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  (Source: Microsoft)

  (Source: Microsoft)
Microsoft spills the beans on Vista SP1

After months of leaks and speculation, Microsoft is finally ready to talk about Windows Vista Service Pack 1 (SP1). Nick White, a product manager for Microsoft, posted today on the Windows Vista Team Blog that Vista SP1 will be released during the first quarter of 2008.

"We improve the Windows Vista experience by continuing to work closely with software partners to ensure application compatibility," said White. "We likewise align efforts with partners on the hardware side of the business to broaden the range of devices that work with Windows Vista and to constantly improve device driver quality."

"We didn’t design SP1 as a vehicle for releasing new features; however, some existing components do gain enhanced functionality in SP1," White added.

A new beta release of Vista SP1 is scheduled to be made available to a select group of testers during the first half of September. This is in addition to an even smaller pool of testers who have been testing a private beta of Vista SP1.

In keeping with its full disclosure on Vista SP1, Microsoft has posted a white paper on the SP1 beta. The white paper details the improvement that Microsoft has made in application compatibility and driver support as well as improvements to security and reliability.

The white paper also notes that there will be three ways of delivering Vista SP1:  Express, Stand-alone and Slipstream. The Express install will require a 50MB download from the Internet. System-specific updates will then be downloaded from Microsoft’s servers.

The Stand-alone package will be roughly 1GB in size for x86 systems. Customers, however, will be able to deploy SP1 to any Vista installation with the Stand-alone package and it will be compatible with the System Center Configuration Manager 2007 software.

Finally, Slipstream versions of Windows Vista with SP1 included will be made available to Volume Licensing Customers (and later in retail packaging). Microsoft does note, however, that "customers cannot apply SP1 to offline Windows Vista images." This could mean that customers will not able to make their own personal Slipstream copy of Windows Vista SP1 from an existing Windows Vista disc.

Installation of Windows Vista SP1 regardless of which method chosen will require a minimum of 7GB free disk space on x86 machines and 12GB free disk space on x64 machines. Microsoft does state that "most of this space will be reclaimed after installation."

As previously stated, Microsoft is targeting a Q1 2008 release time frame. That could change depending on a variety of factors according to Microsoft. "We’re first and foremost focused on delivering a high-quality release, so we'll determine the exact release date of SP1 after we have reached that quality bar," remarked White.





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1GB
By Dfere on 8/29/2007 12:50:47 PM , Rating: 2
Jee-zus.




RE: 1GB
By 3kliksphilip on 8/29/2007 1:09:59 PM , Rating: 3
I know how you feel. The latest games out have patches larger than their prequels (ie, BF2's 536MB patch- all the stuff is already in the game, isn't it? How on Earth can you have a CD of fixes? I feel sorry for the poor people hired to make the fixes. Can't be that rewarding).

The worst I've seen so far goes to Armed Assault, where you have to download a V1.05 466 MB patch, followed by another to get it up to the most recent 1.08 version- 565 MB extra!

It takes several hours to go from installing to playing the game.

Of course, Vista is an operating system, so the same rules don't apply. Just be pleased that we have Broadband in this day and age.

Any other stupid patches you can think of? X3: Reunion's is fairly hefty too, but at least it removes the Star Force protection system.


RE: 1GB
By swtethan on 8/29/2007 1:28:05 PM , Rating: 2
WoW patches, many of them!


RE: 1GB
By 16nm on 8/29/2007 3:34:57 PM , Rating: 1
Wow indeed. ;)

I just hope one of those enhancements to existing features taking up a good chunk of this 1GB will include adding HD-DVD playback in Media Center. I dread having to go the very buggy route of using Power DVD (and, let's be honest, having to fork out more dinero).


RE: 1GB
By Shawn on 8/30/2007 12:01:24 AM , Rating: 2
HDDVD playback in Media Center would be great. I sold my xbox 360 HD DVD drive and got a Toshiba HD-A2 instead because I couldn't play my movies in Media Center and because PowerDVD sucks.


RE: 1GB
By Christopher1 on 9/3/2007 8:48:21 AM , Rating: 2
It doesn't have HD-DVD playback? I thought it did.


RE: 1GB
By Christopher1 on 9/3/2007 8:51:56 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, World of Warcraft is a big patch offender, but I really can give them a break because they are a MMO-RPG and some problems can come up on different systems and different hardware.

You also have to realize that World of Warcraft when you have an extremely big patch, it is usually adding something like the "Burning Crusade" portion of the game.
Believe me, the initial download for the whole game made my eyes pop out, even though I am on Cable internet. ~2GB's for the initial download. Shocking, but true.


RE: 1GB
By darkpaw on 8/29/2007 1:33:13 PM , Rating: 3
The 1GB version will contain all versions/langagues/etc so that no additional installs are needed. Thats a lot of content that really isn't necessary for most people, but if you're doing a mass deployment its better then the express version.


RE: 1GB
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 1:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, plus it also carries zillions of updated device drivers, only a few dozen of which will get installed on a particular machine.


RE: 1GB
By BMFPitt on 8/29/2007 2:50:27 PM , Rating: 2
Just wanted to apologize for accidentally downrating you. I saw that someone else had and tried to fix it, hit the wrong button...


RE: 1GB
By soydios on 8/29/2007 2:55:57 PM , Rating: 2
fixed


RE: 1GB
By Spivonious on 8/29/2007 5:02:36 PM , Rating: 3
It's funny because once you reply all of your ratings get taken away.


RE: 1GB
By essjae on 8/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: 1GB
By TomZ on 8/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: 1GB
By mechBgon on 8/30/2007 12:51:45 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I think that SP1 will roll up all the updated drivers since the release


For the record, Vista SP1 won't contain new drivers, and actually Microsoft's OS service packs aren't about delivering new drivers in the sense of, say, new drivers for nVidia/Intel/ATI hardware.

MVP, Windows Shell/User


RE: 1GB
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 2:13:52 PM , Rating: 2
You sure about that? The Vista install carries tons of drivers, and Microsoft also talks about the number of supported drivers statistics in their Vista SP1 whitepaper. This seems to contradict your statement.


RE: 1GB
By mechBgon on 8/30/2007 9:41:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You sure about that?


The official FAQ sent to me by my MVP lead includes the specific question of what new drivers are included in Vista SP1. Microsoft's answer to that FAQ is that the service pack doesn't include new drivers.


RE: 1GB
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 9:48:06 PM , Rating: 2
Does that exclude the possibility that SP1 will carry all the new and updated drivers released since the original RTM?

In other words, since these drivers are already available via Windows Update, you could technically say that SP1 isn't releasing new drivers.

But on the other hand, it would be illogical for a Vista+SP1 distribution to carry a set of incomplete, out-of-date drivers. Do you see what I'm getting at?


RE: 1GB
By mechBgon on 8/30/2007 10:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But on the other hand, it would be illogical for a Vista+SP1 distribution to carry a set of incomplete, out-of-date drivers. Do you see what I'm getting at?


Frankly, no I don't. Even if the drivers were updated with SP1, they'd still be out-of-date again within a month or two, because hardware manufacturers continue to improve upon them. If the included drivers are enough to get the OS installed, then the user can go get the latest & greatest drivers, or let Windows Update handle it if they're novices. I don't see it as a big deal one way or the other, but FYI that is the information straight from the horse's mouth.

Support for new classes of hardware and new standards will reportedly be included, as was the case with WinXP SP1 adding USB 2.0 support and recognition for high-capacity HDDs. Those would be meaningful benefits that don't go obsolete as months and years go by. That's what I'd take to the bank regarding SP1 as it relates to hardware, not trivial updates to the included drivers that Vista RTM shipped with.


RE: 1GB
By omnicronx on 8/29/2007 3:14:34 PM , Rating: 1
And you know this how?? Whats the point of slipstream or offline download if it doesn't contain new device drivers. Otherwise the express download would be the only 'real' solution to completely update your computer. Zillions maybe not, but many updated device drivers, probably. I can just see it now, every admin having to pick and choose the needed device driver updates for every hardware configuration they have =P


RE: 1GB
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 7:23:54 PM , Rating: 1
I just came across this statistic: as of July 2007, Vista supports nearly 2.2 million devices. That's a lot of drivers!


RE: 1GB
By leexgx on 8/29/2007 10:02:48 PM , Rating: 2
but whats strange thay do not support some commen devices out of box (freash install no internet active) that work norm on XP (USB network dongles or any old network for that matter that is still commen)

but once you get on line seems to be ok


RE: 1GB
By sprockkets on 8/29/2007 10:12:06 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, Vista support is great, right?

Installed Vista on the Intel mini ITX board, and the sound doesn't work. In fact, you can try downloading it from wherever it does from Microsoft and no, it can't find it. You can force the XP driver on it and it works. There is no documentation from Intel about this or any Vista drivers.

Install it on SuSE 10.2, and it works with no issue. Like all OSs, in this case, it needs a video driver.

Then, audio on the nforce 4 board is castrated. Microsoft feels you no longer need the cd audio input. Thanks, I use that for my tuner card. Vista=Useless Leadtek tuner cards (OK at least on nforce 4). Back to xp.


RE: 1GB
By leexgx on 8/29/2007 10:25:11 PM , Rating: 2
find most stuff ok just any thing thats more then 8 months to 2 years + norm just does not work there are ways of force loading drivers on vista as well (does not allways work tho)

insted of wasting time next time with Fdisk
when installing XP if you Read the screen you see when your at the formatting page there is an labe that says PRESS D for delete partiton works fine for me for the err when XP came out :)


SP1? Maybe they'll sell it now
By encryptkeeper on 8/29/2007 5:47:31 PM , Rating: 1
Our friggin' Microsoft rep claimed Service Pack 1 would be no more than all the updates that Vista has had so far. From the sounds of this article, that's a load of crap. He also told me I shouldn't believe everything I read when I said we'd gotten good word that SP1 was due out late this year or early next year.

I'm gonna check out Ubuntu.




RE: SP1? Maybe they'll sell it now
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 6:03:16 PM , Rating: 2
Considering that SP1 will probably be pushed out through Windows Update, it seems like the rep would be right.

Microsoft isn't going to charge extra for SP1 - you know that.

Have fun with Ubuntu. I'm sure the company you work for will be switching to that soon. Not.


By encryptkeeper on 8/30/2007 9:31:06 AM , Rating: 2
Considering that SP1 will probably be pushed out through Windows Update, it seems like the rep would be right.

I think you misunderstood me. He claimed that by the time SP1 hits, it would be comprised of all the incremental updates you would have gotten through Windows Update anyway. This sounds like SP1 might contain something that will be brand new when it comes out. And yes moron, I know my company isn't even considering switching from Microsoft OS's. I was saying I'm thinking of using it on my home PC.


By encryptkeeper on 8/30/2007 9:31:48 AM , Rating: 2
Considering that SP1 will probably be pushed out through Windows Update, it seems like the rep would be right.

I think you misunderstood me. He claimed that by the time SP1 hits, it would be comprised of all the incremental updates you would have gotten through Windows Update anyway. This sounds like SP1 might contain something that will be brand new when it comes out. And yes moron, I know my company isn't even considering switching from Microsoft OS's. I was saying I'm thinking of using it on my home PC.


By encryptkeeper on 8/30/2007 9:32:39 AM , Rating: 2
Considering that SP1 will probably be pushed out through Windows Update, it seems like the rep would be right.

I think you misunderstood me. He claimed that by the time SP1 hits, it would be comprised of all the incremental updates you would have gotten through Windows Update anyway. This sounds like SP1 might contain something that will be brand new when it comes out. And yes moron, I know my company isn't even considering switching from Microsoft OS's. I was saying I'm thinking of using it on my home PC.


RE: SP1? Maybe they'll sell it now
By encryptkeeper on 8/30/2007 9:33:38 AM , Rating: 2
Considering that SP1 will probably be pushed out through Windows Update, it seems like the rep would be right.

I think you misunderstood me. He claimed that by the time SP1 hits, it would be comprised of all the incremental updates you would have gotten through Windows Update anyway. This sounds like SP1 might contain something that will be brand new when it comes out. And yes moron, I know my company isn't even considering switching from Microsoft OS's. I was saying I'm thinking of using it on my home PC.


RE: SP1? Maybe they'll sell it now
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 9:38:14 AM , Rating: 2
No need to get pissy.


By encryptkeeper on 8/30/2007 9:43:04 AM , Rating: 2
4 posts? How the hell did that happen!


By PrinceGaz on 8/30/2007 10:55:07 AM , Rating: 4
Sorry, didn't quite catch what you said, could you repeat it please? :p


Its huge!
By JasonMick on 8/29/2007 1:04:50 PM , Rating: 3
Windows XP Sevice Packs
Service Pack 1: 137 mb
Service Pack 2: 220 mb
Release Price: $250
Office XP

Windows Vista Service Packs:
Service Pack 1: 1 GB
Release Price: Home Basic $199 Home Premium $239 Ultimate $399

The basic problem of why the release is so huge is probably because there are so many different version of Vista. I have found Microsoft's new strategy of increases the types of Windows versions with each release to be slighty bothersome. If they are going to offer a low price point for the Home Premium, lower than the XP release price, why offer a Home Basic, at an insignificant 16% savings and surely a bigger hassle.

The size might not matter for a desktop with a huge hard drive, but for laptops, this may be inconvenient.

Also, this service pack isn't going to fix Vista's problems. Vista needs better driver support from hardware makers. Currently, a lot of the drivers are very green still when compared to XP. They are functional, true, but their performance is lacking. My brother regualarly complains about this when he is playing games on his Vista notebook. Until they get better, I'm not upgrading.




RE: Its huge!
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 1:16:32 PM , Rating: 3
1. Laptops can have pretty big HDDs now - 160-250GB is pretty commonly offered now. Many 17" models even have the ability to have 2 HDDs.

2. My experience with Vista drivers is not the same as yours. I've got two machines I use a lot, as well as a number of other machines that I take care of, all running Vista. Across all these machines, I can't think of any serious driver problems I've encountered. The only driver problems I've had are the usual ATI CCC-type nuisance bugs.


RE: Its huge!
By Christopher1 on 9/3/2007 8:59:23 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I haven't seen any driver issues myself except when I was trying to update the sound driver on my Vista laptop, and that was Realtek's fault because they uploaded a bum installer on their website, which they admitted.

I haven't had one thing thus far that isn't compatible with my Vista PC. My joystick worked when I plugged it in immediately, automatic after driver install. Same thing for my UPS, worked flawlessly after auto driver install. Printer, ditto.
The problem with Vista and old hardware is that people are expecting them to support hardware that is 5-10 years old. Sorry, but not going to do that! It just isn't worth the time, the businesses and home owners should upgrade after that period of time.


RE: Its huge!
By FITCamaro on 8/29/2007 1:37:51 PM , Rating: 1
I think the bigger problem is the gigantic amount of unpack space needed. 7GB for x86 and 12GB for x64? Thats a ton of unpack space. Some people may not have 7GB free on their laptop. Granted if you don't, you should probably clean some files off your laptop anyway.

Good thing my friend has x64 Ultimate installed on a 500GB hard drive.

And while he had two Nvidia driver hiccups, he's had a rock solid performance with Vista so far. Now how much better it can get, plenty I'm sure. But its working fine and playing games perfectly. Oblivion at 1680x1050 is running just fine with every detail maxed out, Havok threads increased, etc. Granted with a quad core, 4GB of RAM, 2 x 8800 GTS 640MBs, and a 150GB Raptor it better.

He nearly cried seeing WoW running smoothly at max detail since he's been playing off a laptop with integrated graphics for the past 3 years.


RE: Its huge!
By Griswold on 8/29/2007 1:47:52 PM , Rating: 1
Apples and oranges. None of the XP service packs contained all language files for the OS. You downloaded the one that is for your country and that was it.

Vista works entirely different as far as localization goes and thus, the full service pack will contain all necessary files for all localized versions of vista (not to mention that they need to fix alot of localization errors in the depths of the OS...).

I bet that is the main reason why its such a big download in adition to the necessary files needed to serve all vista editions from basic to ultimate.

Solution: go for the express package.


RE: Its huge!
By johnsonx on 8/29/2007 2:54:08 PM , Rating: 2
I really doubt the size of the service pack has much of anything to do with the different versions of Vista. Most of the files are the same for all versions; indeed it's largely the product key that controls the functionality. Yes, of course, Home Premium and Ultimate include the MCE files that the other versions don't have, and Enterprise has some management stuff the others don't have, etc., but the bulk of the OS is the same.

As others have pointed out, it's the language files that make it large. I wonder though if Microsoft couldn't offer single-language versions of the service pack, or perhaps one English-only version and one 'World' version.


Vista is good
By Nik00117 on 8/29/2007 4:10:49 PM , Rating: 1
I was agruing with my comptuer teacher today about Vista. He said its too unstable. And I was like 95% of the stablity issues come from older computers with older hardware that manfuactors haven't written stable drivers for.

A tech guy I know said he loved Vista, AFTER he got used to it.

It took me 3 installs to get used to vista, 2 times I switched and just went back because of issues, not of those issues steming from the OS failure. All out of me. Start menus, etc stuff I simply needed time to adjust too.

Now since i've adjusted I LOVE VISTA. I find it very stable, my only gripe is that MS should of given a issue to install basic drivers like in XP. I want to install my own MOBO, and GPU drivers I do not want to have to uninstall everything to do this.

But I know why M$ didn't do this, some 13 year old kid would do it not knowing what he is doing figuring o I can save 3 gigs for porn now! and then find out he doesn't have a ehternet driver so he can't DL and his porn in the first place.

I have my issues with vista, but with each day that I use it they dissappear. And its all small stuff, nothing major.




RE: Vista is good
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 4:31:28 PM , Rating: 2
You're right, and your computer teacher is wrong - Vista is not unstable at all. It's at least as stable as XP, if not more stable.


RE: Vista is good
By leexgx on 8/29/2007 10:38:32 PM , Rating: 2
vista probly ok once its working but from my standing point its big problem from an support side i even Exclude it from my monthy service contracts (if the job lasts more then 1 hr) its to easy to brake it

i recommand Vista once i can Buy Norton Goback for VIsta (turn off System restore as well once thats installed as that offers an big performace drop on vista when the shaddow system restore service is running)


RE: Vista is good
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 11:05:46 PM , Rating: 2
You probably just don't know what you're doing. :o)

Seriously, I've found Vista to be at least as good as XP, and probably better. It has far more control, better built-in diagnostics, and good backward compatibility.


It's not vista
By xxsk8er101xx on 8/30/2007 12:46:42 PM , Rating: 2
the problem isn't vista at all. Although i have witnessed quirky things that annoy me like the network services shutting off for no reason (work related issue: resolved).

The problem and why vista sucks is the lack of software compatibility. There really isn't a reason to upgrade to vista if what you have now works.




RE: It's not vista
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 2:11:54 PM , Rating: 2
The same line of reason could be used against any OS upgrade, or any software upgrade, or any upgrade of anything ever.

The reality is that nearly all upgrades represent some form of positive change. Of course if you are the type that resists change until absolutely necessary (late adopter), that is fine, but just understand that not everyone is like that.

I personally enjoy some of the new features that Vista has compared with XP, and I'm glad I upgraded my machines to it. Sure, there are some older apps that misbehave, but I just use Vista's built-in hammers (compatibility settings) to beat them into submission. I haven't come across an app yet that I couldn't run in Vista.


RE: It's not vista
By Jkm3141 on 9/4/2007 10:34:30 PM , Rating: 2
Try running Descent 1 or 2 (like original Dos Games). Those are a pain to get working (16 bit, dos based games that are fun as hell). I'm still fighting with those on my vista notebook.


Looks to be a good, typical update.
By therealnickdanger on 8/29/2007 12:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
My favorite updates involves the removal of the hang-time after pressing CTRL+ALT+DEL, the speeding up of file copying, and improved IE7 performance.




RE: Looks to be a good, typical update.
By omnicronx on 8/29/2007 2:54:58 PM , Rating: 1
Or the copying of large or mass amount of files. I almost kicked my machine out the window when i tried to backup my mp3s.


By jtesoro on 8/31/2007 12:43:47 AM , Rating: 2
Just wondering. Is this something that can be addressed by a different file manager or is the problem inherent in the OS?


Wow...
By Locutus465 on 8/29/2007 1:10:42 PM , Rating: 2
Pretty significant changes considering they aren't planing on releasing a host of new functionality with this... I'm wondering what all they needed to do with this....

At least now I know why there have only been 2 ultimate extra's....




RE: Wow...
By Targon on 8/30/2007 7:16:43 AM , Rating: 2
Vista driver support was a bit iffy for many people at launch, and while drivers worked, many were very short on features that the XP drivers had. So, figure that SP1 will have a ton of updates in how the drivers work.

You don't NEED to add new features to make a service pack a good thing as long as there are notable fixes in place. The whole mess where multimedia will cause network slowdowns on some systems for example is a fix that Microsoft hasn't really published yet but is known.

I do feel that Microsoft needs a new distribution method for service packs, since a self extracting file may save on bandwidth, but will also take a lot of extra hard drive space when you need to do an install. For those who download the "full" service pack, it should have an option to make an image that can then be burned to a DVD to eliminate the unpack and then verification process that so many dislike. I also hope that Microsoft will ship DVDs with SP1 on them to save on the bandwidth needed for the download of such a large file.


lol
By smokedturkey on 8/29/2007 2:43:32 PM , Rating: 2
totally unnecessary, I have x64 ultimate and zero issues. the updates are for the most part sufficient, and harware has their own drivers, no need for them to be included in an OS. 1GB? BS
I will say this again, Vista runs smoothly and is probably MS's best OS to date, although it's still behind Linux. This SP1 would be great if they REMOVED certain features instead of adding them in and trying to "fix" things that aren't broken. I took out worthless services and Superfetch, which really serves no purpose but to hogg resources.




RE: lol
By omnicronx on 8/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: lol
By leexgx on 8/29/2007 10:30:27 PM , Rating: 2
SuperFetch is not the same as prefetch in XP as on VIsta its allways looking at what you are doing and works out what programs you use the most and Fills the cache up acording to what you are doing prefetch i think has Limited preloading of the Exe only (not sure on that one)

thay need to fix networking and fix game stuttering


Slipstream will happen
By 13Gigatons on 8/29/2007 10:21:39 PM , Rating: 2
I bet someone will figure a way to slipstream SP1, once it gets released it will happen.

How could Microsoft really prevent this ?




RE: Slipstream will happen
By Shawn on 8/30/2007 12:14:57 AM , Rating: 2
the easiest solution will be to just download the entire sp1 ISO off a torrent site. then just use your product key. Microsoft won't know the difference and you'll still be legit.


sp
By roastmules on 8/29/2007 12:49:08 PM , Rating: 2
I think that MS should do an SP for each OS annually.




Vista does not hate you...
By OPR8R on 8/29/2007 5:41:48 PM , Rating: 1
IMO, the great Vista debacle has been blown way out of proportion. Most of the bashing I hear/read comes from people who haven't even tried Vista but are afraid to because of this, that, or the other thing. I've been running Vista 64 for a couple of months now. I had to upgrade my MX700 mouse and had some driver issues w/my Audigy4 Pro soundcard, but other than that, Vista has behaved the way I would expect a newish OS to behave. Overall, I like Vista and really don't like it when I have to boot into XP. I kinda just think bashing Vista is just in fashion.




RE: Vista does not hate you...
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 5:48:18 PM , Rating: 1
I agree, and I also think that a lot of people simply don't like change.


nice!
By Chiisuchianu on 8/29/2007 8:46:04 PM , Rating: 2
Vista is already pretty amazing. I am really excited to hear about SP1, performance enhancements, etc. Vista x64 is freakin sweet.




No Slipstream...
By Boobless Minotaur on 8/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: No Slipstream...
By Tom Milhauz on 8/29/2007 2:20:56 PM , Rating: 2
Like today I started SonicStage (software for sony walkmans) and couldn't get it open because my music collection wasn't verified by their server...when you're offline, you're dead these days


RE: No Slipstream...
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 2:23:23 PM , Rating: 2
SonicStage, and its functionality that "verfies" your MP3 files, is the reason I avoid Sony's PMP devices. I like some of their hardware, but I will not be forced to use their invasive, buggy software.


RE: No Slipstream...
By SiliconAddict on 8/29/2007 7:58:07 PM , Rating: 2
They damn well better support slipstreaming or I'm going on a shooting spree in Redmond. >:-(


RE: No Slipstream...
By peternelson on 8/30/2007 2:10:53 AM , Rating: 2
Shooting spree?

We share your understandable frustrations,

but maybe rather than taking a gun with live ammo,

you need one of these non-lethal pepper spray devices.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8617


Vista has gone Gold
By ZimZum on 8/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: Vista has gone Gold
By Master Kenobi on 8/29/2007 1:37:02 PM , Rating: 5
Lame. Vista was out of beta on January 28th 2007. Anyone saying otherwise is spreading FUD. The Vista launch was smoother than the XP launch. It seems many people seem to forget just how many problems we had with drivers and software when XP was first released. It's an OS thing, get over it. Stop bashing Microsoft for something completely outside of their control. If you want to smack talk about problems, talk to the driver makers. Tts not like Vista was a surprise, RC1 was available a YEAR in advance of the launch and was publically tested by several million users in an open any hardware configuration. If drivers are "green" or "lacking" its because the manufacturers are lazy and lack even traces of foresight.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By Griswold on 8/29/2007 1:57:24 PM , Rating: 5
Amen. I installed vista exactly once so far, in the first week of february and the same install works to this day - flawlessly. Thats something XP never did for me on a first install... :/

I consider vista overall more robust than XP was back in the day. Even XP SP2 gave me more trouble than vista on the same hardware, 2 years ago.

For 9 out of 10 issues I can blame a hardware vendor and its lacking driver quality - above all: nvidia.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By BitJunkie on 8/29/2007 2:28:29 PM , Rating: 3
I have 3 Installations of Vista under my belt:

1) Upgraded a HP laptop from XP Home to Vista Ultimate 32 Bit.
2) Installed Vista Ultimate 64 bit on a new build cutting edge C2D system
3) Installed Vista Home Premium 32 bit on a knackered old Athlon X2 system.

I can honestly say I haven't had a major problem with any of those installs. The biggest problem I've had has been with Creative's drivers for 64 bit (which are now pretty much okay). Oh, and nVidia's lack of decent SLI support early on...which now is kind of functional if not optimised completely.

As for Vista, I love it. Not a fanboi - just call it how I see it. It's easy to use and I love the new UI in Office 2007 - as a power user of Word and Excel the streamlining of the new ribbons is a great help and a joy to use. The account control is better than Linux based systems where you have to constantly "su" to elevate.

It's just the funky thing to do - hating on Microsoft, but pretty soon people are going to realise what a good effort they actually made. My company is upgrading to Vista en masse in the next 6 months, lots of excited people.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By jeromekwok on 8/29/2007 9:38:33 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think we had too much trouble with XP. Almost every piece of hardware works in 2000 also works in XP with the same driver. It is pretty smooth if you upgrade to XP from 2000. Of course more troubles for guys from 98 or ME.

If you say Vista was smoother than 2000 I would agree.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By JB1592 on 8/29/2007 10:29:11 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Almost every piece of hardware works in 2000 also works in XP with the same driver


While that may be true, it should also be noted that a lot of vendors never bothered with Windows 2000 drivers because it wasn't a "home" operating system. For example, ATI never had decent drivers for 2000. I had a Rage 128 that couldn't even scroll graphics heavy websites smoothly under Win2k.

It would appear though that some vendors learned their lesson from that, while others have turned in the opposite direction. I've heard from a lot of people that ATI's drivers are better in Vista than nVidia's. That's a complete turnaround from the times when ATI's 2000 drivers were HORRENDOUS and nVidia's were quite good.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By Master Kenobi on 8/30/2007 7:10:51 AM , Rating: 3
Indeed, the most common upgrade was 98(SE)/ME to XP. I saw very few home users on 2000 since it was never never widely sold to home users.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By leexgx on 8/29/2007 10:21:05 PM , Rating: 1
the reson it was most likey not smooth was due to hardware problems as XP did show problems that norm did not popup offen in win98

been useing XP before day one :) aprt from my old dos games every thing els worked fine,

Vista is just not an gameing platform at this time for norm home use seems fine as long as you do not get get UAC click Allow/Continue to drop mallware onto the pc and make it not able to boot any more or get explorer stuck in an crash and restart loop, allso Networking in vista is an compleat hit an miss game when it does not work give No feedback on what the problem is

found an exploit that could be used on vista useing UAC it self and all it needs it needs to do is crash explorer once and start it up in Full UAC mode
open task man > end task explorer.exe Up task man to Full admin mode (click show all users) start explorer.exe all programs will have full UAC bypass now


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By Master Kenobi on 8/30/2007 7:09:34 AM , Rating: 4
Vista is a fine gaming platform, as good or better than XP. I'm again quite fed up with the amount of FUD that is being generated over this. There is NOTHING wrong with gaming on Vista, nothing at all.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By InsidiousAngel on 8/30/2007 7:40:33 AM , Rating: 2
I will have to agree with you to a point on this. Vista is fine for gaming, just not great. This goes back to green device drivers, most notably video drivers. Most of the issues seem to revolve around the 8800 series of Nvidia cards, which I have. Up until one of the more recent driver releases (162.18 if memory serves me correctly), when I run 2 monitors in dual view mode and try launching a game, the end result would be the infamous nvlddmkm crash.

I won’t even touch the X-FI/Alchemy/Vista Audio stack situation. Note I didn’t say issue as, like stated above, vendors had plenty of time to get solutions for Vista in place.

So to say there is nothing wrong with gaming on Vista isn't a totally true statement. Some configurations have no issues, others do. Not to sound like I’m attacking anyone, that’s not my intent, but just because you are having no issues doesn’t mean the rest of the world isn’t either. Just my 2 cents. =)


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By Master Kenobi on 8/30/2007 7:59:50 AM , Rating: 3
I'm swapping my X1900XTX card for an 8800GTX today in fact. I will let you know how that rolls. But yes I am aware there was a long string of problems with nVidia's drivers at launch and most of the problems werent resolved until something like June/July timeframe. I won't get into SLI as I'm aware that still has problems, but then again SLI has problems of one sort or another on every OS. I had a problem running OpenGL apps under the ATI driver when using 2 screens. Kept having to switch back to 1 screen to make it work, this was resolved back in May. DirectX games seem to be ok though, with the exception of some poor drivers, if the game works without crashing it seems to play just as good as on XP.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By InsidiousAngel on 8/30/2007 9:34:52 AM , Rating: 2
That's the same upgrade I did earlier this year. I think you will be pleased.

Yeah SLI has issues no matter what OS, I completely agree there. The only major issue I have come across in my testing at work has been a system resource crash when copying large quantities of files.

For the record, I have to agree with you regarding the Vista launch was smoother. I remember all the complaining about WinXP runs games xx% slower than 98(SE) and poor print drivers, poor audio drivers, etc. As I tell everyone I work with and game with, just like WinXP, give Vista a year to mature and things will turn around.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By BitJunkie on 8/30/2007 2:28:31 PM , Rating: 2
The FUD is an interesting phenomenon RE: Vista. I remember back to the launch of XP and lots of my friends were jumping all over it - they were proper early adopters and happy to embrace the whole experience as such (warts and all).

Vista is different - Could it be a backlash from the "enthusiasts" who hate being forced to pay for the software due to enhanced anti-piracy systems? Do they seize on the newest irrational and unfounded reasons to hate vista to justify their lack of early adoption (which is atypical for the entusiast community). The opinions of the vocal minority are amplified and perpetuated by enthusiasts on various fora that are also visited by the media - and so this becomes the entrenched position.

Eitherway, everyone I know who upgraded to Vista had a good experience and is happy with the outcome - the OS presents a much happier and more comfortable environment to ustilise on a daily basis....but this is at odds to the vocal "enthusiasts" who are shaping "opinion".

The irony is that these "enthusiasts" may not have even tried the OS but are happy to flame it's reputation none-the-less. Has the "enthusiast" community grown to become an ultra-conservative, stagnant and lethargic group that now fails to push, pursue and question in their former position at the vanguard of technological innovation? Is The vocal enthusiast no longer hunting for the next S-Curve, but busy chasing benchmarks. If so, then who is it that's first on the curve these days? Do we need to hunt them out and give them a new name, and relegate the enthusiast community to benchmark obsessed irrelevants?

It's certainly makes an interesting case study in the diffusion of innovations.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 2:47:26 PM , Rating: 1
I agree, and I would add that today, more than there was with the XP release, there are probably far more Linux (and maybe OS X) advocates speaking out against Vista. You tend to see this with some of the more ill-informed posts that critize Vista for something that doesn't make sense, then go on to say they're going to load up some distribution of Linux. It is my opinion that these are people who are already running Linux just taking cheap shots at Vista.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying all Linux advocates are doing this, just that there is a larger vocal group now compared to XP's release.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By thestereotype on 8/30/2007 11:12:20 PM , Rating: 2
Except no SLI yet.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By Master Kenobi on 8/31/2007 7:53:01 AM , Rating: 2
SLI is a joke. Besides, I have 2 monitors, I couldn't SLI if I wanted to. SLI was one of the dumbest ideas to grace the computer world, the amount of raw power and heat displacement of a modern graphics card is insane.. And you want 2 or even 4?!?..... I will stick with my 1 card and 2 monitors kthx.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By BitJunkie on 8/31/2007 9:15:42 AM , Rating: 2
a) I can run Bioshock at max settings and 1920X1200 on a single 8800 GTX (EVGA OC version)
b) The damned thing is HUGE not even sure I could get another in my atx case with all the optical drives in there.

If I get the performance I want with a single card in the gucci surroundings of Vista, why would I use lack of SLI support as an excuse to stay off the curve and be a late adopter?

Im a pioneer and my job is to boldly go where lesser geeks fear to tread because they are shackled by benchmarks...

Vista owns - anyone who states otherwise isn't being objective.


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By codeThug on 9/25/2007 9:06:13 PM , Rating: 1
kenobi- I would petition you to broaden your bashing statement to include the "pro Vista" crowd as well. There seems to be a fair bit of bashing happening on both sides.

I've seen too many posts from people sharing their first impressions and/or installation experience with Vista in a non flaming or bashing manner only to be flamed/bashed for being a MS hater or lacking technical in skills, and subsequently down modded to less than zero.

There are business reasons for not immediately adopting Vista as with earlier versions of Windows and it purely has to do with cost/benefit. Many companies, as well as home users, do not agree with the MS hype that the cost/benefit is enough to make the switch. At least until most of the issues have been vetted.

Please notice that no vitriol has been spewed regarding the product itself so far. You will find however, much dissatisfaction with Microsoft's "jam it down your throat, were cutting you off from XP" attitude towards this most recent release, and that is what (in my opinion) is fueling a good portion of the bash fest. Not the product itself.

Many of us are skeptical by nature and trade and have been burned by the Microsoft hype machine in the past. Indeed MS is not the only company to do this. Many IT professionals have foamed at the mouth due to similar experiences from IBM, SUN, and DEC.

*i'm missing the fun days of amd vs intel and CRAMITPAL


RE: Vista has gone Gold
By homerdog on 8/29/2007 8:44:20 PM , Rating: 2
That was so funny I almost forgot that I installed Vista three months ago and haven't had a single OS related issue since!


Good luck with that one M$
By Golgatha on 8/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: Good luck with that one M$
By FITCamaro on 8/29/2007 1:31:30 PM , Rating: 1
Uh...the public doesn't have 10s or hundreds of machines to update?


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By ATC on 8/29/2007 2:36:51 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
customers cannot apply SP1 to offline Windows Vista images

What does that mean exactly? Will I be able to download SP1 and save it to disc for later installations, or will we all have to (re-)download it every time we clean install the OS? This sounded more in line with strictly preventing SP1 from being slipstreamed by customers, am I right?

I never slipstreamed SP2 (XP) into the install disc but I sure appreciated having SP2 on disc for offline installation after a clean OS install.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By Master Kenobi on 8/29/2007 2:43:40 PM , Rating: 3
What you are trying to do with it is fine. It will still work.

"Slip Stream" was basically you would install the SP1 files onto the original installation DVD for Windows, so that when it installed fresh off the CD it would be at SP1 or SP2 already with no need for post-installation patching. It was doable with XP and handy, but its not that big of a deal to have the service packs on disk in their own folder for a post-installation patch.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By ATC on 8/29/2007 2:52:53 PM , Rating: 2
I see. I'm glad it will be that way.

Slipstream would be nice but not a big deal. Having SP1 saved on disc for offline installation is a big deal for me though.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By 1078feba on 8/29/2007 5:23:04 PM , Rating: 2
Don't want to appear dense, but if you don't ask, you never find out:

IIUYC, one cannot use an app like vLite to slipstream SP1 into a single home-made Vista install disc using your purchased copy of Vista as your starting point, correct? One can, however, download SP1 and burn it to a separate disc, then just run it after doing a clean install using the purchased Vista disc?

If this is correct, then I have a bit of an issue: I purchased a Dell back when I both didn't know anything about computers other than they fascinated me and XP had just come out (approx 5-6 years ago). It had XP Home preinstalled. SP1 came out, downloaded and installed it. SP 2 came out, downloaded and installed it, both via WinUpdate. Tried to do a clean reinstall one day only to have it tell me that I was trying to install an OS that was a previous "version" of the one I was running. Never found a way around it, comp was out-dated, built my own and bought/installed Xp Pro w/SP 2.

Is/was there a work around, or can we all with purchased Vista discs w/out any SPs look forward to this happening again?

Thanks for any light you all can shine my way...


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By DesertCat on 8/29/2007 5:33:51 PM , Rating: 2
You just needed to take another step to truly wipe out the hard drive. The most typical approach is to use Fdisk on a 3.5" floppy to wipe out any secondary partitions, then the primary partition. After that, a person can run the WinXP install CD, it will detect a totally unformatted hard drive and give you the option to partition & format it. After that the install proceeds normally.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/255867


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 5:47:07 PM , Rating: 2
To add to that, you can easily delete partitions from within Vista setup without having to go through these extra steps.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By DesertCat on 8/29/2007 7:27:10 PM , Rating: 2
Oooh, that's good to know about nuking partitions in the Vista install. With many machines not being shipped with a floppy drive these days, options like that are needed. A person could have a bootable USB flash drive with fdisk as well, but being able to do it inside the install is by far the most straightforward approach.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By leexgx on 8/29/2007 10:08:20 PM , Rating: 2
whats an 3.5 floppy :)

i guess you stuck in the old days of Ms-dos you do know all NT based windows (NT4 and newer) has an option to remove partitions and format as well

sounds like you do not know how to set you pc to boot from cd-rom with out haveing to delete the partition


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By DesertCat on 8/29/2007 11:07:23 PM , Rating: 2
No that's not it. I know how to change the boot order in the BIOS just fine.

It's just that I learned how to nuke partitions back in the Win95/98 days and using a boot disk was the way it was done. It still works fine and, as a result, I never bothered to find other methods for deleting partitions. Seeing as how I only do it once in a blue moon it hasn't been worth my time to see if there was another way of doing it. Maybe it will horrify some that I still do BIOS updates from floppies as well?

The real point of all of this, though, is to explain that the fellow needed to delete partitions, not just reformat his hard drive. It really doesn't matter if it's done from a floppy or a CD. The covenience of doing it from the CD, however, is nice.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By omnicronx on 8/29/2007 2:43:49 PM , Rating: 1
It probably is, via MSDN subscription, for those really have 10+ systems to update.

Do you really think MS is going to release a downloadable slipstream copy for everyone to download? Just waiting for a release group to crack it. Just imagine if MS provided the ISO and all you had to do is crack it after installation, its laughable.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By ATWindsor on 8/30/2007 1:36:19 AM , Rating: 2
Do you really think the release groups aren't going to get a copy of that ISO if they want, just ecause it's only released via MSDN? Thats even more laughable.


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By peternelson on 8/29/2007 9:52:31 PM , Rating: 2
One of the features in Vista that was in the Beta but dropped for the release version was the ability to boot from the more modern EFI bios system rather than legacy bios.

I understand that EFI booting has been put back into SP1, which is good.

But if I can't download SP1 and create a slipstream disk of Vista with SP1, how on earth can I use it to EFI boot from to do an install that boots that way????

Oh wait I get it: wait for the retail version disks with SP1 on them.

Thinks: Hmmmm SP1 launch if on time....Q1/2008, with disks later..... likely Q2.....

I thought I'd be able to get this before the Christmas holidays season of THIS year. A lot of systems will ship then and it will just add to the installed base of SP0 users.

I can't see why they can't allow people to create their own slipstream disks, or for that matter charge me shipping to get an official disk in the mail.


By Master Kenobi on 8/30/2007 7:17:26 AM , Rating: 2
I will look into this once the SP1 is released. I'm betting there will be a way to slipstream it, just won't be public knowledge this time.


By elpresidente2075 on 9/5/2007 3:02:53 AM , Rating: 2
A more pertinent question would be why did you buy a Mac for a Vista installation?

Kidding aside, the EFI bios is much better than the legacy bios implemented in nearly every PC in the last 15 years, and with support from Microsoft, we may even begin to see penetration into the consumer market in a big way.

Sorry you gotta hang on to OSX for just a little while longer, though. <shudders at the stereotypical thought of a one-button mouse and a user friendly UI>


RE: Good luck with that one M$
By mechBgon on 8/30/2007 1:05:59 AM , Rating: 2
From reading up and down this column, it looks like there are some misconceptions about what an Offline Image is, resulting in misconceptions about home users' ability to slipstream SP1. If you're not in an IT department storing Offline Images on a server for remote deployment, then I don't think the Offline Image aspect will affect you. :)

More info: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsvista/aa...

Microsoft MVP, Windows Shell/User


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