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Microsoft refines its two-pronged approach to tablets

OK, let's be blunt; Microsoft’s first generation Surface tablets were a flop. The company took a $900 million charge on unsold inventory, and refurbished units have been dumped onto the market at rock bottom prices (pricing that some have said the units should have launched with in the first place).
 
However, the company is looking to right the wrongs of its first generation tablets with a reinvigorated second generation. Starting with Surface Pro 2, Microsoft has made the ClearType HD display is 46 percent more color accurate and added Dolby Pro 2 speakers for improved audio quality.
 
Under the hood, graphics performance has been improved by 50 percent, and overall performance has increased by 20 percent thanks to Haswell. In Microsoft's words, it's "faster than 95 percent of laptops today".

 

Surface 2 (L) and Surface Pro 2 (R)
 
The use of Intel's Haswell processor also means that Surface Pro 2 is quieter and cooler than the first generation. In addition, battery life has been improved by 75 percent.
 
Using the new Surface Power Cover (with its own integrated 30 Whr battery), battery life increases to 2.5 times that of the original Surface Pro.


Surface Pro 2 Docking Station

The kickstand has also been improved, and includes two positions this time around. The Surface Pro 2 will also be available with the Surface Docking Station. This will allow the tablet to output up to 3840x2160 to an external monitor and includes three USB 2.0 ports, one USB 3.0 port, a Mini DisplayPort, Ethernet, and audio in/out.


Surface Type Cover 2
 
The new Type Cover 2 is available in pink, blue, purple, and black. The accessory itself is 1 mm thinner then the previous generation, making it nearly as thin as the first generation Touch Cover. And Microsoft was able to accomplish this while making the keys backlit.
 
Next up is Surface 2 (the RT moniker has been dropped), which is now available in a nice silver color. The device is thinner and lighter than the original Surface RT, and it's of course much faster thanks to its NVIDIA Tegra 4 processor. The Surface 2 now comes with a 1080p ClearType display and the onboard USB 2.0 port has been upgraded to USB 3.0. Surface 2 also gets a two-position kickstand and battery life has been increased by 25 percent.


Surface 2
 
Both the Surface Pro 2 and Surface 2 are built around Windows 8.1 (Windows 8.1 RT in the case of Surface 2).
 
When it comes to pricing, Surface 2 will start at $449 for the 32GB model. Surface Pro 2 starts at $899 and will be available in 64GB and 128GB versions (4GB of RAM) along with 256GB and 512GB versions (8GB of RAM).
 
Both tablets will launch on October 22.



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Surface 2 - more confusion
By fishman on 9/23/2013 12:43:06 PM , Rating: 3
Back when it was called Surface-RT, it was confusing for some of the general public that it couldn't run regular windows programs - but the Surface could. Now the Surface 2 can't run the regular windows programs. I see even more confusion ahead by the general public. (Of course, we forum readers understand so there is no problem for us)




RE: Surface 2 - more confusion
By StanO360 on 9/23/2013 3:13:33 PM , Rating: 5
I just don't think that was the case. I would even bet that MS would be glad to hear that that many people were even thinking about the RT to be confused!

That's been the problem, customers just don't even know it exists. To draw their attention you need something to make them look at a product that is not the default (Apple in this case) hugely different included product or pricing.

The RT is a nice product, but the need to explain to people why it's valuable to them. Usually this means a better product at a lower price. Which it is, but it's a different product, but better for some and worse for others.


RE: Surface 2 - more confusion
By w8gaming on 9/23/2013 9:33:35 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think customer not knowing RT exist is an issue. Why? Because everywhere the Surface Pro is being sold, RT will be sitting there side by side advertising a much cheaper price. Dropping RT from the name obviously is the marketing department attempt to remove the bad reputation surrounding the moniker RT now. However, this might not be a very wise choice. As MS obviously does not believe in a price wars strategy for Windows 8, the next best thing MS should do is to closely monitor the unit sales and cut production at the first hint of trouble to avoid having too much excess inventory. Hey, if you want to buy a "device" company, you need to learn some inventory control. Hardware is not like software, hardware depreciates in value the longer it sits on the shelf.


Still too expensive... and still a weird hybrid
By tayb on 9/23/2013 2:11:14 PM , Rating: 3
Let me just say that I think the Surface Pro is a great device. I use one at my office and I love it. It's great to use as a notebook and it's great to use the pen and jot down notes during meetings. I will probably get a Surface 2 for work use as well. Read between the lines: I like it but would not spend my own money on one.

Three flaws in my opinion:

It is a premium device and it deserves a premium price but Microsoft does not have the brand recognition to command a premium price. Microsoft is a Ford/GM in the device world and they are trying to launch a product with a Lexus price. It's just not happening. It's a great device but the market just isn't going to buy it. Only Apple seems capable of launching products with laughably high prices.

It's too expensive even for the quality. If it were $800 for 128GB and the battery cover it would probably fly off the shelves. Without those two add-ons the device is not even worth a mention and with them the price balloons to over $1,100. The vast majority in the tablet market is not interested in a $1,100 device.

The last issue is that while I do love the Surface Pro it is above average as a laptop and far below average as a tablet. It's not the best of any world. It does a reasonable job replacing my work machine but it is slower and has limited storage capacity. It does a terrible job replacing my iPad or Nexus 7 as the battery life is abysmal (and still is) and it's too big/weighs too much. Most people in this market are going to look at this device and conclude that it is cheaper and superior to buy a $300 tablet and $700 notebook.

I honestly just don't think Microsoft understands the tablet market. The first iteration of the Surface was an absolute embarrassing flop and they've essentially gone back to the drawing board and came back with the same product.




By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:43:03 PM , Rating: 2
The Pro had terrible battery life. That was the biggest drawback. Never mind that you could only get them at the MS store for the first half of its life. I couldn't find them locally until about 2 months ago, and by then it would have been stupid to buy one with the refresh so near. MS screwed up terribly at marketing and logistics


By w8gaming on 9/23/2013 9:46:12 PM , Rating: 2
I hope Microsoft learn how to manage their logistics better if they want to be a "device company". Do you know how soon Samsung make Galaxy Note 3 available after initial announcement? Less than a month, available all over the world.


Bulky hybrid laptop
By XZerg on 9/23/2013 1:38:32 PM , Rating: 2
i rather want a bulky hybrid laptop with Surface's Cover Type just to have the following options:

1) upgradable memory - supporting up to 16gb if not more
2) changeable storage - change/upgrade ssds

i don't need a fast gpu (igpu is fast enough) for programming and office use. i like the usb 3 addition and the 1080p screen.

In the current version, it is just too damn expensive compared to a comparable laptop and with less options. i understand that this is a small frame but i don't mind the bulky-ness of laptop. i just have problems using the laptop on the go with the keyboard demanding too much space and cannot be removed in a reading mode.




RE: Bulky hybrid laptop
By StanO360 on 9/23/2013 3:16:23 PM , Rating: 3
? Premium, lightweight laptops are more than that? And that's without a digitizer.


The problem is the Microsoft Store
By freedom4556 on 9/25/2013 6:59:47 AM , Rating: 2
The reason that Windows 8 on ARM will never take off doesn't have to do with the fact that it is a different architecture or any performance issues, but because Microsoft is forcing everything into the Windows store. Think about what isn't in and will never go into the MS Store:
Steam & associated games
Open source software
Torrent programs
IDEs
Cad/Engineering Programs
Mathematical programs (e.g. Matlab)
Professional-grade photo, audio, or video editors

What does that leave us with? Browsers and media players. If I could pare down my applications to that, what exactly is the draw of Windows? This is Windows Phone 8 and Metro/Modern UI's problem as well. It's not that people wouldn't recompile for a new processor architecture, is that they don't want to send dear Microsoft 30% of their sales for the privilege or have their precious freedom infringed on by MS's legalese just to be in the store (in the case of the FOSS guys). This is all besides the fact that everybody currently has to recode to WPF so their apps run in Metro (except MS who graciously allows their own office products to run in desktop view, even on RT).

Only Intel-based Surface really has a change, and even at that it's a slim one.




By barturtle on 9/30/2013 7:39:04 AM , Rating: 2
Hmmm. Doesn't iOS have this same issue with the Apple Store?


Type Cover Colors?
By fic2 on 9/23/2013 12:09:07 PM , Rating: 1
So, Pink, Purple and baby Blue - clearly going after the female market which Apple probably already owns.
Black is the only color I would consider.




RE: Type Cover Colors?
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 12:15:08 PM , Rating: 2
Since you are clearly the market they want, I guess they should just scrap the other colours.


Warranty?
By Gunbuster on 9/23/2013 12:37:52 PM , Rating: 2
How does warranty work on these? Thinking of getting a Surface Pro 2 for the sales rep where I work.

If you have to ship it away that's a deal breaker for business...




Innovate or die as they say
By cheth on 9/23/2013 12:53:07 PM , Rating: 2
Having lost marketshare leadership in the smartphone and tablet computer markets despite having early products, Microsoft is now trying to leapfrog its competitors with this new category of hybrid tablet/laptop device. I won't pretend to know the answer, but my two cents is that many end users seem happy with having a reduced functionality (albeit more portable) device that relies more on cloud services than a full-function device (less portable) that can do everything with or without the cloud.

Hats off to Microsoft for trying. They've got an uphill battle to fight.

By the way, those initial Surface commercials with the dancers were cool, maybe even exciting.. reminded me a bit of the initial ipod commercials with the silhouette dancers. But those Surface commercials did little to educate me on what the device was about.. I mean am I suppose to get up and dance or get some work done on Surface? :)




Bloated
By danjw1 on 9/23/2013 2:35:03 PM , Rating: 2
How much of the storage is used up by Windows? That is one of there big issues. If the OS takes up even 10% of the storage that is just plain too much.




By GotThumbs on 9/27/2013 12:14:46 AM , Rating: 2
I think many people are overlooking the key difference between the Surface Pro's and all the other "Tablets" including the Ipads.

The Surface Pro is a Tablet PC and should really be compared to the macbooks.

Our office has two of the Surface Pros and I'm salivating at the Surface Pro II with 8 gigs of ram, 256GB SSD, and 3.0 USB. My boss has already said I can order one in the coming months.

It will replace my android tablet (which I love) and my Dell Laptop. We run SQL Server and Toad (Oracle), so I'm looking forward to slinging some code on my Surface Pro II during meetings to get the data on the spot. :-)

~Best wishes keeping what you earned.




what's the point?
By Captain Awesome on 9/27/2013 10:10:52 AM , Rating: 2
What's the point of buying an expensive tablet to run Windows programs, when you can do the same thing with a cheap tablet that remote desktops to your PC? I did this last week with an iPad using an app from ASUS called WiFi GO.




Hope they are available here too
By Visual on 9/24/2013 3:57:55 AM , Rating: 1
The original Surface Pro never even went on sale in my country. If it did, I'd have bought one.
The new one looks great too.

The only drawbacks are lack of a proper keyboard dock, and MS being a discriminating bitch to Eastern Europe.

The RT version on the other hand better turn out cheaper than Atom versions this time around, or it's pointless. I'd probably still buy one just to see how developing for it works, but I don't see why regular users would ever get it over a Bay Trail tablet.




Wow, Just Wow
By klstay on 9/24/2013 12:10:24 PM , Rating: 1
FAIL That ship is truly rudderless...




Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By TheEinstein on 9/23/13, Rating: -1
RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 11:48:23 AM , Rating: 2
Agree.

I'm reading this article and nodding my head at all the improvements. I'm thinking to myself "wow, this could really compel some people to switch!"...

until I got to the prices. What are they thinking?


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 11:54:11 AM , Rating: 3
You do realise that those Samsung phones you love so much would be much more expensive than the Surface 2 (non-pro) without carrier subsidies, right? And the Pro blows away the MacBook Air for less.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 12:30:56 PM , Rating: 2
"You do realise that those Samsung phones you love so much would be much more expensive than the Surface 2 (non-pro) without carrier subsidies, right? And the Pro blows away the MacBook Air for less."

You are correct... And yet, no-one is buying Surfaces in any significant #'s. MS needs to concentrate on why that is.


By inighthawki on 9/23/2013 12:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
Because you cannot buy a Surface 2 with a phone contract?


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 1:00:14 PM , Rating: 3
The iPhone and Galaxy would not sell in nearly the number they do if people had to pay the 6-700 dollar MSRP.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 1:06:28 PM , Rating: 2
What is your point? Carrier subsidies exist in the same manor for any phone. Surface doesn't compete with those products, it competes with iPad, Kindle, Nexus tablets etc... And regardless of how good they are, no-one wants them, at least not in any significant #'s.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:17:42 PM , Rating: 2
The Kindle and Nexus are not in the same category pricewise as either the iPad or Surface for obvious reasons. They are just as much subsidized as phone are, just by different companies for different reasons.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By danbob999 on 9/23/2013 3:18:38 PM , Rating: 3
If Google can "subsidize" (ie selling with low profit margin) the Nexus, Microsoft can subsidize the Surface too.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 4:53:35 PM , Rating: 2
MS would get bashed for competing with OEMs if they did that. They might even have another round of anti-trust fines from the money-grubbing EU. For some reason, no one holds Google to the same standards.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By nafhan on 9/23/2013 4:58:46 PM , Rating: 2
That might be a reason it's overpriced. It's still overpriced from a consumer perspective.


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 5:02:51 PM , Rating: 2
It only seems overpriced because people got used to loss leaders and subsidies in their mobile pricing.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By BZDTemp on 9/23/2013 5:59:49 PM , Rating: 1
The EU is not "money grubbing". The EU acting on behalf of consumers and competitors enforcing laws that are there to ensure fair and open competition. You should be glad the EU is doing that rather than letting big companies getting away with all their dirty tricks.

And as for the money try and learn a little about what the EU is and you may realize the fines put out against big companies are of no consequence to the EU finances. The EU represents over half a billion people and it is the worlds biggest economy.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 6:04:12 PM , Rating: 4
Oh please, what are you shoveling pal?

quote:
You should be glad the EU is doing that rather than letting big companies getting away with all their dirty tricks.


And the EU should be glad those "dirty" companies exist, or else they might have to develop their own technologies and products.

Seriously the EU is a goddamn black hole. Everything is sucked in, and nothing comes out.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Paj on 9/24/2013 8:05:58 AM , Rating: 1
The EU is far from perfect, but it does do many beneficial, important things, particularly where consumer protection is concerned.

quote:
And the EU should be glad those "dirty" companies exist, or else they might have to develop their own technologies and products.


It's pretty clear from this that you could benefit from doing a bit more research into what the EU actually is. It's a public entity, not private.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/24/2013 2:49:33 PM , Rating: 2
I'm aware of that, it wasn't my point.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but pretty much every ubiquitous technologies and products we use come from North America or Asia. Coincidence?

The EU might want to examine the impact their "consumer protections" are having on their markets. Especially when it comes to technologies and products. They are crushing innovation. Rampant Socialism isn't helping either.

Instead of fining the Google's and Microsoft's of the world, they should ask themselves "where are OUR Google's and Microsoft's??"


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By BZDTemp on 9/24/2013 4:38:32 PM , Rating: 1
What a wonderful simplistic view you have of the world.

For sure a lot of great things are going on in the US but thinking that the rest of the world has nothing to offer is rather narrow minded.

Just take the way that socialism is a dirty word in the US which is really rather sad. You really should open you eye to the world and if you do you'll may find that the "socialism" found in the EU is preferable to a society where the middle class is struggling and the top 1% is grabbing everything for them self.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/24/2013 8:29:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but thinking that the rest of the world has nothing to offer is rather narrow minded.


Did I say that?

Look I know you don't want to swallow your pride and admit that pretty much everything awesome, practical, revolutionary and "game-changing" that we have, we owe to the West and Asia..but them's the facts!!

You wouldn't even be on your computer, talking to someone on the Internet, if it wasn't for America! I know you absolutely hate when you're reminded of that too, it tears you up inside. You can't stand the truth.

quote:
Just take the way that socialism is a dirty word in the US which is really rather sad.


Socialism has failed EVERYWHERE it's been tried aside from a few isolated examples. Hello? Most of Europe is currently in crisis. During the 20'th century socialism in Europe collapsed entirely over and over, only to be later reformed and re-purposed.

Why do you even have a "European Union" today? And even that has failed due to Euro-Socialism. Emergency funds are a temporary fix.

Your saving grace and economic powerhouse, Germany, owes it's success not to socialism, but purely CAPITALIST policies. Funny how you extol the virtues of socialism, while crawling hat-in-hand to your Bavarian capitalist betters for a bailout!

The fact that you equate socialism with the betterment of the population as a whole proves you're either a teenager, or someone who hasn't done the most basic of research.

Do you think Capitalism is the reason America's middle class is struggling? You must be joking! We've been plunging headlong into Socialism for over a decade now, and guess what, things are -predictably- getting worse!!


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Cixelsid on 9/26/2013 12:33:12 PM , Rating: 2
Uhm... Germany is semi-capitalist. By America's standards, Germany is a socialist country. State mandated medial aid, state pension fund contributions, solidarity tax (for rebuilding East Germany), state mandated unemployment insurance. My wife gets a year's salary from the state while we take care of our firstborn. As for tech contributions from Europe, just off the top of my head, Nokia, Airbus, Tele Atlas and not forgetting the whole automotive industry in Germany which has properly destroyed any semblance of auto manufacturing that exists in America. But then again, what do I know, I'm just an German software engineer.


By Cixelsid on 9/26/2013 12:49:35 PM , Rating: 2
BTW France is a socialist country and the Netherlands is a monarchy with a very socialist government. Economic powerhouses that make do with a tenth of the labor and landmass that America has. Germany is the third strongest economy in the world, with only 80 million people and less than a third the landmass of the US. Capitalism did not bring us here, the hard work and rebuilding efforts of our fathers and grandfathers did.

In the end it was greed and an unregulated investment market that caused the 2008 financial crisis. It was austerity and the social safety nets put in place by the socialist state that saved Germany.


By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 4:30:45 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, I am not seeing your point.

I was saying above that he was comparing "direct sale tablets" to "carrier contract sold phones". The phones have subsidies and tablets don't. Not a valid comparison. You have to compare tablets to other tablets.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 1:09:42 PM , Rating: 3
Talk about going off on a useless tangent. You and inighthawk go off the deep end constantly and it's annoying.

Why even bring up Samsung phones or smartphones in general here? It's a completely insane comparison!

Nobody else sells tablets or PC's using the carrier model, and they seem to do just fine. So why even bring that up here with the Microsoft Surface as some kind of bizarre defense?

You guys need to flush out your goddamn head gear and make some sense once in a while.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By inighthawki on 9/23/2013 1:35:13 PM , Rating: 1
Says the guy who brought up PC computing efficiency and price comparisons to a innocent remark about how I wished the next gen consoles had better hardware, and then brings me up into an this conversation. Yeah *I'm* the one going off on tangents.


By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 1:48:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Says the guy who brought up PC computing efficiency and price comparisons to a innocent remark about how I wished the next gen consoles had better hardware


Except you didn't say that. You said the consoles had "awful" hardware, and you brought up the video card in your PC as an example of presumably "non awful" hardware.

Nowhere did you come out and say "I wish the next gen consoles had better hardware", or even elude to that.

Anyway who cares? This is a totally different discussion.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:16:04 PM , Rating: 2
It is relevant. You cannot price tablets as cheaply as the Kindle and Nexus tablets because both of those are sold either at cost or at a loss to lock people into an ecosystem, either for advertising or a content store. MS has no interest in selling a loss leader tablet. Even if they wanted to, people would be screaming at them for undercutting the OEMs.

I am trying to drive home the point that the hardware in higher end ARM tablets is at least as costly to manufacture as the higher end phones, yet you expect them to be sold at half the price? I am making perfect sense, not my fault you are too stupid to see that.

To state it another way, since you can't grasp simple concepts. You think a $400 tablet is expensive, but think a $650 phone isn't?

No one else besides Apple, Samsung and Amazon are even a factor in the tablet market, so I am not sure where you get that "everyone else" does fine. Most tablet makers have been losing money in the tablet market, or are selling barely any. It is not just MS struggling. Or they are cheap garbage on Android 2.2 selling for 50 bucks.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Bubbacub on 9/23/2013 4:23:20 PM , Rating: 2
but there are no win rt OEM's left - they could (and should) sell the ARM version of surface at nexus levels of pricing.

after a couple of years of market share building they could then increase the price


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 4:59:29 PM , Rating: 2
The Nexus has far less hardware cost, as in a smaller screen, less RAM, smaller amount of Flash, no memory card slots. While I personally don't have any interest in RT devices, and think they should have just used WinPhone as their tablet OS, I think the argument that they need to match Nexus prices absurd.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 4:33:50 PM , Rating: 2
"You cannot price tablets as cheaply as the Kindle and Nexus tablets because both of those are sold either at cost or at a loss to lock people into an ecosystem, either for advertising or a content store. MS has no interest in selling a loss leader tablet"

Are you completely incapable of seeing logic? Reclaimer is right, WTF. Do you think MS doesn't benefit from people using Windows? They make money from MS office, Exchange CAL's server CAL's, other apps and many other ways. Google is just selling better products that people actually want to buy. That is it and that is all.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 4:56:19 PM , Rating: 1
Fuck, you two are stupid. If MS used predatory pricing to sell their tablets, the EU would be all over them. I'm done with this conversation. You guys are so far up Google's ass it is pointless speaking to you. Carry on with your two man circle jerk.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 5:06:22 PM , Rating: 2
Whatever man... All I am saying is that people arent interested in buying MS's tablets. You want to blame it all over the place except on MS.

Good luck with that logic.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Luticus on 9/24/2013 1:19:13 PM , Rating: 2
I'll take a surface 2 pro any day! Performance of a gaming PC in a tablet format at a decent price, plus amazing battery life as compared to any other full featured tablet...

Now if we're talking a surface 2 (RT) I agree, I'm not ever going to buy one for the same reason I'm not touching android or IOS tablets. I want a PC in the tablet form factor, NOT an up-scaled cell phone.


By invidious on 9/24/2013 4:18:40 PM , Rating: 2
+6

Most of the arguing in this thread is due to people not distinguishing which version of the surface 2 they are talking about. Everyone who is advocating the sufrace 2 is ambiguously talking about the pro version and assuming that everyone realizes such. It is pretty obvious to me but clearly not to everyone.

Comparing Surface 2 PRO to the iPad in terms of price is just wrong. There is no Apple product that competes with the Surface 2 Pro so there is no point in drawing comparisons to Apple. But if you really must, you should be comparing it to a macbook or macbook air.

In absolute terms the Surface 2 Pro is a really cool machine. I would love to have one. But lets wait for some 3rd party reviews and benchmarks before we all light our hair on fire and run around screaming like lunatics.


By Ammohunt on 9/23/2013 2:35:46 PM , Rating: 2
Becasue pople want a tablet with a lightweight tablet OS and not a keyboardless(keyboard is $130) laptop with full blown Windows? Put some semblance of windows 8 phone on a tablet and watch the interest level rise. I predict the Nokia Phablet will sell well.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By augiem on 9/23/2013 4:08:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are correct... And yet, no-one is buying Surfaces in any significant #'s. MS needs to concentrate on why that is.


You guys fail to bring up the fact that the Surface RT was completely underpowered and underspec'd for the price they launched it at. Hell, it's underpowered and underspec'd even at the new clearance price... A new Nexus 7 gives you a higher res screen and faster CPU/GPU than a current RT for more than $100 less.

Microsoft seems to be FINALLY getting it. The new RT is actually competitive with a Tegra 4 and a 1080 screen and is still priced $50 lower than an iPad. I'm really pleasantly surprised to see they've finally taken the blinders off. Now I have a tiny bit of hope that they'll do the same with their Windows phones at some point and we can get the real competition off the ground at long last.

MS's problem in the last gen wasn't that they charged too much. It was the fact that the value per $ was horrible. Things are looking up.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 4:17:25 PM , Rating: 2
". A new Nexus 7 gives you a higher res screen and faster CPU/GPU than a current RT for more than $100 less."

You are right there...

"Microsoft seems to be FINALLY getting it. The new RT is actually competitive with a Tegra 4 and a 1080 screen and is still priced $50 lower than an iPad."

See what you said above. For $200 less, the Nexus 7 gives you a better screen. The Tegra 4 does outpace the SDpro in the NExus 7, but not the SD800. Tegra 4 runs hot, and isnt as fast as the latest Qualcom chips. Still prices way too high.

The other part is specs aside, people just don't seem to want it.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 5:05:17 PM , Rating: 2
To be 200 less, you need to get the 8 GB Nexus. Garbage.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 5:16:25 PM , Rating: 2
Really? Your math is as bad as the points you are trying to make...

"Surface 2 will start at $449 for the 32GB model"

My Nexus 7(2013)32mb was $249 although full MSRP is $269... So $180 cheaper. But again, the main thing is people actually want it.


By Mint on 9/24/2013 8:57:05 AM , Rating: 2
This is a 10.6" tablet, not a 7/8". It's competing with the regular iPad, Nexus 10, Galaxy Tab 10.1, etc. None of those are $200 less than the Surface 2.

There are rumors of a Surface Mini, but I doubt MS cares about that market because there's no money to be made there.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By augiem on 9/23/2013 6:26:36 PM , Rating: 2
Granted, it's not Nexus 7 competitive, but at least its iPad competitive this time around. Then again, nothing is Nexus 7 competitive, really.

It is likely more expensive to produce than the Nexus 7, is bigger (whether that is good or bad is debatable), has a faster cpu/gpu, so it's probably one rung up in class vs Nexus 7. In fact, it's much more in line with the Nexus 10 which is still $499 for a 32gb from Google. Yes, bang for the buck, Nexus 7 wins hands down. But Surface 2 it definitely not nearly the dog of a deal the last RT was.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By EnzoFX on 9/24/2013 2:34:20 PM , Rating: 2
Except a N10 can be had for $350. Over $400 and there's no point at all in switching to this new RT.


By augiem on 9/24/2013 3:10:13 PM , Rating: 2
Good to know the N10 is available that cheaply. But N10 is slow with underpowered GPU for its screen res. The SoC and the SD card slot are two big reasons I'd prefer RT2 over N10 even at $90 more. Now apps, that's another story...


By TheJian on 9/23/2013 11:07:59 PM , Rating: 2
Tegra 4 is running in a xiaomi phone coming shortly (Hugo Barra from Google now works there...hmmm). Not sure what you mean by saying they are hot. That would not be possible at 1.8ghz in a phone correct?...LOL. Shield is comfortable in your hands for hours at 1.9ghz and other than toshiba's build quality on their write device, I see no issues at Asus, HP etc. I've seen mi3 score 29000+, which is reasonable considering shield scores 41K in Antutu and the ref tablet 1.9ghz scored 36k (just above S800 scores I've seen). They have another month to optimize also.

Also it is FASTER than S800 in CPU, you can debate the gpu depending on the job being done (can't wait to see them head to head in actual games). But the CPU side is owned by A15's.

Links showing S800 scores better than T4 in cpu. Since xiaomi mi3 is coming with BOTH chips T4 and S800 shortly this will be put to rest soon. I don't see any qualcomm optimized games or a website like tegrazone dedicated to gaming either. So you can glbench etc all you want, but I'll take the chip that is made by a company dedicated to gaming for 20yrs and showing they're planning to do the same to mobile. The number of optimized games specifically with tegra features is growing. Check out the tegrazone site. With kepler mobile coming Q1 they will finally have desktop optimizations floating directly to their socs (game devs know the hardware inside out already for over 2yrs). That will continue for ages. Good luck to QCom now that everyone has modems coming. Modems made them special. Next year GAMES will make you special, and without them you'll start to lose no matter who you are. The same happened to rimm etc. They had Enterprise email which made them special, then everyone got Exchange. Suddenly you're not special and tanking.

Not quite sure why Apple hasn't figured this out and announced a 5Bil gaming plan (like 200x5mil AAA games just for IOS per year for 5yrs...LOL). Torchlights were made for 2mil or so, and games like Witcher 1 & 2 were 7mil each. You could easily avg 5mil or so and pump out 1000 awesome games for IOS (remember apple can spend 5B over 5yrs and just laugh about it even as a total loss which it obviously wouldn't be). I hope NV or google announces something like this soon also (1B or whatever dedicated to android games output to your TV etc for gamepad use). Any of these guys (heck qcom also) can take out consoles by announcing these intentions thus drawing even MORE devs away from planning anything for next gen consoles. They are already running if you look at 2800 devs from GDC 2013 USA/EU.

It's going to happen anyway, but you might as well RUN to consoles deaths full bore ;) If you can keep them from selling 10mil each the first year they're screwed. Apple, Amazon, Google etc all have boxes coming to compete with consoles (all 3 rumored to be higher end) so not sure why there hasn't been a huge game announcement yet to slow up console excitement. Maybe they'll announce all that in Nov a day before Xbox1/ps4 launches...LOL.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By augiem on 9/23/2013 6:38:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
$50 lower than an iPad


Oops, didn't even realize. 16GB ipad is $499, 32 is $599. 32GB Surface 2 is $449. So $150 less than equivalent iPad. Hmm, not too shabby.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By mellomonk on 9/24/2013 12:07:29 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Oops, didn't even realize. 16GB ipad is $499, 32 is $599. 32GB Surface 2 is $449. So $150 less than equivalent iPad. Hmm, not too shabby.


Actually, it is not quite that easy of a comparison. The Win R/T install is north of 10Gb! That is why they do not make a 16Gb version, there wouldn't be much usable space. A 16Gb iPad formats out to around 14 Gb usable after the OS. A 32Gb Surface has roughly 20Gb usable after it's Win RT and default Office install.


By augiem on 9/24/2013 3:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
Valid point. That's why its good they included an SD card slot. Pop a 64GB card in there for $60 and you've got a 80GB+ tablet after the OS for just over $500.


By nafhan on 9/23/2013 1:06:55 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize that there's at least a few people who only take into account the subsidized price (even though this is arguably a bad idea).

Plus, Nexus devices are much less expensive than either unsubsidized Windows phones or Win RT tablets. I just picked up a 2013 N7, and could have added a second one for less the price of a single Surface 2.

The Pro is a very interesting device that I'd probably choose over a MBA if I was picking. I wouldn't say it blows it away, though. They have similar specs and both have features that will be more or less important depending on the intended audience. Also, it's only less if you don't buy the (still not included?) $100+ keyboard cover.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Da W on 9/23/2013 11:55:25 AM , Rating: 2
Hey you cheap bastards. MS wrote down 900M$ charge of unsold inventory and tried to sell its stock at rock bottom prices.

They are selling almost at cost! These things are quality products!


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By fic2 on 9/23/2013 12:10:08 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe us cheap b@stards will wait until they have to write down another $900M and buy one of these for 1/2 price...


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 12:32:29 PM , Rating: 2
"Maybe us cheap b@stards will wait until they have to write down another $900M and buy one of these for 1/2 price.."

Exactly... I'd rather wait 6 months until Surface 2 's poor sales have caused them to sell at rock bottom prices than get a Surface 1 at rock botowm prices today.

Surface 2 is a far better product that no-one wants than Surface 1 is.


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:19:12 PM , Rating: 2
How nice to have the powers of prophecy. What will next weeks Powerball numbers be, please.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By nafhan on 9/23/2013 1:12:33 PM , Rating: 2
If MS wants to succeed here, they need to be competing with Google and Asus NOT Apple.

Also, please explain what this "quality" stuff does for me and why it's worth the $200+ that I'd be spending over a less expensive device.


By Da W on 9/23/2013 2:05:08 PM , Rating: 2
For you? Nothing.
For me? Work. Play. Music. News. Tablet stuff. Pc stuff.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By tayb on 9/23/2013 1:51:31 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
They are selling almost at cost! These things are quality products!


Bullshit. The bill of materials for the Surface 2 is not $450 and for the Surface Pro 2 it is not $799. The fucking keyboard attachment is $129. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the margins on that keyboard aren't insanely high? No way.

The secret to entering a new market and competing is to undercut the competition or have a superior offering at the same price. I can make a case that the Surface 2 is the most superior tablet but it is more expensive than the competition!


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:21:07 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, just like Tesla entered the electric car market by undercutting the Prius.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By StanO360 on 9/23/2013 2:57:10 PM , Rating: 2
COMPLETELY different markets targeted. One is an economy pitch the other a luxury pitch.


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 3:06:34 PM , Rating: 2
I realse it is a different market. But the idea that you HAVE to introduce a new product cheaper is ludicrous. If that were the case, every time a new product came out, it would have to be cheaper than the previous one, until no body made any money.


By tayb on 9/23/2013 4:21:54 PM , Rating: 2
The Yankees are going to miss the playoffs because Star Wars Episode VII is going to be released in 2015.

Oh, I thought we were making stupid comparisons?


By Da W on 9/23/2013 2:34:54 PM , Rating: 2
Accessories?
How much do you pay for Apple accessories?
Don't bash a tablet price based on the price of its accessories.

Sure you can have a dual core 16GB nexus 7 tablet for next to nothing. This ain't a full equiped surface pro.

The docking station is a killer!


By StanO360 on 9/23/2013 2:55:58 PM , Rating: 2
It doesn't matter, it's what the combination of marketing, perception and unique selling features mean to the buyer. MS is not hitting it.

Personally the RT is an excellent laptop-lite. It's more than a tablet, but not a full laptop. Flogging it as a different iPad will not help. Students, salesman, and others that may not need a massive app collection would be well served by it, at least at a sub $400 price with keyboard . . . that's the issue. Why not just buy an Asus touchscreen 12" laptop for $400-$500?

That being said we got an academic RT and my son loves it for school. Much better for that purpose than an iPad.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By othercents on 9/23/2013 11:56:34 AM , Rating: 3
The pricing isn't really a premium price for what you get hardware and design wise. What Microsoft really needs is to have a budget 7" Surface to compete against all the other budget devices, but is that really the market they want?


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Amoro on 9/23/2013 12:43:25 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't much of a price premium but for me there's a price threshold on devices like these and $900 is WAY more than I want to pay for ANY tablet. Even starting at $450 is too much for a device with such limited usage scenarios. I just don't see much of a market for these devices.

What's the point in putting an expensive low voltage Haswell in there when atom would do just fine? Why do they need that much power and performance? I think the silvermont tablets make much more sense.


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
There are plenty of OEMs making cheaper Atom based Windows tablets. I think MS doesn't want to be seen as competing with them.


By Mint on 9/24/2013 9:18:25 AM , Rating: 4
For $900 you're not buying a tablet. You're buying an alternative to a MacBook Air 11, Acer S7, etc and getting tablet convertibility for free (and with the docking station they aim to replace your desktop, too). MS's pricing is right inline with other ultrabooks.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 11:49:33 AM , Rating: 5
If you have a premium product, you charge premium prices. MS is not after the $100 crap market. Especially with the Pro. Where else can you get a Haswell tablet with 8 GB of RAM and 512 GB of storage? This is not a device aimed at people who have no money because they spend their entire day posting "I hate MS" rants all over the internet rather than holding down a job.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Jeffk464 on 9/23/2013 11:52:30 AM , Rating: 2
Tablets were suppose to be for light duty tasks just like smart phones, they shouldn't need a Haswell CPU. If I need laptop functionality I will use my laptop.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 11:56:20 AM , Rating: 5
The Pro is a laptop. And a tablet. Who says tablets have to just be fat phones? If I just wanted to do light duty stuff, I'll use a phone.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Da W on 9/23/2013 12:00:04 PM , Rating: 2
Plus: i caught my 2 years old kid jumping with both feet on my surface pro. Not a scrach to be found, glass is okay, still running like new. Try THAT with a nexus!


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 12:20:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Plus: i caught my 2 years old kid jumping with both feet on my surface pro.


See? Even little kids hate these things!! :)

(for those who are uptight morons, the above was purely for comedic good-natured ribbing)


By fic2 on 9/23/2013 1:52:48 PM , Rating: 2
LOL!


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By FITCamaro on 9/23/2013 12:48:25 PM , Rating: 3
Or you can have a tablet that also is your desktop. Put it into a dock and hook up an external monitor and dual screen it. Then when you want to go, you have all your data and applications right there with you in a still powerful, portable container.


By xti on 9/23/2013 1:48:52 PM , Rating: 2
this x1000. i want a laptop that doesnt weigh 8 lbs or have a crappy resolution...and can reuse all my x86 stuff.

pro is a great idea and they are getting closer to where it needs to be.


By rsmech on 9/23/2013 8:00:24 PM , Rating: 2
The same logic would have left us with phones are just for talking and texting. I'm glad we didn't stop there. Phones will keep improving as should tablets.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 12:15:01 PM , Rating: 2
What's the use of a premium product if nobody knows about it and nobody buys it?

At this point Microsoft needs to just get people INTO the mobile Windows ecosystem.

Especially RT. It's so far behind Android and (pains me to say) iOS as a mobile tablet ecosystem, they have to be on crack with that pricing!

quote:
Especially with the Pro. Where else can you get a Haswell tablet with 8 GB of RAM and 512 GB of storage?


The Pro is a hybrid between a tablet and ultrabook, but the reality is that it's not the best solution for either. It remains to be seen if it even has much of a place in the market.

Of course it could be the best device on Earth, but if you hate Windows 8, which most people seem to, it's not going to matter a whole lot.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 12:59:03 PM , Rating: 2
What is so great about the Android tablet ecosystem? It is mostly crappy phone apps that scale poorly to tablet size. Never mind the fact that many apps are just glorified webpages. Who care if you have a g-mail, youtube, maps, etc app? You can do all of that with the browser. Well, except on iOS, I guess.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 1:33:34 PM , Rating: 2
"What is so great about the Android tablet ecosystem? "

The OS, the apps, and the hardware variety.

"It is mostly crappy phone apps"

Totally untrue

"that scale poorly to tablet size"

Totally untrue

But most importantly, it doesnt have those awful tiles. Fully customizeable to suit any needs, and no irritating UI.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 2:16:51 PM , Rating: 2
I can't even look such stupidity in the face. Does he really believe that stuff?

News flash: Android is king of the tablet OS today. iOS had a stranglehold on the tablet market just a few years ago. Now Android has decimated Apple's iPad, which saw its share erode from 47.2 percent in Q2 2012 to 28.3 percent in Q2 2013! That's a nosedive of epic proportions.

Android has enabled competitive products at a great price. That wouldn't happen if it was as bad as he's trying to claim.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:27:13 PM , Rating: 2
Newsflash, the most successful Android tablet is a fork of Android designed to sell Amazon content. Other than that, Apple is still the king of tablets. Android may be trouncing Apple in phones, but the high end tablet market is still mostly an Apple show.


By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 3:54:33 PM , Rating: 3
Sorry, like the other post with your tablets apps, your info is 1-2 years old.

http://www.tech-thoughts.net/2013/08/tablet-market...


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:29:09 PM , Rating: 1
OK, I admit it has been a while since I used an Android tablet. When I last did, it was a painful experience. Maybe they have come a long way since then. I haven't cared enough to find out.


By retrospooty on 9/23/2013 3:50:42 PM , Rating: 2
They have. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7231/the-nexus-7-201...

And that is just a small cheap one.

Anand Lal Shimpi : "The original Nexus 7 gave us a decent Android experience at a very low cost. This year ASUS and Google raised the bar for sure. The new Nexus 7 is no longer just a decent tablet at a good price, it's an incredible tablet . With this Nexus, it's clear that Google no longer wants to rely on value alone. The 2013 Nexus 7 redefines what you should expect to pay for a truly great tablet. "


By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 5:50:09 PM , Rating: 2
So basically you don't know what you're talking about, but troll on anyway?

Okay glad we cleared that up.


By rsmech on 9/23/2013 8:14:54 PM , Rating: 2
While I personally use Windows 8 desktop, Windows phone, and Windows tablet and personally love them I wouldn't call Android crappy. Not what I'm looking for but not crappy.

Google worked it's market from the bottom end up. MS is trying from the top down. One clearly works better than the other. MS marketing flat sucks. You can only charge more to the masses if you have good marketing. The only other way is be cheap. MS marketing doesn't match their products.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By lifewatcher on 9/23/2013 12:17:55 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps. But tablets live in their own micro-cosmos. Paying much for something that will be obsolete in a year or less is not what many want/can do. People traded some power for mobility, when they started buying more laptops than desktops. They once again did that, when tablets started taking over. Nowadays consumers don't expect desktop performance out of a tablet, thus the eye-popping price for a tablet looks ridiculous to most. If MS is still trying to convince the mass market to buy Pro tablets with geeky "tera" this, "giga" that, the sales will remain the same. There's such thing as "enough" - the right balance between price and performance at the right time. Apple started moving down-market to compete with Android, but somehow MS thinks that $1K is the sweet price spot for a tablet. The history is full of examples of failures, due to being "ahead of the times".


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:32:22 PM , Rating: 2
No, MS doesn't think that 1k is the sweet spot for a tablet. The Pro is an ultrabook, plain and simple. It is very reasonably priced when pitted against devices of the same power. You notice they sell their tablet for less that half the cost of the Pro.


By YearOfTheDingo on 9/23/2013 1:49:06 PM , Rating: 5
If you have a premium product, don't market it like $50 picture frame. How is it that we never see the Surface Pro running useful software like Office? In all the promotion pictures, it's always the thing sitting on an empty table showing the stupid start screen. Is that how Microsoft imagine people will use it?

Worst. Marketing. Ever.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Jeffk464 on 9/23/2013 11:50:12 AM , Rating: 1
eh, give me a nexus 7


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 3:04:09 PM , Rating: 1
I just checked Nexus 7, since I keep hearing about it. $349 for the 32GB LTE version and no memory card slot? How is that such a great bargain?


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By corduroygt on 9/23/2013 12:09:12 PM , Rating: 2
The Pro isn't priced that bad, since it's a ultrabook alternative, and is comparably priced to other ultrabooks with similar specs. However, the RT 2 is crazy expensive for a tablet with no apps.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 12:36:11 PM , Rating: 2
What turns me off about the Pro is I'm buying a PC I cannot upgrade or repair. It's like those disposable all-in-ones.

At least on an Ultrabook/laptop I can upgrade the memory. I can also upgrade to an SSD. It would have been nice if they at least provided a user upgradable mSATA slot for an SSD. Maybe they couldn't due to size constraints, but I doubt they even considered it. Want better internals? Buy a Surface Pro 3.

Also it goes without saying the battery is locked inside the Surface Pro too. Something that was trivially easy to correct on a laptop/ultrabook, is now a major issue with the Surface Pro: a bad or failing battery.

The Pro is a disposable PC. I realize most people don't care though, and that I'm in the minority.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By troysavary on 9/23/2013 2:37:28 PM , Rating: 1
Most Ultrabook cannot be upgraded as well. They trade those features for thin and light. They usually have memory soldered to the mobo rather than using SODIMMS. That is admittedly the biggest flaw of the tablet and ultrabook form factor.

Of course, if you were not being such an Android fan, you'd be able to admit that Android tablets have the exact same drawback.


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By Reclaimer77 on 9/23/2013 3:07:36 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Of course, if you were not being such an Android fan, you'd be able to admit that Android tablets have the exact same drawback.


Where am I not "admitting" that? I was talking about the Surface Pro. PRO! Of course you can't upgrade your tablet! Wtf?

I don't know any $900 Android tablets. Maybe you do?

Jesus man, do you have to bring up Android or Google in every goddamn post?


By troysavary on 9/23/2013 5:13:30 PM , Rating: 2
You don't want to hear me bring up Android, stay the fuck out of posts not about Android. But you have to come into every Apple, Windows, and Blackberry thread bashing each of those OS carrying your Android battle standard. You list so called weaknesses that you completely ignore when the same issue happens in the Android camp. Why do you think so many of your posts end up -1. I apparently am not the only one here who thinks you are an idiot.


By Mint on 9/24/2013 9:27:51 AM , Rating: 2
How many high end ultrabooks have replaceable battery/RAM/SSD? Not the Macbook Air, Acer S7, Asus Zenbook...


RE: Microsoft you cannot charge premium prices!
By FITCamaro on 9/23/2013 12:41:39 PM , Rating: 2
How is $900 premium pricing for a laptop in the form factor that the Surface Pro has? Or $449 premium pricing for a tablet that has more functionality than a similarly priced iPad?


By corduroygt on 9/23/2013 6:44:17 PM , Rating: 2
The$449 RT2 has FAR LESS functionality than an iPad because it's missing all the apps that Apple has. Even simple stuff like dropbox.


By Arsynic on 9/23/2013 1:16:58 PM , Rating: 2
I wasn't aware that the iPad launched at bargain bin prices.


By Roffles on 9/23/2013 3:18:20 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, this obviously isn't a "premium" product because all your friends aren't buying it for you to be a follower. You must be kidding with such a pointless argument on market share vs. price. I guess I'll buy it first and you can follow me.

It's almost as if you read over all the improvements that make it extremely competitive price-wise compared to other haswell tablets/hybrids/ultrabooks on the market.



By crispbp04 on 9/24/2013 8:41:11 AM , Rating: 2
If you are such a financial whiz why are you wasting your time posting on this website?


By p05esto on 9/24/2013 9:23:31 PM , Rating: 2
Why in the world does marketshare mean diddly squat? When I buy something I buy the best product and could care less what the other lame sheep are doing. That's the difference between you and I. Follower vs leader.

Surface is more powerful (by far), usb support, normal file structure, much better keyboard, runs regular Windows software.... I mean is there even a close second? I don't own one simply because for the price I'd rather just have a laptop. I'm not going to do real work on some 12" little screen, screw that. Give me my 17" workstation class laptop any day of the week.... and a real mouse.

But otherwise I would buy a surface, they are tbe best out there, that's for sure.


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