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Brandon Hill (Blog) - March 20, 2007 9:04 PM

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37 comment(s) - last by Hoser McMoose.. on Mar 22 at 4:22 PM

Manatee County's two plug-in hybrid buses to cost $450k USD

Hybrid automobile are slowly starting to gain acceptance and traction in the U.S. auto market and it now looks as though the Manatee County School District in Florida is going hybrid-crazy as well -- on a much larger scale. The school system is welcoming two plug-in hybrid school buses, Wouk and Limpio, into the 250-vehicle fleet.

Manatee County school buses travel over one million miles per year, so the stop-and-go nature of bus travel should be an opportune test for a hybrid bus. "Two years from now, we'll be standing here telling you how much we saved," said district vehicle maintenance supervisor Don Ross.

The two buses, which are manufactured by IC Corporation and Enova Systems Inc., will be tested for the next two years against two control buses which will run the same route. Detailed comparisons will be made between the four buses including acceleration/deceleration and fuel economy.

Wouk and Limpio, which are powered by a conventional diesel V8 internal combustion engine (ICE) and an 80 kW electric motor are expected to improve fuel efficiency by as much as 100% while reducing greenhouse emissions by up to 90%.

Manatee County's first foray into hybrid technology won't come cheap. Wouk and Limpio will cost $225,000 USD each.

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Solar

By Harkonnen on 3/21/2007 1:07:49 AM , Rating: 2

They should put a bunch of solar panels on the roof. Since there is so much room. Could definitely improve the mileage even more.

All we need now is solar panels with like 50-60% efficiency :P

RE: Solar

By GhandiInstinct on 3/21/2007 1:49:58 AM , Rating: 2

Why don't ALL vehicle types have that, we all drive during sun light, why not save a little at least?

How much would they cost? A hybrid with solar panels, it's just connecting the battery.

A few small steps towards a giant leap of efficiency.

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RE: Solar

By Hare on 3/21/2007 4:28:33 AM , Rating: 2

Because the cost of the panel is very high and the panels are very inefficient. A small panel wouldn't really help but it sure would cost a lot.

"A 1 m2 high-performance solar panel produces 200 watts of power under full sunlight but costs $2000"

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RE: Solar

By Calin on 3/21/2007 12:11:15 PM , Rating: 2

Small solar panels are used on cars to compensate for the parasitic loads (alarm system, car radio, ...) in case the car is not started for a long time. I've heard Mercedes use them on some of their cars

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RE: Solar

By Oregonian2 on 3/21/2007 1:46:16 PM , Rating: 2

Perhaps a Mercedes hybrid bus has one too. :-)

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RE: Solar

By RogueSpear on 3/21/2007 1:02:33 PM , Rating: 2

I would think that if produced in enough quantity the cost would eventually come down.

I think that my schedule is fairly typical - my car is parked outside from about 7:30am until around 4 or 5pm Monday through Friday while I am in my office. Obviously not everyday is picture perfect sunny, 8 or so hours isn't all day long, and the roof of my car isn't exactly huge but I would think that it would make a difference.

I've seen things on the web where people basically "hack" their Prius by hooking up solar panels they have mounted at home. It's not quite the same as solar panels mounted on the vehicle itself, but if you're parked outside at home enough I suppose it could make a difference.

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RE: Solar

By masher2

(blog) on 3/21/2007 1:36:07 PM , Rating: 1

Produce gold chains in quantity and they'll still be expensive. Because gold is rare...and so are the materials used to make high-efficiency solar panels. Until we get a technology breakthrough, their cost isn't going to drop substantially just from economies of scale. Solar panels also add parasitic weight and, if made flat for maximum efficiency, additional wind resistance. Both of which reduce vehicle efficiency.

Finally, if your vehicle is parked all day, it'd be far more efficient to just plug it in there, rather than carting around a massive solar panel whereever you go.

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RE: Solar

By RogueSpear on 3/21/2007 6:41:28 PM , Rating: 2

Well if you want a gold chain, you have no choice but to use gold. Nothing says that solar panel all must use the same material. And in fact not all of them do. So do you think that every single kind of solar panel that are in production use very rare materials? I'm actually asking this seriously because I don't know - not trying to be a smartass.

If indeed this is the case I don't think that they will always require expensive material. I don't write down all of the details of what I read or clip out articles, but I've read plent of them discussing up and coming technologies. Technologies that have a realistic chance of coming to market in the near future.

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/stor...

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RE: Solar

By doctor sam adams on 3/21/2007 1:49:40 PM , Rating: 2

If the 200W figure is accurate, then across an 8 hour day at peak absorption you would get:

200 x 8 = 1600 watt-hours = 1.6 kilowatt-hours

That's enough energy to run 1.6 kilowatts of power for one hour. Let's say you can store that energy and use it all up in one second in a perfectly efficient manner:

1.6 kilowatt-hours x 3600 sec/hr = 5760 kilowatt-seconds = 5760 kilojoules

One horsepower is 768 watts. Assuming your engine is a moderately sized 175 horsepower engine, it has a power output of:

175 x 768 = 134.4 kilowatts = 134.4 kilojoules per second

Assuming that the engine output this power at 100% efficiency, your daily solar power collection would run the engine for about 42 seconds. However, realistically speaking, a car engine actually delivers around 10% of the energy it consumes, so that would be closer to 5 seconds of power.

Still a difference, but small. Now ponder how the oil managed to store up all that energy in the first place!

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RE: Solar

By RogueSpear on 3/21/2007 6:34:09 PM , Rating: 2

I'm not going to argue with your math equations, but some of your assumptions are a little off - my Prius, a vehicle with rechargeable batteries that can be used toward moving the vehicle, does not put out 175hp.

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RE: Solar

By Hoser McMoose on 3/22/2007 3:24:37 PM , Rating: 2

200W from a 1m^2 solar panel is a pretty ambitious amount! That's about the maximum I would expect from a current solar panel in mid-day sun, middle of summer and located in between the tropics. In real-world use in the U.S. you should probably expect more on the order of 100W/m^2 during daylight hours when average out throughout the year.

Now, quick off the top of my head estimate would put the roof of a bus at around 10m^2 (roughly 2m x 5m). That gives us 1KW worth of solar panel during daylight hours, or during an 8-hour school day we've got 8KWh worth of power. The buses have an 80KW electric drive system, so we're looking at about 6 minutes worth of charge for their electric motors per day. Not exactly going to get the thing very far (especially since it still needs the V8 engine in addition to the electric drive), and probably simply not worth the cost.

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RE: Solar

By Mitch101 on 3/21/2007 10:04:50 AM , Rating: 2

I read somewhere there was a recent major breakthrough that could get solar cells way up on efficiency. Was announced about a month ago at most. Trying to find it but coming up empty.

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RE: Solar

By Calin on 3/21/2007 12:13:51 PM , Rating: 2

Some more time ago, I've heard of some 40% efficiency - using a small active element, which is lighted through a refraction net. The refraction net will send away the infrared (which is not used by the active element) and add only the visible light on the cell.
However, this would need to be oriented perpendicular to the sun for best effects.

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RE: Solar

By Hoser McMoose on 3/22/2007 3:33:09 PM , Rating: 2

The most efficient photovoltaic cell demonstrated in a lab was just over 40% efficient. This was just demoed a few months ago and it was a decently large jump over the previous record. Unfortunately it also used exotic materials that would make the implementation about 100 times as expensive as current (already not cheap) cells.

We aren't likely to get better then 25% efficiencies in anything at all economical for the next 15 years.

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RE: Solar

By Hoser McMoose on 3/22/2007 4:22:02 PM , Rating: 2

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Cool

By Hyperlite on 3/20/2007 10:04:42 PM , Rating: 3

I've often wondered why more public transit hasn't converted to hybrids. oh, and LMAO at the article pic. =D

RE: Cool

By Fenixgoon on 3/20/2007 10:25:25 PM , Rating: 2

i didn't even notice that till i read your post.. that pic is money!

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RE: Cool

By amdsupport on 3/20/2007 11:20:33 PM , Rating: 2

they do find some great photos to go with the articles, lol

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RE: Cool

By RU482 on 3/21/2007 12:45:25 AM , Rating: 2

Hmm, from 2001 to 2003, I worked on the Hybrid Project that GM had for their buses. Last time I talked to the guys that were still working there, they said it was rolling out pretty well. Search for Allison Electric Drives EP40 and EP50.

For the 2002 LA Auto show, I helped put together a Silverado with a scaled down version of the buses 280HP electric transmission and a Duramax Diesel. It was a very kick a$$ project to work on. I think that their is a version of this drivetrain soon to be produced for these trucks as well.

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RE: Cool

By Andrevas on 3/21/2007 5:52:41 AM , Rating: 2

Seattle has a large hybrid bus fleet and has for awhile now.

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RE: Cool

By PrinceGaz on 3/21/2007 7:46:11 AM , Rating: 2

Here in Newcastle, NE England, there are a fleet of ten hybrid buses in regular service. Rather than using a conventional diesel powered internal combustion engine, they use a diesel powered turbine which gives much lower emissions and higher efficiency. They look pretty neat too, assuming you like bright yellow.

http://www.transport2000.org.uk/goodpractice/maint...

Okay so they weren't cheap at £250,000 each (approximately US$30,000,000 at current exchange rates ;) but you get what you pay for I suppose.

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RE: Cool

By CascadingDarkness on 3/21/2007 2:25:03 PM , Rating: 2

You must be looking at wrong country for conversion. Rate is 1:1.9596 GBP:USD right now. That would be more like $489,900 USD each.

But if you can seriously get that rate some where I'll go get some pounds, and live on easy street. =P

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RE: Cool

By masteraleph on 3/21/2007 8:07:25 AM , Rating: 2

A number of the NYC MTA buses have converted over...they seem to be putting them into service pretty quickly, with the old ones saved up for shuttle bus service (for when parts of the subway aren't running).

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RE: Cool

By Talcite on 3/21/2007 8:23:23 AM , Rating: 2

Toronto's entire public transit bus fleet is composed of hybrid and bio-diesel buses.

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RE: Cool

By chsh1ca on 3/21/2007 1:04:18 PM , Rating: 2

No, they don't. They're testing them at the moment, but haven't converted/replaced their whole fleet to/with hybrid/bio-diesel buses.

http://www.toronto.ca/environment/initiatives/inde...

quote:
A presentation was made at a Toronto Transit Commission Meeting describing New York City’s experiences with buses using the diesel-electric hybrid engine. These buses use up to 22 per cent less fuel, and reduce carbon monoxide emissions by up to 90 per cent. This technology is being considered for a portion of TTC’s purchase of its upcoming bus order of 330 buses.

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Solar panels...

By daftrok on 3/21/2007 3:04:49 AM , Rating: 2

It would be nice to have the option to include solar panels on the roof rather than just plugging the bus to an outlet, but the fact of the matter is is that this bus already costs over 200,000 dollars, and including a solar panel to the roof will add from 30,000 to 80,000 dollars. Granted they are being used in a sunny area (besides hurricane season), but I think that after they have their fleet of 200+ buses, they will slowly transition towards including solar panels on the roof to save costs.

RE: Solar panels...

By Hare on 3/21/2007 4:31:26 AM , Rating: 3

This bus has an 80 000W engine. High performance solar panels get around 200W per square meter. You do the math :)

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RE: Solar panels...

By masher2

(blog) on 3/21/2007 9:03:26 AM , Rating: 3

Very true....but I'd like to add that 200W/m^2 figure is in full sunlight near noon. During rain, fog, cloudy weather, or early in the morning or late in the evening-- the figure is significantly less.

Direct sunlight just isn't that energetic. If it was, nature would have evolved more mobile plants.

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RE: Solar panels...

By mcq01 on 3/21/2007 10:47:09 AM , Rating: 2

But you could use solar it to power the internal lights etc or other low power systems on the bus.

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RE: Solar panels...

By Calin on 3/21/2007 12:09:13 PM , Rating: 2

Or have solar powered headlights :)
While the solar panels could help, they are just too expensive for the possible gain.
However, the school could install solar panels on its roof - this might be a better solution, as there might be some kind of subsidies.

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RE: Solar panels...

By iNGEN on 3/21/2007 2:40:52 PM , Rating: 2

If everyday were perfectly sunny the bus could get roughly 9% of its power from sunlight. Adjusting for environmental factors I doubt you could top a 5% decrease in fuel cost. I wonder how much 5% of a bus' annual fuel expense is. Anyone? I'm not willing to assume cost effectiveness or not. Before anyone says it, yes, I'm aware I am not accounting for maintenance expense changes...yet.

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There are actually quite common now

By ninjit on 3/21/2007 12:20:58 AM , Rating: 3

GM has had hybrid buses on the road since 2004.
Another company called Orion has also been selling hybrid buses since 2005.

The best thing about these buses is that they are diesel-electric hybrids being used in intensive applications, and proving themselves quite admirably. Since buses are obviously have driving patterns heavily skewed towards stop-and-go, the hybrid powertrains are working wonders - upto 60% better fuel-economy from some articles I've read.

Also I love diesels, and really wish I could get a diesel vehicle here in CA, but it seems from many comments on DT that people seem to think that diesel and hybrid are mutually exclusive, which is definitely not true.

Diesels do have better low-end torque than gasoline engines, which is why the electric motor assist maybe viewed as benefiting a gas ICE more. However electric motors provide torque from the get go (>0 rpm), which no ICE can match. Hence i hybrid system would benefit any regular engine (diesel, gas, LPG, etc.)

RE: There are actually quite common now

By otispunkmeyer on 3/21/2007 5:47:00 AM , Rating: 2

yeah

i wondering, 80kW motor for a big bus is a little weak. i mean its only 107bhp, which for a family car isnt too bad, but for a bus!

but motors can be engineered to produce near maximal torque right from the kick off

power (kW) = Torque (Nm) x rev (radians per sec)

so even at 1000rpm (104.71 radians per sec) torque is like 760Nm which is a lot and would definately ease the strain on the engine during acceleration where most engines use the most fuel, especially when the bus is fully laden (weight kills acceleration)

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RE: There are actually quite common now

By Calin on 3/21/2007 12:22:20 PM , Rating: 2

An european turbo diesel engine (the 1.5 l of Renault, with the most expensive turbine) have near the same torque from 1800rpm to 5000rpm, and max power at 4500rpm - a whooping 87bhp. This means the power at 1500rpm is some 30bhp, and at some 1000rpm (idle) maybe 15bhp.
Even a small electric motor will be felt. Also, starting (to some 5km/h) purely electric will help with the wear and tear of the clutch and gearbox, or the power loss in the coupling of an automatic gearbox

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RE: There are actually quite common now

By Zoomer on 3/22/2007 7:29:52 AM , Rating: 2

Now can you guys see why you don't need cars that put out 400bhp and runs like a mile per gallon?

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A start

By Lazarus Dark on 3/20/2007 10:09:29 PM , Rating: 2

It's a start I guess. I've thought for a while that public transportation, fleets and cargo transport should be the first target for hybrid and alternative fuel tech. The fact is I am not ready to give up my muscle cars, but if the government wants to get my kids to school in a hybrid or my fedex packages could be delivered in hydrogen or electric vehicles, then I say great. Governments and corporations should lead the way in this as they have more money than me and more vehicles and probably travel more miles- this article says the buses travel a million miles! Thats a lot more than my paltry 30 thousand miles a year. And if they could be made cheap enough and stylish (sorry, but style is important) then maybe in five years I wouldn't mind using an all electric for my daily driver, as long as I can keep my v8 american muscle for the weekend.