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  (Source: Nazmus Khandaker)
New cross-platform OS project is unprecedented, arguably largest software project in history

A new report in The Seattle Times interviews some of Microsoft Corp.'s (MSFT) top executives who describe the company's inspired new design direction.  
 
With Windows 9, Microsoft is plotting quite literally the largest software project in history; combining operating systems from at least five platforms, cloud services, and dozens of software projects into one tightly integrated cross-platform bundle of software.
 
It's an incredible vision.  And it's one that could change the entire industry.
 
I. The Path to Unification
 
A major part of why Windows 8 had so many rough edges was because it was an exercise in porting.  But much as Windows Vista was -- in some ways -- a necessary stepping-stone to the more polished and beloved Windows 7, Windows 8 (and 8.1) was necessary as a stepping-stone on the path towards unification.
 
There was always a fair amount of code exchange between the mobile and PC OS trees of Windows.  But in the era of Windows Mobile (2000-2010) that process was more infrequent and sporadic, with development of the two branches largely independent.  With the launch of Windows Phone in 2010, Microsoft found its design direction -- the Modern (Metro) UI.

IE 11 cross platform
 
With Windows 8 and Windows RT, Microsoft looked to have greater code sharing between its various products.  But internally the situation had not substantially improved.  While Microsoft had a unified design and a number of share core features across its platforms, it now had four separate code trees -- Xbox, Windows RT, Windows, and Windows Phone.  Each platform's OS group had a separate design and software team.  When a change was made to core APIs or Modern UI in one of these platforms, it was a time consuming process to port them to the others.  
 
The first change came late last year with a leadership shakeup that unified Microsoft's OS design teams under a single common banner.  With Windows 8.1 and Windows Phone 8.1 (and the Xbox One), Microsoft began the Herculean task of unifying pieces of its API.  But much work remained.
 
Windows 9
[Image Source: Windows Store (Wallpaper App)]

That work is reportedly culminating with Windows 9, Microsoft's first family of consumer-facing operating systems (OSes) to feature fully unified and synchronous development.  According to The Seattle Times, Windows 9 will be a watershed release for Microsoft.
 
On the backend, Microsoft is approaching maximum unification for APIs.  Form factors (touch, small screens, big screen TVs, etc.) mandate some specialist code, but for the most part Microsoft is reportedly aiming to give customers one look and feel across the smartphone, Xbox, tablet, PC, and tabletop computer (Microsoft's Perceptive Pixel offerings).
 
II. The Men Behind Microsoft's Moonshot
 
Two corporate vice presidents are leading the unification effort.  On the software front, David Treadwell, 47, is leading the update.  On the user interface (UI) front, Joey Belfiore (a veteran manager of the Windows Phone team), 46, is leading the effort.
 
Both VPs report to Terry Myerson, executive vice president of Microsoft's Operating Systems Group.  In terms of consumer-facing products, one major result of the shifts in leadership was the emergence of the OS group as the leader in development direction -- a seemingly intuitive shift for a company who became a superpower thanks to its MS-DOS and Windows operating systems.
Terry Myerson
Terry Myerson, Microsoft EVP of OS Group
 
Mr. Myerson gushes about his two lieutenants:
 
Joe is just a magnificent painter. Dave is much more a plumber or electrician.  Together we all come together and build this fabulous house that is Windows.
 
Joe Belfiore
Joe Belfiore, Microsoft OS Group VP of UI Design

From now on, says Mr. Treadwell, expect a release to bring updates to all of Microsoft's major platforms.  He describes this revolutionary approach -- which no other OS maker has achieved yet -- stating:
 
We had to finish Windows 8.1 Update, Windows Phone 8.1, Xbox One.  Now that those are done, we are now on the same logistical schedules. We’re going to have one common OS schedule and everything’s going to be aligned with that. We’re doing common planning now, common priority, common release schedules.
 
David Treadwell
David Treadwell, Microsoft OS Group VP of OS Development

What's more, the report quotes Mr. Treadwell as describing how earlier this year an internal memo circulated to nearly all of Microsoft's teams, generating a consensus set of features for the next generation multi-platform operating system.  Mr. Treadwell describes:
 
Before, there was a Windows team, a Windows Phone team, an Xbox team. While there was general agreement of the value of (having a) common core and consistency of design, there were organizational lines that we had to cross to achieve that. There just aren’t these barriers now. 
 
And these efforts weren’t limited just to the OS developers.  They also worked with Microsoft's software and enterprise teams, including the teams responsible for Azure, Office, Bing, and Skype.  The result is that Windows 9 should be giving each Microsoft software project the tools it needs to create a next generation experience.

The software side of things has already come to bear with Microsoft's "Universal Apps", which offer quick porting of a single app across the PC, (HD) tablet, smartphone, and Xbox, with common permissions and bundled customer purchase options.
 
III. Why Windows 9 is a Game Changer
 
During Steve Ballmer's 14-year reign as CEO of Microsoft, there were some high notes, but in terms of market direction Microsoft undoubtedly lost some of its glow to consumers and investors.  Companies like Apple, Inc. (AAPL) and Google Inc. (GOOG) emerged as real threats to Microsoft's hegemony of personal computing.
 
But with Satya Nadella's tireless commitment to cloud-back services and a unified Microsoft -- his "One Microsoft" vision -- Microsoft appears poised to be producing the most massive and efficient multi-platform project in history.

OneDrive
 
Both Apple and Google are headed in a similar direction. OS X 10.10 is expected to take design cues from iOS 7.  But neither company appears as far along as Microsoft.  What Microsoft is planning -- a singular cross platform update for large computers, consoles, PCs, tablets, and smartphones -- is unprecedented.  It's never been done.  Microsoft is also working to tightly integrate its packed stable of consumer software offerings into these updates, and it's an incredible vision from a technical perspective.

While casual consumers can look forward to a higher degree of polish, there's plenty for power users and enthusiasts to eagerly await, as well.  Microsoft has already stated that either Windows 8.2 (an interim release) or Windows 9 will feature the return of the Start Menu to Desktop Mode.  What's more, Microsoft engineers have hinted that Windows 9 may at last introduce multiple switchable desktops, a much beloved feature from Linux.

Windows: return of the Start Menu
Microsoft is bringing the sexy Start Menu back.  [Image Source: Redmond Pie]
 
Windows 9 is on pace for an April 2015 release.  Windows for tablets and smartphones is expected to continue to be free to OEMs, a major edge over Google's Android which brings licensing fees of $5-15 USD per device to Microsoft.

Needless to say, if Microsoft delivers what its promising with Windows 9, it could be a game changer for the entire industry, the effects of which could be felt for decades to come.

Source: The Seattle Times



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This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Nice marketing piece.
By kamiller422 on 6/2/2014 11:41:02 AM , Rating: 3
This article reads like Microsoft marketing. Is it a sponsored article?

"New cross-platform OS project is unprecedented, arguably largest software project in history"

"Microsoft is plotting quite literally the largest software project in history"

"Windows 9 will be a watershed release for Microsoft."

"Microsoft appears poised to be producing the most massive and efficient multi-platform project in history."

"if Microsoft delivers what its promising with Windows 9, it could be a game changer for the entire industry, the effects of which could be felt for decades to come."

My wife and I used to joke about every new release of a Robert De Niro movie. Why? Because it was always promoted with quotes from critics saying something to the effect of "De Niro's finest performance ever!" The movie companies kept coming back with that line over and over with every new release. It begins to lose its meaning, especially when it's not true. You end up not believing. It becomes rote and a joke.

That's Microsoft today and glowing articles like this one. "Microsoft's finest X to date!" Microsoft's problem is philosophical, and no API unification is going to fix it.




RE: Nice marketing piece.
By Reclaimer77 on 6/2/2014 11:46:14 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Is it a sponsored article?


*cough* Jason Mick *cough*

LOL I'm kidding...but sometimes I wonder :)


By HoosierEngineer5 on 6/2/2014 1:05:17 PM , Rating: 2
"Microsoft's first family of consumer-facing operating systems"

I am one consumer who would rather not be 'faced' by an operating system. It sounds too painful.


RE: Nice marketing piece.
By geddarkstorm on 6/2/2014 11:35:29 PM , Rating: 1
Especially when you consider there is nothing "unprecedented" about this. Ubuntu has been doing the same thing long -before- Microsoft with its Unity project -- one OS from phones to desktop.

In all truth, Microsoft is late to the party; except, Windows 8 was already their first attempt to unify across the markets! 8's rough edges had nothing to do with porting, and simply trying to force everyone to use a tablet optimized OS with weakened multitasking and without room to fully customize it to be efficient in other scenarios.

Windows 9 is obviously -more of the same-. Nothing new, nothing innovative, nothing earth shattering in that regard. At least so far as we see here. I really take exception at this "unprecedented" claim.


RE: Nice marketing piece.
By RjBass on 6/3/2014 9:55:49 AM , Rating: 3
No the idea isn't new. Ubuntu did it, as my son showed me with his Ubuntu desktop, laptop and phone, and so did Apple to a degree with the release of their first iPad. OSX for desktops and laptops was still different, but you had the same OS on both your phone and tablet. That was something that I thought really hurt MS since you had a similar but different OS for your phone, tablet and PC.

So the idea isn't new, but the approach and vision for what MS is doing here is. MS isn't just phones and PC's, they are also tablets and game consoles. They are a software company that also produces hardware. If they pull this off, they could in theory bring this same vision to SmartTV's and other electronics.

No it's not new and they are certainly not the first to try to do this, but they will be the first to expand it to so many different products in an attempt to truly unify all devices. If it works, and if they do it, it could really be something amazing.


RE: Nice marketing piece.
By CaedenV on 6/4/2014 11:30:23 AM , Rating: 2
Ubuntu has been the only one to pull this off so far... but then again they are Ubuntu, which is a Linux distro that pretty much all of my Linux using friends have disowned over the last 4-5 years (though I have to admit that I like it even if they don't). While a great technical leap forward, Ubuntu is simply never going to have enough of a market to matter.

But outside of Ubuntu? Pretty much nobody.
Google is slowly merging Chrome OS, Google Chrome, and Android; but unless they are going to come out with an unexpected announcement then I would guess that progress is not coming along all that well.
Apple has essentially said that they have no interest in merging iOS and OSX, saying that it is fine to have different OSs on different devices so long as the services and features are portable. If anything Apple will continue developing their ARM chips to offer iOS laptops and all-in-ones for the consumer market, and just leave OSX to the 'professional' market. Sort of a win98 vs winNT differentiation... but without all of the security issues.

But MS has been working towards this goal for a long time. Development on WP7 and win8 was the real start of things where they were attempting to come up with a UI that would work in spite of screen sizes and input methods, and while there are sacrifices, the MetroUI has come a long ways towards being useful, and may succeed at that as they continue to refine it. But with Metro came not only an interface, but a roadmap towards unifying development across the board. Each and every release/update after WP7 has brought more and more parody across platforms, and with win9 they will finally be done bringing parody so that they can push the platform in a direction (hopefully forward... but this is MS).

But to say that MS is behind on this when they are actually ahead of all of the other big players, is a bit silly.


*clap, clap, clap*
By CaedenV on 6/2/2014 3:27:50 PM , Rating: 2
I applaud you MS! This has been a long time coming, and I am glad to finally start to see it. The last few years in making this possible have had several growing pains, but it looks like Win9 is going to be a real gem, and finally give Apple and Google a run for their money across the board.

This is sadly much bigger news than anything at the Apple conference today. I had high hopes for this conference as the focus was all on softwae... but it looks like 100 little tweaks without direction just like the last 2-3 releases. I may not be an Apple fan, but Apple needs to continue to see success. If they keep wandering around aimlessly then it is going to be a world of Google and Microsoft... which is a much worse world than the world of Apple and MS... or even Apple, and Google, and MS.




RE: *clap, clap, clap*
By tonyswash on 6/4/2014 2:52:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

Replying To: *clap, clap, clap*
by CaedenV on June 2, 2014 at 3:27 PM

I applaud you MS! This has been a long time coming, and I am glad to finally start to see it. The last few years in making this possible have had several growing pains, but it looks like Win9 is going to be a real gem, and finally give Apple and Google a run for their money across the board.



Remember this?

www.extremetech.com/computing/55256-preview-micro softs-windows-longhorn
[The URL was altered to comply with DT's absurd spam filter]

Compared to what Apple actually delivered at WWDC Microsoft's 'Moonshot' is just smoke in the wind. By the time it arrives the world would have moved on. They are not even skating to where the puck is now but rather to where it was a while ago.

I don't know what WWDC you were watching but I was watching the one that blew away the developer community and tech observers with it's avalanche of new, and often very big, announcements. Metal, Swift, Continuity, Homekit, Health Kit, iCloud kit. So much and a lot of it totally unexpected. Instead of the still vapourware attempt by Microsoft to build one giant OS covering everything (why?) Apple simply solved today's user problems of working on a variety of different devices whilst keep the OS for each platform appropriate.

Did anyone notice Apple's ongoing evolution of it's very ambitious progressive shafting of Google? Apple's revenge on Google will be perfectly crafted, Bevels, Liquid Metal, Sapphire and all.

This comment about WWDC was very interesting:

quote:
I am amazed at what people miss. “Phone numbers ride on something called a Publicly Switched Network, PSN for short. iDevices just became part of the PSN network. And this actually makes Apple’s network facilities a virtual phone company. Every Mac will be able to make and receive phone calls. And this will allow developers to build in smart calling features into every application… But further, Apple showed off a new communication protocol that allows secure communication between applications via OSX and iOS. This is how the ‘internet of things’ will have to communicate in order that we are not vulnerable to life disruption via hacking. (Think of Googles self-driving car running on a version of Android that is network enabled, BEYOND SCARY).”


RE: *clap, clap, clap*
By retrospooty on 6/4/2014 4:17:32 PM , Rating: 2
MS doesnt need all that. The entire world still runs off MS software, including every system at every factory that makes every Mac and iDevice.. MS needs one thing and they did it.
This screenshot: http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/Windows_8_x_Sta...

1. Windowed Metro apps
2. Hybrid non full screen start menu with live tiles (Whoot!)
3. Live tiles in the same configurable size options as Win8.1 (Large with detailed info, medium with highlight info, and small to save space).

That single screenshot shows us everything that they broke in the past 3 years is fixed. Not only fixed, but the hybrid start menu takes the best of the new and the old and somehow makes it better than the sum of its parts.


RE: *clap, clap, clap*
By tonyswash on 6/4/2014 6:47:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS doesnt need all that. The entire world still runs off MS software, including every system at every factory that makes every Mac and iDevice.. MS needs one thing and they did it.
This screenshot: http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/Windows_8_x_Sta...

1. Windowed Metro apps
2. Hybrid non full screen start menu with live tiles (Whoot!)
3. Live tiles in the same configurable size options as Win8.1 (Large with detailed info, medium with highlight info, and small to save space).

That single screenshot shows us everything that they broke in the past 3 years is fixed. Not only fixed, but the hybrid start menu takes the best of the new and the old and somehow makes it better than the sum of its parts.


But is ‘one OS to rule them all’ the answer to Microsoft’s key strategic problem which is that for various reasons the marginal price of software is approaching zero.


RE: *clap, clap, clap*
By tonyswash on 6/4/2014 7:12:25 PM , Rating: 2
Just came across this - I think you might find it amusing - I did :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ3RLSK_bGc


RE: *clap, clap, clap*
By retrospooty on 6/4/2014 7:43:38 PM , Rating: 2
LOL. Classic.


Joe Belfiore - Is that you Sly?
By XZerg on 6/2/2014 1:24:27 PM , Rating: 4
When I look at Joe Belfiore, i see Slyvester Stallone skinny with a fashion guru makeover...




RE: Joe Belfiore - Is that you Sly?
By WT on 6/3/2014 7:46:36 AM , Rating: 2
Hahaaaa, OMG, I couldn't quite place who he reminded me of, but that is SPOT ON !!


By retrospooty on 6/3/2014 5:44:31 PM , Rating: 2
I dont know if I see that. It looks more like an old man Chachi with a bad wig.

- Either way, his hair makes me want to punch him in the face really bad. ;)


By someguy743 on 6/3/2014 4:12:51 PM , Rating: 2
I actually kind of like Windows 8.1 ... but only after I added a few other pieces of software. Stardock's "Start8" and this multi-desktop software called "Dexpot".

I particularly like the "Desktop Preview" feature where you have this box that pops down from the top center of the screen when I roll the cursor over it.

This box shows all 6 of my desktops. You just click the one you want and go to it. You go to a unique desktop set up with icons however you want them. You can organize each of your desktops by project or whatever category you want.

Bottom line, I hope that Windows 9 brings back the start menu and it can do everything that Dexpot can ... only a lot better.

There's a few annoying things in Dexpot I would like Microsoft to fix like simply doing copy/paste or cut/paste to copy/move icons from one desktop to the other. With Dexpot you have to use this "Desktop Windows" thing to do it.




By retrospooty on 6/3/2014 5:40:04 PM , Rating: 3
"I hope that Windows 9 brings back the start menu and it can do everything that Dexpot can"

I think we are already seeing what it will do with the 8.2 (supposed August update) will bring.

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/Windows_8_x_Sta...

From that screenshot we can see a few things.

1. Windowed Metro apps
2. Hybrid non full screen start menu with live tiles (Whoot!)
3. Live tiles in the same configurable size options as Win8.1 (Large with detailed info, medium with highlight info, and small to save space).

To that I say - clap... clap... clap... It looks perfect. Well done MS. A bit late and like pulling teeth getting there, but you knocked it out of the park on that one.


By retrospooty on 6/3/2014 5:43:05 PM , Rating: 2
I meant to add, if what we can obviously see from that screenshot is all that they do, and they do nothing else at all, I am happy. Anything on top of that is just gravy.


out of sequence
By Matman on 6/4/2014 3:23:28 AM , Rating: 2
*rolls up newspaper*

NO! Bad Microsoft.

Windows 9 should be to 8 what 7 was to Vista, refine existing technology and correct/remove the UI horrors and failed experiments.

Now is not the time to be playing Longhorn all over again. Save that for Windows 10.




RE: out of sequence
By retrospooty on 6/4/2014 11:20:55 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with your sentiment and dislike of the "UI horrors" of Win 8, but they have already announced that Win 8.2 will fix that. The pic above with the hybrid start menu is 8.2 (due as a free update this fall) not 9. So, it looks like 8.1 fixed a few UI issues, 8.1 spring update (from April) fixed a few more and 8.2's fall update with fix the rest - at least the major ones.


RE: out of sequence
By CaedenV on 6/4/2014 11:54:02 AM , Rating: 2
... Isnt that exactly what win9 will be for desktop users? Refine Metro, bring the desktop and floating apps to appease power and business users, and add a few performance improvements to the platform?

It is WP and winRT which are getting the big shifts here. When WP8 was launched MS promised that all devices would be able to get updates for at least 18 months. Lo and behold, every WP device launched since the Lumia 1520/1320 has had a quad core processor in it. Even the lowly Lumia 530 which is a sub $100 device is rumored to have a quad core on board, as well as all of the Chinese cheap-o phones that have been announced recently.
My guess here is that this is not an issue of win9 developing a new platform or core, so much as it is WP9 running an essentially full version of Windows (granted with a phone UI).
Sadly, I think this means that we pre-1520 users will have to upgrade our devices... but they will be over 2 years old, so upgrading a phone at that point is not unreasonable. Still, I think win9 will be a big refinement just as win7 was to Vista. If you want to worry about new platform bugs then look to future winRT and WP devices.

Besides, have you ever run Vista on a modern machine? I mean, when Vista came out it was still considered 'normal' to only install 256MB of Ram in a desktop. Onboard video cards still routinely choked on simple DVD playback. 64bit drivers were practically unheard of before Vista made 64bit standard, unless you count 64bit XP and lived through that hell. While MS should have seen it coming and toned the OS down a notch, Vista was a failure because MS bit off more than hardware makers could chew at the time. Win7 is surely better than Vista, but had it been released in place of Vista then it would have choked on bad drivers and underpowered hardware all the same.


By someguy743 on 6/3/2014 7:17:00 PM , Rating: 2
Servers and workstation PCs are about to INSANELY fast in the next few years once these new NVMe solid state drives based on PCIe 3.0 get cheap enough. I can't wait. No more waiting around for anything on computers. These new SSDs are supposed to be far more durable and long lasting too.

I just drooled all over my keyboard when I read this Anandtech article today ...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8104/intel-ssd-dc-p3...




By CaedenV on 6/4/2014 12:07:51 PM , Rating: 2
No kidding. I mean, SSDs are fast, but this new batch is going to be stupid fast. And some of the pro drives coming out are so durable and reliable now that we are starting to see 10 year warranties! Meanwhile HDDs have dropped from 7, to 5, to 3, and now many HDDs only having a 1 year warranty. SSDs still need to come down in price a bit, but people would be silly to even consider a computer running OS and programs on something other than a SSD or flash media of some sort. Even SD cards and flash drives are faster than HDDs anymore, and they are becoming as cheap or cheaper per GB while offering advantages in density and power usage.

Now that WD, Seagate, and Toshiba all own SSD technology, I would bet that within the next 5 years they just kill off HDDs entirely. They are going to go the way of the floppy in short order.


Weakest Link...
By croc on 6/4/2014 1:42:11 AM , Rating: 2
That's the issue that I have with this 'unified OS' crap... An OS has to be built for a given processor family for it to truly take advantage of that processor. I mean, a Xeon is NOT the same as your standard ARM processor, is it? If I have a Xeon, I DON'T want it 'dumbed down' to an ARM's level. If I have an x86 / 64 bit instruction set, why would I want an OS built for an ARM's 16 / 32 bit instruction set? Or a Qualcomm's even smaller instruction set?

In order to build a unified OS it MUST be built to standards determined by the lowest common denominator... The weakest link.




RE: Weakest Link...
By epobirs on 6/7/2014 1:55:24 PM , Rating: 2
That simply isn't how it works. A single OS can be tweaked to cover a vast range of hardware and applications. Consider the myriad variations of Unix (including Linux, Android, iOS) reaching from handheld devices to supercomputers.

In the specific case of Windows, NT has design elements from the beginning to simplify porting across different processor architectures. Back when NT was first developed it was expected that x86 was going to peak very soon and it was anybody's guess what would be the next big architecture, so it was important to be portable. (Intel surprised everyone, including itself.) The HAL (hardware abstraction layer) is a major component of the OS in NT and most other systems have similar mechanisms. Getting the HAL wrong, if you were trying to migrate an existing installation to substantially different hardware, used to be a good way to seriously break a setup. Since Vista/2008 Server, Windows figures out the correct HAL on every boot instead of assuming the last one used is still correct.


Unrelated
By phatboye on 6/3/2014 4:03:52 AM , Rating: 3
I know this is totally unrelated and has nothing to do with the topic, but I am beginning to believe MS will never release a 2nd service pack for Win7.




Exciting
By Grimer21 on 6/2/2014 11:02:08 AM , Rating: 2
I, for one, am excited.




1/14/2020
By villageidiotintern on 6/2/2014 12:58:33 PM , Rating: 2
I'm good. MS will have plenty of time to putter around with this.




Vista
By Scootie on 6/2/2014 3:00:37 PM , Rating: 3
Many people only remember how awfull Vista was the first day it came out. And by the universe it truelly was. However, there is a little secret noone knows about Vista. Somehow, with sp2, that operating system became vary stable and usable. I still install it on many systems of my clients who have the Vista license sticker and they are happy with it. But only if use straigth Vista sp2 pack otherwise forget it. I dare to say that a Vista HP or Business works almost as great as Win 7 HP or Pro. I dare you try them out. :)




RE: Vista
By theplaidfad on 6/3/14, Rating: -1
Windows SAA
By name99 on 6/2/2014 11:30:35 PM , Rating: 2
Why call it Windows 9. Why not be accurate and call it Windows SAA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_Application_A...




AERO...?
By BaronMatrix on 6/3/2014 12:13:50 AM , Rating: 2
Only Aero... It should be expanded for the desktop... 3D should be expanded for the desktop...

To go from Alpha-Blended Chrome and TaskBar to Flat Colors is a downgrade...

I'm NOT worried about battery life...

Squared windows went away with Win9x...

No Aero, No deal...




MS Windows 9 announcement
By lostvyking on 6/3/2014 2:22:05 PM , Rating: 2
I sense that they put this up to counter Apple's announcements today of their OS 8.




By wildwestgoh on 6/3/2014 9:16:18 PM , Rating: 2
Unify? So we can play Xbox games with Windows 9 in the future? Looking forward if this "can" happen.




By fteoath64 on 6/6/2014 9:42:21 AM , Rating: 2
It will take a decade to complete such an OS properly, by then, it is obsolete as OSX 10.35 rolls over, Ubuntu 20.04 rolls out, Android 11.0 Crazy Cat release to worldwide acclaim. So it is a losing proposition for MS. Win RT has shown that their commitment on the Arm code side has been weak and needs a ton of work and new people as well. Without a strong infusion of OSX, Linux experienced people in the team, the product going to be full of holes and feature deficiencies. It is better they evolve the separate OS to integrate rather than using Win 8.1 as the assimulating force.




By Hakuryu on 6/2/2014 11:08:32 AM , Rating: 1
Because if they try to force me into using a phone UI for my PC, I'll be using 7 for quite a while.

History tells us the next Windows will be a great one, but I'm not holding my breath with this news.




I could be persuaded
By Ammohunt on 6/2/2014 4:30:21 PM , Rating: 1
Start menu and switch-able desktops(finally!) could be enough to consider replacing windows 7.




Linux Mint
By wasteoid on 6/3/2014 1:24:56 AM , Rating: 1
It works fine right after easy install, has a very similar UI to MS Windows, such that the learning curve is low to use it.

For me, the only reason to boot to Windows 7 is to play games, and now Linux is gaining in the gaming area. Everything else, I use Linux Mint. I forgot how stable Linux is until after I installed Windows and ended up with an annoying blue screen reboot.




Opps!
By SDBud on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
outsourced
By cyberserf on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
Fast learners
By bug77 on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 10:11:13 AM , Rating: 3
Not really... The problem with 8 was the UI for the 2 different interfaces was merged. So long as there are options so anyone can choose to use the touch interface or the kb/mouse interface it can work just fine.


RE: Fast learners
By Spuke on 6/2/2014 10:17:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So long as there are options so anyone can choose to use the touch interface or the kb/mouse interface it can work just fine.
Explain to me what the kb/mouse or the touch interface is. I use 8.1 daily and I haven't seen that option.


RE: Fast learners
By Digimonkey on 6/2/2014 10:24:29 AM , Rating: 3
I believe he is referring to what Microsoft has talked about with re-adding the start menu. They would basically detect if you have a mouse and add a start menu if you do, if you don't it wouldn't be there. So the GUI would be adjusted based on the device type, but the underlying core and API would be unified.


RE: Fast learners
By Spuke on 6/2/2014 1:16:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I believe he is referring to what Microsoft has talked about with re-adding the start menu.
Thanks but based on his comment below it seems he's talking about the current Win8.1 not future releases. I'm still not seeing where there is a differentiated UI in the present version.


RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 8:05:24 PM , Rating: 2
??? No, that is exactly what I was talking about. There are 2 things.

- 1: The UI's converging
- 2: The OS's converging

Win 8 converged the UI's (IMO) badly for users that still had a KB mouse. That seems to be resolved in 8.2 this fall with the hybrid UI and the windowed metro apps.

The post I was replying to was saying "they did #1 badly so the answer is to do #2. I was saying the 2 are separate and they are already fixing #1, so #2 wont necessarily be bad.


RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 10:59:26 AM , Rating: 4
"Explain to me what the kb/mouse or the touch interface is. I use 8.1 daily and I haven't seen that option."

There isnt an option, that is the problem with 8 and why everyone was so pissed. The comment above said they screwed up converging 2 and the answer is to add more... I commented to say the convergence wasn't the issue, it was forcing a single UI for totally different interfaces (kb/mouse or the touch) that was the issue.

We have already heard that Win8.2 fixes that with the hybrid start menu (pic above). I was simply saying that it can be done if done right and options given for the UI.


RE: Fast learners
By bug77 on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Fast learners
By Etsp on 6/2/2014 10:35:48 AM , Rating: 5
I disagree. There have been a number of new features and enhancements in Windows 8 over Windows 7 unrelated to the "modern" UI.


RE: Fast learners
By bug77 on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 11:29:18 AM , Rating: 2
It is alot when you look at 8.1. Also,. $200? Where on Earth do you buy stuff, Beverly Hills?

Try $119 MSRP, but it can be found much cheaper.

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-8-1-Full-V...


RE: Fast learners
By Reclaimer77 on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 11:54:59 AM , Rating: 3
Agreed. I wouldn't pay a cent for it. I was just wondering where he got that price info. It's $92 at Amazon for the full retail non-OEM version.

As for potentially "worth it" the new Hybrid UI is supposed to be added to 8.2 as a free upgrade, so to me that is worth it at that point. I actually like it. Somehow the combo of both is better than either based on what we have seen so far. IMHO


RE: Fast learners
By DT_Reader on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 1:02:16 PM , Rating: 3
You just added a whole lot of stuff that has nothing to do with Win 8 or anything about upgrading OS's for that matter. After reading your post, I agree with you though, you should stay on Win 7.

BTW, if you arent already backed up, your asking for trouble. Your drive can die at any second.


RE: Fast learners
By Spuke on 6/2/2014 1:56:55 PM , Rating: 2
My cost was $39 for the Win8 upgrade (from Win7). 8.1 was free. Well worth it for that price. If I had to pay $100, I would've waited till my next system upgrade.


RE: Fast learners
By bug77 on 6/2/2014 1:21:14 PM , Rating: 2
I think I was looking at the price for Win8.1 Pro. As you correctly anticipated, OEM licenses are not for me, I like ti upgrade stuff on my PC.


RE: Fast learners
By Etsp on 6/2/2014 12:00:12 PM , Rating: 4
Those weren't actually the features I was referring to, but as a power user I really like the new copy file dialog and the improved task manager.

I was thinking more along the lines of HyperV and Storage Spaces (used along-side ReFS) and File History, along with the tighter integration of OneDrive. Also dual-monitor support for the taskbar is nice.


RE: Fast learners
By DT_Reader on 6/2/2014 12:25:29 PM , Rating: 2
I've had the ability to mount ISO images since XP, thanks to a free Microsoft utility that still works in Windows 7 and that Microsoft is still giving away: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.as...

P.S. It says "CD-ROM Control Panel" but it works with DVD ISO images, too.


RE: Fast learners
By Mr Perfect on 6/2/2014 12:58:53 PM , Rating: 1
Holy shit, that's cool. I've seen similar programs from less reputable sources and never wanted to risk using them. This one at least won't have a hidden bitcoing mining function or something in it. :P

Well, I'm off to see if this works with Diablo 1. Can't believe that game streams everything off the freaking disk... It's as slow today as it was back in 2000.


RE: Fast learners
By Reclaimer77 on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 11:00:55 AM , Rating: 2
Then you haven't bothered to read the spec list. There are a ton of improvements. Nothing revolutionary, but it is certainly a good evolutionary step.


RE: Fast learners
By Reclaimer77 on 6/2/2014 12:07:31 PM , Rating: 1
The problem was it took usability backwards to the point that none of those improvements mattered.


RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 2:21:27 PM , Rating: 2
Yup... The forced UI was certainly borked big time. At least they are fixing it soon though.


RE: Fast learners
By Spuke on 6/2/2014 7:08:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The problem was it took usability backwards to the point that none of those improvements mattered.
For you. Works great for me.


RE: Fast learners
By Samus on 6/2/2014 1:46:10 PM , Rating: 3
bug77, Windows 8 is a huge evolution over Windows 7, just like Vista was over XP, and Windows 2000 (NT kernel) was over Windows 9x.

Windows 8 is the first fully-native UEFI Windows OS, with a new WINPE environment, numerous network and kernel stack optimizations, and uncountable security improvements.

It doesn't even "feel" like Windows 7 at the desktop level. Once your used to Windows 8, going back to Windows 7 feels like going back to XP in some ways.


RE: Fast learners
By DT_Reader on 6/2/2014 12:09:14 PM , Rating: 2
So "Metro" apps, which you can only buy from the Microsoft Store, will now run on the desktop via the Start menu?

And legacy desktop programs, which you "side load" to the PC, will now run on the "Metro" side of the OS? And will run on Phones and the Xbox?

Somehow I doubt either of those will happen. Legacy Microsoft programs, such as Office, will fade away into the cloud. Legacy 3rd-party programs, such as Autocad, will continue to only run on the desktop and their vendors will be pressured to drop support for the desktop and get with the "Metro" program.

They'd just better continue to allow "side loading" of 3rd-party desktop programs; if the only way to obtain software is via the Microsoft Store then they'll lose a lot of corporate customers to the Mac - unless Apple closes the Mac when they unify OS-X and iOS. Then they'll both be daring their corporate customers to jump to Linux, and with Google Docs, why not?


RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 12:24:51 PM , Rating: 2
"So "Metro" apps, which you can only buy from the Microsoft Store, will now run on the desktop via the Start menu?"

Yes, it's been announced and you can even see it on the screenshot above. It will be in the August update Win8.2 free...

"And legacy desktop programs, which you "side load" to the PC, will now run on the "Metro" side of the OS?"

I hadnt heard that. Not sure.

"They'd just better continue to allow "side loading" of 3rd-party desktop programs"

Of course they will... It's Windows. That has always been fine. At least on the PC/Desktop/Laptop side.


RE: Fast learners
By Argon18 on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Fast learners
By Motoman on 6/2/2014 1:07:21 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, because a company with 95% OS installed rate on all PCs worldwide, and 99% in the corporate world, and with 99% office suite install rate in the corporate world, and probably at least 90% total, so on and so forth is clearly no longer relevant.

Now, Apple on the other hand with ~5% of the general OS market, and ~1% of corporate...that's a contender. As is Linux with like 1.5% total share. Yup. Clearly those are your relevant players - not Microsoft.


RE: Fast learners
By momorere on 6/2/2014 1:08:17 PM , Rating: 5
20+ years now we all have been waiting on the "year of Linux desktop". That lost it's hilarity around 19 years ago. Go troll somewhere else Linux neckbeard.


RE: Fast learners
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 1:10:01 PM , Rating: 3
"Go troll somewhere else Linux neckbeard."

LOL... It took me a while to post I just kept laughing.

Sigh... Argon is something else isnt he. LOL.


RE: Fast learners
By Motoman on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
Will need to see.
By Monkey's Uncle on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Will need to see.
By Digimonkey on 6/2/2014 10:05:05 AM , Rating: 5
Depends. Windows 8 was at least stable, which is something that couldn't be said for the other two. Vista was somewhat understandable as their was a major rework in the way drivers worked. Windows ME was just a complete POS without any excuse.


RE: Will need to see.
By Etsp on 6/2/2014 10:10:03 AM , Rating: 2
Pretty much what I logged in to say. Vista's biggest problem was hardware drivers.

I use Windows 8.1 (and 8 before that) on a daily basis with a keyboard and mouse. Yes, there are definitely some steps back in the UI, but overall it's a very stable and solid system.

I can't speak to how lean it is, as I have a LOT of extra ram so I can spin up some VM's in HyperV.


RE: Will need to see.
By Samus on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: Will need to see.
By Etsp on 6/2/2014 4:34:55 PM , Rating: 2
I had plenty of RAM in my system, so my IO issue with Vista was that Superfetch would get stuck on certain files and just keep reading it, for hours. Really annoying.


RE: Will need to see.
By Silver2k7 on 6/2/2014 10:15:55 PM , Rating: 2
Win7 Ultimate x64 installed only a few months ago still 20GB.


RE: Will need to see.
By Silver2k7 on 6/2/2014 10:19:53 PM , Rating: 3
Nothing wrong with an OS taking 20GB or more in 2014.
SSD's are finally starting to get decently sized. We finally start seeing 1TB consumer drives with Samsung 840 EVO for example.


RE: Will need to see.
By stm1185 on 6/2/2014 11:37:47 PM , Rating: 2
Yep and furthermore with the proliferation of cloud services and online streaming, the need to have large amount of files on the PC is going down.

No video collection anymore, Netflix/Amazon/..., no music collection anymore, Spotify, short term work files in the cloud, long term backed up on external.

Games are the only thing really taking up my HD space these days. For most people that won't be an issue. If I removed all my games, I'd probably only be using 40-50gb of my 250gb drive.


RE: Will need to see.
By name99 on 6/3/2014 1:44:41 AM , Rating: 2
Uhh --- it IS a problem if you have delusions (as MS appears to) that this same OS is going to be used everywhere from home automation (smart lightbulbs, Dropcam) to auto UIs to set top boxes (which are AppleTV sized rather than Xbox sized) to servers...


RE: Will need to see.
By Spuke on 6/2/2014 10:15:04 AM , Rating: 5
Agreed, Win8 was NOTHING like ME or Vista. It's extremely stable and the under the hood changes are make it well worth using. Jesus people, there's more to an OS than the GUI. You know, the more time I spend here the more I realize just how many tech noobs there are on this site. And some of you act like straight up basic users.


RE: Will need to see.
By synapse46 on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: Will need to see.
By Flunk on 6/2/2014 11:08:40 AM , Rating: 2
Only if you arbitrarily define your concept of Windows 8 to not include the Windows 8.1 service pack. Microsoft changing their naming scheme on updates to be more obvious doesn't make a new OS.

Anyway, each one of these is better than the last.

Window Me -> Unstable, never fully fixed
Windows Vista -> Initially drivers were unavailable or unstable (Especially graphics cards).
Windows 8 -> Unpopular UI changes.

Here's hoping they get it right with Windows 9. Converging the OSes is a good idea, but it's very difficult to do well in practice. If it doesn't work out there are plenty of OS alternatives.


RE: Will need to see.
By Bateluer on 6/2/2014 6:52:55 PM , Rating: 4
"Windows Vista -> Initially drivers were unavailable or unstable (Especially graphics cards)."

Point of clarification, only Nvidia graphics cards. AMD cards were 100% stable with fully WHQL certified drivers available before Vista's launch day.


RE: Will need to see.
By p05esto on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: Will need to see.
By Chaser on 6/2/2014 11:57:49 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I spend here the more I realize just how many tech noobs there are on this site.
Thank you.

Today when I go to Windows 7 or older it's a let down. I have to adjust myself.

But with the broken record Windows 8 naysayers I envision those people slowly moving their mice carefully up and down their start menus wearing coke bottle reading glasses like a person stuck in the middle of Manhattan with a paper map.


RE: Will need to see.
By inperfectdarkness on 6/3/2014 2:48:58 AM , Rating: 2
I tend to agree. The biggest "hurdle" to a fresh install of Win 8.0 is the leg-work required to get to 8.1 AND familiarizing yourself with a workaround for not having a start menu (i.e. a folder called "start menu" in the lower left corner that has shortcuts to all your frequently used programs).

Once you get it up and running, it's a fantastic OS--and imho--better than Win 7. There's minor gripes like the windows button taking you to the metro interface, but you get used to using Win-F or something instead.

Most of all though, it takes 20 seconds from the time I click "reboot" until I have a login screen. So I'm a believer.


RE: Will need to see.
By sheh on 6/3/2014 9:27:30 AM , Rating: 2
That's your current workaround? How about ClassicShell?


RE: Will need to see.
By inperfectdarkness on 6/3/2014 2:40:14 AM , Rating: 2
What worries me about 9 is that sometimes when you try an merge too many things together, it becomes woefully bloated and inefficient. Take DHS for example...or all of Washington DC in general. Reaching "too far, too fast" is what caused 8 to be a clusterf**k. And I say this as a windows 8.1 user.

I'm also worried about background resource hogging, not so much for gaming PC's, but for consoles & smartphones...this could be a potential issue.

P.S.
Because of the unified OS, expect that PC gaming it going to take another hit. Don't be surprised if the cheapest 9th gen console is in the neighborhood of $700; hardcore PC gamers aren't going to be able to generate sufficient demand to keep the trickle-down tech process rolling in favor of consoles.

P.P.S.
Doesn't MS's press-releases on this seem like more of an apology for "we dun f**ked up"--rather than a "hey, look at this cool thing we're doing"?


RE: Will need to see.
By euler007 on 6/2/2014 10:10:14 AM , Rating: 4
How many hours have you spent in windows 8? I've been working full time on a windows 8 (8.1 now) workstation since september and when I go back to my windows 7 Aero desktop at home it feels outdated, I actually prefer 8.1 right now.

My next home build will probably be a Haswell-E pc with windows 9 next spring.


RE: Will need to see.
By Nutzo on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: Will need to see.
By Murst on 6/2/2014 2:48:34 PM , Rating: 3
What exactly do you use in Win Server 2012 that uses the metro UI?

The start menu does, but I can't really think of anything else that would use it. Computer management, powershell, etc, do not use the metro UI.

Also, if you do not like any of the UI, you can always install Server 2012 without it.


RE: Will need to see.
By euler007 on 6/2/2014 6:21:02 PM , Rating: 2
Real men do everything in powershell on a server core!

All kidding aside, a big part of me moving to windows 8 WAS to manage a server 2012. I have the hyper-v manager and the other management tools installed and I connect to the server to manage it. I only use RDP when necessary and a physical console when I have to be in the server room for a reason (a few times a year).


RE: Will need to see.
By Newspapercrane on 6/2/2014 10:10:06 AM , Rating: 2
Okay... wait... hold up.

Did you even use Windows ME? Vista comparison aside, Windows ME was a complete piece of garbage. While Windows 8 may have usability issues, please don't confuse those with stability issues of Windows ME. While Windows 8's interface may be flawed, just about everything about Windows ME was flawed.

I get that you don't like change, but that's just ridiculous.


RE: Will need to see.
By FITCamaro on 6/2/2014 10:44:48 AM , Rating: 4
Seriously. I had 512MB of RAM in my Windows ME computer in 2001 and it had to be rebooted once a day due to all the memory leaks in the OS. Windows 8 is a solid OS on the backend, just the front end focused solely on touch without considering traditional users which created usability issues.

Even Vista wasn't that bad. Vista just had initial driver issues (not the fault of Microsoft) and also was a bit of a memory hog. But the core OS was much more solid than even XP.


RE: Will need to see.
By YearOfTheDingo on 6/2/2014 4:30:48 PM , Rating: 2
You're forgetting how busted File Explorer was in Vista. Simple operations like file copying were slooow. Accessing network drives over VPN was flat out unusable.


RE: Will need to see.
By nikon133 on 6/2/2014 5:22:54 PM , Rating: 2
Worked (and still does) very nice for me, but like I said before - I can see people having problem with it's bipolar personality. It is just that, for some reason, I didn't have problem.

As a result, I don't mind it on my desktop and laptop, and I love it on my tablet - which I use, say, 95% in Modern UI, switching to desktop only if I want to do something in Office (rarely on tablet) or copy files from home lan location (3rd party Modern file managers are very picky, and MS, unfortunately, didn't bother releasing Windows Explorer for Modern).

I'd go that far to say that, after using both Android and Apple tablets as well, Lenovo's ThinkPad Tablet 2 with Win 8.1 Pro is my favourite tablet so far.


Not surprising who is actually leading this...
By peterrushkin on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
By Bubbacub on 6/2/2014 4:13:58 PM , Rating: 4
Given your previous form on daily tech demonstrating your racist views on Indians, particularly Indians working as ceos in major it firms I can't say that your viewpoint on Satya is of any interest to the majority of the non racists on this forum.


Windows is getting better and better!
By onerec111 on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: Windows is getting better and better!
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 10:13:43 AM , Rating: 2
It's a bit early for that. It remains to be seen if they can do it and not make a clusterf$%k of it. It could be big... Or irritating as hell to use, depending on how they do it.


RE: Windows is getting better and better!
By Labotomizer on 6/2/2014 10:20:58 AM , Rating: 2
I think the relatively simple changes of adding Metro apps to the start menu along with live tiles and the ability to run those apps as windows will go a long way. Especially if you could tie that to usage profiles. So if I'm using a keyboard and mouse when I hit start or the start button I get a menu. When I'm using it as a touch screen and I hit start then I get the start screen instead and Metro apps are full screen by default.

The industry is moving to an OS that can run across all these different form factors. If Windows 9 refines 8 and gets common code on all the devices then MS will be better positioned than any of its competition. And Windows 8 and the complaints will have been well worth it.


By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 12:33:38 PM , Rating: 2
"I think the relatively simple changes of adding Metro apps to the start menu along with live tiles and the ability to run those apps as windows will go a long way. Especially if you could tie that to usage profiles. So if I'm using a keyboard and mouse when I hit start or the start button I get a menu. When I'm using it as a touch screen and I hit start then I get the start screen instead and Metro apps are full screen by default. "

Absolutely, that sounds awesome. I would even go farther... Make it a setting. Always Start menu, always start screen or automatically detect as you outlined above. That way no-one can complain.


yeah right
By sprockkets on 6/2/14, Rating: -1
RE: yeah right
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 10:12:26 AM , Rating: 2
"I already have a unified platform called Android with my phone and tablet."

Are you saying you dont have a Windows computer at all, at home or at work?


RE: yeah right
By Labotomizer on 6/2/2014 10:23:21 AM , Rating: 2
He's saying the solution to Windows' problems is to ditch legacy and only use Metro. That's a first...


RE: yeah right
By sprockkets on 6/2/2014 10:26:08 AM , Rating: 2
Desktop runs a browser which does all of my Google gmail, Docs or sheets I need to. It is still unified to me. But I don't use a computer at work because I don't have a desk job.

Obviously some apps aren't on my desktop, but I don't care if they are not anyway. I don't use torque, a OBD program for my car on a laptop/desktop because it isn't mobile.

The only reason I keep a desktop running windows around is for Starcraft 2. And Win9 isn't going to unify that ever.

I dual boot on suse linux but that's also hitting a dead end for me as well.


RE: yeah right
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 11:04:50 AM , Rating: 2
"The only reason I keep a desktop running windows around is for Starcraft 2. And Win9 isn't going to unify that ever."

So the answer is yes, you do use a Windows machine.

The point I was getting at is that as much as we would like it, Android, IOS, WP, none of it is ready to replace Windows, not even close. These are all bing used "in addition to" not "instead of" Windows is my point. You have one example of Starcraft, but that is one of thousands. Everyone has their own.


RE: yeah right
By sprockkets on 6/2/14, Rating: 0
RE: yeah right
By retrospooty on 6/2/2014 12:35:37 PM , Rating: 3
No, of course it wont, that would be suicide. It's already going "less Metro-ey" as it is in Win 8.2... The full screen start menu goes away and Metro apps can run in a Window.


RE: yeah right
By Spuke on 6/2/2014 3:59:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The full screen start menu goes away and Metro apps can run in a Window.
Which is the better way to do it IMO.


RE: yeah right
By Labotomizer on 6/2/2014 10:24:22 AM , Rating: 3
I need a laptop. I need a bigger screen than a tablet provides. I need multiple monitors. I need to be able to manage numerous devices all at once. The Surface Pro is the first tablet that's actually usable for everything when I travel. But I wouldn't want to use it full time either.


RE: yeah right
By sprockkets on 6/2/2014 10:35:45 AM , Rating: 2
And here is the kicker of what I will stress again: Are you going to run any metro apps that require a large screen on a laptop or multiple monitors?

If all new apps will be "metro" with their unified apis, great. But that really solves nothing. The interface commonly associated with new "metro" apps is touch friendly for smaller devices. You still have to have two different interfaces constructed for these programs that work well in your scenario. Which makes "unification" not really the solution to the problem MS faces.

For example, the old school MS office has tons of nested options that just aren't touch friendly. The "metro" version is expected to ditch a lot of that because it wouldn't be easy to access anyhow. But that make it just as powerful as any other new touch friendly app.


RE: yeah right
By TheSlamma on 6/5/2014 8:31:09 AM , Rating: 2
I hate that device, that cheap wifi card they stuck in there bombs on me all the time, pull out my 3 year old smart phone, never drops always connects to hotspots. MS should be ashamed they didn't use an intel or broadcom on that overpriced rag.


"A lot of people pay zero for the cellphone ... That's what it's worth." -- Apple Chief Operating Officer Timothy Cook














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