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Microsoft is appealing the European Commission's $1.4B USD ruling.
Microsoft is fighting the law, can it win?

The European Union (EU) has not been a fan of Microsoft's business policies.  After alleging that the software giant engaged in price fixing and other anticompetitive processes, the European Commission (EC), the EU's business regulatory body, handed down two massive fines; the first for $690M USD and the second for a record $1.4B USD.  Meanwhile, the EC launched two new investigations seeking more possible damages.

Now Microsoft has announced that it plans to fight the latest $1.4B USD ruling.  Microsoft appealed to the European Court of First Instance in Luxembourg on Friday, in hopes that it can get the fine reduced or dropped.  Microsoft's past battles with EC have been less than successful; it appealed the previous $690M USD fine, only to be denied.

Microsoft spokesman Jesse Verstraete announced the move in an email Friday.  He says that Microsoft's goal is to seek clarity from the courts.

While Microsoft faces a steep uphill battle in getting the ruling appealed, it might not be hopeless.  Philip Marsden, a competition lawyer and senior research fellow at the British Institute of International and Comparative Law, an non-involved party, states, "There's a fairly good record of the court lowering fines the commission has made upon appeal.  It's the company's legal right to appeal such fines, particularly with respect to orders regarding compliance with such a controversial and vague set of requirements."

The trouble for Microsoft started in 2004 when EC delivered an antitrust order to Microsoft.  The order demanded Microsoft provide its competitors' servers the ability to connect to the Windows platform.  In order to facilitate this, it ordered Microsoft to charge reasonable royalties for network connectivity information.

After thorough investigation, the EC found that Microsoft had failed to comply with the ruling last year, bringing the first in a series of fines for the company.  The company was the first in 50 years of EU competition policy to be found in violation of an antitrust ruling.  To date the result has been 1.68B € in fines total ($2.6B USD).

A spokesman for the EC, Jonathan Todd defend the decisions, saying that the courts clear upheld that Microsoft had refused to comply with the ruling for 3 years.  Says Todd, "The commission is confident that the decision to impose the fine is legally sound."

Microsoft has expressed in the past a desire to resolve its legal problems with the EU.  It has said it will comply with the antitrust ruling by further dropping its licensing fees.  Further, it is trying to show support for open document standards, to help defend itself against one of the two current investigation by the EC, which is delving into whether Microsoft engaged in anticompetitive behavior in the word processing market.



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I hate the EU!
By 85 on 5/11/2008 12:41:27 AM , Rating: 3
I live in the UK and I support Microsoft on this one. The EU is out of their minds!




RE: I hate the EU!
By jeddragoon on 5/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I hate the EU!
By chick0n on 5/11/2008 1:34:58 AM , Rating: 3
I would like you to create an OS that can support millions of hardware without bugs.

Apple? Kiss my ass, they have serious bugs even with the closed hardware that they have.

Linux? Nowhere close, Support only the most popular ones & still have bugs.

You have no idea what you're talking about, now please shut up for good. Thank you.


RE: I hate the EU!
By MandrakeQ on 5/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I hate the EU!
By lexluthermiester on 5/11/2008 9:57:42 PM , Rating: 1
I am a Linux user and the ONLY issues I have had in resent years involved my beloved X-Fi. Thats it! I've used Fedora, Ubuntu[and Kubuntu], Mandriva and Xandros. None of them had any issues detecting the hardware I have in my PC. So you want to come again with your statements of buggy Linux drivers? And Vista has a whopping number of hardware/software issues.

I've had BSOD's in XP and BlackSOD in Vista, but only Linux crashes gracefully. The 3 or 4 time Linux crashed on me, it did so allowing me to restart without corrupting data.


RE: I hate the EU!
By MandrakeQ on 5/11/2008 11:24:05 PM , Rating: 2
I've had problems in the past with Broadcom wireless cards, ATI graphics cards, random ass soundcards, TV Tuner cards, and 5 in 1 memory card readers. I've also had problems with RAID drivers.

The new distros like Ubuntu and Mandriva have done an excellent job fixing these old hardware compatibility issues, but I know there is still plenty of hardware out there that has little to no support. For instance, try getting the new Mac touchpads to work like they do in OS X.


RE: I hate the EU!
By lexluthermiester on 5/11/08, Rating: 0
RE: I hate the EU!
By DeathSniper on 5/12/2008 11:14:05 AM , Rating: 4
You might want to first learn how to read and comprehend a sentence before lashing out at someone. The poster never stated that Windows was bug-free; instead they were merely implying that someone try and create a bug-free OS and then start bashing Microsoft over Windows.


RE: I hate the EU!
By daftrok on 5/11/2008 1:51:33 AM , Rating: 2
Though I fully agree that Vista was a misstep and they should have just focused on Windows 7 (we can survive with XP until 2010), and I agree its overpriced, but this issue has nothing to do with how buggy Vista is.

The EU wants Microsoft to "hand over documentation to its competitors detailing the inner workings of its software applications". Um...what? Are you kidding me? That's like asking Coca-Cola to divulge the detailed ingredients of its soda. That's like the military telling other competing militaries how their hardware and software works for their weaponry. Its absolutely idiotic that the EU would have the gall to ask something like this. I hope that Microsoft wins this and in turn gets money from EU for pulling an idiotic stunt like this.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Anosh on 5/11/2008 1:28:54 PM , Rating: 2
What are you talking about?!!

The article clearly states:
quote:
The order demanded Microsoft provide its competitors' servers the ability to connect to the Windows platform.


There is not mention of the things you're babbling about.


RE: I hate the EU!
RE: I hate the EU!
By Ish718 on 5/11/2008 2:57:46 PM , Rating: 4
I'm using Vista ultimate right now with service pack 1, I have no problems at all. Everything runs smooth and I mostly game by the way...


RE: I hate the EU!
By daftrok on 5/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I hate the EU!
By Ish718 on 5/11/2008 3:49:41 PM , Rating: 3
Thnx, just to point out that vista is not complete crap like people always say it is...


RE: I hate the EU!
By lexluthermiester on 5/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I hate the EU!
By PrinceGaz on 5/11/2008 5:59:49 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sticking with XP as well until Win7 is released- and then probably wait until Win7 SP1 as Win7 will no doubt have lots of bugs at first.

I haven't used Vista myself but I know from personal experience (reading anti-Vista posts by other people who mostly haven't used it either) that Vista is bloated buggy rubbish. I might install a copy to run 3DMark Vantage and waych some DX10 demos, but that's it. Unless MSTS 2 requires it when it is released in 2009, I suppose.


RE: I hate the EU!
By exanimas on 5/11/2008 6:34:33 PM , Rating: 1
Is your post supposed to be sarcastic?

>>"I haven't used Vista myself but I know from personal experience (reading anti-Vista posts by other people who mostly haven't used it either) that Vista is bloated buggy rubbish."

You just stated you've never used it and most of the anti-Vista crowd hasn't given it much of a chance. I find that at least half of the people that hate Vista hate it because of their own lack of computer knowledge. For instance, the people who don't know they need to download a patch for whatever obscure program their using to make it compatible with Vista.

I'm not saying there is no legitimate complaints about Vista, because there are definitely many. I just find that most of the posts about how "Z0MG VISTA IS TEH SUXX" are by people who I wouldn't consider a source of information on computers.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Captain Orgazmo on 5/11/2008 12:57:13 AM , Rating: 2
The EU courts are controlled by anti-capitalist relics, who wish only to punish successful businesses like Microsoft and Intel with these ridiculous fines. Who benefits from such a fine, and further, who would get their hands on that huge amount of cash if the fine were to be payed out?


RE: I hate the EU!
By dever on 5/12/2008 4:25:31 PM , Rating: 3
Exactly the point...

Who does this benefit? Not the consumers. And certainly not EU consumers.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 5/11/2008 12:59:51 AM , Rating: 3
The UK has gone out of its way to remain distinguished outside of the EU (Currency, policies, economics, etc...) so I don't find it the least bit odd that people in the UK have problems with a ruling made by the EU.

Theres the EU, then theres the UK. The UK might be a member nation of the EU, but talk to anyone over in the UK and call them a Euro and expect dirty looks or a good scuffle. Seems to be no love lost between the UK and the EU.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Ringold on 5/11/2008 2:40:05 AM , Rating: 2
I'm a few weeks behind on my news from the UK, but I bet their Parliament ends up passing the most recent constitution/'treaty'. It was promised the people would be allowed to vote on it directly, but it's been pretty clear the people would vote it down, so, as is typical with anything dealing with the EU, the government will probably do what it thinks is best for the people, the opinion of the people be damned.

Like I said, behind by a few weeks, for all I know the Parliament voted it down yesterday in a shocking reversal, but I doubt it. Prepare to see increasing amounts of sovereignty transferred to Brussels, until one day the cycle is complete and the British Prime Minister has no more authority than an American State Governor does (which isn't much).


RE: I hate the EU!
By spluurfg on 5/11/2008 4:40:25 AM , Rating: 3
to see increasing amounts of sovereignty transferred to Brussels, until one day the cycle is complete and the British Prime Minister has no more authority than an American State Governor does (which isn't much).

I think that's fairly unlikely... they already won some pretty strong concessions opting out of parts of the EU treaty.

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystor...
quote:
Prepare


RE: I hate the EU!
By Clauzii on 5/11/2008 8:43:07 AM , Rating: 3
RE: I hate the EU!
By T4RTER S4UCE on 5/11/2008 4:03:53 PM , Rating: 2
Something wrong with this post?


RE: I hate the EU!
By lexluthermiester on 5/11/2008 5:05:38 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps he forgot he needed to use the keyboard?


RE: I hate the EU!
By Hare on 5/11/2008 5:09:53 PM , Rating: 2
There was something wrong with the comment system. As you can see his name is in italics. Before his message was erased it caused every other message to also be in italics. Bug...


RE: I hate the EU!
By Clauzii on 5/13/2008 10:50:06 AM , Rating: 2
It was splurffg (just before my post) that forgot an italics-off. No erased posts this time ;)


RE: I hate the EU!
By Clauzii on 5/13/2008 10:44:15 AM , Rating: 2
No, my keyboard is fine. I inserted some spaces and an "italics-off" to get rid of the "italics are on for the rest of the posts problem" :))


RE: I hate the EU!
By comc49 on 5/11/2008 6:46:11 PM , Rating: 1
RE: I hate the EU!
By spluurfg on 5/12/2008 4:02:41 AM , Rating: 2
Oops, post error. Meant to post:

quote:
Prepare to see increasing amounts of sovereignty transferred to Brussels, until one day the cycle is complete and the British Prime Minister has no more authority than an American State Governor does (which isn't much).


I think that's fairly unlikely... they already won some pretty strong concessions opting out of parts of the EU treaty.

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystor...


RE: I hate the EU!
By Ringold on 5/12/2008 2:11:28 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, and as the Economist notes (I'm a subscriber too, bud), they're insane if they think those concessions will amount to more than a hill of beans. The carve-outs are resented in mainland Europe, and they're not expected to survive if the rest of the EU ever became offended enough to lean hard on the UK.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Clauzii on 5/13/2008 10:53:00 AM , Rating: 2
Heh, I thought Your "prepare" was pretty nice :)


RE: I hate the EU!
By spluurfg on 5/14/2008 7:09:54 AM , Rating: 2
Haha yeah, I got a +1 for it too!


RE: I hate the EU!
By lexluthermiester on 5/11/2008 2:30:20 AM , Rating: 2
And how is the E.U. out of there minds? The E.U. gave Microsoft a ruling and expected them to obey. They refused and were fined as a result. The E.U. further instructed Microsoft how they may conduct themselves and issued a ruling on the matter, as well as informing them that they have a time limit to comply. Microsoft continued their defiance and the E.U. as much as told them to comply and pay the fines or face severe consequences. Then Microsoft agreed to comply with the original ruling, but has yet to pay the fines. They somehow think they are above the law. They are not. And unlike in the USA, they are not going to be able buy/weasel their way out of it. This is something the United States needs to take an example from... I hope the E.U. increases the fines further for Microsoft being so flippantly defiant.

I fail to understand why everyone seems to be on the side of Microsoft. Microsoft is clearly in the wrong and is no ones friend but their own. They care only about money and getting more of it. They have no regard for their client/customer[experience speaking] base. Wake up people!

Let the fanboy down rating commence...


RE: I hate the EU!
By Ringold on 5/11/2008 3:14:12 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
I fail to understand why everyone seems to be on the side of Microsoft.


For me, it goes to the heart of the matter.

The conditions necessary for most people to recognize an entity as a monopoly:

1. High barriers to entry
2. No substitutes
3. Pricing Power
4. Exclusive access to an essential resource

1: Programmers in their mothers basement spin their own linux distro's every day. Zero barriers to entry.

2: A billion flavors of linux, Mac OSX, both deemed as not just potential substitutes but vastly superior by their fans.

3: True, MS controls the price of its OS and can probably thus influence the price of the entire OS market; hard to tell, though, since Vista Home Premium seems to me to be cheaper over its lifetime than OSX. Hard to compare to linux as well, given that its price is zero (assuming time has no value).

4: MS provides a good/service that isn't a commodity, which puts it in to monopolistic competition by default, but MS has no patented technology nor government mandate that allows MS and MS alone to supply operating systems.

It almost completely fails the monopolist test. It would completely fail it if not for what is probably a negatively sloping marginal cost curve; in other words, it's more efficient for one or a small number of OS-makers to support a wide variety of hardware than it is for a large number of firms to duplicate efforts. That would make the case for it being a natural monopoly, and its generally not a good idea to try to break those, and fairly useless to even fine them. That's offset in my mind by Apple choosing to restrict OS sales to Mac computers; should MS be punished for market share it has because Apple so chooses to give it to them?

So, did MS flaunt the EU? Yes, no denying it. I just think the EU is barking entirely up the wrong tree, meanwhile, it's energy sector is in dire need of immediate attention. Ignoring MS and going after more critical problems would better serve the greater good, IMHO -- though it wouldn't raise neeaarly as much revenue for the the EU.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Hare on 5/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I hate the EU!
By timmiser on 5/11/2008 6:15:13 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
This fine equals about 8 weeks revenue just from Europe


You might want to learn the difference between 'revenue' and 'profit'. You can't pay a fine with revenue.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Hare on 5/11/2008 6:35:47 AM , Rating: 2
I know the difference. If you want to compare the fine to income, go ahead. Operating income was over 18 billion $. How much of that was from the EU, I don't know...


RE: I hate the EU!
By Calin on 5/11/2008 8:21:28 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, a fine is paid with revenue, not profit.
The idea is that the EU could block the Microsoft accounts and take any money that enter in them to pay the fine. The money that enter there are revenue, not profit


RE: I hate the EU!
By Uncle on 5/11/2008 4:17:06 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You might want to learn the difference between 'revenue' and 'profit'. You can't pay a fine with revenue.

Yes you can, in the USA all fines can be written off of income. One of the major reasons companies don't have respect for the laws. If the people in charge of the companies could be fined personally more often instead of waiting for a Grand Jury Indictment, you would see a quick change in attitude.


RE: I hate the EU!
By sprockkets on 5/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I hate the EU!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/2008 3:38:24 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
And how is the E.U. out of there minds? The E.U. gave Microsoft a ruling and expected them to obey. They refused and were fined as a result. The E.U. further instructed Microsoft how they may conduct themselves and issued a ruling on the matter, as well as informing them that they have a time limit to comply. Microsoft continued their defiance and the E.U. as much as told them to comply and pay the fines or face severe consequences. Then Microsoft agreed to comply with the original ruling, but has yet to pay the fines. They somehow think they are above the law. They are not. And unlike in the USA, they are not going to be able buy/weasel their way out of it. This is something the United States needs to take an example from... I hope the E.U. increases the fines further for Microsoft being so flippantly defiant.


I, for one, respect Microsoft's refusal to negotiate with terroris - err, the " European Union ".

The European Union is corrupt and everyone knows it. The US should take a lesson from that ? No thank you. I don't see the United States filing moronic lawsuits against European companies.


RE: I hate the EU!
By WayneG on 5/11/2008 4:37:16 AM , Rating: 4
I'm from the UK so as you can expect I thoroughly disagree with the ruling against MS, it seems that the EU has found it's cash cow in the shape of MS and is using them to their advantage. I don't see anyone fining them over the fact that they don't divulge information on all of the main leaders (i.e. addresses, phone numbers, email, etc.) but of course it's not okay for MS to not give it's product information to competitors. God what a bunch of **icks!


RE: I hate the EU!
By B3an on 5/11/2008 7:45:49 AM , Rating: 1
Corrupt? I think you're getting the EU confused with your own country where people can simply buy themselfs out of trouble.
It's only americans who think the EU is corrupt because they never crawl out of there hole to see for themselfs what other nations are actually like.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/2008 11:54:36 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
It's only americans who think the EU is corrupt because they never crawl out of there hole to see for themselfs what other nations are actually like.


I have no doubt other countries do things different. This, however, does not mean we should follow their lead.

At the risk of sounding patriotic ( god forbid ) I would point out there just might be a reason why America has a huge immigration problem. For some crazy reason a lot more people move in than move out. In fact nobody moves out. Go figure ?

Only Americans ? I see quite a few posts from those in the UK who see the EU for what they are. Your argument reeks of misplaced nationalism and pure anti-capitalist propaganda.

I suggest you crawl out of your own hole and take a trip to Munich Germany and visit the NEVER AGAIN plaque. And think about what road the EU is taking you down.


RE: I hate the EU!
By BZDTemp on 5/11/2008 7:11:32 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I suggest you crawl out of your own hole and take a trip to Munich Germany and visit the NEVER AGAIN plaque. And think about what road the EU is taking you down.


So you are saying the EU is leading the world to another Holocaust? Now that is just stupid on so many levels I don't know where to begin!

- The EU stands on the side of democracy, tolerance, international corporation and is for example a much bigger support of the UN than the US. Perhaps you should look to how the US stands with regards to war crimes were for example the US will not sign up to the ICC due not getting a veto right. Or perhaps you can just google "rendition" or "US war crimes".

- The EU is a lot more critical about Israel than the US and while the Israeli should know better they are actually the ones with camps in this day in age. Them and the US with Guantanamo!

- One of the main goals of the EU is to make sure everyone in Europe has so much benefit from peaceful working together. It a way to guarantee that never again anyone will be able sell the people of a nation the idea that they above all others. It sounds to me like you should perhaps consider that thought yourself!

- Oh and as for the "huge" immigration problem of the US. I think the problem is only really in the minds of red necks! The immigrants, regardless of their origin, actually do a lot of good just like the immigrants we get in the EU. BTW. thousands of people are entering the EU from all over (africa, asie, eastern europe...) and it's a challenge for sure but far from being a huge problem.

It seems to me that an unfortunate big proportion of the people in the US only know of the world from the FOX news telling they are now bombing some country. The US is not a perfect place and neither is anywhere else but if people in the US open up their eyes and ears to other peoples views surely the US would become a better place.

Here is a funny fact. Aprox. 20% of US citizen have a passport while aprox. 80% of people in the EU have one.


RE: I hate the EU!
By rsmech on 5/11/2008 11:47:00 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Here is a funny fact. Aprox. 20% of US citizen have a passport while aprox. 80% of people in the EU have one.


Probably because we don't need a passport to go from California to New York.

quote:
- The EU stands on the side of democracy, tolerance, international corporation and is for example a much bigger support of the UN than the US


This isn't anti-EU but anti-UN. They stand more for tolerance than democracy. If it were not the case wouldn't why are so many intolerant nations members of human rights commissions? What have they done for North Korea, Darfur, China threatening Taiwan, negotiating with OPEC, Muslim extremes, Israel & Palestine, Afghanistan during Taliban rule, Tibet? What is their purpose? How many die while they sit in their ivory towers not wanting to get their hands dirty skimming off the top.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/12/2008 5:53:49 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
What have they done for North Korea, Darfur, China threatening Taiwan, negotiating with OPEC, Muslim extremes, Israel & Palestine, Afghanistan during Taliban rule, Tibet? What is their purpose? How many die while they sit in their ivory towers not wanting to get their hands dirty skimming off the top.


As usual, nothing. They wait until the US and their allies are forced to do something, then condem the actions as being warmongering.

The UN is a big worthless social club for tyrants. I almost wish the United States wasn't associated with such an institution. The size and scope of Un corruption is well documented and available for those who wish to read it.


RE: I hate the EU!
By spluurfg on 5/12/2008 4:00:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The EU stands on the side of democracy, tolerance, international corporation and is for example a much bigger support of the UN than the US


How does one define a "much bigger support"?

If you're talking about financial support, the US provides as much funding to the UN as Germany, the UK, France, and Italy put together...


RE: I hate the EU!
By BZDTemp on 5/12/2008 4:00:36 PM , Rating: 2
Well for one the EU and it's members are not trying to sabotage the work of the UN again and again.

And as for money. It may be the US pays more than UF, France, Germany and Italy put together but that is just 4 of the EU member nations...


RE: I hate the EU!
By niva on 5/12/2008 4:35:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
... else but if people in the US open up their eyes and ears to other peoples views surely the US would become a better place.


Sorry, we're too busy following the daily adventures of Paris Hilton and co.

Back on topic, this is a good business and monopolistic move by MS for the short term. In the long term not complying with the EU and fillibustering the legal system will harm them. The EU is milking MS, MS is being stupid in the first place and with the move to open source and standards it's only a matter of time before MS has to adapt or simply lose business.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/12/2008 5:58:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS is being stupid in the first place and with the move to open source and standards it's only a matter of time before MS has to adapt or simply lose business


IF MS went open source that really WOULD be stupid and they really would lose business.

Just like Apple. If a PC that costs hundreds, and in some cases thousands, less could be installed with a MAC OS they would lose massive money.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/12/2008 5:36:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So you are saying the EU is leading the world to another Holocaust? Now that is just stupid on so many levels I don't know where to begin!


No but it sure looks like typical European tyranny in a new wrapper. You might remember the last time nations in Europe allied themselves, it was called the Axis. Today Microsoft, tomorrow....who knows.

quote:
- One of the main goals of the EU is to make sure everyone in Europe has so much benefit from peaceful working together. It a way to guarantee that never again anyone will be able sell the people of a nation the idea that they above all others. It sounds to me like you should perhaps consider that thought yourself!


Wow.. I don't even know where to begin with this one.

quote:
- Oh and as for the "huge" immigration problem of the US. I think the problem is only really in the minds of red necks! The immigrants, regardless of their origin, actually do a lot of good just like the immigrants we get in the EU. BTW. thousands of people are entering the EU from all over (africa, asie, eastern europe...) and it's a challenge for sure but far from being a huge problem.


Now look, I don't pretend to know what happens in the every day life of a European, so don't pretend you know whats going on over here. We do in fact have a huge illegal immigration issue in this country. Hardcore numbers don't lie, its not in anyones " mind ". You have thousands of people coming in, thats great. We have HUNDREDS of thousands.

quote:
It seems to me that an unfortunate big proportion of the people in the US only know of the world from the FOX news telling they are now bombing some country. The US is not a perfect place and neither is anywhere else but if people in the US open up their eyes and ears to other peoples views surely the US would become a better place.


Again with the nationalism and Anti American comments. And I really resent the idea that something is wrong with us if we don't bend our will and way of thinking to Europe. And thats what you really mean don't you ? If we thought like you, and adopted more opinions like you, we would be better off. I respectfully disagree.

quote:
Here is a funny fact. Aprox. 20% of US citizen have a passport while aprox. 80% of people in the EU have one.


What funny is you don't realize the importance of the numbers your quoting. Thank you for actually making my own argument.


RE: I hate the EU!
By BZDTemp on 5/14/2008 6:58:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No but it sure looks like typical European tyranny in a new wrapper. You might remember the last time nations in Europe allied themselves, it was called the Axis. Today Microsoft, tomorrow....who knows.


Exactly how can a democracy be tyranny. There is not one member state in the EU which is not a democracy and the politicians representing the member states in the EU are also elected democratically elected.

quote:
Now look, I don't pretend to know what happens in the every day life of a European, so don't pretend you know whats going on over here. We do in fact have a huge illegal immigration issue in this country. Hardcore numbers don't lie, its not in anyones " mind ". You have thousands of people coming in, thats great. We have HUNDREDS of thousands.


Well - saying immigration is a major problem while sitting in a country mainly populated by immigrants and their descendants does sound strange to me. Also I think you need to read some studies about what the illegal immigrants actually mean for the US economy. It's the same picture in the EU - the extremists want to close the borders and on the same time we need people to fill the vacant jobs.

Oh, and bring some documentation for your "HUNDREDS of thousands" and I shall do the same. It would not be surprising to see similar numbers if not even bigger numbers over here. After all not many people are swimming the Atlantic while we have the old east-block from North till south.

quote:
Again with the nationalism and Anti American comments. And I really resent the idea that something is wrong with us if we don't bend our will and way of thinking to Europe. And thats what you really mean don't you ? If we thought like you, and adopted more opinions like you, we would be better off. I respectfully disagree.


Please stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying the US should be like the EU and I also think you can hardly call it nationalism since the EU is not a nation :-)

I wrote "The US is not a perfect place and neither is anywhere else..." so if you open your eyes and stop the automatic defense reaction (which some may even call nationalistic) maybe you will get my point. When I write about that only 20% US citizens have a passport and suggest the US people should open it's eyes and ears to other people it is because knowing more about the world would be a good thing.

It may be that you would think we do everything wrong over here or maybe you will find just a few things that make you go "Hmm - maybe we could use this idea if we change it a bit". Whatever the outcome at least you would form opinions about us in an informed way and not just based on an automatic "We are right therefore everyone else must be wrong" way of thinking.

If you in person actually know a lot of the world outside the US then I'm sorry but then I'm sure you can see from some of the many other posts that a lot of people here know very little.


RE: I hate the EU!
By B3an on 5/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: I hate the EU!
By lexluthermiester on 5/11/2008 4:46:12 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Corrupt? I think you're getting the EU confused with your own country where people can simply buy themselfs out of trouble.


Hey, I'm a U.S. citizen. And I don't think the E.U. corrupt. I agree with you about people/corporations being able to buy there way out of trouble here in the U.S., and it angers me greatly.

quote:
It's only americans who think the EU is corrupt because they never crawl out of there hole to see for themselfs what other nations are actually like.


You need to check the posts left by some of the folks in the U.K.. I sense an ample amount of unpleasantness coming from them about the E.U..


RE: I hate the EU!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/12/2008 5:44:00 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I agree with you about people/corporations being able to buy there way out of trouble here in the U.S., and it


The idea that it only happens in the US is a complete fantasy. Don't believe the hype from the EU guys that we're the " great satan " of corruption and they are everything thats pure and lawful in the world. The amount of nationalism over software that this topic has generated is really crazy.


RE: I hate the EU!
By JoeBanana on 5/11/2008 5:32:20 PM , Rating: 2
I think both are doing for then own good and it should be that way. In the end you realize that you have corrupted and good people in every country no matter if it's capitalist, socialist or communist.

I agree with the verdict. MS has a monopoly there is no doubt there. Why did IE survive? Because it's installed with every windows version, not because it was good. But I must admit that it's a decent browser now. MS does things like they want it too not like standards permit. And there lies the problem. If it had serious competition it would had to comply with standards set by international agencies. But now they rather invent a new standard, thats hidden, and embed it into their products.

But it's not their fault this things happen. The fault lies in the government that allows this type of market tricks. In my opinion the fine is appropriate. It includes x% of product that were sold in EU afterall if it was fixed it wouldt have an impact.


RE: I hate the EU!
By Zandros on 5/11/2008 8:39:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The European Union is corrupt and everyone knows it. The US should take a lesson from that ? No thank you. I don't see the United States filing moronic lawsuits against European companies.


What about the EADS/Boeing crap? Anyway, as mentioned elsewhere, the chief complaints are from American companies. Make of it what you will.


RE: I hate the EU!
By FITCamaro on 5/11/2008 12:30:09 PM , Rating: 2
All I'm going to say is I'm happy there are more people with sense that think the fines are bullshit than people who think they're justified.

Microsoft as a corporation who's goal is to make money has no incentive or requirement to open its software to others. Especially not those who would steal it customers. But they have done so quite well. The EU though isn't happy with that. They seem to think Microsoft should just give the complete source code of Windows to competitors. One's that certain politicians here in the states want to duplicate.

Microsoft's APIs are probably some of the best documented in the industry. They have met what the EU has called for and still been fined billions. The EU has no case to impose these fines after all the money and effort Microsoft spent in just complying with their rulings. They only do so to help fund their massive socialist programs.

You can argue that Linux's source code is available, well, that's their choice. Microsoft is not a Linux distro. It is a corporation. It has a responsibility to its employees and shareholders to protect its IP.


RE: I hate the EU!
By kc77 on 5/12/2008 12:26:37 AM , Rating: 1
I have a question to all of the people who are so afraid of government (god forbid) protecting it's citizen's from the nature of monopolies. When has government interaction EVER put a company out of business??? I'm not talking small business I'm talking about companies the size of Microsoft going out of business due to government interaction.

IT'S NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!

So why are you afraid of something that has never happened nor will ever happen versus the many many examples of monopolies price gouging, controlling markets, price fixing, and stagnation of newer technologies? It makes no sense. I'm all about people having opinions about things but at least pick a reasonable candidate to get behind and support. Microsoft?!?!? . So Microsft got fined 1B dollars for breaking the law?? BIG DEAL they make that in 1 quarter.. isnt' that what's suppose to happen? Hell with your thinking I should be able to rob a bank and then claim I was merely exercising my right to make money. Or maybe if I break the speed limit while driving my car i'll only get fined a penny....I'm sure having spent that penny I'll never speed again.

If you break a law you should be prosecuted, which for businesses that means fines. Microsoft does not have to sell it's product in EU territories. If it wants to, then they have to play by their rules otherwise they should take their ball and go home. It's called LIFE!!


RE: I hate the EU!
By FITCamaro on 5/12/2008 7:44:13 AM , Rating: 3
The fines were not over Microsoft breaking the law. It was over the EU saying Microsoft did not comply with a ruling from a previous case. Those of us who think rationally, say they did. Those who only seek to punish companies for being successful say they didn't.

You say big deal, they make $1 billion a quarter. They actually probably make more than that but even if they made a trillion dollars a quarter, that doesn't give a corrupt government the right to steal money with bogus penalties. If I make a million dollars a year, does that mean if you steal $100,000 from me that it should be no big deal because I could afford it?

Microsoft complied with the EU's request in providing documentation to its competitors. They already had plenty of documentation. But other competitors upset about Microsoft doing well keep saying that Microsoft's code has back doors that allow Microsoft's other products to tie into it. And many of us would be far less upset if Microsoft wasn't the only one being sued. Apple's OSX is a far more closed system than Windows ever will be. But they're not getting sued. Why?


RE: I hate the EU!
By kc77 on 5/12/2008 9:17:19 AM , Rating: 1
Um, yeah they were. The penalties came about from Microsoft not releasing documentation on certain technologies in a reasonable fashion. Microsoft was charging outrageous prices in order to allow people to see code. Therefore they were in noncompliance with a court ruling. Now we can talk semantics, but if you rob a bank or disobey a court ruling the outcome will be a punishment of some sort.

How is the EU "stealing"?? They don't own Microsoft's bank account number. Your comparison between Apple and Microsoft from a business stand point is rather "short-sighted". First of all Microsoft is a monopoly, Apple is not. When you are a monopoly whether you're in the U.S or UK/EU different rules apply or more precisely additional rules apply.

And you still haven't answered my question regarding your straw man, when has a government put a company out of business due to interaction in relation to business practices?

Your desire for the Wild Wild West in relation to business practices is astounding. If a company


RE: I hate the EU!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/12/2008 6:06:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple's OSX is a far more closed system than Windows ever will be. But they're not getting sued. Why?


Good question. Its a question thats been asked several times on this thread, and one the pro EU crowd continues to ignore.


RE: I hate the EU!
By SiN on 5/12/2008 8:08:30 PM , Rating: 2
i dont deny apple should be questioned by the EC about its practice. me a pro europian.

in fact if it is ok for apple to do what thay do, why cant MS make a version of windows tailored to a specific hardware? i would like to see such a thing if it weren't for vendor interests and monopoly laws.


RE: I hate the EU!
By SiN on 5/13/2008 7:33:17 AM , Rating: 2
i'd also like to add that programs should not be bundled with a mac OS just as MS is restricted of doing so.


RE: I hate the EU!
By William Gaatjes on 5/12/2008 10:51:09 AM , Rating: 2
Don't make me laugh about the API's. The numerous times i wanted info i was better of with 3rd party sites then msdn where information could not be found, pages do not exist, links to wrong pages. Errors in code.
That is about what you are allowed to know.

And then there are the secret functions. Or maybe they are just hacked together and real vulnerabilities.
They provide information yes but only what they feel you need to know. Not all the functions.
The information they do provide is always better then nothing. And as i sad 3rd party websites, books, coarses explain a lot when you encouter a seemingly unsolvable problem.
Part of the reason microsoft wants to stop with win32 is because they want a lean and mean api. Unfortunately they have lost their focus again.

Do your research why they got fined. In every business you have a problem if you screw your customers. Cause they will go to the competition. Only in the software world that is not possible because if you don't use microsoft standards you cannot communicate with others. The only way microsoft becomes really up to par is when they have competition. And they have made sure for many years that there is no competition. And that is why you pay more and need a bigger machine for basically the same functionality in any window os. Longhorn was supposed to be different... What happened with that?

And this whole EU against US against UK crap. Come on.
In our free countries some people are rapidly forgetting that freedom comes with a price : RULES !!!
Absolute freedom does not exist but freedom where everybody lives happy together exists because of rules of how to behave. If microsoft behave more accordingly , les people have somthing to be dissapointed about and embrace microsoft software more.

We all have pretty decent lives because most people in our governments work hard but do not want to get their hands dirty. Some people in those same governments do. They make changes cause they accept the blood on their hands for us. Don't forget about that. Sometimes you just have to stand up against other people with criminal intentions. With every means necessary. That is a fact of human life. That is the case in a real war time but also in peace time.


RE: I hate the EU!
By wetlegs6 on 5/11/2008 2:31:48 PM , Rating: 4
Agree.

Ive always said this antitrust case was ridiculous and personally I'm ashamed to be part of Europe now.


RE: I hate the EU!
By SiN on 5/11/2008 10:00:22 PM , Rating: 1
Shut up and get out then. They gave them 3 years to comply with they way things work in europe. If they dont want to sell in the EU market by the EUs business practice polocies they dont have to. It was tounge in cheek for MS to continue the way it did.


RE: I hate the EU!
By CGfreak102 on 5/12/2008 11:05:07 AM , Rating: 3
ok sure they might not have complied but i mean if you are a programmer like me, and your told to release your source code to something you make, you would say screw that unless you get some money for each time it is used. like when tesla made the AC motor and AC generator. If i was M$ i would also say hell no. to me the EU ruling is unfair, and not needed. Im not sure if that is the exact problem M$ is facing with EU, but i dont have time to worry about BS fines.


RE: I hate the EU!
By SiN on 5/12/2008 7:59:50 PM , Rating: 2
i dont deny your right to keep it to yourself. but if thats the terms the EU has set out for you to work by, you either stop operating there, comply or get fined.

the whole point here is the EU has a strict anti competative POV towards MS. MS didn't cease to operate and work this out. They worked against the EU and got what they deserved for pushing its weight around.

I think the fine is crazy, but they didn't abide by EU ruling. The EC couldn't sit back and not do anything after it made it clear what MS were supposed to do if it wanted to continue to operate here.

it may not be fair, but it is the rules of the game MS tried to cheat and lost.


When I hear the words European and Union..
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/08, Rating: 0
By lexluthermiester on 5/11/2008 2:43:38 AM , Rating: 1
You would be wrong! While I am not a Microsoft hater, I have a severe distaste for many of the ways they conduct themselves. If this kind of thing happened in the U.S., the general populace would not have to submit to the will of a company that could care less about them, where their personal property is concerned. The likelihood of the Microsoft software/hardware we use being of a much higher quality would be greater indeed. Instead, we have a company that is trying to put a strangle-hold on everything we do and is doing it without providing a the level of quality that needs to exist. I could go on with such a list, but such an effort isn't necessary... Microsoft is getting what they rightfully deserve! And more of it needs to happen...


RE: When I hear the words European and Union..
By Ringold on 5/11/2008 3:37:10 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I have a severe distaste for many of the ways they conduct themselves.


You mean, their desire for profit? By many accounts, Europe could stand to learn a thing or two. America's having a 'bad' year, and American unemployment on a bad year is better than most of Europe when it's having an economic boom.

quote:
If this kind of thing happened in the U.S., the general populace would not have to submit to the will of a company that could care less about them, where their personal property is concerned.


No idea what you're talking about by submission. I submitted earlier to the evil capitalists at Coca-Cola and bought a pack of Diet Coke. Hope I don't need to run a virus scan on it, though. Don't know about over there in Europe, but here, Apple stores are pretty busy these days. Which ever product we choose to buy, its not done with while being pressured, no more so than consumers are under pressure to get designer jeans, etc. If a US consumer doesn't understand he's got at least two choices, then, well, they're living under a rock.


RE: When I hear the words European and Union..
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/2008 3:48:57 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
You mean, their desire for profit?


Remember this is Daily Tech. Where Intel and Microsoft are evil entities that only care about money. While AMD and other smaller companies are donating all their profits to children's charities and doing business out of the good of their own hearts.


By bryanW1995 on 5/12/2008 2:01:49 AM , Rating: 3
I guess it's been a bad couple of years for childrens charities, then...


By eye smite on 5/12/2008 9:27:46 AM , Rating: 1
In your first paragraph, mentioning how they could learn a thing or two from America about profit and such. Well, they already did, a very important lesson that everyone here has forgotten. It was the Jewish bankers greed over war reparations owed by Germany from WW1, that helped pave the way and lead to WW2, and while it might seem silly to us, they're not going to let a war break out over greed again.......
You know, we're all aware that companies are in business to make money unless they're non-profit. What's coming into question here is the morals and ethics on how said money was made, something I'm sad to say American companies have very little if any of anymore. Don't worry, we'll all pay the price for their unethical and dirty business dealings that they think they won't be caught doing. :-)


RE: When I hear the words European and Union..
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/2008 3:40:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
While I am not a Microsoft hater,


With all due respect, yes you are.


By lexluthermiester on 5/11/2008 4:01:46 PM , Rating: 2
Really? Gee ok, if you say so.

I mean, I love the very high quality mice/keyboards/controllers Microsoft produces. Flight Simulator is a wonderful piece of software. And Windows XP is still my favorite OS!

But hey, you say I'm a hater because I have an issue with Microsoft's very clearly unethical business practices... So you must be right.

Right? "Things that make you go, Hmmmmm..."


RE: When I hear the words European and Union..
By retrospooty on 5/11/2008 12:05:00 PM , Rating: 2
"If this kind of thing happened in the U.S., the general populace would not have to submit to the will of a company that could care less about them, where their personal property is concerned. The likelihood of the Microsoft software/hardware we use being of a much higher quality would be greater indeed. Instead, we have a company that is trying to put a strangle-hold on everything we do and is doing it without providing a the level of quality that needs to exist."

Your comment is absolutely obsurd. No one, in the US or otherwise has to submit to MS's will. No one anywhere in the world is forced to buy MS software, and MS doesnt have a "stranglehold" on the industry.

They are where they are because they were better than the competition. Remember, there was IBM, Apple and MS. MS outdid both of the others through years and years of effort. IBM was THE industry giant, and MS was the little guy. MS put out a better product year after year and IBM couldnt compete. Apple was also a far better PC than MS long ago. Apple failed to keep up as well. Eventually windows became equal, then better and cheaper, and more easily adaptable to any business or pleasure needs than Mac OS, and thus MS became the biggest.

Now, years later after being the biggest, (in spite of its faults, all OS's have faults) because their operating system is by far the best out there for the entire world to use for all different purposes... They have to deal with weenies like you saying rediculous poop like you just said.

You want to beat the big bad MS wolf? MAKE A BETTER OS. Just try it, I darae you. Apple and Linux are certainly the most capable of it at this point, and neiter are anywhere close to being able to do what MS does. End of story.

NEXT!


RE: When I hear the words European and Union..
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/2008 7:59:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or how about the fact that when you install Windows XP[admittedly, my favorite OS] you have to use complicated measures to permanently remove Windows Media Player, Internet Explorer and other undesirable bits from the installation[not using nLite]?


Uhhh, I have not used WMP or IE in like 6 years and I have never felt the need to remove them. Why would you want to ? Its always good to keep IE around anyway because sometimes, very rarely, pages that don't display properly on Firefox do so in IE.

But besides all that, since when is it illegal to make it hard to uninstall IE and WMP?


By lexluthermiester on 5/11/2008 10:57:09 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Uhhh, I have not used WMP or IE in like 6 years and I have never felt the need to remove them. Why would you want to ?


That is a very simple thing to explain. WMP, IE and some other components often do many things behind your back that most people would prefer they didn't. It's a gross invasion of privacy and takes up system resources doing so.

quote:
Its always good to keep IE around anyway because sometimes, very rarely, pages that don't display properly on Firefox do so in IE.


Name one website that doesn't display properly in Firefox? Perhaps a 4 years ago, that may have been true, but not now.

quote:
But besides all that, since when is it illegal to make it hard to uninstall IE and WMP?


It isn't. But it is illegal to have a monopoly, and that is why we all are discussing such on this article. Microsoft was in the wrong and was put to task. Something that needs to happen here in the US.


By murphyslabrat on 5/12/2008 9:55:36 AM , Rating: 2
Microsoft's ActiveX control is still used by many sites. My math class is through CourseCompass.com, and they use ActiveX.

ActiveX alone is enough to make me applaud the EC

BTW, is that 2mm EC?


By Reclaimer77 on 5/12/2008 5:22:05 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
WMP, IE and some other components often do many things behind your back that most people would prefer they didn't. It's a gross invasion of privacy and takes up system resources doing so.


Care to quantify for me how IE and WMP violates your privacy ? I'm damn sure that WOULD be a lawsuit in the US if they did. System resources ? Sure, but again, MS did nothing wrong by including these utilities in the OS. You might not like it, but again, its not illegal.

quote:
Name one website that doesn't display properly in Firefox? Perhaps a 4 years ago, that may have been true, but not now.


I have ran across some sights where the page displays fine but video does not stream properly unless I use IE. Or the video streams but sound does not play in Firefox. And I would point out that one of the most popular addons for Firefox is the " display in IE " addon. Obviously there is still some reason why a Firefox user would want to keep IE.

quote:
It isn't. But it is illegal to have a monopoly, and that is why we all are discussing such on this article. Microsoft was in the wrong and was put to task. Something that needs to happen here in the US.


Sure destroy a " monopoly " just for the sake of destroying one ? Its not even clear if they technically ARE a monopoly. You CAN use other OS's, but if you were really honestly with yourself, you would admit you don't want to.

Why can't I install a Mac OS on my PC ? Looks like I need to file a law suit right. Please.

Sorry but you and everyone else have failed in convincing us that MS is in the wrong. The fact that they have more money then god, and refuse to pay this fine and be extorted by the EU, is a good thing.

All I see is anti-American nationalism in your arguments. The EU is a crock and you know it.


By CGfreak102 on 5/12/2008 11:32:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are talking about 20 years ago, when Microsoft was a company that wanted to please the masses and listened to us, the users.


mmm, that is how the UAC came around, listening to the customer, and what happened. Everyone hates it, so what we do is blame M$ for putting that stuff in there even though we called for more security. and yes you can say M$ did put that in there to annoy the customer, but yet again they are just doing what the user wanted, did they not?


By retrospooty on 5/12/2008 3:40:10 PM , Rating: 2
"
Is by far the best? When was the last time you actually used MacOS? Or perhaps a mainstream version of Linux? And you accuse ME of spouting "ridiculous poop"? Love the irony..."


For overall use considering everyone, not just myself yes. It is the best for business, ease of use, gaming, and many many other things. It is also compatible with 90% of the world that uses it (its not 90% for no reason, its the biggest because it is the best).

Now, dont get me wrong, I know it has flaws, I am a technophile and I check out all the options. I had an Imac with Leopard in my house for 2 months, just got rid of it last month. - Not at all impressed with it. I used the latest Ubuntu (8.,04 beta) as well. Nice for a change, but not near ready to take on Windows.

And why on earth would I want to take Media player and IE out of windows? I use Nero showtime, quicktime, and media center to play my various videos. Its not necesary to remove one to use another. I use Firefox as well. No need to remove IE, just dont use it.

Yes, I re-iterate your comments are poop.


RE: When I hear the words European and Union..
By CyborgTMT on 5/12/2008 5:09:30 AM , Rating: 2
Wow... where to begin with this comment....

quote:
IBM was THE industry giant, and MS was the little guy. MS put out a better product year after year and IBM couldnt compete.

IBM wasn't in the business of personal computers for home use. The vast majority of their business was mainframe computers and office networks. IBM was/is a hardware company, which incidentally often ran MS's software. Before you throw out the OS/2 reply - OS/2 was created by Microsoft and IBM and was far superior to early Windows until MS 'broke' compatibility between the OSes.
quote:
Apple was also a far better PC than MS long ago. Apple failed to keep up as well.

You make that seem like Apple's OS went to crap. The reality is that Apple's management went to crap after Jobs left and Apple as a company fell apart. This is a prime example of your 'main' competitor shooting themselves and you claiming that you fired the shot. But I'll get back to Apple in a second.
quote:
Eventually windows became equal, then better and cheaper, and more easily adaptable to any business or pleasure needs than Mac OS, and thus MS became the biggest.

No, No, and No. Again we go back to the Apple failure and your lack of knowledge of the OS side of things. Apple's failing was partly due to keeping the OS tied to it's hardware. Dollar for dollar Apple hardware during it's bad spell was vastly inferior to IBM 'clone' pcs. While the OS itself had features more advanced than Windows at various releases having to use the more expensive and less efficient hardware made that a mute point. To compound the problem Apple tried a licensing deal for 3rd party companies to release their OS on. Most of these used bottom of the barrel hardware which only helped to hurt Apple's reputation. Again, this has nothing to do with Windows being a better product, there simply wasn't anyone else playing the game with them for a while.
quote:
You want to beat the big bad MS wolf? MAKE A BETTER OS. Just try it, I darae you. Apple and Linux are certainly the most capable of it at this point, and neiter are anywhere close to being able to do what MS does.

Oohhhh we've been 'daraed'. First MS is no where close to having the market share linux does in the server market, especially in web apps. Linux and Unix (Solaris in particular) are far superior products for that usage. As for desktop OSes, OSX has been ahead of Windows offering for years in terms of features and richness. Even the most hard core MS fan will admit that a lot of what went into Vista is a copy of what was done in OSX. But while Apple refuses to release the OS as a stand alone product it will never get the market share of Windows. Kind of reminds me of a MS shrill a few years ago that lambasted linux and said she would never use such a horrible OS, only to get called out for her site running on a linux server.
To wrap up my thoughts, I've got nothing against Windows OSes, in fact 4 of my computers are using a flavor of Windows on them. But to sit and type in that Windows was a superior product and that's why it gain market share is like saying... well, let's use your own misspelled words...
quote:
saying rediculous poop


RE: When I hear the words European and Union..
By retrospooty on 5/12/2008 3:46:10 PM , Rating: 2
wow... pretty long winded post. I wasnt really trying to paint Apple as infererior. I know they made mistakes, and so did MS.

My basic point is that MS is not the largest with 90% markeyshare because of illegal or immoral tactics. They got to be the biggest becasue they were the best option available. Dont just think about yourself, think of the entire world, including business users.

As for the rest of your post, its not really releveant, or correct.


By retrospooty on 5/12/2008 4:04:18 PM , Rating: 2
And also, IBM WAS in the business of making personal computers for Home and Business. They couldnt compete and got out of it.

Yes, Linux and Unix make better servers for most uses. What of it? What does that have to do with the fact that MS has 90% of the market?

When I say superior, again, I am not stating that is superior to ALL products in ALL aspects. Linux and OSX have thier good points, for sure, and I totally understand why people like them... I meant that overall looking at the needs of everyone, it was a better fit, thus they dominated and continue to dominate the market.


By euczechguy on 5/12/2008 4:24:00 AM , Rating: 1
U better solve ur own US-internal problems...
At least EU is not in debt of its own National bank and Federal reserve system...

And Microsoft violated EU antitrust and antimonopoly laws so the EC summary is more than accurate...
Besides, Microsoft failed to comply for almost 3 years!!!

of course, you can always say that EU is the same shit as NAU...
shit, i give up, its all the same and we all gonna end up in some damn totalist regime under one government using us only to work and die...


Yet another example of Microsoft abusing its power
By Qi on 5/11/2008 12:57:10 PM , Rating: 4
Check this out, yet another example of Microsoft abusing its power:

http://digg.com/microsoft/MSN_messenger_blocking_y...

Furthermore, I must say that I am amazed by the hypocrisy here on DailyTech. Just because it is the European Union doing this, it is all wrong and bad. Americans seem to forget that they too had some problems with Microsoft in the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Micr...

Americans will have to get used to the fact that the European Union is getting increasingly more important. The EU is already the largest economy in the world, and companies will have to play by the rules if they want to do business here.




By Master Kenobi (blog) on 5/11/2008 2:23:47 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Furthermore, I must say that I am amazed by the hypocrisy here on DailyTech. Just because it is the European Union doing this, it is all wrong and bad. Americans seem to forget that they too had some problems with Microsoft in the past:

Yes, but we learned from this sort of bullshit. Look no further than the breakup of AT&T 30 years ago to see that screwing with that sort of thing causes more problems than it fixes. Destroying a monopoly for the sake of destroying it will set us back years when we could be moving forward.

quote:
Americans will have to get used to the fact that the European Union is getting increasingly more important. The EU is already the largest economy in the world, and companies will have to play by the rules if they want to do business here.

The EU is not a single economy. You might like to think it is, but its not and is not represented as such.
Furthermore the EU is not all that important, its about as important as the UN is (Read: Not very much). I fully understand that the EU is the new guy on the block and wants to be seen as a major player, but they are doing it in the wrong way.


RE: Yet another example of Microsoft abusing its power
By Hare on 5/11/2008 3:01:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The EU is not a single economy. You might like to think it is, but its not and is not represented as such.

I don't think comparing the EU to UN is a good analogy.

From wikipedia:
The European Union (EU) is a political and economic community of twenty-seven member states, The EU has developed a single market through a standardised system of laws which apply in all member states, guaranteeing the freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 5/11/2008 6:02:15 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The EU has developed a single market through a standardised system of laws which apply in all member states, guaranteeing the freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital.

All you have managed to state is that the EU has sweeping laws that apply to all EU members. This does not indicate a single economy. Heck the member nations still report as if they were separate economies. But don't listen to me, let me grab an economic website here for you.
http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/

But since you like Wikipedia so much here we go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Europe...
Sorry but that sort of arrangement is not indicitive of a single economy, but rather a loose collection of economies with a few treaties.


RE: Yet another example of Microsoft abusing its power
By Qi on 5/12/2008 12:09:34 AM , Rating: 5
You can twist the definition of 'economy' all you want, but all major economic organisations treat the European Union - and even more so the Eurozone - as a single economy. This is also reflected in the International Monetary Fund, the OECD and the World Bank having separate entries and reports for the European Union. The CIA World Factbook has a separate entry for the European Union as well.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/subjdet.asp?s...
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/subjdet.asp?s...
http://www.oecd.org/eu
http://www.worldbank.org/eu
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world...

And some press reports emphasizing my point:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL149197...
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j2RAttyZxnntuD...


RE: Yet another example of Microsoft abusing its power
By SiN on 5/12/2008 8:04:55 AM , Rating: 2
Either way he is correct in saying it is not a single economy yet. We share a single currency wich is why such organisations treat us as one, but we are in fact not one economy.

It is a goal to become a "more unified" economy in the EU, but we aren't quite there yet.


By Qi on 5/12/2008 12:42:06 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Either way he is correct in saying it is not a single economy yet. We share a single currency wich is why such organisations treat us as one, but we are in fact not one economy.
He isn't correct in saying that, as I've shown. And you've just proved my point as well, saying that major economic organisations treat us as a single economy. Again, you can twist the definition of 'economy' all you want, but the European Union, and especially the Eurozone, is treated as a single economic market all over the world. Most - if not all - major economic organisations have separate reports and entries for the European Union and Eurozone. The European Union even has its own representative at the World Trade Organisation. And in addition we have our own central bank (the ECB), our own currency (the euro), a common market with no border controls (Schengen Agreement) and nearly complete free movement of goods, services, capital and labour within the Union.


By SiN on 5/12/2008 8:00:05 AM , Rating: 2
HA HA HA, the EU has guaranteed the freedom of movement of people or goods.

We still have Roaming charges because we pass through a boarder within the EU when using cellular networks. And if i want to import a car i have to pay VRT tax on that vehicle. With exception of a few things, the EU is still some way from becomming the "open market" it promised us.

Im still Pro-Europian though, Polotics takes time is all. Dont quote from the wiki on topic like the EU.


By Qi on 5/12/2008 12:37:00 AM , Rating: 3
quote:

Thank you. I have now had my big hearty laugh for the day. Ahh, good stuff.

Watch out America !! The EU is coming for you, get used to it !!!!
That's not what I said. I merely stated that Americans will have to get used to the fact that the 'American Empire' will decline in coming years. The European Union, but also India, Russia and especially China will all become increasingly more important. The influence of these countries will grow at America’s expense.

quote:
You dare talk about abusive of power and make statements like these ? Your in favor of the EU abusing its power simply because they are the " largest " and its " their rules ".
Tackling anti-competitive practices has nothing to do with power abuse, it's what the European Commission is supposed to do. American companies have nothing to fear if they play by the rules. In fact, it's in their own interest to play by the rules or else they risk losing out on a market of half a billion people.


By euczechguy on 5/12/2008 4:34:21 AM , Rating: 1
FFS, take a look and US dollar courses abroad...
2 years ago, i could buy one buck for 29 czech crowns, nowadays, its the most fu**ed up currency with course of only 15,2 czech crowns :D

maybe u dont experience the fall of US currency and thus economics inside of US, but there are still other parts of the world outside of US :D

of course, if the level of US educations was just a bit higher, cca 31,3% in comparison to EUs, i would be talking about this here, now would I?

LOL!


By Reclaimer77 on 5/12/2008 8:42:34 PM , Rating: 2
Not once did you capitalize your sentences.

quote:
i would be talking about this here, now would I?


Did you mean " I wouldn't be talking about this here " ? And by the way, its I not i.

quote:
take a look and US dollar courses abroad...


English please ?

quote:
of course, if the level of US educations was just a bit higher


Pot meet kettle.


By michael67 on 5/13/2008 6:23:12 PM , Rating: 2
I understand perfect what he was saying even do there ware some faults in it.
But would love to see you write in a other languish then your own i will count he faults then.
And he is coming from a country that is overcoming 50 years of communism.


By euczechguy on 5/15/2008 5:37:38 AM , Rating: 2
sad....
just as I expected...
the thing is I was so angry I couldnt even write well...
anyways, u catch my drift...

courses of US dollar to other currencies?

I apologize, I must be headed to uncharted territory there...
Oh my God, is there anything else beyond US borders? I think not!!!!

US Government is constantly stupifying US population by degrading and lowering of the educational standarts...
Totalistic governments never wanted their people educated, because educated person thinks too much and might be revealing the plans of government...
try opening ur eyes and asking urself a question: Do I really know and think or do I just think I think?


By CGfreak102 on 5/12/2008 11:40:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The EU is already the largest economy in the world


just wait for china to come to, if that place keeps at the it is going at, we will all be surpassed, sure the EU might lead, but not for long.


Solution
By MBlueD on 5/11/2008 5:41:45 AM , Rating: 2
If Windows and Microsoft are so bad - how about the EU stop Microsoft from selling Windows within EU authority?

What alternatives does the EU have? Apple and Linux.

Well, Apple is out of question due to hardware exclusivity.

I like Linux and hope it grows to be a real operating system for the masses. I use a Linux machine at work, but I've seen more application crashes on it than I've seen on an almost constantly running Windows XP machine I have at home (with all kinds of use - Games, development, media playing).

But until Linux becomes easier to use, I see no substitute to Windows. That means that Windows is going to dominate the market whether they want it or not (and Microsoft surely wants it). If Microsoft was to stop selling products to the EU, I bet it would do much more harm than their monopolistic practices. I see no sense in the EU ruling.

I could be looking at an entirely wrong picture here though...




RE: Solution
By Bcnguy on 5/11/2008 8:50:04 AM , Rating: 2
Are you serious?

Things are not black or white, fortunately


RE: Solution
By BZDTemp on 5/11/2008 7:29:21 PM , Rating: 2
Well for one denying Microsoft the right to sell Windows would properly make a lot of the posters in this forum have a heart attack :-)

But seriously. The EU is not about prohibiting a company from doing business it is just about making sure no one uses a huge market lead to gain control over other type of business.

You seem to agree that the monopolistic practices of Microsoft is doing harm then what is wrong with trying to force Microsoft to change those practices? Surely it is a good thing and not a bad thing.


RE: Solution
By MBlueD on 5/12/2008 8:36:07 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is that EU seems to be fighting evil with evil.
As some other posters said, being a monopoly is something that comes to Microsoft by nature of the market place (at least in current times perspective). That Microsoft has an overwhelming share of the market in itself is not necessarily evil.
Microsoft providing special hooks into windows for some of their programs is debatable, but I believe that any such hooks (except when they really affect security - in which case they should not be needed in the first place) should be made public. If not, then by all means enforce their disclosure. But such a huge fine is really too much...


RE: Solution
By theapparition on 5/12/2008 9:12:05 AM , Rating: 3
I'll give credit to the EU when it also goes after Apple for bundling Safari/iTunes/iLife. If it's not OK for MS, then why is it OK for Apple. Marketshare means nothing if it's wrong, it's wrong.

Until then, the EU is clearly discriminating and I'll dismiss their claims as such.


RE: Solution
By Hare on 5/12/2008 11:45:29 AM , Rating: 2
Actually Apple is also under fire

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070311-eu-c...

"Consumer Protection Meglena Kuneva has spoken out against the tie-in between the iPod and Apple's iTunes Store. Speaking on the topic of DRM, Commissioner Kuneva says in comments reported in German-language magazine Focus that she believes consumers shouldn't be locked into the iPod by music they purchase from Apple's iTunes Store."

Safari bundling is a new issue so I doubt anyone has yet done anything. Besides it's not wrong to bundle a browser with a mediaplayer? If you think so, I quess all software that came with google/yahoo toolbar etc should be banned... Or virus protection / firewall bundles.


RE: Solution
By CGfreak102 on 5/12/2008 11:49:49 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed.

I hate it when i have to uncheck all that BS from Apple when i update itunes, i do not want safari, i would rather use Mozilla FireFox over IE7 and safari

i also like to add that most people who say M$ is a monopoly is just basing that on Market share not actually looking at how we determine if a company has a monopoly. There are other option out there and Apples market share is growing, so lets hit M$ with another fine, before its to late. WTF


RE: Solution
By BZDTemp on 5/12/2008 4:17:57 PM , Rating: 2
Market shares mean nothing!

You really haven't gotten the first idea on what this is about have you!

Market share means pretty much everything in this case. When a company have a dominant position in one market that becomes a problem if said company uses that position to gain control of other markets.

Perhaps you remember how Microsoft decided they wanted to browser market and ran Netscape out of business by including IE with every Windows copy. That was the grounds for a case in the US where Microsoft was made pay a lot of millions to Netscape.

The EU case is not about IE but the principles are the same. Sure it may be that it seems a nice idea for consumers that an OS comes with a lot of extra stuff but do you really think Microsoft is giving away stuff to be nice?

Also people keep mentioning the size of the fine. Sure - it is a lot of money but compare it with what Microsoft is earning it's a small amount. The fine is meant to make Microsoft change it's way of doing business - if the fine is small the company will just see it as cost of doing business. Say a speeding ticket was 2 bucks and imagine what effect that would have on people speeding.


Monoply XL
By AmazighQ on 5/11/2008 7:28:04 AM , Rating: 3
Microsoft has a market share of over 90% for there OS's!
This whole discussion over MS in the EU smells of patriotism.
If 1 company holds that much market share i will be bound to abuse it power.
Capitalism is great but not at the cost of people or IP.
But here its in EU and that is 4500 km( 2.800.000 miles) away.
and suddenly MS is a saint and i never ever ever had does anything wrong in the eyes of US people. The hypocrisy is indeed very strong here

And really you shouldn't be worried about the EU you should be worried about China that doesn't even pay for any OS. And it is counterfeiting and pirating the crap out of US patents and IP's.




RE: Monoply XL
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/2008 12:03:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If 1 company holds that much market share i will be bound to abuse it power.


The implication being they got that much market share from dirty play and illegal activities. Not one of you have conceded that Windows is simply the best alternative for the largest number of people. Show me and OS that works with all my hardware, favorite software, and can play any game that comes down the pipe and I will be happy to switch.

quote:
MS is a saint and i never ever ever had does anything wrong in the eyes of US people.


Americans bash MS all the time in huge numbers. Where have you been ? But most people recognize this ruling for what it is, a big money grabbing shakedown. I mean hell, while the EU is at it why don't they just sue MS for the Windows source code ?


RE: Monoply XL
By P4blo on 5/12/2008 3:44:57 AM , Rating: 2
Your argument doesn't hold. When the operating system market was in its early stages of development you could try and argue that 'the best product won through' (even though ironically Apple's OS was way ahead of Windows). Since Microsoft now hold 90% of the market it's fooling to imply that it still deserves this strangle hold on the market because it's 'the best alternative'.

For most, it's the only alternative. With that level of market control any company will play games. They can either keep paying fines to the EU or play by the rules. It's really simple.


RE: Monoply XL
By MBlueD on 5/12/2008 8:38:39 AM , Rating: 2
Windows is my only alternative. Linux can't detect my sound card and Apple OS needs an (often overpriced) Apple computer...


When I hear the words European and Union..
By Reclaimer77 on 5/11/2008 2:25:11 AM , Rating: 2
Why do images of jackbooted goose steppers come to mind ? Seriously, European and Union ? That just sends chills up my spine.

Apparently bleeding their own businesses and citizens dry wasn't enough. Now they are trying to drag down Microsoft.

These " rulings " are totally absurd. Even the most passionate MS hater couldn't possibly think this is legitimate.




By William Gaatjes on 5/11/2008 3:00:36 PM , Rating: 2
Well , i don't hate microsoft at all.
Most of their succes comes from hard work and that is how they made lot's of money.
Did they use dirty tricks sometimes. Sure they did, but almost every company has some dirty secret.

Anyway, microsoft did a lot of hard work to become and make standards.

So what is my issue ?

I do not have any problem with the fact that microsoft will not listen and therefore must be forced to listen.

You see, an OS must be treated as a black box. How it works is the secret of the writer of the software.
However, how it communicates must always be known for a normal free market to operate.
Cause we in the free world have chosen for a model where the best player in the game of getting the customers money wins.
That game is not possible when one player does not have to comply to rules every other player has to.

My personal opinion is that any api should always be available free of charge.
If you as manufacturer are confident that you have a quality product, people will not run away.
If you need to fall back to plain lies and dirty tricks to keep market share...

That is not in the best interest of the customer.

Just look at the history. Every time competition survices , microsoft really starts to do something and not sell the same wine in different bottles. But developing new wine is difficult. And in microsofts case usually the new wine is sour at first but improves in tast when they again start to learn about recepies.


By Hakuryu on 5/11/2008 8:02:35 PM , Rating: 2
Apple sells phones and PC's in Europe, and from day 1 they have been proprietary - their music only plays on Apple hardware, and their OS is locked down also (from what I've heard-sorry not an Apple user).

So how does Apple get away with being proprietary and Microsoft cant? As far as I know, you can't run IE or Open Office on Macs. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I said I'm not an Apple user.

Isn't the Ipod setup of only allowing apple tracks to be played similar to Microsofts OS not allowing other software to interact with it? Different things, but familiar in how they actually work imo.




By MBlueD on 5/12/2008 8:49:35 AM , Rating: 2
Windows is an OS, hence the stricter standards.
Also, the problem is not monopoly, but anti-competitive behavior. I don't know a lot about Apple, but I bet they have some anti-competitive behavior of their own.


User input cleaning
By Hare on 5/11/2008 5:13:30 AM , Rating: 2
Who broke the comment system?

Almost all messages are in italic. Bad case of regexp / user input escaping :)




Name a Vista Bug
By SecTech767 on 5/14/2008 9:55:48 AM , Rating: 2
Everyone hates on Vista but can never seem to name its problems.

Name me 3 Vista bugs... I dare you.




nickpicking
By dome1234 on 5/11/2008 9:29:41 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
After alleging that the electronics giant engaged in price fixing and other anticompetitive processes,....


i know they do sell mice and videogame console, but software giant might be more appropriate. Yes, i'm this bored!




“So far we have not seen a single Android device that does not infringe on our patents." -- Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith














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