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MPAA claims that TorrentSpy was withholding information stored on site's servers.

The lawsuit between media companies and TorrentSpy heats up as the MPAA accuses the torrent site of concealing evidence.  For the first time, the courts have found that electronic trail left in a computer server's RAM, or random access memory, must be turned over as evidence during litigation, CNET reported in a blog. 

The decision was issued by Jacqueline Chooljiian, a federal judge in the Central District of California in Los Angeles.  The decision was made during the legal battle between movie studios and TorrentSpy over copyright infringement.  Chooljiian ordered the bittorrent site to start logging user activity and IP addresses.  TorrentSpy also has to turn over the data to the Motion Picture Associate of America (MPAA). 

The judge stayed the order on Friday to allow TorrentSpy time to prepare an appeal, which must be filed by Tuesday.  The judge also allowed the website to mask the IP addresses of users for now. 

"We have spent the last year challenging their relentless campaign against the 1st Amendment and personal privacy laws Worldwide. We have succeeded in delaying the court order to turn on logs while we appeal it. TorrentSpy will not create logs of what you do on the site without your consent."

Torrentspy claims that they will not release any user information and have never tracked user IP addresses, searches users make, or how they use the site.

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They want the data in the RAM?
By PrinceGaz on 6/13/2007 6:11:12 AM , Rating: 5
I don't see how a copy of the data in the RAM can really be provided as it is continually changing, unless an image is saved to disk very frequently. As servers tend to have a lot of memory, the disks will need to be constantly writing data and will be filled in next to no time. The whole idea of a copy of the data in the RAM is ridiculous.

If I were running TorrentSpy, I'd be tempted to turn up in court with the RAM chips from the server and hand them over to the MPAA saying that they can have them for a couple of weeks to extract all the data they want from them :)




RE: They want the data in the RAM?
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 6/13/2007 6:31:03 AM , Rating: 5
Totally a legal loophole, in my opinion. Expecting data from a digital buffer to be preserved as a log file is ludicrous, though I suspect if this case goes through it will have deeper consequences for future legal battles.

My roommate and I created an interesting analogy. Suppose you are a bus driver, and a man who has just robbed a bank gets on your bus. You give the police your testimony but you have no video camera on your bus to confirm the man got on your bus after the robbery. The bank then accuses you of witholding evidence -- a definitive imprint of the robber's rear end from his seat could be used as positive identification.

What the MPAA is effectively asking for here is the backside deformations of all the torrentspy users. Brilliant! It's a good thing they still need a judge to sign off on this kind of thing.

If, by some feat of technology I'm not aware of, Torrentspy manages to eliminate RAM from their servers, then what? Will the MPAA claim the server L2 cache is storing said IP addresses?


RE: They want the data in the RAM?
By masher2 (blog) on 6/13/2007 2:18:25 PM , Rating: 2
> "Suppose you are a bus driver, and a man who has just robbed a bank gets on your bus"

The judge in this case isn't ordering them to turn over logs which don't exist-- he's ordered them to turn on logging, then turn over the logs when they do exist.

Give that, let me posit a more accurate analogy. You drive a bus, and 20 times in the past month, a bank robber has gotten on and used it to make his getaway. With that kind of record, a judge orders you to place a camera on your bus, so future robbers can be caught.

That sounds a good bit more reasonable, doesn't it?


By Christopher1 on 6/13/2007 11:49:48 PM , Rating: 2
That would be reasonable, if the analogy was anywhere near correct. In this case, the judge is ordering someone who stands on a corner where the bank robber passes everytime he robs the same bank, to stand there with a camera in order to photograph him.

That's the true analogy here, and that is why I don't like this. They are basically telling everyone "You have to log!" when a judge CANNOT order someone to log the activities of someone else, not an ISP, not anyone.

He CAN order that there can be a tap placed on an ISP or someone else..... but he cannot order the ISP or other person to do that themselves, it has to be done on court order by the police or some other LEO.


By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 6/14/2007 10:08:56 AM , Rating: 2
You're right - I'm not against the judges decision at all. I'm against the MPAA's accusation that the company knowingly withheld evidence -- which we both know is just a digital buffer on the system with no expectation of logging there.


RE: They want the data in the RAM?
By bighairycamel on 6/13/2007 7:11:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If I were running TorrentSpy, I'd be tempted to turn up in court with the RAM chips from the server and hand them over to the MPAA saying that they can have them for a couple of weeks to extract all the data they want from them


Or better yet, hand over the raw data from the ram. Here you go MPAA, good luck decyphering all those ones and zeros.


RE: They want the data in the RAM?
By cochy on 6/13/2007 7:52:23 AM , Rating: 2
I just finished a computer forensics class. Data in volatile memory is very important in a digital investigation. However, methods used in extracting and imaging this data is even more important. Forensics toolkits such as FTK and Encase are quite good at deciphering ones and zeros.


RE: They want the data in the RAM?
By deeznuts on 6/13/2007 1:26:33 PM , Rating: 2
That is not the point though, I believe. There is a legal loophole here. Torrentspy is arguing that the ip addresses and search queries are not discoverable because they don't log it, i.e. there is nothign to turn over, since it never really exists in their system.

MPAA argued, and the court agreed, that because this information has to pass through RAM, even if it isn't stored there, it is "discoverable" i.e. an item that can be requested in the discovery phase of a trial, and so logs must be turned on, and thsoe logs must be turned over.

So the gist of it is, since it is temporarily available in RAM, it is discoverable, so logs must be turned on. They are not saying that the information is on the RAM sticks nor that the RAM sticks must be turned over. Look here for a more complete discussion:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070610-bitt...


By InternetGeek on 6/13/2007 7:14:37 PM , Rating: 2
I remember there was a case very similar to this one but it was in regard of email servers. If I remember correctly, the judge decided that because emails were stored in ram for processing, the owners of the servers were allowed to save copies of those emails without having to inform the users; and thus actually allowing the owners to read all emails without having to fear any privacy issues. It strikes me that RIAA/MPAA argued using this decision to demand TorrentSpy to turn on logging on their servers.

It is odd TorrentSpy wasn't using the logging option given that the majority of web servers have it on to do their data mining (usage statistics, etc); though this applies to servers running commercial applications. TorrentSpy, up to what I know, is not making any money out of running searches beyond paying bandwidth and server maintenance. If someone is getting paid to do support/maintenance for a living it would be an entirely different matter then.

RIAA/MPAA is demanding TorrentSpy turn into their watchdog. If I was TorrentSpy I would do it but change the way I provide the service by informing all users that their searches will be logged and turned over tot he RIAA/MPAA. I would add a notice at every single search and would ask all users to register. Anyone smart would know what to look for through TorrentSpy during that time, and then they could just turn logging off again and carry on normally. ;)

Privacy is Privacy and it can be used both ways :D


Well stop using Torrentspy(if you hadn't already)
By sscilli on 6/13/2007 2:28:38 AM , Rating: 5
I'll admit, I do some torrenting, and in no way to I try to justify it as a legal activity. But forcing a site, which is basically a torrent search engine and hosts no torrents itself(at least to my knowledge, but it's been a long time since I've been there) to log IP addresses of everyone who visits their site is ludicrous. That be like the government asking Google to log IP's of people who use certain key phrases in their searches, and than turn that information over whenever asked. Sure the MPAA has a right to protect their material, but who do they think is gonna benefit from these types of tactics? Like it or not the people who are downloading these file are the very reason the MPAA is able to make so much money in the first place. The model is changing, and the MPAA(and especially the RIAA) need to adapt or their going to drive people toward other outlets.




RE: Well stop using Torrentspy(if you hadn't already)
By ZimZum on 6/13/07, Rating: -1
RE: Well stop using Torrentspy(if you hadn't already)
By nayy on 6/13/07, Rating: -1
RE: Well stop using Torrentspy(if you hadn't already)
By Lonyo on 6/13/2007 12:08:11 PM , Rating: 1
You don't talk about what? :P


By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 6/14/2007 10:10:29 AM , Rating: 3
And thus marks the first time in history comment moderation was used to uphold the laws of Usenet. lol


By Targon on 6/13/2007 7:45:21 AM , Rating: 5
What bothers me about this is that the MPAA and RIAA are trying to gather information without any clear evidence of wrongdoing. The police have a clear need to prove there is a reasonable reason to suspect criminal activity before they can do a search, but the MPAA and RIAA seem to feel they are entitled to do a search whenever they want, on whoever they want.

The RIAA set up Sound Exchange to extort money from everyone, even those who play music from people who don't have a contract with RIAA members. The MPAA at least tends to represent the studios they represent, and doesn't seem to go after those who are more interested in watching stuff from other countries which are not available elsewhere.


By HaZaRd2K6 on 6/13/2007 11:12:58 AM , Rating: 5
I agree with you on that, but to a point. The allusion between Google/TorrentSpy and a bar/restaurant doesn't really hold water. TorrentSpy doesn't actually host torrents, it only searches for them, same as Google doesn't actually host any content, it only collates it. That would be like requiring the Yellow Pages to ask for ID before someone asked where the closest bar was--it's ridiculous. So before you say "the vast majority of TorrentSpy downloads are illegal", you have to realise that, technically, there are no downloads that originate from TorrentSpy.


By Akazar on 6/13/2007 12:23:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So while technically, no one downloads from Torrentspy, the site is still facilitating criminal acts.


That's like holding gun manufacturers liable for any crimes committed by those who use guns to committ crimes. Guns are used to facilitate crimes. So are computers, internet, cars, and a list of many other things.

And torrents don't just host illegal software. They host patches, free downloads, shareware, free music from new bands. Free books from aspiring authors.

Just because I go to torrent spy and download a torrent file for a game. Doesn't mean I downloaded the game. I can download a million torrent files and not use any of them in a torrent program to download anything. That's why I think this lawsuit is ridiculous.

They can't prove anything. They are just trying to make to bankrupt the site by forcing them to spend time and money in the courts. That's not what our legal system was created for and it's a realy shame that rich companies can use the legal system in this manner.