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Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer
Microsoft isn't happy about a new tax on companies foreign profits

It takes an incredibly powerful company to threaten the U.S. government in hopes of impacting a significant decision, but that's precisely what Microsoft is doing.  Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer made headlines when he publicly attacked President Barack Obama's plan to cut tax breaks on U.S. companies' foreign profits, a plan which is currently awaiting Congressional approval.

Mr. Ballmer suggests that if the tax succeeds, Microsoft may begin a significant move out of the U.S., taking with it tax revenue and jobs.  He states, "It makes U.S. jobs more expensive.  We’re better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the U.S. as opposed to keeping them inside the U.S."

The plan, proposed by President Obama on May 4, seeks to help raise tax revenue and balance the budget by rolling back $190B USD in tax breaks for offshore companies over the next decade.  Microsoft is not the first to oppose the measure -- the National Foreign Trade Council, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the Business Roundtable are among the numerous others to voice their disapproval.

Previously, companies could defer paying corporate rates as high as 35 percent on most types of foreign profits, contingent that the company invests the money overseas.  The idea was that foreign profits are not the domain of the U.S.  President Obama disagrees, arguing that U.S. corporations' profits are U.S. earnings.  He believes that by taxing foreign profits, companies will be more likely to invest in the U.S., rather than shelter their money overseas.

Thanks to the current provision Microsoft enjoyed a very low tax rate of only 26 percent in 2008 on its profits.  A company report describes, "Our effective tax rates are less than the statutory tax rate due to foreign earnings taxed at lower rates."

Some, like Barry Bosworth, an economist in Washington at the Brookings Institution research center, accuse Microsoft and others of wrongdoing.  He says the company has exploited the system, and expensive abuse that has cost our nation tax revenue and domestic investment.  Indeed, Microsoft's shell game is a bit strange -- it typically develops products like Windows and then transfers the licenses for free to an Ireland subsidiary.  This subsidiary then proceeds to sell them, free of U.S. taxes.

Mr. Bosworth states, "What Microsoft wants to do is deduct the cost at a high tax rate and report the profits at a low tax rate.  Relative to where they are now, the administration’s proposals are less favorable, so there will be some rebalancing on their part."

Symantec Corp. and some smaller companies such as privately held Bentley Systems, an Exton, Pennsylvania-based maker of engineering software, carry out similar practices and are similarly opposed to the measure.  Symantec says it’s frustrated with being called a tax cheat.  Symantec Chairman John Thompson adds, "It is a little bit ironic that most of our most significant trading partners and partners globally have taken the tack that they’ll reduce corporate tax rates to stimulate economic growth and not raise corporate tax rates." 

Mr. Ballmer, perhaps the most outspoken critic, did acknowledge that the Obama proposal preserved research and experimentation cost tax breaks.  He warned, though, that the cuts to foreign exemptions would raise the cost of Microsoft's 56,552 U.S. employees.  He says this could necessitate moving them overseas.  Microsoft was previously embroiled in a controversy over whether it should lay off foreign workers before U.S. ones. 



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But!
By Zstream on 6/4/2009 9:21:23 AM , Rating: 2
But, but... we need free healthcare for all! We need to give people who are literally idiots a place to work. We need to give everyone money so they can have more kids and not work. We need to prop up the illegal aliens and provide them with money (not like there is a legal way to do thinks, seesh).

Money, money moneh! For everyone!




RE: But!
By invidious on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/4/2009 6:30:22 PM , Rating: 5
:-) Compared how Bush was spending money Obama is counting every cent.

I think it is ugly how egotistic people are. Of course one should pay taxes so the society can function for all even those which aren't able to provide for them self.

Here is some food for thought.

I live in one of most heavy taxed countries in the world (it's us or Sweden that are #1). Gas cost 7 bucks per gallon, you buy one car but pay for three because of taxes, there is a 25% sales tax on every thing, income tax can reach 60%+ for high income....

All this may suck however:
- The government financial numbers aren't red.
- All education is free and there are even like a thousand bucks per month to let you pay rent, food and all while you study.
- Health care is free except you pay some for prescription drugs and dentist work is not free except for those on welfare.
- There is very little violence on the Global Peace Index we rank #2, or so, while the US is like #82.
- We have like no corruption (like the other Nordic countries)
- Nobody has to live on the street - ever.
- Work weeks are 37 hours. You get at least 5 weeks paid vacation every year.
- Parents get a combined total of 84 weeks maternity leave for every child. Many get full pay during that time and your are sure to get at least something like 3 grand a month.

And big surprise we are the most happy nation in the world.

http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=1117...

Spend right the tax money can make a country rich and happy. It takes time but try to imagine just living in a place where every one can go to college and nobody has to live on the street or worry about health insurance.


RE: But!
By CommodoreVic20 on 6/4/2009 6:57:31 PM , Rating: 2
I love your country. I am a U.S. citizen and live in the U.S., what is the immigration policy over there?


RE: But!
By joos2000 on 6/5/2009 1:14:23 AM , Rating: 2
RE: But!
By srgill on 6/5/2009 5:10:53 AM , Rating: 3
Well I doubt merely immigrating is going to get you all those free education and health care benefits. I am going out on a limb and guessing you need to be a citizen to obtain that.

So perhaps the question should be, what's the policy on obtaining citizenship and are you ready to give you your US citizenship to do so?

Most countries would require you to be a tax paying resident for several years first. So while your paying 60% on your earnings a year for what, 5 years.. you can think how much that free education is worth to you when you quit your job assuming your application for citizenship is successful...


RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/5/2009 8:34:52 AM , Rating: 2
It used to very easy to get into the system here but it had to be changed due to lots of immigrants arriving with little skills past being able to collect well fare.

I think the system now is pretty much like everywhere else including the US. Still even if you're not a citizen it is not like you will be left out on the street.

The 60% tax is reached when you make more than $100.000 or so per year and it is a sliding scale so only what you make above that will be taxed like that. So I would say if you was not able to go to university in the US due to lack of funds and see no way to get there - an option could be to come here, become a citizen and then get that university education. This would of course take like a decade so you may perhaps better think of it as a way to ensure your future kids get to go to university regardless of your financial situation.


RE: But!
By jhb116 on 6/5/2009 10:48:47 AM , Rating: 5
Maybe I'm reading this wrong - but it sounds like you reach the 60% tax rate much sooner than that. Alot of people make the mistake of stopping the tax burnden at the federal income tax. It sounds like your taxes for the rich are closer to 80% including the sales tax, taxes on cars and the price of gas. I'll bet you are (assuming you less than that 100K 'rich class') so you are probably paying 60+% in taxes.

Alot of people in the US don't realize that they won't be able to afford these big stinking houses, multiple TV's, game systems, computers, cars ect ect ect. People need to smarten up - each system has it advantages and disadvantages. The US system allows people much more opportunity to prosper where many of the EU nations provide so much but at huge costs. You can't have both.....


RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/5/2009 1:14:25 PM , Rating: 2
I did simplify things a bit.

While there are sales tax on anything you buy in a shop (with a few exceptions) it is not the case with housing. Also there are tax deductions for commuting, donations to fx. the Red Cross, interest you pay on loans, money you put in a pension fund and you should you be paying alimony you can deduct that as well (it's meant to help the party bringing you the kid(s) not to encourage divorces).

But in principle you are of course right taxes are not just income tax but putting together the numbers is a complex business and totally dependent on what you buy, what you earn and so on.


RE: But!
By Viditor on 6/6/2009 12:15:06 PM , Rating: 2
60% tax rate???
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.ht...

Correct me if I'm wrong but the highest bracket is 35% (for over $372k) as far as I know...and while there are other taxes (like most countries), the US has some of the highest rate of deductions as well.
Here in Aus for example, tax on $180k is $90k (plus medicare 1.5%, council fees which is like state tax, and 10% GST on everything you buy). But, more importantly, almost nothing is deductible...
For example, in the US you can deduct your mortgage interest...not here.

The US has some of the lowest tax rates in the world, at least net net they do...


RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/6/2009 6:23:00 PM , Rating: 2
I was not talking about US tax rates but about the tax rate in Denmark which is like the highest in the world. Only people forget how much we get for those money.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/6/2009 9:23:42 AM , Rating: 2
What they need to start realize is that the US doesn't afford to import (all consumer tech are imports) much more then the eastern european countries do. US is not really a low tax country. You have to pay for what you use/do. It's also a high cost country. Especially when considering all the costs, taxes + private insurance and pension schemes. Administration costs in health care are higher then any other country. You got as much tax money going in to health care as Sweden who has universal health care does. (as % of GDP). It's not buying ridiculous large houses that's causing your trade deficit however. Its all the cheap and expensive stuff you buy from China, Taiwan, Japan etc. And inefficiencies in your system. In a country like Sweden most live in their own houses btw. And are very much individuals.

Take this for example the taxes for self employed in the US in essentially on par with taxes for self employed in Sweden! So you won't have higher costs here! We also encourage people to run their own business a lot. It also means that having an employee doesn't cost more here then in the US. It just means taxes instead of obligatory fees. Like HMOs. Getting rid of taxes essentially just means getting fees instead (and they are usually higher). As more privatization you has the more it costs for the most time. In a country like Sweden private schools usually get more money then communal schools but it's still payed by the local government and tax revenue. I.e. increases tax pressure on you. All this doesn't mean the government should run car companies, Sweden don't. Helping business is not communismen however neither does it make those businesses inefficient. It's different for services where the state is both the payer and employer. For normal businesses they still need to cater their customers and adhere to market forces. No matter if it's owned directly by the state or through pension funds. They still has a incentive to make profit.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/5/2009 8:45:04 AM , Rating: 4
Actually higher eduction like college and university is free for foreign students, they just need to show they can pay for living expenses and that's pretty tough for people from Africa, but if your some high communist party members kid from China or from a rich US family your ok. Health care are given to the same terms to every one who's a resident here. Of course you have to leave if you lose your job when you got a work permit as the work permit is for that specific job or get a new one. But you got tree months to look for another job. If unable to find a job and with no money you can contact the police to get sent home at the states expense but that's about it. (You can get welfare if you have been here for more then tree months till the day the police sends you home so starving is not necessary). Otherwise it's the immigration bureaus responsibility. But that's for asylum seekers.

It's just when your on a visit to Sweden you have to pay cash for your health expenses (and should therefore have some type of insurance from home for it.). There's no deal between Sweden and the US that pays for any medical expenses. It's not on common with conventions signed between countries that cover some expenses though. And residents within EEA are insured through there home countries when just on a visit.

Becoming a neutralized citizen is quit hard - see here: http://migrationsverket.se/english/emedborg/emedbo... As said 5 years before you can become a citizen and apply for a student loan (+student grant). And live on welfare for the rest of your life. Without being kicked out from the country. So well if you can get a work here and are uninsured and sick it might cost less to move to Sweden to get treatment. But if you can do that you could probably get a job with a adequate health insurance in the US. It's not like people are flooding in to get medical treatment and health care.


RE: But!
By sbtech on 6/5/2009 4:33:47 AM , Rating: 5
So, I can study, like for ever and some idiot will work his ass off, and pay 60% tax so govt can finance my "study" time? Nice nice - for me, that is. I just have to make sure I brush my teeth twice a day, eh?

If I am "penalized" by so high taxes, wonder why I would ever try to work, at least in the high income bracket.

You say your country is a happy country? Yeah sure, for those who don't work, or work but not ambitious enough to reach higher places. Once I reach over a certain income bracket, I would definitely try to move out of your country - resulting in a brain drain.

Please oh God, please. Don't let the US be like this. Let effort be rewarded.


RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/5/2009 8:18:09 AM , Rating: 3
You have missed the point.

Of course a few people are abusing the system but even so almost everyone are happy to pay their taxes. There is a quality of life in knowing that not only are you and everyone you know ensured a good living but that goes for everybody.

Also remember that while our taxes are high we do not need to spend money on health insurance, college funds, rent-a-cops and so on. If you put all that into an budget and call it tax I think you will find that our taxes aren't really that high - the main difference is really that those things are mandatory.

As for the happy part. We have a level of unemployment similar to the US (maybe even lower lately) and the surveys that asks people how happy they are includes all sorts of people. It's an US made survey so I would assume they made sure it was done right.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/5/2009 8:57:13 AM , Rating: 2
You will have to repay your student loans (largest portion of the student financial help that's available). You can't get student grant money and student loans for more then six years at university level. It's just that higher education is tuition free (even for foreign students on a student visa). That's at least a 40 000 US dollar loan for six years of studying. Most people do work in Sweden, the unemployment is no worse then in the US. Rich people are still rich. Poor is poor.


RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/5/2009 12:48:29 PM , Rating: 2
Eh, Penti. You're giving information for Sweden. It's different in Denmark where for example student loans is not needed unless you want to study and go out every weekend and not have a student job.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/6/2009 9:49:26 AM , Rating: 2
True but you don't really need it in Sweden either if you live with your parents. You can't get student grant/aid forever in Denmark either either way. Schools are state funded in both countries. But a student from US has to pay tuition in Denmark which he hasn't to in Sweden.

Statens Uddannelsesstøtte doesn't give you more money then CSN, except when your not living at home with your parents. So less loans when living in a student appartement. You also have to pay taxes for the grants/aid, which you don't do in Sweden. It doesn't give you a plus economic wise in either country. You have to work in order to make any real amount of money which was my point.


RE: But!
By dxf2891 on 6/5/2009 2:35:04 PM , Rating: 1
Effort without success is what we call failure. In the U.S. it is not a reward system to help those who can't feed themselves. Let's say the place you work goes completely out of business and you get nothing.

Let's say the place you worked was rather large and surrounding business grew and prospered because of the place that you worked. Now you and everyone you know is suddenly out of work and all the places you could get work to tide you over until you found a compatible job, are now out of business.

Are saying that the government (Unemployment payments are the government) should ignore you and everyone you know because if they help you you are being rewarded for your short-sightedness of working in an industry that could destroy your entire community?


RE: But!
By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 9:05:34 AM , Rating: 5
Tell that to the unions who priced themselves out of a job, and killed the rest of the community while they were at it.


RE: But!
By wallijonn on 6/9/2009 6:10:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Effort without success is what we call failure.


Doers that mean that "Success without effort" is the way to get rich? There are plenty of people who would rather sue this or that company to get rich. Or you turn over real estate. Or you start a dot.com. Etc.

Sooner or later the chickens come home to roost. Job out sourcing may be one of those bubbles now that the job less rate has gone up and the real estate bubble has burst, leaving municipalities in the lurch, without income taxes to cover costs. Spiro Agnew would be proud.


RE: But!
By hyvonen on 6/6/2009 3:39:08 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You say your country is a happy country? Yeah sure, for those who don't work, or work but not ambitious enough to reach higher places. Once I reach over a certain income bracket, I would definitely try to move out of your country - resulting in a brain drain.


That's because you think money=everything. Maybe you'll reconsider when you reach your "higher place" after 20 years of 60h work weeks, just to realize that your wife is divorcing you for never being home, and your kids don't recognize you.


RE: But!
By Spuke on 6/11/2009 1:33:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That's because you think money=everything.
Money ISN'T everything. But what the hell is wrong with hard work and reaping the benefits of that work. If someone is happy working 60 hrs a week, then have at it. Are we all only supposed to be satisfied with doing no more than our neighbors? Some of us have goals and aspirations that the person next door doesn't have and we live in a country where we can pursue those aspirations without penalty. I came from below the poverty level and had a single parent. I'm was a prime candidate for gang membership and should be in jail right now according to statistics. I have a degree and a great job that pays good and has good benefits. I also have a wife that has a degree, a career and also gets paid well with good benefits. We live a good life and are reaping the rewards of hard work.

Was I supposed to be satisfied with doing what my peers were doing? My peers were poor, gang members, had criminal records, etc. Sure others were not in this category but they worked hard to not be where their peers are and so did I. How does one instill a drive in a person growing up under those conditions to rise past those conditions but at the same time tell that person that they can only go so far? LOL! Because your "neighbors" will eventually think you've gone "too far" with your success?

NO! If you are angry at my success, wealth, or lifestyle you'll just have to be mad. I apologize to no one.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/5/2009 6:14:47 AM , Rating: 2
Actually it's Denmark who has the highest taxes. However Sweden still has cheaper (labor cost in total) autoworkers then the US.


RE: But!
By KingConker on 6/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: But!
By Penti on 6/5/2009 9:15:25 AM , Rating: 4
The biggest difference is really that Sweden don't have 30+ years of trade deficit in it's recent past dragging it down. It (we) adopted neoliberal policies too. Giving up Keynesian ideas and a regulated currency. And of course due to social democratic rule we where not really afraid of the word socialism. That didn't stop us from illegally monitoring communists though. It didn't hinder us from enjoying James Bonds movies or anything hollywood either.

Trade surplus and spending much less on health care got us to were we are. And of course not borrowing money for wars and finance big budget deficits with. We spend much less on administration costs in health care then US just because it's better regulated with less players involved. You spend as much tax money on health care as we does. But we manage to provide universal health care with the same amount of money.


RE: But!
By hyvonen on 6/6/2009 3:53:02 PM , Rating: 2
+1. Way too much money in US health care goes to:
1) insurance companies that are for-profit organizations (unnecessary middle-man not present in a universal health care system)
2) billing administration (result of insurance company policies - also not present in a universal health care)
3) treating diseases too late; more expensive than preventative treatment that never took place (because patients didn't want to pay the still-high fee, and waited until it was absolutely necessary)

These inefficiencies could be reduced or eliminated in a universal health care system, resulting in cost savings. But there are too many powerful players that would lose their paycheck if that happens, that it's better for them to scream "socialists!" and hope for status quo.


RE: But!
By goobersnotch on 6/5/2009 11:04:13 AM , Rating: 5
On the flip side you have England, a country as equally socialist if not moreso than yours, and they have a huge problem with unemployed people living off the hard work of others because the govt pays them to live indefinately.

Yes your country may be the happiest and yes everyone is reaping the benefits of paying high taxes by sharing their wealth and allowing people to have a free education and health care, but is your country at the frontier of technology? When you force everyone to share and be as close to equal as possible, you create a society where people hardly advance because there is less need for competition and less need for people to outdo each other. Surely the benefit is that people don't fall back, but not allowing failures to fail is quite contrary to "survival of the fittest" if you ask me. It doesn't benefit society at all to keep the weak around as long as possible at the expense of the strong.

And claiming "no corruption/crime" is a result of your socialist society is wrong. Japan is one of the most capitalist countries in the world and has an absurdly low crime rate. Surely there are much different factors to consider when it comes to that, and it has nothing to do with how much people are taxed.

The US may not be a perfect society for everyone, but that's the way it is here. It is a country for people who have what it takes to earn their living. If you don't have what it takes, I suppose you could always move to Canada and mooch off their govt.


RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/5/2009 2:43:23 PM , Rating: 2
I never claimed low crime was a result of a socialist society. Our low crime is because of many things but for sure a major factors are good education and nobody being poor as all are at least what you'd properly call lower-middle class.

In Denmark 61 out of 100.000 people are in prison in the US that number is 760 out of 100.000. Just imagine the amount of hardship, suffering behind those numbers.

As for technology I think we are very much at the forefront as a general high education level and a good climate for business will do that. Some 20% of our electricity comes from wind power, we are doing great in biotech, medicine, architecture, space tech, green tech... broadband internet usage in 2007 was 31.8% (US 21.4%)... the biggest Microsoft development department outside the US is in this country. Obama is looking at us for inspiration into using IT in the health sector and the list goes on.

I'm am sorry but your "survival of the fittest" theory is only relevant in a world where there is a lack of resources. In our world carrying for "the weak" is part of what makes us human and I really do hope you're not serious about that "at the expense of the strong" thing. That philosophy is right out of the mouth of some Austrian painter some 7-8 decades ago!


RE: But!
By rcc on 6/5/2009 4:48:37 PM , Rating: 3
I think his point was that if there is little reward in exceling, there is no motivation to excel. You end up with a static system of mediocraty.

I'm glad you're happy there, many of us wouldn't be.

Fortunately, there is room for all of us. :)


RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/5/2009 6:25:14 PM , Rating: 2
If that was his point then he has some wrong assumptions. Of course there are rewards for being successful it is not like everyone gets the same. There are danish companies in the Global 1000 with the top one being in spot #131 and there are Danish billionaires, exotic cars sell pretty well over here and so on.

It seems to me that many in the US think that just because nobody is left to live on the street then everybody has to be just making due. That is a big misunderstanding and for example our social safety net means one can take chances starting one own company without it meaning no medical coverage for ones family.

The whole reason I started this information campaign is not to say we are right or the US is wrong. It is simply to point out that while making money is great making money AND making sure there is ample support for those who can't is even greater and that is where the taxes come in.


RE: But!
By hyvonen on 6/5/2009 7:19:41 PM , Rating: 2
+1. This is exactly how it is, and I think it's beautiful. This is why I say the (Northern) European model works.

A lot of people commenting here see the word "socialism" and think of long lines for food stamps, health care clinics etc... too much propaganda was spread during the cold war.


RE: But!
By William Gaatjes on 6/6/2009 5:47:38 AM , Rating: 3
Indeed, i totally agree.

These people fail to see that when you take the burden away of having to worry about your next meal or if you still have a roof over your head next month, you actually have time to think about life and how to use that free time in a good way. In our countries we have the time and the chance to solve our personal problems. To grow by studying and thus use that gained knowledge to get a the job you always wanted, start that new hobby, meet new friends, helping people out who can use some help. It is no longer about having to be a hunter/gatherer. Because being a hunter /gatherer is being more of an animal then being a human : Your reptilian brain is more in control then your cortex is. And when a human does not think but acts instinctively the chance of behaving antisocial becomes a reality. And thus criminal behaviour is born.

http://thesop.org/index.php?article=4453



RE: But!
By hyvonen on 6/6/2009 4:00:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The US may not be a perfect society for everyone, but that's the way it is here . It is a country for people who have what it takes to earn their living.


Doesn't mean that that's the way it has to be in the future. Things change, sometimes even improve.

It doesn't benefit society at all to keep the weak around as long as possible at the expense of the strong.

Are you one of those that believe elderly should be given (expensive) medical care because they don't benefit the society anymore? They shouldn't stay around at the expense of the strong?


RE: But!
By Octoberblue on 6/5/2009 12:48:06 PM , Rating: 4
There's one reason why socialist countries can survive, and that is because America has not been a socialist country. Historically we have been producers, so your little socialist hamlet gets all kinds of superior prescription drugs, medical equipment and techniques because WE developed them. Socialist countries are not able to create wealth for anyone else, or even themselves. All of the wealth that they have is because of the success of non-socialist countries. If the US goes on down the socialist track, our economy will tank and so will yours.


RE: But!
By William Gaatjes on 6/5/2009 2:01:07 PM , Rating: 3
You really think we do not have any industry of our own do you ? Socialist countries always had very good industries delivering high quality products for a decent price. These industries are still alive. We may produce for example less medicines but that is because we do not allow medicines with to much side effects on the market. However, because of using the loose cannon free market approach we are flooded with cheap medicines with side effects nobody ever heard of. And guess where these midecines where developed ? For as far as i am concerned, you can keep them.
The US has done great many things but has it's many flaws as well. Luckely here in europe we are all sure about one thing . The friedman market principle does not work and never has. Non stop consuming is required and that is something that is just not possible with finite resources.

On a sidenote :
You have to realise that peace on this earth cannot be accomplished by one big country. We all need to work together and the best way is a socialist free market.

A loose cannon free market approach just changes a captalist country into a hidden communistic capitalist country. Because nobody really has a choice. The people just think they have it. Your new president is doing great things. Be happy with it.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/6/2009 8:31:49 AM , Rating: 1
Mixed-economies in Europe have developed plenty of drugs and technical innovation. Much have moved away due to market liberalization and become multinational however. Everything doesn't come from the US. Which publicly founds most of said innovations any way. The US is an important market for the innovations though. The Comecon did a lot for the developing world even if you do not wish to acknowledge it. But then again markets are important. Comecon provided one where much of the money went to the developing world and the new world market that appeared after the collapse provided many other opportunities for those who where not excluded.

Even socialist countries in the sense of soviet influenced countries didn't like budget deficits like you do. They corrected their economies like the US are unable too. Your economy has already tanked. It has gone for 30 years without a correction. Spending mostly occur during conservative leadership. Stop borrowing and Walmart will have no goods on it's shelfs. Btw Comecon markets where sanctioned from importing advanced technology, that's why they had copies. And western europe had licensed produced goods. Or there own tech witch they illegally exported to the soviet block :)


RE: But!
By TSS on 6/8/2009 3:13:41 PM , Rating: 1
last year america was the no.1 country in the world with a trade deficit. you guys imported more then any other country in the world (even beating the combined EU's trade deficit).

the number 1 country with a trade surplus? Communistic China. the number 2 country? Socialistic Germany.

america isn't a producer and hasn't been for the past 25 years. you guys are consumers extreme, sending trillions to the middle east and asia.

i wouldn't even call it kapitalism anymore. there isn't any competing. just consuming.


RE: But!
By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 9:02:55 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, I love all your "free" socialist benefits. Too bad everyone is paying the vast majority of their wages to the government where it is essentially wasted on those who won't work. What incentive does anyone have to actually contribute to society? If they succeed, they are punished. If you fail, you are rewarded.

Great system.


RE: But!
By Grast on 6/6/2009 12:27:13 PM , Rating: 1
If you really are a citizen of Sweden, then good for you for living in a Socialist society. How about you butt out of U.S. business and shut-up. Your opinion on how my country tax and what services are offered is our buisness.

Why dont you go surrender the Germany or Russia and shut the hell up. I could care less about Sweden's socialist view.

Later idiot.


RE: But!
By hyvonen on 6/6/2009 3:34:41 PM , Rating: 1
I sense jealousy...

What I'm saying is that the "socialist" society under discussion here seems to work well (=my opinion, but some others seem to agree), and US would benefit from implementing some of those "socialist" programs (universal health care, heavily subsidized college education...).

And since I live in the US and pay taxes here, is it my business. If you can't contribute anything useful to the discussion, please shut up yourself.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/7/2009 10:16:06 AM , Rating: 1
He's danish, both Sweden and Denmark is however currently ran by Conservatives. But you wouldn't know it seems. But the scale is different here Obama is much more conservative. Neoliberalism, market liberalization and deregulation was very prevalent in Europe. Doesn't mean we did get rid of universal health care though and it doesn't mean you can't have it.


RE: But!
By dare2savefreedom on 6/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: But!
By BZDTemp on 6/7/2009 8:40:00 AM , Rating: 1
Wauw - seems obvious you know very little of the world. Do we have a Fox viewer here :-)

Just so you know Denmark was in Iraq, we have headed the flotilla of ships taking care of the African pirates and we have people in Afghanistan. In fact looking at the number of casualties vs population Denmark is the coalition country which have lost most of it's sons in the fighting in Afghanistan so I think you should shut up. Our guys are based in the Hellman province and it is where most of the heavy fighting is happening at this stage.

We should not have been in Iraq and in fact we only went there because of the US lies about WMD and Al-Qaeda . Are you proud of those lies? Are you proud of the way your "police" used torture sanctioned by Bush and his henchmen? Are you proud of the concentration camp that is Guantanamo?

Yes, I ride a bike but I also have a Japanese sports car and with regards to oil Denmark is exporting oil. Thanks to economic cars (as in NOT trucks), houses that are not card board boxes and green energy we have more oil than we can use :-)

As for me talking shit I did no such thing you're the one making it personal. I have commented that I think the US should consider doing things differently and that taxes done right can lead to a better life for all. I find it egotistic to think of part of ones earning going to those less fortunate. I'm shocked there are even some people reacting with "survival of the fittest"-theories which is something straight out that Austrian painters mouth (Yes, that is Hitler I refer to). Seems I hit a nerve you!

I did not make the surveys I quoted and in fact some of them was done by the US. Instead of taking it personally and reacting like a Fox host why don't you think about how come high taxes and personal happiness works out.

Oh, and as for D-day. Yes. It was a good think the US helped out Europe back then and no one here has forgotten that. But since you bring it up exactly what part did you play in that?

WWII is a long time ago and while a I have high praises for what the US, Canada, India and other countries not directly under threat from Hitler. I do not even want to speculate about the reasons as to why the US did not join in earlier as it is the end result that matters.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/7/2009 9:57:14 AM , Rating: 1
Sweden is not a NATO country neither do we have any US military bases or nukes like Germany. Still we contribute forces world wide for peace keeping and UN missions. We're not leeching of anyone. Damn even Finland manage to keep the peace with the Soviet union without becoming some US puppet state full of military bases. No aid has ever gone to Sweden as it was an untouched country after WW2. You were busy propping up military right wing dictators with billions of AID and deployment of nuclear weapons, not ensuring peace for all. Sweden was never occupied.

Btw Sweden patrols the horn of Africa with three Corvetts.

HOW ARE WE GETTING THAT OIL?

May be we produce it in the north fucking sea and Norwegian sea. Stop being retarded, Swedens oil come from Denmark, Norway and Russia. I.e. Denmark has much more then it needs something the US doesn't. Stop being so fucking ignorant, narrow minded and clueless. Your totally and completely of on this one.


RE: But!
By sprockkets on 6/7/2009 2:46:37 AM , Rating: 2
Not to mention all the women in your country are tall and hot.


RE: But!
By phxfreddy on 6/8/2009 7:23:08 AM , Rating: 2
WTF? What is up with the DT rating system? This socialist clown rants about how Obama, who is spending in deficit to the tune of 2 trillion whilst at the same time proposing every new program under the sun!!??? ....

Obama is outspending Bush by 4:1 minimum! ... worse yet he has the federal reserve printing unsuppporte fiat money.

All this and you mod him up to +5.

DT management needs to look at their system...its been hacked. The fools are in charge.

Unfortunately when the narcissist presidente Obama gets done we are going to look fondly back on Bush to some degree....and that will take some doing!


RE: But!
By wsgroves on 6/9/2009 8:54:34 AM , Rating: 2
BDZTemp, you state that spending the tax money in the right way can make a country rich and happy.
I totally agree.

The problem in the States now though is that our gov. only intends to destroy America, not make it rich and happy. Well maybe themselves happy. I wish it was not so but it just shows you how smart people over here are anymore!!


RE: But!
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 9:41:16 AM , Rating: 2
I hope they do start to pick up and move jobs overseas to show the government that socialism and entitlement have no place here. Taxation is nothing more than redistribution of wealth, no matter how you spin it. I find it so ironic that the left wants to stop rewarding businesses for failure...yet they want to reward lazy people for failure.

Like Maggy Thatcher once said "Socialism is only good until you run out of everybody elses money".

I like to say, Socialism only works until they stop giving their money to you....which I hope Microsoft leads by example.


RE: But!
By MrBungle123 on 6/4/2009 11:47:53 AM , Rating: 2
I hate to say it but I agree with you...

If it takes companies packing up and moving for people to realize what makes the world go round then so be it. Its going to suck but lets get this over with so we can move on.

The leftists that took over the school system decided not to teach history and gave us a generation of ignorant idealoges so now we all get to relearn these things the hard way.


RE: But!
By FeralMisanthrope on 6/4/2009 11:57:10 AM , Rating: 3
There exists a redistribution of wealth that is inherent to our economic system, where wealth is redistributed to the wealthy. Money is allowed to gravitate towards greater concentrations of money, forming black holes of wealth. These black holes are able to generate ever greater wealth without producing anything of value; literally sucking our nation's prosperity out of the hands that produced it.

Any attempt to stifle these gravitational forces is instantly met with bombastic cries of "Socialism!" or even "Communism!" from those with power and influence (i.e. the wealthy). The cacophony of manufactured outrage that permeates our collective consciousness sustains the convergence of wealth by convincing the rest of us that it is a good thing.

For decades, the wages of the productive classes have been held down to maximize shareholder value (the primary obligation of any corporation) and supplemented with ever greater lines of credit. Now that the majority of Americans have been squeezed to the breaking point and have nothing left to mortgage our economic system is collapsing under its own weight. Is it any coincidence that the concentration of wealth that we see today mirrors that which existed prior to the Great Depression?

No one is advocating some communist-style redistribution of wealth, but laissez-faire capitalism is not sustainable. The opportunities to exploit the system have to be kept in check.


RE: But!
By MrPeabody on 6/4/2009 12:07:26 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
For decades, the wages of the productive classes have been held down to maximize shareholder value


I'm a productive fellow, and I'm also a shareholder. Now what?


RE: But!
By MrPoletski on 6/5/2009 4:47:55 AM , Rating: 2
Rip yourself off!


RE: But!
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 12:54:55 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
generate ever greater wealth without producing anything of value

Wow, talk about dream land. When was the last time someone with no money created jobs and paid their employees to produce things? Only people with money to invest can create jobs, I hate to break it to you.
quote:
is instantly met with bombastic cries of "Socialism!" or even "Communism!" from those with power and influence (i.e. the wealthy).

False. Middle class cries these as well. In fact, the only ones I don't see having a problem with it are the poor who have no money so they don't worry about taxation, and the people who inherited the wealth so its already been taxed leaving them no worries either.
quote:
wages of the productive classes have been held down to maximize shareholder value (the primary obligation of any corporation)

Do you still make the same amount as you did decades ago? If so, I think you better start blaming something other than just those "evil corporations".
quote:
Now that the majority of Americans have been squeezed to the breaking point and have nothing left to mortgage our economic system

We're in this mess because we did mortgage our economic system. You can buy something with money you don't have. A federal stimulus package only boosts numbers, until you have to pay it back.
quote:
Is it any coincidence that the concentration of wealth that we see today mirrors that which existed prior to the Great Depression?

You mean because we have people who were there, and people who are now, fiscally responsible, smart, and have taken their educations seriously to market themselves as high in demand workers? What coincidence - I thought thats what you were supposed to do?
quote:
No one is advocating some communist-style redistribution of wealth,

On the contrary - taxation is redistribution of wealth, no matter how you spin it. And welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, universal health care, unemployment, cap & trade....anything for social welfare programs ARE communist. Take from the successful and give just enough to the unsuccessful so they are dependent on you, you control them, and you own their vote.


RE: But!
By metasin on 6/4/2009 1:45:50 PM , Rating: 5
Another "greedy evil rich folk" idea I can't stand is the accumulation of wealth idea. This propaganda about the wealthy hoarding all their money is complete and utter nonsense. The only purpose of which is to promote class envy and reinforce the “victim” mentality. Where does Warren Buffett keep all his billions? In a hole in his yard? No. It is invested in financial mechanisms that allow other companies and investors to have access to liquidity to create jobs and wealth which benefits all of us. That money is doing the "little guy" more good invested than it would if it was divided up and given to all the "working" people in the country.


RE: But!
By FeralMisanthrope on 6/4/2009 2:16:28 PM , Rating: 5
400 Americans now have more money stashed away than the combined bottom 150 million Americans. Some $1.6 trillion bucks. This was accomplished by selling off or shipping out every available asset, from jobs to seaports, smashing usury and anti-monopoly laws, raiding the public coffers, manipulating the medium of exchange and blackmailing the peasantry regarding common needs such as heath care and energy to keep their asses warm, to name a few.

The ultimate coup was to convince the entire nation that the well being of the rich, meaning the well being of Wall Street, was indeed the common man’s well being. Wages have consistently lagged behind the rate of inflation, while CEO compensation has skyrocketed by comparison. Had the minimum wage risen as fast as CEO compensation since 1980, it would now be around $55 an hour. Executive compensation is money that can't be used to hire more workers or increase wages.

Buying and selling stock does not create jobs. Buying and selling goods does. The financial services industry represented 40% of our GDP without producing anything tangible. This was loan-sharking on the grandest of scales. Things have reached the point where there's simply nothing left to defraud the public out of, nothing left to steal from the nation’s productive capability.

Don't like socialism? Fine. Get rid of all publicly funded education, police, fire departments, public libraries, the postal service, and all the other institutions that have made our nation's productive capability possible.


RE: But!
By HueyD on 6/4/2009 4:51:50 PM , Rating: 5
We should get rid of all FEDERALLY funded projects and leave it up the the STATES to decide. It the State wants to fund public schools fine, but keep the Federal out of it.
The only job of the Federal Gov't is to keep the States safe from external threats and to sign treaty's


RE: But!
By afkrotch on 6/5/2009 10:57:55 AM , Rating: 2
Umm....US States do fund public schools. Public schools are funded via National, State, and Local. It's also run that way. Hence the whole State Board of Education and Local Board of Education.


RE: But!
By HueyD on 6/5/2009 1:19:57 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I know the State and local gov't help fund the schools, but a large part of their funding comes from the federal gov't.


RE: But!
RE: But!
By Keeir on 6/4/2009 6:34:49 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Wages have consistently lagged behind the rate of inflation, while CEO compensation has skyrocketed by comparison.


Sorry, your wrong on wages lagging behind inflation

Wages
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/awidevelop.html

Inflation
http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_r...

Over the course of 2001 to 2007
Inflation Increase : 20.4%
Wage Increase : 22.6%

Given the discrete source events that occured in this time frame, a general wage increase over inflation is acceptable

If we examine the time period 1991-2000
Wage Increase: 47.4%
Inflation Increase: 31.8%

Much more typically, although this was a good decade.


RE: But!
By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 9:18:15 AM , Rating: 2
Most of that was under a president who taxed the bejesus out of everyone.


RE: But!
By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 9:17:01 AM , Rating: 2
Wrong. Buying stock does create jobs. How in the hell do you think companies raise capital to expand and create new jobs. You are an idiot.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/6/2009 10:10:31 AM , Rating: 2
Depends on who your buying the stocks from.


RE: But!
By Yawgm0th on 6/5/2009 12:55:57 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Do you still make the same amount as you did decades ago? If so, I think you better start blaming something other than just those "evil corporations".
Actually, accounting for inflation, the average American makes substantially less than decades ago.

quote:
On the contrary - taxation is redistribution of wealth, no matter how you spin it.
Which is why being philosophically against any taxation simply because it is taxation is childish at best. Your entire premise implies that everyone is either a communist or believes there should never be taxes.

Do you think we should repeal all taxes, or are you a communist? Is it really a straw man when I ask, given that I'm using your own premise?


RE: But!
By Headfoot on 6/5/2009 3:40:37 PM , Rating: 2
No.

Read the comment with sources directly above your un-sourced claims.


RE: But!
By croc on 6/5/2009 3:51:10 AM , Rating: 2
Privatise everything... Start with the roads, pay per mile * GVW. No need for gas taxes now, eh? Sorry about the food prices, tough luck if you don't have enough.
Next, the health system. Dying? Show your credit card at the door. No more health care costs for businesses, eh?
Next the police. Call emergency, and tell the person your credit card # to get a private policeman out to see you. Want next day service? $50 / hour. Emergency service? $500 / hour, portal to portal. No no need for property taxes.
Legal system? User pays. Judges from $500 / hr. / case, lawyer, well.... Don't forget the courtroom rental, $1000 / day. $2000 evenings and weekends. Now no need for local, state services.
Armed forces? Outsource the lot. All users will be billed on a monthly basis, but in an armed conflict that bill will escalate. Now no need for national defense.

I like it...


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/5/2009 9:45:47 AM , Rating: 3
Many countries with free health care and "socialism" are very successful with large trade surpluses creating every lasting (or new) wealth.

Sweden don't spend a tax dime more on health care then the US does. So for half the cost we get a country that brings in money on it's exports (got a good balance of trade) and provides universal health care at about 8% of GDP compared to US 16% which don't achieve it.

You really must accept that the US isn't a laissez faire economy. It was a high tax country with large government control over industry and still is you just get tax cuts financed by large budgets deficits witch you have to borrow your own money from abroad to finance. It's administration costs in health care are huge compared too countries that got more regulation in health care i.e. "socialized medicin".

The subprime loan and housing bubble is just a tip of the iceberg. The real problem is large before the Obama gov 800 billion budget deficits witch is really there because the 700 billions trade deficit. Which is why many us critics have long foretold of a collapse. US is borrowing wealth since well the 70's. Instead of correcting it's economy like any other country would be force to do. Markets needs working rules and are effected by many things.


RE: But!
By Ringold on 6/4/2009 1:37:37 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
These black holes are able to generate ever greater wealth without producing anything of value; literally sucking our nation's prosperity out of the hands that produced it.


When companies expand production or service capacity, and thus create jobs, where do you think that money comes from? The stock market and the bond market. Who puts their money in to those? People with wealth, and people trying to build wealth. Astounding, those peoples audacity, expecting something in return for companies borrowing their money! This cycle seems socially beneficial to me, even if you think a "rich" individual have ill-gotten gains, the money is still recycled via financial markets and banks back in to the wider economy.


RE: But!
By BiuTech on 6/4/2009 6:54:16 PM , Rating: 4
The present and past US administrations have been advocating redistribution of wealth. What do you think these forsaken Stimulus bills were all about, definitely not "stimulus." What else do you think this gravitates towards but Socialism. I wouldn't doubt that our founding fathers are spinning in their graves from the idiocy of all this. And it's not that capitalism is not sustainable, our debt is not sustainable. We have lived beyond our means.


RE: But!
By joos2000 on 6/5/2009 2:20:19 AM , Rating: 3
Well said, I would uprate this if I could.

What is needed is a good balance between a free market echonomy and socialist echonomy. Companies cannot exist without government to keep it true to society. At some point, greed and shareholder interest will forego the interest in the well being of the society as a whole and everyone in the society (except a clique elite) will suffer deteriorating living standards.

The other way around doesn't work either, since a governments don't work well in the private sector, where competition and constantly increasing demands is necessary.

A fine balance is necessary to create a society that is good for all of its population.


RE: But!
By Penti on 6/5/2009 10:07:00 AM , Rating: 2
Laws and regulation is not socialist. Nobody wants a soviet style system where you only produce by quotas and everything (resources) has to be assigned by the government. It just lags every development and only the elites gets the money to play with. It managed to create wealth and stability which is why they don't look back to it with horror, but the people ultimately toppled it and began market reform. Which was not always successful. For example eastern european countries use must less fossil fuels then during the communist years. Regulation don't mean you don't have markets you actually need regulation to have a market. Besides competition even existed in the Soviet union with firms competing for contracts. Their biggest problem was that they didn't have a market economy in the sense of supply and demand. Producing what you can sell..


RE: But!
By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 9:11:02 AM , Rating: 1
Bullshit. Someone else took time to actually give a coherent response, but your post says that you don't actually have a logical mind, so it's a waste of time. Please don't breed.


RE: But!
By rudy on 6/8/2009 10:11:03 PM , Rating: 2
Here is the real problem, and this is why stupid politicians are always so full of failure.
OK I get both sides of the argument both are right and wrong. It is wrong for bad tax laws to encourage foreign investment over domestic, but at the same time it is a crime to be charging US corps 35% tax making it hard for them to compete in the global economy. What should have been done is to gather support for the tax by offering a tax break. Lower the corp tax to something more reasonable then eliminate the loop hole on foreign profits. Then you end up with only a few companies really getting hurt but most ending up net even.

Similar stupidity was tried in MI a year or 2 ago when they tried to extend sales tax to services but they forgot to give anyone a break any where so there was lots of lobby and support against the measure but very little support for it. It ended up getting repealed and turning into a giant waste of time and money.

The logic is simple apparently to simple for politicians to figure out. If you want to take something away from someone you need to offer them something in return. What is it going to be?


RE: But!
By rudy on 6/8/2009 10:13:35 PM , Rating: 2
I should add the real benefit is more domestic investment in exchange for no loss in revenue. If you make a compromise. But alas politicians never get it they always think you screw one group while benefiting the other rather then trying to keep everything even so no one really gets screwed just adjust the laws to encourage internal growth.


Global Economy
By Bal on 6/4/2009 9:55:29 AM , Rating: 4
Obama is making one very poor assumption, that companies will remain in the US. Any company that takes significant advantage of the current structure will by the very nature of the tax, have the capability to move the core of their organization outside the US.

I honestly think in 8 years (I fully expect stupid public to put him back ion office again) the US will be more like Europe, and China will be the new world US. China may not have the inherent individual freedoms we do, but they sure as hell have the business freedom to move into the position. Hell they own our debt, have been purchasing our companies for years, and all thats left is for them to begin leveraging it.




RE: Global Economy
By invidious on 6/4/2009 10:07:49 AM , Rating: 4
You mean that wasn't the change you voted for?


RE: Global Economy
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:23:37 AM , Rating: 3
Haha.

Like my bumper sticker says: "I'll be my Guns, Religion, & Paycheck. You can keep the change."


RE: Global Economy
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:25:27 AM , Rating: 2
Mean to say "I'll KEEP my Guns, Religion, & Paycheck"

(that's what i get for typing an email at the same time.)


RE: Global Economy
By AMDJunkie on 6/4/2009 10:12:58 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
China may not have the inherent individual freedoms we do, but they sure as hell have the business freedom to move into the position.
That's a very interesting analysis you make there, for the reason that it implicitly presents the argument that business freedom does not equal individual freedom.

But I would not be so sure that China is exactly a laissez-faire economy; workers are migrated from their homes to industries, homeland industries have central planning, etc. I do not think that a communish regime, even if only in name, would have low taxes either. I think you will find that the main concern that companies have is a low TCO. And China would have a very low operating cost; but why is that? It's not just because the government is letting them set up shop for free, I'll say that...


RE: Global Economy
By Iaiken on 6/4/2009 10:55:50 AM , Rating: 5
Business freedom my ass. A former co-worker of mine had his business seized by the Chinese government and handed off to another business because he was a Canadian-born Chinese.

He lawyered up and made a legal stink about it so they deported him and he is now banned for life from returning to China.

If you rock the boat, the Chinese government will simply push you overboard.


RE: Global Economy
By Penti on 6/5/2009 10:11:49 AM , Rating: 2
Actually the US has to start producing goods in the US for export, to being more like Europe, not flee the continent entirely.


RE: Global Economy
By Spuke on 6/11/2009 2:57:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hell they own our debt, have been purchasing our companies for years, and all thats left is for them to begin leveraging it.
No they don't. They own 23% of all of the foreign owned debt. The American people actually own most of our debt.


overseas msoft?
By redeyedfly on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
RE: overseas msoft?
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 11:17:45 AM , Rating: 3
Wouldn't you just rather petition to stop paying, or at least lower, the domestic taxes in order to increase jobs, make more money, and have cheaper & more competitive products?

You'd definitely be blaming the wrong side on this one, and it would be completely counter-productive.


RE: overseas msoft?
By PARANOID365 on 6/4/2009 12:35:17 PM , Rating: 3
Wow, do you really think that you're little base camp matters so much, that your little hissy fit would really make a dent in Microsoft; talk about a megalomania complex !!

Everyone really needs to understand a very simple concept here before this really gets out of hand. If there are no companies, there are no jobs, so then there are no tax revenues, and are little perfect bubble bursts.

Do you actually think , "big business", doesn't have the power to push the government around; it's been happening since the beginning of time, and it will continue whether the government want's to push it's chest out, and act tough, or not.

It's very simple, "money makes the world go round", and big business has it, and we all know the government doesn't have shit, so, "big business has the power"; Period !!

Now you and I may not like any of this one bit, but unless you or I join the ranks of big business, there is not a damn thing we can do about it, and that's just the truth plain and simple.


RE: overseas msoft?
By Kenenniah on 6/4/2009 1:06:15 PM , Rating: 5
Answer me this then. If you have a choice of building a house on one side of a street and paying 12% property tax, or building on the other side and only paying 6%, which would you choose? Or what if your state decided to raise income tax rates to double or triple what other states ask for, would you at least consider moving to another state? Why is it different when it's countries and businesses?


RE: overseas msoft?
By Kenenniah on 6/5/2009 10:57:23 AM , Rating: 3
For example, look at....
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/229...

Think about that for a minute. Consider the fact that the economy is now global and American companies increasingly have to compete with foreign companies. Now imagine 2 businesses, one in the US paying up to 41% in taxes, and the other in Ireland paying 12.5%. If all other factors were equal, which do you think would have a competitive edge? Which would have more money to lower prices and spend on R & D? Of course all other things aren't quite equal, but at what point does the extra tax burden outweigh the benefits of being a US company?

Forget that this article is about Microsft and remember that US tax policy affects all corporations. Microsoft might not have to deal with much foreign competion, but plenty of our other companies do.


RE: overseas msoft?
By rudy on 6/8/2009 10:19:41 PM , Rating: 2
What is important is that M$ knows they will soon have to deal with foreign competition which is why they are making a big deal out of it.

On a funny note I interpreted the article on first read as M$ was going to send Steve Jobs out of the country.


Take that, Apple!
By MrPeabody on 6/4/2009 9:52:35 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Drop Tax Break Cuts or We'll Send Jobs Overseas


I knew that the U.S. president likes his iPod, but I was unaware that his ties with Apple ran so deep.




RE: Take that, Apple!
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:00:01 AM , Rating: 3
How didn't you know? He gave the queen an iPod full of his past speeches that no one cares about.


What a prick
By encryptkeeper on 6/5/2009 10:57:21 AM , Rating: 2
This is a horrible time to stand up and say "We're Microsoft and we don't give a SHIT about the American worker!".




RE: What a prick
By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 11:52:19 AM , Rating: 2
No, that's what Obama's doing.


RE: What a prick
By encryptkeeper on 6/9/2009 8:45:06 PM , Rating: 2
So trying to get the economy rolling, getting people to own homes and trying to keep people working is hurting the American worker how exactly? How else should this mess be fixed? Reduced tax rates aren't the answer, in fact if you look at historical data, they prove that tax breaks don't produce significant economic recovery. I'm pretty sure the guy who managed McCain's campaign said the same thing.

Should we let the WHOLE economic system fail and restart from scratch? Unless someone presents another plan, that's what will happen. Then you'll see some REAL socio-economic problems happen. And when those roll around, you'll see people open to more drastic changes. Don't believe me? Its the same thing that happened in Russia by 1917. Do something to fix it now or shut up.


RE: What a prick
By Spuke on 6/11/2009 3:03:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How else should this mess be fixed?
So there is only one way to fix this?


Close all loopholes
By DigitalFreak on 6/4/2009 10:37:19 AM , Rating: 5
Close all tax loopholes for both individuals and businesses.

Sorry, but "it typically develops products like Windows and then transfers the licenses for free to an Ireland subsidiary. This subsidiary then proceeds to sell them, free of U.S. taxes" is being a tax cheat.




RE: Close all loopholes
By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 11:45:51 AM , Rating: 2
No, it's smart business, and lowers prices for consumers. The real tax cheats are all on Obama's Cabinet, and are the leaders in the Senate and House.


not surprising
By coolkev99 on 6/4/2009 9:47:09 AM , Rating: 2
Not surprising MS would do this. Like many of the Obama admin. proposals and changes, they look good on paper, but no one seems to be looking at the unforeseen consequences.

You have to ask, will this help people get jobs? Consumer confidence will never go up unless people feel secure in thier job, or ability to get one.




RE: not surprising
By nycromes on 6/5/2009 9:42:03 AM , Rating: 2
Pretty simple actually, Obama raises taxes to pay for the programs and spending that his administration is working to/has set up. The jobs leave, more poople become dependent on the govt for basic services (since there are less jobs, higher unemployment) and the cycle continues. After a couple of years, these same people will be unable to make it on their own without said govt programs (same as animals being removed from the wild and being fed by keepers, they lose their abilities to effectively hunt).

The administration will place the blame on business, portray itself as a hero that fights "evil corporations" and get the support for re-election because "the evil republicans will take away these wonderful programs that you are entitled to".

You need to ask yourself if this is an unforseen consequence or a planned outcome.


RE: not surprising
By rcc on 6/5/2009 5:08:00 PM , Rating: 2
lol, you may need to. I don't. They know exactly what they are doing, and why.


This article needs...
By wuZheng on 6/4/2009 9:32:34 AM , Rating: 5
MOARRRRRRRRRRR BALLMER RAGE!




You be the judge
By joshuaheard on 6/4/2009 10:07:53 AM , Rating: 1
Say you have 2 domestic companies, "A" and "B", where A owns all the stock of B. B has a profit, which it pays 35% tax to US government. If B pays the remainder of the profit to A, its owner, A pays a second 35% income tax, for 70% total.

Say you have 2 companies, one domestic, and one foreign, "D" and "F", where D owns all the stock of F. F shows a profit and pays, say 20% tax to the foreign government. If F gives the rest to D, D pays 35% tax to US government, for a total of 55%.

What Obama is proposing is that F pay 35% tax to the US government too, (it is already paying income tax to its host country) for a total of 55% tax on F. Including the 35% tax D pays, D and F together are paying 90% tax.

Ballmer's counter-strategy is to shift more costs to F, which pays a higher tax, by transferring workers (jobs) so that F shows less taxable profit, which is taxed at a higher rate.

Is Obama's proposal a good one?




RE: You be the judge
By jthistle on 6/4/2009 6:14:10 PM , Rating: 3
Bad math

A pays 35% to Gov and 65% to B
B pays 35% of 65% to Gov = 22.75% to Gov
Total amount of profit paid in taxes 57.75%

F pays 20% to foreign gov and 80% to D
D pays 35% of 80% to Gov = 28%
Total amount of profit paid in taxes 48%

Total amount of profit paid in proposed taxes 83%

Microsoft's current strategy is very close to tax evasion. Microsoft is valuing the same item at $0 to avoid higher US taxes and retail price in the foreign country so it only has to pay the lower foreign tax.

More then likely all Balmer has done is open his company up to an IRS audit and a tax code modification to void the current loop hole Microsoft uses.


Do this
By Danger D on 6/4/2009 10:34:33 AM , Rating: 3
Do this, but then lower the corporate tax rate, so that there's not such a discrepency in doing business overseas with doing business here. That would incentivize U.S. investment rather than penalizing foreign investment.




RE: Do this
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:38:01 AM , Rating: 1
Isn't that counter productive? Why not just lower the US corporate tax rate without adjusting anything else? That would create larger profits, higher employment, and lower prices. Isn't that the goal? Or is the real goal just more money for the government's social welfare programs - and who gives a rats ass about private business, private employement, and your pursuit to do with your life as you wish?

I'd say the recent GM/Chrysler deals, bailouts, talks of VAT tax, carbon tax, spending $400M more a year now just for the IRS to find tax evaders, and now talks of raising corporate tax rates...yeah, that pretty much tells me its all about government money. So whos REALLY looking out for you?


Do it, monkey boy
By bersl2 on 6/4/2009 9:34:49 AM , Rating: 1
DO IT




RE: Do it, monkey boy
By easygoer on 6/11/2009 12:46:10 PM , Rating: 2
Hey you racist prick!! To refer to our president as "monkey boy" thats a horrible thing to say! You don't need to be in this free country. It’s obvious you’re afraid of the word Minority (to be different from you is great!)


let see
By UDO99 on 6/4/2009 11:10:58 AM , Rating: 3
I have a good ideal. It's all about the evil goverment. Just stop spending and we don't need to pay taxes. First, close all the public schools, we save a big chunk there. Everyone send the kids in privet schools. We don't need the military, buy guns and fend for yourself. Shut down all the public transportation, and stop the repair on all roads. We can pay toll on every mile we travell on with our cars. And we don't have to worry about price fixing and overcharging, becouse we shut down congress and get rid of all the representatives, they cost too much anyway. We can stop all the garbage collection too. Everyone should store they stuff themself. And we can go on and on. No budget, no taxes, free for all. I think Balmer would love that. And than he still move to China, becouse MS can't grow profit 25% every quarter.




By spagnitz on 6/4/2009 12:23:48 PM , Rating: 3
they know Obama won't give them a special break, but this way they get to blame someone else for outsourcing jobs.




Not Rocket Science
By Ammohunt on 6/4/2009 3:43:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Mr. Bosworth states, "What Microsoft wants to do is deduct the cost at a high tax rate and report the profits at a low tax rate. Relative to where they are now, the administration’s proposals are less favorable, so there will be some rebalancing on their part."


rebalance by microsfost means little to no revenue to tax. The problem is that Obama doesn't have the first clue on how wealth is generated Free economic advice; stimulate wealth generation via tax cuts increases tax revenue this is a fact.




just wondering
By mafart on 6/4/2009 4:07:59 PM , Rating: 2
I take it everyone complaining about taxes in this thread (and others): was educated exclusively in private schools and universities; does maintenance on a few miles of roads each year; took a tour of duty in the military sometime and threw some money into the pot to buy ammo, missiles, armor, etc; and is willing to spend an unpaid night guarding maximum security prisoners with no bars, walls, etc separating them.

I am not saying the current tax system isn't in need of some serious changes. Or that there is a ton of unwanted or unnecessary expenditure. Just that too many of the posts seem to start from a premise that no taxation is acceptable. The person who can say that without any hypocrisy is rare individual who has no sense of expectation or gratitude that the government will provide or fund any (not all) of the above services or hundreds of others.




By overlandpark4me on 6/4/2009 8:52:28 PM , Rating: 2
this country isn't competitive with other countries from a corporate tax perspective. Hopefully we'll have more Howard Beale's out there to tell Obama to stick it up his arse. Blame companies, blame America while you kiss butt overseas. He should take a cue from California which is a tax disaster. You make 47G's a year and 9.3 is gone before the Feds even get a crack at you and then you sales taxed at near 10 percent. No wonder businesses are running for their lives.




YES!!!!
By rbfowler9lfc on 6/4/2009 9:04:58 PM , Rating: 2
YES!!!! Send Jobs overseas right now, we can't stand him anymore. But keep Woz, he's a nice guy....




Isn't this how taxes work?
By rdawise on 6/5/2009 12:26:13 AM , Rating: 2
Okay, I'm not as intelligent as some of you in here but I thought this is how taxes worked. Let's say i live in 1 state, but work in another. I take my WHOLE pay checks and only items and give to charity in the other state. Should I now be exempt from the state taxes in the state I reside. I think this is Obama's arguement.

Microsoft's arguement is that it would be too expensive to keep jobs here, but you're getting taxed because of foreigh profits. Why don't you keep more jobs here, do a little less business overseas, then pay less taxes?

It is also funny how many people link this to Socialism or say that China is so much better. Isn't China Communist? Isn't that what you're against?

If you don't like social programs, don't drive on roads, go to school, go to some hospitals, if you getting robbed don't call the cops, if you're house burns down don't call the fire department. What, you say let the States decide? Would it matter if the socialism is state or federal, it is still socialism. Oh well, like I said I am not as intelligent as some of you.




Obama to CEO
By Zingam on 6/5/2009 1:44:16 PM , Rating: 2
And we will make a federal law that all software in government institutions must be free and open source.




Who Is John Galt
By hiscross on 6/5/2009 6:18:28 PM , Rating: 2
I like Ballmer's idea. Many of the wealthy in Maryland have already changed their residence so they don't get taxed to death. Maybe someday all of the "Thinkers" in this country will move away. Let's see how the looters (liberals) will survive.




Go for it Microsoft
By ICE1966 on 6/7/2009 12:15:49 PM , Rating: 2
I really cannot blame them for what they are doing, they are trying to protect thier interest and company. Want to see jnobs go overseas, raise corporate taxes, thats all you need to do. Obama is your typical democrat that will raise taxes on companies and then complain about jobs being lost and companies closing. We have entirely to much lobbying in this country which equates to nothing but legalized bribery. I see no reason why any company should have to pay a tax rate of 35% for anything. Why should they, simply because they are a company with deep pockets. thats not justifiable at all to me. what we really need is a flat tax rate system. say 12% acroos the board. There should be no exemptions or loopholes in the code. all earnings must be reported and taxed at 12% rate. if you make $25 million a year, you pay 12% tax on that money, and no sheltering of that money anywhere. if you make $15k a year you pay 12%, its really that simple, but will never happen because politicans and lawyers will not get to keep thier money shielded anymore. you pay 12% on what you earn, no mater where the income comes from. everyone in society should shoulder the tax burden and if you do not like it, then reduce the size of government and shore up the cost. people have the power to that here, the constitution grants you that right just stop voting for people in office just because thats what party you have always voted for. Don't vote for someone just because of thier skin color and this is what has happened with the black vote this time. they could careless about the mans ideals but vote for simply because he has the same skin color as me. I know that this happened this time and if you deny it your a complete idiot. I wish Obama the best but he will not help out the average working man.




MS taking jobs overseas
By wallijonn on 6/9/2009 5:08:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The only issue Vista ever had was with older, poorly written software.


Who does this clown think he's kidding? If America doesn't have jobs because all the corporations are sending jobs overseas then few will be able to buy their products. Once he does move to Europe his salary will probably be taxed at >50% and he may find that they will not give him any tax breaks. Since the dollar is weaker against the Euro it'll cost us less to buy. And if someone fills the empty breech he'll lose market share. The plain fact is that overseas tax dollars from profits should be taxed at the same rate as domestic rates.

If he thinks it costs a lot to keep American workers wait until he has to fund Social Medicine, etc. I wonder what he's going to do when they close for the Summer? They like their 6 to 8 week vacations in Europe. Think the Europeans are going to be satisfied with half hour lunches? Unlikely.

His only recourse is to move MS, lock, stock and barrel to India. Good luck with that, Ballmer. I see Cisco moving into your old digs real quick.




cry me a river
By cg0def on 6/10/2009 6:46:49 AM , Rating: 2
You know that something is really wrong with a country when the CEO of a company publicly threatens the government. For what it's worth, I really hope that Obama and Congress hold their ground on this one. You need to remember the founding principles of this country.




What?
By TechIsGr8 on 6/10/2009 12:45:16 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft and Oracle already have a HUGE overseas presence. What kind of a "threat" is this? Tax the h3ll out of them. After all the deductions and breaks that American businesses get in the tax code, our net business tax rate is one of the lowest in the developed world. This is just more greedy bullsh1t from treasonous anti-American US corporations.




By CannedTurkey on 6/11/2009 11:36:36 AM , Rating: 2
What kind of sympathy am I supposed to be feeling?




By chick0n on 6/4/2009 3:04:58 PM , Rating: 1
and the tax system is nothing but a freaking joke.




just wondering
By mafart on 6/4/2009 4:18:43 PM , Rating: 1
I take it everyone complaining about taxes in this thread (and others): was educated exclusively in private schools and universities; does maintenance on a few miles of roads each year; took a tour of duty in the military sometime and threw some money into the pot to buy ammo, missiles, armor, etc; and is willing to spend an unpaid night guarding maximum security prisoners with no bars, walls, etc separating them.

I am not saying the current tax system isn't in need of some serious changes. Or that there is a ton of unwanted or unnecessary expenditure. Just that too many of the posts seem to start from a premise that no taxation is acceptable. The person who can say that without any hypocrisy is rare individual who has no sense of expectation or gratitude that the government will provide or fund any (not all) of the above services or hundreds of others.




By Randomblame on 6/4/2009 7:14:35 PM , Rating: 1
We have all been really lenient here guys, remember the first time you heard "impeach bush"? I think it was election day 2000. I'm gonna be the first to say it: "IMPEACH OBAMA!" OK, I'll give the supreme court a call you guys start building support. I don't know about you guys but if we're all gonna be paying his spending off in the near future I'm gonna want to keep my job!




Wartime Presidency
By fishbits on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
wow
By Chiisuchianu on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
Maybe
By webstorm1 on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: Maybe
By invidious on 6/4/2009 9:35:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If all the businesses oppose it, it might be good for the middle class.


It also might cause the apocolypse, but there is no reason to believe either is true.


RE: Maybe
By kellehair on 6/4/2009 9:38:12 AM , Rating: 5
I'd prefer to see the loopholes closed and the tax rates lowered.


RE: Maybe
By captainpierce on 6/4/2009 10:50:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd prefer to see the loopholes closed and the tax rates lowered.


How dare you suggest proposals that make sense? Get with the program. In this day and age we're all about trying things that have failed before!


RE: Maybe
By Ammohunt on 6/4/2009 3:54:23 PM , Rating: 1
Like Socialism?


RE: Maybe
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 6:03:09 PM , Rating: 3
Alive and well in Europe. And works.


RE: Maybe
By captainpierce on 6/4/2009 10:24:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Alive and well in Europe. And works.


Until you run out of other people's money. Be seeing you!


RE: Maybe
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/5/2009 1:37:45 PM , Rating: 2
hah, capitalism is all about getting other peoples money too ^_^


RE: Maybe
By captainpierce on 6/5/2009 11:42:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
hah, capitalism is all about getting other peoples money too ^_^


The exchange is voluntary and left up to the individual. Do you not see the distinction?


RE: Maybe
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/8/2009 1:42:09 PM , Rating: 2
Oh I definitely see the distinction, was just pointing out that at the base level there's not much difference from any economic system.


RE: Maybe
By captainpierce on 6/9/2009 11:52:12 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
there's not much difference from any economic system.


Tell that to the people who lived in East Germany all those years!


RE: Maybe
By Ammohunt on 6/5/2009 5:43:08 PM , Rating: 2
Like in France daily protests for more tenured jobs and england where the are concerned about draining the NHS dry by building new hospitals? or Venezuela with some of the worst crime in Latin America LOL yeah and i'm a Chinses Jet pilot.


RE: Maybe
By dragonbif on 6/4/2009 12:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
The only problem is there is no talk at all of lowering tax rates. The only talk I see is how to get more taxes to pay for all the added costs. I pay 21% of my pay check to tax, med and SS, I make $60K a year the only problem is I am single so I get no tax return. Now they are talking about taxing my benifits 401K match, retirement, health care and anything else they can come up with.
Just so you know the taxes you and I pay, our employer matchs so they pay taxes/Med/SS on that. The gov is fishing to spend more so they can give more. Who benefits from it? not me or anyone else that make over 40K a year. They will close loopholes but they will never lower the tax rates.


RE: Maybe
By Ringold on 6/4/2009 1:43:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The only problem is there is no talk at all of lowering tax rates.


A few more moderate Democrats (Charley Rangel tried to push it through) have discussed it for the last year or two, closing all exceptions and "loop holes" but then lowering the base rate to be in line with the rest of the industrialized world.

Unfortunately, moderate Democrats have no voice with Pelosi, Reid, or seemingly Obama. They get on CNBC and talk about wanting to do it, but they can't make it happen inside the party.


RE: Maybe
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 1:46:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A few more moderate Democrats (Charley Rangel tried to push it through) have discussed it for the last year or two, closing all exceptions and "loop holes"

You mean, of course, except the loop holes that Charles Rangel himself uses for his apartments in New York and his properties down south :)


RE: Maybe
By encryptkeeper on 6/4/2009 4:58:47 PM , Rating: 2
The US is so badly in debt that tax rates will just have to go up for SOMEONE. Whether it's sales tax, property tax, income tax, someone will have to pay for years and years of borrowing and spending. Hasn't Obama been offering tax BREAKS for companies that leave jobs in the US?

Check out www.factcheck.org for an easier time making sense of this mess.


RE: Maybe
By SublimeSimplicity on 6/4/2009 9:42:49 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
If all the businesses oppose it, it might be good for the middle class.


Because something is bad for businesses, its good for the middle class?!?

The middle class (aside from government workers) get their paycheck from businesses. If the government taxes a business, that money has to come from somewhere. It will either result in higher price for goods (the middle class buys goods, right?) or lower wages (the middle class does earn wages, right?).

That is of course assuming they don't have access to a tax tree, which grows money to pay the government. They're located in a gumdrop forests and are easy to spot because unicorns prance around them.


RE: Maybe
By FITCamaro on 6/4/2009 10:23:22 AM , Rating: 2
It will be good for the middle class because it means our jobs will stay here. Companies are going to move jobs out of the country if this goes into effect. I'm glad to see a company like Microsoft standing up the government and giving them the finger.


RE: Maybe
By bigbubbajoe on 6/4/2009 11:41:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
That is of course assuming they don't have access to a tax tree, which grows money to pay the government.


The government has just such a tree. It is called the Federal Reserve.


RE: Maybe
By captainpierce on 6/4/2009 1:45:44 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The government has just such a tree. It is called the Federal Reserve.


And every dollar that falls off the tree is worth less than the last one. What a great tree!!


RE: Maybe
By TSS on 6/4/2009 8:03:02 PM , Rating: 2
yes it is. it can be a great means of controlling and regulating inflation.

however starting to chop up the tree for wood to print even more money really isn't a good idea.


RE: Maybe
By captainpierce on 6/4/2009 10:21:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
yes it is. it can be a great means of controlling and regulating inflation.


In theory yes. If the Fed acts independently, which in most cases it does not. And if it followed its general mandate, to maintain price stability, which it does not.


RE: Maybe
By captainpierce on 6/4/2009 10:54:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If all the businesses oppose it, it might be good for the middle class.


Sigh...is that you, John Edwards?


President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By amanojaku on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By smackababy on 6/4/2009 9:43:20 AM , Rating: 2
They are not taxable in the states. From my understanding, the current system allows tax breaks for companies that invest money where they are getting profits from. Obama is tryign to take this away now. Yes, it would help America, but basically screw over the rest of the world MS sells products to. Prices will raise all around if this passes. You can't justify the US taxing Europeans money.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By amanojaku on 6/4/2009 9:49:13 AM , Rating: 2
If I understand this correctly the money is already taxed, just at a lower rate. What people are missing in all of this is that Obama is trying to bring the foreign investments home, potentially creating more of the American jobs you're afraid of losing.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 9:58:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Obama is trying to bring the foreign investments home, potentially creating more of the American jobs you're afraid of losing.

Wrong. By creating an even larger tax burden on American companies, you are doing nothing less than forcing them to move more and more operations overseas, and perhaps setting their headquarters there.

The only types of jobs that Obama is trying to create by this are more government jobs. Just too bad that the money to pay government employees has to come from...yup, taxes. Like the recent 34% tax revenue drop for 2008 tax year.

Again, government employment is socialism. That only works until you run out of everyone elses money....or they pick up and leave, which is what is being threatened right now...and I hope they follow through with it.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By amanojaku on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By bhieb on 6/4/2009 10:16:55 AM , Rating: 2
So because they have it take it, right.

I agree that you cannot fund the billions he is shelling out by taxing the middle class (so you will have to get it from the top), but at some point the big guys will just bail. As a MS stockholder I hope they do, most forget there are lots of middle class that have MS stock (not to mention 401K's and such which most likely have MS stock in the funds). If it is bad for MS then it is not just bad for the fat cats at the top. If they do move it will be no ones fault but our own for turning a blind eye from the run away "Robin Hood" effect in this country, and ideals like yours that there is something wrong with making millions as a CEO.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By pequin06 on 6/4/2009 10:26:27 AM , Rating: 2
I'm all for Robin Hood, the original that is.
He stole from the rich (The Goverment) and gave back to the poor (The taxpayers).
But alas, the Robin Hood story and it's meaning has been changed to The Rich (The working class and up) to the poor (The Lazy people).


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By phatboye on 6/4/2009 12:20:37 PM , Rating: 2
Not all poor people are lazy.


By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 1:06:12 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah. Just the ones on welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing....and people like this lady (which 99% of them voted for Obama, wonder why?):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg98BvqUvCc


By pequin06 on 6/4/2009 4:42:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not all poor people are lazy.


Not all liquids are wet but enough are.


By dragonbif on 6/4/2009 1:37:51 PM , Rating: 2
There are a lot of lazy people or people that made bad choices and are now living off the gov. I am all for help people who work hard loose their job and need a little help as they look for another job. Also helping people who become disabled or were born that way. I am all for help them but I have a hard time helping people who did not want to go to school who did drugs and wasted their life. Some may turn around and should be given a oppertunity but most do not want to change and are just lazzzzzzy.

Help those who cant help themselves, help those who want to help themselves but do not help those that are lazy.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:17:16 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Since when has a reduction in corporate taxes been a benefit to the economy?

When you lower corporate taxes, their net profit goes up, and allows them to hire more people while selling their products at lower costs. THAT is what boosts the economy, by making their products and services more competitive and cheaper.

This isn't rocket science.
quote:
The last time I checked the average American salary was $35K.

And if your a middle aged person making $35k per year, perhaps you should be blaming the executives. You should be blaming yourself for not taking your education and skill set seriously at a young age in order to garnish the knowledge and skills to make yourself a high demand worker.
quote:
I'm not saying Obama's strategy WILL work

No economist or business player is saying that, and for good reason.
quote:
I'm just pointing out that the foreign investments haven't done you or I a lick of good

Of course they have. They have enabled you to purchase products at a cheaper rate with your $35k salary. Else, you'd still be buying TV's that cost 10x as much, and your Windows OS would cost $1000 instead of $100.
quote:
Bringing business back home means you might get more jobs,

You will not bring businesses back home until you make it cheaper for them to run their business here than out of country. However, you cannot force them to be an American business. So if you try to attain this by making foreign investments more expensive, instead of making domestic business cheaper...you will do nothing but force that business to pick up and move and no longer be an American company.
quote:
which means more spending

Quite frankly, we don't need more spending. We need cheaper products and more fiscal responsibility. The only way to achieve this is by lower taxes and cheaper energy - not higher tax, wealth redistribution, and "green" energy because these are all counter productive from an economic growth perspective and standard of living for each family.
quote:
which may lead to a stronger American economy

The only thing that can strengthen the American economy is less government regulation, less intervention, lower taxation, lower prices, and less entitlement and social spending which will lead to more motivation, higher job growth, lower unemployment, higher wages, higher GDP, and a higher standard of living.


By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:18:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
perhaps you should be blaming the executives.

Meant to say "perhaps you should NOT be blaming the executives"


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By amanojaku on 6/4/2009 10:46:25 AM , Rating: 3
For the record, I make six figures and I'm one of the people looking to become an executive. I want to be fair, however, when it comes to compensating my employees, and most employers are not. I've worked for many companies that offshored work and I can tell you that lowering prices was not the goal. I'm not sure what country YOU live in, but all I've seen are my costs go up while offshoring increases.

I pointed out the disparity in salaries because people think executives deserve the ridiculous salaries they make. Last time I checked, it was 100 guys making $35K that helped the company get rich; the executive was out playing golf most of the time, and we were happy for that. Most executives are incompetents and mess up everything they touch!

The final point is the taxes: you make it sound like these companies are not being taxed for their foreign operations. They ARE , just at a lower rate. The proposal is to make the tax rate the same, foreign or domestic. If there is no incentive to go overseas then things will likely come back home. I doubt these companies are going to leave the U.S. because they'll run into an even bigger problem: executive salaries are less overseas than they are here. I recall one article that mentioned foreign companies where the CEO in Europe made less money than his American VP. Apparently, that's par for the course, and not a fluke. If it makes you feel any better, I'm in favor of raising the foreign corporate taxes while lowering the domestic.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 11:05:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not sure what country YOU live in, but all I've seen are my costs go up while offshoring increases.

Yeah so have I....due to increased taxation to support social welfare and entitlement schemes and increases in taxation (state, local, sales, federal, corporate).
quote:
Last time I checked, it was 100 guys making $35K that helped the company get rich;

Last I checked, someone needed to have that $3.5M to be able to pay the employees...oh yeah, the wealthy guy who the left believes doesn't create jobs lol.
quote:
Most executives are incompetents and mess up everything they touch!

Ahh yes. And I can just imagine an unskilled union laborer with no college degree making the fiscal, operational, and strategic decisions of a company.
quote:
you make it sound like these companies are not being taxed for their foreign operations. They ARE

No, I make it sound that any taxation, much less increases account for part of the product price and create less funds for employment due to the bottom line. I believe all taxes should be lowered, or almost eliminated - whether it be here or overseas. The idea that tax lovers cannot seem to comprehend is that the goal for a strong workforce and high standard of living can only be achieved if businesses are cheaper to run here than anywhere else, while also maintaining the level of profitability that is needed.
quote:
I'm in favor of raising the foreign corporate taxes while lowering the domestic.

I'm in favor of lowering, if not abolishing, both.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 1:04:24 PM , Rating: 2

Most executives are incompetents and mess up everything they touch!


Ahh yes. And I can just imagine an unskilled union laborer with no college degree making the fiscal, operational, and strategic decisions of a company


And what would you do if you couldn't afford college? No financial aid because the government "entitlement" programs got cancelled. No scholarships because of your crappy test scores from a crappy school that didn't have enough teachers to teach you anything (again, because no government funding). Tough luck, try again next time. Maybe become an unskilled union worker just to get some health insurance coverage (just make sure you don't get too sick, because getting too sick isn't covered).

Your utopia doesn't work - people are left behind. It's a strong positive-feedback system splitting everyone in two groups: the have-its and have-nots. The problem is, in order to be a have-it, your parents/family had to be have-its to afford to open you the right doors to. If your parents were have-nots, you're probably going to have even less. The "positive feedback" (and I use 'positive' as a scientific term) will ensure that the split will get more significant over time.

There is only one way to break this cycle: government funding is needed from a moral point of view to take care of those that were never given opportunities in the first place. Europe is a great example of a system that works: higher taxes and government spending, but everyone gets health insurance, free education (including college), housing support for those who can't afford it themselves.?
The dog-eat-dog world you're promoting only appeals to those who were born as bigger dogs. Don't you think the smaller dogs have rights, too?


By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 1:08:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is only one way to break this cycle: government funding is needed from a moral point of view to take care of those that were never given opportunities in the first place. Europe is a great example of a system that works: higher taxes and government spending, but everyone gets health insurance, free education (including college), housing support for those who can't afford it themselves.?

That is not called equal opportunity. That is called equal outcome, regardless of what you put into it. No thanks. I'd rather leave the lazy behind..."survival of the fittest" if you will. After all, the only way to create self motivation is to take something away that you depend on.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By Ringold on 6/4/2009 1:21:20 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And what would you do if you couldn't afford college? No financial aid because the government "entitlement" programs got cancelled. No scholarships because of your crappy test scores from a crappy school that didn't have enough teachers to teach you anything (again, because no government funding).


Some states have more expensive state universities, but here in Florida a degree is affordable under your above scenario. I know plenty of people who earned degrees by working through school and over summers, and by being cheap by doing their first couple years at a community college. Not the easiest, but where in the constitution does it say you are entitled to an easy time at college, full of nothing but beer and cheap heavily subsidized classes?

As for "crappy schools," you probably don't have first hand experience with them. I went to one. Some classes were large, but the teachers were fairly dedicated. The failure was with the students; the teachers can't force thugs to learn. There were a few special individuals that somehow pulled themselves up from that cultural background and went on to college, but you won't want to hear about them because it's a libertarian "do it yourself" story.

quote:
Your utopia doesn't work - people are left behind.


Depends on who you're talking about being left behind. I don't think many people discuss leaving behind people with physical impairments, etc. But if some 'normal' people haven't been willing to work hard (and smart) then why should anyone else care if they reap what they sow and fall behind?

quote:
There is only one way to break this cycle: government funding is needed from a moral point of view to take care of those that were never given opportunities in the first place.


Sorry, my understanding was that opportunity was largely created, not handed out. Typical statist bull.

quote:
Europe is a great example of a system that works: higher taxes and government spending, but everyone gets health insurance, free education (including college), housing support for those who can't afford it themselves.?


Also consistently higher unemployment, generally lower income, and lower growth. The Swiss model of health care isn't so bad, though. Prior to the current global slowdown, Europe was improving, but not because of socialism, but rather that politicians across the political spectrum in many European countries were realizing their traditional form of socialism that you're advocating was too stifling. As for free education, you do realize European universities are, compared to American ones, trash in global rankings? Not paying for degrees also leads more students there to choose economically useless majors.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 2:59:48 PM , Rating: 1
I know plenty of people who earned degrees by working through school and over summers, and by being cheap by doing their first couple years at a community college.

And would you agree that these people having to work while in school affected how much time they were able to dedicate to actual learning? If you have to work on top of a full day in classes, when do you do homework? When do you sleep?

Also, would you agree that spending the first couple of years at a community college gives you lower-quality education than spending the first couple of years at a top university?

I also know people who do this, and it affects their ability to study or go to a great grad school. It's hard to keep that 4.0 GPA if you sleep 4h per night and work to pay the bills.

In contrast, the European model: do well in high school and score well in your entrance examinations, you get a spot in a top program of your choice, with no tuition and a stipend for living expenses. Your ability to reach your potential is not limited by your bank account.

Sorry, my understanding was that opportunity was largely created, not handed out. Typical statist bull.
The opportunity is given; seizing it is up to you. You shouldn't have work super hard to "create" an opportunity that your rich neighbor gets for doing jack shit.

Also consistently higher unemployment, generally lower income, and lower growth
Lower income on average, but flat. Cleaning ladies make enough to life. Engineers make more, but not significantly so. Lower growth, maybe, but is having higher growth more important than the happiness of the citizen?

As for free education, you do realize European universities are, compared to American ones, trash in global rankings? Not paying for degrees also leads more students there to choose economically useless majors.

I know that top US universities are ranked higher than the top European universities. But the top 1% doesn't concern me; it's the overall quality of the educational opportunity (most people don't study in that top 1%).

I agree to some degree about the economically useless majors, though. The US system seems to believe in this "breadth of knowledge" idea that I don't really understand... I see studying history and literature in high school to be a waste of time; high-school education should instead focus on providing strong background on math, physics etc.

And yes, the European model does promote useless majors in a way. But I see it being a small price to pay for enabling the smart people with high potential to study in the best programs regardless of their economic background.


By Penti on 6/8/2009 1:10:51 AM , Rating: 2
"And yes, the European model does promote useless majors in a way. But I see it being a small price to pay for enabling the smart people with high potential to study in the best programs regardless of their economic background."

The US system does too as college are at a much lower level and considered needed in the US. Promote useless programs that is. A bachelor degree is a full year longer in the US then in the EU system. We got more knowledge from the secondary school.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By JKflipflop98 on 6/4/2009 1:34:45 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry, but that's a total cop-out through and through. My parents are both poor, and I was poor as a youngster. I put myself through school to get a degree. I had no help from anyone, and I did it.

Now I work in Intel's research facility here in Hillsboro. I did it all myself. No one opened any doors or gave me "entitlement" to Jack Shit.

You are correct on one point, however, and that's there is only one way to break the cycle. Stop pointing fingers and get out there and work for it. If you really want something and work hard enough at it, you will have it. If you just sit on your ass posting on DT about your fictional "Have's and Have-not's". . . then you aren't going to get anywhere.


By mikefarinha on 6/4/2009 2:22:12 PM , Rating: 3
As a software developer that put myself through college, and am still paying of my student loans, I second your sentiment.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 3:05:18 PM , Rating: 2
Now I work in Intel's research facility here in Hillsboro. I did it all myself. No one opened any doors or gave me "entitlement" to Jack S***.

Me too, but I got there without killing myself working to put food on the table while studying for exams. Good for you, though, for making it.

But you're making low six figures now, while your CEO is making 100x more. Does it mean that he's 100x better than you, worked 100x harder, or what?


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 3:16:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but I got there without killing myself working to put food on the table while studying for exams

Look man, just because some people aren't killing themselves to put food on the table at the same time, doesn't mean their parents or their parents parents didn't do that in order to give them a better life and leave them wealth. Now, all you people are mad at them because they have more money than you or have it easier...well, someone down the line risked more and worked harder to make that happen. Thats capitalism. You get out what you put in.
quote:
Does it mean that he's 100x better than you, worked 100x harder, or what?

Ok, now this stuff really pisses me off. When do you people realize that you aren't paid by how hard your job is. You are paid according to how much you are needed - how in demand your position is, and how few people there are out there to properly fill that position while presenting the experience to your employer that you know how to achieve success in your role? Do you really think that everyone who works 8 hours per day in construction who all use the same shovel should all make $10 per hour, including the boss...because they're all equal? If so, then you definitely belong in a union. The problem with that philosophy is that it holds back motivation to be better, increase output, make more well thought out decisions, get more education, put in more effort....because you will never be better than the next person. Again, capitalism is a method that works because you get equal opportunity to make choices, and it doesn't follow the socialism aspect of "equal outcome".


By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 7:06:08 PM , Rating: 2
Look man, just because some people aren't killing themselves to put food on the table at the same time, doesn't mean their parents or their parents parents didn't do that in order to give them a better life and leave them wealth. Now, all you people are mad at them because they have more money than you or have it easier...well, someone down the line risked more and worked harder to make that happen. Thats capitalism. You get out what you put in.

No; you get out what you PARENTS put into it. How is that equal opportunity? You don't choose your parents.

Equal opportunity is having the same options regardless of where you were born or who your family is.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By choadenstein on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 6:59:50 PM , Rating: 3
Nice story about your wife. Impressive accomplishments. Good thing she was in a middle-class family, and went to an school in an "average at BEST public school system", instead of having <90 IQ burgerflippers as parents, and going to one of those bottom 5% schools...

But go to Portugal or Italy or similar countries and try to get decent health care... Sure, it's free, if you can get it. I have a Portuguese friend whose Grandmother was placed on a 3 month waiting list to see a doctor as she was dying of Melanoma. She died before the "free" doctor could see her.

I'm sorry to hear that about your friend's grandmother. Melanoma, I've heard, is a tough one... with one of the highest mortality of all the cancers, right?

However, in the US, if you don't have health insurance, you might die from something like the flu because you can't afford to go to the doctor to get treatment. Is that better?

Have you ever been to Europe? First off, not sure if you know this, but, Europe is a WHOLE bunch of countries, what system are you referring to? Each country has it's own set of laws when it comes to each of the issues you discuss.

Yes, I've been to Europe. As examples of well-working systems, I'd use Northern Europe (Sweden, Norway etc.).

Additionally, "Europe"ans are not all going to college, yippity-dooh-dah, for free. In fact, many of the countries in Europe have various test at certain educational levels that if you don't score high enough... Guess what buddy, you're going to be a "professional" (ie., laborer). Like it or not.

This is exactly how it should be. I agree 100% that people shouldn't be entitled to a college education. However, if you score well, then yes - you should be entitled, regardless of how much money you (or your parents/grandparents) have in the bank. In fact, there should be financial help to encourage you to go, because it's good for the country to have its people educated to the maximum of their potential.

Our quality of life, in my opinion, is significantly higher than any of the countries in Europe I have been. Not to say I wouldn't love a 32 hour work week and 2 hours off for lunch everyday... But simply by the amenities, give me the good old USA.

I agree: the quality of life for an average american family tends to be higher than that of an average nothern european family, but not much more so. However, my concern is not the average family, but the bottom 5%: the bottom 5% nothern-european family has a much higher quality of life than the bottom 10% american family... would you agree?

This is why I think the (Nothern) European model works better - it provides (almost) everyone with decent quality of life.



RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By choadenstein on 6/5/2009 4:04:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Good thing she was in a middle-class family, and went to an school in an "average at BEST public school system", instead of having <90 IQ burgerflippers as parents, and going to one of those bottom 5% schools...


Read my post again, note the story of her best friend - who went to one of those bottom 5% schools and was raised by one of those burger flippers... She still rose above and became a Dr. as well.

quote:
Melanoma, I've heard, is a tough one... with one of the highest mortality of all the cancers, right? However, in the US, if you don't have health insurance, you might die from something like the flu because you can't afford to go to the doctor to get treatment. Is that better?


Wow... Really. Where have you been in the U.S. where you could not get treatment for the flu? ER's in the U.S. do not turn people away. Insurance or not... Ability to pay or not. If you want treatment in the U.S., you get it. Whether you'll be able to pay the bill or not is not what we were talking about, Access to medical treatment is. Not being able to SEE a doctor, with your Free heath care was the point I made... And you respond with affordability.

As for your Northern European socialist countries that you tout so highly.

Sweden: (from Wikipedia - I know not always the best source but...)

"A major criticism of Swedish healthcare is long waiting times before treatment" (See Portugal Above...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden

and Norway I already cited as an example of a country made wealthy by Oil and can pay more for its citizens because of it.
quote:
This is exactly how it should be. I agree 100% that people shouldn't be entitled to a college education. However, if you score well, then yes - you should be entitled, regardless of how much money you (or your parents/grandparents) have in the bank. In fact, there should be financial help to encourage you to go, because it's good for the country to have its people educated to the maximum of their potential.


Guess what, you get high scores in the US, you can/will get grants and scholarships... If you don't get high scores, you still get grants if you can find a college that will take you.

Pell Grants, Stafford Loans, Subsidies for doing public work after graduation, college tuition for military service. The avenues are there. What's the problem? Anyone who wants to go, can. Your poor and disadvantaged are offered the highest subsidies of all, including lowered admission standards for their socioeconomic status and higher amount of Pell Grant awards. Will they pay for 4-years at Harvard, NO. Will they pay for 4-years at a State School, most likely, yes. If you can get into Harvard, you will get the loans...

PS - I went to a State University and the Pell Grant paid for all but a few hundred dollars of my tuition.

quote:
the bottom 5% nothern-european family has a much higher quality of life than the bottom 10% american family... would you agree?


I cannot say that I have enough information to make a comparison about what life is like for the bottom 5-10% of either societies. I doubt you do either. I would say that in my uneducated opinion, based solely on my perceptions gathered through travelling, both are approximately equal with each country having pros and cons depending on what the situation is.

I can say that overall, that it is my well traveled opinion that our quality of life across the board is much higher here. The grass is always greener, until you've been there...


By hyvonen on 6/6/2009 4:41:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Read my post again, note the story of her best friend - who went to one of those bottom 5% schools and was raised by one of those burger flippers... She still rose above and became a Dr. as well.


Good for her. I still think this is an exception - not the rule. In the Northern European system, her background wouldn't play a role, only her own abilities.

There wouldn't have to be the extra work of "rising above" that someone else with equal skills and abilities but bigger wallet didn't have to do. Wouldn't this be more fair? Encourage everyone to reach their potential?

quote:
Wow... Really. Where have you been in the U.S. where you could not get treatment for the flu? ER's in the U.S. do not turn people away. Insurance or not... Ability to pay or not. If you want treatment in the U.S., you get it. Whether you'll be able to pay the bill or not is not what we were talking about, Access to medical treatment is.


Actually, I always thought paying for services requested is sort of important... Getting treatment while never planning to pay for it is stealing. But I guess you think this is OK... someone else will eventually pay for it.

Would you do it, if you were in the same situation (no insurance, live from paycheck to paycheck that's barely enough for rent/food)? Ignore your medical bills, just wait for the collection agencies?

quote:
PS - I went to a State University and the Pell Grant paid for all but a few hundred dollars of my tuition.

How did you pay for your housing? Food? Also, why wouldn't they pay for Harvard? Why do you have to strain yourself of tons of loans to reach your potential if someone else who just happened to have rich parents didn't have to?

It's this sort of stuff that creates the inequality in a society - money breeds money, and it's hard to break the cycle.

quote:
I cannot say that I have enough information to make a comparison about what life is like for the bottom 5-10% of either societies. I doubt you do either. I would say that in my uneducated opinion, based solely on my perceptions gathered through travelling, both are approximately equal with each country having pros and cons depending on what the situation is.


I've lived and studied/worked in both systems for 10+ years, and I can say for sure that the bottom 5-10% in Northern Europe is much better off than the bottom 5-10% in the USA. Actually, I haven't even seen homeless people in Northern Europe, while I see them every day in the USA.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By Penti on 6/8/2009 2:25:34 AM , Rating: 2
There's no problem getting emergency treatment without going bankrupt in Sweden, a hip replacement you will have to wait a few months for though. But you won't die because that. I've had affordable astma treatment, medicine, emergency treatment for a broken wrist and subsidized medicine growing up. As well as free dental till I was 20. I've had emergency dental work too.

You won't also have to pay the double amount of money, Sweden pays no more tax money for health care then the US does i.e. the health care cost is just 8% of GDP instead of 16% like in the US. Watch health care statistics from WHO and you'll see Sweden ranking higher then the US. In life expectancy, healthy life expectancy, neonatal mortality, much lower maternal mortality rate, less cancer deaths, we got more physicians, more nurses and all at a much lower cost.


By Penti on 6/8/2009 2:38:04 AM , Rating: 2
It's just plain cheaper you god damn ignorant people. The Norwegian oil is new North/Norwegian Sea oil which has just been extracted for 30 years. Norway is still a rich country without it with 99% hydro electric power for power generation. A energy rich country none the less. Uk was self sufficient on north sea oil too. They are still worse off. No European pays more for health care then US as US is the county that pays most both in dollars and as of % GDP. You really must accept that you got one of the worst and certainly the most costly health care system in the developed world. The money goes to no use in your system.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By ccmfreak2 on 6/4/2009 12:38:43 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The final point is the taxes: you make it sound like these companies are not being taxed for their foreign operations. They ARE , just at a lower rate. The proposal is to make the tax rate the same, foreign or domestic. If there is no incentive to go overseas then things will likely come back home.


Ok, so the tax rate becomes the same, foreign or domestic. But everyone knows the US has some of the highest wages in the world. MS can get the same work done for half the cost (or maybe even less) by moving shop to India, but whether they stay or go, they are being taxed the same by the products sold in the US. What's the incentive to stay in the US, again?

This is the problem with trying to tax the rich into oblivion. The only thing you end up doing is forcing them to move away (this is what happened in Maryland). When you have money, you can go where ever you want - you are not forced to a specific location. If you don't like it, you can move - and that is just what MS is looking at doing. So, rather than getting MORE revenue from MS, the govt. will get only SALES revenue from MS via the products they end up importing into the US when they move overseas.


By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 12:45:00 PM , Rating: 4
And just for some insight into what he's talking about:

From the Baltimore Sun..http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-md.mill...

quote:
One of Maryland's budget-balancing tactics - asking millionaires to pay more money to the state - appears to be backfiring as the number of the highest-earning taxpayers dwindles with the flagging economy. A year ago, Maryland became one of the first states in the nation to create a higher tax bracket for millionaires as part of a broader package of maneuvers intended to help balance the state's finances and make the tax code more progressive. But as the state comptroller's office sifts through this year's returns, it is finding that the number of Marylanders with more than $1 million in taxable income who filed by the end of April has fallen by one-third, to about 2,000. Taxes collected from those returns as of last month have declined by roughly $100 million.


By mikefarinha on 6/4/2009 10:49:15 AM , Rating: 3
Great response!

Too many people buy in to the class warfare mentality that the left likes to tout.


By bhieb on 6/4/2009 10:24:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm just pointing out that the foreign investments haven't done you or I a lick of good


To address this point. Hell yes they have done me good. If it makes an American company money thus allows them to hire more people that then can spend money of their own.... then yes it does me good.

You seem to think that without these savings the millionaires at the top will just take a pay cut and move on. WRONG that is never the case. Two things can happen with the added costs. Prices for their products will go up to compensate, thus increasing inflation. Or they will take a loss and their stock price will fall, thus hurting all the shareholders not just the fat cats. Since the fat cat wants to stay fat he cannot have option 2, and presumably the market can only stand so much price increase, so he will take option 3 and layoff some of those hard working middle class your so fond of.


By HueyD on 6/4/2009 12:14:31 PM , Rating: 2
Take it to the extreme, 100% tax rate and 0%. Which one do you think would persuade corporations to move their offices to the US?


By pequin06 on 6/4/2009 10:00:12 AM , Rating: 2
So compainies should pay higher taxes just for the potential of more American jobs to be created?

No, people aren't missing that....
What ends of happening is higher taxes and ..... That's it


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By MrPeabody on 6/4/2009 10:02:44 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Obama is trying to bring the foreign investments home, potentially creating more of the American jobs you're afraid of losing.


I'm not sure I understand this correctly. Are you saying that, by making it more expensive for American companies to do business, more American jobs will be created?


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:06:52 AM , Rating: 2
Not exactly. The thought - but not well thought out - behind it is that by making it more expensive for American companies to employ people and do business overseas, rather than contain their entire operations in the US, they will try to force these companies to only have (or have more of) US employees and operations within the US mainland.

However, what these lib-tards don't realize is that its going to be much easier and cheaper for these companies to just setup shop in another country, b=build their headquarters there, and declare themselves no longer an American company. They will essentially sell themselves to their own investors overseas and become a foreign company who curbs the American tax scheme and does not have to hire overpaid, unskilled labor and labor unions.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By MrPeabody on 6/4/2009 10:27:57 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
by making it more expensive for American companies to employ people and do business overseas, rather than contain their entire operations in the US, they will try to force these companies to only have (or have more of) US employees and operations within the US mainland.


Sure, I understand that part.

I would assume that these out-of-country jobs exist, at least in part, because it is less expensive for the company to operate in such a manner. Therefore, moving all the jobs back to the United States would make general operating costs for the company more expensive. I was curious as to how amanojaku sees this as a stimulus for job creation within the U.S.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:32:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
moving all the jobs back to the United States would make general operating costs for the company more expensive.

True...but what the other part of Obama's plan is that even if the operating costs go up by moving back to the US, it would be even higher if they continued to employ overseas by means of additional taxation.
quote:
. I was curious as to how amanojaku sees this as a stimulus for job creation within the U.S.

Well, I'm curious to know this as well. Its funny, we lost about 1.9 million jobs between January and May. Just recently, Obama came out and declared that he "saved" 150,000 jobs. Well, call me crazy, but how did you "save" anything when you just lost 1.9 million? Thats like saying I bought a lottery ticket for $20, and I won $1....so I made $1 instead of losing $19.

Its really all in how you try to spin it.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 12:35:50 PM , Rating: 2
So, most of the economic collapse is Obama's fault, because he became the president just when the worst part was beginning? None of it was related to what happened the previous eight years?

"Its really all in how you try to spin it."
And really are trying to spin it.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 12:36:45 PM , Rating: 1
Edit: "And YOU really are trying to spin it."


By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 12:42:08 PM , Rating: 2
No. I didn't blame the current mess all on Obama. I said that he didn't save anything. Nothing positive has happened, therefore there is no credit due.

But lets be frank here, it took a lot more than the liberal line of "the last 8 years" to cause this, most of which is credited to Barney Frank and his "everyone should own a house" memoir. Bush made it worse with big spending & borrowing, and failing to see the housinig markets collapse when the Wall St Journal, Economist Magazine, and several other sources have been calling it for years. Obama tax schemes, cap & trade, increasing foreign investment taxes, and massive government expansion through government jobs are what is going to permanently keep us on a downslope.


By mikefarinha on 6/4/2009 2:30:43 PM , Rating: 2
Obama isn't being blamed for the failing economy. He is being blamed for preventing it's recovery.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By amanojaku on 6/4/2009 1:20:03 PM , Rating: 3
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said this was a stimulus; I said this was a deterrent. I was careful to use words like "may," "might," and "potentially." I'm going to try and explain this one last time, after which I'm going make everyone happy and go drink a nice cold glass of shut the f* up.

Let's use Sony and the PS3 as an example. The PS3 retails for as little as $400. Analysts claim this is why the unit isn't selling; Sony says it can't reduce the price because it can't make any money off the unit. Typical problem, "easily" solved buy cutting costs. Cut costs where? In the past that was solved by finding cheaper components, which resulted in lower product quality. In some cases better manufacturing techniques meant lower prices and BETTER quality, which is what happened with fibre optics. I think Sony is using the cheapest materials it can get away with while still providing a decent product, so alternatives are cheaper labor. Maybe even offshoring. That may not work for Sony if it already has the cheapest labor, so the last resort is to lower corporate taxes.

So what happens when you find out companies have not only lowered their costs through cheaper manufacturing and labor, but that they've been reaping significant profits due to low taxes from a system that was only meant to be temporary? Well, you're not going to give them free passes any more; you reset the taxes back to what they were. Why? Because those lost taxes meant cuts in other areas (some definitely SHOULD be cut) or tax increases pushed out to the public.

Economists are divided on the benefits of offshoring; some are citing evidence that proves offshoring is detrimental to both the foreign countries and the countries of origin. The foreign countries may have more jobs, but there are little or no health benefits, quality of living sucks, salaries are still low, and (as many of you are quick to point out) product or service quality sucks when dealing with foreigners. The reduction in corporate costs does not equate to an increase in local jobs or even a reduction in product costs. Underemployment is typically the result; we work for less because we're happy to HAVE jobs, but we spend less, too. So your "cheap" products don't help you if you're getting $10-20K less. And yet, executives get paid more and more. I'm not starting class warfare, I'm just pointing out that it already exists, and your position justifies this continuing trend. If class warfare doesn't exist, explain Enron, AIG, Washington Mutual, Time Warner, Comcast, etc... And MS; really Office costs $500??? Why? It's been practically the same for years, with just a new interface!

So, will Obama's plan work if enacted? Who knows? Jobs MIGHT come back home. If they do, there MAY be more people willing to buy. If more people are buying locally then prices MAY fall or stabilize because the economic burden is spread across more POTENTIAL customers. On the other hand, it could be a complete and utter failure. No one knows, and no one can prove it either way.


By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 1:22:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If class warfare doesn't exist, explain Enron, AIG, Washington Mutual, Time Warner, Comcast, etc... And MS; really Office costs $500??? Why? It's been practically the same for years, with just a new interface!

Enron was corrupt. AIG bought mortgage backed securities which were junk because of the governments forced housing regulations for people who couldnt afford houses. Time Warner & Comcast have very good business strategies with their hands in the pockets of politicans who push for them to be the only option in your area.

Why does office cost $500? Because there is a demand for the product and people are willing to pay for it. Plain and simple. If you don't want it, don't buy it. There are free versions out there like Open Office...so why do people still buy it? Demand.


By Ringold on 6/4/2009 1:29:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Economists are divided on the benefits of offshoring; some are citing evidence that proves offshoring is detrimental to both the foreign countries and the countries of origin.


That depends on if you have specific industry or specific service to be offshored in mind. In general, economists (asides from some old-guard Marxists in academia) are absolutely not divided on "offshoring," FDI, globalization and other related concepts.

That said, I have heard some companies have had problems with unexpected red tape, poor infrastructure, or labor problems in foreign countries that have pushed up the price of moving operations there. If it didn't generally work well though, Infosys wouldn't exist.


By deltadeltadelta on 6/4/2009 10:47:58 AM , Rating: 2
They are already being taxed on their profits by the foreign governments in whose country they are doing business. This would then be additionally on top of that. In general, taxing a corporation reduces the funds it has to be able to reinvest into the organization. It reduces the number of jobs and GDP (or in this case GNP). It is a disincentive to grow a business.


RE: President Obama to Microsoft CEO:
By invidious on 6/4/2009 10:02:54 AM , Rating: 3
So if an American company is making a product in Germany, selling it it Germany, and investing the profits back into the business in Germany the US government deserves a cut of that profit?

I know hemmoraging tax money to our fearless leader gives some people a hard on. But if the goverment isn't helping the business stay alive then they have no right taxing that business.


By SublimeSimplicity on 6/4/2009 10:14:33 AM , Rating: 5
This is also the impression I get, which really worries me.

Let's say I take a vacation down in Costa Rica and was talking to a local and good friend about a business idea they had for a coffee shop. I agree to give him $1000 in exchange for half ownership in the business and tell him not to send me any profits, but to put the money into expansion.

If the IRS found out about that $1000, even if I never saw a dime in profits... they could tax me at the US corporate tax rate for their profits.

This isn't "closing a loophole", this is stealing.


By sdoorex on 6/4/2009 12:12:33 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, it more like an American company is making a product in the US, exporting it to a German subsidiary to sell the the rest of the world, and then bringing the money back into the US all without paying US income tax due to paying German taxes.


By FITCamaro on 6/4/2009 10:25:59 AM , Rating: 2
Why should they pay taxes on income that isn't earned in the United States? If you live overseas for the majority of the year, you don't have to pay income taxes in the US. Why should companies be any different?

Because they're big and evil right?


Microsoft is Desparate
By dlapine on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: Microsoft is Desparate
By Kenenniah on 6/4/2009 12:47:27 PM , Rating: 5
First off, gross profit isn't net profit. Look at the numbers, it's only revenue - cost of goods sold on your link. You still have the R & D expenses, marketing, general and administrative expenses and so on. In fact, look at the bottom of the income statement.....do you see net income? It's $15.82 billion from your source, of which $5.826 billion in taxes would be ~37% in taxes.


Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:57:15 AM , Rating: 3
Right now you sound like Obama trying to talk to Iran.

Have you actually ever seen any of the congressional meetings where taxation is bashed in front of a liberal dominated Congress?! Yeah, I think threats will work much better in this case.

Unless you prefer appeasement like Clinton.


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 11:20:16 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
People in the USA do not like to see their jobs vanish ...

No, but we also don't like to see whats in out pockets vanish, and then magically reappear into the pockets of someone who didn't earn it (Both government and entitlement)


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 11:57:28 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Thats does not give him the right to openly threaten a democratically elected govt & expect them to give in to his threats/demands.

He isn't threatening them. He's telling them that anymore taxation and he will relocate his business. He is making business decisions that are best for his shareholders - he isn't in business to make the government happy, as he doesn't work for them.
quote:
Let him try threatening the E.U. commission about the huge fines they made him pay & will continue to fine him even more.

I've always wished that they would pull out all their locations and productions out of EU countries entirely. Let them get zero revenue and zero employment from Microsoft.
quote:
Hey this is not the way to solve your problems

You see, these are the ways the solve the problems. These "problems" you call them are going to be solved by what is best for the business, not whats best for governments.


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 1:02:56 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
OK fine if thats what he wants then he doesnt have to go to the press for cheap publicity with such remarks.

Wake up. Every politician in congress and Obama have gone to the press to castrate automotive executives, bank executives, and everybody else...which wasn't necessary, given that the choices their business made were direct results of the regulations put on them by these same very people.
quote:
He goes ahead & does whats good for him.

Are you insane? Balmer already made his money. He's doing what is best for the company he represents. And I think its a good idea that he let the American people know that business are saying "enough is enough" to this taxation. People blindly follow politicians assuming they know whats best - well, not in this case.
quote:
The very fact he makes such comments to the press shows other motives behind them-warning the govt to refrain or change its course of action.

Um, and Obama and congress's remarks to private business representatives don't? Their remarks about NEEDING cap and trade and pushing their lefty global warming agenda doesn't reveal their "other motives" of profit through their cap & trade business investments (Al Gore)?
quote:
You don't talk to the congress through the press,rather write to them or meet them or through your lobby in DC.

BS. Congress goes through the press to attack any and everyone they don't agree with. Even recently they went through the press to attack a private radio program (Limbaugh). So don't give me this "show respect" crap when they don't have respect for the people they represent.
quote:
Its definitely a reckless move.

No, it shows the recklessness of the administration, and what the consequences will be if they keep digger deeper into everyone's pockets.


RE: Reckless move
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/4/2009 1:40:06 PM , Rating: 2
It seems like mdogs444 has a chip on his shoulder and an axe to grind, today. Getting back to an earlier point that stood out to me, does it seem a bit strange that mdogs444 is denying utterly the usefulness of government grants for education?

For jobs like those in the IT industry, a college education is pretty much a necessity, and a great many people in this country can in no way afford to go to college without some form of financial aid.

If mdogs444 is so keen on eliminating the "lazy" and "useless" poor, why wouldn't he be happy to give them as many chances to improve themselves as possible?

Yes I work at Microsoft, and yes I have a college education. I came from a poor family, however, and my parents were neither lazy nor useless. They sweat blood to put myself and my two brothers through good schools, and even then we didn't have enough money without the kindness of people and the help of government programs. I make twice average US salary, but had those programs not been there to take advantage of, I would be working back in Iowa as a crop duster, or be enlisted in the Army right now...

Those *are* the other options. It just struck me as funny how mdogs would be so willing to put the final nail in the casket of an educated middle class workforce.


RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 1:44:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
mdogs444 is denying utterly the usefulness of government grants for education?

Because I don't believe in government grants, althought their are plenty. I believe in government backed student loans. Education means much more when you have to pay for it over the next 10 years. It gives you a method to go to school, without everyone else paying for it.
quote:
way afford to go to college without some form of financial aid.

Loans. Loans. Loans. Shit, we may as well give everyone a house if they can't afford it. Oh wait, we already do.
quote:
why wouldn't he be happy to give them as many chances to improve themselves as possible?

First, we already give them those opportunities. I just refuse to hand the accomplishments over to them. If you want to go to school, then take out loans.
quote:
It just struck me as funny how mdogs would be so willing to put the final nail in the casket of an educated middle class workforce.

Again. There is no nail in the coffin. Federal student loans are available for everyone. Just because I wont GIVE you the money to go to school, does not mean I do not want you to have an education. I just want you to pay for it.


RE: Reckless move
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/4/2009 2:05:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
without everyone else paying for it.


You yourself use a great many programs daily that are funded by the government, and by extension, the rest of us. That is the fuction of a government, it provides services and infrastructure.

I'm quite sure you would like to see us go back to the days of child labor and workers being beaten by corporate thugs. Everyone else has helped pay for the roads you use, the military, police, and other personnel that protect all of us.. Government is a cooperative enterprise. You may be vociferous, but you are still only one opinion.

Would you rather have a firefighter have you sign a chit before he pulls you out of your burning home? That seems to be the for-profit world you advocate.


RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 2:11:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You yourself use a great many programs daily that are funded by the government, and by extension, the rest of us. That is the function of a government, it provides services and infrastructure.

Actually, the government's function is to protect the states from external enemies, and to protect the rights of the people by establishing rights that the states cannot take away. No where in the constitution or bill of rights does it say you are entitled to free college, or a house, or money to sit around on your ass. Government was not formed to provide services, and the constitution is not a living document.
quote:
I'm quite sure you would like to see us go back to the days of child labor and workers being beaten by corporate thugs.

Yes, thats pretty much what I've been advocating. <rolls eyes>
quote:
Everyone else has helped pay for the roads you use, the military, police, and other personnel that protect all of us.

No, not EVERYONE, but most people do, yes. Including me. I do pay for the services I use. But the ones who use the services the MOST relatively do pay not anything.
quote:
Government is a cooperative enterprise.

Now you're really scaring me. Government is not an enterprise, a business, or a profiting entity. They exist only to PROTECT the states and the citizens from harm.
quote:
Would you rather have a firefighter have you sign a chit before he pulls you out of your burning home?

Considering my father was captain of a metropolitan city fire department, I'm going to have to say that was a stupid question. However, my father also shares the same views I do.
quote:
That seems to be the for-profit world you advocate.

Not everything is "for profit" in my perfect world...I just happen to NOT believe in handouts. I believe in equal opportunity, not equal outcome. I believe in personal freedom to do as you wish, and make something of yourself...not relying on others to steer you on a path and provide you with a job, house, telephone, and monthly check.


RE: Reckless move
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/4/2009 2:28:13 PM , Rating: 3
I don't disagree with you for desiring to have people take their own futures for themselves. I disagree with you to the extent to which you advocate cutting opportunities away.

Government is not a business. You misunderstood the definition of the word enterprise:
a purposeful or industrious undertaking (especially one that requires effort or boldness); "he had doubts about the whole enterprise"

By that definition, every government or ruling body on this planet is an enterprise, as are most corporate entities. Hell, driving to work on some days can be a sort of enterprise.
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-...

And government exists to protect the states from without as within. Therefore who else but the government can step in and say "enough is enough" when our schools are running down and there isn't enough educated workforce here, so we import from other countries?

quote:
No, not EVERYONE, but most people do, yes. Including me. I do pay for the services I use. But the ones who use the services the MOST relatively do pay not anything.


So you would rather get out of your car and see a homeless man frozen to death on the sidewalk because there was neither food nor a shelter for him? Ignoring the moral implications, this is bad for a city in general. Think of the impact to tourism!

quote:
Considering my father was captain of a metropolitan city fire department, I'm going to have to say that was a stupid question.


It was most definitely not a stupid question. You seem to be advocating the complete privatization of the American way of life, and the decimalization, if not the outright destruction of the American government.

quote:
Not everything is "for profit" in my perfect world...I just happen to NOT believe in handouts. I believe in equal opportunity, not equal outcome. I believe in personal freedom to do as you wish, and make something of yourself...not relying on others to steer you on a path and provide you with a job, house, telephone, and monthly check.


You should say that to the CEOs accepting billions of dollars of our money, and then padding their wallets with it. I'm not saying that what you're saying is necessarily wrong. What I'm saying is that your own illustrious corporate leaders are doing the same thing that the people waiting in line at the food bank are.


RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 2:54:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I disagree with you to the extent to which you advocate cutting opportunities away.

Slowly removing entitlement programs are the only way to increase motivation in the workforce and to create a sense of urgency for people who normally wouldn't care about education to start taking it more seriously, and not so much for granted.
quote:
So you would rather get out of your car and see a homeless man frozen to death on the sidewalk because there was neither food nor a shelter for him?

Look - everything has different scenarios. If its the same guy that has been living on welfare and entitlements for years, well....I'm not much for death, but lets face it, he's not offering anything to society. So it may be immoral in some ways, but all life is. I do not believe in making fiscal and regulatory decisions based on "moral emotions".
quote:
You seem to be advocating the complete privatization of the American way of life, and the decimalization, if not the outright destruction of the American government.

I do believe in privatization of 99% of the American way of life. I do not believe in a nanny state, nor do i need be dependent upon government. That is a recipe for disaster, much like our #1 spending problem in the United States - social programs.
quote:
You should say that to the CEOs accepting billions of dollars of our money, and then padding their wallets with it.

You think I was in favor of the bailouts? I do not believe in government intervention or regulation like we've been seeing. Those companies should have gone down the tubes to bankruptcy last year.


RE: Reckless move
By glitchc on 6/4/2009 3:16:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
decimalization, .... of the American government.


Well, why didn't you say so? Let's decimalize the American g.o.v.e.r.n.m.e.n.t. right now.

Government grants hard at work providing education to the masses.

</joke>


RE: Reckless move
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/4/2009 4:25:05 PM , Rating: 2
haha you got me :X


RE: Reckless move
By smackababy on 6/4/2009 2:36:17 PM , Rating: 2
There is no equal opportunity in the education system. Without these "handouts" the poor would remain uneducated and poor. That is exactly what this country needs isn't it? I am all for not giving hand outs too business, but for people whose parents can't afford to send them to college is just plain stupid. You're effectivly condemning the children for the mistakes of the parents. The parents shouldn't get free money or any hand outs, but those that have had no opportunity to do so shouldn't be throw out with them.


RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 2:58:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but for people whose parents can't afford to send them to college is just plain stupid.

Everyone, let me repeat...EVERYONE is eligible for government backed student loans. You dont NEED grants. You are not entitled to go to the best of the best or the most expensive college in the country. Why is it fair for you to have other people pay for your college so you can make more money, when you are fully capable of paying back loans after school when you are making that money?

Just because you cannot afford to buy a new car with cash, should you be entitled to have it paid for you by the taxpayers, because you don't want to take out a loan?


RE: Reckless move
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/4/2009 4:41:54 PM , Rating: 2
Did you need to get a government grant to pay for your college? Have you spent the last few decades of your life trying to pay it all off? Thats not me, thats my dad, by the way. He got out of college in his 20's and now in his 50's he is still trying to pay it all off.

He isn't lazy, he has a phd and is a BAR certified lawyer. How in your right mind do you expect people who are required to take out 100+ thousand dollars in student loans to keep up?

For me, I got grants, I needed them, and I am perfectly fine with sharing my good fortune so that others may have the same opportunities to succeed. I have never understood the "take what you can, share with nobody" philosophy. Everyone in any society is interdependent, and contrary to common belief, selfishness is not the ultimate virtue in any place or time.


RE: Reckless move
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 4:55:15 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Did you need to get a government grant to pay for your college? Have you spent the last few decades of your life trying to pay it all off?

My father's income was high enough that I likely wouldn't qualify for many grants. I paid for my entire college experience - 6 years and two degrees worth - all on my own through student loans and working part time and full time during that period. Its now 8 years since I graduated with my first degree and yes, I'm still paying off college loans. I didn't take handouts, nor do I believe in them. I'm paying off my school long term, and I think that is the correct way to do it. You need to work for what you want, not depend on others work to get you where you want to go.

In my honest opinion, and obviously not too politically correct, the low income classes are already getting more out of the school systems than they are paying in, and thats for at least 12 years worth. I don't see why we need to support another 4+ years at a higher cost. Eventually, and I believe that to be at 18 when you become an adult, that you need to take your life into your own hands and work for what you want. The high school experience was meant to start teaching responsibility and time management. Those two attributes will help you in college and to understand how life is once you're out in the real world. You cannot be babied forever.
quote:
How in your right mind do you expect people who are required to take out 100+ thousand dollars in student loans to keep up?

No one says you are required to. A PHD is not a requirement, as that is far above and beyond what most people have. However, $100,000 in loans is still minuscule compared to the amount of money you will make over your lifetime above and beyond if you did not have any college degree. So, with that being said, I really don't see the complaint being valid.
quote:
For me, I got grants, I needed them, and I am perfectly fine with sharing my good fortune so that others may have the same opportunities to succeed.

And that's completely fine. However, many people do not qualify for grants, and thus I can feel their pain for entitlement programs. They feel they put in more than the average person, and get out less than the people who use these programs. Its all perception - if we had the fair tax at 25%, and everyone had to pay that regardless of income, they would still be paying higher amounts in taxes than the lower class, but at least we would feel they are paying their fair share. Many people talk about the rich paying their fair share, but make no mention of the people who pay nothing and take everything.
quote:
selfishness is not the ultimate virtue in any place or time.

Capitalism is not a government form that is geared around the "common good". Often times those are Stalinist types of governments, or socialism, or fascism, or even communism...and all have proven to fail. The "common good" is an emotion which does not play well with the economy and everyone's standard of living that they wish to have. In fact, it does nothing but remove motivation and the will to succeed and increase output due to penalties of taxation and social programs benefiting people who do less than you.


RE: Reckless move
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/4/2009 5:55:14 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Capitalism is not a government form that is geared around the "common good". Often times those are Stalinist types of governments, or socialism, or fascism, or even communism...and all have proven to fail. The "common good" is an emotion which does not play well with the economy and everyone's standard of living that they wish to have. In fact, it does nothing but remove motivation and the will to succeed and increase output due to penalties of taxation and social programs benefiting people who do less than you.


Capitalism is not a governmental form at all. Our government is a democratic republic. As it says in the very first sentence of our constitution:

quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


I'm pretty sure that our government was formed to promote the common good. (rolls eyes)

Capitalism is an economic system, and as an economic system it is very good at what it does. Capitalism, however, exists in cooperation with our government. It is not the government, never has been, and never should be.


RE: Reckless move
By afkrotch on 6/5/2009 11:54:12 AM , Rating: 1
Wow, sounds like he's a pretty crappy lawyer if he can't pay back 100K loan.

I can pay back 100k loan in 30 years and I'm not a PHD or a BAR certified lawyer. Hell, I don't even have a degree. That'd only be $277 a month (not including interest).


RE: Reckless move
By d3mag0gu3 on 6/5/2009 1:28:03 PM , Rating: 2
he was an immigration lawyer, which was going pretty well until 9/11. His firm shut down soon after that, because of lack of business.


RE: Reckless move
By hyvonen on 6/4/2009 6:12:01 PM , Rating: 2
I believe in equal opportunity, not equal outcome.
It's not equal opportunity, if you have to go to a bad school just because it's cheaper, while your neighbor with a worse GPA/SAT can go to one that's better and more expensive because the family had 'old money'.

The only inequality in opportunity should be based on your actual skills and abilities. If you have a mediocre IQ, you should not be allowed to enter a top university, regardless of your checkbook.


RE: Reckless move
By metasin on 6/4/2009 1:56:03 PM , Rating: 2
If all government subsidies to higher education were gone then many of the colleges would likely have to lower tuition rates or close. The explosion of "cheap" loans has obviously contributed to the exponential increase in college tuition. While there would likely still be very poor individuals that could not afford even much lower tuition rates, there would always be academic scholarships and private endowments to help.

Ever wonder why the government decries the excessive profits of industries and calls for higher taxation or ever price fixing to prevent gouging. However, when it comes to higher education it is all about subsidizing their excessive profits not lowering the tuition rates. I guess some special interests are more special than others.


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/6/2009 1:54:50 AM , Rating: 1
mdogs444 it was really interesting discussing with you the subject & how to go about the right way.

Rather unfortunate could not discuss the subject further due prior commitments,so had to leave it there.

Now I am back so here the response-

READ the items marked in bold very carefully.

I do not support any of the parties concerned & I am an observer who gives his opinions on the subject.

Now if you read this link (the source of this article)-

U.S. tax rules let companies defer paying corporate rates as high as 35 percent on most types of foreign profits as long as that money remains invested overseas. Obama says he wants to end such incentives to keep foreign profits tax-deferred so that so that companies would invest them in the U.S .

Barry Bosworth, an economist in Washington at the Brookings Institution research center, said many software companies such as as Microsoft have exploited tax and trade rules in the U.S. and other countries to achieve a low overall tax rate.


“What Microsoft wants to do is deduct the cost at a high tax rate and report the profits at a low tax rate,”

Ballmer is one of 10 U.S. software company executives pushing back against the tax proposals in meetings today with White House officials including Jason Furman, deputy director of the National Economic Council, and the heads of congressional committees such as House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel, a New York Democrat.



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&si...



So in short they are doing just what I said-

Talk to the congress + meet them........


The author of this article in his copy & paste job did not post the items above,for the explicit purpose of inciting a heated discussion on the subject, that why he gave it a title matching that intention/s.

Yes he did succeeded in do so - see the number of comments.

Report the fact as they are & NOT present it to incite a discussion.(you could get in serious trouble do so)


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/6/2009 3:11:00 AM , Rating: 1
To summarize it-

# What Microsoft wants to do is deduct the cost at a high tax rate and report the profits at a low tax rate

# U.S. tax rules let companies defer paying corporate rates as high as 35 percent on most types of foreign profits as long as that money remains invested overseas.

Microsoft have exploited tax and trade rules in the U.S. and other countries to achieve a low overall tax rate.

Just like Hackers actively exploit bugs & all other vulnerabilities in your O.S. system,similarly

Microsoft & others have actively & successfully exploited this bug & all other vulnerabilities in the TAX system.

Obama says he wants to end such incentives to keep foreign profits tax-deferred so that so that companies would invest them in the U.S . & also fix flaws & bugs that create a means to inject a hostile TAX code onto vulnerable tax systems.



So in short Obama wants to address these important & critical flaws /vulnerabilities with patches & will bring critical TAX fixes with some CRITICAL tax updates" similar to Microsoft's patch tuesday.


RE: Reckless move
By superflex on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
RE: Reckless move
By fic2 on 6/4/2009 12:32:28 PM , Rating: 1
Obama should reply, "I guess we will have to look at replacing MS software throughout the gov't with Linux and other open source projects."


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/4/2009 1:00:06 PM , Rating: 2
Thats what I would call responding to the threat ... & even worse if he starts funding development work on "Linux and other open source projects" through the stimulus package funds.


RE: Reckless move
By mcnabney on 6/4/2009 4:25:42 PM , Rating: 2
Or he could kick-off another round of monopoly investigation. Threaten to break MS into an OS and an application company.


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/6/2009 3:22:08 AM , Rating: 1
Whoever regularly & consistantly vote me down are plain ignorant fools.

Read this-

Ballmer is one of 10 U.S. software company executives pushing back against the tax proposals in meetings today with White House officials including Jason Furman, deputy director of the National Economic Council, and the heads of congressional committees such as House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel, a New York Democrat.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&si...

I enjoy being voted down thus proving my point that you are Idiots ......(extreme versions)


RE: Reckless move
By crystal clear on 6/6/2009 3:25:55 AM , Rating: 2
Forgot to add this-

Thank you for voting me down....


I think the move by MS makes sense
By smackababy on 6/4/09, Rating: -1
RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By invidious on 6/4/2009 9:45:21 AM , Rating: 2
While I agree with your point that we shouldnt tax forien profits, we are not taxing the forieners. We are taxing the money US companies who are collecting their money.

This is the complete opposite of keeping jobs in the US, it will severly hinder american companies ability to compete outside the US. Leaving them with two options to either stop being global (ya right) or leave the US.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By mdogs444 on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By vkat on 6/4/2009 10:03:18 AM , Rating: 5
I am not a tax accountant, but there is a slight discrepancy here. You had mentioned that Companies profit are taxed and then again the employees income (given from Companies profit) are taxed. I think Employees pay check comes from Companies Sales and the profits are calculated after giving the paycheck. Basically the employees paycheck are expenses for which the companies do not pay tax.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By callmeroy on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By vkat on 6/4/2009 2:20:10 PM , Rating: 3
Employee and Employer pays some 6.xx% for Social security each. This constitutes one component of the burden (tax term). Burden includes Health care premiums, social security tax, 401k match. The Burden is written down as an expense by the company.


By zombiexl on 6/4/2009 3:47:19 PM , Rating: 2
Actually it's right around 7.65% each for FICA + Medicare taxes. So between the employer and employee its over 15%.


By choadenstein on 6/4/2009 3:53:30 PM , Rating: 3
I have not read every post, but I believe he may be trying to describe the double taxation on corporate incomes. But the taxes on employee payrolls are not where the double taxation comes from.

The double taxation on corporate income comes from taxation of corporate profits at the corporate level and then the taxation on the same money when it is distributed to the corporate shareholders in terms of dividends, capital gains, etc...

Income in this case gets taxed twice. Each shareholder owns a percentage of the company proportionately equal to the number of shares they own compared to the total number of outstanding shares.

For an easy to understand and simplified example:

If ABC Corp. has two shares, and I own one, I own 50% of ABC Corp.

Continuing, say ABC Corp earns $200 and the corporate tax rate is 25%. So Corp a pays $50 in corporate tax and is left with $150. Now, ABC Corp is setup to pass all corporate earnings on to it's shareholders. So I get my 50% share of $150, netting me $75.

Now I have to pay tax on that $75 (most likely in this case it will be taxed as a dividend... but it doesn't matter, it's still taxed again). Say the tax rate is 20%. So the government takes another $15, and I get $60.

So that $200 that I had a 50% stake in was taxed first at 25% at the corporate level, then again at 20% at the personal level. The same money was only earned once, but taxed twice.

That is the double taxation argument for corporate incomes in a nutshell.

The estate tax is another version of double taxation (probably the most clear example of double taxation ever). You earn the money, you paid income tax on it. You die, you get taxed again. Simple as that.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By MrPeabody on 6/4/2009 10:16:34 AM , Rating: 1
Don't forget that anything the worker buys has probably already been significantly taxed. Raw materials had to be purchased (tax), the manufacturing process needs land for a manufacturing plant and electricity to run the equipment. (tax and tax) And, of course, the finished product needs to be transported to the shelf. What's the tax on fuel these days?

Am I missing anything? Of course I am. There's always another tax. Every one of these taxes will reflected in the final price of the product that the worker spends his taxed income on.

Quite a taxing dilemma.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By therealnickdanger on 6/4/2009 10:59:30 AM , Rating: 1
While it might not be 100% perfect, I think it's the best plan around:

http://www.fairtax.org


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By bhieb on 6/4/2009 11:24:26 AM , Rating: 2
I agree it looks very compelling on the surface.

But what happens in times like these? Since this tax is basically a "growth" tax, what happens when we (allegedly) need to bail out a few key US companies but spending is way down. The basic problem is that we need the most tax revenue when we are in times that usually have the lowest retail spending.

Now arguably the distressed companies may not be so distressed if this had been implemented in a time of high growth, but certainly it cannot succeed with retail spending being as low as it is now. There would need to be some "good" years to build up a surplus for the bad.

That brings up another point, are we comfortable with the US government holding a huge surplus. I for one think they would squander it rather than hold out for the rainy days. We can see from Bush what can happen when you inherit a moderate surplus. He basically went on a spending spree. I say this as a conservative, because he definitely was NOT. I can only imagine the creative social programs an Obama would come up with if he had a few trillion to spare.


By SublimeSimplicity on 6/4/2009 1:50:41 PM , Rating: 2
It would result in the government getting a percentage of the GDP. Even during this huge down turn, the GDP is down what 6%? Local governments deal with much larger fluctuations in revenue, why not the federal government?

What it does do is force the government to be very clear about what something is going to cost. The next time they "need" to bail someone out, a reporter can ask, "how will this affect the tax rate". Since there's just one number, that affects everyone and they are accountable for, my bet is they'll be a little more careful in their spending.


By jarman on 6/4/2009 2:00:33 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
But what happens in times like these? Since this tax is basically a "growth" tax, what happens when we (allegedly) need to bail out a few key US companies but spending is way down. The basic problem is that we need the most tax revenue when we are in times that usually have the lowest retail spending.


Well, first of all, no company should be "bailed out" to begin with. If a company fails it should be allowed to go into chapter 7 bankruptcy where its assets are sold-off to entrepreneurs or other entities in order to repay as much of the secured debt as possible.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By adiposity on 6/4/2009 1:37:41 PM , Rating: 3
Have you ever heard of a resale certificate? A resale certificate allows you to purchase items tax free, provided you are going to sell these items (individually, or part of a manufactured product). So no, the components of something you sell are not taxed when you buy them, only to be taxed again. They are taxed when they go to the consumer.

-Dan


By MrPeabody on 6/5/2009 9:37:56 AM , Rating: 2
Those aren't the taxes I was talking about. I'm talking about taxes inherent in the production and distribution of a product.

A business that produces a product has to pay all kinds of taxes in the pursuit of said production. This necessarily drives up the final base price of that finished product, before sales tax even comes into it. That finished product also has to be distributed to customers. There are taxes involved in this distribution process that also have to be accounted for in the final sale price of the product.

In short, a resale certificate allows you to purchase items free of a retail sales tax. It doesn't do anything to address any of the other taxes that help define the total cost of a given product.


By Spacecomber on 6/4/2009 1:38:25 PM , Rating: 4
We know. It's your money. You want to keep it. Heard you before.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By adiposity on 6/4/2009 1:49:46 PM , Rating: 3
Hey, I hate taxes just like anyone else. But let's be honest here. You are just having an emotional reaction to the "number" of ways to be taxed. That's not logical.

If we reduced the number and kind of taxes, guess what? The remaining tax rates would have to go up. The same amount of tax revenue (approximately) would have to be collected, one way or another.

The fact that the taxes can be applied in various ways at various stages may make the tax code confusing, or even cumbersome. But don't let's pretend if we simplified the code, the govt. could suddenly do with less money. It's massively overspending already, so tax revenues either need to go up, or spending needs to go down. Personally, I favor reducing spending massively.

Be honest, though. If the various ways of taxing all had their rates reduced by a factor of 10, you would much prefer that to reducing the number of taxes and keeping the rates high.

Instead of complaining that we are taxed in "so many ways," complain about the average tax paid by the average american, or the fact that even that high tax is not enough to pay for the govt. services we have. That's a more valid concern than the number of tax points.

By the way, you are wrong about several of your taxes. For one example, workers are not paid out of profits. They are paid out of revenue. Half of the federal taxes on the wages are paid by the employer. All these wages plus the taxes paid by the company are subtracted from the revenue. Only then is profit calculated. So no, the money is not taxed twice. If the employee tax rate is lower than the company's (it often is), this actually lowers the amount of tax vs. the company keeping it as profit. So you might want to learn a bit more about how taxing works for businesses.

-Dan


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By MrPeabody on 6/4/2009 3:01:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hey, I hate taxes just like anyone else. But let's be honest here. You are just having an emotional reaction to the "number" of ways to be taxed. That's not logical.


The more complex a tax code is, the more wailing and gnashing of teeth is justified.

How much does it cost a business to adhere to such a terribly complicated tax code? How many audits does your business have to suffer through, on average? How many accountants are on the payroll? How many tax attorneys are consulted for each major business decision?

How much do you pay your accountant to do your taxes? Or, barring that, how much of your time and money do you spend wading through your taxes yourself?

How many man-hours does the I.R.S. spend enforcing such a convoluted knot of provisions and deductions and such?

How many dollars and how many hours did they estimate was lost just to prepare taxes in the United States last year?

If the answer to any of these questions is above zero, then I think you're doing mdogs444 an injustice. And a terribly condescending one at that.


By mcnabney on 6/4/2009 4:22:18 PM , Rating: 2
The complicated tax code was made complicated by all of the loopholes that the same businesses have lobbied congress to put in.

Want simple?

Lower the rates, but allow no deductions whatsoever. Nice and simple, but business will never go for that because they think they can pay less by saving more on loopholes and deductions than the cost of managing the complexity.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By adiposity on 6/4/2009 7:14:09 PM , Rating: 2
If he were complaining about the complexity of the code, you'd have a point. But instead, he's complaining about the amount of taxes. Read his post carefully, and you'll see his objection is that it *increases* the total taxes.

If we simplified the tax code, tax revenue would go up. I'm in favor of this. But those that want to pay less in taxes, are not. The loopholes (i.e., the complexities) were created by the same people that want low taxes.

He's complaing "they tax us here, they tax us there, they tax us everywhere!" Not, "accounts are so expensive, why don't they simplify the tax code."

Your point is taken, but it wasn't his.

-Dan


By adiposity on 6/4/2009 7:15:24 PM , Rating: 2
err, accounts=accountants...


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By Ammohunt on 6/4/2009 3:47:20 PM , Rating: 2
Wrong! if we cut wasteful Government spending we won't need to collect as much taxes we have far to many three letter agencies.

The only tax system that is fair is a flat tax for everyone.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By mcnabney on 6/4/2009 4:28:13 PM , Rating: 2
The 'flat tax' will have to be 50%, or higher, to balance the budget. Also, we already know from numerous economic studies that people start cheating on sales tax when it goes over 10-12%. A consumption-based tax would simply not work in our economy.


By HueyD on 6/4/2009 4:56:18 PM , Rating: 2
It will now since they have spent soo much money. Before all of these bailouts it would have been around 29%. See the http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer


By Ammohunt on 6/5/2009 5:45:59 PM , Rating: 2
That why a flat tax of 25% will work. The fair tax is a dumb idea.


By Denigrate on 6/6/2009 11:54:52 AM , Rating: 2
Existing workers are paid out of revenues. New workers/jobs are created from profits.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By smackababy on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By mdogs444 on 6/4/2009 10:03:17 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
America not being a global player and being down right greedy.

Not true. The American people and American businesses are global players. We want to keep prices down - everything from computers, to software, to oil, to cars, etc. We don't want more taxation - we don't even want the taxation that's being forced on us.

Its the current American government, who strives for power and pet projects and socialism and entitlement, that is not being a fair player and are downright greedy.

So if you want to lay blame, don't blame the people or the companies, blame Reid, Pelosi, and Obama...they hold the power to make these decisions.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By smackababy on 6/4/2009 10:12:41 AM , Rating: 5
The people voted for them, so they are to blame. You can't blame elected officials completely. The morons who elected them hold more blame.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By mdogs444 on 6/4/09, Rating: 0
RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By smackababy on 6/4/2009 10:31:18 AM , Rating: 2
My comment wasn't about Obama specifically, but all politicians in general. I think the main problem with the government is there are professional politicians. Why can't an average man run? Wouldn't they know what was best for average people? I did like the Jimmy Carter bit though. Lol


By therealnickdanger on 6/4/2009 11:05:35 AM , Rating: 3
LOL

"The people threw me out and now the people must be punished."

-Mayor Ed Koch

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-07/200...

No doubt about it, we are all being punished for the mistakes of the majority right now.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By invidious on 6/4/2009 10:06:13 AM , Rating: 2
Prices wont rise significantly, the forien owned companies dont have to pay two sets of taxes and our companies have to compete with their prices.


By smackababy on 6/4/2009 10:14:45 AM , Rating: 2
So, we will get global players based from America operating with less of a profit margin. That is great, I'd love for MS to be the next GM... It hurts everyone for these big, evil corporations to lose money. They make the products, they employ the workforce, and they drive the economy.


By nathanvaneps on 6/4/2009 11:53:08 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, because no other country has such a thing as an export tax.


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By AntiM on 6/4/2009 10:58:23 AM , Rating: 2
As long as the system is being abused, it makes sense for the US Gov to try to recoup some of the ill-gotten gains.

quote:
..... it typically develops products like Windows and then transfers the licenses for free to an Ireland subsidiary. This subsidiary then proceeds to sell them, free of U.S. taxes.


I do agree that taxes have become ridiculous. But as long as people keep making demands that government should fix this and that, then the gov will continue to need more money.

Would you rather the money come out of your hard earned paycheck, or from from companies that use unscrupulous tricks to keep from having to pay their fair share of the tax burden?


By bhieb on 6/4/2009 11:08:52 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Would you rather the money come out of your hard earned paycheck, or from from companies that use unscrupulous tricks to keep from having to pay their fair share of the tax burden?

It is never a tax issue and always a spending issue. I'd rather the government not spend the trillions they do, and take less from everyone.

To address your other implication. It is not a "trick" or "unscrupulous". Have you ever been through an IRS audit? Rest assured if what they are doing is in anyway illegal they would be paying for it dearly in fines from the IRS. You may not approve the law, but that does not make it illegal, trickery, or unscrupulous. The IRS is the closest thing we have to the EU courts (in that they are vicious and hard core), you don't get by with any "tricks".


RE: I think the move by MS makes sense
By MrBungle123 on 6/4/2009 11:34:11 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
As long as the system is being abused, it makes sense for the US Gov to try to recoup some of the ill-gotten gains.


Big corporations got big by doing good business and creating products that had a high demand not stealing it from the poor or less fortunate. What the president, most of our elected officials, and the “social justice” crowd that voted them into office do not understand is that the jobs, products, tax revenue, and enhancements to living standards that come from having a large corporation setup shop in an area are a byproduct of that corporation and not its primary purpose. Corporations do not exist to create jobs, they do not exist to make your life better, they do not exist to produce tax revenue, they exist to generate as much wealth as possible for their shareholders; which is why if you setup a situation where they can make more money for their shareholders by moving overseas they will do it.

Corporations ultimately pass all their costs onto the consumer; because of this the corporate income tax (CIT) is effectively a double tax… on us… the public. What we should do is eliminate the CIT all together, and replace it with a national sales tax so that the public can see where all this money is coming from. Then maybe… just maybe… people will realize that when they stick it to “the rich” they are really sticking it to all of us. It is pretty safe to assume that any increase in taxes to corporations in general is going to translate into increased prices at the retail level, the corporations will not pay this tax, they do not pay any tax, you will.


By bhieb on 6/4/2009 11:49:05 AM , Rating: 2
To add to your comment if the market cannot handle an increase in price, the other option is to cut costs. Unfortunately the easiest way to do this is to layoff people. So they will raise price until sales drop to a point where the people are not needed. Or, as Balmer points out, it becomes more attractive to move where there is less cost.

Why the general public thinks that the shareholders and fat cats at the top will just eat the loss is beyond me. They may take an acceptable hit, but at some point they will either leave or close shop. As you said corporations and their shareholders are not in it to help others, they risk their money for an expected return on that investment.


By rudy on 6/8/2009 10:37:57 PM , Rating: 2
The reason the system is abused is simple. The US government through decades of opposing views has made a legal mess. Special interests will come in and point out rightfully so that they cannot be competitive with the current tax system so instead of lowering the taxes the government will make up a stupidly over complicated system which allows them to find a loophole or get a subsidy. Rather then just fixing the bad policy or stupid tax.

A great example will be the auto industry and CAFE standards. Instead of just raising the tax on gas we will force the car makers to meet stupid restrictions. And they will respond to this by finding stupid loopholes. This very same situation led to the birth of the SUV which was actually a loophole it allowed companies to create a truck classify it as so and escape MPG regulations. So instead of people buying a sedan they all started buying SUVs. And the reason they did that was because they knew if they taxed the gas businesses in shipping in the US would not be competitive. Once again we will make the same mistake. Tax the gas and end the stupidity. Heck if people get better MPG do to forced lame cars they may just drive all that much more since they can go further for less but if you tax the gas that will be less likely.


By wempa on 6/4/2009 2:24:47 PM , Rating: 2
This seems like a tricky situation. Where was the product developed ? If the cost to develop the product is a US business expense, it doesn't seem right that they'd be able to deduct the business expense and then sell it in another country to avoid paying the taxes on the profit. That DOES seem like cheating the system. Then again, I don't know much about how imports/exports work in the case of software.


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