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LulzSec and Anonymous have joined forces to declare war on international governments and banks.  (Source: LulzSec)

U.S. law enforcement still seems no closer to catching LulzSec members.  (Source: AP Photo)

Note to the LA Times and media at large -- LulzSec and Anonymous aren't at war, despite LulzSec's attacks on certain 4Chan members.  (Source: Tony Pierce)
Group appears to be refocused on "socially minded" hacking

LulzSec ("Lulz Security") has made a name for itself with its many hacks [1][2][3] of Sony Corp. (TYO:6758)  But its most daring hacks have been a distributed denial of service takedown of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, a hack of U.S. Senate servers, and an attack on an affiliate of the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation

Despite these audacious attacks, the U.S. government appears to be no closer to finding the merry cyber bandits.  There have been no accurate reports of homes being raided; no arrests yet made.

I. Declaration of War

Looking to up the ante, LulzSec has announced its intention to team up with the hacker collective Anonymous to attack international government and financial institutions, who the group accuses are the hoarders of "corrupt booty".  The U.S. government and banking system are among the most prominent targets.  Labeling these parties "terrorists" (a term some are applying to the LulzSec members themselves), it writes [PasteBin]:

Salutations Lulz Lizards,

As we're aware, the government and whitehat security terrorists across the world continue to dominate and control our Internet ocean. Sitting pretty on cargo bays full of corrupt booty, they think it's acceptable to condition and enslave all vessels in sight. Our Lulz Lizard battle fleet is now declaring immediate and unremitting war on the freedom-snatching moderators of 2011.

Welcome to Operation Anti-Security (#AntiSec) - we encourage any vessel, large or small, to open fire on any government or agency that crosses their path. We fully endorse the flaunting of the word "AntiSec" on any government website defacement or physical graffiti art. We encourage you to spread the word of AntiSec far and wide, for it will be remembered. To increase efforts, we are now teaming up with the Anonymous collective and all affiliated battleships.

Whether you're sailing with us or against us, whether you hold past grudges or a burning desire to sink our lone ship, we invite you to join the rebellion. Together we can defend ourselves so that our privacy is not overrun by profiteering gluttons. Your hat can be white, gray or black, your skin and race are not important. If you're aware of the corruption, expose it now, in the name of Anti-Security.

Top priority is to steal and leak any classified government information, including email spools and documentation. Prime targets are banks and other high-ranking establishments. If they try to censor our progress, we will obliterate the censor with cannonfire anointed with lizard blood.

It's now or never. Come aboard, we're expecting you...

History begins today.

The campaign appears to be a departure of LulzSec's tradition of DDoS griefing and brings to mind Anonymous's hacks of Bank of America and HBGary.  Particularly interesting is the notion of hacking government sites to ferret out corruption.  

The online community tends to have mixed feelings on such efforts.  Many are mildly supportive, but a prevailing sentiment is "Who is watching the watchmen?"  

As Wikileaks has arguably demonstrated, it's easy for such efforts to devolve into financially-motivated publicity campaigns and for lives and reputations to be endangered by careless publication.

II. First Strike

In its first effort in the new campaign, LulzSec took down the website of Britain's Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) agency, an agency which performs similar duties to the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration and the U.S Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The group posted to Twitter:

Tango down - http://t.co/JhcjgO9 - in the name of #AntiSec

The SOCA page now appears to have come back to life and is fully reachable.

We'll update here as more attacks come.

III. Anonymous and LulzSec -- Friends Till the End

While we correctly reported that LulzSec's botnet was composed partially of 4Chan users of the '/b/' message board, some publications [1][2] became a bit overeager and erroneously jumped to the conclusion that Anonymous (who frequents 4Chan) were at war with LulzSec.

Both groups firmly dispelled such notions.

Anonymous's AnonOps Twitter account posted:

Attention #Media: about #Lulzsec and #Anonymous, we are not at war. We are bros of teh internetz. Also, /b/ != Anonymous.

"YourAnonNews", another Twitter affiliated with the group, added:

We are NOT at war with @LulzSec #MediaFags

And LulzSec wrote:

To confirm, we aren't going after Anonymous. 4chan isn't Anonymous to begin with, and /b/ is certainly not the whole of 4chan. True story.

/b/ is the peon of all the 4chan boards and 4chan is the mass amplification of crowdsourcing used by AnonOps to gain support. #MediaFacts

Saying we're attacking Anonymous because we taunted /b/ is like saying we're going to war with America because we stomped on a cheeseburger.

So that's settled -- LulzSec and Anonymous are friends -- even if some 4Chan users are upset at the fact that their computers were taken over.

IV. Anonymous Members' Handles Exposed?

One site LulzSecExposed is generating a lot of attention for claiming to carry chat logs taken from inside LulzSec by "Web Ninjas" for the purpose of "Bringing Lulz to hack victims."  

The chat logs include the groups handles ("Sabu", "Neuron", "storm","Recursion_", "trollpoll","io", "Topiary", "JoePie91", and "tflow"), the name of at least one of the group member's virtual proxy network server ("HideMyAss"), and more.

Among the amusing revelations is that some members appear to have quit as the government attacks started.  Reads one log:

Jun 03 23:31:23 Sabu recursion and devurandom quit respectfully
Jun 03 23:31:27 
Sabu saying they are not up for the heat
Jun 03 23:31:32 
Sabu you realize we smacked the fbi today

Later in the log they advise a new member how to cover his tracks, commenting:

Jun 03 23:40:32 ‹Neuron› Yo anyone have any extra tips for staying safe?
Jun 03 23:43:08 ‹Sabu›  clean your box out, make sure any sensitive info you have encrypted on a usb stick
Jun 03 23:43:12 ‹Sabu›  stay behind your vpn
Jun 03 23:43:16 ‹Sabu›  from now on your vpn is your weapon
Jun 03 23:43:23 ‹Sabu›  without your weapon you are nothing
Jun 03 23:43:30 ‹Sabu›  without you it is notihng blah blah blah
Jun 03 23:43:34 ‹Neuron› haha
Jun 03 23:43:39 ‹Sabu›  and dont do nothing we dont approve of :D
Jun 03 23:44:04 ‹Neuron› Alright right now.. My "hackbox" has 512 aes encryption on the entire harddrive
Jun 03 23:44:18 ‹Neuron› two passwords and truecrypt on info concerning anything hacking related
Jun 03 23:44:24 ‹Neuron› and my vpn is HideMyAss
Jun 03 23:44:43 ‹storm› sabu
Jun 03 23:44:55 ‹storm›  my netbook will be here win only a matter of days
Jun 03 23:45:01 ‹storm›  and ill be wiping my entire system
Jun 03 23:45:05 ‹storm›  desktop
Jun 03 23:45:14 ‹storm›  and just encrypting the entire drive
Jun 03 23:45:16 ‹Neuron› im already wiping my enitre desktop
Jun 03 23:45:16 ‹storm›  after i scrub it
Jun 03 23:45:58 ‹Sabu›  yeah
Jun 03 23:46:01 ‹Sabu›  wipe it all
Jun 03 23:46:04 ‹Sabu›  im wiping all my shit now

Yet another log indicates that "Topiary" and "JoePie91" are working as public relations team members for the group and helping to channel donations to it via Bitcoin.

If these logs prove real, this could prove very bad news for some members of LulzSec as they might give the government the clues they need to discover their real word identities and/or locations.

That said, there's no real smoking guns in the logs -- yet.


Comments     Threshold


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RIP Internet Freedom
By Duwelon on 6/20/2011 2:07:46 PM , Rating: 1
These guys are idiots. They think they found their life's purpose, but in reality they are sabotaging free society because the laws and regulations that will result if they're even remotely successful will be downright nasty. The Internet as we know it is going to be changing forever. Oh it'll get better for awhile and that's what will make peopel drop their guard, but it won't be long before they shove all kinds of crooked regulation and backroom dealings in to shut down free speech, etc.

Anonymous, Lulzsec, have no idea what kind of pandora's box they are trying to open.




RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By cjohnson2136 on 6/20/2011 2:11:49 PM , Rating: 2
or maybe they do...? Maybe they are actually trying to turn us into some dictatorship that they can gain control of. LMAO


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By heffeque on 6/22/2011 9:29:57 AM , Rating: 2
Well... our government IS pretty much a terrorist government, so it's to be expected that people aren't happy with it, even if most US citizens are happy with it despite of all the sh¡t it does.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By cubby1223 on 6/20/2011 2:15:15 PM , Rating: 5
Here's the little secret - these groups don't care about anyone or anything besides their own egos. They don't care "what kind of pandora's box they are trying to open." It is the rest of us who have to suffer with it, not them.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By Duwelon on 6/20/2011 2:18:11 PM , Rating: 2
Just like in the wild west... only takes a few bad apples to ruin the whole batch of pies.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By IcePickFreak on 6/20/2011 2:27:22 PM , Rating: 3
I can't help but picture a Sergio Leone movie with some pimply nerd named JoePie91 in a poncho. Doesn't work quite as well IMO.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By Duwelon on 6/20/2011 2:40:32 PM , Rating: 4
I was trying to think of a scenario when I just had a flashback to Swordfish's hacking scenes with the monitors spaced 2 feet apart, skinny stud of a hacker with Halle Berry as the prize. I still cringe just thinking about it, and I can almost see the cheese oozing off the screens, which are again, 2 feet apart.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2011 4:35:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I have been told that the best crackers in the world can do this under 60 minutes but unfortunately I need someone who can do this under 60 seconds.


/pukes

LOL that movies dialogue was ummm, something special.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By ultimatebob on 6/20/2011 9:17:09 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention that the ringleaders of this hacking group will probably end up spending a few years in a Federal (pound me in the ass) prison once they screw up and finally get caught.

After being dumb enough to DDOS the CIA, the government is going to want to make an example out of these guys.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By superstition on 6/21/2011 12:43:54 AM , Rating: 2
"Anonymous, Lulzsec, have no idea what kind of pandora's box they are trying to open."

Yeah, they couldn't possibly be a government front designed to give politicians an excuse to pass more draconian legislation designed to take away Internet freedom and freedom in general.

No... that's impossible.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By Cront on 6/21/2011 1:23:46 AM , Rating: 1
You clearly have your tin foil hat on too tight...


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By kingius on 6/21/2011 8:36:05 AM , Rating: 1
I notice that you didn't prove him wrong there, you just spoke about a hat instead.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By superstition on 6/21/2011 3:58:10 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, because conspiracies and politicians never go hand-in-hand.

Never ever.


RE: RIP Internet Freedom
By jhb116 on 6/21/2011 1:04:42 PM , Rating: 4
No kidding. The gov'ts are focused on terrorism and personal interests - not us. All of these attacks will impact many of us in some way. Meanwhile, on the other side, we have RIAA and MPAA also come down on us with a vengeance. Seems like the big losers here are us????

Why can't these guys at least expose RIAA and MPAA (and their counterparts in other countries) connections to gov't members in an attempt to true free the internet of at least one enemy?


God dammit
By quiksilvr on 6/20/2011 1:47:23 PM , Rating: 5
*takes money out of bank*




RE: God dammit
By Breakfast Susej on 6/20/2011 3:21:22 PM , Rating: 2
Being broke as hell has it's benefits sometimes.

Now if they can just hack away my debts...


RE: God dammit
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 4:02:08 PM , Rating: 2
Tyler Durden had an interesting view on that matter....


RE: God dammit
By espaghetti on 6/20/2011 9:21:35 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, damn off-site backups an redundancies.
I could've bought a nicer vehicle....haha


Mickmania
By SunTzu on 6/20/2011 1:57:44 PM , Rating: 1
"As Wikileaks has arguably demonstrated, it's easy for such efforts to devolve into financially-motivated publicity campaigns and for lives and reputations to be endangered by careless publication."

Good old Jason, never misses a chance to slander those he dislikes.




RE: Mickmania
By The Raven on 6/20/2011 5:37:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As Wikileaks has arguably demonstrated, it's easy for such efforts to devolve into financially-motivated publicity campaigns and for lives and reputations to be endangered by careless publication.

So go ahead and argue away...

Also, slandering the author without any explanation seems ironic. If you got a point, let's hear it.

You must've been a hoot in the mailroom during the ol' "letter to the editor" days.


RE: Mickmania
By adiposity on 6/20/2011 7:50:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, slandering the author without any explanation seems ironic


Yeah, he should have said "arguably," to make it ok.


RE: Mickmania
By SunTzu on 6/21/2011 1:06:14 PM , Rating: 2
DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!


RE: Mickmania
By The Raven on 6/23/2011 1:58:57 PM , Rating: 2
That's "arguable."

If he was a 'winner' then police would never be allowed to call someone a 'suspect' or say that they 'allegedly' did anything. Not all words are meaningless rhetoric.


RE: Mickmania
By superstition on 6/21/2011 12:52:34 AM , Rating: 2
Our benign overlords' actions shall never see the light of inquiry. It's for our own good.

"Who is watching the watchmen?

As Wikileaks has arguably demonstrated, it's easy for such efforts to devolve into financially-motivated publicity campaigns and for lives and reputations to be endangered by careless publication."

Yes, so many lives are at risk when the public learns what the government is doing, particularly those things the government doesn't want the public to know about. But, the good thing is that retroactive immunity protects those lives and also has the happy effect of protecting the public from unpleasant thoughts.

I, for one, definitely don't want to know what the government is doing. The more illegal and corrupt the actions are, the less I want to know about them. I'd much rather see a nice program on television and check out the latest video game... perhaps one used by the military to recruit. After all, if we can't be the ones shooting people and saying it's just like the video game, we may as well be able to get as close to the real thing as possible without any concern over what people are doing out there with the real weapons. Retroactive immunity forever and an end to FOIA! Obama/Liberman 2012!

Greenwald:

These demands that the nation's continuous use of war and violence not even be questioned are easy to understand. The nature of being an empire entails not only ruling the world through force, but also ensuring that the Emperor's decrees and actions cannot be meaningfully challenged at home.

Beyond the desire to render democratic opinion irrelevant, there is another, more specific reason why war advocates so frequently insist that critics should "shut up": because the policies they are implementing are so ludicrous and indefensible and redound to the benefit of a tiny sliver of the population. They can't be sustained if there is debate and examination over them.

This state of Endless War continues despite the fact that, as a new poll shows, 72% of Americans believe the U.S. is fighting too many wars. The poll itself is revealingly amusing: in what other country could that question -- are we fighting too many wars? -- even be meaningfully asked? It's also striking that almost 3 out of 4 Americans -- not exactly renown around the world for being war-shy -- believe the U.S. is fighting too many wars given that their country is ruled by a recent Nobel Peace Prize winner."

Public opinion and Endless War
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/...

Yeah... I wish the media outlets that publish articles based on information leaked by Wikileaks would just shut up. I hate to be bothered, and critical thinking... and -- gasp -- actually being faced with government corruption that might require ... real action like protests and thought ... (as opposed to video game action). Well... no thank you. I think Orwell's 1984 future is right on the money. Fewer words. Fewer thoughts. More serenity.


I think this is a good read for some.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 4:17:52 PM , Rating: 2
I think some people would think differently about the subject if they read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau. And while the backdrop of abolition is different, the theme of slavery is similar. These individuals, however disliked by some for some ambiguous actions, their current strife is one that is considerably legitimate.

There are those within our government that are wholly corrupt. The government itself abuses the doctrine that gives its existence legitimacy. And how does one cure corruption when the whole system has been infected? How does one recover your liberty from an organization that enforces it will by force?

What the groups propose is a form of civil disobedience and while they may attack the financial sector (which gives the corrupt their means to stay in power), they don't seem to be doing anything beyond pranks and internet sabotage. No one is going to die directly from their attacks on the public FBI, ATF, or other government website.




RE: I think this is a good read for some.
By The Raven on 6/20/2011 6:05:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think some people would think differently about the subject if they read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau.

I reread it recently and it always sounds to me like he just wrote it yesterday.
quote:
The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for, in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

Sounds like the wars in Libya, Iraq, ... ... ...
It's frickin' timeless and should be required reading everywhere.

It's a quick read...
http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil.html
...or listen:
http://librivox.org/on-the-duty-of-civil-disobedie...

But it should also be said that we as citizens should try to live withing the law first. And that means sacrifice sometimes. For example I can't complain about our debt crisis if I take gov't grants, etc.

Unfortunately nobody seems to think this way and so now we have hackers trying to level the playing field. Well I don't know who lulzsec or anon is so I can't judge character nor do I know their real intention so I'm not rooting for them, but I am not opposed to civil disobedience and it should be used whenever YOU think you should. Just be prepared to face the consequences if you get caught (a la bradass).


RE: I think this is a good read for some.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 7:58:37 PM , Rating: 2
The most striking, somewhat unique argument I got from reading it was that (as partially summarized from wikipedia)
quote:
people not to just wait passively for an opportunity to vote for justice, because voting for justice is as ineffective as wishing for justice; what you need to do is to actually be just. This is not to say that you have an obligation to devote your life to fighting for justice, but you do have an obligation not to commit injustice and not to give injustice your practical support.


Simply he is saying, if the government is committing injustice, that simply voting for a representative is effectively meaningless to actually stopping the injustice - then even further, you are supporting it.

On a side note I am not necessarily against military action in Libya (however I personally would like to see some consistency from the government in terms of stopping genocide/attacking of civilians), but I am wholly against the idea the President doing it without the Legal approval of Congress with a Declaration of War. However his point that the war being the decision of only a few people is point of fact with most every war (the only exception I can think of was after 9/11 almost every American wanted Afghanistan bombed).


By The Raven on 6/21/2011 11:48:51 AM , Rating: 2
RE: side note
Point taken. Though I would say that people wanted something done. Not necessarily bombing Afghanistan, you know?

Why is it that every time we are attacked on our home turf pretty much everyone is on board with reciprocation? (a la "a date which will live in infamy" or "I can hear you, the rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.")

Because the military is part of the DoD (for those new to the US that is the Department of DEFENSE ).

People talk about the Bush Doctrine like it is something new with the Iraq War (or even the Afghanistan War), but what the hell was the Gulf War? Vietnam War? Korean War?
Obama apparently adheres to that doctrine and is just 4 more years of the same thing as far as our foreign policy is concerned... one man acting as "the Decider." How about I am "the Decider" for whether our truly precious troops (family members in mine and many others' case) risk and give their lives for something not related to our immediate defense.
</rant>

Back on topic:
quote:
what you need to do is to actually be just.

This is so true. I hate how people complain about all the white collar crime and there they are taking 50 napkins and 20 'catsup' packets. You are either the kind of person who will take all you can get away with or you have a moral compass. There are so many hypocrites out there and they are what's powering the machine in Washington. They are good people that when forced to make a moral decision would make it. But they let the gov't make all their decisions and their morality is taken out of the equation.


Exactly what the govs want
By MartyLK on 6/20/2011 5:59:33 PM , Rating: 2
It's foolish to declare such a war on modern govs. It is exactly what the govs want and need in order to learn how to deal with cyberspace. Without such wars, the govs would continue to be in the dark about how to fight it. As the war progresses, govs become ever more familiar with what they need to do to defeat the enemy.

It's one of those situations where a gov can't lose either way. If the war isn't declared (cyber attacks don't happen), society rests peacefully and the gov benefits from that peace. If the war does happen, govs gain access to all the knowledge they need to control cyberspace and eventually control it efficiently through the resources they have at their disposal. There is no way for a gov to lose in such a war.

Sadly, the hackers waging the war are playing exactly into the hands of the high and mighty.




RE: Exactly what the govs want
By MightyAA on 6/20/2011 7:30:10 PM , Rating: 3
Agreed... and well, they don't seem to understand big bloated governments well. If the government decides to move against them, that huge wheel starts turning. It doesn't stop, it has no mercy and it won't go away. It will even crush others just to get at them. When it eventually crushes them, it's "scope" is just redefined to all hackers. It's actually harder to stop that wheel than to get it started, particularly "fear based" legislation and funding.

Who knows, maybe Lulz wants tight security, more controls by government, and stronger laws protecting (and restricting) cyberspace.. They are encouraging big brother by taunting him. Some giants you really shouldn't go picking fights with.


RE: Exactly what the govs want
By xyzCoder on 6/22/2011 9:25:49 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think so, because of the following issue: the establishment has lost its old control over information and opinion, and because of that we are seeing things like the massive and still growing protests in the Middle East, Europe and, finally, the US (Bloombergville, for example).

Although I am sure the self-centered out there want nothing more than to take advantage of this like everything else, the parasites that make up the top 1% are the ones who stand to lose right now, and we need to press our sudden advantage.

We finally have an opportunity to see real change, and in fact change has already happened to such a vast degree that it is only a matter of time before all these lies fall all over themselves, but it won't be a day too soon.

I think the best thing to do is to protest peacefully and simply spread better info, but I can't help but feel that such risky actions from these hackers seem likely to also help accelerate our entry into this new age of reason. (I'm at www.betterinfos.com)


Hack the Senate and House
By gorehound on 6/20/2011 4:05:41 PM , Rating: 2
I do not care what you are politically conservative or liberal.i am sure many would like to see out in the open the corruption and money-lobbying that is going on.i want to know the facts.I want all who take money thrown out of government and given a criminal trial.
those politicians who take advantage of the system should be paying for it and this will give us all some justice.
we all know that lots of cash is passing around behind closed doors.let these guys open that door and many will like that one action alone




Last laugh
By gevorg on 6/20/2011 4:34:53 PM , Rating: 2
Those who laugh last laugh best. I'm afraid its a matter of time until governments take even more control over internet and make the days of internet freedom as past history.




Hey, if...
By mmatis on 6/20/2011 10:34:55 PM , Rating: 2
they can keep FedPig busy, even for a short while, they can't be all bad!




By BubbaJoe TBoneMalone on 6/21/2011 7:52:42 AM , Rating: 2
...financially collapsing the global economony starting with Greece. LulzSec and Anonymous should just let them fall on their sword.




By bigdawg1988 on 6/21/2011 1:38:57 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.ajc.com/business/uk-police-make-arrest-...
If they busted this guy today, they must have been watching him for a couple of days or so. And if they announced it they are either trying to scare the other guys - or they already have their names and are on the way.
RUN MF RUN!!

Don't know if this guy was really involved or not, but it looks like some folks are in trouble....




Hilarious...
By xpax on 6/20/2011 3:07:22 PM , Rating: 1
... comments. Are they doing it for egotistical reasons? Possibly, however, I'm entirely certain they care about our freedom a hell of a lot more than government does. Governments (especially the US) have done everything they possibly could to strip people of their personal freedoms in the past decade. Sure, they use terrorists as strawmen, but that's complete BS at this point and anyone with half a brain cell realizes that. You can't save freedom by taking it away.

Will it speed up the militarization of the internet? Possibly, but again, the government heads further in that direction every day -- whilst simultaneously taking obvious and egregious bribes from the entertainment industry. At this point, Americans are presented with two options when it comes to politicians; clueless or corrupt.




Oh please
By FITCamaro on 6/20/2011 9:21:18 PM , Rating: 1
Say this means we'll kill these idiots now.




These little kids need a lesson.
By chick0n on 6/20/11, Rating: -1
RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By cjohnson2136 on 6/20/2011 2:06:51 PM , Rating: 1
Exactly "wiping your harddrive" won't do any good because the government will just kill you regardless if there is evidence or not.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By BZDTemp on 6/20/11, Rating: -1
RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By FITCamaro on 6/20/2011 9:23:33 PM , Rating: 3
Yes because our government has a large history of just killing citizens who they claimed did something wrong.

Idiot.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 9:37:31 PM , Rating: 2
Is that a joke or sarcasm? As far as the federal government (excluding military) has killed plenty of people throughout its existence.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By mmatis on 6/20/11, Rating: 0
RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By FITCamaro on 6/20/2011 11:00:16 PM , Rating: 2
Please give me examples of citizens who the government executed without proving any wrong doing. There were a few mistakes with Gitmo. But they weren't killed.

Now that I think about it though, the only President who I can think of would be FDR with his internment camps for Japanese Americans. I'm sure some died in those camps. Funny how the libs who think he was great never mention that.

Oh and Indian's who weren't US citizens don't count. Was it tragic? Yes. Pertinent example? No.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By Lord 666 on 6/21/2011 2:13:18 AM , Rating: 2
Seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Olson - Settled out of court for 750,000


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By FITCamaro on 6/21/2011 7:43:36 AM , Rating: 3
OK so your one example is a conspiracy theory.

Let's just play that game. What if he was a researcher about to sell secrets to the Russian's and was then taken out? I really could care less if such a person was killed.

Maybe he just wanted to release confidential information to the public that would have threatened national security.

Point being, there is no long term history of the US government killing people who have done nothing wrong but merely being thought to.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By mmatis on 6/21/2011 12:14:22 PM , Rating: 2
Then let's try Vicki Weaver. Or the whole crowd at Waco. And it ain't just FedPig. The locals are pretty darn good at it as well, with Kathryn Johnston, Eric Scott, Jose Gurena, and many more. And it's pure luck that FedPig did not murder Kenneth Wright and his kids in their raid the other week.

The stench is overwhelming. And it smells like pig.


By Lord 666 on 6/22/2011 1:43:19 PM , Rating: 2
Not conspiracy theory, fact. The reasoning does matter, but a $750,000 apology back in 1975 is a pretty big "I'm sorry."

MKUltra was about (amont other things) creating a seperate drug fueled economy by introducing illicit chemicals into the mainstream population. Started at the universities (with the Unibomber being one test subject) and then spread with the counter-culture and music. Big difference of the Beatles (and other musicians) music between 1967 and 1968.

Then fast forward to the 80's with the CIA-Contra-drug connection. Always found it astonishing that drug dealers had figured out (and collectively communicated their drug cookbook) that mixing baking soda and cocaine would result into a cheaper and more potent mix. Distribute to certain areas of the county and it would spread like wild-fire.

http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/9712/ch01p1.htm


By mikeyD95125 on 6/21/2011 12:34:34 PM , Rating: 2
What is your reasoning behind native americans not counting?

They are human beings, but they don't pay taxes so we get to do whatever we want to them?

Ignoring holocausts, how conveinent.


By BZDTemp on 6/21/2011 12:55:11 PM , Rating: 2
What's you're logic behind only caring for US citizens?

To me it sounds exactly why the image of US in the world has change from a very positive one to even downright hate in some places. I live in a country where we have put resources and have had soldiers pay the ultimate price in operations taking part a long side US soldiers and other nationalities since like forever. Are you saying that when I visit the US it's fine to kill me because only US citizens count - I certainly hope not!


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By xpax on 6/21/2011 11:01:42 PM , Rating: 2
The US government commits crimes on a regular basis. Murder is one of them -- against citizens and non-citizens alike. They have no respect for the law, only the will and the manpower to enforce their will upon the people. The people have no say in the laws that are being made, even though said laws only bind the people. The government just ignores laws when they become inconvenient for them.

The people have no recourse. They have a placebo given to them every four years in which they get to choose from two 'candidates'. In fact, these candidates are just different heads attached to the same beast.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By EricMartello on 6/20/2011 2:24:20 PM , Rating: 4
This is part of the problem. You're mentality is a great example of why our government has become so big, bloated and self-serving. The government already operates outside of the laws it imposes on its citizens for its own gain, and too many people regard the government as some kind of all-powerful deity. It's not in the least.

Let's supposed that the information hacker groups reveal pisses off enough people to create an uprising. As I like to point out, the people vastly outnumber the government. Short of bombarding their own citizens the government can be removed if enough people feel it is warranted.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By priusone on 6/20/2011 2:55:34 PM , Rating: 2
Eric, I'm sorry to call you out on this, but you obviously underestimate the sheer lack of motivation of the silent majority. While it would be hilarious to see the documents which implicate the major banks in the scams that nearly brought down wallstreet, even IF they produced those documents, nothing will happen. Okay, maybe the CEO's would only get a few million in bonuses, but that's about it.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By Samus on 6/20/2011 3:16:16 PM , Rating: 4
Eric, we're not Egypt. Do you really picture people rallying in D.C. for the President to step down?

The President isn't the problem. It's the Senate and it always has been.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By gamerk2 on 6/20/2011 3:41:41 PM , Rating: 3
To be fair, theres a reason why the Senate was named after the Roman upper house, and why Senators were elected by members of the House: It kept down corruption. In short, the founding fathers made a house SPECIFICALLY for the rich, knowing that money and bribes would overtake it, for the purpose of keeping the House of Representatives pure.

Then someone got the GREAT idea that the people should have more power, and directly elect their Senators. With the people now in equal power in both houses, money infested the house, and thus people lost their government in their own attempts to get more control over it.


By Wererat on 6/20/2011 4:58:57 PM , Rating: 3
Minor point of order: the original Constitution has the *state* Houses electing each state's federal Senators.

You may already know and have intended this, but the reader may think that the federal House originally elected the Senators.

In any case I don't think "money and bribes" were the only thing the Founders intended to thwart, but also mob rule. The House is directly elected and has a short term of office to ensure responsiveness to the people; the Senate was not, and has a longer term, in order to tame wild swings of public opinion.

A helpful side effect of not being directly elected by the people was that Senators were not busy conducting statewide campaigns and didn't need to gather campaign money. No massive expensive campaign, no pull for big-money lobbyists.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 4:00:35 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not saying there should or shouldn't be rebellion, but as evidence of history, the amount needed for a successful rebellion is only 10-15% support from the population (some having even less). Then once a rebellion is started, anyone can take over and not always those who started the rebellion for legitimate grievances.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By mmatis on 6/20/2011 10:42:48 PM , Rating: 2
The number for the American Revolution was roughly 3%...


By Breakfast Susej on 6/20/2011 3:20:20 PM , Rating: 1
By the people, for the people sure did get lost along the way somewhere didn't it.

Now what is it? By the banks and corporations, for the profit.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/11, Rating: -1
RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 4:53:05 PM , Rating: 2
Call someone an idiot for failure in logic then show none yourself...

Because the group has grievances with Sony does not mean they have illegitimate grievances against the government(s), those corrupt in power, or the system that keeps those corrupt powerful.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/11, Rating: -1
RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 5:38:45 PM , Rating: 1
I never said the group was "legitimate" only that their grievance wasn't illegitimate because of past behavior or grievances. Bad behavior or perceived bad behavior does not preclude one from having other legitimate issues that are unrelated. The only way I currently see their governmental grievances are illegitimate is if their bad behavior (or perceived) caused the grievance (ie their hacking of corporations and/or government caused the corruption).


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2011 5:52:48 PM , Rating: 4
This is a civilized society though. You don't get to air your grievances after breaking tons of laws like these guys did and stealing millions of credit card numbers and other information. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

You say they have legitimate grievances, and they may very well be, but this isn't the way you go about voicing them.

Personally I think this is a bunch of BS made to give legitimacy to an online terrorist group. Wake me up when they do something that actually benefits society.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 8:08:41 PM , Rating: 1
You aren't being consistent, the government violates the constitution all the time (the foundation of governance that gives the government the power of Law) and they economic sector the groups are talking about also violated the law. By your assertion, you are effectively saying since they violated the law they are completely fair game as well.

On second point, I agree this may or may not be the best way to address the grievance (as this is an entirely different topic).

While I respect your opinion in regards to their motivations, as neither one of us are able to truly judge their motivation, I am personally of the opinion, based on previous readings from these types of members associated with the groups and my general understanding of them, is that they are probably telling the truth in regards disliking the actions they are complaining about.

They have consistently complained of erosion of rights (especially those that affect them) and have a negative attitude of authority in which they see the acts of the corporations and government as attacks on them. Having being attacked, they respond with attacks of their own kind.

I'm not necessarily advocating their view, but saying they have been consistent with this type of message. I'm sure they are doing this because of this, what remains to be seen if there is any ulterior motives beyond "freedom fighting and corruption elimination".


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2011 8:25:43 PM , Rating: 1
Very eloquent I must say. But I think the problem I have with this line of thinking is that it can be used to justify anything. And I seriously doubt these hackers are suddenly Constitutional lawyers and are trying to make the world a better place.

quote:
They have consistently complained of erosion of rights (especially those that affect them) and have a negative attitude of authority in which they see the acts of the corporations and government as attacks on them. Having being attacked, they respond with attacks of their own kind.


Well then they have dealt their cause a more serious blow than any Government could have. Nobody is going to remember them as some glorious freedom fighters. They will always just be the assholes that shut down PSN for a whole month and stole peoples credit cards.

In this sense, their "motivations" almost don't even matter. They could have published an online newsletter or website, they could have become lawyers and challenged the system, they could have done anything. They chose to be criminals.

And honestly, what did hacking a senior citizens website have to do with "erosion of rights" and the Constitution? I think you're going out of your way to legitimize these guys a bit much.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 8:40:54 PM , Rating: 2
I would agree they aren't constitutional lawyers, but in their mind they are trying to make the world a better place. Their fighting a fight that first and foremost affects them and what they believe negatively affects everyone else. One could argue their are misguided in their effort of execution (certainly a debatable topic).

What I think is a larger question is if they succeed in gaining any sort of power themselves, are they going to abuse it as the overlords they hate do. Slay the monster by becoming the monster.

And again, I'm not trying to legitimize the group, only countering your original argument that they didn't have a legitimate grievance because of past bad action. Beyond that, the question becomes can someone who did past bad action, do current good action?

If a hypothetical group who had previously stolen peoples identities and money, then hacked a pharmaceutical company to find a cure for cancer that the company had been with holding and releases it to the public, does that make the group good?

What if it happens in the reverse order? Is good/bad a matter of mathematically attributes added or subtracted? Is it once saint forever good or once tarnished forever dirty? Or does ones actions exist in a vacuum of the present with the past completely irrelevant?


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By Reclaimer77 on 6/20/2011 8:50:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but in their mind they are trying to make the world a better place.


Well so was Timothy McVeigh. He saw our own government murder citizens in Waco, Texas and figured he would even the score and set things right. I don't have to tell you how wrong and insane he was for it.

quote:
Beyond that, the question becomes can someone who did past bad action, do current good action?


What is this, chicken or the egg? Well I guess yes you can, but you're still going to have to answer for the previous "bad action". And, again, I don't honestly believe for one minute these people are now trying to do "good" things. Even if they are, my point is their methods are completely unacceptable.

You're hitting me with a lot of philosophical arguments. And while they are quite fun to entertain, I must admit, unfortunately they only go so far in our "real world" society with it's laws and other trappings.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By NullSubroutine on 6/20/2011 9:03:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well so was Timothy McVeigh. He saw our own government murder citizens in Waco, Texas and figured he would even the score and set things right. I don't have to tell you how wrong and insane he was for it.


True, intent cannot be the sole judgement for right and wrong. The act should be the main consideration and in this case so far their action has been in the terms of vandalism not mass murder. I think most would concede that only in the rarest of occasions does loss of life not outweigh the "right" of action.

On the other hand liberty is and most likely always will be paid for in blood. So another philosophical question for you, what is more important liberty or life? Without life you can't enjoy liberty, but is life worthy without liberty?

The storming of the Bastille in France is still celebrated as their independence day if I am not mistaken, not only did many people die that day, but the revolution itself was horribly bloody, many innocent people died. This smorning when I woke up I thought of Hitler's quote about success/right/wrong and had this to say about it:
quote:
Success/Victory is not the sole judge of right, but it surely convinces alot of people.


By Reclaimer77 on 6/21/2011 1:06:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So another philosophical question for you, what is more important liberty or life? Without life you can't enjoy liberty, but is life worthy without liberty?


Well that's a no-briner. Life. As long as you are alive you have a chance to fight for what you want. Being dead never solved anything.

I just think it's silly for anyone to convince themselves these hackers are suddenly fighting for our "Liberty". Or that hacking, in general, is an effective means of securing it.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By gescom on 6/20/2011 8:20:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

So, how does it work then? Being Calm and "Smart"? No?

quote:
Wake me up when they do something that actually benefits society.

LOL. Like what? Playing a guitar? Singing songs of freedom? LOL. Go Volunteer at a soup kitchen then? No? What then? Writing some "smartass" books like "A guide to how to pay off your mortgage early"? No? At Home watching 500 channels? Laughing out loud in front of US ambassies? No? Your Quoted sentence is just a yesterday's bullshit.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By mmatis on 6/20/2011 10:39:21 PM , Rating: 2
You mean like FedPig did in murdering Vicki Weaver? Or MLVPD did in murdering Eric Scott? Or Atlanta Pig did in murdering Kathryn Johnston? Or Pima County Sheriff's Department Pig did in murdering Jose Gurena? Or FedPig did in murdering the people in Waco?


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By EricMartello on 6/20/2011 7:57:08 PM , Rating: 2
First of all, laws created by a corrupt government are void and wholly irrelevant - especially laws that exist soley for members of the government to continue abusing their power. This isn't a legal issue; it's about what is right for the people of the USA vs what's right for a the select few entrenched within our government. The founding fathers of the USA were branded outlaws and terrorists by the Crown - but to us they are the foundation of our country. Semantics really don't matter - results do.

You like ignore the bigger picture and say this is just about some "kiddies" hacking for fun, but there is a fundamental issue - the US Government is becoming increasingly inept at performing the tasks for which it was orignally founded.

Documents like the Constitution or Declaration of Independence are quite literally mocked as our bloated legal and legislative system - which is biased towards the wealthy - create an environment where Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness are no longer reasonable expectations for the common individual.

The US Government is too big for its own good. The authoritative power needs to be adjusted and redistributed. Fundamental changes need to take place that FORCE the government to serve its peoples' best interest and not those who throw the most money down on the table.

There are times when it is reasonable to fix something and there are other times when the best remedy is to tear down the existing construct and start from scratch...today, the latter is the appropriate solution.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By mmatis on 6/20/2011 11:00:28 PM , Rating: 2
The Constitution is the sole authorization for the Federal Government in the United States. That document sets specific limitations on the scope and authority of that government. EVERY member of the Federal Government, as well as members of the State governments (who agreed to abide by the Constitution as a term of their membership in the United States) takes an oath to "...preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution..."

The Constitution is written in English, not legalese, and means, except as amended, what it meant when it was ratified. FedGov has grossly misrepresented the Constitution, and FedPig as well as Local Pig have spit on their oath of office. Unless and until "Law Enforcement" actually bothers to honor their oath of office, attacks such as this are FAR MORE appropriate than what the FedPig response will be.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By VultureTX on 6/21/2011 11:09:38 AM , Rating: 2
anarchy is appropriate?

yeah and your plan will make it better?

simple question since you are for opening the government ala WikiLeaks. Please state the US law violated in the collateral murder video.

/I may be pro libertarian, but I am not pro anarchist which is all I see in the Anon crowd.


RE: These little kids need a lesson.
By mmatis on 6/21/2011 12:17:36 PM , Rating: 2
When FedPig fails to honor their oath of office, they are not "Law Enforcement" but instead are merely Thugs with Guns. If the Mafia was running your city, what would YOU do? Sick their ducks, as you seem willing to do with FedPig?


By VultureTX on 6/21/2011 3:12:57 PM , Rating: 2
oh so you are just another disposable member of the anarchist mob with no clue for happens after the "revolution".

/sad that anyone who actually listens to rhetoric like yours is doing themselves a disfavor. It's not like you have answers just insults. see ya in the line of fire buddy.


By EricMartello on 6/22/2011 2:24:53 AM , Rating: 2
Anarchy isn't even clearly defined, but what needs to be done right now is quite clear. Suggesting inaction is a better solution than to take action is completely laughable.

Undermining the self-appointed power of the government and showing the people (and those currently in power) that if we want to we can take away that which the government of today has been taking for granted - its authority.

Things usually get worse before they get better, but that is the nature of a revolution. Are you afraid? If you are, nobody is stopping you from hightailing to Canada. The USA is a country born of revolution and that spirit is still there, ready to arise when the time is right...


"Young lady, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" -- Homer Simpson














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