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Microsoft's Peter Moore says the company may be planning to stop releasing backwards compatiblity updates for the XBOX 360

1up.com recently reported that it appears to them Microsoft may be abandoning backward compatibility with the XBOX 360. This would be in stark contrast of what Microsoft has said in the past concerning the 360 and backwards compatibility, although admittedly the company has flip-flopped rather vigorously on the issue since the initial launch of the XBOX 360.

Spurring 1up.com’s allegations are comments made by Microsoft’s vice-president of entertainment business and entertainment and devices division Peter Moore, to gaming magazine Kikizo during E3 this year saying:

Nobody is concerned anymore about backwards compatibility. We under promised and over delivered on that. It's a very complicated thing... very complex work. I'm just stunned that we have hundreds of games that are backwards compatible. More are coming, but at some point, you just go, there's enough, let's move on, or people aren't as worried about a game being backwards compatible - and I like to think we've upheld our end of the bargain in making at least two or maybe three hundred games backwards [compatible].

There is however conflicting information. In a report by the BBC a Microsoft employee  is stated as saying that a backwards compatibility update was coming in the near future and that more releases were planned after the upcoming update. It is worth noting that currently the software responsible for backwards compatibility on the XBOX 360 takes up an impressive 7GB of space on the XBOX 360 hard drive.

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Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By zombiexl on 6/6/2006 1:23:22 PM , Rating: 2
I can see it now. MS did promise EVERY XBOX title would be made compatible, so I'm not sure i'd disagree with someone who did start a class action based on this.




RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By chrisg22 on 6/6/2006 2:25:10 PM , Rating: 2
No they did not. Like the post right above yours, they said select BEST SELLERS. It was said many times that all games would not be made compatible.


RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By TheDoc9 on 6/6/2006 3:04:15 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know what it says on the box, but all over the net it says it's compatable with PART of the xbox library. Of course the general tone with the media up until now, was just backward compatability - obviously to sell systems.

The fact that it's already 7gb of data really is pathetic. Whatever the reason they did this is, when you look at pc emulators they tend to be ony a few Kbs, maybe a few megs at most. It's either terribly bad programing, or a form of controll to limit what can be played on the system.


By zombiexl on 6/6/2006 3:21:31 PM , Rating: 2
7gb? I'm not sure what you are talkling about the compat updates still fit on a single cd. The reason why they can't support all games is because it doesnt emulate the hardware, they make a new specific emulator for each game.

They should have either supported or not supported, this is just another thing thats hurting MS when they could be cashing in on Sony's arrogance. But now it seems to be the battle of who can p|$$ off more people.


By zombiexl on 6/6/2006 3:17:18 PM , Rating: 2
Actually we are both wrong from the Q&A with Todd Holmdahl (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibil...) he said "I can confidently say our goal remains to make as many games backward compatible as possible."

Which no matter how you read it doesnt translate to we'll stop trying after a year.

Also this lends to the general belief that ALL games would eventually work..
"We're not going to forget about the console that got us where we are today. Xbox still has a very bright future with many top-tier titles coming out from the world's best developers. To that end, we are working with developers to certify that their games will run on Xbox 360 down the line."


RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By zombiexl on 6/6/2006 3:35:33 PM , Rating: 2
chrisg - Also note this from the XBOX website (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibil...)

I've marked the specific part with Bold Underline and Italics, just so everyone can see.

Q: Are you intentionally trying to keep a game off the list because you want us to buy the Xbox 360 version?

A: Not at all. Our goal remains to get every game to be backward compatible. The only things influencing what games we're working on are how popular the title is, and how easy it is to make backward compatible. Several original Xbox games on the list already have Xbox 360 counterparts.


RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By GreenEnvt on 6/6/2006 3:56:22 PM , Rating: 2
Stop trying to stir stuff up man.
I'm certainly no MS fan (my last 2 systems were a genisys and a game cube), but before release, at release, and to this day MS has always said they would support as many of the original games as they could, they never once said they would support every game.

Your quote even shows, "Our goal remains to get every game to be backward compatible. The only things influencing what games we're working on are how popular the title is, and how easy it is to make backward compatible", this says to me that they will try to make every game compatible, but there are limits.


RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By zombiexl on 6/6/2006 5:15:29 PM , Rating: 2
Not trying to stir up anything. I'm just stating what I believe will happen and why. I could care less about BW Compat (i still have my xbox along with my 360), but i see a pattern here.
First they announce that they will not cut the price after a year even though last year they said they would have yearly price cuts, now this.. Whats next?


By chrisg22 on 6/6/2006 5:27:39 PM , Rating: 2
I don't care if they drop prices, I"ve already invested my $700


RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By freon on 6/6/2006 4:02:15 PM , Rating: 2
What you highlight is questioning in response to them saying not all games will be backward compatible. Their goal may have been to make them all backward compatible, but that was not the feature they promised at E3 when backward compatibility was announced.
They said XBox 360 will be "backward compatible with top-selling Xbox games." Period, end of story.
He even backs that up in his response you quoted by saying "The only things influencing what games we're working on are how popular the title is...."


RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By zombiexl on 6/6/2006 5:17:59 PM , Rating: 2
But can you find me ONE thing (bofore this news) where MS says they will NOT try to make game compatible?

The only point I'm making is that MS is dropping the ball all over. It's sad becuase I actually prefer the XBOX (and 360) over SOny's offerings, but I see the XBOX management going in the same arrogant direction.


By chrisg22 on 6/6/2006 5:26:58 PM , Rating: 2
I hardly call it dropping the ball when they aren't supporting old games.

With 125 new updates to Xbox live just coming out, and some pretty good games on the way soon, it's only getting better.



RE: Let the race for a class action suit begin..
By chrisg22 on 6/6/2006 4:39:04 PM , Rating: 2
First off, no matter what they said their goals were, goals can change. But just because he says that they would LIKE to make all the games compatible, doesn't mean that he said that all games WILL be compatible with the 360.

But the point still remains that no matter where you look, you will NOT find any MS exec saying that "all xbox games will be made compatible with the 360" in any form in the past/present.

I could care less if SpongeBob SquarePants: Lights, Camera, PANTS! is made compatible with the 360, I've moved on.


By zombiexl on 6/6/2006 5:31:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yes goal can (and usually do) change.

My point was many people believed MS would continute to make more games work, not just stop.

As for the 125 updates, many of them are language support which hardly count as updates. The other ones seem nice though.


Wow
By phaxmohdem on 6/6/2006 6:20:23 AM , Rating: 2
Bit of a stark contrast to Nintendos plans ehh?




RE: Wow
By piroroadkill on 6/6/2006 6:40:20 AM , Rating: 2
Yes indeed.

This is retarded.

They need to focus on backwards compatibility too, in my opinion.

The fact the emulator takes up 7GB is ridiculous though, it's only a 20GB drive in the first place for crying out loud.


RE: Wow
By Shoal07 on 6/6/2006 6:48:43 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, but what else are you going to use that 20GB for? Save games don't use that much room. Now, if you want to stream tons of MP3 files from your 360 to your HT, then you may need a little more room. However, you could do this with the Xbox and nobody I know did (it was a PITA and not that useful).

The Xbox and the 360 are so completely different in the Hardware world I am surprised they have backwards compatability at all (probably some programmer at MS in his spare time made it a pet project because they didn't toute it as a feature until really close to release). 7GB dosen't seem that bad considering you have to emulate a completely different processor design and bus system.

However, both MS and SOE need 1 PR guy like the white house. It seems like all their recent releases to the press are really, really bad PR ("No more backwards compatability, feel lucky you have any!" "PCs suck, PS3s will rule the world!")


RE: Wow
By IsDanReally on 6/6/2006 1:53:03 PM , Rating: 2
The 13 GB or less of remaining space starts to seem small when game demos are sometimes over a gig. Download a few of those, and your space is gone.

Granted with the background downloading now available, it's less of a hassle to re-download demos you may to check out again before possibly purchasing them.


RE: Wow
By psychobriggsy on 6/6/2006 7:51:16 AM , Rating: 2
7GB!

That's not an emulator! Surely that's a collection of recompiled game binaries (or the result of a slow, but effective, in-house translation from x86 to PPC) rather than an x86 + nVidia GPU emulator? The old XBox game discs are probably only used for data and to identify the game to load.

No wonder it takes a long time to get new game compatibility out the door. Indeed as time goes past it really isn't worth increasing the number of games that are compatible, because every game requires the same amount of effort to make it work. A true emulator would improve compatibility for entire bunches of games at a time with each improvement.


RE: Wow
By Trisped on 6/6/2006 3:30:01 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't actually 7GB, do you have any idea how long that would take to download?

Each game requires a download, so what you do is put the game in, start it, 360 checks for updates, downloads the one for your game if it finds one, and starts the game. If you want more games, you have to download more stuff. Not that big of a deal really.


RE: Wow
By tuteja1986 on 6/6/2006 7:52:21 AM , Rating: 2
No they haven't :( more updates coming...

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152207.html

Anandtech slow on news :?


RE: Wow
By bunnyfubbles on 6/6/2006 10:28:55 AM , Rating: 1
Emulating the Xbox is a little different than NES-n64 titles. And as far as we know, the Wii's hardware isn't much different from the GameCube - another ATI GPU and IBM CPU, whereas XBox was Intel CPU and nVidia GPU with nVidia chipsets and the XBox 360 is IBM CPU and ATI GPU...I wouldn't say the hardware would be readily compatible and thus a lot more work would need to be done to play past games.


Funny
By myztikgohan on 6/6/2006 1:06:23 PM , Rating: 2
This is funny. They're quitting their support of backwards compatibility because there aren't enough XBox games to warrant it. Nintendo has its entire library to sort through, and Sony has an ungodly plethora of games.


Backwards compatibility.
By wallijonn on 6/6/2006 11:52:05 AM , Rating: 2
Quote: "We under promised and over delivered on that."

I think it should read, "We over promised and under delivered on that."

If there were no backwards compatibility, then you'd have to buy all new games, mostly over $50 a game, instead of buying the older titles which are going for $20, like Halo I. If a kid buys an XBox for the first time don't you think he'd like to play Halo I and Halo II along with Halo III?




RE: Backwards compatibility.
By tuteja1986 on 6/6/2006 12:39:58 PM , Rating: 2
wallijonn ;( you noob , halo 1 and halo 2 has backward compatibility. They have over 100 Games supported and more coming :( check the list

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibil...

the only reason Sony is able to give full backwards compatibility is by putting in the emotion processor in the ps3.


RE: Backwards compatibility.
By epsilonparadox on 6/6/2006 1:01:02 PM , Rating: 2
Plus Sony owns the technologies behind the PS1 and PS2. I doubt NVidia would be willing to give ATI its chipset and grafx technology to incorporate into the 360.


RE: Backwards compatibility.
By BigLan on 6/6/2006 2:32:26 PM , Rating: 2
I hadn't actually heard confirmation that the PS3 will have full compatibility. Given their changes to the cell I imagine they'll have partial like the xbox.

The only reason the PS2 had it was because they reused the PS1 chip in it as disk controoler. AFAIK there's no plans for them to include the emotion engine + CPU of the PS2 in the PS3


By epsilonparadox on 6/6/2006 3:25:04 PM , Rating: 2
There's an unconfirmed report which says that first gen ps3 will include ps2 chip for backward compatibility while Sony works out the kinks with their software emulation.

http://next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&t...


RE: Backwards compatibility.
By freon on 6/6/2006 2:17:47 PM , Rating: 2
When they announced backward compatibility, they specifically said only a select couple "best seller" games would be supported.. When delivered, they provided compatibility for a lot more than a select few best sellers.
Under promised, over delivered.


By epsilonparadox on 6/6/2006 3:27:43 PM , Rating: 2
When the killer app (Mechassault) for the xbox live launch in 2001 hasn't made the list yet, you've got to re-evaluate what they consider best sellers.


7 gigabytes?
By onemoredude on 6/6/2006 7:26:17 AM , Rating: 2
Where did you get that the BC software was 7 gigabytes? As far as I know, 7 gigabytes of the HD have been reserved for the system and everything MS decides, but it is not all for backwards compatibility. As far as I've read, the BC code for a game is a couple of megabytes, and several games may use essentially the same code. I can't see how it could be 7 gigabytes, especially, when downloading the update for a single game takes (from my experience) very little time.




RE: 7 gigabytes?
By tuteja1986 on 6/6/2006 8:02:45 AM , Rating: 2
Well they have ported alot of games over , Most of my XBOX games work on XBOX 360 but they just need to port over Riddick escape from butcher bay , Panzer Dragoon and Burnout 3 Takedown. Also fix the bug on Ninja Gaiden Black , but Ninja Gaiden works well after the fix.


RE: 7 gigabytes?
By IsDanReally on 6/6/2006 3:26:56 PM , Rating: 2
You have a good point...I believe a large portion of that space is simply reserved for hard drive caching, as required for original Xbox games. Otherwise one could fill the drive completely, and then older games would fail to function.


RE: 7 gigabytes?
By Wolfpup on 6/6/2006 5:18:34 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, the software 360 uses for backward's compatibility is only a few MegaBytes-just check the size of the download you can burn to CD for proof.

That reserved space is used for system stuff-mostly space games use as cache or to basically temporarily "install" to the hard drive, and to store things like dashboard and system updates, as well as the (tiny) emulation program.

And no, Microsoft does NOT include any recompiled binaries-that probably wouldn't even be legal, and certainlly wouldn't be practical. The emulator takes up virtually no space on a 20GB drive. It's about the equivalent of a game save.


RE: 7 gigabytes?
By Wolfpup on 6/6/2006 5:19:50 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and just to clarify the hard drive cache is used for X-Box 1 AND 360 games. You wouldn't be saving any space by getting rid of the emulator.


Spoiled is right
By littlebitstrouds on 6/6/2006 9:37:47 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know, I remember when every system had a new layout and there were no backwards anything. While it's nice, people do you really wanna be playing an xbox game on xbox 360 in two years? No. And if you do, save yourself the time and hastle... go buy a used xbox for the $50 it will be then.

What he's saying is... we're giving you something really sweet please don't request something that will drag it down because you're stubbourn. I bet if they said your graphics won't be as good if we do this people will stop asking for it. And I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice... But if it's dragging down the rest I'd rather ditch it.

Anyone else feel like no one actually likes the 360 or PS3 when we talk about it on here... but yet we're still buyin and playing.




RE: Spoiled is right
By killerroach on 6/6/2006 10:40:41 AM , Rating: 2
Keep in mind, the original Xbox is the size of a small PC... and having a second console of similar size may be more than some people's entertainment systems can handle. Not to mention keep in mind all the people who sold their Xboxes upon hearing the talk of backwards compatibility to buy an X360, only to be saddled with a bunch of games that no longer work.


RE: Spoiled is right
By lemonadesoda on 6/6/2006 11:32:53 AM , Rating: 2
...that reminds me of my CD's I'm not allowed to RIP to my MP3 player, and my iTunes that I can't play on my PC.

...make 'em buy twice. Thats the industry motto to growing sales... :-(


By Wolfpup on 6/6/2006 5:23:22 PM , Rating: 2
agreed. Many hardcore gamers are going to have all three current systems hooked up to a TV. Double that to six or nine, or... without backwards compatibility.

And more to the point, many people don't own an X-Box, but gaining access to it's library is a selling point of the 360-or would be rather.
And it's not realistic to think you're always going to be able to get an original X-Box. It has a lot of moving parts and won't last forever. Heck, I'm worried about my NES and SNES, and they're orders of magnitude more reliable than the X-Box or 360.


No More BC? Bif F***ing deal!
By vanka on 6/6/2006 4:23:04 PM , Rating: 2
I am getting sick of people whinning about the lack of backwards compatability in the 360. As someone who started gaming on the NES, any BC is plus. I don't remember people bitching about BC when the SNES, N64, or GameCube came out; it seems that viewing BC as a right is a recent phenomonen. Yes the Gameboy Color and the GBA were backwards compatible, but the GBC was a very minor update to the GB (GBC games are playable on the original GB) while the GBA came at a time when gamers became spoiled and expected BC.

For those of you bitching about having to hold on to the antique Xbox for that one gotta-have-it game but don't want it taking up space in your entertainment center, the solution is simple; stick the Xbox in the closet. Don't have room in the closet, stick it under your bed; take it out when you need it. Most TVs have front composite inputs so no fiddling with the back inputs; or leave the componets plugged in to the TV and unplug the Xbox when you're done. If you've already sold your Xbox thinking your games would be compatable, buy a used one on eBay for $50; that probably what you got for your's.

Remember these are consoles we're talking about, when generations change campatabily is not to be expected. Don't like it, get a PC.




RE: No More BC? Bif F***ing deal!
By chrisg22 on 6/6/2006 4:41:23 PM , Rating: 2
Amen man, I hear you loud and clear. I agree 100%, all these babies crying about backward compatibility should be HAPPY that any of their games were made compatible. If I were MS, with the huge change in hardware I would not have wasted the manpower and made ANY games compatible.


By epsilonparadox on 6/6/2006 5:07:15 PM , Rating: 2
MS followed your advice the first couple of yrs of development of the 360, but then Sony stirred the pot with M$ not having BC. Now its too late. Even Nintendo is following suit with the Wii. BC wouldn't have been a big issue if M$ owned the tech behind the xbox. They could've easily put the logic on to a chip and been done.


"But at some point"
By MrSmurf on 6/6/2006 6:43:29 AM , Rating: 2
I think everyone is overracting to this guy's comments. Sure at some point it will end... everything has to come to an end but the bigger question is, when is that "some point" going to be? I don't think it's anytime soon.

With that said, MS's backward compatibility plan for the 360 sucked from the get-go. The get-go being when they designed the original Xbox. I also think they are trying to downplay it by saying not many people care... well... I do. I was happy to get rid of the console itself. It was huge. It was ugly. Now my Xbox collection is put away with the exception of the backward compat. games which I still play.




I think this may be 'old' news
By Merry on 6/6/2006 7:19:25 AM , Rating: 2
"We are going to continue to work with them to make sure they understand the reality of the Internet.  A lot of these people don't have Ph.Ds, and they don't have a degree in computer science." -- RIM co-CEO Michael Lazaridis









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