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  (Source: wpcentral.com)
Google recently blocked Microsoft's YouTube app for Windows Phone

Microsoft has been warring with Google over a full YouTube app for Windows Phone, but it looks like the two just can't come to an agreement. 

Microsoft's David Howard, corporate vice president and deputy general counsel for Litigation & Antitrust, wrote a blog post with a simple message to Google: stop blocking Windows Phone's new YouTube app. 

The blog post claims that Microsoft had been running a YouTube app that doesn't provide as full of an experience as the version for Android and iOS since 2010. It recently changed this by creating a more full-powered YouTube app, but Google has blocked it because the app doesn't meet its requirements. 

This is what Microsoft is upset about. Howard claims that Microsoft is happy to work with Google on ways to make the app meet the Android maker's standards, but nothing seems to be working, and Microsoft believes Google is just making up excuses in order to keep Windows Phone from providing a full YouTube experience.

So what is it about Windows Phone's YouTube app that Google doesn't like? According to Howard, Google said the new app doesn't always serve advertisements correctly based on conditions by content creators. Microsoft asked Google to supply it with the information used by Android and iOS to ensure that advertisements are served correctly, and Google refused to do so.

Also, Google isn't happy with the branding of the product. Howard argued that Microsoft has been using the same branding since 2010 (the same branding it used for the inferior app) and Google never said anything before. Microsoft has apparently even made an effort to let users know that it is the author of the app, not Google. 

Furthermore, Google said the app is a "degraded" experience. This doesn't make much sense to Howard either, considering the fact that Google allowed Windows Phone to feature a YouTube app that was far below the quality of Android's and iOS' for years. 

But perhaps the largest issue is a request from Google that Microsoft transition the app to HTML5. Microsoft looked into doing so, but decided that it would take too much time and be too costly. 

The bigger problem with launching an HTML5-based version is that this isn't required of either Android or iOS. Neither of the apps on those platforms are written in HTML5 language, so Howard believes Microsoft shouldn't have to pull its current app down just because HTML5 isn't doable right now.

However, Microsoft did agree to work on an HTML5 version as long as it could keep its current version up for Windows Phone users. 

Google apparently didn't like this, and has since blocked Microsoft's YouTube app. 

"We know that this has been frustrating, to say the least, for our customers," wrote Howard. "We have always had one goal: to provide our users a YouTube experience on Windows Phone that’s on par with the YouTube experience available to Android and iPhone users. Google’s objections to our app are not only inconsistent with Google’s own commitment of openness, but also involve requirements for a Windows Phone app that it doesn’t impose on its own platform or Apple’s (both of which use Google as the default search engine, of course).

"We think it’s clear that Google just doesn’t want Windows Phone users to have the same experience as Android and Apple users, and that their objections are nothing other than excuses. Nonetheless, we are committed to giving our users the experience they deserve, and are happy to work with Google to solve any legitimate concerns they may have. In the meantime, we once again request that Google stop blocking our YouTube app."

This isn't the first run-in between Microsoft and Google over the use of a full YouTube app for Windows Phone. Back in January of this year, Dave Heiner, Vice President and Deputy General Counsel of Microsoft, wrote a post about the fact that the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) is not doing enough to force Google to conform with antitrust laws. More specifically, Microsoft is upset that Windows Phone still cannot get a full YouTube app while the competition (Android and iOS) are able.

If you'd like to read the entire post by Howard, it's right here

Source: TechNet



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What goes around comes around...
By Kaldor on 8/16/2013 11:03:01 AM , Rating: 2
MS has held nearly all the Android phone makers up and made them pay in for their "patents" on a per device basis. This is Google giving MS the big middle finger in response IMO.

Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt Motorola the only one that has told MS to get bent as far as paying the "patent tax" to MS on each device?




RE: What goes around comes around...
By Reclaimer77 on 8/16/2013 11:26:29 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah having a real hard time feeling sorry for Microsoft here. And Microsoft complaining about anti-trust violations? Microsoft, the anti-trust kingpin? Sweet irony...

Translation: "We cannot build a compelling ecosystem for our phones, or a decent app catalog, we need Google to carry us! Even while we run a "Google is screwing you" negative add campaign."


RE: What goes around comes around...
By kleinma on 8/16/2013 11:33:19 AM , Rating: 5
So because of things that happened in the 90s and MS was forced to pay up for, google should be allowed to do the exact same thing now 20 years later? Doesn't that show nothing has been learned and nothing has been fixed? I know you are super anti microsoft, but I fail to see how this is good for ANYONE. I mean does it affect you personally if there is a decent youtube app for windows phone? No it doesn't but you get a smile on your face for anything that is a blow to Microsoft, so you feel good about this kind of stuff.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Kaldor on 8/16/13, Rating: -1
RE: What goes around comes around...
By kleinma on 8/16/2013 11:53:30 AM , Rating: 5
Assumiung you meant to say google isn't forcing anyone to do anything, you are wrong. Google won't make a youtube app for windows phone. That is fine, they certainly don't have to. However when Microsoft makes their own, conforming to all the rules google set forth in their API terms, and then google yanks it because of a list of rediculous demands that google themselves don't follow with the apps they make for other platforms, then they are FORCING microsoft into a position to make a crappy, underperforming app using HTML5. They also made claims that the app doesn't show the correct ads, which MS responded by saying the ads that are being shown are limited by google's own API, MS has no control over it.

This is google being dicks on purpose, doesn't matter if you like or hate microsoft, this is bad for consumers, and sets a scary precedent for how google will likely deal with rivals going forward.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Kaldor on 8/16/13, Rating: -1
RE: What goes around comes around...
By kleinma on 8/16/2013 12:05:42 PM , Rating: 5
I'm fairly certain they want it programmed in HTML5 because unicorns have a horn in the middle of their head. See what I did there? Made a totally nonsense statement without anything to back it up. Just like you did.

Where is the data that states that the programming language used has anything to do with the revenue stream of youtube for google? All the actual interaction with google's services comes directly from the API google provides. The language used to build the app around it has nothing at all to do with anything.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Kaldor on 8/16/13, Rating: -1
By Totally on 8/16/2013 1:15:44 PM , Rating: 2
I just read that 'Solid' article. It's pretty much another copy of MS's paraphrased blog post circulating around the tech site. If you read the DT article you don't need to read it again. Also ..."It raises valid points for both sides of the argument." There weren't ANY other than the ones already outlined in the blog post.

pointlessly linking to pointless articles is a fanboy trademark btw.


By inighthawki on 8/16/2013 5:33:44 PM , Rating: 2
What does HTML5 have to do with Google's revenue stream?


RE: What goes around comes around...
By mckinney on 8/16/2013 12:23:10 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I mean does it affect you personally if there is a decent youtube app for windows phone?


Does it affect you personally if there is MS Office apps for Android/IOS phones or tablets? MS rubs everyone's nose in it that doesn't have Windows devices. MS exploits their advantages, Google exploits theirs. Nothing new here


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Kaldor on 8/16/13, Rating: 0
RE: What goes around comes around...
By Beefmeister on 8/16/2013 1:05:47 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The ability to be able to run Word or Excel on my phone would be extremely handy at times.


Erm, Office 365 for Mobile? It is right there in the Android market.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Cheesew1z69 on 8/16/13, Rating: 0
By kleinma on 8/17/2013 12:49:10 PM , Rating: 3
so it should be free is what you are saying?


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Kaldor on 8/16/13, Rating: -1
By kleinma on 8/16/2013 1:02:32 PM , Rating: 2
That comment was directed at reclaimer... not you.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Reclaimer77 on 8/16/13, Rating: -1
RE: What goes around comes around...
By kleinma on 8/16/2013 4:19:04 PM , Rating: 2
MS has no soverign right to youtube. They do have the right to connect to the API and create an app to connect to youtube though. Google has the right to revoke that, since they own you tube, but they can't be selective in revocation. They can't say its ok for everyone but the companies that we feel are a threat to our mobile dominance. That is called antitrust. You cannot leverage your marketplace position to create an unfair disadvantage to your competition, and if you want to bring up the fact that Microsoft has done this, then you also need to bring up the consequences and years of govt oversight that they had to pay for it with. Somehow you think its ok to say something like "well MS did it before, now its googles turn to do it to them". OK, fine, so long as google gets hauled into court over it, levied with insane daily fines, and ordered to be have govt oversight for the next 10 years to make sure their moves are not monopolistic in nature. Then maybe it is fair, except for the fact that google should know better because they know the past. There was no past in the personal computing market when MS was working to dominate it.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Reclaimer77 on 8/17/2013 8:05:44 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
They do have the right to connect to the API and create an app to connect to youtube though.


Sure, if they follow Google's guidelines. Google is saying they haven't, MS is saying Google is being a big old meanie. You've chosen to take MS side, without hearing the whole story.

quote:
They can't say its ok for everyone but the companies that we feel are a threat to our mobile dominance.


How is Microsoft a "threat" and Apple isn't? Yet Google has no problem with Apple having YouTube apps and what-not on their marketplace. Google makes a TON of profit from iOS actually.

quote:
That is called antitrust. You cannot leverage your marketplace position to create an unfair disadvantage to your competition


Now you're just making sh*t up. EVERYONE has access to YouTube, it's called a browser. Google isn't blocking WP users from YouTube. They just want Microsoft to play by their rules and make an app that doesn't break them. Instead Microsoft has thumbed their nose at those rules, and continues releasing apps that allow for ad skipping, and other things that cheat content providers from revenue.

quote:
Somehow you think its ok to say something like "well MS did it before, now its googles turn to do it to them".


No, I'm not saying that at all. I don't think what Google is doing is even REMOTELY on the same level as the US vs MS anti-trust suit.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By kleinma on 8/17/2013 12:57:06 PM , Rating: 2
How did that google koolaid taste when you drank it?


By Reclaimer77 on 8/17/2013 3:33:16 PM , Rating: 1
Does RedTroll give you wings?


RE: What goes around comes around...
By jimbojimbo on 8/16/2013 11:38:24 AM , Rating: 2
You shouldn't feel sorry for MS but you should feel sorry for all the WP owners out there that just got the shaft.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By jnemesh on 8/16/13, Rating: 0
By inighthawki on 8/16/2013 5:37:51 PM , Rating: 2
I know a number of people who have had all three phones (IOS, Android, WP) and many of them have claimed that they enjoyed their WP experience far more than the other two. WP has most of the big name apps, and the reality is that nobody actually cares about all the rest. A million apps on your store is meaningless when there's still really only 100 good ones.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By NellyFromMA on 8/19/2013 12:34:40 PM , Rating: 2
So, basically what you are saying is MS should just break Chrome with Windows Update patches and go tit-for-tat with Google here?


By Reclaimer77 on 8/19/2013 2:17:17 PM , Rating: 1
In Retardville, population you, is that even the same?

Google isn't breaking Microsoft software. And they aren't blocking WP apps out of spite. Only idiot fanbois want to believe that's going on.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By kleinma on 8/16/2013 11:31:24 AM , Rating: 5
One has nothing to do with the other. Microsoft entered into patent license agreements with various android device makers. These device makers (like samsung) aren't dinky little companies with no legal staff. They clearly felt that they were in fact infriging on patented technology, otherwise they would have said no, and fought it in court if needed. Just like they did when Apple sued (and won BTW, not saying I agree with that verdict).

Google could very well get sued by Microsoft here for anticompetitive behavior. What if Microsoft told Google that Chrome installations would no longer be allowed after a windows update because it violates some laundry list of things that they pull out of their ass. Google would be up in arms screaming anticompete.

Google's position is that Apple is not a real threat to them. They can chip away at what Apple has done, get it done faster, better, and cheaper. MS is actually the real android threat, and google is doing what it can to prevent that platform from gaining traction, by blocking its services or making the experience of those services much worse than on android counterparts.

If anyone some how thinks this is a good or justified move, then you are just against MS and want them to fail. If you don't like the windows phone platform, you certainly don't have to use it. If it is as terrible as some of you think then what do you have to worry about? it will fail and be retired and you will still never had to use it. It doesn't affect you one bit, but it certainly sheds light on googles intentions of slowly working its way into monopoly positions where it can own the most popular destinations on the web, and cripple the access for the platforms it wants to fail. "Don't be evil, unless its for the good of the company".


By Labotomizer on 8/16/2013 12:25:03 PM , Rating: 2
A logical post... Crazy.

Unless Google's story is drastically different, this is abusing their market share to stifle competition. As simple as that. It's one thing to say "we won't make Google Apps for your platform" but to change the rule of the APIs so MS can't write the software? Hmmm, does sound an awful lot like what MS did in the 90s. If it was wrong then, it's wrong now. Simple as that.

I think MyTube and MetroTube offer superior experiences to what Google provides on iOS or Android but MS should be able to put out an "official" app as well.


RE: What goes around comes around...
By Samus on 8/16/2013 3:20:10 PM , Rating: 2
Google does make an excellent Maps client for WP8 now. I suspect this block has more to do with Microsoft's client circumventing Google advertisements on YouTube than anything else.


By kleinma on 8/16/2013 6:05:20 PM , Rating: 2
I suspect you didn't read the article.


By kleinma on 8/16/2013 6:07:24 PM , Rating: 2
Also google makes no software at all for the WP8 platform except for google search.


By nikon133 on 8/18/2013 8:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
Nothing to do with that.

MS, at least, is licensing their IPs to Android makers. Apple, on the other hand, is mostly trying to shut down Android makers for good. And yet, you have perfectly good YouTube, Google Maps... apps for iOS.

I don't think this is anything more than Google trying to stop (or at least slow down) potential future competitor while they are still weak. MS's business practices are closer to Google's - being based on ecosystem of OEMs rather than inhouse software and hardware creation - than Apple's, so I wouldn't be surprised if Google does not consider MS potentially bigger competitor than Apple is/will be in the future.

While I don't really have soft spot for any of those heavy-hitters, I don't like this behaviour. If Google can do this without being penalised for such behaviour, what will stop MS in future to do the same with their services and Android users - Hotmail/Outlook.com, SkyDrive, even Exchange - if they can find a way to pull it without being penalised?

At the end, it is us users who will suffer.


By NellyFromMA on 8/19/2013 12:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
How dare they get paid for things they worked on.


By DaveLessnau on 8/16/2013 10:53:27 AM , Rating: 5
I've seen Microsoft's take on what's happening here:

http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues...

But, AFAIK, there's no detailed list of Google's reasons for their actions. Outside of their waving their hands in the air and saying they don't like it, I've found nothing. Anyone else have any luck?

As things lie, it looks like this is Google being petty. I just wish I had both sides of the story.




By jnemesh on 8/16/2013 12:21:34 PM , Rating: 2
Google side is that they are not using the APIs that Google provided for them to use (so called "legacy" APIs). Microsoft wants the NEW APIs and Google doesnt want to let them use those. Google has offered to help MS create a YouTube app that DOES comply with Google's rules, but MS doesn't feel that is good enough, so they reverse engineered the official Android and/or iOS apps to get theirs to work. Google said that this is a violation of their terms of service (hey, it's THEIR house, MS is a guest in YouTubeland!) and blocked access to the site from the unofficial, reverse-engineered app.


RE: Is There a Link Showing Google's Detailed Reasons?
By Da W on 8/17/2013 9:46:56 AM , Rating: 3
Ms should ban Google from any Windows computer. Sée what happens...


By Reclaimer77 on 8/17/2013 9:56:06 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Ms should ban Google from any Windows computer. Sée what happens...


Tons of people stop using Windows? That's what would happen.

Great plan! Let's make you CEO lol.


By kleinma on 8/17/2013 12:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
Well Googles ban on windows phone has made me stop using google's other services, so it works both ways.


By Reclaimer77 on 8/17/2013 3:29:34 PM , Rating: 2
And you call me biased? At least now its clear why you're being such an obnoxious troll over this manufactured issue.

I never thought I would see the day where people viewed Microsoft, THE Microsoft, as a poor sympathetic underdog in a software dispute.


By SpartanJet on 8/17/2013 7:15:31 PM , Rating: 2
I'd never use google again myself. Microsoft is of much greater value to me than any crap google puts out.


By nikon133 on 8/18/2013 9:38:43 PM , Rating: 2
I have strong feeling Google would lose much more than Microsoft.


By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2013 10:10:15 PM , Rating: 1
Well Microsoft can't do that, obviously. And who wants to see Microsoft revert back into a circa 1990's tech bully anyway? Well I guess Google haters do lol.

Microsoft has developed a serious image problem since Gates left, let's be honest. I don't think going around, arbitrarily banning services and websites hundreds of millions of people use daily is the best way to go about fixing that image.

The fact that Microsoft is even in this position tells us all we need to know about their leadership. How could Microsoft, THE software company, the biggest on Earth - let this Google company come out of virtually nowhere and beat them so hard in the mobile game? To the point that Windows Phone users can't even have an official YouTube app?

It's embarrassing!! And just...just...HILARIOUS! MUHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!! :)


By retrospooty on 8/19/2013 9:03:49 AM , Rating: 2
" How could Microsoft, THE software company, the biggest on Earth - let this Google company come out of virtually nowhere and beat them so hard in the mobile game? "

Simple really, it's piss poor leadership. MS is concerned with what MS wants and MS needs and is making choices to that end. They are NOT making choices based on what customers want and/or need. There is plenty of time to right the ship though. As long as they figure out the issue.


By nikon133 on 8/19/2013 9:18:15 PM , Rating: 2
Hilarious? Common, sadly.

Most top brands went through crisis at some point, often self-inflicted. Some re-bounced, some didn't.

IBM PCs and laptops from '80 and '90. Returned as Lenovo, currently No.1 PC vendor.

Nokia and Ericsson were GSM phones to buy back in '90. Ericsson is out of race, Nokia... just might make it.

Apple almost went extinct not so long ago, and look at them now.

DELL and HP are currently in their down phase, and I fear we haven't seen worst of them yet.

Sony. From King of electronics, to barely hanging on.

It comes and goes, for everyone of them. Except that good old Microsoft is in so specific situation that, no matter how bad they do, they will be kept afloat. When most of the world's IT infrastructure relies on your product (without even consideration their share in personal computing), you cannot really sink without some sort of global apocalypse happening around.

But sure, they can shrink significantly. Probably will.

And of course, I do remember MS bully from early '90. I was Netscape and Word Perfect user back in the days. Naturally I don't want MS to go back there... but I also don't want Google to provoke them back there. Or to become bully of this decade. Which they already are, to some extend - considering iOS maps, WP8 "Cinderella" syndrome.

Like I said. Google still needs MS more than MS needs Google... I think. If I were Google, I wouldn't explore how far MS can go if right buttons are pushed. Maybe they really can't. But I don't think this path Google is taking right now is wise.


By drycrust3 on 8/16/2013 12:45:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But, AFAIK, there's no detailed list of Google's reasons for their actions. Outside of their waving their hands in the air and saying they don't like it, I've found nothing...
As things lie, it looks like this is Google being petty.

I agree, Google are making themselves look silly in this. Youtube is Google's platform, and as such everyone that wants to use it has to comply with whatever industrial standards Google set for that platform.
Microsoft have often in the past been accused of releasing software that doesn't comply with the then internet standards, forcing everyone else to make adjustments to accommodate Microsoft.
The problem here is that if someone asks "What standards does Youtube require?" and Google answers "We won't tell you", then that is just being silly. Since this is Microsoft, then it could be this could backfire on Google.
To be fair, this is just as silly as Microsoft telling some Android phone manufacturer "Your products violate some of our patents", and when asked which ones is told "We won't tell you".
My guess is that Google actually do have good reasons, other than just share spite, for doing what they are doing, but by not communicating these reasons they just make themselves look childish.


Newsflash...
By Motoman on 8/16/2013 11:34:08 AM , Rating: 1
...you don't need an "app" to use YouTube on your phone. Or Facebook. Or...well, for much of anything.

Your phone has a browser. It can save bookmarks. Use it.

This is like people who find themselves "locked out" of their cars when the battery in their remote dies.




RE: Newsflash...
By kleinma on 8/16/2013 11:39:23 AM , Rating: 4
Then why is there an iOS and Android youtube app made by google? Clearly google feels like a native app to the platform offers a superior experience for the site, even on their own native platform, otherwise they would direct people to just use the browser on android.


RE: Newsflash...
By jimbojimbo on 8/16/2013 11:43:17 AM , Rating: 2
You can use the very basic features of either site via a browser but you don't get a lot. Can you use your camera to record a video then just click two buttons to upload it to Youtube if you're using a browser? You don't get the installed addins that make it MUCH easier to use.
Tell me you don't have any of the applications installed and just use the browser for everything. If so you don't know what you're missing.


RE: Newsflash...
By RandomFool on 8/16/2013 11:57:14 AM , Rating: 2
FYI, My car has a push button start and no mechanical key. I would be locked out if the remote died.


RE: Newsflash...
By Motoman on 8/16/2013 1:57:26 PM , Rating: 2
That sounds like a remarkably bad design decision. Like, not having a replaceable battery in a cell phone, for example.


RE: Newsflash...
By ven1ger on 8/19/2013 2:38:20 PM , Rating: 2
My car also has a push button start, but if my remote is not technically dead but the batteries are low (though there is a warning when the FOB battery is running low), I can still place the FOB up close to the start button and engine will still start up, if you let your battery drain completely then that's your problem.

Additionally, there is a 2nd FOB that your car usually comes with, it's attached to my wife's set of keys, so there are alternatives.


RE: Newsflash...
By kmmatney on 8/16/2013 12:22:47 PM , Rating: 2
That is what Nintendo did with the WiiU. The Google Youtube App for WiiU is really bad - however Nintendo worked around this by making some customizations in their browser to deal specifically with the Youtube site, and make good use of the TV+touchscreen combination.


WiiU YouTube App (and work around)
By kmmatney on 8/16/2013 12:19:29 PM , Rating: 3
The WiiU Youtube App is the biggest piece of crap I've ever used as well. Luckily, Nintendo was able to get past Google's inadequate App by making special provision in their web browser for the Youtube site. So just using the web browser to access Youtube is enjoyable. Maybe Microsoft can do the same - customize Internet explorer just for the Youtube web site, to give users a better experience.




!*#@ you google.
By InsGadget on 8/17/2013 5:57:17 PM , Rating: 3
Congratulations on driving even more people away from your ad-ridden services.




Slippery Slope
By overlandpark4me on 8/16/2013 12:55:08 PM , Rating: 2
if they start pulling this crap, it will just be a back and forth debacle. Only the customer will lose. I'm not a fan of either, but Google comes and and says they spy on GMAIL users, bends over and grabs the soap to the commie Chinese, and now this?




Gist of it
By Totally on 8/16/2013 1:29:40 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft: STOP BLOCKIN' ME, BRO
Google: Nah
Microsoft: Why you blockin' me?
Google: 'Cuz
Microsoft: BRO, STOP BLOCKIN' ME
Google: Nah




Why would you need an App?
By ballist1x on 8/19/2013 9:26:44 AM , Rating: 2
When YT works fine in a standard browser with Flash?

Even Android dont get it, why would i want to browse the web on a browser and then have to switch to an invasive app to view a video that could otherwise be viewed on screen in my existing browser?!?!

Just implement flash properly.




As a Windows 8 phone user....
By robm on 8/19/2013 12:16:13 PM , Rating: 2
I was about to get angry then realized i've been watching youtube clips on my windows 8 phone since i had it. directly through the browser and never realized it wasn't an app.

I checked and there are several non MS you tube apps in the Windows Store that google doesn't block..

So i was going to get angry but realized i'm not impacted by this at all.




www.work25.com
By arthurt1johnson on 8/17/2013 4:57:48 PM , Rating: 1
upto I saw the receipt 4 $5081, I didnt believe that my mom in-law was like they say truly bringing in money in their spare time from there labtop.. there sisters roommate haz done this for less than 8 months and just repayed the mortgage on there condo and purchased a gorgeous Fiat Panda. go to, top here




Contrary to popular belief....
By jnemesh on 8/16/13, Rating: 0
arthurt1johnson
By arthurt1johnson on 8/16/13, Rating: -1
"Mac OS X is like living in a farmhouse in the country with no locks, and Windows is living in a house with bars on the windows in the bad part of town." -- Charlie Miller

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