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Print 113 comment(s) - last by AlphaVirus.. on May 7 at 2:58 PM

The latest campaigns against the Grand Theft Auto come as little surprise to anyone, but still serve up interesting societal questions

Perhaps the biggest video game release of the year, Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto IV is an iconic example of the power of the video game industry.  EA Games is desperate to acquire Take Two, almost entirely out of a desire to get its hands on the lucrative franchise.  Sony is hoping the system will help re-energize Playstation 3 sales.  And movie executives are fearful that the game will ruin their summer blockbusters by stealing away their viewers' time.

The power of GTA IV, though, as always is not merely in sales, but in shock.  On top of its extreme violence, usage of profanity, drugs and alcohol the new game pushes the envelope featuring masturbation, fellatio and intercourse -- though stopping short of full nudity sex scenes.  In an era, seen by some as prudish, in which parents are more appalled by sex, a biological function, than severed heads it seemed inevitable that the game would draw some high profile criticism.  Now the critics have come out, both with some familiar and unfamiliar faces.

First up is a new foe -- Mothers Against Drunk Driving.  The group is incensed at the game for providing depictions of driving intoxicated.  It is lobbying the Entertainment Software Ratings Board to change the game's rating from "Mature" to "Adults Only."  Such a change seems unlikely, but if it happened, it would mean that the game would be unable to be carried at many major retail stores.

MADD released a statement saying, "Drunk driving is not a game, and it is not a joke.  Drunk driving is a choice, a violent crime and it is also 100 percent preventable."

The organization is also trying to convince publisher Take-Two Interactive and developer Rockstar Games to stop distribution of the popular game "out of respect for the millions of victims/survivors of drunk driving."

In GTA IV players can "drink" at bars and then afterwards have the option of hailing a taxi, walking off their intoxication, or throwing caution to the wind and driving drunk.  When driving drunk the view blurs and its harder to steer.  Players recover from intoxication after several minutes in-game.

Rockstar shot down MADD's requests in a public statement in which it said, "We have a great deal of respect for MADD's mission, but we believe the mature audience for 'Grand Theft Auto IV' is more than sophisticated enough to understand the game's content.  For the same reason that you can't judge an entire film or television program by a single scene, you can't judge 'Grand Theft Auto IV' by a small aspect of the game."

Meanwhile a familiar foe of the video game industry is rearing his ugly head.  Jack Thompson, scolded by the Florida Supreme Court for his record of junk lawsuits against video games is back at it.  He's calling on a Florida U.S. attorney to sue Take Two and retailers for offering the game.

He raves in his letter, "Indictments should be returned against Take Two corporately and its Chairman, Strauss Zelnick, along with other Take Two officers. Indictment should also be against Sony and Microsoft which are making this pornographic game available to minors, and openly so, on their PS3 and Xbox systems.  Further, indictments should be handed down against Wal-Mart, Best Buy, GameStop, and all other retailers distributing this game to minors at their retail stores, openly, to kids who are only seventeen."

Then in a comical moment he compares the game to the polio virus.  He continues, "Grand Theft Auto IV is the gravest assault upon children in this country since polio. We now have vaccines for that virus ... The 'vaccine' that must be administered by the United States government to deal with this virtual virus of violence and sexual depravity is criminal prosecutions of those who have conspired to do this.  If you doubt me, look at the aforementioned streaming audio/video. It will make you sick."

As "evidence" Thompson offers up a link to a graphic video from IGN entitled "Ladies of Liberty City," which is viewable online, and definitely not a good idea for those of you reading at work.  While the only likely ramification of Thompson's tirade is the furthering of his public reputation of somewhat of a joke, it does continue to illustrate the controversy over whether video games merit the same depictive rights as other forms of graphical media.

However, controversy certainly isn't stopping customers. GTA IV is expected to set both sales and profit records, as analysts predict it to sell around 9 million copies, and make $400M USD at launch.


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Irony
By MozeeToby on 5/1/2008 12:24:17 PM , Rating: 5
What's ironic is that the game specifically says "Driving in this condition is a bad idea, better call a cab". The scene in question is designed to teach you how to use the cabs in the game. If you drive anyway the police will arrest you, even open fire on your car if hurt someone and refuse to stop. The game is actually very clearly anti-drunk driving.




RE: Irony
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/1/2008 12:29:11 PM , Rating: 3
Hmmm, maybe I should have done that :) I took Michelle to a bar on our second date and got plastered. She asked me to take her home, so I hopped back in my SUV and drove her home without getting into an accident or getting pulled by the cops. I guess that saved me fare for the taxi :-)

Didn't bother her though... and I scored with her the next night, so all is well in Niko's eyes (DualShock3 FTW) :)


RE: Irony
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/1/2008 1:14:51 PM , Rating: 5
Haha I'm so not interesting in the random dating minigame. I took her bowling once and figured this was the dumbest shit I've ever seen in a video game (I haven't played the Sims much) -- there's no story value in doing that right?


RE: Irony
By BladeVenom on 5/1/2008 1:39:05 PM , Rating: 5
If you hated that, you'd best steer clear of Japanese PC games.


RE: Irony
By afkrotch on 5/2/2008 12:53:34 PM , Rating: 2
Ya, but in those type of games, you have sex with them. Fully mosaic'd out and all.


RE: Irony
By nugundam93 on 5/5/2008 1:20:23 AM , Rating: 2
the ones most fun are those with full animation, like in sexy beach. some just have stills with sound (background music, voices). :D

i sure did waste some time playing them too way back. hahaha.


RE: Irony
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 2:26:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
there's no story value in doing that right?

I questioned this, I do not know but it does not hurt to have a female to tag along. I'm hoping towards the end of the game, she will turn into a Bonny and Clyde deal. :)


RE: Irony
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 2:24:23 PM , Rating: 5
I did the same thing "Hey a martini glass on the map, must be a bar" so I took her there. After the date was over, he is stumbling around but I was not about to leave my car so I hopped in and drove off. The car started to drift and swerve and the visuals began to blur. This was fun and all but it actually made me slow down to prevent crashing my car.

I would have scored the next date but I accidently pressed the L1 button and fired my pistol off while driving her home. She starts to scream and hops out the car...lets just say she does not like the violent lifestyle.

I still am trying to get her to go on another date with me. After I spent all that money on nice clothes, shoes, etc and finding the nicest neighborhood to steal a decent car.


RE: Irony
By afkrotch on 5/2/2008 1:09:48 PM , Rating: 2
lol.

I want to play this game so bad, but our local store (AAFES) is sold out. It'll probably be another month or two before I see it on the shelves again.

Have no fear, for play-asia is here. I want to get Minna no Golf 5, as the US version (Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds has terrible voices), and Fate/Tiger Colosseum along with GTA IV. Yes yes, I love my PS3. That's not to say I hate my Xbox 360. I blew $240 on a single game and two XBL point cards in Feb. That's more than GTA IV, Minna no Golf 5, and the F/T Colosseum game. $40 USD more.

Another week and I'll be getting drunk and driving over ppl's moms...in-game of course.


RE: Irony
By AlphaVirus on 5/7/2008 2:58:34 PM , Rating: 2
Its almost been a week, have you been able to purchase GTA4?


RE: Irony
By killerroach on 5/1/2008 12:29:14 PM , Rating: 5
And that will deter MADD from rasing a stink... why? :)

Publicity is publicity for an advocacy group, especially if you haven't been drawing the headlines in recent years due to guns, gods, or Gore. So I take it their "G" word to score a quick headline, therefore, is "GTA"...


RE: Irony
By HOOfan 1 on 5/1/2008 12:29:31 PM , Rating: 5
Jack Thompson could probably find something "offensive" and "violent" to campaign against in a My Little Pony game.

You cannot reason with the unreasonable.


RE: Irony
By JasonMick (blog) on 5/1/2008 12:45:33 PM , Rating: 4
Of course, I mean clearly "My little pony" is a euphemism, and you can imagine what it means.

And you think that's bad how about
Disney's The Little Mermaid: Ariel's Underseas Adventure

"Adventure" under her "sea", huh? Not on my watch!

Darn video game manufacturers, what will they unholy next??? Oh the humanity!


RE: Irony
By kinnoch on 5/1/2008 4:51:57 PM , Rating: 5
"Everythings better, down where its wetter, take it from me."

Sabastian said it himself in the song "Under the sea"


RE: Irony
By mles1551 on 5/1/2008 1:04:52 PM , Rating: 3
I heard he tried to stop the release of Hello Kitty Island Adventures b/c of its Nazi overtones.

Anyone watch Boston Legal last night? Just think they tried to make this guy look like a Presidential candidate.


RE: Irony
By spluurfg on 5/1/2008 2:06:41 PM , Rating: 2
I just think the funniest thing is that the devs were already making fun of him and other such 'values' activists in the game, because they were expecting this:

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/games/2008/GTA...


RE: Irony
By Synastar on 5/1/2008 3:44:04 PM , Rating: 3
You have to wonder if JT's hoping in some twisted way that someone will murder him and make him a martyr so he can prove his point and go down in history.


RE: Irony
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 1:07:42 PM , Rating: 5
I agree. When I read they were upset about the drunk driving, I thought, "If anything the game goes to show what can happen if you try to actually drive drunk." It does anything but promote it. I would understand them getting upset if you could go out drinking and then get in the car and drive normal as that would show what they're inferring. But it doesn't.

The fact of the matter is the game is rated M. It's for people 17+. It clearly states on the box all the things that are in the game. Language, violence, drug use, sex. They don't hide any of it. If you don't want your kid playing it, then don't buy it. If they buy it and you catch them playing it, take it away. For the rest of us that enjoy the game, leave us alone.

I was quite surprised when I picked up a hooker, chose the $70 option, and the chick climbed in Niko's lap and started f*cking him.


RE: Irony
By Sulphademus on 5/1/2008 1:31:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Further, indictments should be handed down against Wal-Mart, Best Buy, GameStop, and all other retailers distributing this game to minors at their retail stores, openly, to kids who are only seventeen."


People like to act like teenagers have their heads buried in the sand. They have their heads in the sand if they think highschool is Little House on the Prarie.
I mean, come on, how many of us were devirginized prior to age 18?


RE: Irony
By FITCamaro on 5/1/08, Rating: 0
RE: Irony
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 1:45:09 PM , Rating: 5
And I certainly don't think its a good thing that a good bit of 16 year olds aren't virgins. Hell we have 12 year olds having sex now. This is hardly a progression of society.


RE: Irony
By Sulphademus on 5/1/2008 1:50:53 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not saying its good or bad; I'm just saying that it is and these people, Mr. Thompson, like to think that it isn't.

I would also say that teenage promiscuity is unrelated to TV or Movies or Video Games.


RE: Irony
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 2:05:28 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I would also say that teenage promiscuity is unrelated to TV or Movies or Video Games.


I would say its highly related. Kids see shows and movies where sleeping around is shown to be acceptable, even cool. Plus they see sluts like Paris Hilton all over the media glamorizing it and acting like its no big deal and cool. Finally, hip hop and rap music encourages it as well in their lyrics(not all but a lot). All these things are the "cool" and "in" things so kids get the idea that this is how they should behave to be accepted. Yes good parenting is a stop gap against this but unfortunately, there's very few good parents anymore.


RE: Irony
By Ryanman on 5/1/2008 3:22:37 PM , Rating: 5
actually, as a teenager, let me say that I want to have sex because I've heard rave reviews from everyone else. Not becasue it's on CSI : D


RE: Irony
By tdawg on 5/1/2008 4:26:03 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly! Kids derive their desire to have sex from other kids that have done it. While media may play a small part, it's peer pressure and high school perceptions that get kids to have sex before they're necessarily ready.


RE: Irony
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 2:19:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would also say that teenage promiscuity is unrelated to TV or Movies or Video Games.

Thats what Jack is not understanding.

Sex has been around..hmmm..if scientest are correct, millions of years. Caveman anyone? Dinosex anyone? So all of this was way before tv and movies. Tv and movies just started making people think sex was a bigger problem than it should be.


RE: Irony
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 2:30:56 PM , Rating: 1
Humans are not cavemen or animals anymore. We have evolved. We have self control. We don't act entirely off instinct as animals do.

Teenagers mainly do what is considered cool and what will make them popular. Having sex is one of those things these days thanks to mainstream media. Back in the days when having sex as a teen was heavily frowned upon, it didn't happen as much. Now its pretty much considered "cool" for someone to sleep around. I've heard girls joke about "I'm such a slut". That's sad.

I'm not saying all sex as a teen is wrong. I'm just saying promiscuous sex is running rampant these days, both in teens and adults, and its a problem. All its doing is creating a mountain of welfare cases for the rest of us to pay for since people are stupid and don't use proper protection. And not having access to the protection isn't an excuse. If you need it and don't have it, you shouldn't do it anyway because you want to. You just shouldn't have sex.


RE: Irony
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 2:46:31 PM , Rating: 2
I believe this is the cycle.

DNA has I-want-sex-genetics
the more and more kids you have the stronger this gene gets
news portrays sex as bad so adults think its bad for kids
kids watch the latest MTV show and little Katy thinks sex is cool between her and her young friends
those same kids go to school and discuss with their real life friends and thus
public sex among teens is accepted.

Sex is something we have been doing forever, groups like MADD and fools like Jack should stop making it seem as if GTA is a ploy to destroy little kids lives.


RE: Irony
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 3:36:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
groups like MADD and fools like Jack should stop making it seem as if GTA is a ploy to destroy little kids lives.


Agree 100% there.


RE: Irony
By Sulphademus on 5/1/2008 5:15:03 PM , Rating: 4
Well, I believe we have evolved technologically and societ..icaly? But genetically? Not so much.

Our bodies are still made to start reproducing at 13ish. And it wasn't all that long ago that that was common. Back in dino-days early and frequent reproduction was probably very important to the survival of the species.

I don't think the concept of 'maturing too quickly' even came about until recently. It requires a cushion society for that to occur. No one there to hand you free bread or babysit your kid? Too bad. And over the centuries the evolution of society has added more and more cushion.

The biggest thing though is that now, children are a liability. Children were labor in the middle ages. That doesn't work nearly as well in an office as it does on a farm.

Advancements in contraception (please google the methods they used to try!) are pushing down the unplanned pregnancy rate. The percentage of teenage mothers in the USA has dropped dramatically since the 1950s when you just couldn't talk about such things.

http://www.amsa.org/pdf/teen_pregnancy.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr52/nvsr52_10...

Of course this could mean anything about the rate of sex itself. I'm sure though that alot of it has to do with the increased availability of effective contraception.

Society has changed alot. Science is unfathomably different. Our DNA is fairly the same.


RE: Irony
By jeff834 on 5/1/2008 11:26:02 PM , Rating: 2
Having sex as a teen was frowned upon and didn't happen as much when exactly? In the 80s? Nope. 70s? Nuh uh. 60s? LOL yeah right. When was Romeo and Juliet? Late 16th century? Must have been before that. Is it much more visible now than it was? No doubt. I mean back in the 50s when 16 year old Susie got pregnant she was sent away somewhere and never talked about. In the 70s and 80s you heard about pregnant girls but they were sluts you didn't really know. Nowadays, seeing a pregnant girl or two in a highschool class isn't uncommon, I knew a couple myself, but I think it's more our perceptions of things that have changed than the actual sexual activity that occurs.

I lost my virginity at 16 and many of my friends around the same time, but we all used protection and so do most middle class suburban teenagers in similar situations. Teenage pregnancy runs rampant where people are poorly educated. Learning about sex ed in school isn't good enough parents need to make sure their kids know the score and hang out with the right people.


RE: Irony
By robinthakur on 5/2/2008 7:35:09 AM , Rating: 2
Either that or if you're gay you really don't have to worry about getting anyone pregnant. I'm not saying its an answer for everyone but hey... :)


RE: Irony
By snownpaint on 5/2/2008 10:39:53 AM , Rating: 2
Haha.. We are animals.. A little more civilized, but still hunters and foragers. Read the news, not CNN or Fox, the human race for the most part are still barbarians. As for a reduction in sex life, I think the 21st century has way less sex then past. In comparison to the 60's -70's.. You want to talk about sex. This was off the charts after the pill came out. STDs caused a scare, but it is so much fun, I doubt it will ever be to the level the conservatives would like to see it. Trying to hide it or curb its presence in the media, is like not talking about or noticing your nose. I would say holding it back only breaks the flood gates.


RE: Irony
By Coca Cola on 5/1/2008 2:46:57 PM , Rating: 1
to those that are typing out his name, just refer to him as "that crazy bitch", don't capitalize

his name, don't give him a title (Mr.), he's not important...lol..and especially don't feed him

violent video games after midnight :) my opinion, but oh well


RE: Irony
By Hiawa23 on 5/1/2008 1:49:28 PM , Rating: 3
The organization is also trying to convince publisher Take-Two Interactive and developer Rockstar Games to stop distribution of the popular game "out of respect for the millions of victims/survivors of drunk driving."

what next, no war games out of respect for our fallen troops? The game is for 17 & older, & just like alchohol, if a yougin wants the game I am sure he/she can find someone to get it for him. Seems these days, people are not accountable for their actions, & always want to blame everything & everyone. It's unfortunate for those who have lost love ones due to DD, it's also unfortunate for those who lost love ones due to gun violence, I don't see any bans on that, & who are they going to blame next? I am all for kids not getting this game, but I have no issues with parent buying this game for their kids if they deem they are mature enough to handle it. I am 34 have a 10year old & my mother never had issues with me playing violent games or listening to ruff music. she taught me right from wrong. Perhaps parents needs to look in the mirror instead of everywhere else.


RE: Irony
By arazok on 5/1/2008 1:54:11 PM , Rating: 5
I like:

quote:
Drunk driving is not a game...


Isn't driving drunk, in a game, clearly a game?


RE: Irony
By bodar on 5/1/2008 9:50:48 PM , Rating: 2
I think that technically makes it a mini-game. Hell, let's throw it in the next Mario Party.


RE: Irony
By jtemplin on 5/1/2008 5:02:26 PM , Rating: 2
Good point. And in a game where you can shoot and kill police officers, is allowing drunk driving even a big deal? The point of GTA 4 is to simulate a real city and all the choices, good or bad, that can be made in it.
Maybe the trade group representing the dairy industry should become "incensed" by a previous GTA allowing you to sell drugs out of an ice cream truck. These people are ridiculous.


RE: Irony
By walk2k on 5/1/2008 5:07:17 PM , Rating: 2
Please stop giving this guy attention!! He is NOT worth it.


RE: Irony
By HexiumVII on 5/2/2008 7:38:15 AM , Rating: 2
You know what, i wasn't that into the GTA franchise, only played original III for a little bit but got pretty bored. But now i'm actually interested in 4 because you can actually drive drunk, that sounds really fun and shows how much thought went into making this game. Just unfathomable. Pretty soon you really don't need to go outside.


Consistent aren't we
By PKmjolnir on 5/1/2008 12:43:06 PM , Rating: 5
They rave and want to have the game banned because you can practice drunk driving in it. Meanwhile completly ignoring the shooting-innocent-crowds-with-automatic-weapons part.

Next up: Hardcore pornography needs to be banned because it shows women in indecent underwear!




RE: Consistent aren't we
By sh3rules on 5/1/2008 1:11:57 PM , Rating: 3
Agreed. That behavior really defines our religious conservatives: gun violence is ok, but anything suggesting sex is bad.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By SavagePotato on 5/1/2008 1:28:55 PM , Rating: 5
I'm starting a new organization.

GACC.

Gamers against Crazy Christians.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By darkpaw on 5/1/2008 1:44:01 PM , Rating: 2
Sign me up.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 2:48:24 PM , Rating: 2
/Signed


RE: Consistent aren't we
By hubajube on 5/1/2008 3:41:35 PM , Rating: 2
Oh hell yes!

/Signed


RE: Consistent aren't we
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 1:33:39 PM , Rating: 5
Well violence is against religion too. People are just a lot more prudish about sex because many people want to believe it doesn't happen. While I am not for the promiscuity that exists today since I think sex should be between two people who care about each other (not necessarily married though), I am also not for the attitude that people have that it shouldn't be present.

I don't think we should glorify promiscuous behavior as some TV shows and music do, but we also shouldn't make it taboo. Doing so only makes the young curious and wanting to break the rules, same as with alcohol. If you don't put it up on a pedestal, kids will be a lot less likely to do it (in my mind). Sex education should be taught with the mind that it does happen but just encourage kids that if they are going to have sex, to do it with someone they care about, not just anyone. It should not be taught with the mindset that sex is evil outside of marriage.

And really it shouldn't need to be taught at all. Parents should be taking care of it. Sadly though, they aren't. I mean I went to Catholic school and even there they didn't teach that it was wrong outside of marriage. They didn't talk about that at all. They merely educated us about the body and the possible risks such as different STDs and pregnancy. They left the when and whether or not to have sex to be taught by the parents.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By SavagePotato on 5/1/2008 1:42:37 PM , Rating: 3
Religion is causing more real deaths on a daily basis all around the world than any Video game ever could.

That is if you believe that things like religion, video games, movies, etc are worthy of being blamed for the choices of human beings to commit acts of violence.

If GTA4 or any video game can be blamed for the actions of someone committing a crime, then religion instantly becomes the greatest plague to mankind ever seen at the same time.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 1:47:03 PM , Rating: 3
The deaths today being caused in the name of religion are not what those religions actually teach. They are twisted interpretations of a religion by psychopaths who prey on the uneducated and ignorant.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 2:58:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They are twisted interpretations of a religion by psychopaths who prey on the uneducated and ignorant.

I think you missed the concept of what religion is then, its all based on perception. Faith is nothing more than a thought, which comes from a single persons mind, which is based on a perception.

Why do you think there are some people that preach "God is a forgiving God" and others that say "God is a merciful God". Some people find different characteristics in a single thing, everyone has different thoughts so interpretations will become skewed.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 3:44:35 PM , Rating: 2
I'll give you that. I won't deny that horrible things have been done in the name of religion.

I was just trying to say that gun violence is not "ok" with religious advocates. But yes they do seem to ignore it more than sex when it comes to video games.

I will say that I do think video games, movies, etc can be the stimulus for why people commit violent acts. But its only when they're not taught by their parents that the acts in these forms of media are wrong. If you let a young child grow up watching violent movies without putting them in context and perspective, the kid is never going to learn that this is not how they should behave.

But I do not think banning violent games and movies is the answer. Education is. Parenting is. If you're a bad parent and you let your kid watch violent movies and play violent games, and they grow up violent, thats your fault, not the movies or the video games. You didn't do your job so they didn't learn the difference.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By AlphaVirus on 5/2/2008 11:51:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I was just trying to say that gun violence is not "ok" with religious advocates. But yes they do seem to ignore it more than sex when it comes to video games.

Ok, misread your previous post then. Yeah I get what you are saying.

The media puts gaming on its own pedistal that, for some reason, should stay holy. Movies on the other hand can have any sort of violence and massacre and its ok. TV shows can have all the cussing, soft porn, and violence and it seems to be marked as ok.

They try to protect tv shows with the excuse of "Kids should be sleep or at school at these times." but fail to realize "Parents should put parental control on electronic devices if they dont want them playing naughty games or movies."


RE: Consistent aren't we
By mmatis on 5/1/2008 4:47:39 PM , Rating: 3
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Body Count: 58,627,000
1922-1991 (69 years)

People's Republic of China
Body Count: 73,237,000
1949-Present (57+ years and counting)

North Korea Flag
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Body Count: 3,163,000
1948-Present (58+ years and counting)

Cambodia Flag
Cambodia
Body Count: 2,627,000
1975-1987 (12 years)

But then, I guess Communism is a religion too, isn't it?


RE: Consistent aren't we
By robinthakur on 5/2/2008 7:41:39 AM , Rating: 1
Religion is a virus like memetic mechanism for mass control, nothing more, nothing less, because only unproven faith in *something* is all that's required for it to occur. It takes advantage of something inherent only to humanity, which is 'Hope'

It simply says "believe in a dream, because accepting your reality at face value is too grim to contemplate."


RE: Consistent aren't we
By BiffRapper on 5/2/2008 12:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
So you'd rather believe in nothing than something?

If you are not, then what are you? For many people, hope allows them to drive on and push into the next day and continue with their otherwise rather depressing lives. It gives people something rather than nothing.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By SavagePotato on 5/3/2008 5:02:36 PM , Rating: 2
You don't need religion for that.

I think all religions are a ridiculous farce, but that doesn't mean I believe in nothing and presume to know the mysteries of the universe.

I don't know what happens to consciousness after death or presume to hazard a guess. However the ludicrous nature of pretty much all religions precludes anyone with any logic at all believing some silly fairy tale baloney that differs from religion to religion with each and every one believing they are the only true religion.

Let me tell you, god must be one hell of a prick to devise all these hoops to jump through and rules to get into his graces and still make it impossible for some of his "children" to ever succeed, because they are in the wrong area of the world to ever hear about the "true" religion. Or mentally handicapped and incapable of ever understanding it. etc.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By kiloguy on 5/4/2008 6:50:19 AM , Rating: 2
to AlphaVirus, quote, "Faith is nothing more than a thought"
robinthakur,quote,"unproven faith .." and "something inherent only to humanity".
SavagePotato,qoute,"presume to know the mysteries" and "I don't know" and "anyone with any logic at all.." and finally, "Let me tell you...".
.
OK. Every atheist i have ever met believes we are so smart, we can figure out the nature of God/religion/faith.
Question: Is there a chance that we can not SEE the things we can not see? Are there things UNSEEN?

Quote: "The universe is not only queerer than we imagined, but queerer that we can imagine".
.
Quote: "Now faith is ... the evidence of things not seen." (Heb.11:1 KJV)
.
one more quote: "Of all the creatures on earth only Man can experience shame, and the only one that should."
.
my 0.02.
.


RE: Consistent aren't we
By AlphaVirus on 5/7/2008 2:55:47 PM , Rating: 2
Did you just take quotes from the bible to stir a religious debate?

You dirty dog you!


RE: Consistent aren't we
By SavagePotato on 5/1/2008 3:01:19 PM , Rating: 2
That was the point.

If you hold a video game responsible for crimes committed by an individual then you have no choice but hold religion responsible for the endless plethora of crimes committed in it's name daily.


Forget MADD, Join DDAMM !!!
By Reclaimer77 on 5/1/2008 12:32:01 PM , Rating: 5
Drunk Dads Against Mad Mothers

DDAMM

Join Now !




RE: Forget MADD, Join DDAMM !!!
By Sulphademus on 5/1/2008 1:38:59 PM , Rating: 2
Why dont we all just join NO MA'AM?


RE: Forget MADD, Join DDAMM !!!
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/1/2008 2:00:38 PM , Rating: 2
Then watch a 24-hour marathon of "Psycho Dad"


RE: Forget MADD, Join DDAMM !!!
By arazok on 5/1/2008 2:19:44 PM , Rating: 2
Killed his wife 'cos she had a cold
Might as well she was gettin' old
Psycho Dad, Psycho Dad, Psycho Dad!


By DigitalFreak on 5/1/2008 2:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
There was a Slayer song called DAMM (Drivers Against Mad Mothers).


RE: Forget MADD, Join DDAMM !!!
By mmatis on 5/1/2008 4:48:49 PM , Rating: 2
I prefer:

Help Stop the MADD Cows!!!


RE: Forget MADD, Join DDAMM !!!
By Nik00117 on 5/1/2008 5:06:28 PM , Rating: 2
Someone should seriously make a site about this, it'd be a great life.


People...
By tdktank59 on 5/1/2008 12:53:50 PM , Rating: 3
Why cant they just deal with it.

If they don't want there kinds playing it don't let them buy it or don't buy it for them.

If you don't like it just look the other way because from the sounds of it, its a VERY popular game...

I have never owned a single GTA game but I have played a few.

So let me get this out... We can have games where we go around shooting terrorist (COD) but we cant have a game where a gangster goes around shooting people... Kinda seems like the same thing to me cause people are the gangsters terrorist...

Anyways people piss me off, i understand that we have the right to stand up and voice our opinions and what not but why do people have to be so idiotic while doing it... (if you dont like it dont buy it...)




RE: People...
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 1:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Kinda seems like the same thing to me cause people are the gangsters terrorist...


Huh? People are terrorists to gangsters? That's a pin so far off the donkeys ass you hit an elephant.


RE: People...
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 3:49:47 PM , Rating: 2
From OP
quote:
So let me get this out... We can have games where we go around shooting terrorist (COD) but we cant have a game where a gangster goes around shooting people... Kinda seems like the same thing to me cause people are the gangsters terrorist...

He is saying in COD you shoot terrorist, which are people, and in GTA you shoot people, why do they make such a fuss about GTA and not COD.


RE: People...
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 5:32:18 PM , Rating: 2
Terrorists are bad guys. It's ok to shoot them. People walking along the street and cops are not the bad guy. But in GTA you can shoot them.

I understood what he was saying. But how you can view terrorists and innocents/cops the same is beyond me. Yes I play the game and love it. But I realize there is a difference between the two.


RE: People...
By snownpaint on 5/2/2008 11:00:53 AM , Rating: 2
"Good is determined by what the bad do"

So it is OK to shoot someone invading your house and kicking you out of it; even if you live in Iraq and he is a US solider?

What if a cop is corrupt and is going to set you up for life, is it OK to shoot him?

What if the Terrorist is trying to blow up a house where they molest children? should I shoot him?

Is it OK to shoot the doctor that gave baby Hitler the vaccine for Polo.

What if the corrupt cop is going to shoot the terrorist that is going to blow up the sadistic house, where the doctor of Hitler lives, is it OK to shoot everyone?


RE: People...
By BiffRapper on 5/2/2008 12:31:21 PM , Rating: 2
No, you bring them all a bouquet of flowers, kiss them on the cheeks, burn some incense and whip out the tamborines and stare into the sun like everything is ok.


Little Jacob
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/1/2008 12:35:45 PM , Rating: 2
On a side note, can anyone understand what the **** Little Jacob is saying in the game?

When ever he says "Niko", it sounds like he's saying another... ummm... derogatory word.




RE: Little Jacob
By darkpaw on 5/1/2008 1:04:17 PM , Rating: 2
Without subtitles, I wouldn't have a clue what he's saying. Even with the subtitles, I need a stoner to English dictonary.


RE: Little Jacob
By FITCamaro on 5/1/2008 1:08:45 PM , Rating: 2
LMAO. Yeah I'm not exactly sure what he's saying all the time.


RE: Little Jacob
By Hiawa23 on 5/1/2008 2:45:05 PM , Rating: 2
On a side note, can anyone understand what the **** Little Jacob is saying in the game?

When ever he says "Niko", it sounds like he's saying another... ummm... derogatory word.


I love his missions, funny as hell. I turned on the subtitles so I could understand what he is saying, but funny as hell...


RE: Little Jacob
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 3:21:01 PM , Rating: 2
Luckily my wife is from the Carribean Islands so I am used to Little Jacob's dialect. I have no island background besides her so sometimes when he starts talking too fast I can't catch on to everything.

They certainly do have a different style of English speech.

"Wha'gwan?" - "What's up?"
"I-n-I den buss dem rudeboys" - "You and I have shot those bad guys."
(Rudeboy can also be used to describe yourself if you feel like you are a top dog.)
"Battyboy" - "Gay boy"
"Battyman" - "Gay man"

I can't remember every line he said but if you have an idea of what hes saying, makes it much easier to beat his missions.


The real problem
By Nihility on 5/1/2008 3:31:23 PM , Rating: 2
Stop blaming video games for you being a bad parent.
Take responsibility for your kids upbringing. Don't just sit them in front of the TV to keep them occupied so you can go off and do whatever.
Parenting is hard, sure, but if you enjoy the fact that you can plop the kid down in front of the computer and not have it nag you for 200 hours then you should also be willing to accept what that will do to it.
A computer game is not a babysitter.




RE: The real problem
By Noknok on 5/1/2008 4:09:01 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, you know what, I'm not worried about my OWN kids. I do parent them. I do monitor what they're doing.

I worry about the other kids whose parents suck. Whose kids are going to bully my kids and grow up to be rapists, abusers and drug users because that's how they spend their afternoons on the game console.

This kind of head-in-the-sand, entitlement philosophy of "I'm having my fun, to hell with society" is why things are going the direction they are.

Hopefully enough people will someday realize that while it may be a good time for you, it's polluting our society and maybe we should turn off the spigot.

Unfortunately, feeding our own selfish urges usually wins out at the sake of everything else.


RE: The real problem
By hubajube on 5/1/2008 4:55:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I worry about the other kids whose parents suck.
You are so right!!! Let's just dumb down everyone else to Johnny Dumb Sh!t's level! Who cares about accountability.


RE: The real problem
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2008 11:26:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yeah, you know what, I'm not worried about my OWN kids. I do parent them. I do monitor what they're doing.


Ok good, your doing your job.

quote:
I worry about the other kids whose parents suck. Whose kids are going to bully my kids and grow up to be rapists, abusers and drug users because that's how they spend their afternoons on the game console.


Now you lost me. You just said the parents suck. That, unlike you, they are not monitoring and nurturing their children. At that point, does it really matter what games they are playing ? Would they grow up any better if GTA-4 never existed ?

quote:
This kind of head-in-the-sand, entitlement philosophy of "I'm having my fun, to hell with society" is why things are going the direction they are.


Now thats just entirely unfair and wrong, and you know it. The implication here is that anyone having fun playing games like this is hurting society and saying " the hell with it ". As to why things are going so wrong, well, doesn't every previous generation say that ?

If you want to point fingers, I blame you. The generation x " baby boomer " generation. You leftovers from Woodstock and the hippie movement. You fought to take morality and religion out of the schools, where it can make the MOST positive impact on young impressionable minds. Does it really matter if there might or might not be a god ? Your missing the point. You have no personable accountability, and thats passed onto your children. Instead of putting things in a context for your children, you let the school district and the media do it for you.

quote:
Hopefully enough people will someday realize that while it may be a good time for you, it's polluting our society and maybe we should turn off the spigot.


Maybe this is why your child is being " bullied " ? Nice attitude. Its better to just try and put problems in the closet instead of standing up for your beliefs and putting things in context. Lets not deal with anything, lets just magically try and make it go away.


RE: The real problem
By walk2k on 5/1/2008 5:10:13 PM , Rating: 2
Not all games are for kids. This one is rated "M" in the US and that means 17+. Lots of adults enjoy video games these days, not just kids, get over it and don't buy it if you don't like it end of story.


Drink Driving
By oab on 5/1/2008 12:31:44 PM , Rating: 2
In GTA San Andreas, you drove a van while extremely high, that didn't cause the same controversy from MADD when it came out. They did the same camera-shaking blurring effects too.

The fact that they model drunk driving in a way that it's hard and dangerous to drive home should appease them right? It's like Jack Thompsons murder simulator, it's a drunk driving simulator showing that it's much harder and more dangerous than regular driving.

I'm upset Jack isn't filing the suit himself but trying to find someone else to do it for him. Like that has a chance of working </sarcasm>




RE: Drink Driving
By wempa on 5/1/2008 12:39:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In GTA San Andreas, you drove a van while extremely high, that didn't cause the same controversy from MADD when it came out. They did the same camera-shaking blurring effects too.


In what part was this ? I only remember "The Truth" getting high. I don't remember CJ ever doing it.


RE: Drink Driving
By MozeeToby on 5/1/2008 12:59:45 PM , Rating: 2
I think he's thinking of the mission where you actually drive drunk in San Andreas, not high. You hang out at somebody's moonshine still and get drunk from the fumes, probably where his confusion comes from.


RE: Drink Driving
By SavagePotato on 5/1/2008 12:53:06 PM , Rating: 2
Jackie isn't allowed to file anymore.

The Florida supreme court clipped his wings and now he has to file through another attorney if he wants to at all.

What I would stand in line to see though moreso than gta4 or any summer blockbuster movie would be the hearing where Jack gets disbarred finally. Now that would be entertainment.


A Solution
By Spivonious on 5/1/08, Rating: 0
RE: A Solution
By Bender 123 on 5/1/2008 1:14:52 PM , Rating: 4
Good solution, but your take on ratings seems a bit off...I have seen much worse in R movies (and late night cable) than anything in a GTA. Daytime soaps have as much sexual content as these games (Those crazy Spanish ones are even better...ooooops...worse).
Just remember Robocop was R rated and we all saw what happens when violence causes acid to fall you and get run over by a screaming bad guy.


RE: A Solution
By adiposity on 5/1/2008 1:17:46 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Personally, I'm amazed the game got away with an M rating, especially since ths article states it contains sexual acts. If it was a movie it would surely have been NC-17.


Uh, no. Many R-rated movies have sex acts. In fact, many PG-13 movies have sex acts (such as Titanic). The article states that it stops short of full nudity. There are R-rated films with full nudity. A sex act does not mean you see a penis entering a vagina or necessarily even see a bare ass (which Fox recently had on NYPD blue, on TV!!!!!).

Either you misunderstood the article or you don't have a very good idea how movies are rated.

-Dan


*chuckle*
By Richlet on 5/2/2008 2:56:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
we believe the mature audience for 'Grand Theft Auto IV' is more than sophisticated enough to understand the game's content


"mature audience"? well, maybe 10%, but the people I know who would stand in line for the game are hardly "mature" or "sophisticated". These are guys who think that peeing on a 14 year old in a sex video is "funny" not "kiddie porn". The same sort who street race with a copy of need for speed underground sitting in the front seat. (yes, I know, through work, a lot of young, low-rent idiots).




RE: *chuckle*
By AlmostExAMD on 5/2/2008 5:24:57 AM , Rating: 1
So u blame the game for their lack of maturity then?
Lets all go live in a padded box house and ban movies/games/alcohol/sex all together, Hell while we are at it might as well just slit our wrists and be done with any life at all,Ohh wait we can't knives were banned too cause they were deemed far to dangerous!
I'm afraid I don't like the way our world is headed, What the hell did 1 my ancestors fight and die in Gallipoli for, Freedom of choice?
The way our society is headed there won't be any freedoms left, Every year little laws the general public don't even notice get passed in parliament that nibble away on our freedom of choice!
Now as an adult I should be able to play this game with every good and bad aspect of the game without having some group censor it, Here in Australia GTA IV is censored, Looks like I'll be importing.
Now maybe the people u know are immature around that age but hence a need for AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT(R U LISTENING) to introduce an "R 18" rating for video games here in oz, Like we have for movies.
As an adult I am so sick of having to put up with this censored crap just to please some minority group, They expect us to go fight wars for them and then take away basic freedom of choice.
What next? Will I have to go down to my local council to fill out a permit to have sex with Miss's or what, Where does this bullshit stop,Orwellian World here we come!
Take responsibility for your own actions, U don't want to play the game or don't want your kids(who shouldn't be playing adult game anyway) THEN DON'T BUY IT, SIMPLE!!!

As for other comments, 14 year old sex video u talk about was done by school age kids, Only kiddie porn if YOU,me or any other adult views it, The cultprits who made the video were minors also,Probably was funny to them qat that age group, Of course it was absolutely digusting and wrong and they need to be punished severely for it but does that mean u want all sex/nudity in any media fromat baned as well?
Now Need for speed on front seat of car, Come on now take all the games away and I bet every young guy is still gonna be idiotic on the roads at some point, Goes with the age demographic, I can tell you now it's been going on LONG before there were even video games, Even some old 1950's films have seens with street racing, Wanna ban fast cars too?


RE: *chuckle*
By Richlet on 5/2/2008 9:55:39 AM , Rating: 2
uhh.. I don't blame the game at all, just the demographic most likely to stand in line like lemmings.

As for the video I was referring to, I was talking about R. Kelly. Last time I checked, he was 40. (34 at the time of the incident, his trial is set to begin in a week)


RE: *chuckle*
By wempa on 5/2/2008 12:39:04 PM , Rating: 2
I disagree with your assessment of the majority who will buy this game. The average age of a gamer is around 29 years old. By 29, if you can't distinguish real life from a video game, then you have BIGGER problems to worry about than a stupid game. Everybody I know of who bought this game is a mature adult who knows right from wrong. Even my younger cousins who were allowed to play some of the GTA games understand that it's only a game and not something to be done in real life. Sure, there's nothing to stop the immature people over 18 from buying it, but the same goes for R rated movies.


Riding Coat Tales
By snownpaint on 5/1/2008 12:53:08 PM , Rating: 2
These people should be happy games like this come out and carry such a large portion of media attention. Who would have heard of "Thomson" without GTA or some other big name games? MADD gets their name and message out, and nobody had to get hurt or killed in an accident. MADD got more coverage with this, then the wrecked cars towed in front of the high schools. Have something to say? attach your message to the mass media of something controversial..

GTA IV is Green: don't pollute with your car, stay home and play video games..




RE: Riding Coat Tales
By AlphaVirus on 5/1/2008 3:56:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
GTA IV is Green: don't pollute with your car, stay home and play video games..

Its carbon footprint is pretty large though, thousands of pizzas ordered causing older vehicles to deliver and smog the airs. Most gamers are guys so the wives go to the mall shopping with their friends causing more smog in the air.

And we cant forget that new HDTV you want to show off to your friends, so they have to all drive to your house.

So while you are not polluting with your car, its still left open for debate how green GTA4 is.


RE: Riding Coat Tales
By snownpaint on 5/2/2008 11:10:21 AM , Rating: 2
Hahaa..


GTA IV
By SlipDizzy on 5/1/2008 12:31:08 PM , Rating: 5
I don't know about you guys/gals, but this game is awesome. To pay respect to this blog and Mr. Thompson, I'm going to drive drunk to the strip club. Thank you GTA.




RE: GTA IV
By oab on 5/1/08, Rating: 0
nothing agaisnt madd
By Deens on 5/1/2008 9:38:48 PM , Rating: 1
Why would a company make a game about street crime if they don't let the characters to break the rules, its stupid. look at movies there are 100s of movies where they drive drunk, do drugs and other shit, but they don't protest them, and some of them have teen ratings. Its shouldn't be up to developers to tell kids that what they see is wrong it should be up to the parents. my parents let be watch what ever i wanted and i was told what was right and wrong i don't do drugs or drink and drive. everyones looking for attention now a days




RE: nothing agaisnt madd
By bodar on 5/1/2008 10:27:35 PM , Rating: 2
That's because to morons around the country, video games = for the children. Won't SOMEBODY think of them, already? I mean, it's not like they become adults eventually, right? Oh wait...


RE: nothing agaisnt madd
By snownpaint on 5/2/2008 11:42:20 AM , Rating: 2
Well it not like the average 14 year old has the funds to play any longer..

XBox360 $299
HDTV $1000
GTA4 $60

total $1359

without parents finical help, it is hard to get corrupted by video games.. I guess, they will have to go play on the streets of the city, with the hookers, drug pushers, and walk home drunks. maybe hangout with their punk friends.


Typo
By oab on 5/1/2008 12:37:15 PM , Rating: 2
One of the links has a mistake in it that causes it to redirect to no-where. Here is the link: http://www.dailytech.com/Take-Two%20Rejects%20EA's...$2%20Billion%20Bid

And it's in this sentence: "Jack Thompson, scolded by the Florida Supreme Court for his record of junk lawsuits against video games is back at it."




RE: Typo
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/1/2008 12:42:04 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks, it has been fixed.


Godwin's Law
By Yawgm0th on 5/1/2008 6:03:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Then in a comical moment he compares the game to the polio virus. He continues, "Grand Theft Auto IV is the gravest assault upon children in this country since polio. We now have vaccines for that virus ... The 'vaccine' that must be administered by the United States government to deal with this virtual virus of violence and sexual depravity is criminal prosecutions of those who have conspired to do this. If you doubt me, look at the aforementioned streaming audio/video. It will make you sick."


Can we call Godwin's law on Jack for this one and call it a day? Polio != Nazis, but the comparison is equally, if not more ridiculous. There's really no point in responding to him or even acknowledging him at this point.




RE: Godwin's Law
By cmdrdredd on 5/1/2008 7:12:15 PM , Rating: 2
Politicians, parent groups, and haters should just leave the gamers like myself alone. I play GTA because it's fun, not because I'm practicing for when I'm going on a crime spree in NYC.


Entertaining Quotes
By BMFPitt on 5/1/2008 3:09:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
It is lobbying the Entertainment Software Ratings Board to change the game's rating from "Mature" to "Adults Only." Such a change seems unlikely, but if it happened, it would mean that the game would be unable to be carried at many major retail stores.
I think if you did this, it would only prompt them to adjust the content to be worthy of an AO rating. And the impact on sales would probably be negligible. Strippers wearing tops? It just seems wrong.
quote:
MADD released a statement saying, "Drunk driving is not a game, and it is not a joke. Drunk driving is a choice, a violent crime and it is also 100 percent preventable."
Imagine that. Crimes in GTA?




Just don't sell it to kids
By sapiens74 on 5/1/2008 4:15:53 PM , Rating: 2
Just make sure someone 18 or over buys it and let us enjoy our legal right to indulge in adult gaming

If some crackhead parent wants to give it to his/her kids that is their right as well.




By Bruneauinfo on 5/1/2008 5:46:40 PM , Rating: 2
der... why didn't i think of this sooner. i've solved hollywood's problems with GTA stealing gamers from the theatres:

since GTA is super realistic now from what i've read. why not put a movie theater in the game where you can pay to watch streams of this summer's blockbusters during the game? take a break from sex, alcohol, and mayhem and watch Iron Man with your hoes.

sorry if someone on here already thought of this. i didn't read all the posts.




Real Drinking + Video games
By kinnoch on 5/1/2008 5:52:02 PM , Rating: 2
Video games and real life drinking could be used to show the effects of drunk driving.

1. Get decent at a racing game.
2. Get drunk in real life.
3. Play that racing game and see how you do.

I personally think this would work best with super monkey ball.

The first time I got drunk as a teen I went and played frogger. Man it was intense.




By masa77 on 5/1/2008 5:53:59 PM , Rating: 2
If we put a stop to everything considered 'unacceptable' by the standards of these and other organizations we'd all be a bunch of prudes living dull, boring, uneventful lives. Then again, I suppose it's their right to preech their gospel, just as it is 'our' right to choose to play this game. While you're at it MADD, why not sue Hollywood for violent movies, networks for violent TV, and polititians for doing far more damage than everything else combined.




DUI preventable
By Baked on 5/1/2008 10:22:54 PM , Rating: 2
[q]MADD released a statement saying, "Drunk driving is not a game, and it is not a joke. Drunk driving is a choice, a violent crime and it is also 100 percent preventable."[/q]

Right, let's write to the congress and have the start another prohibition. No beer, no DUI! These MADD people have way too much free time on their hands. You want to prevent your children from DUI, take some responsibilities and learn to be good parents, and stop blaming everything on other people.




Jack Thompson
By Evocati on 5/2/2008 10:17:16 AM , Rating: 2
Don't you just wish he'd stumble into a really big paper shredder or garbage compactor, or something ...?




By kiloguy on 5/2/2008 2:35:11 AM , Rating: 1
mmatis: The source of all this goes back to the serpent.
Haiwa: When I young, Rock&Roll was a cause, not a reflection.
Sulphademus: Right! Contraceptives affected everything, from ingrained behavior to promiscuity.
Noknok: An old TV commercial about drunk driving... *If he's sick let's help him, but first let's get him off the road.*
masa77: Good. Also,just to add more comedy, the Bible should be banned. It has lots of examples of (at least) R-rated stuff, and probably some X-rated.
Ok. The Internet is out there. Computer games are out there. Libido is out there (but now with protection for the bearer). So let's quit bashing, and see where the real problem source has always come from. AND where the real answer resides.
my 0.02
.




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