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Microsoft has lost its appeal in a long-standing case in European courts against the software giant.

Today Microsoft lost its antitrust appeal when the European Court of First Instance ruled to uphold European Commission's ruling against Microsoft.  Microsoft is now expected to have to pay a massive $690 million (€497 million) in fines.

The European Commission accused Microsoft of using underhanded tactics to freeze out its competitors in the media player and server software markets.  In 2004, Microsoft was ordered by EU antitrust commissions to make its media player software compatible with other company's products and to desist in its practice of locking other companies out of its software.

In July DailyTech reported that the EU did not feel Microsoft had complied with the 2004 ruling.  Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes went on the record to state,
"Microsoft has still not put an end to its illegal conduct. I have no alternative but to levy penalty payments for this continued noncompliance."

The fine was initially $375.4 million, but Microsoft refused to comply and instead took the case to court.  Because of this the fine was nearly doubled to $690 million.

Microsoft was also ordered to pay 80% of the Commission's legal expenses.  The Commission has to pay a smaller undisclosed amount of Microsoft's legal expenses.

However, the court criticized the Commission's recommendation of employing a full-time, all-access independent monitoring trustee.  The trustee would be able to visit Microsoft premise, have full access to source code and be able to interview Microsoft employees.  The court felt that this provision was not reasonable, but it only went as far as to criticize it on the record.

Microsoft politely stated in a press release today that it appreciated the court's decision and the work the court put into it. With regard to the monitoring trustee issue
Brad Smith, Microsoft senior vice president and general counsel said, "We appreciate the court’s judgment on the trustee issue and the monitoring mechanism, an issue where the court agreed with us, and yet I would be the first to acknowledge that I don’t think anyone would say that is the most important part of this case or this decision."

Smith seemed somewhat reserved in the press release; which concluded as, "So, we look forward to continued efforts to implement and comply with today’s decision, we welcome the opportunity for continued discussion to adhere to our duties with the European Commission, and we look forward to hopefully continuing to move technology forward to create more jobs on this continent."

Microsoft said it is not currently sure what its next legal steps will be in trying to comply with EU competition law.  This ruling marks one of the largest against Microsoft and is a major victory for the EU's Competition Commission.


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Is Apple being sued as well?
By phatboye on 9/17/2007 10:35:23 AM , Rating: 5
Does the EU commission have a similar case against Apple?? Their software locks out competitors products as well.




RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/17/2007 10:42:50 AM , Rating: 2
No, because Apple isn't worth much and isn't seen as "A Big Scary Monopoly" oh noes!?!!?

Apple builds a closed system that locks its OS to their hardware and can get away with it. Microsoft builds in extra features to an OS you can load on almost any hardware and is slapped with lawsuits for "competing against other companies".

Just because the EU considers Microsoft a monopoly they apply "special rules" that have no other purpose than to attempt to destroy a business for being "too successful". The EU is socialism at its finest, thats why the most successful corporations on earth don't thrive in socialism environments, they prefer Capitalism or Free Market systems (They are damn near the same thing but the Economics guys would shoot me for the minor differences ;) )


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Maskarat on 9/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Maskarat on 9/17/2007 11:06:36 AM , Rating: 5
So we agree, Socialism is not neccessarily a bad thing. :)

Sure .. in the current scenario .. have 10 different OS's .. not cooperating with each other .. that would be HELL!! But ever notice how openess between the open source OS's helps them to comunicate between each other? Ever notice how for example gcc runs on all different *NIX flavours? Or ever notice how NFS is supported on all *NIX platforms?

Also the EU did not ask Microsoft to not to ask for royalties!! It asked them to open up their protocols. IBM, Sun, Redhat .. these are companies that to some extent invest and reap back from the open source pool. Are they too stifling innovation?


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By thebrown13 on 9/17/2007 12:29:48 PM , Rating: 1
Only 5 years back? I think that's understating it.

Microsoft has helped all of us a great deal, and this is how we repay them. And the world wonders why there are no true heroes.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By cochy on 9/17/2007 2:05:50 PM , Rating: 3
lol there are no true heroes because we live in a capitalist society. By it's very nature you must be selfish as an entity to excel in this environment. Heroes would be by definition selfless. As you can see they are more or less incompatible with each other. That being said, no system is perfect.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/2007 9:50:56 PM , Rating: 1
At least under capitalism, someone taking a huge risk with minimal chance of government intervention should it pay off huge you have a chance of someone rolling the dice in a way that also happens to be hugely socially beneficial. In fact, capitalism by extension is the belief that the common good is best advanced when all members maximize their personal utility.

Socialism, on the other hand, produces no extra heroes either; zero incentive. Why bother when government can take care of everything?


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By NT78stonewobble on 9/18/2007 3:05:52 AM , Rating: 1
I don't get this one.

So nobodys earning any money in socialist europe?

And did you just magically read the mind of all 6 billion people in the world and found that motivation = $$$.

Becaus that is a sad outlook for humanity.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/18/2007 7:12:43 AM , Rating: 1
Several countries in europe, people are dieing with less money than they were born with, so yes they are losing money. In europe there is no real motivation to work because the government will take care of you with the social programs. In the U.S. social programs will only get you so far but you will still end up on the street if you don't maintain a steady job.

quote:
And did you just magically read the mind of all 6 billion people in the world and found that motivation = $$$.

You bet, money makes the world go 'round and if you think it doesn't your kidding yourself.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/18/2007 12:46:06 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Becaus that is a sad outlook for humanity.


Sorry the world isn't Disney Land :P


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By dever on 9/18/2007 6:49:12 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
found that motivation = $$$. Becaus that is a sad outlook for humanity.
Money is not evil... it can't be, it's not even an entity. It is simply a metric. Money is only a tool that allows us to quantify.

You can be motivated to do good for other people, but the only universally useful metric we currently have to measure that good is money. The amount of money people freely pay you for your service or product is a good indication of the amount of "good" your product or service does for those people -- it's value to them.

If that metric is artificially manipulated, it becomes less valuable, and less good is done.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/17/2007 2:41:24 PM , Rating: 1
Yes it was more than 5 years, I believe it has been since the dawn of mainframe's that this has been an issue but that was before even my time in this field. Still, case in point, these guys have no idea how easy and structured computing has become under Microsoft.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By phusg on 9/17/2007 3:23:53 PM , Rating: 2
I don't buy in to this whole 5 years back argument. I think you're attributing too much of the natural progress in computing to Microsoft being the dominant software company. At the time Microsoft became popular with Windows, I believe IBM had a competing O/S 2 Warp or some such. And if it hadn't of been that, it would have been something else. Humanity and technology were ready for a revolution in computing and the accompanying software.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/18/2007 7:15:17 AM , Rating: 3
Microsoft was one of the leading development houses behind OS/2, when Microsoft decided to roll with Windows it stopped work on OS/2 and that pretty much killed it. You forget that IBM had contracted Microsoft to build its operating systems.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By tuteja1986 on 9/19/2007 12:34:14 AM , Rating: 2
I have been following this case for a long time. All i can say is that 1st EU court were right then later on in the case went totally crazy where EU court just wanted Microsoft to suffer even after all the changes and stuff were done. Microsoft has done alot but EU now look like they are in it for the money instead of actually trying to slove the problem.

I really don't see Microsoft can make the EU court happy.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By cochy on 9/17/2007 1:55:25 PM , Rating: 1
Your are assuming a great deal in basically everything you've said. Open Source community moving slower than Microsoft is debatable at best, entirely wrong at worse. How much has Windows and Office "moved" along from the first days of XP to Vista? Not a heck of a lot. Look how far Open Source software has come in that same time period and you can quick invalidate your statement.

As for 50 different flavors of *NIX not being able to communicate with each other, well thats completely wrong unless by communicating you mean something entirely different from "talking with each other". They all speak the same language. As an IT professional, I can say administering Linux or BSD based servers is a whole heck of a lot simpler and cheaper than Windows based servers. Once you know Suse Linux you can administer Red Hate Linux or BSD systems with minimal learning curve.

quote:
Computers wouldn't be the mainsteam commodity we have today, and we would be 5 years back.


Right cause you built a machine that was able to transport you to an alternate Universe where this was the reality? Otherwise you're just assuming once more, and remember what happens when you ASSume?


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/17/2007 2:45:40 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
How much has Windows and Office "moved" along from the first days of XP to Vista? Not a heck of a lot.

Ah you need to re-check yourself there.

Let's compare Vista to Windows for workgroups.
Let's compare Office 97 to Office 2007.

Case in point, Microsoft (and other private companies) invest lots of money into moving products forward and ensuring compatability with existing software.

Open Source guys can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and that is a problem. I also have to disagree that BSD and Linux servers are easier to administer, I frankly find Windows servers easier and that is why there is a larger supply of Windows admins than BSD or *NIX.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By cochy on 9/17/2007 3:33:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
and that is why there is a larger supply of Windows admins than BSD or *NIX.


No it's not. The reason there is a larger supply is not because it's easier it's because there's more demand, I won't argue that there are more Windows servers than Linux server at the moment. Supply demand holds true for the job market as well.

I said to compare XP to Vista which is a 7 year period. Pretty long time if you ask me, and I don't see too much innovation in that time. I see newer versions of IE and Media Player. Plus IE was playing catch up game for most of that time.

If you want to compare Vista to workgroups then go ahead but I still maintain that your argument is debatable and certainly not case in point. It would be interesting to actually do a real comparison or point to an existing one than to jump to conclusions.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By FNG on 9/17/2007 10:49:13 PM , Rating: 2
Additionally, it takes almost 3 times the number of admins for our MS server farm as our similarly sized UNIX farm. While Microsoft has made great strides towards administration of Windows both remotely and programatically, it still has a long way to go. It seems that for every upgrade in server version we have to grab another admin or two.

Now, some of this can be attributed to poor initial setup and other factors that did not affect the UNIX boxes. However, we are not looking to cut 66% of the staff, just divert them to other Windows Server duties.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By erikejw on 9/17/2007 7:41:34 PM , Rating: 2
It is a fact that Microsoft and other companies has to obey local laws. If they don't they will get punished. It is as easy as yet.

US laws is not world laws but I know that most of you guys out there don't understand that.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By phusg on 9/17/2007 12:00:45 PM , Rating: 4
And why isn't Apple seen as a big scary monopoly? Because it has about 10% of the PC market share and therefore isn't a monopoly. Microsoft essentially has the other 90%.

Microsoft has not been slapped with lawsuits for "competing against other companies", as you simplistically put it. They have been found to be repeatedly and illegally engaging in anti-competitive behavior.

I don't know what planet you live on but do you really think the EU/EC is trying to "destroy a business" with this decision?!?


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By crystal clear on 9/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By phusg on 9/17/2007 12:36:42 PM , Rating: 2
I read it and it didn't answer my question. I hope they do go after Intel, I've no doubt that Intel has been abusing it's monopoly position too.

I'll ask it another way: what does the EU/EC stand to gain from destroying a business? (to clarify I'm assuming destroying means that the company goes bankrupt)


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Parhel on 9/17/2007 1:14:00 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I'll ask it another way: what does the EU/EC stand to gain from destroying a business? (to clarify I'm assuming destroying means that the company goes bankrupt)


Uh . . . $690 million to start with.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By phusg on 9/17/2007 1:19:56 PM , Rating: 1
Do you really think $690 million will put Micro$oft out of business?!?


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By FITCamaro on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By rdeegvainl on 9/17/2007 3:52:09 PM , Rating: 2
Actually that is exactly what they can do, they can not import an microsoft product. That would certainly put a damper on things now wouldn't it?
That kind of attitude that says they can't exist without microsoft is a problem. if the EU turns completely away from microsoft, they lose a huge chunk of the global economy.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By FITCamaro on 9/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/2007 9:57:58 PM , Rating: 2
If Microsoft cut off all support to Europe there'd be utter chaos. More economic harm would be done to Europe as a whole than what would ever be reflected in MSFT quarterly reports. Don't delude yourself with some fantasy that Ubuntu would ride in and save the continent from the evil capitalist maniacs.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By The Sword 88 on 9/18/2007 12:15:33 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly, without Microsoft support so many business and home users would be screwed in the EU. The EU needs to start try to cooperate with big companies rather than sueing all of them. Microsoft, Intel, who's next on the EU's list?


By NT78stonewobble on 9/18/2007 3:10:26 AM , Rating: 2
A lot easier. And since... You know microsoft didn't have to abide by the law neither did we:)


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By wordsworm on 9/17/2007 8:47:45 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Tell Microsoft that Windows is now illegal in the EU?
I don't think anyone should take your comment seriously. The EU is bigger than the US. The EU is basically a European united states. Their GDP is #1. There's no way in heck that Microsoft is going to risk losing access to that market. It would be suicide. Someone, some company would move in to fill the void, and chances are pretty good it would be competitive with Windows to the point that it could compete in the USA. Microsoft will pay. Look at how polite MS is being. They're not going to pull the same with the EU like they have mentioned in S. Korea.
The EU is growing in power, and it's only a matter of time before they overtake the US in military superiority as they have recently done with their GDP. The only reason the US succeeded so well was because of the import of 1/2 of Germany's greatest minds in WWII (roughly the other half going to the Soviets), not to mention constantly luring the greatest minds in the world with its Hollywood dreams. Your current president is squandering all the advantages the US has had in the last century over these 2 futile wars and the cap put on importing highly skilled workers. I don't think the US is anywhere near out of the picture, but it's clear that they've lost a heck of a lot of ground in the last 8 years.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By TomZ on 9/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/07, Rating: -1
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By The Sword 88 on 9/18/2007 12:18:15 AM , Rating: 2
You do realize that the EU still doesnt get along with each other and is far from the dominate cohesive unit you see it as, right?

Or are you really that misinformed about politics and economics?


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/18/2007 12:49:19 PM , Rating: 2
What does that have to do with my finding the assertion that the EU will ever rival US military power hilarious?

To respond to your non-response, I agree in principle but the trend says your wrong. Sovereign EU nations yield more power to Brussels year by year -- and to their own disgrace, they're doing it now without a popular referendum.


By The Sword 88 on 9/18/2007 2:00:01 PM , Rating: 2
I meant to respond to the guy who was raving about the glory of the EU not you


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Parhel on 9/17/2007 3:31:49 PM , Rating: 2
No, but it's a good start. $690 million here, $690 million there, pretty soon it adds up to real money.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By ghost101 on 9/17/2007 1:21:06 PM , Rating: 2
Billions in savings for consumers over the years would be the first target actually.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By crystal clear on 9/17/2007 1:40:05 PM , Rating: 2
Fines are a reliable source for financing your overspending.

You destroy their markets/revenues/incomes/profits etc.

You exploit them as you like.

You cannot drive them to bankcrupsy-you make life Hell for them.

E.U. GAINS a lot of money from these fines & use these fines to finance your bloated goverments/commissions.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By y7bb6 on 9/17/2007 3:45:40 PM , Rating: 2
It would be funny if Microsoft took operations out of europe and didn't pay the fine. Then Europeans would have to get their copies overseas.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By blackbrrd on 9/17/2007 5:26:13 PM , Rating: 1
They should be able to get a copy of a competing companies program.. But it might be a bit hard because Microsoft is running something close to a monopoly?

Why can't I buy just Windows, why you have to buy the whole bundle. It isn't like you can't create an OS without a web browser, media player, etc, etc.

Personally I like Microsoft Windows - I don't like the media player, the browser etc, etc. So why should I have to pay for them. It isn't like Microsoft developed them for free. So, when I buy MS Windows to get an OS I am subsidizing their development of software I don't want.

It would be fine if you could just get the Windows basic, where they left out all the bits that aren't necessary for the OS to work. Should be a lot cheaper ;) Then they could sell the rest of the applications as just that. Applications. But nooooo, MS has to sell it as a part of the OS.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By TomZ on 9/17/2007 6:08:00 PM , Rating: 1
Your argument makes no sense logically, since the price of Windows is not based on the cost of development. It is priced on the perceived total value of the "bundle" to the average customer. Therefore, this price would already factor out the value IE, WMP, etc. for some percentage of customers that don't want to use those programs.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By 16nm on 9/17/2007 7:59:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Personally I like Microsoft Windows - I don't like the media player, the browser etc, etc. So why should I have to pay for them. It isn't like Microsoft developed them for free. So, when I buy MS Windows to get an OS I am subsidizing their development of software I don't want.
A software company like Microsoft cannot develop a software package just for one person. It would be like you saying you only like MS Word because you can type in it and use the spell checker and you are not interested in all the other tools that come with it because you do not use them. Well, maybe you don't use them, but many others do. It is the same for Windows. You may not use ALL the functions available, but others do. MS can not design Windows around just your needs. Personally, I like several of its added functions. I like Paint, Notepad and IE. I don't care for media player either, but I bet others use it.


By crystal clear on 9/17/2007 8:53:56 PM , Rating: 2
YES FROM CHINA- DAMN CHEAP !


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By crystal clear on 9/17/2007 9:11:38 PM , Rating: 2
The E.U. is flooded with Chinese goods/products from textiles to electronics to name what you like.

The Chinese have a monopoly on cheap products-just nobody can compete with them,when it comes to prices.

As per your thinking-its unfair competition for other manufacturers (non-Chinese).

So what do you do ?

Impose FINES on CHINA !


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/2007 10:11:22 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Impose FINES on CHINA !


I know you're sort of kidding, but, seriously, don't know what the Euros are up to, but the Democrats are working on it.


By The Sword 88 on 9/18/2007 12:19:34 AM , Rating: 1
They Dems want to tax everything


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By crystal clear on 9/18/2007 8:28:02 AM , Rating: 2
Hi there,

Always a pleasure discussing with you-this topic M.S/E.U is as always heated/tense/heavy traffic oriented.

Just see the total comments posted & it still goes on.

As for your comment-

I travel a lot in the region & know one thing for sure-

All is not OK there-however much they make it appear to be.

They are sitting on a heap of explosives issues that makes anybody shiver.
The long term effect will be disasterous-well thats the only way Europe learns-THE HARDWAY & PAYS A HEAVY PRICE...

History reapeats itself.
Ok do not wish to talk politics-not my expertize.


By crystal clear on 9/18/2007 8:31:43 AM , Rating: 2
Should read-sorry typing error.

History repeats itself.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By soydios on 9/17/2007 12:32:23 PM , Rating: 2
Give me sources saying Microsoft has done anything anticompetitive (other than purely existing as a corporation) at any time since the release of Windows XP. Particularly, ask yourself whether Apple hasn't done the same thing.

The EU is trying to reign in Microsoft with this decision. Apple is allowed to bundle all kinds of media software (iTunes, Quicktime, iMovie, iDVD, etc.), and Safari in their operating system. Furthermore, they are allowed to lock it to their hardware only. Why? Because it's a good product, and that's what customers want (though I sure wouldn't mind if I could run it on non-fashion-statement hardware).

So, what happens when Microsoft does exactly the same thing? They get sued six ways to Sunday. Microsoft has been forced to open markets for its competitors, at the cost of its own business and more importantly, to the detriment of consumers. Why do most people say to use OSX over Windows? Because OSX just works, and you don't need to install all those third-party things to get things done. Thank the courts for the hassle of third-part software in Windows.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By danrien on 9/17/2007 1:52:40 PM , Rating: 2
its different because microsoft has a monopoly on the market. once you are considered a monopoly, the rules of the game change.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By FITCamaro on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By phusg on 9/17/2007 2:58:07 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Especially considering they lock you into their system a hell of a lot more than Microsoft does.

You admit Microsoft locks customers into their product yet you don't understand why the European Commission takes them to court and wins the case?
quote:
Merely having a majority market share does not make a company a monopoly.

It does to most people, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly, but merely having a monopoly will not get you taken to court. The reason Microsoft did was because they misused their monopoly to lock customers into their products and shut out the competition.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By FITCamaro on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By phusg on 9/18/2007 5:37:49 AM , Rating: 2
LOL.

quote:
Especially considering they lock you into their system a hell of a lot more than Microsoft does.

Do you really not see that by saying that Apple does x more than Microsoft, Microsoft also does x?


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/2007 10:29:30 PM , Rating: 1
This is why we don't use wikipedia to base our knowledge on.

First of all, while Microsoft is not a price maker for the market as a whole; some alternatives are much less, others are free, and all reflect the resources taken to produce them more then anything. Prices for software are also inherently much more flexible than those for, say, a car, with massive fixed costs.

Second, what barriers to entry exist in the OS market? None. Any fool with a 386, monitor and keyboard can try to code one. Any individual with access to, say, eBay and attempt to sell one.

Third. MS has many substitutes. Whether or not they are "close" can be debated; market participants suggest by the market share allocated to the others that they are inferior. This is not the fault of Microsoft that its 'ecosystem' as I've heard it called is more developed and easier to operate it.

Fourth. Single seller. Clearly not.

Could a case for MS being a natural monopoly be made? I would say that it could; billions in R&D went in to Vista, billions more will go in to future releases. Only a firm with large market share can afford such expenditures, and firms that can't afford such expenditures end up being nice weekend hobby OS's, like Ubuntu.

What standard definition of monopoly is left to define Microsoft by? Woops. That's right. There isn't one. They're no more a monopoly than Toyota would be if they came out with a car so much more advanced, reliable and low cost that sales of all other vehicle makers dropped to a share comparable to that of OSX. Hmm, or otherwise made a car that was simply greatly preferred for whatever reason.

Another reason to not use Wikipedia as anything to base opinion on is its acute myopia. It didn't at all mention the long history of dealing with monopolies; namely that the earlier presidents that were the first to really deal with them had a philosophical flexibility not found in some modern trolls in that they understood that not all monopolies were against the public good.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By TomZ on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By BitJunkie on 9/18/2007 12:37:34 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed a very well written post. The first coherent and well constructed arguement I've read in this forum in the Pro-Microsoft camp.

Proof (if it was needed) that you don't need to revert to racial sterotyping and jingoistic rhetoric to prove your case.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By phusg on 9/18/2007 5:57:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is why we don't use wikipedia to base our knowledge on.

That's an extremely cheap-shot considering I could have just as well have used any definition available, including Microsoft's 'own' definition from http://ca.encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictiona... to illustrate my point.
quote:
What standard definition of monopoly is left to define Microsoft by? Woops. That's right. There isn't one.

Of course there isn't. Every monopoly is unique as every industry is unique, computer software even more so you could say. I'll repeat it once more in the vain hope that someone will actually understand this: Microsoft was not taken to court because they became a monopoly, natural or not. They were taken to court because they misused their monopoly position to lock customers into their products and lock competition out.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By theapparition on 9/18/2007 11:07:17 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Microsoft was not taken to court because they became a monopoly, natural or not. They were taken to court because they misused their monopoly position to lock customers into their products and lock competition out.

Your right, they have completely locked out the competition. They don't let you install any web browser, don't let you install any media application, and don't provide programming tools to the public to create code to work on their syst........err, wait a minute.

How do they "lock" competition out, again? How do they lock customers into thier products? If you mean by giving them to you free, whereas your also free to use any other application that suits your fancy. Answer: They Don't.

That's as dumb as me wanting to sue Toyota becasue they don't offer Alpine stereo's as an option....wait, someone get me a lawyer.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By JoeBanana on 9/18/2007 11:34:50 AM , Rating: 2
Obviously you haven't tried to reverse engineer a program.
Just think of how many hours(years) went into stable decryption of NTFS protocol, that could be used elsewhere for product development and all for the sake of limiting competition.
Or have you ever try to code for IE. But the funny thing is, now that firefox is gaining share IE is becoming more standard oriented.

Of course you can install your own apps, but that's not the case. Try to code one that uses some MS indoor protocols.(because of monopoly nothing else exists)

Let them keep the sources just provide handshake info.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By wordsworm on 9/17/2007 12:31:39 PM , Rating: 5
Didn't Apple just announce that they'd start locking out non-iTunes tunes on their iPods? If that's the case, I'd say you can count on the EU stepping in.

quote:
Just because the EU considers Microsoft a monopoly they apply "special rules" that have no other purpose than to attempt to destroy a business for being "too successful".


Are you completely out of it? The US itself, preBush II, was in talks to break up Microsoft because of its practices.

quote:
socialism at its finest

So... you don't like socialism? You don't like public schools, police, welfare, to name but a few facets of socialism.

Apple has been under scrutiny over its iTunes. In relation to its practices with computers, if the shoe was on the other foot, then there can be no question but that it would be Steve Jobs' Adam's Apple on the block rather than Gates'.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By zombiexl on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/17/2007 2:56:49 PM , Rating: 1
I concur, welfare needs to be abolished. I am fine paying taxes for Schools, Law Enforcement, Military, and Fire&Rescue stuff, but welfare? Nope. Forget it.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By arazok on 9/17/2007 4:50:32 PM , Rating: 2
Schools would be better served privatley with government oversight on ciricculum. The voucher system used in some US disctricts is a good start. Keep it free, but let parents decide the school. Privately run schools would keep the unions out, and competition for students would make schools more competitive.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By darkpaw on 9/17/2007 5:20:37 PM , Rating: 2
While I agree in general, privately run schools would never work well in rural areas like where I grew up. My school had the second largest district in NY by area, but only 800 total students pre-k through 12. That definatley wouldn't be anything a private company would be interested in dealing with.

There are too many factors to take into consideration to just say privitize everything. I do support the public/private concepts like charter schools though. When you look at the sorry shape of school distrcits like DC, its obvious that competition is needed in many areas.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By TomZ on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By arazok on 9/17/2007 7:43:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Corporate management of a school will naturally focus on what corporations do best - optimize profit.


Agreed. I believe this is a necessary evil, and easily kept in check. The consumers will ensure quality service by sending their students to the best school in their area. The school owners will be forced to compete.

quote:
School vouchers are also a means to fund churches with taxpayer dollars


Although I don't think school and religion belong together, I don't see a problem with religious schools so long as the curriculum is mandated by the government to ensure they don't become focused on religion at the expense of education.

We fully fund Catholic schools here in Ontario, and with the exception of one religion class per semester, they are identical to regular schools.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By TomZ on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By arazok on 9/17/2007 10:10:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm sure the non-Catholics in Ontario really appreciate that policy


It's a non-issue here (for the most part). The Catholic school board runs about a quarter of all the schools in the province. In some neighborhoods, you send you child to the Catholic school only because it's the closest.

The Catholic schools are generally considered better run then the public schools, but are not much different apart from the requirement of uniforms.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/2007 10:37:55 PM , Rating: 2
You make solid points Tom, but the weight of evidence is that when it's implemented as a competitive compliment to a public school system that before long students in both private and public schools perform better. When parents are given a voucher they still care little about the cost, but they do care about the quality of education that their children receive. That creates competition for the students. Of course, once they have students, private schools then optimize their spending to maximize profit but doing so at the expense of a quality education would destroy their own business.

Unfortunately as long as there is a teachers union there can be no such corporate efficiency in the United States public school systems in general. Break the union, and then hire people to try to fix the system, and just enough people might be motivated by being true public servants to do some good. The huge reforms needed would never be tolerated by the union though.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By TomZ on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/2007 11:16:38 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, I didn't understand you meant out-sourcing the whole thing. Sorry. Yeah.. I see what you're saying then. Also, at least in that situation government schools would be the devil we know and can deal with as voters rather than the devil we don't know and can't change with a cost-plus contractor.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By rcc on 9/18/2007 2:28:03 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I worry a bit that the profit motive might come at the expense of education quality if other alternatives don't exist.


Corporations understand profits. Tie their payments to grades on those exit tests everyone keeps bitching about. : ) Just make sure the tests are comprehensive.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By nofranchise on 9/17/2007 6:30:11 PM , Rating: 4
Jesus. Thank whatever entity may be out there that I don't live in the US with you guys. You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about considering welfare and the social democratic society. The reason probably being such a system, which has worked incredibly well in Europe - especially in Scandinavia - has never even been tried in the US.

You really SERIOUSLY believe people on welfare are just "lazy"? You believe people CHOOSE and like to be poor and on welfare? If so you seriously need to get out more. I would have thought that as a writer here, Master Kenobi should at least TRY to be a bit objective, but I guess being objective ,informed and tolerant is other woes of ..... *scary noises* SOCIALISM...

Grow up, smell the coffee - do something. Just don't unload this juvenile garbage about how much the world would benefit if we just let Microsoft and the other Fortune 500's run the place.


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By The Sword 88 on 9/18/2007 12:25:21 AM , Rating: 2
I went to Stanton in jacksonville Florida for those same reasons, they promise good academics to get white kids to go to the black school, yay busing!

I got the same education as the other kids but most of the local kids ended up selling drugs while I am going to a private college for free, why? Because I tried in school, not becaus eI went to a better school.

People need to stop blaming the system and take responsibility for their actions


RE: Is Apple being sued as well?
By Ringold on 9/18/2007 1:01:24 PM , Rating: 1
Yep. Our AP classes and whatnot were open to other people and asides from perhaps 5 girls from the local area that didn't want to drop babies by the age of 16 we typically had them all to ourselves.

America's a land of plenty, the government blows taxpayer money to lay it all out on the table. If people aren't willing to lean forward, reach out with their hands and grab at it why must we feel bad?

I like how I got rated down to 0 for pointing out the obvious truth of the vast majority of inner city problems; not economic, not government, but cultural and individual weakness.


By The Sword 88 on 9/18/2007 2:03:40 PM , Rating: 1
I agree with you, we should not feel bad for these people, if a teenage girl gwts pregant and drops, isnt that her fault? If students ar ecutting class to smoke pot, arent they to blame? I think that allowing those students to be in our AP classes is our responisbility but it is their responibility to sign up for them and to try and suceed in them <