DailyTech - Microsoft Execs Lash Out at Sony's Blu-ray Efforts

Blu-Ray FTW

By cochy on 5/31/2006 4:23:46 PM , Rating: 2

Congrats to Sony for having the guts to bank on an expensive however superior tech. Just imagine what game designers could do with a wopping 50GB? wow. This is a big plus for gamers! Forget about movies. As a home theater component HD-DVD might probably win the day, because of its lower price point. However for a game machine, which the PS3 primarily is, Blu-Ray kicks butt.

RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By Xenoid on 5/31/2006 5:03:21 PM , Rating: 2

If you're thinking supporting Blu-Ray just think back to the BetaMax days (some of you here probably weren't speaking then) and read this: http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/08/10/blu/index.html

And many other similiar examples of this. Also note that Sony movies are about half the quality of a regular movie. They love to cheap out on you but charge you the same ridiculous prices for their shoddy hardware.

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By dome1234 on 5/31/2006 5:20:47 PM , Rating: 2

/quote

August 10, 2005

a rather dated article, no? I thought the bd delay was part due to the late finalisation of specs. But I won't be suprised the movie studios are gungho in their application.

They're blaming their revenue loss to "casual copying/sharing" when really major chunk of their sale are lost to other forms of entertainment such off/online gaming.

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By kextyn on 5/31/2006 6:33:32 PM , Rating: 2

If you don't support it it will die. Money talks.

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By segagenesis on 5/31/2006 5:35:03 PM , Rating: 2

Yes, because we all know how crippled game designers are now with 4.3GB DVD's. And those poor gamecube developers with 1/3rd the storage! Oh wait...

Obviously you were born yesterday and forgot that most of the first gen CD-ROM games when the technology was new consisted mostly of FMV to use all that space. Remember Sega CD? Look back at these old games and realize the ones that didnt have any video or little of it barely used 20MB of the disc, if that.

The same would be true with 50GB discs unless they start storing game data in plaintext uuencoded ascii ten times over. It's not about games, Sony is praying/gambling that including the drive with the PS3 will increase the chances of the format for movies.

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 6:21:58 PM , Rating: 2

"We are never going to need more than 640K main memory" - Billy......

LOL

50 Gigs gives space for more differntlooking textures than a DVD can take. Let's get rid of repeated textures :)

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 6:24:32 PM , Rating: 2

And with 128-bit colors, will textures not take up a LOT more space than today? :)

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128 bit color ??

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 8:37:27 PM , Rating: 2

Notice the settings on Windows display..
32bit high.

Notice that the highest quality scanners you can buy are 36-40 bit..

You know why ? The human eye can't see anything over like 40 bit color.. anything over that is not only unnoticeable.. its just plain useless !!

24 bit Trucolor is 16.7 million colors.. virtually any color you'd come across in real life. 32 bit is quite a bit more.. beyond that the eye can't tell much and confuses color .. much like beyond a certain amount of frames in tv is worthless because its steady.. tv is 30 frames per second.. yet you can hide a frame with a pic of a hotdog in it.. and the person wont know he saw this.. Experimentation was done at one time on this.. it was used for advertisement in making subliminal messages.

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RE: 128 bit color ??

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 12:13:30 AM , Rating: 2

Why does every game graphics look like - well - game graphics then??

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Textures

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 8:40:09 PM , Rating: 2

when it comes to the textures I agree they could take up more.. but it has been strongly stated by Sony, MS and the industry that HD -DVD nor Blu ray is needed for gaming within the next 4-5 yrs..

Putting games uneedingly on those disc would significantly raise prices of games. 50 gig Blu ray disc is 45 dollars blank.. now put a game on that.. which is normally ona DVD that cost 2 dollars to buy. Its simple.

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RE: Textures

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 4:28:25 PM , Rating: 2

But will the discs not be cheper in say 6 months time from now, AFTER the PS3 release?

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By TheDoc9 on 5/31/2006 6:31:14 PM , Rating: 2

Textures can certainly take up loads of space. If you use few hi-rez 5MB textures in a game, which is still low, it only takes a few hundred to start running into space issues with DVD's.

The truth is, if you have the space you will use it.

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By segagenesis on 5/31/2006 7:23:11 PM , Rating: 2

Thankfully you all ignored something called compression, but thats ok to believe were still in 1994. Despite the fact we have DVD storage in modern gaming texture compression is still used because you fit more in the same available space. Hell, even the PS One at the time was very capacious with CD media but alot of games used palletized textures to fit enough in the systems partly video memory. Even sound was compressed with ADPCM and allowed discs to hold alot more than the standard 74 minutes of audio. Multi disc games were limited to... surprise... ones with heavy FMV.

As far as repeating and/or low-rez textures still present in modern games, blame the developers and not the media. If UT 2004 looked pretty sharp on a 64MB card with DXTC5 at its time, then they are not even trying hard enough today. Maybe I'm cynical because I'm tired of newer games still having Nintendo 64 blurry texture syndrome 10 years later when the hardware is vastly better.

</rant>

People dont think logically anymore apparently and 50GB discs will be vastly underutilized for gaming outside high defenition FMV. Do more with what you have before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And you really thing BD-ROM media is free even when manufacturered? I expect to see it affect the cost of games, too.

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Textures

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 9:01:45 PM , Rating: 2

Yes youre adressing a relal issue.. space..

Want to know why it doesnt matter though for either system ? Espcially Sony Ps3 ?

The PS3 has a slightly more powrful GPU the Xbox360.. will truth is.. it has to ! The odd thing is its already been debated by developers that PS3's graphics card and memory is its bottleneck.. Some of the complex games will not be in 1080P on Ps3 because the memory on PS3 becomes a bottlneck. All the storage in the world doesnt matter if the other hardware can't handle those textures !

And one more thing. This is getting old. People keep talking about Blu ray and needing room for more textures. Its been said that games will not be on Bluray. Space is not needed and would make games cost much more. A blank 50 gig bluray disc is 45 dollars. The reason the Ps3 likely has a 60 gig hardrive is so you can load a game off DVD and run it from hardrive. This makes sense. I mean Even if the Bluray player on PS3 could record ( im hearing that it wont be able to record - only play ) it still couldnt write fast enough to blank spots - saying they theoretically had them ) to write game data.. saves.. etc.. in a way that wouldnt stall the game or make you see the game shudder.. while the hardrive can do all this much faster then an optical read/writer..

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RE: Textures

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 11:07:32 PM , Rating: 2

If this is true - Why don't we still use floppys for games? :)

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RE:

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 11:43:24 PM , Rating: 2

Does that need to be answered?

Comparing a regular DVD to CD maybe a better analogy.. And yet here YOU are trying to make YOUR point by comparing the conversation here which is Blu Ray VS. HD-DVD storage-wise.. next to a floppy disc that is more then 40 yrs old technology !

I have 2 high def movies recorded on my tivo's 30 gig hardrive with plenty of room left. We really don't need that much space in the next 5yrs on One disc... One disc has advantages.. but also disadvantages.. if you screw up that one disc and have alot on it.. you're screwed.. larger capacity disc cost more.

Bluray advocates here keep talking about how 'quickly' the price will drop on media. A blank Bluray disc cost 45 dollars now.. and comments are being made about how fast that will change.

Well it hasn't changed much at all for blank DVD disc media - which are much cheaper to make. Why do you think it will change for this much higher cost media so quick ? The reason is still cost alot for DVD media is because 200 million people don't have DVD recorders at home for regular use.. I think more people have them in their PC's !

Reality is I doubt Blu-ray or HD-DVD will grow huge anytime soon.. Reality is PS3 - while it could be moderate sucessful - will not be the huge sucess PS2 was.. I'm not the only PS2 owner around who is likely passing on this one.. I told myself if the price dropped alot then maybe in one or 2 yrs if its not a failure.. definately not anytime soon though..

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RE:

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 4:36:10 PM , Rating: 2

On BluRay (or HD-DVD for that matter) I could see not only the game itself, maybe the movie of the game (if that xists of course :) Even the game with a lot more different audio that we have today, so we don't need repetitions like we hear in a lot of games still. It could also be interesting to maybe have xtra material like "the making of" the game/movie etc. etc. THEN the price and capacity would be satisfaction guaranteed :)

I think that either format is going to stay, but I'll consider BR the most futureproof since the capacity is at the moment able to go higher than HD-DVD.

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RE: Blu-Ray FTW

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 7:58:37 PM , Rating: 2

Just imagine what game designers could do with a wopping 50GB?

You have no clue. Both manufacturers have already echoed what the gaming industry has stated many times. They don't need the space for games !! games won't be on Blu ray or HD DVD ! There is still plenty of room on regular old fashioned DVD !!!

Let me say this.. to sum it up..
Blu ray 50 gigs disc cost 45 dollars by themselves !!!

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More...

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 8:03:42 PM , Rating: 2

Let me say this.. to sum it up..
Blu ray 50 gigs disc cost 45 dollars by themselves !!!

I just want to explain more for you Sony kids posting here who post whatever to kiss some Japanese company's @sses..

If they were to put a game ona 50 gig disc.. that game would be over 100 dollars.. the regular game cost plus the cost of the blu ray disc.. Did I spell it out for you ?

A regular DVD disc cost about a Two dollars..

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RE: More...

By TheDoc9 on 6/1/2006 11:24:42 AM , Rating: 2

Ok thats it viperohb, I think no one has called you on your bs because the're tired of reading it. But I will.

First of all, I'm not sure you can even buy 50gb blu-rays now, but If you could they probably would cost about as much as your saying....FOR CONSUMERS.

Remimber that the recordable discs we get and the manufactured type are completly different. Consumer versions are going to extreemly expensive right now partly because of low yields, but mostly because it's a new product and they want to make as much as possible before the competion really kicks in.

Sony claims that when producing dvd's in bulk at a manufacturing plant, that they can produce them for about the same price as dvd. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. It's probably slightly higher right now, with the initial costs going towards new equipment.

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RE: More...

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 4:38:05 PM , Rating: 2

Well said.

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So Microsoft is afraid...

By jskirwin on 5/31/2006 2:32:03 PM , Rating: 2

of PS3.

Interesting.

RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By UsernameX on 5/31/06, Rating: 0

RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By segagenesis on 5/31/2006 5:27:22 PM , Rating: 2

Thanks for repeating an argument over 25 years old in regards to VHS vs. Beta. Whats going to depend on wins regardless of which one is technically superior is whether manufacturers are willing to share or not. Sony didnt with Beta and it lost miserably for consumer use.

I'd rather hope both formats die in a fire before forcing me yet again to purchase the same movie for the 4th time in some cases. I'm done, provide a significant reason to buy it again that does not involve a $3000 TV to see the difference. And dont tell me about BD-ROM storage capacity, I already have alot of hard drive space.

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Why Betamax failed

By AnnihilatorX on 5/31/2006 7:18:57 PM , Rating: 2

There were distinct reason why betamax failed

It was the lawsuit between the movie industry and sony
and the fatal mistake of misjudging the user needs of recording time over quality

Here I don't think you can compare betamax with bluray. The mishaps of betamax is just not present

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RE: Why Betamax failed

By segagenesis on 5/31/2006 7:29:27 PM , Rating: 2

VHS was the starter, DVD was a significant upgrade, but Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are only upgrades if you have the display for it. The mishap for both formats here is expecting everyone to have a really nice HDTV when thats not the case yet. And I have to re-iterate, people are tired of buying the same movie over again. It was bad enough when DVD's started as movie only (and bad transfers at that) and progressed to re-re-re-releases with everything and the kitchen sink extras.

If they really want to get people to buy this stuff they need to offer content worth paying the premium for.

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RE: Why Betamax failed

By Devil Bunny on 5/31/2006 10:38:01 PM , Rating: 2

And since when do you have to have an HDTV to use HD-DVD or Blue-ray. for those that dont have them they'll just get more content but wont be able to reap the benifets of HD

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By Missing Ghost on 6/1/2006 8:04:44 PM , Rating: 2

I agree, we should just ignore hd-dvd and blu-ray and not talk about them, maybe people will forget they exist and they will disappear.

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By aGreenAgent on 5/31/2006 6:14:57 PM , Rating: 1

That's a simplistic explanation, sure.

You're missing tons of reasons blu-ray could suck, and only listing advantages, and one disadvantage.

Market adoption is one risk factor, and so is consumer willingness to upgrade.

Blu-Ray is one more thing to add to entertainment systems.

HD-DVD media works with regular DVD drives and players - that is a HUGE advantage over Blu-Ray.

I don't think Blu-Ray will fair well unless Sony really pulls out all the stops for it.

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By AnnihilatorX on 5/31/2006 7:16:56 PM , Rating: 2

"HD-DVD media works with regular DVD drives and players"

Where did you hear that

HD-DVD also uses Blue laser which therefore should not be backward compatible

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By tigen on 5/31/2006 7:22:18 PM , Rating: 2

Maybe he means the hybrid HD-DVDs that have both types of content (possible because the physical characteristics match old DVDs).

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By aGreenAgent on 6/1/2006 2:38:33 AM , Rating: 2

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By tigen on 5/31/2006 7:19:18 PM , Rating: 2

Isn't bluray superior or atleast equal in every aspect aside from it's price??

It may also be less durable. But even if price was the only problem, it's a huge problem. Price/performance is what it's all about since the two technologies are similar enough. I used to think like you do about Blu-ray based only on the claimed higher capacity. But, I've come to realize that really doesn't matter. That, plus Sony's tendency to overhype things (hence I don't put much stock in that 200GB claim).

Right now neither Blu-ray or HD-DVD is the answer. They aren't a big enough step ahead of DVD and are too expensive. One disc for $20? No thanks. This may change, and in this department HD-DVD's price advantage is the key. Otherwise might as well wait for these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile...

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By nangryo on 5/31/2006 7:55:41 PM , Rating: 2

Holographic Vesatile Disc won't be on consumer level anytime soon. It was targeted at professional user first (morelike so SCSI and ATA). The first HVD drive cost more than 10 GRAND. And it's disc cost more than 100 bucks. And it's not gonna drop anywhere near soon.
Coz there's already HD-DVD/Blue-Ray that's targeted for consumer level (then again.. just like SCSI and ATA interface, ones for prof level, and one for cunsumer level).

So.. if u'r waiting for HVD to get cheap...
Expected to at least wait for 5-10 years more...

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By beemercer on 5/31/2006 9:55:27 PM , Rating: 3

And you cant forget that the HVD burners are massive, like the size of a dishwasher.

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By Missing Ghost on 6/1/2006 8:07:47 PM , Rating: 2

http://regmedia.co.uk/2005/11/24/maxell_holo.jpg

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By Xavian on 6/1/2006 6:34:34 AM , Rating: 2

You are confusing HVD with its enterprise storage (tape-replacement) equivilent, there has been no price set on HVD as it is still being designed, it is intedned to be the true sucessor to DVD, but not for a while yet, the technology will blow away Blu-ray and HD-DVD in 3-4 years after it is finalized and released.

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By Xavian on 6/1/2006 6:36:48 AM , Rating: 2

"InPhase Technologies has developed a holographic format they call Tapestry Media, capable of storing up to 1.6TB with a data transfer rate of 120 MB/s."

In the Wikipedia Article, thats the tape-replacement version and costs $15k for the reader.

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RE: So Microsoft is afraid...

By beemercer on 6/1/2006 3:47:00 PM , Rating: 3

Ohh, I remember seeing some picture of this massive device; must be the tape replacement one.

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Stupid

By Trisped on 5/31/2006 2:34:19 PM , Rating: 2

Of course the Execs are going to trash talk it; it is the competition.
Yes, it would have been better if the HD DVD drive had been ready when the system launched, but it is only really there to compete with the PS3's Blue Ray drive.

I think they have a point though, it isn't nice to drag gamers through the HD war just so Sony can get more market acceptance for its proprietary format. I don't mind if you do it to fan boys, because they live for that type of miss treatment, but gamers deserve better.

RE: Stupid

By bounds on 5/31/2006 2:44:54 PM , Rating: 1

Is MS not doing exactly the same thing with the HD DVD peripheral. If its widely accepted it'll be seen as must have item much like the hard drive...

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RE: Stupid

By Quiksel on 5/31/2006 2:52:05 PM , Rating: 2

No, it's not the same... Standard HD-DVD vs. Optional HD-DVD is a big difference! MS isn't making you buy a HD-DVD drive so you can play 360 games. They aren't even making games based on that media anyways, last I read.

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RE: Stupid

By ZeeStorm on 5/31/2006 3:51:28 PM , Rating: 1

Ya, that's true, but they won't be making a Blu-Ray optional component (even with BR does win the next-gen war). Meaning, if you're a X360 fanboy, and want a next-gen format without a standalone player, then you'll only be able to get the HD-DVD component.

Least Sony's component can play games too. As game graphics get bigger and bigger, and HD-quality gets pushed. Many games will be pushing that DVD-9 barrier. Look how far they went from Xbox1/PS2. Many games were under 2gb, and now, most will be over 4-5g. Only time will hurt M$, least Sony is doing something about it so they won't be too hurt.

Then again, M$'s cash cow will just make you buy another system in 5 years, and end support and games for X360. But aren't they doing that with computer systems (Vista + Xbox games) already?....

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RE: Stupid

By hoppa on 5/31/2006 4:19:19 PM , Rating: 3

Actually, game sizes (in terms of memory) have been growing at a very slow pace in recent years. Graphics hardly take up any memory at all, even with huge textures. The only things that really take space are movie files (especially high rez ones) and audio. Since games are becoming harder and harder to develop, especially on untamed beasts like the PS3, game length is becoming shorter, which means less audio tracks and less memory. Just because a game is displayed in HD doesn't mean it is any bigger on disk, except for perhaps the higher rez textures, which as noted still don't take up much space.

Anyway, what's so wrong with, like, 2 DVDs? It's still a lot cheaper to produce than 1 blu-ray.

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RE: Stupid

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 6:13:17 PM , Rating: 2

Huh?

Graphics doen't take up much memory - I think it takes most. Eg. GTA Vice City, 3 CDs - ONE with music (not even full btw.) 2 CDs for gamecode? Unrael games are basically at a 2 to 1 ratio in favor of graphics etc. etc.

U must B kiddin' ...

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RE: Stupid

By jkresh on 5/31/2006 4:25:35 PM , Rating: 3

Actually they have said in the past that if blue ray were to win they could make a blue ray add on for 360. I would suspect they don’t want to but if blue ray were to become the dominant format I am sure they would rather add a blue ray player then have their customers buy a ps3.

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RE: Stupid

By Xavian on 5/31/2006 7:28:35 PM , Rating: 2

You are talking about CD's here, 3 CD's is at last count 1950MB (approx 1.9GB [1950 / 1024]). That is far far from even single layer DVD maximums let alone the 9.4GB DVD-9 discs, graphics are large indeed, but compression on those graphics (which unlike proper movies does not reduce quality) is always getting better too. At the very end of this generation i'd be surprised if the size of the average console game exceeds 5GB.

Only games with costly FMV movies (since FMV movies by far take up the most space) will be ones exceeding this barrier but dont expect it to even get near the DVD-9 limit.

So please get your facts straight, Blu-ray and HD-DVD are for 720p/1080i/1080p movies only, thats their only purpose at this time for consoles no more, no less. Also dont expect some fully featured $1000 player on that console either, its gonna be bare-bones (remember the PS2? the DVD player on that was incredibly bare-bones). We could be looking down the barrel of a repeat of the VHS/betamax war, with Sony still on the losing side (after all Betamax was technically superior to VHS at the time)

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RE: Stupid

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 11:43:12 PM , Rating: 2

My facts are straight (I mentioned ratios, and yes it's CD's but it's also older games I'm refering to. Newer games take more space). They always have and always will!
The future will show You that :)

What is wrong with more FMV content??? If it makes a game more exiciting and enjoyable that's what we need:)

And since evolution also moves forward in Japan I expect SONY will put a nice system on those PS3's

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RE: Stupid

By Xavian on 6/1/2006 6:47:41 AM , Rating: 2

whats wrong is that, FMV's cost a lot of money to make, and with HD level graphics (especially coding for some 7 cores with Cell) also cost a lot of money, development studios and publishers will scale back on FMV's as games get more expensive to make, in order to retain a decent profit margin. I wouldn't be surprised if FF XIII contains much less FMV's then FF VII onwards.

And since FMV's will be made less and cutscenes relying on the in-game engine, the size required on discs will reduce, this is why ill find it hard to believe that games will take up more then 5GB, especially with decent compression.

What has evolution got to do with Japan? in a recent poll in Japan (Famitsu Magazine), some 70% in Japan said they would buy the Wii, compared to the much smaller amount of 20% who would buy the PS3 (and ofcourse 5% for the Xbox 360 but thats a non-factor in Japan). Japanese are technology-crazy, but if the price is too high, they... like every other country in the world, wont buy it.

Then you could go into the difference in quality between DVD and the HD formats and how its no-where near the jump from VHS to DVD was. I predict by the end of this very generation, Sony will have lost its brand value, nintendo will be back up on high (1st in Japan, possibly 1st/2nd in Europe and US), with Microsoft taking second place (2nd everywhere except Japan).

The sheer arrogance from Sony reminds me of Nintendo and N64 and we all know what happened to them ;)

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RE: Stupid

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 5:31:56 PM , Rating: 2

Since the Wii doesn't deliver anymore than what even a cheap PC is capable of (aside from the controller, which anyone whit a little electrical skill could make) I'd take a PC over that, but the Power of PS3 IF used right, outshines ANY PC I know of at least when it comes to calculations.

If the graphics is really up to that, the release will tell, but some of the current stuff on ign.com shows me that at least the level of 360 is reached at release time. Considering that the first games for PS2 compared to now is two different worlds, I'll consider that the same thing will be true for PS3.

And considering that all my GPUs at home are ATI over nVidia I should be bashing the PS3 and BR to the land of junk - but don't :)

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RE: Stupid

By bpurkapi on 5/31/2006 2:54:17 PM , Rating: 2

Sony from the looks of it is helping the consumer by giving them options, if blu-ray wins then you get both a player and game machine, if it doesn't then you get a system that is much like the gamecube with its own type of disc, not standard DVD's. Either way you can't really say it hurts the consumer, it is our choice whether to buy it or not...
I look at the microsoft comments on the PS3 and take them as fear, mostly because the PS3 is what Microsoft really wanted to release but couldn't do it in time, so like any politician who knows they are a long shot they are going to try and assisinate any good things about their opponent and frame the issue to their advantage. Interesting stuff going on right now.

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RE: Stupid

By Hare on 5/31/2006 3:17:42 PM , Rating: 2

Of course it hurts the consumer because bluray costs and it costs alot. The consumer has two choices. Buy the PS3 or don't. With MS it's buy the console, buy it and a separate hd-drive or don't buy anything. Sony is definately not helping consumers...

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RE: Stupid

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 11:52:51 PM , Rating: 2

I already see the pic now: XBox360 owner - a lot of cables and boxes to stash up and clutter and look at (don't say the 360 is beutifull - it ain't!)

I alrady imagine someone asking: "Oh, You have two DVD drives on the 360. Can You copy some, then?"

"No", I say.

"Why does it have two drives then?"

"Well, You see, there was this release date, and the other drive wasn't......"

LOL :)

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RE: Stupid

By Strunf on 5/31/2006 3:18:21 PM , Rating: 2

Exactly what I was thinking... besides SONY did the same with the PS that was using CD-Rom where the competition was using cartridges, then with the PS2 they used DVDs where the competition used CDs, seems very logical that the PS3 would use Blu-Ray, maybe MS wanted that SONY released a PS3 with a CD-Rom by the time the Xbox360 already has the HD-DVD capability…

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RE: Stupid

By jrjr on 5/31/2006 8:46:35 PM , Rating: 2

What MS is saying?? If HD DVD was ready at release of X-Box 360, probable was on it.

I'll get PS3 for sure!! Im really tired of this

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LASH OUT!!!

By proamerica on 5/31/2006 6:42:52 PM , Rating: 2

"Lash out", "lashes out", "lashed out", these terms seem to be the internets favorite new catch phrases for describing the variety of disputes and battles between various huge companies.

I think most people are tired of Sony. They would have been in shitloads more trouble over the past decade if it hadn't been for the playstation. They've been getting their asses handed to them in the realm of consumer electronics. Its only a matter of time before their relentless pursuit of proprietary storage formats, and batteries, finally destroys them.

Bill IS scared!

By Scalptrash on 5/31/2006 7:26:38 PM , Rating: 2

The initial retail availability of the PS3 will determine how successful it is and, in turn, Blu-Ray.

If they have shortages, like every other console to ever hit the market, the PS3 could bomb. At least compared to the PS2. Sony isn't stupid, they are using the PS3 to promote their format.

If they get half of the sales of the PS2 within the first three years of production, it will still surpass HD-DVD unit sales. Think of it as getting a state of the art video game console with a free next gen DVD player built in. The least expensive HD-DVD player is $500 and all it does is play movies.
MS is scared and they are giving away free publicity just by talking about it. I bet the home office isn't too pleased with these comments.
Also, all but one major movie studio has signed on for Blu-Ray.

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RE: Bill IS scared!

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 8:09:11 PM , Rating: 2

At least compared to the PS2. Sony isn't stupid, they are using the PS3 to promote their format.

Their format ? Wrong .. DVD was already established for 2 yrs when PS2 came out and there was NO competition. Everyone had agreed on that format. Neither of these standards is established but one is already out and cheaper.. and the avg american will go for the price alone. The 5 million who buy the more exspensive BLuray will be eclipsed by the 100 million who buy the already much cheaper HD-DVD. Blu ray price will liley cost more longer because it simply cost more to manufacture.

Bill doesnt give a shit.. IF MS bombs today much of his money isn't in stocks.. MS puts more 'real money' in a savings account then most companies have assets on paper

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RE: Bill IS scared!

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 8:34:14 PM , Rating: 2

And that is why a lot of customers also consider getting BOTH a future format and a game console at the same time for Max. $600

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You could still..

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 9:06:12 PM , Rating: 2

get a Xbox 360 for 299 and HD-DVD addon for cheaper..
not alot.. but the point is.. some people dont care about HD-DVD or Bluray..

Also.. for both systems.. PS3 or Xbox 360.. they are only players.. not recorders.. People act like this is some awesome price.. it can play bluray.. but they wont be able to record.. and thats what people should want.. They'll still have to go buy an 1000 blu ray recorder..

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RE: You could still..

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 11:18:07 PM , Rating: 2

In half a year a BlueRay Recorder might cost less :)
But my point is that I think SONY's got the more futureproof format, sizewise.

Price - only time will tell, but I don't think SONY is utterly stupid putting in a drive that is not used for something :)

And since CBS/Colombi/Universal are all SONY's, they'll probably push hard this time...

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Re:

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 11:29:28 PM , Rating: 2

Considering the life of tecnologies nothing is futureproof.
Everyone said that about DVD.

The problem is Timing at this point.

By the time the storage capacity really matters to any siginificant number of consumers.. the life of PS3 will be near its lifecycles end. Cable networks in the USA won't be switching to high def for another 3yrs.. I live in the capital of my state.. i have 7 HD channels and most people dont want to pay for them, let alone own an HD Tv.

In Europe, HD is nearly non existant compared to the USA... and Bluray was designed for recording High Def TV in mind. otherwise it has no difference to HD-DVD in formats

Also.. Toshiba has a 50 or 60 gig HD DVD they will put out.. 3 layers.. and space will increase on both.

I think by the time 2010 comes around there will be a better technology then either bluray or HD DVD ready to take over for REAL.. a time I mean when there really is a strong need for more.. right now is not that time.. give it 5 more yrs..

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RE: Re:

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 4:51:47 PM , Rating: 2

But people will still be forced to buy players for movies they rent or buy. I don't think it's economic fesable to make both normal and HD DVDs/BlueRays.

Which format wins I don't care so much about, I'll think there will be space for both, but personally I'll pick BR for the capacity, when that time comes (Recorders @ $300) - unless HD-DVD proves better for backup purposes. Using a harddisk as backup is possible and cheper (at the moment anyway), but given the fact that a harddisc is assembled with a lot of parts, also more could happen with that backup medium. A single plastic disc stored away in the shelf in a dark place WILL last for +25 years (if that would be needed...) and consumes a LOT less production cost - also environmentally, which for me is an important factor. Even over price sometimes.

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RE: Re:

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 4:59:19 PM , Rating: 2

futureproof was a wrong word to use, nothing is futureproof. What I meant was more fit for the future.

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RE: Re:

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 11:17:10 PM , Rating: 2

I'll hate to correct myself, but there is ONE thing in the world that's futureproof...

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RE: LASH OUT!!!

By Xavian on 5/31/2006 7:37:55 PM , Rating: 2

Problem is, Sony has a lot of competitors in every market, they are losing a tonne of money quarter after quarter, the PS3 is going to be sold at a mega loss, making more losses, only Blu-ray can pull them out of the gutter this time around (where as before PS2 was a very nice side-profit) its amazing how things change so quickly.

They deserve to crash and burn and finally (like nintendo did) see that sheer arrogance and imitation is not the way you are gonna win the market over.

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RE: LASH OUT!!!

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 8:41:02 PM , Rating: 2

For the sole purpose of awoiding that stupid layer change glitch I'd go with ANY format that gives me a whole movie - undesturbed of some enginerring "genious", that couldn't even put in a buffer to cater for that layer change.

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RE: LASH OUT!!!

By Xavian on 6/1/2006 7:00:10 AM , Rating: 2

what precisely are you talking about?

Its very clear Clauzii you are a fierce blue-ray supporter, for no real reason. Blu-ray has Considerable DRM technologies (yes HD-DVD has AACS) it has AACS, Rom-Mark and BD+ DRM, that quite frankly scares the hell out of me. Sony is the sole licencer of all Blu-ray technology, regardless of other companies helping with the format. Every Blu-Ray disc that is sold, Sony gets 80% while the other companies get 20% of licence profits.

Personally, im a light HD-DVD supporter, because a lesser DRM'd format is the way to go (i'd rather have a no DRM format so i could play ****MY**** movies where the hell i want).

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RE: LASH OUT!!!

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 5:07:53 PM , Rating: 2

I'm a supporter of BR because it's in the PS3 which I will get. Also because of capacity (in the lab @ 200GB per disc), and because of the fact that NONE of the prices mentioned in this thread will be a reality in a years time or so. I'm also a little supporter for HD-DVD for the sheer competition which is needed to have things going forward.

Regarding Your question, I'm talking about the ~1 sec. pause in the middle of some movies on DVD, when the layer is changed. Not many players take care of that.

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RE: LASH OUT!!!

By Alexvrb on 6/1/2006 11:06:34 PM , Rating: 2

(Pretending this wasn't terribly obvious to begin with)

Aha! So now we get to the heart of the matter, straight from the horses mouth so to speak. You're an avid Sony fanboy, and so that's where your love for Blu-ray comes from. Well, that explains all of your posts well enough.

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RE: LASH OUT!!!

By Clauzii on 6/2/2006 12:03:41 AM , Rating: 2

Back in 1999 a DVD-Recorder (that we used in a DVD authoring machine for B&O - and in todays money) would've set You back ~6000. Today, or rather very soon, BR (Which by the way are the name of a toyshop chain here in DK :), will cost a sixth but have at least 5 times the capacity.

And I also (through the same little computer company I worked for back then, that serviced B&O) happened to meet an american guy called Jack from VideoLogic, DK, a company that worked with Matrox, *edit etc - AND (funny You should mention them) AVID. He, and a british video editing guy (that was working for some british sports tv station, doing realtime live editing of league matches. (U know Manchester U, all them fights.)

At a seminar at VideoLogic both Jack and the english dude (I'll tell U, I've never seen a guy that fast with a editing board =:o ), were talking about storage need and the like for AVID systems and such. They said that EVEN DVD was not enough for the next 4-5 years to come, considering backups for TV & Radio stations, and program material. Even though tapes are nice, capacity vice, the access time is something to be desired.

They talked about this while demonstrating a 800GB editing system build with 12 73GB SCSI drives - tripled for redundance......

For them BR should have been out yesterday :)

Does all this make me a fanboy of some sort (besides ATI that is :)??

No. But these two guys opened my eyes to a world of future High Quality content that will INDEED need more than even DVD-9. Period. :)

And I will say it again: I will buy a PS3 when it comes out, so I'd better live with the "damn" BlueRay tingy :)

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BluRay is heavy favorite

By BenSkywalker on 6/1/2006 3:58:28 PM , Rating: 1

Betamax versus VHS

Sony and a small group of studios versus Matsushita and a large group of studios

BluRay versus HD-DVD

Sony and Matsushita and all but one studio versus tier two electronics companies and a small group of studios

Games and storage space- MegaTexturing runs 500MBs per texture. They utilize one texture per stage- more then 14 levels means DVD9 is too small just when looking at texturing(Carmack). Forget FMV, game code and every other asset in the game- just the textures will be too large. As of now, the 360 is looking at an upcoming title that will span three DVD9 disks. Mark Rein(Epic) has also come out stating that a larger storage medium is needed. Next gen media is needed now, not in the future.

For all those finding it unnecessary due to lack of HDTV- the installed base in the US alone is closing in on 50 million households. If you don't have one that is fine- there are a LOT of us that do and we do want HD movies. Anyone who has watched a good HD feed on digital cable and then watched the DVD back to back will be able to tell you without problem that the difference is easily noticeable.

Right now, we need a next gen format- BluRay appears to have pretty much everything going for it. For the record- I said the same thing about VHS back in the early '80s. When VHS was going against the superior Betamax and the vastly superior LaserDisc standard. This time, the superior format has every market element covered including the killer trojan horse.

RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 5:16:46 PM , Rating: 2

....Yep! :)

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By RyanLM on 6/1/2006 5:53:06 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
Games and storage space- MegaTexturing runs 500MBs per texture. They utilize one texture per stage- more then 14 levels means DVD9 is too small just when looking at texturing(Carmack).

In this same article he talked about using it with the Xbox, however the 500MB number is off for both the consoles for a bunch of reasons, 1 All ram is used and 2 load times would be terrible. Infact, with the way the memory is split in the PS3 its not even possible. You may see this with many PC games in the future, but in the console space its just silly. BTW - How does the read performance of PS3's BR player compare to the 360's DVD?

Just what is this Upcoming title? At first everyone thought it was Oblivion, but that magically fit on 1 DVD, and didnt use it all either. I smell a RPG with FMV!!

quote:
For all those finding it unnecessary due to lack of HDTV- the installed base in the US alone is closing in on 50 million households. If you don't have one that is fine- there are a LOT of us that do and we do want HD movies. Anyone who has watched a good HD feed on digital cable and then watched the DVD back to back will be able to tell you without problem that the difference is easily noticeable.

You DONT need a BR or HDDVD to fit a feature with awesome quality!!
You DONT need a BR or HDDVD to fit a feature with awesome quality!!
You DONT need a BR or HDDVD to fit a feature with awesome quality!!

A feature would fit on a DVD-9. This whole next gen argument is just silly.

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By BenSkywalker on 6/1/2006 7:31:59 PM , Rating: 1

MegaTexturing on consoles- GT4 for the PS2 has 34MB of just vertice data for the Nurburgring track. That is just geometric data- not including any textures at all, no car data, no game code, no AI scripts or physics code- just raw geometric data. The PS2 has less then that in total system RAM. Pointing this out to put things in a proper perspective- you can stream off of media very easily when working with a fixed hardware platform. MegaTexturing is already in the works for use on consoles right now- it is going to happen. Not only is it absolutely possible, it is being done. The PS3's split RAM pool has next to no impact, both Cell and RSX have full access to both pools of RAM at will. Either can grab as much total system RAM as the devs want- and they can stream them together to overcome bandwidth hurdles too.

In terms of read performance the BR drive in the PS3 is comparable to the 360's, slightly higher peak rate with a bit lower overall(CAV).

The upcoming title is from a Japanese company, it is a RPG and it does use FMV. So what? DVD9 has failed- period. It isn't large enough.

quote:
You DONT need a BR or HDDVD to fit a feature with awesome quality!!

You do if you don't want horrible compression artifacts. You talk as if we all haven't seen the other compression codecs that are circulating around. We have. Try watching them on a 60" 1080p display and take a look at their errr "quality". It is one thing to watch them on some tiny little PC monitor which overwhelmingly today is of very low quality- it is quite another to put it to the test on a display that can demonstrate everyone of its horrific flaws. MPEG2 is pretty bad as it is, the more agressive codecs are a lot worse.

quote:
A feature would fit on a DVD-9. This whole next gen argument is just silly.
quote:

Unless you want to move to a super low quality codec then it doesn't fit on DVD9. You are most certainly correct that this next gen media argument is silly- it is over and all of those in opposition to progress have lost.

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 11:12:33 PM , Rating: 2

Nailed!

I'm running out of golden hammers but heres one for U too :)

Can the 360 do this with DVD/HD-DVD to? And as good?

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By RyanLM on 6/2/2006 10:41:48 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
MegaTexturing on consoles- GT4 for the PS2 has 34MB of just vertice data for the Nurburgring track. That is just geometric data- not including any textures at all, no car data, no game code, no AI scripts or physics code- just raw geometric data. The PS2 has less then that in total system RAM. Pointing this out to put things in a proper perspective- you can stream off of media very easily when working with a fixed hardware platform. MegaTexturing is already in the works for use on consoles right now- it is going to happen. Not only is it absolutely possible, it is being done. The PS3's split RAM pool has next to no impact, both Cell and RSX have full access to both pools of RAM at will. Either can grab as much total system RAM as the devs want- and they can stream them together to overcome bandwidth hurdles too.

I always love to hear this concept of streaming. Oh, just stream it, as if it is the best way to do things... I wasnt aruging that you couldnt do MegaTexturing on consoles, I was arguing that it would NOT be a 500 meg texture. Hell, you get a clear open view ala Halo 3, you need to sample that whole 500 MB texture to render a whole frame - NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Unless this magic BR drive reads a few gigs a second.

It is also silly to point out one things and say "it failed". Lets see, we have it "might" have trouble with MegaTexturing, which we are compeletly leaving out the concept of compression, and Japanesse RPGs might require you to get up off you butt and switch a DVD. OMG, I want to spend $200 more to prevent this terrible nightmare...

quote:
You do if you don't want horrible compression artifacts. You talk as if we all haven't seen the other compression codecs that are circulating around. We have. Try watching them on a 60" 1080p display and take a look at their errr "quality". It is one thing to watch them on some tiny little PC monitor which overwhelmingly today is of very low quality- it is quite another to put it to the test on a display that can demonstrate everyone of its horrific flaws. MPEG2 is pretty bad as it is, the more agressive codecs are a lot worse.

THERE ARE NO ARTIFACTS!!!!!!!
THERE ARE NO ARTIFACTS!!!!!!!
THERE ARE NO ARTIFACTS!!!!!!!

I have a massive home theater in my basement with front projection, also a 61'' 1080P Sammy DLP, and I am typing this on a Apple 30'' HD Cinema display with a res of 2560x1600 - a 10 Mbit encoded WM9 video is basically flawless at 1080P on all of these dislays. MPEG4 is an IMPROVEMENT on MPEG2. T2 is an amazing watch in HD which magically was released on normal DVDs.

Sony thanks you for funding their gamble, and believing in it so much.

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By Blackraven on 6/2/2006 11:25:01 AM , Rating: 2

[quote]switch a DVD[/quote]

Hell, no way I'm falling for that disc-swapping crap.

And that's basically one thing as to why I'm keen on the next gen optical formats for 2007.

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By RyanLM on 6/2/2006 5:13:46 PM , Rating: 2

Wow, you must be huge.

Seriously - if and when there are games that span more than one disc, 99% will not have that problem. So your saying:

1) You are willing to pay $200+ more
2) You are willing to wait an extra year to make sure this is ready. You could be playing games right now if it weren't for blu ray. This will be the first time in history a system has come out a year after its competition and performance wise its identical. But!! It has this new disc with great marketing!

For what, a couple games that might make you switch a disc 10 days into game play?

Yikes.

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By BenSkywalker on 6/3/2006 12:13:07 AM , Rating: 1

Where to start....

Samsung makes big DLP TVs for very, very cheap. You get what you pay for. Find any review pitting one against say a SXRD or up against a Qualia. I have a Samsung HDTV sitting in my bedroom- mainly because it was cheap and I didn't want to drop $5K on a bedroom display- but let's be realistic about where they are in terms of quality.

Apple's Cinema Display is absolutely horrific for judging artifacts on. The two areas where artifacting is the most severe- low light situations and fast movement- that display can't handle anyway. Check it out side by side with something like a Mitsu 2070 and see how bad it is(I did- it isn't close).

T2:Extreme Edition- I bought this the day it came out, it is one of the things I use to show people how badly artifacts impact image quality using higher compression levels. Try it out on a quality display.

MegaTexturing- where exactly can you see an entire level first off- second off are you familiar with mip mapping? It has been in common use in games now for a decade and it changes RAM requirements rather heavily.

There are games that are already taking up three DVD9s and they aren't finished yet. John Carmack talks about how much storage space we are going to need- you ignore him. Mark Rein talks about DVD9s not being enough- you ignore him. The two biggest dev houses for American FPSs have taken a stand on the issue and yet it is somehow only going to be a Japanese RPG thing.... sure. Keep telling yourself that.

The price difference is $100, not $200. If you want a tiny HD- the exact same size as the one in the 360, then the PS3 is only $500.

DreamCast had a rasterizer that was vastly superior to the PS2's, and that came out a year earlier. The PS2 had a significantly more powerful processor though. I wouldn't wager on the 360 being equal just yet with the PS3.

Also- disk swapping once every ten days may apply if you are talking about a hyper linear title- what about a completely open ended game? How is that going to work? Swap disks every ten minutes? Sound good to you? The developers have spoken- they want greater capacity then DVD9. The electronics industry has spoken- they want greater capacity then DVD9. The movie industry has spoken- they want greater capacity then DVD9.

You must realize you are not debating this point with us. Do you really think that people want to go out and buy another piece of hardware if there is no use for it? The fact is that almost everyone that is in a position to matter says the switch is needed- versus you.

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RE: BluRay is heavy favorite

By RyanLM on 6/3/2006 2:37:06 PM , Rating: 2

Ask Google :

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Samsung+1080P...

One of the best places to find and real reviews is the AVS Forum. The people on the forum that have seen both tend to agree that Qaulia is NOT worth the exta 5 grand.

Also, the only complaints they tend to have is that they Sammy's tend to be sharper, which would show artifacting MORE not less. Please, get a clue.

Your comments on the apple display are complete BS. You should tell that to the thousands of professionals that use this display day after day for video production. Have you even seen the specs on this thing? It has TWICE the resolution of a 1080P screen, and being an LCD is completely unforgiving when it comes to digital artifacts and noise. 400cd/m2, 700:1 contrast, 14ms response time. Yeah, it wont show artifacts....

T2 - Nothing wrong with it, stop lying.

"where exactly can you see an entire level first off"
Go watch the in game demo from E3.

mip mapping - it has nothing to do with my arguement. My arguement is that you are NOT loading a 500 MB texture in any of these consoles. You still need access to all the data if you are sampling it, and this is NOT coming from the DVD. When the effect is used, it will be with a MUCH smaller texture, or at least one using serious compression. MegaTexturing in no way shape or form demands BR when console's ram is the limiting factor.

"There are games that are already taking up three DVD9s and they aren't finished yet."

Which are? I heard FFXIII which gets its bulk from FMV. I havent heard of anything else.

"John Carmack talks about how much storage space we are going to need- you ignore him."

Yes in 3-5 years. There will be a new Xbox buy then.

"Keep telling yourself that."

Just waiting for real world facts, not theory. The next question you need to be asking, is a 20GB game practical for a today's consoles? I am talking 20 GB of actual textures and data, not 18GB of video. Are you ready for 10 mintue load times? This does have to come off a very slow drive remember, you have a 512 Meg limit on what the memory will hold, your not storing texture data on the HD that is for sure.

My point here is that all this talk about storage is going to be lost on a console with a relativley small memory capacity. Your not going to have a level with even 300 meg of texture data loaded at one time. Let alone gigs and gigs. This may happen in the PC space where you have much more ram, but not on the console.

Also, lets not forget Games today are much shorter than they used to be, however it isnt because of storage limitaion - it is due to rising cost of development - mainly on graphic investments. Ever notice that games that play for weeks look worse than games that play for days? The problem isnt Storage space is a resource / money issue.

"The price difference is $100, not $200."

My Xbox cost me $399, the only PS3 option is the $599 if you plan to own a good tv. That is a $200 difference. Sure, the PS3 has some extra items, but they dont actually help the games at all. Lets also not forget that there is a YEAR between releases, PS3 is going to be using year old technology for most of the system. When the PS3 actually releases, the Xbox will cost even less. So, either Sony is overcharging for year old graphic hardware, or they are charging you for the BR drive. You pick.

"DreamCast had a rasterizer that was vastly superior to the PS2's, and that came out a year earlier. The PS2 had a significantly more powerful processor though. I wouldn't wager on the 360 being equal just yet with the PS3. "

If I were to wager anything, I would say the Xbox will prove to be more powerful, most likely do to how much more efficient and easier to program for it is. You cant compare the PS2 to the PS3 in how they process data. They are using a PC part for the GPU. And that GPU isnt that amazing for coming out a year later.

"Also- disk swapping once every ten days may apply if you are talking about a hyper linear title- what about a completely open ended game? How is that going to work? Swap disks every ten minutes? Sound good to you?"

Open ended games never have the graphic needs that high to require it. All open ended, long games in general look worse - not because of storage, because of development resources. A game like Oblivion doesnt even use the whole damn DVD.

"The electronics industry has spoken- they want greater capacity then DVD9."

They want pawns like you to buy something. They are creating a false need to sell you another upgrade.

"The movie industry has spoken- they want greater capacity then DVD9. "

They want pawns like you to buy your movie collection over again. And also better copy protection to prevent fair use. (well, at least on the BR side)

You are ARGUING against your own self intrest fool.

"The fact is that almost everyone that is in a position to matter says the switch is needed- versus you. "

The most vocal people are the manufactures, not the developers. These people simply want your money. Yours they will get.

A new media format is NOT needed, a new distribution system is, several are in the works. While movie studios are supporting these new formats, they certainly arnt rushing toward them. They care more about the copy protection than any quality enhancment, and like less the extreme cost of the media.

In the next several years, we will see true movie downloads, several we will see the release in the Theater and in general distribution at the same time. Parts have already happend with DVDs.

This is a win for consumers as the price will come down (already has for current download services, and music services), and Consumers have an added convienence. We also are not forced to buy into hardware solutions every few years. Also, it will allow for more independent content. Studios have a HUGE reduction in distrubution costs and development.

Thats the future bub. But go ahead give Sony your money.

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Next Gene DVD war is for nothing !!!

By Boushh on 5/31/2006 3:14:13 PM , Rating: 2

History shows that updates of audio/video formats never have the same impact as the original.

Big impact; LP -> CD and VHS -> DVD

Almost no impact: CD -> SACD, VHS -> SVHS

As long as most people are very happy listing to 128kb MP3's and TC/CAM or too 1-layer riped DVD's Joe Average will have little to no intrest in High Definition DVD's. Execpt for those who care, but that will just be a smaal market.

However, I think that SONY has the edge if it can sell enough PS3's. That will at least put the players in the consumers living room. While an additional add on for the Xbox is much less likely to be soled IMO.

RE: Next Gene DVD war is for nothing !!!

By Strunf on 5/31/2006 3:24:56 PM , Rating: 2

True... I only cheer for Blu-ray cause of its 50GB, I need something of that size cause burning 100 DVDs when I do a backup its kinda long.

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RE: Next Gene DVD war is for nothing !!!

By 9nails on 5/31/2006 4:05:35 PM , Rating: 2

You would still need to buy 18 Blu-Ray 50 DL disc's to burn 100 DVD 9 DL discs.

Unfortunatly, the PS3 will not write to BD-DVD's. You're stuck paying the high cost of a simple reader.

And the only writeable BD-RE's that I can find are single sided 25 GB disc's which sell for $25 each.

DVD's x 100 = .9 TB Storage. (Cost $190)
BD-DVD x 36 = .9 TB Storage. (Cost $900)

You can do better than Blu-Ray right now. If you need removable storage, use an LTO cartrigde. Or if removing the media isn't necessary, use a disk array - far better price to storage ratios there.

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RE: Next Gene DVD war is for nothing !!!

By Visual on 5/31/2006 6:05:36 PM , Rating: 2

you're calculating duallayered DVDs - at a price that is atleast 8 times higher than normal 4.5gb DVDs - why? obviously you realise that its worth it having to deal with just 100 discs instead of 200. well, for some people it will be worth it to have just 20 too. maybe just 5 with the eventual 8 layered media, but thats still way into the future to consider (though having HDDVD win early on completely cancels that potential, so i hope it doesn't happen).
also, the DL-DVDs (if you go that way anyway) will be writeonce, and you need a new set for the next backup. from the looks of it there will never be a RW DL normal DVD spec. 50gb BD-RE will be available before the year's end, and even if they cost more, they are reusable.

as to the other alternatives that you mentioned, they have their drawbacks too.
tape backups are good at just that - backups, but are slow and inconvenient for random-access reading, and pretty much completely unusable for random-access writing, unlike a BD with packet-writing. devices and media are still pretty expencive - though there are so many options out there and i know almost nothing of them to be absolutely sure, it seems that the cheaper devices work with common capacities of a couple GB to tens of GB so don't get cheaper than BD, and the more economical capacities (above 200gb) require expencive devices. tapes also tend to quickly lose quality and easily get unreliable if not stored and handled properly.
harddisks are indeed a good alternative. faster and easier to use than optical media too. its only drawback i see is that it isn't quite as mobile - you can ofcourse have a few external drives, but they are still heavier and bulkier than the BD option, and much more picky to the way you handle them. they are relatively cheap, so currently they seem the best choice. they aren't the absolute cheapest though - i.e. RW DVDs are already cheaper than harddiscs, and if it weren't for the inconveniently large number of discs that you'd need they could be prefferable. That's what BD can solve - ofcourse BD is far from being as cheap now, but prices will surely go down. Optical media has the potential to be quite cheaper than HDDs of comparable capacity, there's no doubt about that.

well, i figure that was the whole point - noone claims that bluray is automatically a better solution than what exists today, we're just hoping that soon it'll become one. one year after the first $1000 BD drives we're likely to have sub-$300 ones already, media to have become cheaper too, and it'll certainly be a good thing.
here's to hoping, atleast.

and something a bit offtopic: i'm sure one day we'll finally replace all magnetic storage (even for our primary storage) with optical media of some sort - though that will clearly not be BD, atleast BD is more of a progress in the right direction than HDDVD.

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RE: Next Gene DVD war is for nothing !!!

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 8:27:59 PM , Rating: 2

"we're just hoping that soon it'll become one. one year after the first $1000 BD drives we're likely to have sub-$300 ones already"

One year huh? Maybe in a perfect world. Look at plasma tv's.. they've been out for 4yrs with little drop in price for the avg consumer who really controls who makes money.

I think in one year Blu ray player/recorders - could be 500-700.. as far as 300.. if they suceed.. maybe 3 yrs..

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RE: Next Gene DVD war is for nothing !!!

By Strunf on 5/31/2006 7:09:52 PM , Rating: 2

I dont care about the PS3, I only care about the Blu-Ray and I'm not crazy enough to switch now, but the sooner the blu-ray comes out the sooner the prices will start to drop and so on.

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Hahaha 50 gigs..

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 7:46:23 PM , Rating: 2

Cuz you need 50 gigs huh?

Most of the world has no need or use to record 50 gigs.
By the way the 50gig Blu Ray disc is 45 dollars for that one disc..

Both technologies are immature and price will be a big factor. I work in the medical field. I know 2 doctors that I work with closely who don't even own HD Tv's ( like I do ) .. and really dont care.. ALot of people won't care for another 3 or 4 yrs.. if that..

People will likely go witht he cheaper technology..
And back to the 50 gigs.. Toshiba already has a HD-DVD disc that will do 50 to 60 gigs.. its 3 layers..

All in all.. MS has no plans to include HD-DVD in their Xbox 360.. so they arent jealous.. unlike Sony ( Whom OWNS BLU-RAY AND INVENTED IT ) .. they ( MICROSOFT ) DOESN'T OWN ( NOR DID THEY INVENT ) HD-DVD.. They might rather eat crow.. but in 3 yrs if HD-DVD bombs they could lisc Blu-ray as an add on player for a lisc fee like anyone using Blu ray technology.. With BLu ray built into PS3.. if it fails... I think the opposite isn't as likely to happen

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RE: Hahaha 50 gigs..

By Visual on 6/1/2006 3:09:54 PM , Rating: 2

the 3 layer HDDVD is 45gb. and no, toshiba doesnt already have it - not in any different sense than TDK has 200gb discs atleast. they've made a prototype and thats about it. its not even part of the specs - and currently released players wont be able to read it if it were standartized later. from what i heared, toshiba actually prefer dualsided 2-layer per side discs instead of working on these 3-layer specs. a 3-layered HDDVD takes up more than half the disc depth, so dualsided discs won't be an option with it.

also, you are free to not care about the larger capacity of BD, and to know howevermany doctors you wish that also don't care about it, but there are people that care, want or even need the capacity of BD. so forgive me for wanting it to work out.

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Silly

By RyanLM on 5/31/2006 8:10:43 PM , Rating: 2

Lets be honest here, it is a stupid idea to include an expensive player in something for playing games,

1) There is a good change Blu Ray as a whole, and HD DVD will go no where, They are NOT needed, or at least will not be in the near future - why the hell are we still bying a disc with a movie on it? The future is downloaded content, to a PC or Media Center of some sort. Read up on Vista and content delivery support for instance with Media Center. HD DVD may win, Blu Ray may win, in either case you just spent $200 for Sony's gamble.

2) We are funding Sony in their venture to make money on Blu Ray - period. It is about as useful to gaming as it slapped into a microwave. Ohh! Blu Ray Games!!! OMG - Welcome crap FMV... The biggest and longest games, mind you the interactive ones, not a collection of FMVs, can usually fit on a CD or 2, a single layer DVD is more than fine. GTA and Oblivion come to mind. Look at Facts, not FUD.

Also, if some games does come out that requires you to get up off your butt and change to a second DVD and you would rather pay $200+ to solve this "problem" - Jesus - you need to go for a walk or something...

3) Lets also not forget that the DVD player built into the PS2 SUCKS (much like most of sony's DVD players). Lets not forget the DVD player in the XBOXs Suck as well. People who are really going to be into Blu Ray/HDDVD are not going to buy the PS3 to watch movies on, they will buy just about any other product as it will have better quality.

RE: Silly

By Clauzii on 5/31/2006 11:20:33 PM , Rating: 2

I WILL use it for watching movies :)
Why not?

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RE: Silly

By TheDoc9 on 6/1/2006 11:41:16 AM , Rating: 2

"They are NOT needed, or at least will not be in the near future - why the hell are we still bying a disc with a movie on it? The future is downloaded content"

Yeah, if you live in microsofts world. Personally I'd rather own my movies. I know I wouldn't want to chunk all of my dvd's right now for some virtual liscences that 'allow' me to download a movie off a corporate server, so I can watch it, then of course it's removed from your system. In some ways it could be cool, like if your in college and don't have any space in your dorm room or don't want your room mates to steal your stuff. Otherwise, welcome to the land of M$ controll.

Why do people collect baseball cards? Why records? Maybe in 50 yrs when every computer is connected to rediculasly fast networks and everyone has been desensitized to actually owning something. Maybe then downloading your content will be the way to go.

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RE: Silly

By Clauzii on 6/1/2006 5:12:48 PM , Rating: 2

U hit' the nail with that one :)

AND if all content in our homes was downloaded, where would it be stored?

"Wlcome to my new internet house."

"Where are all Your shelfes with DVDs and CDs and books??"

"Come with me!"

At the moment he opened the door to a room where at least a thousand Harddisks made our conversation allmost imposible, It got clear to me that something was wrong. Somewhere....

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RE: Silly

By RyanLM on 6/1/2006 5:34:37 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
Yeah, if you live in microsofts world. Personally I'd rather own my movies.

Granted it will be eaiser in the MS world, however both formats support, hell HD DVD requires "Managed Copy" - content is moving away from Discs and its about time. I am sure other platforms will catchup and have some support for it, either offical or a hack.

It isnt the land of MS control, it is the Studio's.

quote:
Why do people collect baseball cards?

Because they are worth money over time/they are 12.

quote:
Why records?

Dying breed, most dont anymore.

quote:
Maybe in 50 yrs when every computer is connected to rediculasly fast networks and everyone has been desensitized to actually owning something. Maybe then downloading your content will be the way to go.

Why not now? I have a 10 Mbit cable connection, using WMV, XVid, etc - how big would the file be?

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/musi...

Several videos are 1080P and look stunning with no artifacts, the average count is a little under 1MB/Second. So, figure 3.5GB/Hour, or 7 GB for a feature. We can see 2 things here, 1) BluRay & HDDVD are not needed for HD Video, your grandma's DVD will hold a feature length movie, but hey - lets get more consumer money. 2) I could download and watch the movie in real time with a 10 Mbit connection. Hell, say you only had a 7 or a 5, so you have to buffer for 30 minutes.

I could download and store over 100 movies on one harddrive these days. Play on demand from any room in my house, no scratched discs. All of this could be done today with ease.

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RE: Silly

By TheDoc9 on 6/1/2006 7:13:48 PM , Rating: 2

It is certainly possible even today. The question is, do you want it? There are an unlimited number of reasons why I personally don't. Besides issues like the connection going down, or the company going under, I really don't want to be simply 'allowed' to watch a copy of a movie. A copy that could easily be revoked for whatever corporate reasoning.

Yes it would be convieniant to download everything. Is it really a good deal though? I personally like my dvd collection, and there's even some pride taken in it. And I know there's not a person here who can't say their dvd collection isn't in some way a 'definition' of them. Like a baseball card collection, or even a stamp collection. With a stack of your favorite movies there is some pride in that ownership.

No it's not like a car or expensive house. Yes they will certainly go the way of the record in 50 yrs. But it's there, you can touch it, it's something you own, it's real.

The other thing is that I don't see myself making time to watch a movie if I don't see it there(on top of the tv for example). For me, I'd probably forget I was allowed to watch it in the virtual microsoft world. It would just be a list of names.

Now if you could own a physical copy AND have the virtual download....

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Blu-Ray in PS3 is a good idea

By hstewarth on 5/31/2006 3:26:40 PM , Rating: 2

I just recently got a 360, but still plan to get a PS3.

I would have to obmit that intergrated Blu-Ray in the PS3 is good option base on my recent experience with the 360.

With the 360, you have extra power brick and now if you have external HD-DVD drive - this means something extra you have to deal with. It would be much better and cleaner to deal with everything in one spot.

I can understand why the 360, the power is external - the unit itself gets very hot.

As for this story, its mostly marketing attempt to sway people away from PS3. Simple to both Sony's statements about the Wii. I decided that its best to get both 369 and Sony - but Sony will be my primary HD Machine.

RE: Blu-Ray in PS3 is a good idea

By Bonrock on 5/31/2006 4:03:26 PM , Rating: 2

I just recently got a 360, but still plan to get a PS3.

Then I suspect you are in the minority. I highly doubt most consumers are willing to spend $1,000--probably more like $1,500 once you toss in some accessories and games--on video game consoles within the space of one year. I know I sure don't have that kind of money to blow.

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RE: Blu-Ray in PS3 is a good idea

By hstewarth on 5/31/2006 4:55:15 PM , Rating: 2

There is a lot of people that will have more than one console, even Sony and Microsoft are trying to tell users if they are getting more than one console - get Wii instead. But I say not, get the big two instead.

Of course some will have all 3 consoles.. you got to obmit some things are one that are the other. Also remember that PS/3 is in Novemeber, its not like buying them at same time.

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RE: Blu-Ray in PS3 is a good idea

By TheDoc9 on 5/31/2006 6:04:03 PM , Rating: 2

I'll probably have all three myself, personally I see advantages of each, although I'm now most undecided about the wii, since it has a stupid name. The games on the wii don't look that good to me, and if I want to play old games, just emulate them on an HTPC - for free.

really the ps3 isn't that expensive, especially when you compare it to building computers. My last video card cost almost just as much, and that's considered OK to pc enthusiasts.

I guess it's like anything, if you want it you'll find a way to get it.

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money

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 8:52:47 PM , Rating: 2

Yes a minority will have all systems. They are the people in the minority and the people we all know well. Many of them cant pay their bills because they constantly spend money on the things they want instead of the things they really need.

I have a 360.. I only got it because it was a gift.. Im one of the few who also has an HD widescreen.. I may buy the HD-DVD add-on.. so im glad its an option. I make around 40k a year and im single.. I cant imagine being married and having a few kids.. this is the situation and the reality.. SOny has put Ps3 out of the price range of the Avg consumer..

What matter.. Sony sells 5 million 600 dollar PS3's and barely breaks even from software.. ?

Or Microsoft who has already sold 7 million..sells a 299 and 399 version of Xbox360.. the lower cost will enable to let people by it and add ( or not add ) features as they see financially able or otherwise..
Or Nintendo sells 10 million Wi's at no loss.. and make seven more..

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It needs to be done

By kextyn on 5/31/2006 4:16:54 PM , Rating: 2

I'm getting tired of hearing all this "what if it doesn't become the standard" BS. If no one does something like this how will either one become a standard? People will just sit around waiting for one of them to emerge victorious and neither will because nobody will be buying it. The PS3 will put Blu-ray players in the homes of millions of people. So whether it's better or not at least they are doing something to try to win the format war.

You don't have anything to lose buying a PS3 when it comes to HD. If Blu-ray doesn't become the standard you still have a nice game system which has support for Blu-ray games. And it still plays DVD's (I think someone said something about it turning out like the Gamecube which had proprietary discs...NOT the case here.) And if Blu-ray does become the standard guess what? You already have a player for it.

RE: It needs to be done

By Motley on 5/31/2006 5:04:44 PM , Rating: 2

I wonder how long it'll be before Sony is up for an anti-trust trial?

Seems to me to be a fairly clear case, since the Playstation 2 has a majority marketshare, and they are using the money/leverage of that to dominate another market (HD Video players). Not only are they using their marketshare for it, but they are using the sales of console games to subsidize the cost of it of giving them away. Hmm...

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RE: It needs to be done

By thilanliyan on 5/31/2006 5:44:04 PM , Rating: 2

Sony is not the ONLY company in the Blu-Ray bandwagon is it?? How many other companies are releasing BR players?? Pioneer?? LG?? probably more.

There's no way Sony can be brought to an anti-trust case because of Blu-Ray...otherwise all the other companies would also be involved.

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RE: It needs to be done

By TheDoc9 on 5/31/2006 6:23:48 PM , Rating: 2

Blu-ray is a standard, not an actual product like windows or oil. Standards are (typically) a good thing because they keep products easy to develop for since these products are designed with certain hopefully high standards in mind, and they make is easy for consumers.

You want high standards. The only potential blow to blu-ray will be copy-right issues imho.

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I doubt it,,

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 7:53:08 PM , Rating: 2

PS3 sales will be alot less then PS2..
At the time DVD has already been an established standard for 2yrs and had no compeition. They still could put millions of P3 into homes I suppose.. but not as many millions as before. You can also argue that Microsoft who has already sold millions of Xbox 360's will have millions of people go buy the HD-DVD upgrade for 150-199 dollars when it comes out one month before PS3 Launches. The only difference is Xbox people have a choice. They don't have to get it.. I watch movies with my Xbox 360.. but many don't.. and although the opposite is also true.. many that will watch movies on PS3.. there will be those who have no plans to watch it and thefore not buy a PS3 because gaming is their only concern.. no the blu ray player..

P3 cost too much.. and will for sometime. BLuray players will cost more because the technology truly cost more to make.

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It has nothing to do with games

By daschneider on 5/31/2006 3:38:09 PM , Rating: 2

Microsoft's issue with Blu-Ray has nothing to do with game consoles. The Blu-Ray standards body decided not to mandate that Blu-Ray players include Mocrosoft's software stack, opting for a Java based stack instead. Microsoft doesn't want Blu-Ray taking hold because it screws their bid to take over the set-top market the way they took over the desk-top market. That's what Microsoft's worried about.

RE: It has nothing to do with games

By thilanliyan on 5/31/2006 4:15:22 PM , Rating: 2

Didn't know about the software stack thing. THanks for the info.

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RE: It has nothing to do with games

By TomZ on 5/31/2006 4:35:37 PM , Rating: 2

Yeah, I think that the idea of the XBOX 360 needing a Java runtime in order to play Blu-ray discs is not something that Microsoft would be enthused about.

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RE: It has nothing to do with games

By RyanLM on 5/31/2006 7:57:25 PM , Rating: 2

Ick, Java? What a hog, sorta makes me want to skip BR right there. Everything in java tends to suck, be horribly slow, or just ugly.

Java and Multimedia, HAHAHAHA

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MS is bad because...

By mushi799 on 5/31/2006 6:29:18 PM , Rating: 2

they didn't include a hd-dvd in the original 360 forcing themselves to introduce one as an add-on.

Let's be honest, Ps3 is a pretty good deal for what its offered. It would cost a lot more to buy a 360 + HD + HD-DVD drive separately.

Sony is dumb

By ViperROhb34 on 5/31/2006 8:19:23 PM , Rating: 2

mushi799:
"They didn't include a hd-dvd in the original 360 forcing themselves to introduce one as an add-on."

What a comical point of view, considering PS3 doesn't even exist for buyers till November 2006. Some people want a gaming machine. They dont want it to come with BLU RAY .. I watch movies on my Xbox360.. many will not want or care to watch movies on their gaming console.

Last but most important. Most Americans don't have an HD tv.. and most won't go buy one anytime soon !!

It would make more sense if SOny had made a cheaper PS3 without a bluray player ( look - the cheap one doesnt have HDMI anyways ! ) for those who want gaming alone. They've already said games will not be on bluray or HD-DVD media ) .. then a cheap PS3 which more people would've been happier about.. because they dont give a crap about movies.. and then the current higher priced PS3 would've been the other option.. if people have a choice they are soooo much happier..

The avg mom and dad with 5 kids can't go out and buy a 600 dollar gaming unit as easily as they could the 299 PS2 which later when down to 199.. you get the point..

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RE: Sony is dumb

By TheDoc9 on 6/1/2006 11:27:45 AM , Rating: 2

Actually, it's good that all of their systems use blu-ray, because that way they can easily migrate to making games on blu-ray when the're ready, and there won't be a problem. Plus, for those with an HDTV, your getting a new blu-ray player on the cheap, and when other people upgrade to HDTV's, they will already have a blu-ray player.

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Jeez

By Josh7289 on 5/31/2006 4:07:42 PM , Rating: 2

Why do the European execs seem to attack each other so much? Seriously, there's so much bickering over there! Simply attacking a competitor's product does not make one's own product better. *rolls eyes* ^^

Execs

By GotGlint on 5/31/06, Rating: 0

Mircisoft is a biatch

By s12345 on 5/31/06, Rating: 0