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Samsung says release damages it competitively; federal judge says "too bad", sides with local firm, Apple

While Samsung Electronics Comp., Ltd. (KSC:005930) and Apple, Inc. (AAPL) are still preparing to square off for a second major patent infringement case, both companies are also actively engrossed in battling over damages in the first case, which saw Apple found innocent of infringement and Samsung guilty of $1.05B USD in willful infringement.

U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California Judge Lucy Koh gave Samsung a bit of a boost in December when she rejected Apple's request to ban sales of 26 Samsung "Galaxy" products, writing that Apple failed to prove that Samsung's infringement drove the demand for Samsung products.

But she's still in the process of finalizing how much Samsung should have to pay Apple.

And this week she dealt Samsung a blow, denying a request by Samsung to seal the results of a Dec. 10 request she made to Samsung.  Judge Koh had asked Samsung last month to reveal unit sales of certain products over certain time periods.  It is unknown what models precisely were requested, but they likely included the Galaxy S and Galaxy S II smartphones -- centerpieces of Apple's first infringement case against Samsung.
 
Samsung had pleaded with Judge Koh to keep those details out of the public eye, arguing that it would damage it from a competitive perspective.  Judge Koh had little sympathy for the South Korean electronics company, though, siding with local firm Apple, who argued the information should be made public regardless of the damage to its rival.

Apple is pushing Judge Koh to triple the damages to over $3B USD, which can be done in certain cases if the infringement was deemed "willful".  Samsung, meanwhile, is urging Judge Koh to trim the settlement, pointing out that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has filed preliminary invalidation rulings regarding two of the key Apple utility patents involved in the case.

Thus at this point damages could go in any direction.  For now all that is clear is that we'll soon be learning some new information on Samsung sales and that for now no Samsung products are banned.

Source: Bloomberg


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What seems to be the problem ?
By Gondor on 1/2/2013 2:12:43 PM , Rating: 2
If sales were good, Samsung should be proud of the fact and use it for advertising purposes.

If sales were bad that means Apple has no grounds to claim that Samsung copied their telephone. The downside is that competition would know how bad the sales were and perhaps figure out where they went wrong in followup years to lose their share to Samsung.

Either way it can't be all bad for Samsung to reveal those figures, it won't affect the share price since those are past sales from years ago.




RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By ritualm on 1/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By xti on 1/2/2013 3:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"Punish them because America! Yuck Feah!"


its "FK YEAH" you commie.


By ritualm on 1/2/2013 7:41:57 PM , Rating: 2
It's hard to understand when you're not aware of DT's swear word filter routines, you socialist.


RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By Tony Swash on 1/2/13, Rating: -1
RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By ritualm on 1/2/2013 7:45:33 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I think probably on balance it is a bit more likely that it is you who are being illogical.

Oh look, illogical troll accuses others for illogical trolling.

Pot, kettle, black. Your lips are full of Tim Crook's dairy creamer. You're a disgusting piece of dog poop.


RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By Andora76 on 1/2/2013 11:58:54 PM , Rating: 1
Get help buddy. Why are you so passionately anti-Apple? What vested interest do you have? Since when did tech supporters become so emotionally unstable in support of or against tech companies? Who really cares. Just be happy your phone works. Now go smoke some pot and relax.


RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By ritualm on 1/3/2013 2:20:51 AM , Rating: 2
So I am not allowed to criticize Apple even if I use Apple products almost exclusively? How freaking logical of you.

Not.

Oh and by the way, Apple's response to the Do Not Disturb feature not auto-turning itself off per schedule settings = wait a week for it to fix itself! The phones are broken! Meanwhile, millions of Android smartphones which you routinely lambast as totally lacking in innovation and originality do not have such unfixed issues!


RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By Tony Swash on 1/3/13, Rating: -1
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 2:18:44 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... You are great Tony. This is what I meant in the other thread about the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

"That must be why Apple will sell 50 million iPhones this quarter and Google will be lucky to sell 500,000 Nexus 4"

You pick one Android model with well publicized supply problems and leave out the fact that Android is outselling iPhone by a 5 to 1 margin and climbing fast. Also you added zero to the topic at hand. While you didn't "lie" you are still totally full of s%&t and everyone sees it.


By Andora76 on 1/2/2013 11:51:45 PM , Rating: 2
Good point. The numbers don't lie regardless of how emotionally unstable people get over Apple.


RE: What seems to be the problem ?
By Nortel on 1/2/2013 2:34:06 PM , Rating: 2
If sales were bad, in what logic construct would that constitute Samsung not copying Apple? If a random Chinese company blatantly makes iPhone clones doesn't sell 50 million units, they aren't copying Apple?


By retrospooty on 1/2/2013 2:43:54 PM , Rating: 1
Apple and Samsung... READ MY LIPS... http://i.imgur.com/Kg8NV.gif

(a re-post, but well worth it)


Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/2/13, Rating: -1
RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/2/2013 3:21:19 PM , Rating: 2
[/facepalm]

Yes, poor poor Apple was copied.

They would get alot more sympathy if they weren't one of the worst companies in the tech industry at copying other companies ideas.

I fully stand behind my post above. BIG fingers to both Apple and Samsung.


RE: Glad to see it
By Nortel on 1/2/13, Rating: -1
RE: Glad to see it
By Cheesew1z69 on 1/2/2013 4:17:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple pays for use of other companies patents
No, no they don't, not always.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57547606-37/in-y...


RE: Glad to see it
By messele on 1/3/2013 2:13:35 AM , Rating: 2
And you have the gall to call Apple patent trolls? How can you avoid infringing on patents of companies who are hiding behind anonymous faces like VirnetX?

Besides, looks like they paid to me...


RE: Glad to see it
By theapparition on 1/3/2013 12:45:32 PM , Rating: 2
By doing a diligent and thorough patent search.


RE: Glad to see it
By maugrimtr on 1/3/2013 8:34:26 AM , Rating: 2
Apple also copied the phone. They blatantly copied the position of the ear ring speaker, and microphone and then proceeded to make it capable of making and receiving phone calls. The bast***s!

All companies copy from each other. The real world calls it free market competition. Apple are actually suing over stuff they "patented" (two of those patents now being preliminarily ruled as invalid for obvious reasons). The damages being awarded are likewise utterly moronic. Bouncy animations and making rectangular phones with rounded corners are clearly not worth $3B.


RE: Glad to see it
By Nortel on 1/2/13, Rating: -1
RE: Glad to see it
By nafhan on 1/2/2013 4:41:58 PM , Rating: 2
It sounds like you're implying that the current IP madness is ultimately good for the consumer, then?

Note: the original intent of the patent system was to increase innovation for the good of the consumer. Instead we have millions of dollars of electronics being thrown in the trash because they look somewhat similar to some other companies electronics. We have huge companies spending more on lawyers than R&D. We have thousands of companies set up solely to just sue others and rake in money from it. I read today (on Ars Technica) about a case where small business are being extorted for hundreds of thousands of dollars because someone patented scanning a document and then emailing it. You keep supporting this stuff, though. It must be good because Apple is for it!


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/2/2013 4:56:23 PM , Rating: 4
No, what Nortel does is take Apples side no matter what and DOES NOT pay attention to all of the facts, especially when they dont favor Apple...

Things Apple copied just recently... Ignoring all the stuff Mac copied.
- Notifications
- Over the air update methodology
- Widgets
- Free turn by turn navigation
- Social network integration methodology
- Multitasking
- Drop Down Notifications
- Opening apps from the lock screen
- Custom Wallpapers
- Panoramic photos

I am sure some day soon we will see them copy multi-user support, Multi-window support and a whole bunch of other stuff as well to try to catch up with the competition.

Nortel, Apple isn't worthy of your idolization. It's hardly worthy of you as a customer, much less a disciple. Its a company FFS. Get over it.


RE: Glad to see it
By nafhan on 1/2/2013 5:16:19 PM , Rating: 2
That does seem to be more likely than anything else. Ah well.
quote:
I am sure some day soon we will see them copy... to try to catch up with the competition.
Except it won't be catching up, it will be doing it right for the first time ever in the history of computing, AND IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE! :) Seriously, though, they should and will copy this stuff, it makes sense, and that's how technology advances!


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/2/2013 5:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly... And there is nothing wrong with it if Apple does copy these things. All companies build off the ideas of others. Its not about who thinks of the best thing, its about who can bring it to market at a price point that people will buy it at. That is called free market and its how business has always been done since civilization began. Then only "foul" going on here is Apple crying about it and suing as if they dont do it themselves.

I wonder what the honest answer would be if we could ask Steve Jobs what the iPhone would be if not for Palm and RIMM?

Answer(if there were no Palm and RIMM): "What is an iPhone?"


RE: Glad to see it
By Conner36 on 1/2/2013 10:55:45 PM , Rating: 1
And if there was no Newton:
"Whats a palm pilot?"
And if there was no Larry Tesler at Apple: (Started the project after Steve Jobs was ousted in 1987)
"Whats a Newton?"
And if there was no Steve Jobs and Woz:
"Whats Apple?"

Learn your history... it's easy enough with access to the internet. Products like the Android or iPhone have deep development roots and it's mere chance that someone came up with the idea before someone else. Give credit to where credit is do though. There were many smart people working their butts off under Steve's direction to make the iPhone. Small known fact that the tech in the iPhone was meant for a tablet, but Steve saw a market and directed the engineers to create a phone.
It takes a good company to foster good chance taking which is why RIM is in the shitter right now.

ps It took years before the competition caught up with the original iPhone's UI snappiness

pps The tech industry as a whole needs to stop using patents as a crutch, but at this point with so much money on the line you would have to be crazy not to sue. It's just business. And its up to US citizens to vote people into Congress to affect change and make sense out of copyright and patents.


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 7:45:36 AM , Rating: 2
"Learn your history"

If you did, you would know that the Apple Newton and Palm Pilot both copied the earlier Psion product (The first PDA)... But that doesn't change my point, in fact it underlines it. ALL companies build off the ideas of others. Apple has a long history of copying other companies products and again, there is nothing wrong with that.

"it took years before the competition caught up with the original iPhone's UI snappiness"

It did. The initial iPhone was a huge homerun. Apple's reward for making that hit product was record profits. Now they have been caught up with and surpassed and they are suing instead of going back to innovating. THAT is the problem here.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/2013 9:43:09 AM , Rating: 1
And if you knew your history, you'd know that every technology the world uses came from the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Simon


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 10:27:23 AM , Rating: 2
This helps my point that all companies copy and its OK. Thanks.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/2/2013 6:11:20 PM , Rating: 1
A few of the things Google was ripping from Apple illegally based on patent rights.

slide/swipe-to-unlock
drag-over-icon-to-create-folder
embedded hyperlink phone numbers

Where's the patents on what you listed?


RE: Glad to see it
By ritualm on 1/3/2013 2:24:54 AM , Rating: 2
Google ripping off Apple on software gestures? LOL

Software patents are full of bullcrap. So are your posts.


RE: Glad to see it
By nafhan on 1/3/2013 10:15:39 AM , Rating: 2
Your examples are great illustrations of one of the current problems with IP law: they're not innovations worthy of protection. Nonsense like this is exactly why we've got companies spending more on lawyers than R&D.

You'd like to slow down innovation in order to protect a simple method for creating folders on a touchscreen. WHY?


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/2013 11:12:08 AM , Rating: 2
I disagree. I see the merit in protecting IP work. It's very much similar to protecting a bunch of oil paint and canvas mixed together in a specific way to produce a highly valued work of art.

At its root, a painting that gains worldwide recognition and multi-million-dollar value is nothing more than a smearing of paints on a simple canvas. But the value comes not only from the way the smearing of paint was done, but also by whom it was done.

Anyone can spear paint on a canvas. But that doesn't lead to value. Anyone can produce a swipe-lock effect, but the originator of the effect takes the crown.


RE: Glad to see it
By nafhan on 1/3/2013 4:33:38 PM , Rating: 2
Part of protecting IP is creating reasonable criteria for determining which IP is valuable. I'm not discussing IP vs. no IP. I'm discussing protecting IP at a reasonable level vs. what we have now - which is skewed towards incumbents and legal posturing rather than innovation, research, and benefit for the consumer (i.e. ideas in line with the original intent of IP). If that ends up looking "anti-Apple", that may be because you care about Apple and only Apple - not the larger environment of technology and innovation.


RE: Glad to see it
By Strunf on 1/4/2013 6:06:04 AM , Rating: 2
What you fail to see is that you can make 1 million different paintings or more, the chances that 2 people come up with the same painting is virtually impossible, that's why you can put a copyright on it just so no one copies it.

On a smart-phone touch sensitive or not there are very few possibilities, if you want to unlock a phone and it's touch sensitive the very basic would be touch to unlock or touch and move to unlock, the barn at my grandmother farm has a slide to unlock door, there's really nothing new on a slide to unlock. The same with the two fingers thing to zoom, this has been around for ages on science fiction movies...

At the end of the day you use your fingers to operate a touch-sensitive device so it's perfectly normal to admit than you never really come up with a unique input method.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/2013 11:31:48 AM , Rating: 2
I have to resort to this because of the censorship here.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/MartyLK/Pos...


RE: Glad to see it
By ritualm on 1/3/2013 5:29:23 PM , Rating: 2
If you really think DT is censoring you on purpose, wait until you're in North Korea.


RE: Glad to see it
By Andora76 on 1/3/2013 12:07:46 AM , Rating: 2
If Apple is starting to copy other companies in order to stay competitive then great for us - the consumer. Sounds like competition is working. I can only hope we see more tech adoptions (copying.). I do have to say, those 3D maps Apple has is pretty awesome, regardless of who invented what. I can care less who invents what as long as the consumer can benefit. Now they need to just fix the maps, since at this point the 3D maps are not trust-worthy at all.


RE: Glad to see it
By inighthawki on 1/2/2013 3:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
Apple had to apologize because they acted like arrogant jerks, and the judge didn't like their attitude. Samsung has not. See the difference?


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/2/13, Rating: -1
RE: Glad to see it
By themaster08 on 1/4/2013 2:25:38 AM , Rating: 2
You're an idiot. Get your head seen to.


RE: Glad to see it
By xti on 1/2/2013 3:44:06 PM , Rating: 2
i still dont get how a company is said to be "arrogant jerks".


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/2/2013 4:57:52 PM , Rating: 2
"i still dont get how a company is said to be "arrogant jerks"."

Your holding it wrong, or the deliberate falsification of benchmarks are 2 of my personal favorites.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: Glad to see it
By Dorkyman on 1/2/2013 8:28:28 PM , Rating: 4
Hmmm...That's not how I remember it.

I seem to recall that the iPhone4 design was a bit unusual and the antenna was exposed. Put your finger across the tiny gap on the left-hand side, and the signal gets clobbered. I don't recall the same issue with other contemporary phones.

Could be wrong, but I think DT had multiple articles about AntennaGate.


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/2/2013 9:01:43 PM , Rating: 3
no, you are correct about the issue. But the arrogant part was the a****** CEO saying you're holding it wrong to his customers. What you're supposed to do is acknowledge the problem not call your customers idiots.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 7:10:25 AM , Rating: 2
Where do I even start with you? You posting that some other phones had a similar problem does NOT mean it wasn't a problem. Holding the phone as many people do should NOT cause reception issues. Apple did go back and fix it for the next gen, so fixing a problem doesn't make it a non-problem, it was clearly a problem or Apple wouldn't have fixed it... Good that they did though. And "Holding it wrong" was not only an arrogant way of treating your customers it was technically incorrect as to the problem.

Seriously, what are you on?


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/2/2013 9:29:18 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Put your finger across the tiny gap on the left-hand side, and the signal gets clobbered


I never experienced that issue with my iPhone 4 or any of my friend's or my brother's iPhone 4s. And we had the 1st design from AT&T.

I know that I deliberately and with intent tried to get the signal to fall away by doing exactly that - putting finger across gap and so forth. But was unsuccessful. In fact, the signal didn't drop at all that way. But I did manage to get it to drop moderately by holding normally in my hand - the very same thing with any of my other phones.

I call B.S. on the claims. My brother and I even went to the local Apple store to test out the display units they had and none of them performed any differently than our own units.


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 7:22:03 AM , Rating: 2
1st off, it was the iPhone 4. The 4s had already fixed the issue. 2nd off, the issue was signal related. Just because you, one person had an iPhone 4 and no problem doesnt mean hundreds of thousands of others didnt have the issue. Clearly it was an issue as iPhone 4 owners reported it. Not the competitors...The owners. Clearly it was an issue as Apple publicly addressed it, and fixed it (after denying it)


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/2013 9:32:18 AM , Rating: 2
Really? You're going to make an erring distinction between iPhone 4s and iPhone 4S? Whereas "iPhone 4s" designates plurality and "iPhone 4S" designates model name.

Come on, have a clue, will ya? Just because a small percentage of very vocal people harasses Apple over a common issue that can be seen on all phones, does not make Apple the bad guy.

Open up your mind and be objective. Only then will you be able to see both sides. Until then, you are only an Apple hater.


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 9:37:45 AM , Rating: 2
No, ya ding dong. I am not picking apart your capitalizations... I am telling you the antenna issue existed on the iphone 4 NOT on the 4S FFS, you are thick headed and ill informed. The issue DOES NOT exist on all phones. The iPhone 4S for example.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/2013 9:53:36 AM , Rating: 2
WTF! I never said anything about the iPhone 4S. I never mentioned the iPhone 4S once in any of my posts.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/2013 10:01:01 AM , Rating: 2
Idiot! The issue DID exist on all phones at the time the iPhone 4 was released. Sheesh! Talk about thick-headed. I even made note that my current and modern Galaxy S3 shows no signs of any signal loss.

Of course there is no issue with later phones, dingbat. That doesn't mean the issue, which was so hotly debated and made known by the dumbasses who berated Apple over it, wasn't on all other phones, to varying degrees, at the time.


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 10:14:51 AM , Rating: 2
OK, lets get this straight since you are being a complete dipshit about it.

1. Signal attenuation problems can exist on any phone depending on where the hand is and the signal strength at the time... This in itself is NOT an issue. It BECOMES an issue when it casues reception problems on phones. "ALL" phones did not have that issue to the extent it caused problems, so you cannot say it existed on all phones when talking about the problemetic form of it.

2. The problem DID exist on the iPhone 4. Problem being that the attenuation issue was so bad it caused reception issues and dropped called depending on how you held the phone.

When you have this issue and it is exacerbated by the natural way people hold your phone then you have a problem. This WAS a problem that some phones had and the iPhone 4 had in abundance. It WAS a problem and WAS fixed in later iterations of the iPhone4's.

Stop being jackass. You are wrong in your assertion that all phones had a problem. All phones in the 2009/2010 era and prior did NOT have this problem.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/13, Rating: -1
RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 11:10:49 AM , Rating: 2
I don't understand where you are coming from or what impression you get when you mis-read everything others say and then post against it.

#1, I don't hate Apple. I said it was an issue and they handled it in an arrogant way with the "you are holding it wrong" comment. You went all sorts of sideways at that comment. You have done this before. You take one comment and pigeon hole the person that made it as if it was their life's philosophy. Sorry, I am more dynamic than that. I like Apple for thier contributions and I dislike them for thier arrogance and politics. What of it? What I said above is a fact. Steve Jobs did say that about the issue, while his engineers got busy and fixed it. It was an arrogant thing to say. I personally commend Apple for their contributions to the industry and thank them for the iPhone. It was leaps and bounds better than anything else on the market at the time and it literally forced everyone else to raise their games. We all benefit from that. We all benefit from their push on higher resolutions too. thanks again Apple. Does that sound like something an Apple hater would say? Like anything else, they do some good and some bad moves. Overall, a good force in the industry. I can say I don't like Steve Jobs crappy comment and I don't like Apple's ridiculously hippo-critical lawsuits. That doesn't make me a hater, it makes me observant and human and very normal in that regard. Any normal person would look at that and agree. Only a nut would get all bent about it and fgeel some strange need to defend a company.

#2. I never said it was "universal problem with all iPhone 4s" just that it was a problem and they fixed it. Again, you got bent at the mere assertion that it was a problem. Sorry again, it was a problem and that is a fact.


RE: Glad to see it
By MartyLK on 1/3/2013 11:35:48 AM , Rating: 1
This is where my last post was meant to go. But somehow it got misplaced to another poster's comment.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c165/MartyLK/Pos...


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 11:43:13 AM , Rating: 3
Then we mainly agree other than the part about how Apple is being "stolen" from.

I would argue that Apple "stealing" the whole smartphone idea from Palm and RIMM was far more ofa major theft than Samsung "stealing" rounded corners, packaging material and slide to unlock (by the way Apple "stole" that too). If you see both sides so well, you need to focus that razor sharp sense of yours on Apple too eh?

Whatever though. I am done with your nonsense.


RE: Glad to see it
By Cheesew1z69 on 1/3/2013 11:07:32 AM , Rating: 1
Time to quit feeding the troll...I have wrote a few responses to his bullshit but stopped. Not worth it.


RE: Glad to see it
By retrospooty on 1/3/2013 11:38:10 AM , Rating: 2
You are right... Freegin rediculous.

I keep arguing past the point. I should be more like you and keep it short and simple instead of posting lengthy explanations. "Your a complete idiot" would have sufficed several posts ago LOL.


RE: Glad to see it
By Cheesew1z69 on 1/3/2013 11:40:29 AM , Rating: 2
Yes it would have ;)


RE: Glad to see it
By nafhan on 1/3/2013 10:29:29 AM , Rating: 2
20dB off of a good signal = no problem/not noticeable. 20dB off of a poor signal (might) = lost connection. You not noticing the problem when you tried it with your brothers phone = useless example.

Further, it was a design problem that was mostly fixed in the 4S and 5, not a factory defect. So, it wouldn't matter how many phones you tried it on.


RE: Glad to see it
By Andora76 on 1/3/2013 12:18:29 AM , Rating: 2
DT is a blog with their own biases. It's fun to read, but like any other blogs, take what you read with a grain of salt. Keep in mind, when you are "top dog" everyone's eyes are looking..... very closely, and inspecting your every move with a fine-toothed comb. At the end of the day, this antennae issue was not a big problem. Millions of iPhone 4 users today are not having conniptions every time they talk on their phone. When you are Apple any mistake made is amplified simply because you are who you are. The maps issue on the other hand is pathetic.


RE: Glad to see it
By xti on 1/2/2013 8:53:08 PM , Rating: 2
thats marketing i guess? a company cant have emotions is what i am getting at. it just sounds ... dumb for lack of better words.

** shrug **


"This week I got an iPhone. This weekend I got four chargers so I can keep it charged everywhere I go and a land line so I can actually make phone calls." -- Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg











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