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Microsoft drops PC-to-PC Sync from Windows Vista

Microsoft has added another victim to its growing list of dropped features from its long delayed Windows Vista. According to TechWeb Microsoft has dropped PC-to-PC Sync, a feature that allows P2P transfer of files between computers to help keeps those files up to date on multiple computers.

Previously, Microsoft dropped a number of what some consider key features from Windows Vista which include the .NET powered Windows shell codenamed ‘Monad’,  WinFS -- the next generation Windows file system, and as DailyTech reported support for FireWire-B and other features. Many analysts and users are now questioning the actual benefits of Vista. Many of the features that were suppose to make Vista so great are now gone.

All is not lost however. There is an incomplete and potentially inaccurate list of new features listed at Wikipedia.  Among the new features are enhanced security capabilities including User Access Controls (UAC). UAC however may drive some users insane instead of being an effective security measure. Deleting a shortcut without adminstrative privileges may require more than seven steps to complete.

DailyTech reported yesterday that Microsoft made Windows Vista Beta 2 available for download.

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I don't hate microsoft
By IMPoor on 6/8/2006 2:05:46 PM , Rating: 2
I can't wait for Vista. I am looking forward to a change and some new features. I don't automatically hate microsoft like all you. XP was a great release and a huge improvement over win2000. Features being removed from software whiles it in beta/pre-release stages is common with every single software company. I work in the industry and believe me its every software company. The ony thing that you can fault them for with Vista is since its an OS every website is reviewing it and making a big deal about it. So we hear way to much about features being dropped where as with a video game or smaller app you never hear about what is missing cause very few sites are reporting it. I agree it could cost less but since the OS will be around for 5 years it real isn't that bad.




RE: I don't hate microsoft
By TomZ on 6/8/2006 2:12:24 PM , Rating: 3
I agree completely.

I would also add that some of the features of Vista are actually growing in terms of scope. By this I mean that some of the features in Vista are being back-ported to WinXP and Win2003, such as WinFS and WinFX. Other "Vista" features will be available later, because they are not at the proper QC level at this point in time. When they get these features more stable, they'll release them down the road. Because sofware can be updated via the Internet now, it's not such a big deal if a feature misses RTM.

I think folks also fail to realize the scope of the changes in Vista under the hood. Major portions of the OS are being redesigned and rewritten. Microsoft is investing a lot in reliability, security, and quality - Vista is not just about new widgets or a new look and feel. These more deeper changes are what folks have been asking Microsoft for, and criticizing them for lacking, for years. Now that Microsoft is really investing heavily in these areas, now everone complains because it is taking too long or that some low-priority features are being slipped.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By suryad on 6/8/2006 2:14:19 PM , Rating: 2
As a Microsoft OS user, all I can say is damn you guys have been slurping up the Kool-Aid havent you? We will see what the verdict is when Vista comes out. All I can say is that it wont be worth it to upgrade to Vista unless you want the latest and greatest DX 10. I would recommend waiting for Vista R2 which should be Vista done right.....


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By TomZ on 6/8/2006 2:26:58 PM , Rating: 2
Just look at the history:

- Win95 was better than Win3.1
- Win98 was better than Win95
- Win2K was better than Win98
- WinXP was better than Win2K

Any Windows user who has stepped through these upgrades has seen constant improvements in performance, reliability, and functionality. Do you believe there is any chance that Vista would be any different?

You can wait for "Vista R2" if you want, but I frankly don't see the point. Sure, Vista will improve through time, but Vista RTM will also be much better than XP right at the start. So why not upgrade right away instead of continuing to use XP?


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Merglet on 6/8/2006 2:44:00 PM , Rating: 5
I noticed you skipped WinME in your list. Wasn't that better than 98 first? :P

Obviously not every OS they've made has been great out of the box. 95 needed to get to b, 98 to SE, Millenium Edition was a total disaster, Win2k is very good, but limited unless you upgrade to SP4 (NWN wouldn't even install on it until SP4 was installed), and XP while also very good, to get to SP2 in order to fix everything.

I don't *hate* microsoft, but Vista isn't going to be perfect out of the box, and the more features they drop, I agree, the less reasons to upgrade from XP.

Just my thoughts


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Merglet on 6/8/2006 2:46:16 PM , Rating: 2
sorry, meant to type "needed to get to SP2". Where's the "edit post" button?


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By creathir on 6/8/2006 3:47:44 PM , Rating: 2
Me was released at the same time as 2K
It was the "home version" of 2K (still based on the 9X kernel)

Originally, what Microsoft wanted to do with Me and 2K was to do what they finally did with XP, make a single kernel OS. The migration path just did not exist for most users though, so they had to "drop" that plan and focus on a 9X kernel release, to please investors. 2000 was a heck of an operating system, and Me was alright, for its time. (Though it offered no real advantage to 98 SE users)
Time will tell with Vista, though as a Beta tester, I can honestly say I enjoy the environment 100 times more than in XP. It is quick, intuitive, and all around a much cleaner OS. Give it a chance, it is a free download now that Beta 2 is out.
- Creathir


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By PLaYaHaTeD on 6/8/2006 2:48:58 PM , Rating: 2
With one notable exception. Windows 98 SE was more stable, faster, and thus better than Windows ME. I notice you didn't mention ME in your list ;)


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By PLaYaHaTeD on 6/8/2006 2:50:20 PM , Rating: 2
Whoops, looks, like someone got to my point first.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By mrwxyz on 6/8/2006 2:53:22 PM , Rating: 2
you forgot Windows ME.

I'm sure Vista will eventually be better than XP, but it is worth spending money and time installing Vista when it's not a big improvement? Waiting might actually be a good thing, let the intial bugs get ironed out.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Filibuster on 6/8/2006 9:27:59 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks guys.

Thanks for wasting thousands of dollars spent on therapy trying to forget Windows ME.

;)


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By TomZ on 6/8/2006 10:53:43 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, I'll admit that ME was kind of a "branch." But, that release is the exception to the rule that most of their OS releases have been pretty successful.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Merglet on 6/9/2006 12:21:26 AM , Rating: 2
I think my personal strategy will be to see how Vista is taken whenever it's eventually released. I'm not particularly crazy about the extended emphasis on DRM that's included in the box. Frankly, it took me until 2005 until I would dump 2k for XP, so I'm a slow mover. I did love 2k a lot, but it started getting squirrely so I made the jump.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Rampage on 6/8/2006 2:54:28 PM , Rating: 5
Agree 100%.

People forget that a successful PC OS has to be compatible with INSANE hardware combinations..
I dont see anyone else doing that better.. not Apple, not Linux, NO ONE.
Ironic that Windows is the ONLY successful PC OS? ;)

Whats wrong, Apple cant work their "magic" (which consists of marketing only) and outdo the supposedly dull, dimwitted, incompetent "Microsucks"???

What about you badass armchair commander programmers.. cant you beat "pathetic" Microsoft at programming an OS? Whats wrong.. dont you see CLEAR AND OBVIOUS errors, you could do so much better!
Gotta love the armchair CEOs saying MS should charge $50 for their product.

I'd like to stab so many people in the face that hate on Microsoft (even though the continued world domination by MS products is GREAT for the American economy.. but you dont care about that you 10 year old no-nothing twits).


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By KaPolski on 6/8/2006 3:57:03 PM , Rating: 2
Rampage indeed... Good on ya, you tell them!

But MS shouldn't really have touted all those extra features so early in the game, because now they disappoint the 1% of people who care. Imagine a snickers bar but with the peanuts removed... you get.... a mars bar, but then stick a shiny snickers wraper on it and you still get a snickers bar! No one notices appart froma few green peace activists... You still make money! Easy as that!

On the other hand, to be fair, to most people the fact that vista looks new, means it's new, better etc. full stop. Therefore all of the new cranks and shafts inside that run the OS won't even be noticed by most, let alone the uber features that only power users will use.

Oh and think of it this way, unless you're Mother Teresa, you're gonna want to make as much money as you can with whatever you're selling! By the way if you've owned XP for around 4 years it would have cost you around 10 cents a day, with regular updates from MS etc. Damn that is expensive!

Think... I agree with you Rampage (just btw)

If you can do better use something homemade :D


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By evident on 6/8/2006 4:18:30 PM , Rating: 2
god, thank you for someone who agrees with me! MS is not anymore evil than apple or any other corporation out there! Unlike apple, MS has to fulfill all types of backwards compatibility to satisfy their userbase, whereas apple has it real easy in this respect.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Pirks on 6/8/2006 4:22:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
People forget that a successful PC OS has to be compatible with INSANE hardware combinations. Whats wrong, Apple cant work their "magic" (which consists of marketing only) and outdo the supposedly dull, dimwitted, incompetent "Microsucks"???
The Apple magic is just that - cutting INSANE amount of compatible hardware into a smaller manageable subset and capitalizing on that. Sure, Newegg surfing overclockers won't notice that, but there are just a few of them, and there are much more incompetent people who want home computer that just works. Apple targets them, and very successfully - no noob would want administering Windows firewalls and thinking about viruses and hardware upgrades, this is for overclockers/self-assemblers only, and these are minority on the market. Common folks just want a neat and quiet box that one can pop outta the box and start working on it right away. Since Apple controls its subset of quality hardware - it's easier on users, they don't have to worry about anything. It's quiet, small and good looking, and it's a Unix inside so the same stability and speed as NT basically. It's sad most Windows enthusiasts don't see anything but marketing, and don't understand why market share of Macs is growing so fast recently, I've read about jump from 2% to 6% in the US just this year, that's more than impressive for me. It's time to apply some noob-friendly features to Vista (like making some certified subset of hardware with fully automatic installation/driver downloads for it, that'd be a good start) or else... else I see Apple continuing to eat away Windows market share slowly, step by step, just because there are much more noobs than techies and Apple can slowly leverage economy of scale and lower its prices as more people start buying its computers, which in turn leads even more poorer folks to Macs - very dangerous trend for MS, that's why they felt the heat and started jumping around with hurried Vista release - when OS X is around they can't sleep sound anymore, which is GOOD!


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By evident on 6/8/2006 4:36:45 PM , Rating: 2
MS is in a bad situation where they have to support all these manufacturers, can you even imagine it possible that they will only end up supporting 4-6 different HW configs?? How many diff types of add-in hw is there for PC's? all these mobo mfr's w/ diff chipsets, Vid cards, HD's, mem, xyz brand plugin devices, the list goes on... What you say would be really ideal and great, but HOW is that going to happen? MS also has to worry about backwards compatibility, something Apple can throw out the door because apple users must upgrade their entire systems. I agree with what you have to say as well, I hope windows becomes much easier for noobs to get a grasp on. I'm tired of Apple's marketing machine and their spin.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Pirks on 6/8/2006 5:52:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What you say would be really ideal and great, but HOW is that going to happen?
If you think about it, it's such a piece of cake - you'll be stunned when you realize how simply that could be done. First, think about this - what is it majority of noobs want from their new shiny home PCs? Let me tell you what they want - 1) they want their PC to be able to run out of the box with no configuration and other hassle 2) they want it to be reasonably well protected from virii, malware and other bad stuff 3) some of them want to have some limited ability to upgrade their PCs later, instead of throwing the whole machine away and replacing it and 4) they want it to be able to do all the basic home/office tasks out of the box. Second thing to think about - HOW THE HELL IS ALL THE INSANE SELECTION OF NEWEGG HARDWARE RELATED TO THESE FOUR THINGS THE NOOBS WANT? The important answer here (and I mean IMPORTANT so read and think carefully!) is: THERE IS NO, (I MEAN ABSOLUTELY _N_O_N_E_!) connection between the two. Insane selection of Newegg hardware DOES _N_O_T_ HELP NOOBS IN ANY, ANY, _A_N_Y_ WAY! Okay, now, to the third thing. What do you think a PC builder should do to address the four things noobs want? Right, for the antivirii/security there's Vista, which is kind of an answer to OS X, let's count it in. For basic functionality - again there's Vista which will have similar feature set to OS X. Work from the box - okay, so Vista PC can also work from the box PROVIDED that Vista has NO HOLES IN ITS TCP/IP STACK, now this is very important - remember how many pre-SP1 and pre-SP2 WinXP boxes got owned through those network buffer overflow attacks? Remember open port 135? Well, let's consider the case (optimistic one) that MS will iron bugs out and Vista SP1 will be hole free out of the box and maybe even have good integrated firewall ON BY DEFAULT. What's left? Ah, the hardware! The upgradability thing. Here comes the most interesting part - as I said before giving the noob the choice of 100000 Chinese cards on Newegg gives him/her _N_O_T_H_I_N_G_. He/she does not care a tiny bit if there's XFX, SiS, or BFG video in his/her PC, whether there's AMD or Intel inside, or is it WD or Seagate HDD, what they care is quality/reliability which means ZERO HASSLE <- this aspect is the most important! If it works good enough - who cares what XFX or Gainward or eVGA or WhoKnowsWhat label is on it? From all this comes very easy recipe for success - grab a small subset of common hardware, which means go to Newegg or any other major parts supplier, I don't care who exactly and it does not matter here - then pick the best quality mainstream parts. Say pick Seagate 200GB HDDs, some inexpensive Asus videos, and stuff like that. Main point here must be a good balance between price and reliability/noise/hassle/maintenance. Noobs don't want the huge whining overclocked box with flashy LEDs in every little hole. They want a) reliable b) quiet c) zero think about maintenance box. I know what I'm talking about because I have lots of friends both among overclockers and among people who use pre-built inexpensive PCs just to check email/browse the Web occasionally. So, after you pick all this good hardware - you just establish a new brand, let's call it ScionPC (just like Toyota hid behind flashy Scion logo, neat trick!) and then one thing that's left is to team with Microsoft to provide unified update service for both the Vista software AND hardware. ONLY THIS CERTIFIED SUBSET of hardware of course <- and this is VERY IMPORTANT TOO! And the very last thing is to design some nice case, maybe something like Shuttle, or that new Dell portable desktop, but not for this crazy price of $4000 US, it should NOT cost almost THREE TIMES AS EXPENSIVE AS iMac! That's it, that's the recipe to forget about Apple with their annoying marketing forever. Once you follow this recipe, you get a new brand of PC, which has only ONE significant difference - it accepts a specially certificated subset of hardware "for noobs", so to say, where they just plug it in and bingo, NOTHING ELSE - the hardware configures itself, Vista automatically downloads proper drivers from this unified update site, then adds necessary configuration widgets to Control Panel, and maybe some command line utilities for more advanced stuff, see - it's a quick, silent and ZERO HASSLE/ZERO ADMINISTRATION/ZERO CONFIGURATION life, just like with a Mac! What will we have if such a brand existed? Oh, A LOT, let me assure you. Look at this: anybody from the overclocking crowd could buy this computer if they really wanted it, and they could just switch it to the "manual mode" - they'd go to Newegg, pick some cheap uncertified hardware, Vista would say "you smart aleck go to manufacturer's site and install the driver itself 'cause I don't know this thing - it's not noob certified so good bye" but this is exactly what any techie wants - to install the driver with their own hands, they (techies) just can't live without it. But if techie wants to go the noob way - there we go - get a certified part, pop it in and voila - it "just works", Mac-style! Isn't that cool? I say this is ubercool, and this is THE ONLY way to beat Apple, because following this recipe means beating Apple on ITS OWN TURF, and this is the only way to beat Apple, I just know this - got lots of conversations with my Mac-owning friends so I know the picture very well. I mean I know precisely why people keep switching to Macs, and it has nothing to do with Newegg and overclocking - wake up guys, look around :-) Try to see something behind your hot and expensive overclocked box.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By creathir on 6/8/2006 6:07:56 PM , Rating: 2
Wow...
I have written some pretty darn long posts before... but this beats all of mine...
Kudos to you and your ability to make me SCROLL to read the entire post... lol (1280x1024... so not crazy crazy resolution)
- Creathir


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By PrinceGaz on 6/8/2006 6:41:49 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
If you think about it, it's such a piece of cake - you'll be stunned when... etc, etc, etc.


You might want to learn about something called a Paragraph. There is a nice article on Wikipedia where you can read about it and learn how to use them here-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By KaPolski on 6/8/2006 5:55:03 PM , Rating: 2
Pirk and Evident, would you not agree that Apple's sales growth is mainly and almost exclusively due to very aggressive marketing? The Ipod is why Apple's sales are growing, all you ever see nowadays on billboards are those overhyped ipods (not that i hate them, i have on of the older ones)
OS X is really not THAT much simpler than windows, things merely find themselves a few clicks further, so i believe we are grossely underestimating the average computer users intelligence here.
Back to my marketing point, Apple has the advantage of selling entire systems as opposed to software, and unless computer vendors start to promote windows more aggressively then they may well start to lose ground, that's where i believe MS's problem lies.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Pirks on 6/8/2006 7:10:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
would you not agree that Apple's sales growth is mainly and almost exclusively due to very aggressive marketing? The Ipod is why Apple's sales are growing, all you ever see nowadays on billboards are those overhyped ipods (not that i hate them, i have on of the older ones)
I would be very careful when shifting all the responsibilty for their fast market growth onto the halo effect only. So even if I agree that iPod growth has something to do with marketing (not exclusively but marketing helps for sure), even then I ask - what marketing helped them to consume so much of the MP3 player market so fast? There are other things beside marketing at work there, and the main one I think is this noob-friendly nature of iPods. They all were designed to be user-friendly and have unique feature of tight integration with iTMS and they also have that nice extension slot for a lots of accessories, and this is why you see iPods integrated with cars everywhere - good luck trying to integrate Cerative Zen or Archos Gmini into a car audio system... so iPod has a couple of unique features which were, I think, mainly responsible for its success, and marketiung was NOT the main feature - the iTMS and the extension slot/accessories thing were the primary reasons. And small/slick design of course, nice UI, nice wheel, all these little neat things just clicked together perfectly on time. Nobody of the Apple competitors like Creative or iRiver had such well polished and well integrated designs (iTMS + accessories + design - ALL TOGETHER) although some of them DID have better price and maybe better design, but NOT ALL TOGETHER, here's the secret... I think.
quote:
OS X is really not THAT much simpler than windows, things merely find themselves a few clicks further, so i believe we are grossely underestimating the average computer users intelligence here
I agree that OS X itself is not VERY differnt from Vista, but the COMPUTER TOGETHER WITH OS, especially for a noob - there IS a difference. Right now, before Vista is out, here's the situation: if you're a noob you can go two routes 1) buy pre-built PC from Dell or any other reasonable brand or 2) buy iMac or Mini. If you buy a PC from Dell, for example, you get a large box, which I don't know how well will deal with say mastering/burning DVDs? I know it's all basic in OS X, but in Dell for the same price, same $1000 (Mini) or $1500 (iMac) - I don't think you'll get as much as you get with iMac or Mini, plus Macs are much smaller, quieter and good looking, iMac is a new form factor itself - a portable dekstop. Hence whenever your budget is around $1000-$1500 for a new computer, its almost always better to go for a Mac, becuase there's always choice - you can run XP on it, or you can try out that automatic slick integrated thing which is Aple hardware and software TOGETHER <- this is important, Mac hardware by itself or Mac OS X by itself are not as great when not used together - yeah you can run XP on a Mac but unless you want a tiny slick PC to run XP on it there's not much point in buying a Mac... you can buy AOpen MiniPC if you want, it's not much worse for purely Windows oriented stuff. So yeah, you're right that Vista is not VERY different from OS X, but the WHOLE PACKAGE OF HARDWARE AND OS _T_O_G_E_T_H_E_R_ that Apple offers - that's still quite different, just because there are (yet?) no PC vendors that control/certify the hardware and provide this smooth and zero think about tech details experience the Macs provide.
quote:
Back to my marketing point, Apple has the advantage of selling entire systems as opposed to software, and unless computer vendors start to promote windows more aggressively then they may well start to lose ground, that's where i believe MS's problem lies.

Promoting Windows will not help - didn't Creative/iRiver/Archos/etc promote their players? Where they are now? Right, Windows is not as easy to run over as it was with MP3 players, it's extremely well entrenched... it seems... but what happens when the users start slowly migrating from it because Macs cost THE SAME and WORK BETTER. Not better in hot overclocking way with lotsa LEDs in every hole - but better in a smooth, "don't think about administration/hardware drivers/other techie details" way? Which has NOTHING to do with marketing <- this is very important.
So here we have a situation where people slowly migrate from Windows to Macs just because they are more friendly. And what I'm saying to MS is: do not let Apple to overrun you, because Apple is smarter than you think, they know how to root out Windows slowly and steadily, they aim at weak spots (like 6-year delays between major OS releases) of MS and shoot very well. All they have to do is to steadily keep ahead of Windows feature-wise (very easy thing to do - look at how Vista is hurriedly running after Tiger all the time) and also keep their computers more user friendly than Windows, that's it. Once they start the trend it's very hard to reverse - because they sell more Macs which lets them to lower prices, which sells even more Macs and so on... The only thing that can stop that trend - is to mimic Apple's approach to home computing. Which means: "REMOVE AS MUCH ADMINISTRATIVE/MAINTENANCE TASKS FROM THE USER AS YOU CAN" and the recipe was in my previous post here. It's all almost in place, I'm just waiting for the moment when Apple market share grows so big that people at Dell and MS start to see things that I see and start rolling out that ScionPC I mentioned in my previous post. I hope things will go that way, eventually.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Pirks on 6/8/2006 6:16:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
MS also has to worry about backwards compatibility, something Apple can throw out the door because apple users must upgrade their entire systems.
Very nice shot but you missed. Everybody of Windows world tends to forget about some backwards compatibility Apple provides. Wanna remember Mac OS Classic inside Mac OS X? Wanna remember Rosetta to emulate PPC hardware on new Intel Macs? You call all this "THROW COMPATIBILITY OUT THE DOOR"??? What the heck you're smoking, man, I want that weed too :))


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By beemercer on 6/9/2006 10:04:00 PM , Rating: 2
Pirks likes the wang.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By fsardis on 6/9/2006 11:30:41 AM , Rating: 1
just by your statements it is very easy for someone who uses other OS to realise what an ignorant you are.
First of all you are trying to compare oranges with apples here. and speaking of apples, the Apple OS system was never meant to have maximum hardware compatibility like the PC OS are. Apple is focusing on user friendliness which is why your average thick chick is carrying one.
Now looking at PC market who said linux is not compatible with insane hardware combinations? have you even used Linux in your life? I got 5 computers with the same specs more or less and for games that run both on Linux and Windows I see them run alot better on Linux. I have seen UT2004 have serious hicups in winxp and run smoothly on Linux on the same hardware. In terms of efficient coding microsoft sucks ass in every respect. which is why their OS are always bloated and resource hogs.
As for the archair managers and programmers, although i am not one, just because you can spot mistakes and you complain for them doesnt mean you got the resources to create your own OS. but oh wait a sec, thats how linux works isnt it? the world makes it. but i guess when you watch a football match you never cuss a player for playing dumb. you can do better right? oh wait a second, you do cuss although you are probably too fat to move your legs.
and people dont like the MS monopoly even though its good for america? let me tell you one thing. we dont give a shit about america and the american citizens are getting as milked as the rest of the world by the likes of bill gates. if you wanna pay for inferior product that has become the standard.
and if you are about to tell me it has become the standard cause its good think again. it is the standard cause they were lucky enough at first to grab a good position in the software scene. after that, using their money and some questionable business practices they forced their way to the top. ever tried of buying a pc from dell without windows? not possible. even if you dont want it you will get it. same for all other major vendors. dont tell me cause dell and the others didnt make a dodgy deal for this. or maybe MS was kind enough to blackmail them with higher prices unless they sign the contract? kinda like intel and dell did against AMD.
so who are you calling the best dude? the scum that breaks the law more times a day than your average thug and gets away with it cause they got the money? or do you stand for a company that until today has never created a system that is half the way secure? and i bet you adore how the new WGA pings MS every day just so they know what you are up to.
People like you have brough the technology to its sad state. be gone and never come back you belong to the caves.


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By TomZ on 6/9/2006 12:54:27 PM , Rating: 2
fsardis, I think you make some good points, but here are a couple that you are missing.

First, the convergence of basically all of the U.S. economy is using Windows and other Microsoft applications has had a huge postive productivity impact on workers here in the U.S. The impact of that cannot really be quanitified, but it is huge. Microsoft, primarily through Windows and Office, made all office workers more productive, and really created the large PC market that exists today. Yes, a by-product of that is they do enjoy a monopoly (which is not a bad thing by itself), but of course they did cross the line and leverage their monopoly to increase sales, which is bad. But still, that does not erase the overall positive impact that Microsoft has had on our economy and standard of living in the U.S. I assume this also applies overseas, but I am less sure about the impact.

Second, you fail to realize that, despite their monopoly, you and I still have choices. In addition, I think you fail to understand and accept that many people choose to buy Windows, and even more shocking, many people like Windows. But you may prefer Linux, and just as I respect your choice to prefer and choose Linux, you need to repect others' choice to prefer Windows. I realize in this anti-establishment micro-culture, it is "uncool" to say these things, but they are the truth.

Finally, you seem to be claiming a moral superiority with open source, which I say is bullshit. Windows was developed by a company that worked very hard and invested probably billions of R&D dollars over the years. Linux was developed by many individuals working very hard over many years. Windows was done for a profit motive, which is not bad. Linux was done for other motives (maybe anti-establishment motive, I'm not sure; I'll let you tell me what they were). But morally, neither OS is superior to the other; they are both developed by passionate people, the only difference being that there is a different business model. Developing software for profit is not immoral, unethical, etc. As I said above, of course Microsoft did make some mistakes along the way, but you can't (rationally) condemn all of Microsoft's products, efforts, and customers due to some mistakes along the way. In other words, because Microsoft abused their monopoly doesn't make Windows "bad."


RE: I don't hate microsoft
By Pirks on 6/9/2006 7:25:38 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
First of all you are trying to compare oranges with apples here. and speaking of apples, the Apple OS system was never meant to have maximum hardware compatibility like the PC OS are. Apple is focusing on user friendliness which is why your average thick chick is carrying one.
Very good point - that's why the only way to create really user friendly (or noob friendly) PC is to restrict its compatible hardware list to some easily manageable subset just like Apple did. Once Apple grabs enough market share (if it happens, and it's a big IF) some PC vendor smarter than others will realize that and will create a PC Mac clone - with the same automatic setup and update of everyting INCLUDING HARDWARE (certified of course).
quote:
and for games that run both on Linux and Windows
Ha-ha-ha-haaa, what a funny Linux zealot you are, fsardis ;-) You made a good point here again - the games that run BOTH on Linux and Windows. It's such a sad state of affairs in Linux world that most of the games I love (like Call of Cthulhu) don't and probably won't run on Linux. Unfortunately, the only PC OS where gaming is real fun is Windows XP. All these Unices, like Linux and Mac OS X - they are just a pathetic joke for gaming. You can wait for your average blockbusters like CoD being ported by some obscure little comany, but if you like me enjoy more indie/artsy games like Vietcong and Call of Cthulhu, or Alice, or Undying - there you go - Windows only (dunno about older titles like Alice but newer stuff like CoC - just forget about Linux or Mac). Another story is about Linux hardware compatibility. I remember the time I bought Nomad Zen almost four years ago. Windows - pop it in, have fun. Linux - pop it in and have NOTHING. No fun, no fear, no sadness - emptiness, the dark hole, you know. This is plain sick for an average Windows user like me. Even OS X is more friendly to new gadgets than Linux. I ordered Sandisk Sansa e250 for my wife yesterday - I know I'll pop it in and it'll work in Windows. This thing called WinMediaPlayer pops up and I can grab my playlists and stuff, while in Linux I likely will be restricted to USB mode (unless somebody hacked MTP there, hello?) - and for those Mac freaks out there - yea just tell them how great Linux is for their beloved fat corky iTunes - they'll laugh at you - 'cause how much time you had to wait until some Linux coder/hacker was able to reverse engineer Apple protocol - so this is what you guys do in Linux - you just sit there and WAIT, all the time. Some company made some gadget - you sit and wait for someone to reverse engineer it or spend several months of your life (SEVERAL MONTHS, YUCK!!!) to reverse engineer it yourself. Some company made a game - and again you sit there and WAIT WAIT WAIT while Wine supports it, while DX9 or 10 is ported and so on... and when DX10 stuff like Crysis is out - just stick your Linux you know where then... I wonder how many YEARS it'll take to make DX10 work on Linux with REAL SPEED, not emulated via some Xen VM with slideshowish frame rate, thank you. Me - I don't wait. When I want something - I go and buy it, pop it in and it just works! Just like those Mac users love to say - it just works. Linux is great if don't require much from your PC, but when you push it to the edge with gaming or video/multimedia stuff - close the manhole man and get back underground where you belong - Linux didn't make it to the dekstop and never will, and NOT because it's a bad OS - as an OS technically it can beat many others, maybe Windows too, depending on what merits you judge it on, but of all Unices that CAN and probably WILL make it to the average Joe's desktop there is one and the only - Mac OS X. And again NOT because it's Unix/opensource/BSD/blahblah/all your lovely RMS/ESR speak - it'll make it to the desktop for totally different reasons. And I also can secure my Windows, do all the VPN I want and other stuff, although it's not as easy and transparent as in Linux - but for me as a home/desktop guy this is not significant - I'm not your enterprise admin so braindead IPSec in Windows doesn't bother me, I go and DL OpenVPN, and I'm happy - I have secure OS, all my firewalls, all my VPN and packet filter rules, NO antiviruses, it's all just like in your lovely Linux - plus ALL the gadgets, cool hardware and cool games I want, no restrictions! Provided games are for PC of course (god I hate consoles). See, why would anyone of home/desktop users go from Windows to Linux? Other than for ideological reasons (passionary love of RMS/ESR :-), or because they really can't stand cygwin, or because they wanna save like $130 or something - there's no reason - for the common folk of course. That's why you Linux guys stay in manhole so far and will stay there forever, concerning home desktops - and enterprise is totally different story I don't wanna touch, cause my home is not enterprise so I don't care :-P


Vista/Microsuck
By shabodah on 6/8/06, Rating: 0
RE: Vista/Microsuck
By The Space Janitor on 6/8/2006 2:15:49 PM , Rating: 4
Brilliant post. Making an OS is so simple. The costs associated with its development are so small, why not just pull a number out of your ass like say, $50, and charge that for it? I don't imagine they have a complex pricing model based on their revenue and expenditures, and expected return.

Honestly, why not sell it for less than the price of a video game? Development time and cost are about equal, no?
That would also eliminate piracy. Who's ever heard of a pirated video game before?

I'm amazed you haven't started your own company yet; because seriously, you should go into business.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Pops on 6/8/06, Rating: 0
RE: Vista/Microsuck
By TomZ on 6/8/06, Rating: 0
RE: Vista/Microsuck
By stmok on 6/8/2006 3:08:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The reason they have a monopoly in Windows is not because anybody was forced to buy it, it just happened to be that everyone decided to buy it because it was the best OS around.


Best OS around?

How much weed have you been smoking in the past 24 hours?
When was the last time you were drug tested?

Windows is a monopoly because it was bundled with systems. When you don't tell people about alternatives and bundle your software into systems they buy, do you really think that isn't forcing the choice of the user?

Or are you an arrogant by-product of Microsoft marketing?

Who do you work for?


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By robber98 on 6/8/2006 4:01:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Windows is a monopoly because it was bundled with systems.


True but tell me, what OS should be install other then MS Windows? How many people on this planet know how to use an OS other then MS Windows? MS Windows is not the best OS, but it fits better into our daily life.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By glennpratt on 6/8/2006 4:26:55 PM , Rating: 2
Don't tell people about the alternatives! Good lord, they sell products that support MacOS, Unix and Linux... Give me a break. Who hasn't heard of Apple computers since 1984... maybe like 2 people.

And no, even your hyothesis is BS even if it were true, it still wouldn't be 'forcing' anything. Cingular doesn't tell me about T-Mobile's wireless plans when I shop there stuff, nor should they.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By ronster on 6/9/2006 2:54:14 AM , Rating: 2
Windows is a monopoly because it was bundled with systems.

So have been the numerous versions of the MacOS. And don't tell me until the last five years or so that any other OS with the exception of maybe OS/2 was even remotely seriously pushed as a Windows alternative on Intel hardware.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By sxr7171 on 6/14/2006 3:54:38 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah. Systems manufacturers put Windows on their computers because it sucked and because they knew their customers would hate it. They did it in hopes that they would sell less and less computers 'till one day there'd be no personal computers and best of all - NO MORE WINDOWS!


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Locutus465 on 6/14/2006 12:28:45 PM , Rating: 2
Can you name a better competing OS with the same level of backwards compaitiblity and history dating back to the orignal IBM PC? Windows won because IBM went with DOS (which windows was built on top of). I guess in a sence bundling is the reason microsoft won, but it wasn't bundling due to the fact that microsoft was a big monopoly, it was bundling because microsoft gave IBM the best deal at the time.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By lemonadesoda on 6/8/2006 3:14:07 PM , Rating: 2
Oh TomZ, that's such a lame post and very unlike you...

Analogy:

1./ Would you complain if the government increased tax on gas/petrol by 200%? According to you, that's a "seller and buyer transaction" and you are not forced to buy it.

2./ Would you complain if the Music industry and Performing Rights societies decided to increase prices by 100%?

3./ Would you complain if I owned the patent on "the wheel" and I charged you a day salary every time you rode in a car?

As a reminder to other readers that may have missed the legal issues over the last umpteen years, or in case they haven't heard of monopolies, the issue is that M$ is in a (very) lucky position to have not only very high market share, have nearly insurmountable barriers to entry due to application compatibility, and is consequently an effective monopoly and can price pretty much where it wants to. There is no direct competition. ... and please don't tell me Apple OS is that competition. (Or linux).

Now, although MS have an excellent product - and I'm a willing user and supporter - the point is that the profit markup on the product is astronomical. No. There is no cost+ sophisticated analysis. It is an achieveable volume x price point marketing exercise.

I actually think MS deserve their profits. But the original posters point is valid.

If the third world can't afford to pay for MS products, then equally there are groups of individuals (or small businesses) in our own countries that are very challenged to be able to afford the one-price-fits-all.

Oh, I forgot... large corporations get a whacking discount.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Ringold on 6/8/2006 5:52:34 PM , Rating: 3
I just had to pipe in this time.

Unfortunately, actually, TomZ simply remembers his Macro & Microeconomics courses from college. All your analogies can, and are every day this very second, being disproven.

Gov increase gasoline tax 200%? Thats fine; that'd insure a transition from oil to ethanol within a couple years, and you can actually buy stills to make your own at home perfectly legally and untaxed. Not entirely cost effective unless you end up fueling several cars, and there is slight labor involved, but in places where the market demands an alternative an alternative profitably exists (which there always is as long as demand is good enough). Therefore, you go pay whatever your local station is charging you for gas because you choose to; you could actually buy compressed natural gas civic's, buy (by the barrel) or make your own ethanol, or buy or make your own biodiesel. Friend of mine from highschool buys a 65 gallon drum, delivered to his door, every other week!

Music industry? Canadian musicians seem to be perfectly willing to undercut RIAA when it comes to DRM. Demand is starting to grow, and we'll see more direct-to-consumer low-cost options there soon (if there arent already some).

And the wheel? No modern parallel exists, but whatever you were charging, people that didnt think it carried that sort of value to them wouldn't pay, like TomZ said. The actual term is consumer and producer surplus, if you wanted to educate yourself on the matter.

Linux truly is an alternative product. If you want to hand-pick certain components for compatibility and have made sure you dont need certain applications that are Win-only, then Linux makes sense if Windows compatibility isn't needed. I personally run my mothers computer with Xubuntu; it's actually easy for her and I dont currently have to worry about spyware or viruses (much).

MS is simply an extremely competitive company which has gross profit margins in line with other software and service companies. Just because the numbers are big doesn't mean it's a rip off, either; some industries realize 5% gross margins, some, 90%. Exxon's margins, in reality, are pathetic compared to, say, AMD and Intel.

Anyway, economic study is completely behind TomZ. Arguing anything else, in this case, is not understanding the market (which is understandable for anyone that slept through Econ) or a warped point of view. Just because you personally might be too lazy to seek alternatives, or dont wish to rock the social boat because 'everyone else does it' or 'has it', doesn't mean alternative products and options dont exist.

And even more basic economics: computers are generally a want, not a need. Public ones are available all over the place. And the functions that might truly be needed are available on Linux. If you do something for work perhaps that requires Windows, then you probably are able to afford it. If not, get a new profession. Economics isn't emotional, and doesn't try to be nice, it simply is.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By creathir on 6/8/2006 3:41:35 PM , Rating: 2
Wow... just because a product is IN DEMAND does not mean the people should charge LESS for their product.

If the market is willing to pay $140 for an operating system, even if it only cost $50 to develop, that is just how things work. If they refused to buy it, it would not be so expensive. You really need to learn basic supply/demand principles here. Half the people on this site live in this... fantasy that supply and demand has no affect on anything in this world...

All of those people are sadly mistaken. These are the same people that are complaining left and right about "big oil" getting even richer off of Tiny Tim's back. News flash: if you don't like the price/can't afford it, don't buy it. Once demand goes down, the companies will be forced to lower their price to increase their potential market.

Basic economics.

- Creathir


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Pops on 6/8/2006 3:56:20 PM , Rating: 1
No, supply and demand dont apply to software or other intellectual property, the same way it applies to oil. There is a limited amount of oil you can suck out of the ground at any time. There is no(tangible) supply limitations on intellectual property.

A single concert can be preformed for 10 people, or 100,000. The effort involved for the performer is the same in both cases.

The OP was making the point that Microsoft could charge $50 and still pull in profits larger then any other software maker, even if they have higher production costs. Add to that, they would see less piracy because more people could afford it. People dont have a practical alternative to Windows, even if some of you swear they do. Its not practical to use Linux or Macs for some people due to ease or use or hardware costs, not to mention a smaller software base.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By kitchme on 6/8/2006 4:23:18 PM , Rating: 2
Nicely said


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By creathir on 6/8/2006 4:43:57 PM , Rating: 2
Listen to you...
It does apply...

Should supply and demand not apply to food??
This is something that is just GROWN... the farmer just gets the conditions right... that’s all... so why should I have to pay for that can of corn?

You are totally negating the amount of time a person has put into that. Believe it or not, software takes TIME to create.

Also, what about service industries? They are just selling a SERVICE... should they not be compensated appropriately? Come on! How about CPUs? Using your logic, a CPU should only cost around $.50 or so... I mean, its just sand right?
Give me a break...

- Creathir


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Lifted on 6/8/2006 4:58:51 PM , Rating: 2
You might have had a point there, but you lost it after the second line. Try again.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Ringold on 6/8/2006 6:09:34 PM , Rating: 2
People arguing in favor of econ dont need to try again, others need to try to understand again.

Supply/demand exists in all things. For god sakes, look at money. It's virtual to a large degree, and the federal reserve can create or lock up billions, or even trillions, of dollars at almost zero cost. The trick is having the right amount on the market.

MS is in a similar position, though with the profit motive being the goal. Charge the most possible to maximize total surplus (consumer+producer). It might not look like it on a simple chart, but if MS charged less, the economy would be operating less efficiently, meaning people take home less money from work, spend less, and create less jobs.

Personally nothing further to say; if some of you guys dont understand, use google to try to find some material to learn with. Preferably nothing written by Marx, unless you're european and in to the whole socialism "give me something cheap because i'm entitled to it" thing.

Oh, and talk regarding 3rd world countries not affording it.. There is something MS could do, 'price discrimination', but the real digital world makes that very, very difficult; easier, and until something like FlexGo or PayGo or whatever works, its more efficient for everybody involved to be a single-price monopolist. And last: most companies are at the very least oligopolist (they share very similar pricing properties). If monopolies bother people, they best not ever go shopping again. ever.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By The Space Janitor on 6/8/2006 4:24:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well when a company has 2 of the top 10 richest people in the world, its safe to say they over charge for their products.

And to your price vs games cost point. Do 95% of all computers have Halflife 2 installed? No, but they do have windows installed. What you lack are profit margin per sale you can make up in volume.


Over charge? A product is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it. Bvlgari "over charge" for their products too, if by that you mean their handbags cost less to produce than the price they put on the tag.

Of course a product with a low average fixed cost can be incredibly profitable with high volume; this is the principle Microsoft has used since its inception, and is the same model nearly all software companies are based on. The original poster claimed piracy would not be an issue if their price was reduced to about 1/3 of what it currently is. Let's assume this premise. So this means, in order to approximately have the same revenue returned, Microsoft would have to sell 3 copies of XP Pro for every 1 at their current price. Overlooking the issue that this would be an incredible gamble to play on a relatively steady market, they only place they could make up for this 66% loss is by selling more copies of the software.

If, as you claim, 95% of computers are currently running Windows XP, they cannot capture more than an extra 5% market share. Not much to make up there.
Really, the only extra place to grow would be to convert the pirates currently using XP Pro, and to think that every pirate, or even the majority of pirates, currently using the software would now go out and buy a license, you're living in a fantasy land. High amounts of piracy have been around long before inflated software prices.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By cgrecu77 on 6/8/2006 6:30:17 PM , Rating: 2
thing is, the biggest issue with software is that they're forcing you to buy one copy for each computer. Having 4 computers in the house it would take me $1000 to put windows on all 4. If MS would give some kind of minivolume licenses it would be a great thing. I would be willing to buy 1 copy of windows if I could use it on at 2 of my machines - they could tie the activation to the IP - for example 2 machines with the same serial would be allowed if they are in the same network or something like this. I realize this is a difficult thing for them to implement, but I can't afford $1000 just for OS alone - and I'm sure many people are in my position.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Steve Guilliot on 6/8/2006 7:56:04 PM , Rating: 2
4 copies of xp doesn't cost $1000 ($250 ea).
You can get Pro for $140 and Home for $85.

Also, if you can afford four (4) computers, you can afford the software too. You can't claim financial burdern while you sit on a pile of pc's. Most families don't have more than one.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By TomZ on 6/8/2006 10:51:14 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
thing is, the biggest issue with software is that they're forcing you to buy one copy for each computer.

Who's forcing you? Did Bill come to your house, and hold a gun to your head and force you?

Simply order a PC without Windows. If the vendor you're looking at doesn't offer this option, then buy from a different vendor.

I've never bought Windows with a PC; I have always bought it separately.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By Locutus465 on 6/14/2006 12:26:02 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah... Video game piracy has *never* been an issue :P


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By TomZ on 6/8/06, Rating: 0
RE: Vista/Microsuck
By xsilver on 6/8/2006 5:41:22 PM , Rating: 2
you and others above forget the fact that software and harware must go together just like buying a car and buying fuel

using linux/os-x is not a totally practical idea as it forces you into things.
something like if you were to buy a car you are only allowed to drive in specially created lanes or something. (my point being that 99% of the population is in one boat, its hard to be in the other)

I thought the definition of monopoly was that there is no CHOICE and thereby forcing??


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By creathir on 6/8/2006 6:03:09 PM , Rating: 2
Or maybe... you could just NOT UPGRADE...
- Creathir


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By TomZ on 6/8/2006 10:52:24 PM , Rating: 2
Why does software and hardware have to go together? If you choose a particular PC, it doesn't require Windows; you can run Linux or maybe even Unix on it. Why do you feel you have been deprived of choice?


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By xsilver on 6/9/2006 7:18:21 AM , Rating: 2
creathir makes a good point about not upgrading, I have no problem with that --- but arguing that there IS a choice is highly debatable..

ok, if I said that from now on for everyone you meet instead of talking to them naturally you had to hold up a sign that says "I only speak XXX language". Even though you dont NEED to learn english; dont you think it would make life easier if you just learnt the same language as everybody else?

Linux has good compatability for office docs but if you had a more unique prog that was windows based; you may be in trouble.. and also the whole gaming community is stuck with windows as well.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By xsilver on 6/9/2006 7:20:05 AM , Rating: 2
also just realized that NOT upgrading is starting to not become an option for gamers because of the whole dx10 features thing and how I notice certain programs are no longer win9x compatible.


RE: Vista/Microsuck
By TomZ on 6/9/2006 10:48:57 AM , Rating: 3
Yes, I see your point, that if you want to use an app that is only available on Windows, then you have to buy Windows. But I think this is true of any platform, and you have to see the platform plus apps as an entire choice. Since I choose to use Windows, maybe there are some cool apps that run on Mac or Linux that I can't use, but that is part of the decision I made.


WinFX
By Puddleglum on 6/8/2006 1:50:36 PM , Rating: 2
You mean FX, not FS, I think.




RE: WinFS is correct
By Digobick on 6/8/2006 1:52:46 PM , Rating: 2
WinFS was dropped from the shipping version of Vista. WinFX is a new API for Windows XP, Windows Server 2003, and Windows Vista.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winfx


RE: WinFX
By Scorpion on 6/8/2006 1:54:37 PM , Rating: 2
No, he means WinFS. Windows File System. It was the revolutionary new File System Microsoft has been toting for years to replace NTFS.

Correction: It appears WinFS actually stands for Windows Future Storage? I always thought it was "File System" :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winfs


RE: WinFX
By saratoga on 6/8/2006 7:09:32 PM , Rating: 2
Hilariously, WinFS isn't even a file system. NTFS is actually required for it to function IIRC.

It is one of the more misleading names I've seen. Everyone assumes NTFS 2.0 when they see it.


RE: WinFX
By TomZ on 6/8/2006 11:06:12 PM , Rating: 2
Well, that's a matter of semantics, if you ask me. Yes, you are right that WinFS does require NTFS, since it effectively layers on top of it.

But if your application is written against WinFS, and this effectively results in access to files, then from your application's perspective, WinFS is the file system. It is just a file system at a higher level of abstraction than NTFS.


RE: WinFX
By TomZ on 6/8/2006 1:54:45 PM , Rating: 3
No, WinFS is correct. WinFS is the database-like filesystem extension that is now going to be shipped separate from Vista, and available for WinXP, Win2003, and Vista.

WinFX is a new set of managed APIs, that AFAIK are still going to be shipped with Vista. WinFX is also going to be made available for WinXP and Win2003.


"Yet another"
By Sharky974 on 6/9/2006 12:58:25 AM , Rating: 1
Good 'ol dailytech. The politically correct.

Pro Nvidia. Anti ATI. Anti MS. Anti RIAA/MPAA. Pro pirates. Pro Nintendo.

That about cover it? Political correct in the tech world, virtual definition=Dailytech.

"Yet another feature dropped". Yeah, I believe you. Lol. I really believe you. You're not just saying that because it's a company you're anti. Sure.

Go Vista! Yet another feature ADDED is the truth! That Dailytech wont report.

I cant wait to get Vista! With new features added daily, and it's already far better than the politically correct linux or Apple.




RE: "Yet another"
By Hare on 6/9/2006 5:00:57 AM , Rating: 3
Vista is nothing it was promised to be and people are disappointed. Fanboys just don't seem to get it. I was excited about WinFS and n+1 other features but now Vista is looking like a reskinned XP with DX10.


Overblown
By Sharky974 on 6/9/2006 5:53:01 AM , Rating: 1
A file sharing system? Whoooooo caaaaaaresssss.

This is really gonna matter when it hits in November. NOT.

It's just typical dailytech anti-MS BS. Same old same old.

They are one of the most annoying thing to hit AT in ages, besides being stupid and inaccurate.

Even one of the companies they shill for, a politically correct company, Nvidia, called them liars..


And oh well
By Sharky974 on 6/9/2006 5:56:04 AM , Rating: 2
Dont buy it then. And in the meanwhile, please dont complain about it.

This is dumb. A bunch of whining, changes nothing, everybody's going to buy it. So lets cut out the middleman.

WinFS. What the fuck?


RE: And oh well
By Sharky974 on 6/9/2006 5:57:02 AM , Rating: 2
And they've dropped PC-to PC snyc.

Whatever the hell that was that I didn't give a shit about.


RE: Overblown
By Hare on 6/9/06, Rating: 0
RE: Overblown
By TomZ on 6/9/2006 3:15:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Every single major feature has been dropped and now all we have is the cool searchbar (been using it for ages with Mac OS X) and DX10 which is pretty much the only thing to look up for.

No, wrong. There are lots of major features in Vista:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/features/def...

This lists dozens of new, significant features in Vista. You may argue that these features don't interest you, but just because they don't interest you doesn't mean they don't exist. It also doesn't mean these features don't interest other people.


RE: Overblown
By Hare on 6/9/06, Rating: 0
DX10
By NerV04 on 6/8/2006 1:51:52 PM , Rating: 2
its starting to seem like the only benefit for me upgrading would be for the newer games that are goin to come out using DX10...
dont know if spending another 100+ dollars is worth that though...




RE: DX10
By KaPolski on 6/8/2006 3:29:23 PM , Rating: 2
But generally spending a couple of houndred on a new graphics card is usually acceptable...?


RE: DX10
By Hare on 6/8/2006 5:11:32 PM , Rating: 2
Compare the benefits. DX10 vs new pixel shaders, more power etc etc. If MS sold just the DX10 the comparison would be valid. Now you are supposed to buy a new os just to play newer games. The situation is artificial. Any actual reasons why you couldn't implement DX10 on XP...

Besides it will be ages before we see that many DX10 titles. Sure MS will release new halo DX10 only just to up their OS sales, but other than that... The DX10 benefits are quite small.


RE: DX10
By Xenoterranos on 6/9/2006 1:01:29 AM , Rating: 2
Try playing Doom III under windows 3.1, or 95 for that matter! (not that I'm saying it won't work mind you...)


Tired yet?
By INeedCache on 6/9/2006 2:15:28 PM , Rating: 2
Don't you MS whiners and naysayers ever get tired of your senseless drivel?




RE: Tired yet?
By mindless1 on 6/10/2006 7:41:33 AM , Rating: 2
If truth bothers you, stick your head back in the sand.


RE: Tired yet?
By TomZ on 6/10/2006 2:06:23 PM , Rating: 2
Considering that most arguments in this thread against Microsoft have been based on emotion and ignorance, I think your comment is pretty ironic.


RE: Tired yet?
By mindless1 on 6/10/2006 10:53:28 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, let's just put it another way then. No matter whether you agree or disagree with what someone else wants, it's their money and they are entitled to spend it how they want. So we have to break up a certain monopoly in any free markets, enabling competition and whatever the MS shills want to use, that's fine too.


Vista: XP with a shiney new interface?
By Scorpion on 6/8/2006 1:52:21 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously there is absolutely no reason that I see to upgrade from XP to Vista. Microsoft continues to drop all the features I've been begging for for years. Sync Bookmarks between my multiple machines, and files as well. It would have been nice. Guess I'll have to look for 3rd party programs to take care of all of that.

This is getting ridiculous. Reading another dropped feature now is like laughing at the same retold joke over and over. What's going on with Microsoft's OS coders? Did they downsize or ship them off to other divisions? Or is all their talent being sucked up by Google and Apple? @)




By saratoga on 6/8/2006 7:10:27 PM , Rating: 2
The integration with DX10 looks like a huge reason to upgrade for me.


By johnsonx on 6/8/2006 8:18:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Sync Bookmarks between my multiple machines, and files as well.


iFolder - http://www.ifolder.com

I've been using the NetWare server version for years. All my files follow me to my office desktops, home desktop, laptop, and across my Windows XP and Linux installs. I can't live without iFolder any more.


Lawsuits
By Dhaval00 on 6/8/2006 6:02:55 PM , Rating: 2
I don't understand the flip-flopping individuals... if MS includes and "packs" everything in a single OS, maybe it will get sued to death. Have any of you looked at the freaking EU shit that MS is into lately? If they drop a feature, you don't like MS... if they don't include a feature, you hate MS?
Sure, they said some features were dropped. I would love it if someone threw some light on WHY those features were dropped! MS isn't perfect and anyone who thinks they can make PERFECT, BUGLESS software (OS), needs to go read some OS books. Read the book "The Mythical Man Month" by Brooks, and you'll figure out what kind of problems MS is having. Too many people on a single job, can create havoc (You have to meet the deadlines; you have to ship the product, or lose millions for not shipping a finished product).

I seriously think that MS had to drop some its features just to avoid future lawsuits.




RE: Lawsuits
By Merglet on 6/9/2006 12:33:42 AM , Rating: 2
WinFS was hardly a feature that MS could get sued over. That'd be like suing Linux and Unix for not using NTFS :P

The things people are talking about aren't embedded garbage (outlook express comes to mind, and IE does too, I recall trying to uninstall that in the late 90's when I was more a netscape user, and my entire OS was f$*&ed), they're things that MS was bragging about that made sense.

To mention the whole cost discussion, I agree that there's no reason to charge quite as much as they do. They probably would find that more people would simply buy the OS if Home were $60 and Pro were $100. As for "well Apple charges..." They can charge what they want. As long as they do, they'll never have more than the tiny % of market share they have now, at least in my opinion.


P2P syncing already available as part of MS Live!
By ninjit on 6/9/2006 3:57:22 AM , Rating: 2
This P2P file sharing system has been available in beta for quite some time.

www.foldershare.com

Which MS bought and released as part of their new Live! web presence.

The service is free, and works really really well... I especially like the fact they support Mac OS X too.

I now have all my documents, photos, etc. in perfect sync between 2 Windows PCs at home (one desktop, one laptop) and 1 mac machine at work (soon to ad a macbook too).

I'm guessing this is what they had been planning to integrate into Vista, which would have been nice, but as long as they keep it as a feature within Live! I'll be happy.




By Sharky974 on 6/9/2006 5:57:58 AM , Rating: 1
Oh

Dailytech wrong again.

Surprise.

You dont think they just like whining about MS, do ya?



Correct me if I'm wrong
By DRavisher on 6/8/2006 2:32:28 PM , Rating: 2
but I do not believe that PowerShell (previously codenamed "Monad") was dropped from Vista as the article says. PowerShell is set to be released in 2h 2006 (RC1 is out right now) AFAIK.




OS Features
By deeznuts on 6/8/2006 2:53:58 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not too keen on OS's and don't pay particular attention to them. I follow their progress though. Anyways, the other day a mac user came into my office and I was impressed with the OS he was using, I'm assuming OSX. He would hit a button and all open windows would shrink to tiles, and then he would select a tile that would maximize that one. That was pretty freaking cool. Also he had a notes function, hit a button, or select a tool, and he woudl type himself a note that would stay on the desktop.

Since everyone has been saying vista copies OSX, are these features included in vista? That would be cool.




Ha ha!
By bersl2 on 6/8/2006 3:27:23 PM , Rating: 2
<nelson>Ha ha!</nelson>




Obvious!
By Clauzii on 6/9/2006 12:32:51 AM , Rating: 2
Of course they drop features - they are laready behind like nothing else..... Vista my a..




"Vista runs on Atom ... It's just no one uses it". -- Intel CEO Paul Otellini

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