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Microsoft not backing away from HD DVD

Even with the apparent shift in power with Warner Bros. going Blu-ray Disc exclusive this June, Microsoft, one of the founding supporters of HD DVD, reiterated its faith in the high-definition optical format.

Speaking to 1up during CES 2008, Microsoft corporate VP Jeff Bell said regarding the Warner announcement, “We were disappointed with the announcement. It has a consequence. I will tell you that we are committed to HD-DVD and still have some great partners -- Universal, Paramount, DreamWorks -- these are great participants in the format. We have sold very well the HD-DVD accessory.”

While Microsoft has been very forthcoming with Xbox 360 console sales figures, the company rarely mentions the sales of its HD DVD add-on accessory. According to NPD Group’s report released in November 2007, the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on drive accessory has sold a collective 269,000 units in the U.S., making for a 3.4 percent attach rate with the console.

“We did make a specific choice; we did not impose technology upon our consumers. We would like choice to be our guiding principle, and it has worked for us. We're not demanding that people choose a format, but rather, we're with DVD in the Xbox 360. Satisfaction with DVDs, by the way, is like 96%, at least in the States,” added Bell. “So, we continue to give the alternative in HD-DVD, we have downloadable movies and television shows on Xbox Live Marketplace, Media Center Extender is available and as we just announced, IPTV will be brought onto the Xbox 360, first with British Telecomm in 2008 for consumers. So, there's more than one choice to watch movies and TV shows.”

One other alternative for high-definition movies is Blu-ray Disc – an option that is not available on Xbox 360 users, though not an avenue that Microsoft has avoided.

“You know, interestingly, we have a long history of partnership with Sony. Obviously, they run our software on their personal computers and other devices, so we have a 'coopetition' -- a word I learned at Microsoft when I joined,” Bell said, before mentioning Microsoft’s contact with Blu-ray Disc. “We've been talking to Blu-ray all along because we have the best piece of software in the business, called HDi. It is the backbone that powers interactivity in HD-DVD and we have that available to potentially partner with others.”

Blu-ray Disc currently utilizes BD Java as its backbone for interactive features, whereas HDi is the foundation for HD DVD. Despite its hopes that Blu-ray Disc would incorporate HDi, Microsoft doesn’t appear to have any plans to bring in Blu-ray Disc just yet.

“You never say never,” said Bell. “I think we'd like to see how things evolve. Our commitment, however, to HD-DVD is profound and consistent, and we have done very, very well in term of our accessory sales. We have 400 HD-DVD movies from great studios available. It's a long time between now and June.”



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Timliness?
By NicePants42 on 1/30/2008 10:17:48 AM , Rating: 4
CES ended on January 10th.

You yourself have commented on Toshiba's new marketing strategy since then:
http://www.dailytech.com/Toshibas+New+Angle+Our+HD...
Shifting the focus to every feature EXCEPT the ability to play HD-DVD doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the format.

Since the 10th, Gartner also commented:
http://www.dailytech.com/Gartner+Declares+HD+DVD+D...
There were some real zingers in that article.

Even if you think that Bell would make identical comments today regarding the strength of their HD-DVD partnership, his emphasis on consumer choice, his eagerness to incorporate HDi with Blu-ray, and statements like "I think we'd like to see how things evolve" should help to clue people in that Microsoft is actively looking to dump HD-DVD.




RE: Timliness?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/30/2008 10:26:08 AM , Rating: 5
I think your reading into the PR spin a bit too much. Microsoft, make no mistake, would like nothing better than to see both formats crumble and switch to content on demand. Apple is betting on a similar route, likely the reason we have yet to see Apple adopt either player in their PC's.


RE: Timliness?
By Mitch101 on 1/30/2008 11:01:21 AM , Rating: 2
We heard a while back of a rumor that would absolutely destroy everything out there that Microsoft is working on. We have seen a proof of concept so we know it exists and its a simple concept taken to a whole new level. Its so simple you will be angry you didn't think of it.

We cant say much about it because well I'm sure the poo would hit the fan but we might see it the end of 2009 with the 360's replacement. Oh no he did not just say the 360's replacement is coming in 2009 did he? DX11 with physics ***cough***?

While everyone is thinking Microsoft reason for the war is download service that just a fraction of what might be coming. If I had to give it a name it would be Shock and Awe but that might be an understatement. Start saving your money 2009-2010 might have some surprises.


RE: Timliness?
By sweetsauce on 1/30/2008 11:26:13 AM , Rating: 2
Honestly 2009-2010 would be good for a new system. I think the age of 6-10 year console cycles is over and way overdue. A console that costs as much as a top of the line graphics card with near graphics potential every 4 years is more than getting your money's worth. I've personally owned more than 15 360 games, some i've sold, some i still play, so its more than made the 360 worthwhile for me.


RE: Timliness?
By othercents on 1/30/2008 12:39:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Honestly 2009-2010 would be good for a new system

Why does it have to be a new console? I think the Xbox360 is a decent platform to purchase downloadable content and the platform has not been maxed out yet. What Microsoft needs is a mainstream movie/tv player that is cost effective for everyone to access Xbox Live Marketplace. The pricing or advertising in the Marketplace might more than pay for the cost of giving away the players.

I don't forsee a new console until 2012, but I do expect Microsoft to integrate the Xbox Live Marketplace across all platforms (IE PC and Mac) and introduce a new video player to download content.

Other


RE: Timliness?
By erikejw on 1/30/2008 11:58:27 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
We heard a while back of a rumor that would absolutely destroy everything out there that Microsoft is working on.


It's the XBOX360 you are talking about.
You can barely touch it and it selfdestructs ;)


RE: Timliness?
By deeznuts on 1/30/2008 12:58:30 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I think your reading into the PR spin a bit too much. Microsoft, make no mistake, would like nothing better than to see both formats crumble and switch to content on demand.
They should be careful what they wish for ... unless they became an ISP. ISP's are the gatekeepers, and they want to charge us more. Much more. Ask Time Warner and Comcast. And video on demand from your cable provider/isp doesn't really benefit MS too much now.

Content on Demand ain't coming for a while. A long while. People are stubborn. And for now, they like their physical media.


RE: Timliness?
By NicePants42 on 1/30/2008 1:33:04 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Microsoft, make no mistake, would like nothing better than to see both formats crumble and switch to content on demand.
That's what I was getting at. I didn't mean to infer that Microsoft was actively trying to jump into bed with Blu-ray.

What struck me was that Dailytech seems to be posting articles in a back-and-forth kind of way with regard to the 'format war', and considering that these comments were made on or before January 10th, publishing this article on the 30th seems a little questionable.

Here's what DT has published since the 24th:
1/24: Blu-ray Disc Takes 93 Percent of Hardware Sales During Week 2
1/25: HD DVD Boss: The Format War is Far From Over
1/26: Sony Develops Smaller, Cheaper Blu-ray Disc Laser Unit
1/28: High-Def Sales Split Skewed by Free Blu-ray Disc Players
1/28: Gartner Declares HD DVD Dead, Woolworths Backs Blu-ray
1/30: Microsoft Still Behind HD DVD, Door Open for Blu-ray Disc

If I'm 'reading into the PR spin a bit too much' it's only because Dailytech is spewing PR from a different orifice every day with regard to this issue. Sure, it's a hot topic, but then why are these three-week-old comments being published today like they're news (or even slightly surprising)? Did the PR bucket run dry?


RE: Timliness?
By OPR8R on 1/30/2008 2:03:43 PM , Rating: 3
I think there are two ways you can choose to look at it.

1) Just look at the amount of comments that are posted in response to these stories. Perhaps DT is catering the their readers. DT must be doing something right if everyday there are hundreds of comments.

or

2) DT are visit/hit-count whores (don't know what the correct marketing jargon is) and posts stories on controversial topics to incite flame wars, and thusly drive up visit/hit-count numbers. DT has to pay the bills, I guess.


Let there be competition
By crystal clear on 1/30/2008 5:27:07 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Microsoft Still Behind HD DVD, Door Open for Blu-ray Disc


The title is misleading-"Door Open for blu-ray"

However much M.S. employees have made such statements(wishful thinking),the official policy stays firm-
"NO Blu Ray".

Let there be competition-its good for all of us !

Say for example-HDDVD is dead as many here would like to see-they chant Victory & death !

Blu Ray becomes the only format available,then Blu Ray raises their prices from HARDWARE to CONTENTS .

Then what do you-what guarrante you have they will not raise their prices in the future !

Competition bring competitive prices & YOU the buyers benefits & not the promoters of the format.

Its just too early to decide the future of the formats-let the demand & supply forces do their work.

Commentators should be more concerned with themselves,rather than bother about the format promoters.
The promoters want profits whilst we the buyers want low prices !

Reading the comments here & in the past-SOME of the commentators are clearly paid by the Blu Ray promoters to post such High Profile comments-Death & Victory etc etc.

Its crystal clear people are being paid to do the job-posting comments for the Blu Ray promoters !




RE: Let there be competition
By TerranMagistrate on 1/30/2008 7:56:31 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, it's all one massive conspiracy...

But seriously, whether it be HD-DVD or Blu-Ray: let there be a winner already. The longer this "war" drags on, the worse it is for us consumers.


RE: Let there be competition
By crystal clear on 1/31/2008 4:54:20 AM , Rating: 3
No you stand to gain in all these format wars-

Buy a HDTV from the Blue Ray promoter(Sony etc) get a B.R. player FREE.

Toshiba cuts prices drastically & more such attractive offers to follow.

They all want you the buyer !

Let there be a price war ! you gain in the bargain - see
Intel/AMD price war !

Support & promote the buyers & not the format promoters !


RE: Let there be competition
By 777 on 1/30/2008 10:31:16 PM , Rating: 2
Blu Ray becomes the only format available,then Blu Ray raises their prices from HARDWARE to CONTENTS .

Not true! Mass production and mass purchase is what generally always brings prices down for consumers.

Competition bring competitive prices & YOU the buyers benefits & not the promoters of the format.

Not entirely true. Was there any competition for the DVD format? No. Mass production brought prices dirt cheap for players and content, not two competing formats.

Its crystal clear people are being paid to do the job-posting comments for the Blu Ray promoters !

I'm not getting any kick back here, go check out blu-ray.com and see for yourself. Woolworths support Blu-ray exclusively, FS Film goes Blu-ray exclusive, Sonic Scenarist to be Blu-ray exclusive and National Geographic goes Blu-ray exclusive. Clearly these people see the writing on the wall. It is all about the almighty dollar period! If companies think Blu is where the bucks are than that's where their going to put their money. It's over HD-DVD, can we please just move on.


RE: Let there be competition
By crystal clear on 1/31/2008 4:44:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not true! Mass production and mass purchase is what generally always brings prices down for consumers.


NO ! Competition brings prices down & competition brings about a price war, then the prices are even lower !
example-Intel/AMD

I anticipated a response to my comment as all comments that do not support Blue Ray are immidiately responded to.

The public relation teams work hard & a quick response is made.
As I said in my comment-

what guarrante you have they will not raise their prices in the future !


Do you speak for the B.R. promoters or the content providers or the hardware manufacturers ? that you respond with "not true".

You assume prices will come down by your theory,when infact the realities/experience of marketing say "competition brings about lower prices & better performances.

The formula of P&P price & performance

Mass production & mass purchases are intelinked-No mass productions if there are No mass purchases-NO guarrantee there will be mass purchases-you only assume it will be that.
You cannot accurately predict consumer behaviour & responses or choices.
Example-Nobody did/could or would have predicted the PS2 will become a huge seller even today.

You take it for granted that the only format available will be Blue Ray, & everybody will just shut up & pay up.

No the buyers will respond by opting for cheaper solution/s there are & will be plenty around.

Prices are cut or kept low when there is a price war or stiff compettition between 2 competing products-you compete in price & quality

All those content producers/sellers/resellers etc go Blu Ray exclusive for a something in return, "that you could call it subsidies/funding"
Just remember its big money at play-huge sums pass hands for that B.R.exclusive only label.As you say

It is all about the almighty dollar period!

All this money is ultimately recovered through higher prices -its an investemnt that has to be recovered ultimately by passing it on to the buyers,via higher prices !

You say Clearly these people see the writing on the wall.

No they see $$$$$ ! in funds & subsidies they recieve for being B.R. exclusive.

Your assumptions are incorrect & faulty,you seem to heavily promote the B.R. format with promoters in mind & NOT the BUYERS !

you say It's over HD-DVD, can we please just move on.

The format war has just started & you claim its all over ...
just like the war in IRAQ which was supposed to be over long time ago or Afganistan.... still going on with no end in sight.

Buyers are not stupid they really dont get fooled by this -
they want it cheap or even better free they are slow adopters of technology,they are not in a big hurry to buy.

Marketing & public relations are two different things-you have to be in the marketing business to know "what buyers want"

CHEAP !

I promote the buyer !

My comments are carefully researched & appropriately worded & composed.
So read carefully before responding.......


RE: Let there be competition
By crystal clear on 1/31/2008 5:16:32 AM , Rating: 2
By the way you have only 2 comments to your credit on this site !

You are new here ! all focused on It's over HD-DVD, can we please just move on.


RE: Let there be competition
By 777 on 1/31/2008 9:45:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
By the way you have only 2 comments to your credit on this site ! You are new here ! all focused on It's over HD-DVD, can we please just move on.


The fact you felt it was necessary to point this out in a second post seems to me you can't handle someone disputing your points. Fact is everything I stated does hold water. You also missed the fact that DVD exploded when it was the only choice consumers had and mass produced prices went down. People don't want to waste money on a cheap product they can't watch anything on. If all those who are producing the content all favored HD-DVD great, but there not.

Also the fact that both Toshiba and Microsoft felt they needed to buy out Paramount for 150 million says they were desperate. I would also like to see your proof that all these choosing Blu-ray are getting kick backs. I have worked for two of the companies that are Blu-ray exclusive and they recieve no kick backs for supporting this format. In fact one company has a heck of time getting support from Sony to make their content work well on Blu-ray.

Take a look at Japan, they are favoring Blu-ray 93% to 6% HD-DVD, I don't care which format, but two formats isn't any good for the consumer in this type of medium. This isn't like game consoles, all the people I deal with in relation to my business ask me all the time which format to go with and in the past I have said to wait it out. Two formats isn't benefiting anyone! It would only if you COULD buy a $100 combo player - NOT GONNA HAPPEN!


RE: Let there be competition
By crystal clear on 2/1/2008 4:07:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The fact you felt it was necessary to point this out in a second post seems to me you can't handle someone disputing your points.


NO my friend I on the contrary like discussing any topic (tech related ofcourse)with anybody on the site.
Thats the great part of posting your comment here,you state your views/opinions, that starts a process of arguments & counter argument/s back & forth.

Just as its human to err....its human to disagree....

Thats the fun in communicating -a form of debate ..for & against.

I certainly dont expect you or anybody else to agree with all what I have to say-I post my views/opinions crystal clear with express purpose of reading a counter argument...

I can handle anybody when it comes to a decent/intelligent discusion/s,the only time I refuse/refrain to respond if the commentators becomes abusive or insulting.
No time for Hot heads & fanatics etc.

Just as I dispute your point of view -you do the same ...& I like it & expect it....

The purpose of checking your past comments was to verify the pattern of your commenting & contents-thats all ! & as I said "by the way".Nothing more than that.

I will post a response the the other half of your comments soon-got some urgent calls to make & will be back.


RE: Let there be competition
By 777 on 2/1/2008 11:15:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just as I dispute your point of view -you do the same ...& I like it & expect it....


Good to hear. From a business standpoint I admit I am biased towards Blu. I saw the specs from the beginning when Sony was developing the format and always felt in the long run was the better format. It has been built new from the ground up, HD-DVD was not.

On the consumer side IF I could buy a $100 combo player MAYBE I would jump in, but I am disappointed there is a lot of content I cannot watch in Hi-def without owning two players. Which I simply will not do. As Divx fell by the wayside to DVD, I would like to see one format dominate the market so I can watch anything I want in Hi-def. As I see it, with one format it will bring the competition you point out, competition from all companies to put out the best possible player and in turn drive prices down by mass producing both the players and content. Equalling unconfused happy consumers who can watch anything they want on their Hi-def player.

Most consumers I deal with could give a rip about marketing B.S., they want cheap, rock solid & a easy to use device to enjoy their entertainment, not confusion over which format is better and not wanting to waste their time and money on a format that won't play say "Transformers". I just want to see someone get this right and make the consumer happy.


By crystal clear on 2/2/2008 3:18:16 AM , Rating: 2
Anyway nice discussing with you-lets watch how things take shape in 2008.

We will have more opportunities to disagree in the future & keep the arguments going back & forth.

Have a nice day !


By crystal clear on 2/1/2008 7:16:30 AM , Rating: 2
You say-It would only if you COULD buy a $100 combo player - NOT GONNA HAPPEN!


You can be very sure a combo will sooner or later come into the market at that price range ! let it be a standalone player or console/computer drive.

Hey this is a big market & major players in the hardware market will jump in to take their share of the market-there is a lot of money to be made/take in this market.I am talking worldwide not a particular region.

At that stage the content providers will regret all these format wars & realize it was so stupid & unnecessary...

The buyers are waiting it out just for that- a combo player that pushes aside all those format hinderences(there really dont care about the formats) & thats plug & play.
Price & performance being the deciding factor as usual.

Do what you the do the best -thats the quote of the day EVERYDAY for content providers.
Stick to content production & dont waste time on formats.
The buyers are interested in CONTENTS-give them quality contents ! on a quality format.
The buyers woulld not know the difference between the formats,nor do they care ! they want quality contents -thats the deciding factor.
So strictly focus on quality contents,thats where you generate revenues & profits.

Marketing/promotional fundings(huge amounts) is a common thing in the computer industry.
Examples-
Intel funding OEMs/sellers/resellers etc.
M.S. for Vista & every major company of some repute.
Apple gets special treatment from Intel for going Intel exclusive - example the new Mac Air,I can go on......

The kick backs you refer to are just that under the cover of Marketing & promotional fundings.

Going exclusive means MONEY ! the hardcore realities of business....

Two cats fight for the cheese whilst the mice takes it away-that exactly what those COMBO players etc will do whilst the 2 formats fight it out.

Have a nice day !


Microsoft
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/30/2008 9:57:23 AM , Rating: 2
From a Microsoft perspective, I doubt we would see them particularly willing to allow Java to execute on the Xbox360. Microsoft and Java do not play nicely.




RE: Microsoft
By zombiexl on 1/30/2008 10:34:51 AM , Rating: 2
MS isnt allowed to include a JVM with their products, but the standard JVM works just fine on windows. My guess is that the windows version could be adapted to run on the 360. The only problem is MS woudln't be allowed to touch it, Sun would most likely need to do the work.


RE: Microsoft
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/30/2008 10:38:24 AM , Rating: 2
You really think Microsoft is going to let Sun build the JVM for their console? For that matter, anyone but themselves for their own console?


RE: Microsoft
By RaulF on 1/30/2008 12:07:56 PM , Rating: 2
That's if they dont own the patents they can't touch it. Unless they pay that is. And even then is not guarantied that Sun will take the money and allow them to use it. MS will just come up with something of their own for anything they can't have.


RE: Microsoft
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/30/2008 12:15:43 PM , Rating: 2
Yes. They called it .Net


RE: Microsoft
By RaulF on 1/30/2008 1:16:11 PM , Rating: 2
LOL.


RE: Microsoft
By glennpratt on 1/30/2008 6:33:37 PM , Rating: 2
I would just have a third party develop the codec and player (Like PowerDVD, etc) and include it in the box with the player. Let them deal with Sun and Java.


RE: Microsoft
By Shawn on 1/31/2008 5:11:26 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with you. I don't think we will ever see Blu-ray supported by the xbox360 or natively in Media Center.


Microsoft is "hoist on one's own petard"...
By kilkennycat on 1/30/2008 1:58:58 PM , Rating: 2
... as the French would say.

With regards to HD-DVD's demise, Microsoft have only themselves to blame.

Microsoft's penny-pinching and lily-livered fence-sitting has been BY FAR the most significant contribution to the demise of HD-DVD.

If M$$ had decided 1.5 to 2 years ago to fully integrate a HD-DVD drive into a new version of the Xbox360 for BOTH movies and and games, (fully backward compatible with the existing Xbox360, except for future game-titles exceeding normal DVD capacity ) and price that version consistently $50 - $100 below the PS3 price, then HD-DVD would still be in contention and probably the winner, since the Xbox360 had a full year head-start on the PS3. If M$$ had committed to an integrated HD-DVD drive 2 years ago, probably 1/3 of the Xbox360s out there now would have had HD-DVD drives fully integrated.... ~ 4 million units !!

Sony's loss-leader bet with the PS3 as a Blu-ray player seems to have paid off handsomly, both in future-proofing the PS3 as a Blu-ray player and in current market perceptions of the PS3 vs the Xbox360. How many Xbox360 owners with nice shiny HD-DVD drives and the potential for the red-ring-of-death continuously hanging over them now have positive feelings towards Microsoft? How many prospective Xbox360 customers will now be taking a second look at the PS3? Putting an alternate Blu-ray drive as a bag-on-the-side of the Xbox360 will not cure Microsoft's ills with regard to the Xbox360. That external Blu-ray drive and its interface to the current Xbox360 will not be able to host any next-gen graphics-intensive games, plus putting the integrated smarts and memory to track the evolving Blu-ray standard on this external drive will cost Microsoft extra cash.... or more likely their prospective customers. Maybe they might consider a $150 trade-in for the HD-DVD drive against a $200 Blu-ray drive for the Xbox360? Naw, that would be totally contrary to Microsoft customer-philosophy.

Microsoft now finds itself in a Catch 22 of their own making. In the HDTV world and for future graphics-intensive games, the Xbox360 is at a dead-end, If Microsoft do not want the Xbox360 product-line to be rapidly relegated to the obsolete-consumer-product shelf to join the Gamecube and legion of other past consoles, they need to swallow their pride ASAP and release a brand-new version of the Xbox360 (er, Xbox720) with a fully-integrated Blu-ray drive (a la Sony) while also completely redesigning the product and its packaging to fix the design flaws causing the internal overheating that continues to cause the red ring of death.




RE: Microsoft is "hoist on one's own petard"...
By sweetsauce on 1/30/2008 6:12:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How many Xbox360 owners with nice shiny HD-DVD drives and the potential for the red-ring-of-death continuously hanging over them now have positive feelings towards Microsoft?
About 3%, a very insignificant portion.
quote:
How many prospective Xbox360 customers will now be taking a second look at the PS3?
People who want a ps3 and not a xbox360 maybe? At this point there is no consumer out there that is not aware of both consoles and what they provide. You purchase what you want for yourself. For me i wanted a gaming system, so my decision was easy.
quote:
Putting an alternate Blu-ray drive as a bag-on-the-side of the Xbox360 will not cure Microsoft's ills with regard to the Xbox360
Not sure where to go with this one, so many options. Neither add-on drive will solve the RROD problems, so you can't possibly be talking about that. Do you mean the ill of outselling the ps3 2:1 worldwide while not having a blu-ray drive? Perhaps you mean the ill of having the insane rate of 7 games purchased for every xbox360 sold? Or it could be the ill of constantly outselling their ps3 counterparts in multi-platform games?
quote:
If Microsoft do not want the Xbox360 product-line to be rapidly relegated to the obsolete-consumer-product shelf to join the Gamecube and legion of other past consoles, they need to swallow their pride ASAP and release a brand-new version of the Xbox360 (er, Xbox720) with a fully-integrated Blu-ray drive (a la Sony)
This one was pretty good, had me laughing out loud at work. I'm sure microsoft is scrambling right now to include a blu-ray drive since that will solve their problem of what again? Wait you can't possibly mean the RROD problems are caused by the DVD drives? Damn you should sell your services as an engineer.
quote:
completely redesigning the product and its packaging to fix the design flaws causing the internal overheating that continues to cause the red ring of death.
Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but they've already taken care of that problem. With the upcoming gpu die shrink, it will be an afterthought.


By TerranMagistrate on 1/30/2008 7:52:49 PM , Rating: 2
About 3%, a very insignificant portion.

While that very well may be the case for the newer 360s out, a good majority of the millions of 360s sold still have the 90nm CPU and you know what that means: a roughly 33% failure rate. Which is arguably a significant portion, I'd say.


RE: Microsoft is "hoist on one's own petard"...
By sweetsauce on 1/30/2008 11:04:10 PM , Rating: 1
I guarantee you if they researched those people that had rrod problems, you would find that over 75% use their system standing up. I've had mine since launch, and the first thing i noticed when i took it out of the box is theres a huge air inlet on the side, which happens to be the part of the system that it stands on when upright. Common sense told me that maybe i should lay my system down normally and not be one of the cool kids that get to have theirs standing up. Is it an excuse for rrod problems, no, but it is logical.


By Takemaru on 2/3/2008 12:08:10 AM , Rating: 2
The editors&reviewers of IGN have been through about 12-15 360's among them so far, is it user error in their case as well?

Whatever it is, MS's not saying, but logic suggests its because it's their fault. If they could throw blame on the users they would do it in no time at all like they did early on. They wouldn't be spending billions replacing and revising the hardware if it wasn't their incompetence that led to it.

They rushed the thing out without proper QC and they're paying for it, litterally. But who's surprised? the Xbox division has been nothing but a hemmorage for MS because of their oversights, i don't think they made a single dollar off of the first one, they actually lost money, a lot of money because they didn't think a well rounded software library was important and the thing got outsold 10 to 1.. Now they can expect this one to end in the red as well, ironically it's hardware issues this time, hope the next one works out, but then, they may find a way to screw up live!


By rudy on 1/31/2008 12:05:49 AM , Rating: 2
You may be right but why would M$ take such a huge risk for Toshiba? Neither M$ nor Toshiba had any idea how the others product would fair, if everyone knew the future, Toshiba would have given HD DVD drives to Nintendo for free and destroyed everyone.

Sony did not have any type of similar risk to these other guys since they owned both the PS3 and Blue Ray, they felt even though it was wrong that the PS3 would be a hit and it would crush HD DVD in its path. It turned out PS3 was almost a flop. But since they also owned half the movie industry they just had way to many of the cards in their hand. And slowly they are building momentum.

It is easy to look back and point fingers but not so easy to make the right decisions when billions of dollars are on the line before you know what will happen.

None of it matters to me, I own none, PCs are the way to go, it is the unified console platform. And I wont touch HD anything until they have dual format R/W under $100.


Predictions
By alifbaa on 1/30/08, Rating: 0
RE: Predictions
By DingieM on 1/30/2008 9:52:13 AM , Rating: 2
Buy a PC Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD drive and use the 360 as a media extender?
Currently I use the 360 as media extender, stream some HD movies and it works great and flawlessly, and it is also dead easy :-)
Don't stream ROM based media on PC via the 360, don't know if that is supported though...


RE: Predictions
By Bioniccrackmonk on 1/30/2008 10:01:58 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Before I comment, let me first say I'm not a fanboy of either brand.


Starts off with this

quote:
The only response M$ has will be to reduce their prices further


Then says this, too funny.


RE: Predictions
By omnicronx on 1/30/2008 10:08:29 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
My prediction is that PS3 will drop in price when they introduce the 80GB replacement model talked about earlier this week.
Your prediction seems to be wrong, Sony has already stated they will bring in new models, but the price point would remain the same.


RE: Predictions
By eyebeeemmpawn on 1/30/2008 10:43:27 AM , Rating: 2
small point, you can't rule out a prediction with something that has been said in the past...especially by sony :)

Stating in advance that there is a price drop would be shooting yourself in the foot.

BTW, not sony-bashing, I own a PS3 and a Wii.


By bfellow on 1/30/2008 9:48:38 AM , Rating: 2
There's already been rumors/discussion that MS is just trying to perfect their own HD download service to possibly rival AppleTV. They already have XBOX Live in place so why not keep HD-DVD and Blu-Ray battling each other to death and then releasing a cheaper HD alternative with less headaches/bugs when its finally released.




By BansheeX on 1/30/2008 10:42:09 AM , Rating: 2
It'll be a cold day in hell when I accept pay-per-stream or invest in MS-specific DRM files, forever entrenching myself in a particular console without the freedoms, conveniences, or resale value of a physical, industry-wide format.


By probedb on 1/30/2008 11:40:15 AM , Rating: 4
MS/Apple really need to understand broadband speed/adoption in countries other than the USA. In the UK broadband is predominantly ADSL as far as I'm aware and most people won't see over 2/3Mbps which isn't enough to stream/download hi def content effectively....my sister's connection can barely manage 512Kbps.

Just because the people who work for MS have super fast broadband doesn't mean the rest of the world does.


By imaheadcase on 1/30/2008 12:35:30 PM , Rating: 2
Its not just in the UK, any place but Japan and a small % of people can't actually do it. The US has spotty broadband still.


I wonder
By Bioniccrackmonk on 1/30/2008 10:03:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
We did make a specific choice; we did not impose technology upon our consumers.


If the guy that said this was also the same person responsible for rushing the console out to market, thereby creating the whole RROD saga.




RE: I wonder
By AlphaVirus on 1/30/2008 12:40:58 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder who rated you down for that simple statement.

quote:
We did make a specific choice; we did not impose technology upon our consumers.

I think he was trying to take a cheap shot at Sony for including Blu in its very first SKU. Sony made a very risky decision by doing this but it paid off very well for them. If MS had included HDDVD in the 360 then it might have won the war by now since it came out before the PS3.


Huh?
By Murst on 1/30/2008 10:23:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's a long time between now and June.


Was this statement made as a response to a question about the Warner announcement?




RE: Huh?
By TerranMagistrate on 1/30/2008 8:04:58 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed.

I'm curious to see what MS is planning in an attempt to counter this huge shift in support. Perhaps that will be around the time they abandon HD-DVD themselves in order to focus more on their own plans to try and take on Blu-Ray with some sort of downloading service.


Choice? HA! Where is my Blu addon then?
By winterspan on 1/30/2008 4:56:34 PM , Rating: 1
" We would like choice to be our guiding principle, and it has worked for us."

WTF? Is that why I have a choice between an HD-DVD addon and a Bluray addon? Choice my ass. What a moron.




By griffynz on 1/30/2008 10:10:26 PM , Rating: 2
Its to do with the cost of the console.
Here in NZ the PS3 is $799 vs. x360 $419 (core)
If you don't want all the xtras you don't buy them... think of it like building a new PC. If you want HD movies get a LG Dual player/recorder, If you don't then get a DVD drive or even a CD Rom...It just get cheaper.
I don't see Sony offering to add a HD-DVD drive to the PS3, maybe there are some legal issues here (see the comments above regarding HDi and Java).

Wikipedia : Hewlett Packard (HP) made a last ditch attempt to broker a peace between the Blu-ray Disc Association and Microsoft. HP demanded that the Blu-ray association adopted Microsoft's HDi instead of its own Java solution, and that Blu-ray adopt a mandatory managed copy feature. If their demands weren't met, HP threatened to support HD DVD instead.[28] In a research report, Gartner analysts Van Baker, Laura Behrens and Mike McGuire wrote that if HP's proposal was accepted, Blu-ray would become the winner of the format war.[29] However, the Blu-ray Disc group did not accept HP's offer.

...and so we have a format war...


Microsoft
By SavagePotato on 1/30/2008 10:34:17 AM , Rating: 2
My take on Microsoft is that Michael Bay was right on the money on their intentions.

Their digital download service is their real hope. They kept their options open though by not putting an hd-dvd drive in the 360. Had they really vehemently supported hd-dvd as they say, they would have put a drive in the 360 by now.

Chances are a 360 with a built in hd-dvd drive would have made a big difference. Too late now though since hd-dvd is already done and Microsoft can and will stick them one by releasing a blu-ray drive when it becomes too profitable to ignore. Microsoft has a pretty good history of giving the kiss of death to it's partners when it's convenient (os2 for example.)

Anyone that thinks any corporate entity is looking out for anything but itself is fooling themselves. The only difference between Sony, Microsoft, or Toshiba, is Sony management is arrogant and does a bad job of hiding it. Toshiba and Microsoft, both have done a much better job. Toshiba especially has played the people card perfectly in twisting people into believing they have nothing but the consumer in mind. Microsoft on the other hand doesn't always fare so well, their intent shows through plenty.

They have your money in mind no different than the others.




Microsoft could end the war!
By glennpratt on 1/30/2008 6:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
Just perfect HD movie downloads. Use the HD DVD system in download form, make it modular too, so I can download just the video and audio tracks I need for my region and setup. But give us all the interactivity from HD DVD too (HDi). Use a somewhat open DRM that other companies can implement (Both in software ie PowerDVD and hardware ie MCE Extenders, Network Media Players).

Allow streaming from PCs (this is a key, the Xbox HDD is too small and can't be easily backed up) and update the Xbox 360 to handle it and were set!




very nice article
By geeg on 1/30/2008 11:52:21 AM , Rating: 1
thanks Marcus!




No you don't
By rupaniii on 1/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: No you don't
By gregm81 on 1/30/2008 10:11:43 AM , Rating: 2
RE: No you don't
By sweetsauce on 1/30/2008 10:18:37 AM , Rating: 2
?


Stick to software MS....
By chizow on 1/30/08, Rating: -1
By StevoLincolnite on 1/30/2008 10:10:00 AM , Rating: 2
Well I would have loved them to include the HD DVD drive into the Xbox upon release, I mean they could have still released a Blue-Ray Drive Addon if the HD DVD format was not a success? and if HD DVD media went up in price, they could still use DVD media is an alternative.

But a few reasons I am glad they didn't -The 360 was rather expensive for a console upon release, they were around the $800 dollar mark - So that would have pushed it further.
And games may have gotten more expensive if the media was more expensive, a good example of this was the Nintendo 64 vs Playstation where the Nintendo 64 games were more expensive because they were cartridge based. (I still liked how there was no load times though :) That was an advantage).

And the HD DVD drive itself hasn't been worked in and refined like the DVD drive, so perhaps there could have been more failures for the console, which they certainly didn't need.


RE: Stick to software MS....
By blaster5k on 1/30/2008 10:11:10 AM , Rating: 2
Their consoles also would have been much more expensive and probably never have gained the traction they did. They might have had an opportunity if they had added an HD-DVD drive to the Elite or created some other higher end model.


RE: Stick to software MS....
By chizow on 1/30/2008 10:54:00 AM , Rating: 2
Certainly different SKUs would've been an option, but even included on entry-level SKUs it wouldn't have added as much as a Blu-Ray adds to the cost of a PS3, a cost Sony was willing to absorb. Toshiba's various fire sales on HD-DVD hardware substantiates this. They're forced to cut prices now to stay alive, but if HD-DVD was proactive from the start it might not have come to the current situation.

Just takes some forward-thinking and a willingness to make some sacrifices for long-term gains. Figure you take out the cost of additional components, casing and packaging from stand-alone players along with price subsidies from MS/Toshiba and the cost of a DL-DVD drive and you could maybe cut add-on cost for the end consumer to $50. Well worth it, especially when you look at the big picture and the lead XBox360 has over PS3 in units sold. Then compare a 3.5% attach rate to 100% attach rate and the difference is rather shocking.

Also, to the comment about media cost, XBox360 only uses standard DL DVD. Including an HD-DVD wouldn't have changed this as HD-DVD is fully backwards compatible. HD-DVD would've provided future upgradability however, reducing the need for multiple discs while enabling content growth for future titles.


RE: Stick to software MS....
By boogle on 1/30/2008 11:41:49 AM , Rating: 3
Exactly. People seem to forget the Xbox 360 is a games console . It's not a blu-ray player or an HD-DVD player. MS have given the option for it to play HD-DVDs (relatively) cheaply if you really want to.

I've seen it commented that if BD wins, MS will have to add a BD drive to the core console so it can play high definition games. Why? The optical media is just a storage device for the game, and the X360 has been getting along fine with DVD games from the beginning.

Either way the X360 is a games console and MS are under no obligation to support either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray with said console.

This article is barely even newsworthy - it was Microsoft's exactly line when they launched the HD-DVD add-on. They said that they want to remain format neutral for the games console itself, and this hasn't changed. They said at the very launch of the addon that if blu-ray wins, they'll release a blu-ray addon. They're basically supporting HD-DVD simply because they get a little more cash through licensing. Ultimately though the cash they do get is just a drop in the ocean.

Why invest a massive amount of cash into a format when you get little return? Exactly the reason MS haven't, and why they haven't come to HD-DVD's rescue. It's popular to say that HD-DVD is Microsoft's format, but ultimately they care little. Toshiba on the other hand...

Don't get me started on MS making a load of cash with HD movie downloads either. Are they profiting from MP3 downloads? Barely. Even itunes isn't exactly massive. 2007 - £163 million revenue through mp3 downloads in the UK. 2007 - £4.2 BILLION revenue through CD sales in the UK.

MS want maximum profits and revenue. They get that through sellings lots of consoles and games. This means making the console as cheap as possible (there goes any form of HD drive then!) and having as many (high-sales) games as possible.


RE: Stick to software MS....
By Jimmybones on 1/30/2008 11:10:57 AM , Rating: 4
1.) Microsoft wanted to be the first to market regardless of cost. They achieved this and have produced both a successful console and a flawed console.

2.) See 1. The inclusion of a HD DVD would not have been possible. Considering a new console launch typically has a multipe month ramp out. The first HD DVD units were unleased on the public until 5 months after the 360 launched.

So the inclusion of HD DVD drive would have caused the failure of #1. There primary reason for pushing so hard for an early release.


RE: Stick to software MS....
By sweetsauce on 1/30/2008 11:31:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now they've left the door open for a PS3 revival
This one still baffles me. Microsoft is new to gaming, while sony has the greatest brand recognition ever for a console with the playstation name. Sony should never have been in that position remember? It was supposed to launch and make the xbox360 an after thought just like ps2 did to the dreamcast. Microsoft is supposed to be the underdog, not sony and the P$3. LOL P$3, M$, im creative.


"Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment -- same piece of hardware -- paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be." -- Steve Ballmer














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