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Microsoft's vested interest in fat clients puts it at odds with many in the virtualization business

Many in the tech community believe that virtualization is the wave of the future.  It allows for hardware consolidation, power savings, legacy support – this all adds up to potentially increased productivity and cost savings.  However, some are not wholeheartedly on the virtualization bandwagon.

Microsoft is among these detractors.  Despite efforts to support virtualization and offering virtualization products, Microsoft remains reticent on the issue and has at times spoken out, in effect, against virtualization.  Ultimately, if everyone were to switch to thin-client desktops with virtualization (ala a widespread cloud computing scheme), Microsoft might make considerably less revenue from its licenses as thin client licenses often cost less than "fat clients" like Microsoft Windows.  Microsoft would be faced with trying to sell products for a new kind of ecosystem, one in which it is not necessarily the top competitor in.

With the impending release of Windows 7, Microsoft's anti-virtualization rhetoric is in full effect and is most vocally heard at its Windows 7 workshops, which are touring the country.  At these workshops, titled "Windows and the Enterprise", it has accused virtualization of being a costly technique, inappropriate for most large businesses --  a commentary very much at odds with the perspective of many major players in the tech industry.

At a presentation in San Francisco, Microsoft officials said that Microsoft's Virtual Desktop Infrastructure (VDI) might be appropriate for up to 100 machines.  For users with more machines it says virtualization is generally a poor idea.  These comments come despite the fact that Microsoft has large-scale virtualization projects with Citrix Systems.

According to virtualization advocates, Microsoft's commentary is based on some accurate facts but is generally misleading.  Virtualization, according to supporters, does place heavier demands on computing resources at data centers, where most of the processing is offloaded.  Despite the numerous benefits in efficiency this can bring, it does require an infrastructure shift and can place stress on corporate data centers.  Furthermore, as more process-vital information is being relayed over the network, network integrity also becomes increasingly important.

Ultimately, they say, implementing desktop virtualization can be tougher than implementing server virtualization.  VDI typically has application workloads with many more active applications and greater variety among these applications than server virtualization.

Still, they argue that Microsoft's perspective is flawed as key technologies like RDP (Remote Desktop Protocol) and the thin client are making VDI a smart tactic.  VDI, they say, can put control of typically complex IT topics like which applications are available for use, in the hands of less-technical professionals like business managers.  Less IT support is needed to maintain such a system as all the machines are centrally controlled and managed.  While some technologies such as Intel's VPro are looking to bring similar improvements to non-virtualized networked computers, VDI ultimately seems the more efficient approach.

All this paints a picture of VDI becoming increasingly attractive -- a disturbing one to Microsoft.  WEWeek's Cameron Sturdevant writes, "The possible benefits in terms of better regulatory compliance through strong enforcement of desktop and application configuration, tighter security through frequent desktop refreshes, and tighter lockdown are compelling reason to question whether the days of the fat client are numbered."

So while Microsoft half-heartedly tries to implement VDI, it is likely to continue to less than subtly try to push the market away from implementing it on a broad scale.  After all, it has much at stake in trying to convince businesses to stay away from VDI.



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Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By phxfreddy on 3/9/2009 1:30:41 PM , Rating: 3
The cloud thingy seems good from say a supercomputing perspective. Its also probably good from a bonehead users perspective.

When it comes to a knowledgeable user who develops software or does a more than skin deep user you need a fat client right or wrong?

I just don't see how I develop my VB apps et al with out the real thing.




RE: Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By FITCamaro on 3/9/2009 2:17:46 PM , Rating: 3
Agreed. For places like libraries, fine. But for the corporate environment, I want my own desktop. Couldn't imagine having just a monitor and keyboard. Certain things are slow enough. I've used VNC clients and the like, they are generally acceptable but if it was what I had to deal with every day, I'd be annoyed.


RE: Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By callmeroy on 3/9/2009 3:33:23 PM , Rating: 3
It really does depend on the application and the environment.

I can tell you that, as someone who works IT in the Health Care industry - this computerization of our health care system that even Obama is cheerleading --- guess what a lot of practices are looking at....yep....thin client technologies.

We are actually in the start of some contracts to install thin clients for EMR and PM solutions for a large hospital chain, just waiting for some last minute details to be worked out and scheduling.

Thin client will be huge in health care if Obama sticks to his guys wanting the industry to convert to EMRs.

Why does this matter -- do you know how large the Health Care industry is? :)

Anyway ...I digress in some other applications fat clients are the only way to go -- for example I wouldn't think it would be too smart to use thin client solutions for say an architecture firm or really any application having to do with intensive modeling.


RE: Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By AntiM on 3/9/2009 4:24:27 PM , Rating: 2
Virtualization/thin client is the way of the future. It won't work for all users in a large corporation, but it will work fine for most of them.
The time isn't ripe yet, but it's coming. MS can jump on the bandwagon or be left behind, and then play catch up like they always end up having to do.


RE: Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By afkrotch on 3/9/2009 5:10:21 PM , Rating: 3
I'd rather see desktop blades. You have your own dedicated hardware, but it's just not in front of you. All you get is a keyboard, monitor, mouse, and maybe some usb plugs (for cd-rom, etc).

If your desktop crashes, not a problem, the blade chassis automatically transfer everything you were doing to another chassis or cache's it til your system comes back up.

Takes nothing away from the customer, while providing the admins more control/ease. Being able to maintenance your machines without having to leave your office or stop someone from using the machine.


By Manch on 3/9/2009 10:32:20 PM , Rating: 2
They have them. I don't like them tho. Well,at least the solution we have(Clear Cube). Having all the desktops as blades (each blade holds a couple "Desktops") is great but you still have to have a KVM like box that includes the usual's. It hogs bandwidth since it one cable is for KVM duties and the other for your network connectivity. To top it off this damn box needs power and is the same size as a small form factor pc. The cost is outrageous. See, this is what happens when you get a bunch of idiots that get wowed by pretty colors and catch phrases.

In the end we now have several racks of "desktop"blades, have to run twice as much fiber, and the "KVM" boxes are THE SIZE OF A SMALL PC! And to top that off, the fact that they are in a rack means we remote into them anyways, which doesnt change how we did business to begin with. When I found out what the powers that be decided to purchase this crap I thought to myself....Fuck me they actually found a way to make my job harder!

What they should have done was switch to small form factor PC's and then spent the fricken money on some nice remote desktop software(still got to impress the higher ups) and then with the money left over they could have oh I dont know bought everybody hookers, a keg party, trip to disney world, uhhh newer servers bigger screens, jesus anything .would have been better.

I just dont see the point of desktop blades when you're going to replace the box with another box. You've just doubled the nmber off things you have to power.

There are better options. What ever happened to that time slicing tech. 1 desktop two keyboards/mice,montiors and cd/dvd burners?

//end rant//


RE: Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By Disorganise on 3/9/2009 10:38:35 PM , Rating: 2
Trouble is with that approach (desktop blades) is that you still need a device on the desk to plug the monitor etc into. so now you have two bits of hardware (blade + desktop box) instead of one (traditional PC).
Not saying it's bad, but I don't see much improvement over a winterm type device. So long as the Citrix/Terminal Server is scaled properly, a winterm could likely outperform a PC blade since more RAM and CPU is easily added.
From an admin POV, you still have to patch each and every blade PC like you do a desktop. so the gain is???

And be it through desktop blade or the citrix-style thin client, moving all that end-user number crunching (even 'just' for outlook, word etc) into the data centre adds heat and therefore increases cooling requirements. True, you remove the PC's and drop heat on the office, but you'll still need some kind of box to attach the mouse and monitor etc - if it consumes power it creates heat. given the office will still need to be cooled for the people, I wonder if there's really any power savings to be made?


RE: Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By TreeDude62 on 3/10/2009 10:44:36 AM , Rating: 2
Thin clients produce very little heat and use far less energy than a traditional PC.

We have 2U servers that have 4 CPUs and 4GB of RAM a piece that can handle about 30 users. Once we upgrade to Server 2008 x64 we will be able to bump the RAM up to 16GB and be able to handle around 100 users per server. Thin clients use around 15-20 watts, where as PC are around 85-100 watts. The server is 750 watts and will produce less overall heat than 100 dedicated PCs. So 20x100+750= 2,750 watts vs 100x100= 10,000 watts.

You can see the savings and why many companies are moving toward this.


RE: Every body keeps buzzwording cloud
By Iridium130m on 3/10/2009 11:59:55 AM , Rating: 2
Plus in the evenings, idle servers in large VDI farms can automatically shutdown, thereby saving even more power. With desktops, IT's general policy is to have all the desktops on at night for patches and such. That need goes away with a centralized template that everyone's session gets deployed from.


By Manch on 3/10/2009 6:00:32 PM , Rating: 2
wake on LAN? easy enough to do.


By lco45 on 3/10/2009 4:03:16 AM , Rating: 2
You most certainly do.

From a work perspective your software needs will be so unique within the organization that their admin would be wasting their time getting your software virtualised.

At home you need a fat client for things like DirectX or anything where lag must be minimized, particularly gaming.

Luke


I'm tired of all this misinformation
By amanojaku on 3/9/2009 8:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
Let me be clear up front: I work for that other guy MS hates because our virtualization is better than theirs.

That being said, most people don't know squat about ANYONE'S virtualization and most places have implemented it incorrectly. You can't build a shared infrastructure out of crappy hardware, and you can't allocate those resources without understanding how they're going to be used.

Don't virtualize 1,000 desktops with 50GB of storage each (that's ~50TB) onto a storage array with 100 disks at 500GB a piece and wonder why I/O performance is bad. The QUANTITY of storage is the same; the I/O is 10 TIMES HIGHER PER DISK. You'll need to upgrade from the SATA in the desktops to FC in the storage array to sustain the performance. And add a few more disks just to be safe.

Don't virutalize a four-CPU server with 30% average utilization onto a four CPU host with three other VMs identically configured and wonder with CPU performance is bad. I mean, last time I checked 100% is the most you can get out of anything; only a basketball player can give you 120%.

So you need to have good hardware and you need to allocate that hardware correctly. You're saving money by virtualizing, so don't be cheap on the infrastructure!

FYI, MS has two reasons for hating virtualization:

1) It can't get virtualization to perform well, unlike some companies
2) It can't create a licensing model that makes sense without screwing people




By Smilin on 3/10/2009 8:39:23 AM , Rating: 3
Yeah that damn FREE license cost with hyper-V is really screwing people...oh wait nm..it's what $29?

Yep. SCREWED!


By Iridium130m on 3/10/2009 10:12:50 AM , Rating: 2
Microsoft hates other vendors' virtualization because they lost complete control of the hardware.

Once they've lost control of the hardware, then administrators then begin to wonder why thy have to run a full OS in a VM when at the end of the day all we care about is the application that is running. Then app vendors start developing Virtual Appliances that are purpose built with out an expensive OS to run that application we care about.

BOOM, there goes a good chunk of Microsoft's revenue stream.


By TreeDude62 on 3/10/2009 2:02:09 PM , Rating: 2
Well first off, you don't virtualize a server that needs 4 CPUs. Best keep high I/O servers on dedicated hardware, they perform much better that way.

Also if your virtualizing all desktops, wouldn't you use some sort of remote application distribution (like Citrix) so everyone doesn't need HD space for apps (only a few power users should need apps locally installed to the VM)? Most users don't have 50gb of data (I think the most anyone has at my company is ~15gb).

But your right, you need to be smart about setting these things up. The hardware has to be better than what you need it for so you have some wiggle room.


RE: I'm tired of all this misinformation
By SammyJr on 3/10/2009 3:39:22 PM , Rating: 2
1. Hyper-V performs as well as ESX or better in some instances.
http://virtualizationreview.com/features/article.a...

Its also a far better choice in smaller budget environments because Windows runs well on everything whereas ESX is supported only on a narrow subset of hardware, all of which is very expensive and usually overkill for a smaller organization.

2. Hyper-V licensing is trivial.
free Hyper-V Server = no included Windows licenses.
Windows 2008 Standard w/Hyper-V = 1 physical, 1 virtual
Windows 2008 Enterprise w/Hyper-V = 1 physical, 4 virtual
Windows 2008 Datacenter w/Hyper-V = 1 physical, unlimited virtual
SCVMM Workgroup handles 5 hosts, Enterprise handles unlimited hosts

Note: I'm not an MS fanboy, but I just spent 8 months in hell trying to get ESX 3.5 stable on whitebox hardware in our low budget environment. VMware support wouldn't help because our hardware wasn't on the list and we couldn't afford hardware on the list. Hyper-V just worked.

If I had a million dollars for IT, we'd be on ESX with all the goodies.


By Smilin on 3/11/2009 9:26:01 AM , Rating: 2
+1 for appropriately calling shenanigans.


Let's face it.
By Smilin on 3/9/2009 1:32:02 PM , Rating: 5
Cost, Schmost... desktop virtualization runs like sh1t!

It's not a MS, *nix, Citrix, or whatever issue either. Some apps do fine but generally it sucks to run things in "terminal" sessions.

Virtualization is great for the server space and some odds and ends apps benefit from it but replacing all your fat clients would result in a sucky user experience.




RE: Let's face it.
By phxfreddy on 3/9/09, Rating: 0
RE: Let's face it.
By kmmatney on 3/9/2009 2:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
uhm...wtf?


RE: Let's face it.
By HeelyJoe on 3/9/2009 7:08:17 PM , Rating: 1
RE: Let's face it.
By Iridium130m on 3/10/2009 10:25:51 AM , Rating: 2
Desktop Virtualization is not a silver bullet. I'm not going to run around to my entire enterprise and throw everybody on desktop virtualization. But it is a creature that was created by administrators, not the vendors.

On my first ESX 1.5 box, I fired up my own 2000 Server that I would remote desktop into for administration purposes. I knew it was always on and backed up. BAM: I had VDI. Once I implemented replication, I knew that if my primary site became a smoking hole, I could still get to my admin desktop at a recovery site after a failover. Once other users in my IT shop saw this, the use spread like wild fire to developers etc. I see this over and over again in other shops as well.

While VDI cost is never going to reach the levels of a Citrix/Terminal Services environment due to much less consolidation of users per server, VDI is much easier to manage and get applications running on than a TS solution. And if we design the infrastructure for VDI appropriately given todays hardware (2 way 4 core boxes are becoming the norm in my ESX installs with larger people using 4 way 4 core boxes), and apply VDI correctly to the right users, it can perform properly and have better features at a reduced cost than purchasing, refreshing and managing desktops.


My tinfoil hat...
By UNHchabo on 3/9/2009 3:12:13 PM , Rating: 4
The cynic in me says that Microsoft is just worried that people will run Windows virtualized inside another OS (OSX or Linux), when they need to run Windows apps. Over time, they'll find they need to boot the Windows VM less and less. Then they'll be free of Windows, and won't buy the next version.

I think Microsoft is at least a little worried about this happening. I'm partly cynical about this because I've been using Wubi, and trying to work exclusively within Ubuntu recently.




RE: My tinfoil hat...
By corduroygt on 3/9/2009 5:38:26 PM , Rating: 2
Why would MS be worried about that? You still need a Windows license to install it in a Virtual machine. I use VMWare on OSX, and I needed a valid XP license to use it as a VM. It works really well, by the way.


RE: My tinfoil hat...
By UNHchabo on 3/10/2009 6:00:17 PM , Rating: 2
My point is, what if you keep discovering new apps that you used to use inside your XP VM, and now can use natively in OSX? Eventually, you'll have no use for Windows, and you won't buy Win7!

That's what Microsoft's worried about. As long as you're running Windows natively, you'll probably keep using that "essential" Windows-only app, and you won't look for an alternative, because there's no reason. If you're on OSX though, you'll look first for OSX apps to do the job.


RE: My tinfoil hat...
By gss4w on 3/10/2009 1:22:14 AM , Rating: 2
That might be more of a concern if Linux or OS X offered any advantages over Windows. Very few people are trying to "free" themselves from Windows. Even without considering application support, Windows is better than Linux as a desktop OS for most people. As for OS X, as long as it is limited to only running on Macs (that cost twice as much as PCs on average) it will have limited marketshare.


Cloud Computing/vitualization = Mass transit
By omgwtf8888 on 3/9/2009 4:06:09 PM , Rating: 4
For many of the same reasons that we like to own our car, our own house, we like to own our little hard drive.

Many years ago when computing was young all computers were mainframe and data and programs were essentially cloud stored. Then came the PC, much like the automobile it set us free from that centrallized contolled enviroment.

I believe that Microsoft is right in some ways that virtualization is not needed or practical for everyone. Personal use, small and mid sized businesses will not need cloud computing. These are the same people who really didn't need vista or maybe even windows 7.

To be honest my original Compaq luggable suitcase computer (i was so cool to have that) with its Z88 processor (i think) DOS operating system and 64mb (yes mb) of ram allowed me to do word processing and lotus spreadsheets. Today the majority work is in our building is word processing and spreadsheets. Of course i have dual and quadcore computer with gigabytes of ram and all the bells and whistles. But we are pretty much doing the same thing. So with out some super application to drive our need to get the next best thing, and with only the big boys really seeing cost savings from the cloud, I think we will pass.




By rudy on 3/9/2009 9:00:21 PM , Rating: 2
I agree and also virtualization is basically already here it is the internet. Those things that are right to be virtualized well many already are and more will be. But at the end of the day internet is not so ubiquitous that I can get rid of my computer and netbooks basically represent thin clients already. By the time virtualization is really in full swing a phone sized computer will be as powerful as our current best and so in a sense we will still have all the power and computing we have now in our hand we will just access much more online.


I thought this was obvious...
By Jeff7181 on 3/9/2009 2:21:13 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, there are some good uses for desktop virtualization... testing software on multiple platforms without additional hardware or saving time/money by not rewriting legacy applications for new platforms. Of course students also benefit from desktop virtualization. The ability to work with multiple operating systems simultaneously is nice... as well as the ability to create virtual networks without additional hardware. It's also nice to isolate applications you plan to use temporarily and don't want them to tangle themselves up in your system.




RE: I thought this was obvious...
By bodar on 3/9/2009 3:00:10 PM , Rating: 2
Except that all that you describe can be done with "local" virtual PCs. This article is more about thin clients with VMs running on the the server. There are additional considerations here, esp since a server can be running dozens of VMs and, like cloud computing, your network connection is your lifeline.

The added benefits are that your workstations are much less expensive, since they are either a thin client box or a low-end PC. You can replace workstations much less often and you no longer need to care about blown hard drives losing your data, since it's on the servers. It can also substitute for VPN since you can connect using any browser if you can install the VDI client.


Sun
By sinful on 3/9/2009 8:08:24 PM , Rating: 3
We've seen this before,
Sun has been pushing thin clients forever now - with little success.

As it turns out, after you buy a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and some sort of terminal to hook up to the server, you're only marginally saving compared to the cost of a cheap PC.

Seriously, you can buy a cheapo Dell box, with monitor, for $400-$500.
Oh sure, a dual core 2.0Ghz CPU isn't blazing fast... but how fast do you think you're going to get when you load 20 users on an 8 Core Server, running apps over the network?

Thin clients, by definition, are low-end to begin with.

Second, you've got to upgrade your currently-adequate 100Mb network to 1Gb, because now you're pumping more data over the network. That can be pretty expensive.

Also, any extra savings you get per client is usually eaten by the higher cost of the server; servers you wouldn't be buying if you weren't virtualizing. Additionally, the virtualization application consumes its own resources, so if your clients would normally have 1GB/PC, your server needs 1GB/user + Server overhead.




who is saying VDI is good?
By HighWing on 3/9/2009 2:37:04 PM , Rating: 2
seriously I find this rather interesting that any one/group is promoting Virtual Desktops enough to get MS worried. I certainly haven't heard of anyone touting benefits of VDI. Visualization for servers I hear a lot about. But I don't know anyone in their right mind who would even consider replacing all their machines with thin clients. One of the biggest reasons I have personally experienced is when a user manages to crash an app that requires the server to need a reboot or even locks the server. Then suddenly everyone's work is brought to a halt as the server reboots because of one user. No business likes that risk.

Like some people have already said, this only makes sense for places like libraries, not for corporate businesses.




By greylica on 3/9/2009 3:35:46 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft is king in it´s technics to diminish the pace of other vendors software inovation, and they will do it until they decide what market is better for themselves.
Until then, they will launch a bunch of critics of everything concerning Virtualization, and then launch a proprietary solution with fluffys, or then buy an entire solution with the business itself well mounted and rename it, and in this case, everything they could buy to play for a while...

Same old story. Now with virtualization...




Article is misleading... as usual
By Varun on 3/9/2009 4:14:07 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft is not against Virtualization. They have included it in Windows Server 2008 and even offer a free version. They are saying that it does not make sense for the DESKTOP which IMHO is true. Desktop computers have a lot of horsepower for little money, and trying to move that all into the server room really does not make sense for a lot of workplaces. It would be nice on the support side to do things such as troubleshooting and software updates.

I don't think they are too worried about people moving to Remote Desktop - they charge a fair bit for people to be able to use Remote Desktop to a server. Look at their CAL pricing.

I just think this entire article is very poorly done, and is very misleading. Of course that is nothing new on Dailytech.




Microsoft makes VDI expensive
By Iridium130m on 3/9/2009 6:08:00 PM , Rating: 2
I like how Microsoft has made VDI very expensive for companies to adopt through forcing companies to pay an annual subscription fee for every VDI user PLUS forcing companies to hold Software Assurance on their Fat Clients that access a VDI session. Want to get around SA with a thin client? No problem except MS now charges over significantly more a year to access the session through a thin client.

I like how administrators essentially create a useful new techonology, and Microsoft tries to kill it by over pricing access to it.




By Dribble on 3/10/2009 6:06:20 AM , Rating: 2
But for most users they were rubbish (i.e. slow, and limited), so they never took off outside some specific applications. It's just cheaper and simpler to stick a full PC on your desk then have huge servers and heavyweight networking.

Virtualization is just the same thing, different name. It's still cheap to stick a full PC on someone's desk, and your average corporations networking and server back end are still as woefully inadequate as ever.




For home users, VMs > Clouds
By Donovan on 3/10/2009 12:51:22 PM , Rating: 2
Full desktop virtualization may or may not be the next great thing for low-end business workstations, but for home users it certainly doesn't make sense. Games continue to push the limits of the home PC, hard drives are growing faster than network bandwidth, and we are already seeing enthusiasts adding SSDs to improve access times. Thin clients probably make sense for secondary computers or STBs scattered throughout the home for web browsing and media access, but the main systems will continue to be big, fat, and powerful.

Where Microsoft needs to embrace virtualization is in VMs running on home desktops. Every Windows license should include licenses to run that or any previous Windows version in a VM on that machine. This would significantly reduce complaints about new versions being incompatible with older programs as well as increase sandboxing. Home users should be encouraged to put less stable, less trusted, or temporary programs in VMs so they can limit exposure and ensure 100% clean uninstalls. Microsoft's model for Windows is a sort of "fat virtualization" where the underlying OS is thick and each process is being more and more sandboxed into an isolated computing environment as security on Windows improves. Increasing integration with VM software is a natural extension of this model, and could ultimately reduce customer complaints about Windows stability.

Microsoft should add an interface for VM implementers to use that would allow guest versions of Windows to piggyback on the host Windows activation (this may require a small patch to the guest OS). They can prevent people from using the Windows VMs remotely on thin clients by adding license restrictions and allowing only one or two such clients to run simultaneously. This would also provide a strong reason for VM users to keep Windows as the host OS (Microsoft seems to be worried about this), since Windows clients running under a Linux host could not make use of this feature.




Is it more efficenient?
By toyotabedzrock on 3/11/2009 12:26:25 PM , Rating: 2
It seems to me that there is no advantage to this form of vitalization.

1. It requires more network bandwidth which requires more power.

2. It still requires a power supply at every desk for a thin client.

3. The thin client has idle resources now instead of the server.

All it does is shift computing needs to a separate location which then requires more power since the screen image has to be transfered across the network.

I think the use of terminal server clients is better as it eliminates the overhead of running several copies of the same OS.




VDI is way of the future
By web2dot0 on 3/9/2009 10:18:55 PM , Rating: 1
Here are the list of reasons:

For corporate environment where 99% of the people uses it for web surfing and email, it's perfect. System upgrade is fast and swift. failover support is must easier. TOC is lower because you don't have to refresh h/w as often as PCs.

Other pros: Surfing porn at work will no longer work. In fact anything graphic intensive. This is perfect for alot of companies. We all know sizeable amount of traffic is coming from porn at work even if no one wants to admit it.
Besides, who's going to surf porn over VDI? It's so uncool and taboo, and choppy! :->

Standalone PC still have it's place in development environments and more CPU intensive work. No one wants to do CAD work over VDI, it'll be pretty slow.

The point is most IT environment is not CPU intensive. It's mostly just people receiving emails and what not. No more noising PCs, and IT management rogue PCs installing their own unsupported apps. It's must easier to manage and controlled.




no VMs for W7
By Screwballl on 3/9/09, Rating: -1
RE: no VMs for W7
By Smilin on 3/9/2009 1:33:57 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think that's what it means.


RE: no VMs for W7
By Targon on 3/9/2009 1:42:15 PM , Rating: 2
What it means is that except for running an emulator(compatibility), there really isn't much point to virtualization. Now, Microsoft could and should be at the point where they are running a VM with a true DOS and even Windows 98 machine inside of it at this point. If the current emulation is such a problem, give us the real MS-DOS and Windows 98 with our newer version of Windows, with the appropriate hooks for newer hardware to emulate older hardware.

Then again, I have wanted to see compatibility mode include compatibility with older versions of DirectX, since the slight changes over the years have caused some glitches here and there. Letting us use the REAL code from previous operating systems might do a pretty good job.


RE: no VMs for W7
By ZmaxDP on 3/9/2009 2:19:33 PM , Rating: 2
I have to disagree, we do a lot of short-run HPC stuff in our office, and virtualization works fantastic for us. 60% of our people's time is e-mail / office / etc... The other 40% is running a graphics / single CPU / memory intense application that can easily suck up every last bit of the 8 gigs of Ram and 3 Ghz Core 2 Quads that are in our typical workstation configuration. Running that same app on a virtual machine running on a server with 32 or 64 gigs of RAM is actually faster than running it on our workstations. Why? A lot less crap is installed on the VM, Typically it is the only application running, there are a lot more resources available - need 12 Gigs of Ram then No Problem! Long term, this should allow us to reduce our standard spec from a 5,000 machine to a 1,000 dollar machine at each person's desk. The server pool will grow, but given the downtime we can have a lot less resources and cost in our hardware budget.


RE: no VMs for W7
By chrnochime on 3/9/2009 2:44:27 PM , Rating: 2
Yes the monetary saving would be considerable, but like any other consolidation move by placing all the burden on the servers, if/when the servers die, then the workers won't be able to do squat. Now you have single point of failure, as opposed to multiple. Putting aside this, how many VM sessions do you really think a server can handle before it's slow as molasses?

Cost saving is good, but like the saving goes, don't put all your eggs in one basket...


RE: no VMs for W7
By mcnabney on 3/9/2009 4:08:40 PM , Rating: 2
Who said these are going to be thin-clients. They can still be fat-clients, but those clients will not be running Windows. Computers without Windows save gobs of cash in the corporate environment.


RE: no VMs for W7
By bodar on 3/9/2009 11:14:20 PM , Rating: 2
Are all the servers going to die at once? IIRC, you can buy a fail-over component (at least with VMWare VDI) that lets other servers dynamically "pick up the slack" for a downed server. It's not like, "Oh no, Server2 died. Now the Accounting department is screwed." It just means you need headroom in your infrastructure.

As for VMs, it depends on your hardware. With enough procs and RAM, it's not inconceivable to run 50 VMs on a single blade (a fiber channel SAN helps too). That's why HP is wetting itself trying to push its new blades with VMWare VDI. Power/cooling cost savings for the server room, and hardware cost saving for the workstations.

With VDI, a business can use a scalable blade server to present dozens of VMs to $300 thin client PCs that last twice as long as a typical workstation. It's just like cloud computing, only internal. So you can focus on beefy servers and storage, rather than buying C2D PCs with 2 GB RAM for essentially email and MS Office.


RE: no VMs for W7
By smilingcrow on 3/9/2009 2:26:15 PM , Rating: 2
I’ll have some of what you’ve been smoking as I need to stun the cockroaches before I kill the (not so little) buggers; at least they’ll die with a grin on their faces.


RE: no VMs for W7
By fic2 on 3/9/2009 2:27:26 PM , Rating: 2
I would love virtualization for my sister's family. Her kids are continually putting crap on the family computer. Everytime I go over there I get the "could you take a look at our computer?". If every session was a virtual session it could just get wiped out when that kid is finished.


RE: no VMs for W7
By omnicronx on 3/9/2009 4:56:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What it means is that except for running an emulator(compatibility), there really isn't much point to virtualization.
It means nothing of the sort.. It means to the average home desktop user, Visualization will be no more than an OS testing tool.

I use Virtual Server every day, its perfect for development environments, especially in the area of testing. Our entire testing team works on sandboxed windows OS's to increase productivity, and to eliminate external factors when looking for problems and bugs.

We also have the ability to quickly test various Windows OS's for compatibility, while keeping the amount of hardware needed to a minimum. I currently have 4 virtualized OS's running on my computer as we speak to emulate different provinces in Canada without having to muck with the settings every time.

I think his point is merely that Virtualization is the wave of the future.. for businesses, he is merely trying to downplay is usage in a normal desktop environment (and with good reason).


RE: no VMs for W7
By croc on 3/9/2009 7:44:34 PM , Rating: 2
Virtualization is great for OS's, but it doesn't have the capability (yet) to properly virtualize various hardware combinations. So, in a business environment, buying a new hardware platform will still mean physical testing.

As to thin client on the desktop, this argument has been around now every since the original XT's came out. Back then, it was the 'distributed computing' environment vs. the 'centralized computing' environment. IMO, both have their place. It comes down to cost effeciencies, and warring bean-counters. I expect to see this same argument rearing its ugly head again, in about 10 to 15 years.


RE: no VMs for W7
By omnicronx on 3/9/2009 4:46:14 PM , Rating: 2
Except they are giving it away for free as of Server 2008 SP2.. Comes with one free license with the lowest version too.. unlimited for datacenter.

So.. I really doubt it does not play well in 7, as it is built upon Server 08..


"Mac OS X is like living in a farmhouse in the country with no locks, and Windows is living in a house with bars on the windows in the bad part of town." -- Charlie Miller

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