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  (Source: bittenandbound.com)
Six seismologists and a government official are being tried for manslaughter for not warning citizens before the L'Aquila earthquake

Seismologists and a government official from Italy are being tried for manslaughter after failing to alert citizens of the 2009 L'Aquila earthquake that killed approximately 300 people.

Those being tried are six seismologists and one government official who did not warn citizens of the L'Aquila earthquake in time, which took place on April 6, 2009. The seismologists are responsible for assessing the risk of an earthquake occurring in a certain area.

But according to the accused, it's not that they purposely didn't warn the people; it's that they couldn't predict the earthquake in order to warn them.

"We're not able to predict earthquakes very well at all," said John Vidale, a Washington State seismologist and a professor at the University of Washington. "One problem is we don't know how much stress it takes to break a fault. Second, we still don't know how much stress is down there. All we can do is measure how the ground is deforming."

Obtaining the measurements of actual stresses is very difficult. Researchers have to drill miles into the fault and place sensors down there, but can only drill in certain areas. For instance, drilling on the San Andreas Fault has been done, but no one has actually measured the stress at depth.

While seismologists are presented with many general challenges as far as earthquake prediction goes, seismologists in the L'Aquila region have it real bad. The problem is that many tectonic processes are active in the area. For example, the Adria micro-plate is subducted under the Apennines from east to west. While this is happening, continental collision between the Africa and Eurasia plates is taking place.

In addition, the L'Aquila region's fault system is more difficult than that of San Andreas because the San Andreas has mainly horizontal strike-slip faults while the L'Aquila region has complex, vertical faults.

While many problems in this region prevented the Italian seismologists from predicting the earthquake, some stated that those six seismologists could have seen it coming because of the earthquake swarms that occurred days before the large one hit.

"We get swarms of earthquakes all the time without a big earthquake," said Vidale. "There was nothing strange about this swarm to suggest a big earthquake."

Vidale also mentioned that other popular ways of predicting an earthquake, such as a large amount of radon gas in the atmosphere from faults days before, are "unreliable." No one has been able to predict an earthquake from atmospheric data, or other supposed earthquake prediction methods like animals having odd behavior.

However, scientists are studying data on past earthquakes as a way of predicting when future earthquakes will occur, but again, this is not a solid system either.

Vidale is offended that these seismologists and the government official are being tried for manslaughter when they couldn't help what happened, and noted that they are "being charged with a crime for telling the truth," and that truth was that there was no evidence pointing to the fact that the upcoming event was dangerous enough to warn the public.

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Those charges are on shaky ground.
By icanhascpu on 5/27/2011 9:03:48 PM , Rating: 5
Awesome way to make sure you are warned in time next time; make it so no one but the desperate and under-qualified take that shitty job in fear of getting slammed with moronic charges if they don't get the word out in time. Its not like they tried to hide the information.




RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Hakuryu on 5/27/2011 11:34:52 PM , Rating: 3
Stupidity, but intriguing. Has a case like this ever been heard before?

It's like blaming the CIA for the 9/11 deaths, because they worked on anti-terrorism and didn't stop it. Impossible to blame them, but might trying to place the blame on them improve their techniques?

I'm sure the reasons for this are not altruistic; probably political, but it is interesting nonetheless.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/28/2011 3:12:02 AM , Rating: 5
Italy also had a law that if a Formula 1 driver died and it was found to be caused by mechanical failure, the mechanic who last worked on it would be charged with manslaughter. That's why they covered up why Ayrton Senna died originally. The welds in his steering column broke and he simply couldn't turn. Even though you can't really "blame" someone for that, they were so scared of this stupid legal system they lied.

I agree that these laws in Italy are just extreme. Hindsight is a poor argument for destroying peoples lives and imprisoning them.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Azethoth on 5/28/11, Rating: 0
By Mitch101 on 5/28/2011 1:05:27 PM , Rating: 2
The Chewbacca Defense is not limited to the United States its a universal argument.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By sleepeeg3 on 5/28/2011 4:20:22 PM , Rating: 2
By Reclaimer77 on 5/28/2011 4:45:39 PM , Rating: 2
Well yes our system totally needs work. However I need more details on this case before I can say it's an unjust verdict. Are they just being blamed, or did they knowingly install a faulty turntable? That's the most important question and I don't see it answered in that link. The criminal negligence charge tells me that there WAS sufficient evidence to prove that they knowingly participated in actions that could have caused an accident.

It's a far cry from blaming people on a natural disaster though.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By amagriva on 5/28/11, Rating: -1
RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/28/2011 6:54:09 PM , Rating: 2
I was not "tossin shit" on Italy. You need to chill, pizano. I just think it's absurd that every time an accident happens, someone MUST be charged with manslaughter. Not even involuntary manslaughter, but straight up manslaughter.

Redneck? Come on, you're taking this way too personal.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By amagriva on 5/28/11, Rating: -1
By JW.C on 5/29/2011 4:05:50 AM , Rating: 2
Uhoh! Someone has their panties in a twist. Just relax and live with the fact that the Italians are screwed up in this case


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By MrBlastman on 5/27/2011 11:56:23 PM , Rating: 5
These charges are an utter pile of crap. I guess when the world is hit by a comet, the Italians will send all their astronomers to the electric chair.

What if space aliens come? What if a volcano erupts? What about a thunderstorm!

It's dangerous to be an Italian. If I were there, I'd move, fast. Quite a scary precedent being set by their government.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By CZroe on 5/28/2011 1:33:34 AM , Rating: 2
I *would* expect them to see a comet coming. ;)


By PrinceGaz on 5/28/2011 1:05:35 PM , Rating: 2
Comets are all but invisible small lumps of ice (not necessarily water-ice) until they are close enough to the sun to warm sufficiently for that ice to start evaporating and form the comet tail which makes it much more visible.

Given that many comets come from far beyond the orbit of Neptune and have never been seen in the history of civilsation, there could be one right now on a collision course with Earth just weeks away we know nothing about.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By garidan on 5/28/2011 2:45:48 AM , Rating: 4
I'm italian.
They are charged not because they didn't forecast the Big One, but because they were asked if there was a danger and they said NO.
They should have said "I have not the least idea of what is coming".
These people are member of a commission for risk assessment, they are paid by our Government to do this.
If they can not preview risk, just say that.
As for now, they are not guilty but only under judgment.
The attorney just says that if they didn't tell people "there's no risk" perhaps some more people would have escaped from their houses at the first earthquake and stay in open air all night.
Instead, many people went back in their homes and when after few hours came the second, big earthquake it was too late to quit.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By stevend on 5/28/2011 5:30:49 AM , Rating: 2
Hindsight, it's a wonderful thing.

And I am also curious, considering that, like it says in the article, you have little to no information, how exactly did your government expect them to predict earthquakes.
I find it hard to believe that your government actually expected them to predict anything.
Applying a scientific method actually implies doing the legwork and discerning patterns in the information you get. If there are no patterns to be discerned, than you can't say anything for sure.

Now, if you want to know something about the unpredictable future I hear God is the person you go to for that.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By FITCamaro on 5/28/2011 12:23:48 PM , Rating: 5
Save us Captain Hindsight!!!


By YashBudini on 5/30/2011 9:42:24 PM , Rating: 1
Jeeze so many clueless fanboys. Apparently this site is run by a bunch of 28 year olds like yourself.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By FaaR on 5/28/2011 11:08:55 AM , Rating: 2
"If they can not preview risk, just say that."
You Italians need to get yourselves some brains. Virtually your entire country is earthquake-prone territory, surely you can figure out for yourselves if you ask a seismologist (or whatever) if there's a risk for a quake and you get "no" in return, then the person means there's no greater risk than usual, or no particular reason to expect a quake at the moment.

Or can't you do deductive reasoning in your country?

Anyway, I hope all of science boycotts Italy, and that everybody working in earthquake prediction over there quits and leaves for a country where the people show a bit more gratitude for their efforts. Serves you right.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/28/2011 12:26:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You Italians need to get yourselves some brains.


Hey heeey whooa there buddy :) I'm Italian, Italian American. We have plenty of brains, we helped build this country and spilled blood for it.

Just, apparently, our native brethren have had their minds soaked by generations of socialism. This is exactly symptomatic of the kind of lack of accountability, anti-intelligence and ass covering that those kind of governments breed. It trickles down to the entire population and becomes part of the cultural scenery.

Look in the mirror America, this could be us very soon.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Murloc on 5/28/11, Rating: 0
By Reclaimer77 on 5/28/2011 4:39:13 PM , Rating: 1
Nice try, but there is only ONE place where power flows up from the people to the Government. And that was the United States. Of course that stopped being the case 60 or so years ago. But everywhere else, it's the opposite.

And, of course, I take complete offense to your racist characterization of our culture and our "traits".


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By PaterPelligrino on 5/28/2011 5:15:27 PM , Rating: 5
Italian justice is so arbitrary, the rich and powerful so above the law, that the ordinary citizen always sees himself as helpless and the victim. At the same time everyone is obsessed with his own rights to the detriment of everyone else, no one ever admits to being at fault for anything, and distrust of the gov't is much deeper than anything even the most rabid Tea Party, anti-gov't guy would consider rational. (There is, of course, a couple thousand years of unique historical experience behind those attitudes.)

Compare the Italian legal system with its counterpart in many Northern European countries where justice is relatively swift, impartial and efficient - I doubt any Italian would use those adjectives to describe his own legal system.

The interesting thing in this for me is how social structure is influenced by national character. The Italians are a highly interesting and idiosyncratic people, very intelligent and creative - one has only to see how successful Italians can be when they go abroad to seek employment opportunities not available at home - but are prisoners of a very rigid - feudal in some ways - social structure that while nourishing their cultural uniqueness, also stifles individual opportunity and a sense of being an equal member with full rights in the larger society. The Italian is always demanding to be treated fairly while thoroughly convinced that society will never be fair.

This results in a lack of trust in and willingness to submit to the larger legal and bureaucratic system that characterizes the citizens of Northern European countries like Switzerland, Denmark, Germany, etc. Italians are very much more 'me against the oppressive powers that be' rather than Northern-European civic-minded. This attitude is, of course, self-fulfilling: it's dumb to practice patience and deference to the greater good in a society where everyone is prepared to break the rules to advance the interests of self, family and friends. You can cross the road in Germany on a green light with your eyes closed, in Italy it would be suicide. When I was living in Italy, I was amazed at how common hit-and-run driver (pirata della strada) incidents were.

Because everything is considered rigged in someone else's favor, the Italian admires the guy who bends the rules to get what he wants. The Italian word 'furbo' - meaning cunning and sly - is always used with admiration. You read accounts in newspapers of some economic crime or robbery and there is always this undercurrent of "bravo, sei furbo, ben fatto."

What I have written above is, of course, a sketch painted with very broad strokes. Most Italians are very kind, decent people. Not everyone breaks the rules, and there are many civic-minded Italians. But the above does give a general understanding of some of the characteristics that distinguish Italy from other countries.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/28/11, Rating: -1
RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Targon on 5/28/11, Rating: 0
RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/29/11, Rating: -1
RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By PaterPelligrino on 5/29/2011 10:29:53 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Sorry but once you give the elite ruling class a certain amount of power, you have only proven to them they can start taking more and more and more of it. Look at America and the things that have happened over the past decade.


How ironic. You eliminate all social engineering and wealth distribution from society, as the free-market fundamentalists want, and out goes equality, the level playing field, and any pretense of meritocracy.

Even the free-market fanboys at The Economist - hardly an advocate of anything remotely socialist - have gone on record lamenting the disappearance of meritocracy in America. Whatever happened to the belief that any American could get to the top? http://www.economist.com/node/3518560 You might want to check it out, if by any chance you're one of the few conservatives who bothers to read dissenting opinions.

When Tea Party Godfather and billionaire David Koch ran for vice president on the Libertarian ticket in 1980, he called for the elimination of Social Security, all regulatory agencies, welfare, public schools, unemployment insurance and public health care. That's not a society in which any one but the uber-rich would enjoy living. That is, unless you're into hereditary poverty and class warfare. You guys seem to be unaware that Marxism and it's derivative Communism owe their very existence to the the excesses of the unregulated free market. You should maybe check out the 19th century.

A little knowledge of economic history and the real world would show you why all existing capitalist societies choose to temper dog-eat-dog capitalism with socialist policies: pure laissez-faire capitalism has proven itself as impractical as pure socialism. The real problem is finding the proper mix of the two.

Tea Party wing-nuts go on and on about creeping socialism in the United States, but "an increasing share of national income has gone to the top 1 percent of earners since the 1970s, when their share was 8 percent to 9 percent. In 2005, it passed 21 percent. By 2007, the last year for which complete data are available, the richest 1 percent were taking more than 23 percent of all national income. The richest one-tenth of 1 percent, representing just 13,000 households, took in more than 11 percent of total income in 2007."

Does that sound like a country on the path to socialism? What I see are the real powers behind the Conservative movement orchestrating all this hysteria about encroaching socialism with the left hand, while they rake in an ever increasing share of national wealth with the right. Welcome to the Democratic Socialist Republic of America.

Far from socialism, this is 3rd-world stuff, unheard of in any other developed democracy. Shite like this has consequences. There have been lots of studies linking perceived social inequality with unhappiness. Is it any wonder there is so much social discontent in the US? Teabaggers have been duped into supporting policies that help the rich and harm everybody else.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/29/11, Rating: 0
RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By PaterPelligrino on 5/29/2011 11:59:39 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Your premise that because we have rich people means we cannot have socialism is just childish. Besides, how many of that top 1% owe their wealth directly because of the government? Statistics without breakdown are meaningless.


A society where a tiny minority monopolizes all wealth - and increasingly so - is by definition not socialist. And if you haven't been paying attention, note that the Republicans have taken it as their number one priority to insure that that wealth becomes hereditary; i.e., meritocracy is for the poor, so get out of my rich face.

quote:
You sound like a typical Liberal, sir. Using the same old class warfare arguments to make your point. And I love how anytime someone voices any trepidation about government power, we're accused of wanting laissez-faire!


More right-wing propaganda. It is precisely the right that is waging class warfare: not only is more and more wealth becoming concentrated in few and fewer hands, the middle class is making no economic progress at all, is, in fact, finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.

In any case, if you don't advocate pure laissez-faire capitalism, and fear an all-powerful gov't, then we are not that far apart in our positions. In which case, it'd be really nice to hear you say that you do recognize the necessity of "limited socialism".


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/29/11, Rating: 0
By PaterPelligrino on 5/30/2011 4:11:22 AM , Rating: 5
The simple-minded reduction of all political debate to a supposed conflict between evil socialism and good capitalism is a distortion, a falsification that makes it impossible to agree on viable solutions to pressing political problems. This demonizing of the political opposition has meant that in the States, instead of engaging the opposition in a frank and fruitful dialog, we have allowed ourselves to become bogged down in a bogus religious struggle of good versus evil that only serves to further the selfish agenda of partisan politicians and hidden vested interests.

It's as if child psychologists divided themselves into two camps, one advocating discipline and the other love as the proper way to raise a child. Public policy – life itself - is difficult and messy because rather than an easy choice between good and evil, we must invariably choose between competing versions of the good. Life isn't a cartoon painted in two colors. How much simpler everything would be if it were.

But then, in societies where power is obtained through the ballot box, the incentive is not to talk sense or do the right thing, but to get elected, and demonizing the competition works in America. It is interesting that democracy thus inevitably encourages political mendacity, the level of falsehood only checked by the intelligence of the electorate and the oversight of the free press. Unfortunately, the average American is not the brightest bulb in the room. How else to explain how our politicians are applauded for blatant distortions of the truth?

Take the misrepresentation of Europe in American political debate: there are no socialist countries in Europe; they are all, without exception, capitalist economies tempered with varying degrees of socialist policy, just as in the States. However, you'd never know that from the rhetoric issuing from the right where all one has to do is sneer 'Frenchie' to get the faithful howling.

There are good reasons why there exist no pure laissez-faire capitalist economies and no purely socialist ones: history has shown that neither works. There would be no Marxism if it had not been for the excesses of unregulated capitalism. Child labor laws were first passed in libertarian England - I think Dickens' novels were influential in that decision - because children really did work 16 hours/day in sweat shops for room and board.

Therefore, since every existing society is a de facto socialist-capitalist hybrid, it would be far more constructive if people would stop demonizing the other camp; and let's be fair here, tho there are serious people on the right who want to do away with all vestiges of social policy, no one on the left disputes the primacy of capitalism. That the right's demonizing of socialism is disingenuous is evidenced by all these Tea Party people who when pinned down refuse to give up Medicaid, Social Security and all the rest.

The American hatred of socialism is a primarily a holdover from the cold war when we were locked in a battle for world supremacy with the hated Commies. That life-death struggle distorted our understanding of the meaning of the underlying social issues. The Soviet Union no more defined socialism than contemporary Russia defines capitalism.

The debate should be on what kind of society we want to be and what political/economic policies are required to get there. Every serious politician knows this, but ramps up the religious rhetoric to further partisan ends. Does anybody on the right really think US assembly lines should be manned by 9 yr-olds, or poor accident victims denied emergency medical care? Of course not; so even the most die-hard conservative is, in fact, advocating some kind of limited socialism. That's all socialism means in modern societies, the tempering of capitalist excess with concern for the disenfranchised. (And that is not just moral affectation, 'let them eat cake' societies are not happy places.) The real political debate should be about how to structure society so as to provide a proper balance of the two.

This may seem obvious, but rhetoric matters, the emotions stirred up by empty slogans always get in the way of rational analysis and useful solutions. Extreme language is always used to dupe the gullible into supporting policies designed to further someone else's interests.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By PaterPelligrino on 5/29/2011 2:09:02 AM , Rating: 5
Reclaimer77 writes,

quote:
Good. Society is best served by everyone working for the betterment of themselves. Collectivism, in all forms, is evil in my opinion and only drags a people down in the long run. You cannot bring people up who aren't willing to do it for themselves.

Individualism works, socialism doesn't.


I didn't write what I did about Italy as a sly way of advancing my own political agenda. I was merely reporting my own experience.

However, to deal with your reply. That simple-minded Ayn Rand stuff is more a statement of belief, the staking out of an unbending ideological position, than a thoughtful conclusion based on an examination of how real people function in real societies.

Individualism is fine, but when no one is willing to submit to larger social norms, the result is chaos and universal cynicism and distrust. You really want to live in a society where the only time people obey the law is when a cop is standing there? You think driving away from an old woman you've just run over is OK because it's best for you? I find that you guys are often religious; to be consistent, wouldn't you have to admit that submitting to Christian dictates is religious socialism?

There has been a lot of work down showing that the average wealth of a citizen is less important in determining happiness than the perception that society is fair.

Without getting into a long drawn-out ideological debate, which will never convince anyone from the opposite camp anyway, let me give the following example. When I lived in Taiwan in the 70's, traffic in Taipei was absolutely chaotic, nobody followed the traffic laws, everyone ran lights, it was pure 'everyman for himself and only the dumb obey the rules'. As a result, in spite of the fact that there weren't that many cars on the road, a trip across town was agonizingly slow; there was always a snarl of cars blocking each intersection because of people running the light and getting trapped there.

Trips to Tokyo provided an interesting contrast. Though traffic density was much higher, travel from A to B was much more rapid than in Taipei because everybody followed the rules and traffic flowed unimpeded. Taipei was an ear-splitting din of blaring horns all screaming me, me, me, while in Tokyo you never heard a horn.

The problem with you guys is that you evaluate everything according to a one-dimensional, black-and-white paradigm where there are only two choices: either it's freedom-loving, God-fearing Americans doing wtf they want because selfishness is good - all based on a misreading of Adam Smith who never advocated such an approach; or it's wretches enslaved by communist dictatorships without a thought of their own in their brainwashed heads. Life isn't that simple.

Of course, maintaining absolute conviction in reductive world-views is easy if you don't travel - the easiest way to deal with contradictory experience is never see it in the first place.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/29/2011 8:49:52 AM , Rating: 1
Way too long winded imo.

But you know my post was NOT meant to advocate law breaking behavior or running people over. Give me a break. I was NOT promoting anarchy and you know it.

quote:
I find that you guys are often religious


Nope, wrong again.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By PaterPelligrino on 5/29/2011 11:27:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
But you know my post was NOT meant to advocate law breaking behavior or running people over. Give me a break. I was NOT promoting anarchy and you know it.


But when I wrote,

quote:
Italians are very much more 'me against the oppressive powers that be' rather than Northern-European civic-minded. This attitude is, of course, self-fulfilling: it's dumb to practice patience and deference to the greater good in a society where everyone is prepared to break the rules to advance the interests of self, family and friends.


you chose to quote that paragraph in full and object,

quote:
Good. Society is best served by everyone working for the betterment of themselves.


So is "practicing patience and deference to the greater good" - i.e., following the law - dumb or not?

Laws, which are meant to shape human social behavior, are by their very nature socialist. You guys have such a simplistic understanding of the issues. You've memorized a few slogans - 'socialism is bad' - and think parroting those phrases constitutes intelligent reflection. There is not and can never be a functioning society that does not strive to conform human behavior, including economic behavior, to pre-established desirable norms via social engineering.

quote:
Nope, wrong again.


Maybe in your case, but I was making a statement about conservatives in general - note the use of the plural "you guys". And since US conservatives are more likely to be religious, I was not wrong.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Reclaimer77 on 5/29/2011 11:54:13 AM , Rating: 1
You know what, you are just REALLY condescending. Did you know that? I don't see a point in debating with someone who's assured himself that he's so much better than me.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By PaterPelligrino on 5/29/2011 12:11:50 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I know that I can be difficult to argue with. But I do always try to offer support for my reasoning.

As far as being better than you, I take to heart this quote from George Orwell,

quote:
A man who gives a good account of himself is probably lying, since any life when viewed from the inside is simply a series of defeats.


I'm far too old to have any illusions about my own self-worth.


By AssBall on 5/29/2011 1:00:29 PM , Rating: 2
Well it sounds like you have a pretty good grasp about how everyone around you totally sucks...


By ekv on 6/2/2011 1:39:01 AM , Rating: 2
Pater lives on condescension. He's disappointed you didn't bite on the religious angle -- Dawkins acolyte that he is. Nevertheless, he can carry on the conversation w/o you...


By SPOOFE on 5/28/2011 3:40:37 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I'm Italian, Italian American. We have plenty of brains, we helped build this country and spilled blood for it.

Spilled blood? Like when ya sent Luca Brasi to sleep with the fishes?


By Targon on 5/28/2011 10:30:35 PM , Rating: 2
So what you are saying is that because there is a 1 in 25 quadrillion chance of something happening, everyone MUST say that an earthquake could happen anywhere, and under Italian law, every person working in some field of Science in Italy must say up front that there is a minute chance that by turning on the light switch in their office, the planet might explode?


By amagriva on 5/28/2011 6:37:13 PM , Rating: 2
Just to let you know that we don't live in caves: The point it is not that they are charged for not having predicted an earthquake. After all Italy has the highest seismic risk in the area and also kids know that is impossible to predict earthquakes. They are in hot water because there has been always increasing tremors and foreshocks and they downplayed the thing with the civil protection agency that was on alarm telling them No Problem! Go back home to sleep (stone medieval houses) Let the ambulances go back to the hospitals! And so on. The FEMA equivalent center was closed the night that the quake came and people that the night before has sleeped in the car or in tents for their "No Problem" attitude has died by the hundreds. But as you say I'm Italian so I'd move to ...MMhhh. New Orleans! Jazz, brothels and cheap houses too...A tad of moisture maybe...But the FEMA people in the Katrina aftermath didn't deserve a little time to serve in jail? No? Sorry I'm Italian we like to slam innocents in jail (here's to you Nicola and Bart)


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By PaterPelligrino on 5/28/2011 2:52:29 AM , Rating: 4
I lived in Rome for 4 years; the Italians are wonderful people, but odd in many ways. They are not entirely modern, no one really trusts anyone except close friends and family. No Italian ever admits to error in anything.

The Italian legal system, in particular, is notorious throughout the EU. Trials can take decades; there is a backlog of many millions of cases; it's very difficult to convict anyone of anything, but when convicted, guilty verdicts are usually overturned; the judges have immense power to initiate and micro-manage investigations; politics is always present at every level of a criminal investigation, and personality triumphs legal integrity at every stage of the process.

This case against the seismologists is entirely political theater and will never lead to a conviction.


By RedemptionAD on 5/31/2011 7:25:17 AM , Rating: 2
I am 25% Italian. Italians aren't all bad, just don't stand too close to one when they are talking or you might get backhanded on accident. As far as the charges, yes, they are ludacris. It's like suing a psychic because your prediction didn't happen just the way they said. Weathermen, Sesimologists, Psychologists, or even Dr.s for that matter are guestimating and forecasting based on a limited range of what they know or are told, none of it is 100% proven, hence malpractice cases, misdiagnosis, hurricanes instead of thunderstorms, general michigan weather. Trials for reasoning of political theatre are as wateful as a lawsuit for people suing McDonalds for making them fat, they serve no real purpose. As far as the government debate goes, There is no such thing as pure capitalist, pure socialist, or pure communist governments. They all have elements of the other types weaved into them. The ideal government situational balance as history has shown is as close to pure capitalism as possible with a small national government to oversee the businesses and general populace with things like police, military, firefighters, and as little else as possible. The general rule of thumb that I have calculated through looking at historical record is that government spending should be no larger than 20% of a countries GDP. (Note: USA's is at 41% of GDP as of 2010)


By snakeInTheGrass on 5/28/2011 8:45:52 AM , Rating: 2
Not that it makes any sense to try them for not knowing, but "Awesome way to make sure you are warned in time next time"???

Has there been an effective earthquake warning that I'm not aware of? We're not talking tsunami warning here, but an actual quake. Uh... right, they say they don't know. I'd suggest they maybe stop asking these guys in general - I'll save them the money and make something up myself if they're interested. Hey, San Fran could see a major quake in the next couple of years. Whew, that was tough.


RE: Those charges are on shaky ground.
By Saldrin on 5/28/2011 9:36:21 AM , Rating: 2
I'd hate to be a weatherman in Italy.


By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/28/2011 9:45:27 AM , Rating: 2
Can we send Al Roker to Italy?


By AssBall on 5/28/2011 3:23:21 PM , Rating: 2
No kidding!


Stupidity
By Alexstarfire on 5/27/2011 11:20:37 PM , Rating: 3
IDK whether it's just these types of stories are the only ones that get posted but it seems like every other day there is yet another reason to lose faith in humanity. I've rarely seen this level of moronic behavior before. How can people honestly be this dumb? Idiocracy is coming true.... I just know it.




RE: Stupidity
By ekv on 5/28/2011 6:26:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Idiocracy is coming true
Judges can be dense. Perhaps the following quote from Richard M. Weaver may apply

Nothing good can come if the will is wrong. To give evidence to him who loves not the truth is only to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation.

(Somewhat prophetic considering it was written in 1948).


RE: Stupidity
By Murloc on 5/28/2011 2:44:42 PM , Rating: 3
I live close to the italian border and have lots of cultural contact with italy since we share the language.
This sort of stuff happens all the time.
I know many italians over the internet and see their news.

I have lost any faith in Italy. The EU is actually a good thing for them because it enforces the government to stop the dumbassery.
Lots of people are like the people in idiocracy.

Just look at the G8 conversation of berlusconi with obama and the endless other scandals.


Only in Europe
By FITCamaro on 5/28/2011 12:22:20 PM , Rating: 1
Would this kind of stupidity be allowed.




RE: Only in Europe
By Murloc on 5/28/2011 2:40:16 PM , Rating: 2
0/10
obvious troll is obvious


RE: Only in Europe
By AssBall on 5/28/2011 3:24:53 PM , Rating: 2
Europeans must also have short memories. Like around 4 minutes...


RE: Only in Europe
By AssBall on 5/28/2011 6:53:04 PM , Rating: 2
FFS I get rated down...

This illustrates my point succinctly:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1927...


sorry
By sprockkets on 5/27/2011 10:00:42 PM , Rating: 4
This is messed up.

Besides, how many times have people been given a warning about pending disasters and pretty much ignore them, then rescue teams have to risk their lives to save their sorry asses (katrina anyone)?




And yet...
By Motoman on 5/28/2011 1:12:25 PM , Rating: 3
...when seismologists do issue warning about an earthquake *possibly* coming out of a sense of prudence, and it doesn't come, they are berated for it.

When you're on or near a fault line, an earthquake should be considered imminent at all times. If you get advance warning, so much the better - but if you don't, that's just the way the crust crumbles.




only in Italy
By Murloc on 5/28/2011 2:32:07 PM , Rating: 1
blame the scientists who can't do miracles, in the meanwhile there is no prosecution of those mafia costruction business people who build abusive houses everywhere, or do stupid stuff like get a cheaper concrete to reduce costs even if it means the building is dangerous without telling the buyer.
Then when there are earthquakes or a small rivers gets too big, lots of shit happens.
The system is corrupt to the bone. And not only in southern italy, in northern italy it's just a different style, it's more classy and subtle, but it's still irresponsible even though less people dies.




RE: only in Italy
By bdunosk on 5/28/2011 7:37:50 PM , Rating: 2
Is it any different than our medical malpractice in this country? Or suing McDonald's when you spill hot coffee on your lap? Etc etc... sometimes bad stuff just happens and it's beyond human control.

People want a witch hunt / payday whenever something bad happens to them, regardless of if someone is really to blame.


what is really happened
By dotpoz on 5/30/2011 4:33:02 AM , Rating: 3
the news is incomplete, i'll try to explain what happened.
Charge someone for not being able to predict earthquakes is stuipd....

Thousand foreshocks hit l'Aquila since december 2008 before the big one (was just a 5,9 Richter) hit the city on 6 April 2009.

The 29 march, Giampaolo Giuliani, a technicia of national astrofisic laboratory who for personal interset was studing corelation of radon emission ad earthquakes allerted the major of sulmon a(50km from l'aquila) because radon levels was showiwin an imminet big earthquake. There was no earthquake that day and the major reported him to police for "causing fear" among population. (Guliani also say that the night of the of the earthquake he saw hig radon level but he warned jus family and friends because he was alredy reported to the police.)

meanwhile the news of the radon levles spread out and 31 march 2009 a committee of seismologists and government officials make an official declaration: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RISK.

Prosecutors also found that the transcript of the comitee was forged and wrote AFTER the earthquake. The point is that you can't predict earthquakes. That mean tha you can't say that on a particulart day there is 0% chance of an earthquake. For that and for the forged transcrtip they are beeing tried.




Facepalm
By PReiger99 on 5/27/2011 11:42:27 PM , Rating: 2
I guess Italy wants their seismologists to regularly go to the nearest city main square and announce an impending disaster, just to be on the safe side of their absurd application of the law...




It was clearly their fault.
By Chocolate Pi on 5/28/2011 4:10:21 PM , Rating: 2
I mean, look at the map for crying out loud, this fault is definitely under their research jurisdiction.

That's the definition of manslaughter, right? If someone dies, and it's your fault...




Send in the clowns
By overlandpark4me on 5/28/2011 8:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
So when under qualified people come in, predict an earthquake that doesn't happen, will they go to jail for hurting the tourism because they were scared off. How about the panic caused by their prediction. How these idiots can hold them accountable is laughable. Seismologists predict earthquakes in 50-100 year terms. Look up Jim Berkland, who guessed correctly about the Northridge quake, but screwed all of the rest up. He said, "anyone that tells you that you cannot predict earthquakes, they don’t know what they are talking about. He is the same guy that predicted "the big one" was going to happen last March. What does it matter the earth is ending on May......Hey, what was that date?




The news is too short and misleading
By ubilog on 5/30/2011 12:09:25 PM , Rating: 2
I posted a lenghty text but DailyTech failed someway, so... if you have a way to read Italian, may you should read this first:

http://oggiscienza.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/terrem...

Provided that the seismologits almost certainly will not be condemned, there is a lot more in the accusation that is not taken into account, icluding at least the following facts:
- in a just-1-hour meeting, the people involved met and decided what to tell the population, some in particular have been stupidly optimistic in the interviews (if "you cannot know", why are you so optimistic)? Official and informal communications were quite far from the concept of "we cannot predict"
- the meeting was held explicitely for the purpose and, according to some source, the quality of the data and the way it has been evaluated were careless to say the least
- there is a Ministry deeply involved in the story which recently has been the centre of strong criticism for quite a lot of reasons... and could tell a couple of things I heard before the earthquake just about the specific issue of seismic monitoring and that Ministry...
- ...last but not least, why are these high-ranking people paid for such meetings if nothing can come out of them?
- if you know about the Italian, you should know that the magistrate has the legal duty to investigate any time he's got "news of a crime", or he can be incriminated himself




The news is too short and misleading
By ubilog on 5/30/2011 12:09:43 PM , Rating: 2
I posted a lenghty text but DailyTech failed someway, so... if you have a way to read Italian, may you should read this first:

http://oggiscienza.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/terrem...

Provided that the seismologits almost certainly will not be condemned, there is a lot more in the accusation that is not taken into account, icluding at least the following facts:
- in a just-1-hour meeting, the people involved met and decided what to tell the population, some in particular have been stupidly optimistic in the interviews (if "you cannot know", why are you so optimistic)? Official and informal communications were quite far from the concept of "we cannot predict"
- the meeting was held explicitely for the purpose and, according to some source, the quality of the data and the way it has been evaluated were careless to say the least
- there is a Ministry deeply involved in the story which recently has been the centre of strong criticism for quite a lot of reasons... and could tell a couple of things I heard before the earthquake just about the specific issue of seismic monitoring and that Ministry...
- ...last but not least, why are these high-ranking people paid for such meetings if nothing can come out of them?
- if you know about the Italian, you should know that the magistrate has the legal duty to investigate any time he's got "news of a crime", or he can be incriminated himself




By Galcobar on 5/31/2011 1:39:57 AM , Rating: 2
Oddly, Italian authorities prosecuted a seismologist for predicting this very quake. Seismologist Giocchino Giuliani believed he knew an earthquake was coming so strongly, he had vans broadcasting warnings in the streets of the town of Onna.

He was then prosecuted for inciting panic.

A month later, the 6.2 earthquake killed 228 in the area, and destroyed Onna, which was largely a collection of medieval buildings.

http://www.geek.com/articles/news/technology-ignor...

He claims that rising levels of radon gas were sufficient to forecast the earthquake. Most scientists will tell you that accurate earthquake predictions is akin to the lottery -- eventually someone's going to guess right, particularly in an earthquake-prone region such as L'Aquia.

So in sum: a seismologist who predicted the earthquake is prosecuted for inciting panic, while seismologists who did not predict are prosecuted for manslaughter.




So what he's saying is...
By wordsworm on 5/27/11, Rating: 0
"It's okay. The scenarios aren't that clear. But it's good looking. [Steve Jobs] does good design, and [the iPad] is absolutely a good example of that." -- Bill Gates on the Apple iPad











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