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Scratched discs from the Xbox 360 (Source: The Consumerist)
Microsoft sued for its Xbox 360 making rings, but not of the red variety

On the heels of reports showing up to one-third of Xbox 360 consoles suffer a hardware failure, and the Microsoft action of extending the warranty to up to three years in cases of the Red Ring of Death, it is not at all surprising to learn that a class action lawsuit has been filed against the Redmond-based console maker.

The lawsuit is not for the dreaded Red Ring of Death, but rather for the console’s rare but nasty habit of scratching discs. As Joystiq reports, the lawsuit contends that the plaintiffs in the case "have been damaged in that their game discs were destroyed by the Xbox 360 during reasonable, foreseeable, normal, and intended use... The Xbox 360 was negligently designed and manufactured in that the Console's laser disc reading assembly contacts and scratches the video game discs during normal and intended operation and use."

The issue of the Xbox 360 scratching discs even when the console is unmoved first caught the attention or European consumer watchdogs after a special feature ran on Dutch TV show Kassa. At the time of the complaint, Microsoft said to 1UP, "We are working in an open dialogue with Commissioner Kuneva to clarify our position and all the efforts we are taking across the EU, and in fact globally, to address any consumer concerns. As we have said previously, there is no widespread issue regarding scratched discs as is alleged by Kassa. That said, we encourage any Xbox customer who believes that their discs have been scratched in the same manner as identified by Kassa, to contact us."

Microsoft’s statement continued, "We will examine the console and make appropriate repairs if necessary in order to restore the console to full working order, as well as provide customers with information on how to obtain replacement discs should they need them."

Filed in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. by Jorge Brouwer, a Broward County resident who bought an Xbox 360 in 2006, the lawsuit seeks five million dollars in damages for the scratched game discs. Microsoft has yet to respond.

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Agree with lawsuit
By azrael201 on 7/12/2007 8:50:26 AM , Rating: 3
what was the $20 replacement deal again?

i don't know if a lawsuit is necessary, but if that is what it takes to make MS address this issue then by all means sign me up. It may seem excessive but I do believe that MS should replace the games that were rendered coasters by their defected system. My second XBOX360 did this, and even though they assured me all replacement 360's were new it came with all these black marks and a general sense of dirtiness. It ate two discs and I still am unable to access the final level of Dead Rising because of the beautiful concentric circles it made on the disc.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By azrael201 on 7/12/2007 8:52:17 AM , Rating: 1
i don't agree with the 5 million...i didn't even see that. maybe that's for everyone who has had a scratched disc from a xbox360 sent in for repair with that problem?

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 9:14:50 AM , Rating: 5
The math probably goes like this:

Disc replacement: $200
Plaintiff benefits: $1000
Attorney fees: $4,998,800

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By FITCamaro on 7/12/2007 9:20:52 AM , Rating: 2
Well remember his pain and suffering for not being able to play his games.

I agree that Microsoft should replace games that the console scratches. But $5 million for it? No.

It figures that the lawsuit would start in Florida. There's more lawyers in Florida than ants. Probably someone like Morgan or another ambulance chaser.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By Martimus on 7/12/2007 9:29:23 AM , Rating: 5
It is a class action lawsuit. That means there are a large number of plaintiffs. Maybe even 5,000 or 10,000 plaintiffs, with each getting $50 to $100 for their trouble.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 9:44:54 AM , Rating: 1
Of course I'm being sarcastic with the figures above. But the reality is that the law firm involved would expect to pocket "attorney fees" in the neighborhood of millions of dollars.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By Christopher1 on 7/17/2007 5:24:31 AM , Rating: 2
That's why whenever I have had to use the services of a lawyer, I tell them "5% for you, at most!" and they will take it or I will go find someone else!

People have to start getting seriously non-negotiable with the prices that they are willing to pay lawyers for their services (which usually, they are not doing that much work coming from my experience as a paralegal).

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By redog on 7/12/2007 10:14:38 AM , Rating: 3
Already used this in another thread but still applies:

Take the number of xboxs in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C.

A * B * C = X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

But i sersisouly think think this is another by product of overheating. The DVD drive sits right above that wonderful little hot potato that is the heatsink.

It can't be a good idea to constantly heat up the DVDs to something that probably is with in specs but still not considered a good idea. It probably makes them more susceptible to contact inside the drive that is leading the drive leaving wonderfully etched rings.


RE: Agree with lawsuit
By Martimus on 7/12/2007 2:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
I would definitely rate this up for the Fight Club reference if I didn't already comment on this. Reading that made me smile.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By webdawg77 on 7/12/2007 8:55:59 AM , Rating: 2

The following game titles are currently available for this program:

* Crackdown™
* Fuzion Frenzy 2
* Gears Of War®
* Halo® 2
* Kameo™: Elements of Power™
* Ninety Nine Nights™
* Perfect Dark Zero™
* Project Gotham Racing® 3
* Viva Piñata™
* Xbox Live® Arcade Unplugged Vol. 1

Apparently, Dead Rising isn't included in the list.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By omnicronx on 7/12/2007 9:21:09 AM , Rating: 2
what about all EA games.. i had to return nhl07 3 times because the disc was unbalanced, which didnt mix well with my already screwed 360. Fifa 07 also i had to return after one use as it was not balanced right either.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By webdawg77 on 7/12/2007 9:22:48 AM , Rating: 2
List is straight from

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By A5 on 7/12/2007 9:24:11 AM , Rating: 1
MS only covers MS-published games. It's up to other publishers to have their own programs.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By nemrod on 7/12/2007 9:46:55 AM , Rating: 2
"MS only covers MS-published games. It's up to other publishers to have their own programs."

why should other publishers have to pay for defective hardware?

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By othercents on 7/12/2007 10:31:05 AM , Rating: 2
Microsoft doesn't own the rights to the other games therefor they can't replace the discs. However your right that the game manufacturer should have to pay for Microsoft's mistake. It is very possible that people will have to return the disc to the manufacturer for a new one and the manufacturer will get compensation from Microsoft for discs that have concentric rings on them.


RE: Agree with lawsuit
By SiN on 7/12/2007 9:39:18 AM , Rating: 3
i have to say, did the console scratch the disc or did u knock the console while reading the disc? my 1st console scratched one of my games, but i hold my hands up and i'm telling u i knocked the system (was only a nudge) but i still think it should have been built without this problem. I'm doubius as to wether people nudged, or tried to move the console while it was reading a disk, an now their bitter enough to call it a system problem rather thn admit they are the ones at fault.

PS, i'm on my 3rd console. RROD only happened once and i'm happy with the customers service i recieved *offtopic, when did any other console manufacturer give a 3 year warrenty, and although 360 seems like the most buggy system, there have been others before it just as bad. Anyone have to replace their PS2 Lazer Lense?

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By SiN on 7/12/2007 9:41:10 AM , Rating: 2
sorry 4 the double post, before any one says it, i know the extended warrenty only covers RROD

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By hrah20 on 7/12/2007 11:44:32 AM , Rating: 2
A 5 million dollar lawsuit seems like too much, but like you I agree that microsoft has to adress these problems sooner rather than later, my xbox 360 replacement came with smudges and finger prints, I belive that my xbox is a refurbished one, I also have an xbox 360 elite hope this console last a little longer than the other.

RE: Agree with lawsuit
By viperpa on 7/13/2007 1:04:30 AM , Rating: 2
Had the same problem when playing my Gears of War cd. The cd got scratched by the machine but was able to use scratch remover and the game was still playable. I think if Microsoft created a faulty machine then they should own up to the problem. Not let the problem slide hoping the complaints will all go away.

By Master Kenobi on 7/12/2007 8:37:02 AM , Rating: 2
Go figure. Why is it that these assinine lawsuits always start in either California, or Florida?

Frankly since Microsoft can repair/replace the console and they can request new disc's I don't see the reason for a lawsuit. Stupid lawyer happy americans (I'm an american).

RE: Florida
By h0kiez on 7/12/2007 9:08:42 AM , Rating: 2
My only issue is that $20 is a ludicrous price for a replacement. For games that have been out for 6 months, you could go to the store and buy it new for that price sometimes. Stamping a disc costs <$1 and for scratches that are the console's fault, this shouldn't be a profit center for MS. Replacements should cost no more than $10 including shipping.

RE: Florida
By Krashnicki on 7/12/2007 9:24:01 AM , Rating: 3
These damages are caused by a defect in the console. Microsoft should be fully responsible. At the very most consumers should have to pay to ship the old disc back.

RE: Florida
By Flunk on 7/12/2007 9:35:04 AM , Rating: 2
It doesn't matter the cause. If Microsoft doesn't let you back up the discs they should be replacing them at cost for any reason.

RE: Florida
By h0kiez on 7/12/2007 10:11:02 AM , Rating: 2
They don't let you play backup discs?

Don't tell my 360 that ;-)

RE: Florida
By webdawg77 on 7/12/2007 9:59:12 AM , Rating: 2
I completely agree. But, I'm not going to sit around for 6 months or so waiting to see if M$ decides that they'll replace the discs for free. I'd rather pay $20 now and enjoy my game and get the money back later. It might be retroactive later, like the fees for fixing the RRoD consoles.

BTW, I am on my 2nd console since the first did RRoD. However, I think it was also the first console that ended up scratching the disc.

Also, I know it was the disc having the problem and not the drive since a rented GoW disc works fine everytime along with other games like Burnout and CoD.

And no, I did not move the 360 with the game disc in while playing or at any other time. Both consoles have always been in the horizontal position. When moved (rearranging), the games were taken out.

RE: Florida
By InsaneScientist on 7/12/2007 4:03:35 PM , Rating: 2
Go figure. Why is it that these assinine lawsuits always start in either California, or Florida?

Well, I can't answer the Florida part, since I don't live there, but as far as California is concerned I can tell you that, for having roughly 12% of the entire country's population living in this state, the number of morons we have here is highly disproportionate with the population.

RE: Florida
By Master Kenobi on 7/12/2007 4:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, I can agree with that. California does seem to have a very high ratio of dumbass to total population in that state.

RE: Florida
By bryanW1995 on 7/12/2007 8:39:02 PM , Rating: 2
my sister lives in cali. she is a little bit different than she was before she left, but she was always a little bit off. I think that california is a magnet for weirdos.

RE: Florida
By rcc on 7/13/2007 5:48:12 PM , Rating: 2
Naw, its just that the weather is CA is good enough that you see them more.

By rcc on 7/12/2007 1:04:52 PM , Rating: 2
This would seem to be a manufacturer issue with the drive. Has anyone heard if MS is talking to them yet. Re fixes, and/or the lawsuit?

By omnicronx on 7/12/2007 2:52:25 PM , Rating: 2
this only occurred in certain dvd drives and as far as i know and they no longer use the dvd drives in question. Mine has this issue and it is a rev4 bought in may 06 with a hitachi drive if that helps ;)

called it
By omnicronx on 7/12/2007 9:18:35 AM , Rating: 3
Heh weird thing is i asked a few days ago in the post about the RROD why we havnt heard more about scratched discs (which i have a problem with) considering i have actually heard alot more scratched disc problems than RROD within my friends.
seems like its only an issue with certain dvdroms though .. mainly hitachi drives as they dont have the foam stoppers inside the dvd case to stop the discs from hitting the laser head.
best part of this whole thing is that you can fix it yourself with a little surgery. I found this site
and soon realized i had the same problem.

I feel sorry for the guy, but i think it is a bit excessive.
7 or 8 of my games are unplayable now and although they were all scratched, i knew my 360 was the culprit.. so i took certain precautions. If the guy didn't want his discs scratched, he didn't have to play them in a broken xbox.
he should have either got his xbox fixed by warranty
unless of course he voided his warranty.. by opening it up.. in that case he could have looked for a way to solve his problem like i did.

$20 for a replacement!?
By Erudite on 7/12/2007 9:41:28 AM , Rating: 2
Am I understanding correctly that an XBOX360 is scratching a $60 game disc (a known problem), and they're charging you a third of the price of the original game to replace the disc?

I'd be irate! I suppose maybe I can see shipping charges, but not nearly $20 worth. If you have that problem and you replace three games, you could have bought a new game for the price of replacements that Microsoft's console is responsible for damaging.

Maybe it's a good thing I didn't get a 360 yet...

RE: $20 for a replacement!?
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 9:46:32 AM , Rating: 1
I agree, that $20 seems excessive. It seems like there may be some profit being made in replacing discs, not sure though.

A little excessive but necessary
By webdawg77 on 7/12/2007 8:33:47 AM , Rating: 2
I think that $5 million is a little excessive, but I know how this guy feels. My GoW disc was rendered almost completely Unusable. I have since sent it off to M$ for the $20 replacement. Hopefully, M$ will step up like they did for the RRoD issue.

By Spivonious on 7/12/2007 9:27:27 AM , Rating: 2
Being a former employee of Gamestop, I can say truthfully that if anyone brought in a game with circular scratches like that we'd let them exchange it for the same title. No $20 "replacement charge." Maybe it's different in Europe.

I think this is warranted
By y2chuck on 7/12/2007 10:14:24 AM , Rating: 2
I have a TV/DVD combo and the DVD player in it does the same thing. It's only ruined 2 DVD and I just stopped using it after I noticed the rings.

Personally, if I had a 360 and this happened and MS was going to replace the game for free (including shipping) I probably wouldn't care.

I think this is warranted, however since an issue like this most certainly should have been caught in quality control.

By OxBow on 7/12/2007 12:02:48 PM , Rating: 2
The suit asks for $5,000,000 in damages, which is just the lawyers method of covering all bases. The claim will have no real relation to the actual settlment and/or fine. All that will be handled in a hearings after the merits of the case are discussed.

The key issue here is whether Microsofts product is damaging the plaintiffs property when used as designed. This is pretty simple to show and should be reproducable (I can just see the jury playing GOW deathmatches trying to create an independent, reproducable result). Microsoft claims that it's terms cover how replacements are handled. The real issue that will be debated is whether their small print contract terms on replacements are fair or not. That's a good question and could have been conceded by MS or decided by a judge or jury. Since MS hardly ever concedes anything, a lawsuit seems logical.

I can see it now.....
By marvdmartian on 7/12/2007 3:47:13 PM , Rating: 2
Xbox360 gaming system........$700

New game disk............$60

Having your new gaming system scratch your favorite game, suing for $5 million, and settling with the "evil empire" of corporations for $2 million.........


(please note, I'm not a gamer, and honestly don't know, or even care, how much a new Xbox 360 costs.....I just pulled that number out of my ass!)

By joemoedee on 7/12/2007 3:48:22 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, it sounds like a lot, but if you spread it across every Xbox 360 owner, take out legal fees... You may end up with a free copy of Fuzion Frenzy for filling out a piece of paper.

At least now MS admitting that every single Xbox 360 is faulty...

What a fool
By mdogs444 on 7/12/07, Rating: -1
RE: What a fool
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 9:23:31 AM , Rating: 2
You might want to read up on the facts regarding the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit. There is a lot of misinformation out there about that.

RE: What a fool
By Master Kenobi on 7/12/2007 9:37:34 AM , Rating: 2
TomZ, I would like to point out that while the Coffee was "excessively hot" according to the temperature. I seriously doubt you will find people crying about their Coffee being "too hot". If it's hot you let it sit in the cup holder for a few minutes while it cools off. It's really not a big deal.

The fact of the matter here, is that this lady was reckless in her posession of the coffee. She did not use a cup holder (which would have spared her from any burns), she put the damn thing between her legs WHILE DRIVING. Which causes distractions and possibly get her into an accident. Yea, so McDonald's serves coffee hot enough to scald you, so what? You don't have to drink it the second they hand it to you, you sure as hell don't need to stick it between your legs and spill it all over yourself.

To be honest, the whole trial was a circus. Consumer negligence and stupidity does not fly. What they basically ruled was that the Coffee would cause 3rd degree burns if spilled on ones self within the first 3 minutes of having it (It will cool rapidly once you get it), therefore McDonalds is at fault because they served something that when used in an incorrect manner can cause serious injury . No Shit?

RE: What a fool
By TomZ on 7/12/07, Rating: 0
RE: What a fool
By Master Kenobi on 7/12/07, Rating: -1
RE: What a fool
By dispo on 7/12/07, Rating: 0
RE: What a fool
By FITCamaro on 7/12/07, Rating: -1
RE: What a fool
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 12:27:32 PM , Rating: 1
She sued McDonald's only after they refused to pay her medical bills. If they had paid the medical bills, she wouldn't have sued them. I don't see any information anywhere that she is a "greedy bitch." Where did you get that from?

RE: What a fool
By sviola on 7/12/2007 12:51:01 PM , Rating: 2
I don't agree that McDonald's should be considered liable for her spilling coffee over her. After all, she wasn't holding the cup correctly and was driving at the same time. (and if the coffee was sold cold she would have complained about it).

But hey, there are worst cases, like the lady who sued the microwave oven manufacturers because there was no warning on the manual that she couldn't dry her cat in it as she used to do on the regular oven.

RE: What a fool
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 1:13:30 PM , Rating: 2
The jury didn't hold McDonald's liable for her spilling coffee on herself. They found McDonald's liable for serving their coffee at a dangerously hot temperature, some 20 degrees above the temperature other restaurants do, which creased a danger for the customers. McDonald's also knew about the problem, based on a large number of customer complaints, and completely ignored the problem. That's called negligence.

RE: What a fool
By Parhel on 7/12/2007 5:51:51 PM , Rating: 2
Any regular coffee drinker can vouch for that. McDonalds coffee was served at a ridiculously hot temperature until after that lawsuit came out. Coffee is supposed to be served hot, not boiling. McDonalds was at fault in that situation and refused to even respond to her until she took it to court.

RE: What a fool
By dosun on 7/12/2007 1:29:44 PM , Rating: 2
The lady was wearing sweatpants at the time, but that is irrelevant to the case. The coffee was hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns if it made contact with the skin. It didn't matter what part of the body it was. If she spilled it on her hand would you say she should have been wearing fireproof gloves?

RE: What a fool
By sviola on 7/12/2007 12:08:04 PM , Rating: 3
Reasonable people also don't drive with hot coffee between their legs.

RE: What a fool
By omnicronx on 7/12/07, Rating: -1
RE: What a fool
By sviola on 7/12/2007 12:44:27 PM , Rating: 2
That really brings the expression "fond of coffee" to a new level... :D

RE: What a fool
By rcc on 7/12/2007 12:53:03 PM , Rating: 3
and this makes you reasonable?

RE: What a fool
By timmiser on 7/12/2007 1:11:33 PM , Rating: 3
That is exactly the point.

Reasonable people shouldn't be driving and drinking hot coffee at the same time. Bumps happen. Those paper cups fail. Etc.

Or is it:

A reasonable resturant shouldn't serve extemely hot coffee to their drive thru customers because they know that events while driving can cause coffee to spill on the driver. The point is that the restuarant has to realize that with 90 billion served, someone, somewhere is going to spill it on themselves. They should know that and therefore they should make sure their coffee is at a temperature that will not cause serious burn injuries when this does happen.

The high dollar amount of the lawsuit is very necessary with these companies as a deterrent to make these restuarants take action to keep it from happening again.

RE: What a fool
By rcc on 7/13/2007 5:52:11 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, but then you lose the business of those people that wait til they get to the office to drink their coffee. Because by then it's cold. Or cool. Or just not warm enough.

RE: What a fool
By DN on 7/12/2007 1:39:26 PM , Rating: 1
At first, I was one of those people that thought this was the most ridiculous suit. However, over time and with a bit more thought, I came to realize what this suit was REALLY about:

"How hot is too hot?"

People do dumb things all the time, there is no question about it. Is this lady a dumbass for having placed a coffee between her legs as she drives? Yes. Is she guilty of this coffee having spilled on her? Yes, no doubt. However, should coffee be so hot that it seriously damages someone's body if and when an accident (stupid or not) happens? I think this is where you need to draw the line. Imagine that you didn't do anything as silly as this lady did, but a McDonald coffee ended up landing on your child for whatever reason, would you prefer that it was "hot" or "SCALDING" coffee to be in that cup? I think if any of us HAD to make that choice, it would be obvious what choice we would make. Put your finger in hot coffee, put your finger in SCALDING coffee, there's a BIG difference, you'd be surprised. So, as much as McDonald's IS NOT the reason for her stupidity, McDonald's IS responsible for the "amount" of the damage that occured due to how hot they kept their coffee and really, coffee doesn't need to be SCALDING to be enjoyable, even if you like your coffee "hot".

RE: What a fool
By archermoo on 7/12/2007 6:59:43 PM , Rating: 2
As a note, a few things to clear up here. Mrs. Liebeck wasn't driving the car. Her grandson was. And at the time she spilled the coffee he had stopped the car so she could add sugar and cream to it.

McDonalds refused an early settlement offer of $20,000 to cover her medical bills.

She was awarded $200,000 in compensatory damages, reduced to $160,000 because the injuries were deemed by the jury to be 20% her fault.

She was initially awarded $2.7 million in punative damages, which the judge later reduced to $480,000, for a total award of $640,000. But that isn't the final amount either. She and McDonalds came to an undisclosed out of court settlement rather than go through the appeals process. So no one really knows what she got out of it.

Check out

RE: What a fool
By bkm32 on 7/12/2007 2:29:50 PM , Rating: 5
Can you idiots get past the McDonald's Hot Coffee Mod long enough to discuss the real issue here. The X360 is damaging discs, soemthing that is not covered in the new extended warranty. If I pay $60+ for a game, my $300+ next-gen console better not wreck it. If it does, the console manufacturer better pay up PDQ. Period.

The issue is who's responsible for faulty hardware, the consumer or the manufacturer?

"Discuss amongst yourselves."

RE: What a fool
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 2:56:09 PM , Rating: 1
Maybe the McDonald's lawsuit is more interesting to discuss than the XBOX 360 lawsuit.

RE: What a fool
By Tbonus on 7/12/2007 3:50:03 PM , Rating: 2
The issue is who's responsible for faulty hardware, the consumer or the manufacturer?
Thank you so much bkm32!!! The coffee issue has nothing to do with this, other than that there are people out there who want to blame everyone else for there stupidity.
There is one,and only one thing that needs to be discussed here "Am I to expect the product that I buy to work as advertised?" Answer, YES!

RE: What a fool
By xphile on 7/12/2007 8:14:23 PM , Rating: 3
Ok I have a solution to both your concerns. Remove drive mechanism from 360. Hardwire under car stereo unit. Hit eject button. Ejected 360 drive tray has cunning center hole designed especially to hold hot coffee cups and avoid nasty spill burns while at the same time completely removing any chance whatsoever of scratching your valuable game discs.

There both subjects now resolved. Next... :-)

RE: What a fool
By FITCamaro on 7/12/07, Rating: -1
RE: What a fool
By webdawg77 on 7/12/2007 9:27:23 AM , Rating: 2
According to the link above, she sued for $2.7 million but only received $480,000 in the end. The facts via the link are very interesting.

RE: What a fool
By sitong666 on 7/12/2007 9:34:55 AM , Rating: 3
Insanely hot? Surely it wasn't above 100 degrees?

RE: What a fool
By TomZ on 7/12/2007 9:38:25 AM , Rating: 1
Did you read the link I provided?

Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

Oh, BTW, this was three years after the lawsuit. Seems like McDonald's didn't learn their lesson.

RE: What a fool
By sviola on 7/12/2007 12:16:30 PM , Rating: 2
He might be talking about Celsius degrees...and 185F is around 100C.

RE: What a fool
By FITCamaro on 7/12/2007 12:22:15 PM , Rating: 2
100C is boiling hot.

RE: What a fool
By sviola on 7/12/2007 12:59:33 PM , Rating: 2
it's 85C actually. It's really hot, but at not boiling temperature.

RE: What a fool
By webdawg77 on 7/12/2007 12:22:42 PM , Rating: 1
Not quite. 100C is boiling thus 212F.

212 - 185 = 27

27 / 185 = 14.6% difference

RE: What a fool
By Hexxx on 7/13/2007 6:37:30 AM , Rating: 2
To give a percentage difference you would need to work it out on the Kelvin scale.

RE: What a fool
By webdawg77 on 7/13/2007 8:23:39 AM , Rating: 2
Why? I am comparing Fahrenheit to Fahrenheit. But to humor you.

K = 5/9 (F - 32) + 273

212F = 373K
185F = 358K

373 - 358 = 15
15/358 = 4.2%

C = 5/9(F - 32)

212F = 100C
185F = 85C

100 - 85 = 15
15/100 = 15%

With the Fahrenheit calculations above coming out to 14.6%, two of the 3 are very close to each other with the K calculation being way off. Why do I need to convert it to K to calculate the actual difference?

Although, C and K are more closely related in that 1 degree of change in C is roughly equal to 1 degree change in K, 1 degree change in F is smaller thus more precise. Therefore, I think the % change in F is a better comparison, and the results on the C scale even agree with it.

RE: What a fool
By webdawg77 on 7/13/2007 8:25:17 AM , Rating: 2
meant to be 15\85 = 17.6% for C

That's even more than the 14.6% for F.

But, since the temps were given in F, I compared in F.

DT, get an edit feature!

RE: What a fool
By TomZ on 7/13/2007 8:46:02 AM , Rating: 2
I think the point is that degrees F and degrees C are not absolute temperatures, therefore, calculating percentage differences is meaningless. That's because both systems are referenced to some arbitrary "zero."

Kelvin is absolute temperature. Therefore, if you are going to multiply, divide, or take percentages, that is what is typically used.

RE: What a fool
By webdawg77 on 7/13/2007 8:56:50 AM , Rating: 2
I see the point, but there aren't many absolutes in life. Everything is relative. And relative is good enough when you are comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

RE: What a fool
By webdawg77 on 7/12/2007 9:39:23 AM , Rating: 1
185 degrees.

RE: What a fool
By Topweasel on 7/12/2007 2:24:09 PM , Rating: 2
185 Fahrenheit. Not Celsius.

RE: What a fool
By XesBOX on 7/12/2007 3:00:19 PM , Rating: 2
After collapsing all the replies to you, I just have to say good job on derailing the topic! :D

its all perspective
By Screwballl on 7/12/07, Rating: -1
RE: its all perspective
By omnicronx on 7/12/2007 12:13:16 PM , Rating: 2
ok. i know the guy is a tard for suing but your comments are baseless..
1) its a disc, its going to get scratched so the lawsuit is baseless.

this point is moot, these discs were scratched in such a way that a perfect circle ring is made around the disc, thus this problem is distinguishable from normal user error scratching where the scratches could appear anywhere and certainly not in a perfect circle.

2) I am not even going to even say anything about this one, as i am not a lawyer.. but what are you basing this upon??

3)before you make such a comment you should do a little research as to why this happens. First off i would like to mention you can not replace the dvd drive without knowing a special key that is unique to your xbox and is usually an option for most people. Microsoft bought an inferior product in the Hitachi line of dvd drives (could be others too), they have a grand total of 0 pads inside the dvd casing that protects the discs from hitting the laser or other components.

On the other hand this problem usually only starts to happen after you try to move the console upright or on its side while it is on, and afterwards discs get scratched in the same way while the console is not in motion.

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