it wrong about people stopped using flash, Until all the pr0n sites update their flash videos, Flash will be "needed" for quite some time. ;)


By TakinYourPoints on 10/18/2012 2:56:02 AM , Rating: 2
Those also started using Flash alternatives for mobile years ago ;)


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By TheJokker on 10/18/2012 2:58:18 PM , Rating: 2
funny you should mention horsepower...

The Surface Pro will make the iPad look like the silly little toy that it is. There is considerable speculation that it will be one of the first devices with the haswell cpu so it will have excellent battery life and a overwhelming advantage over the iPad in cpu and graphic power.

Apple has a long history of bringing innovative devices to market and than losing the race because they cannot keep up with other companies that continue to update and improve the design.

In five years Microsoft/Intel tablets will get cheaper and cheaper and more and more powerful. Nobody will be using Apples except the technically challanged...


By TakinYourPoints on 10/18/2012 3:42:22 PM , Rating: 2
The Surface Pro is competing with notebooks, not tablets, just based on price alone. They will certainly get cheaper and more powerful as time goes on, but the same thing will also happen with current tablets in terms of price and performance. We'll see what happens, but this is going to be all about ease of use and execution first.

quote:
Nobody will be using Apples except the technically challanged...


And this is why they will continue to have a giant chunk of the market. Most people are not technically inclined, and even those that are want something that just works and does the job quickly.

Being "technically inclined" is also such a BS positive attribute for tech. I used to write custom config.sys and batch files to run games well back in the 90s. Now I have systems like Steam to handle all patching and cloud backups of my saves. The 90s method required far more technical knowledge, it doesn't mean that it was better.


RE: Apple has people hypnotized
By TheJokker on 10/18/2012 2:58:18 PM , Rating: 2
funny you should mention horsepower...

The Surface Pro will make the iPad look like the silly little toy that it is. There is considerable speculation that it will be one of the first devices with the haswell cpu so it will have excellent battery life and a overwhelming advantage over the iPad in cpu and graphic power.

Apple has a long history of bringing innovative devices to market and than losing the race because they cannot keep up with other companies that continue to update and improve the design.

In five years Microsoft/Intel tablets will get cheaper and cheaper and more and more powerful. Nobody will be using Apples except the technically challanged...


Overpriced
By Voldenuit on 10/17/12, Rating: -1
"Well, there may be a reason why they call them 'Mac' trucks! Windows machines will not be trucks." -- Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer














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