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Iran's first nuclear power plant has suffered a serious cyber-intrusion from a sophisticated worm that infected workers' computers, and potentially plant systems.  (Source: AP)

The worm has spread to over 10,000 computers in Indonesia. Computers in the U.S. have also been infected.  (Source: Digitrain)
Attack has since spread to plants and computers in the U.S. and elsewhere, posing serious threat

It's been only a month since the activation of Iran's first nuclear power plant and there's already a major crisis concerning proliferation.  But this crisis has nothing to do with nuclear arms proliferation.  Rather, the scare has to do with the proliferation of the Stuxnet worm, a malicious computer program that has invaded the plant's computers and since spread to computers worldwide.

The viral program is very sophisticated and appears designed specifically to attack the plant.  It first was released onto workers' computers, designed to try to reach plant's control systems.  Unlike other more sophisticated attacks which appeared to be primarily geared for monitoring, this attack was designed to do damage.  It contained logic to sabotage nuclear fuel enrichment centrifuges.  The centrifuges, made by German equipment electronics giant Siemens, would be made to fail in a virtually unnoticeable way.

The Bushehr plant is located near Natanz, central-Iranian city located almost 200 miles south of the capital city of Tehran.  The plant is a joint endeavor between Iran and Russia.  While the U.S. and others have chastised Russia for its involvement, the U.S. intelligence community has asserted that it doesn't believe Iran to be currently developing nuclear weapons at the facility.

Mahmoud Jafari, project manager at the Bushehr nuclear plant is quoted in 
The Telegraph, a UK newspaper, as stating that the viral worm never achieved its goal.  Comments Mr. Jafari, "[It] has not caused any damage to major systems of the plant."

But according to international whistle-blower site 
Wikileaks, a serious nuclear accident occurred at the plant sometime before mid-June.  The site's founder, Julian Assange, wrote:

Two weeks ago, a source associated with Iran's nuclear program confidentially told WikiLeaks of a serious, recent, nuclear accident at Natanz. Natanz is the primary location of Iran's nuclear enrichment program.
WikiLeaks had reason to believe the source was credible however contact with this source was lost.
WikiLeaks would not normally mention such an incident without additional confirmation, however according to Iranian media and the BBC, today the head of Iran's Atomic Energy Organization, Gholam Reza Aghazadeh, has resigned under mysterious circumstances. According to these reports, the resignation was tendered around 20 days ago.

Inspectors examined the claims, but found no distinguishable traces of an accident.

A time stamp on the virus reveals that it was made in January.  What is equally remarkable to its sophistication in terms of attack behavior is the lack of sophistication when it comes to the worm's proliferation.  

If it had constrained its infections to Bushehr, it would likely not have been noticed for some time.  Instead, the worm was extremely aggressive in its infection vectors, spreading to fifteen other Siemens plants, and tens of thousands of non-plant computers worldwide.  In Iran 60,000 computers are infected.  In Indonesia, 10,000 machines are infected.  And in the United States thousands of computers are believed to be infected as well.

That creates a dangerous situation, as numerous parties, including international governments and black-hat hackers, are racing to reverse-engineer the code and exploit the infected machines.  The infected machines may not only compromise personal details, but may compromise industrial infrastructure in Iran, Indonesia, India (another infection site), and the U.S.

Melissa Hathaway, a former United States national cybersecurity coordinator, comments, "Proliferation is a real problem, and no country is prepared to deal with it.  All of these guys are scared to death. We have about 90 days to fix this before some hacker begins using it."

So who is behind the attacks?  
The New York Times quotes a former U.S. intelligence office as saying that the attack was the work of Israel’s equivalent of America’s National Security Agency, known as Unit 8200.  According to IEEE Spectrum's December issue, Israel had previously used a cyber-attack to shut off radar systems in Syria, allowing it to evaluate what it believed to be an under-construction nuclear reactor.

Regardless of who perpetrated the attack, the primary issue now is stamping it out, before it can be used for even more nefarious purposes.  Early reports were unclear about the transmission vector, but suggested it may be spreading via USB sticks and other removable media.

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By blueeyesm on 9/27/2010 11:42:14 AM , Rating: 5
Why were these systems connected to the Internet in first place?

RE: Why??
By Chernobyl68 on 9/27/2010 12:22:16 PM , Rating: 2
that's what I'd like to know.

RE: Why??
By plowak on 9/27/2010 2:30:30 PM , Rating: 5
Porn for staff

RE: Why??
By erikejw on 10/2/2010 6:51:21 PM , Rating: 2
"Early reports were unclear about the transmission vector, but suggested it may be spreading via USB sticks and other removable media."

Hmm, seems as the Iranians now will be able to pinpoint those who collaborate with US agencies by tracking the virus path.

RE: Why??
By UnWeave on 9/27/2010 3:30:25 PM , Rating: 2
That's what I was going to ask. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was odd. At first, I assumed they had some form of physical access (e.g. USB stick - still bad, but not as bad). Given the number of other plants which have been infected it seems that, at the very least, the systems are part of a network which is connected to the net, even if there isn't 'direct access' - i.e., you probably can't boot up Firefox for some pr0n from one of them.

But anyway, shouldn't this part of the system be physically isolated from everything else? The hell were they thinking?

RE: Why??
By homebredcorgi on 9/27/2010 4:55:48 PM , Rating: 2
From what I have heard, these computers were not hooked up to the internet. Which means someone would have had to put an infected USB drive into them (or some other similar situation) - further pointing out some glaring security holes in Iran's classified computer networks.

The amazing part is that this code was looking for a specific industrial configuration on the Siemens software to sabotage. It was literally written to target a specific site and specific set of computers. This indicates that whomever wrote the worm obtained access to the designs or even had someone on the inside. Again, given its very targeted attack, it was rather strange how much it proliferated - perhaps the creators did not have someone on the inside and wanted to make sure it spread as quickly as possible?

It has long been speculated that this type of attack could work, but we have never seen one in the wild. Given the sensitive nature of the industrial designs involved it would almost certainly have to be a sovereign state responsible for the worm...interesting times.

RE: Why??
By Lerianis on 9/29/2010 3:23:47 AM , Rating: 2
That is correct, these computers were not connected to the internet and someone would have had to physically come into the building and put an infected USB drive into the computer to infect it.

This doesn't show any 'glaring security holes' in Iran's classified computer networks, considering that the United States has been having a problem with this!

Which, by the way, they have had to backtrack on their 'no external USB hard drive or flash drives!' because a bunch of people, including top brass complained about it making their lives hard.

RE: Why??
By Master Kenobi on 9/29/2010 7:04:14 PM , Rating: 2
Which, by the way, they have had to backtrack on their 'no external USB hard drive or flash drives!' because a bunch of people, including top brass complained about it making their lives hard.


RE: Why??
By monkeyman1140 on 9/29/2010 2:21:47 AM , Rating: 2
It's iran's fault for using pirated software. Perhaps this is the first wave of an antipiracy virus written by Software companies.

RE: Why??
By Shining Arcanine on 9/29/2010 8:49:01 PM , Rating: 2
In order for systems administrators to be able to administrate them remotely.

Here is a new question. Why were these computers running Windows in the first place?

RE: Why??
By Marlonsm on 10/3/2010 10:39:00 AM , Rating: 2
Usually it's easier to find developers for Windows, as well as existing software that runs on Windows.

The question is: Why are those computers with autorun enabled?
Just disable it (I think Windows 7 comes with it disabled by default) and computers will be pretty much safe from virus in USB drives.

Israel = terrorists?
By puffpio on 9/27/2010 12:59:37 PM , Rating: 2
So what I got out of this, is that Israel supports state sponsored terrorism..albeit of the cyber variety.

Someone call the cyberpolice, for they might have backtraced it and the consequences will never be the same.

RE: Israel = terrorists?
By AEvangel on 9/27/2010 2:17:30 PM , Rating: 2
What most people don't remember or choose to forget is that Israel the state was founded using the same terrorism they now condemn.

In fact some in the IRA used to say they learned what they knew by studying the Jews of the mid to late 40's and how they used bombings and assassinations against the British to gain their Freedom.

RE: Israel = terrorists?
By plowak on 9/27/2010 2:34:09 PM , Rating: 3
Right, and the Boston Tea Party was just a Halloween prank.

RE: Israel = terrorists?
By Iaiken on 9/27/2010 4:34:57 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, what he said is correct.

Jewish organizations (specifically Haganah, Irgun and Lehi) engaged in bombings and terror attacks against the British before the idea for a Jewish state had even been fleshed out.

After the British had removed themselves from the situation, they turned on the Arab community using (unsurprisingly) the same methods of attack against civilians as they had used against against professional British soldiers. This along with the UN mandate resulted in civil war and the expulsion of some 250,000+ Arabs from the region.

After the resultant formation of Israel after the civil war, several Arab nations were unable to defeat them in over a year of conventional war. The war was also a convenient excuse to expel another 700,000+ Arabs to make room for the burgeoning population of Jewish immigrants. Many of these immigrants came from Arab lands where they were now faced persecution.

One cannot condemn the actions of one and turn a blind eye to the actions of the other. Both groups are at fault for the mess they now live with and both groups are unwilling to accept that they simply need to live with what they have wrought and move on.

RE: Israel = terrorists?
By Lerianis on 9/29/2010 3:27:13 AM , Rating: 2
[Quote]One cannot condemn the actions of one and turn a blind eye to the actions of the other.[/Quote]

Very true. Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people today who are more than willing to do that because they do not like the things that one group of people or another are doing.

Either we say that terrorist actions (which the actions of our own Founding Fathers in the United States would have fit into) are never acceptable or they are ALWAYS acceptable.

There is no grey here, only black and white, contary to what moral relativists would have you believe.

RE: Israel = terrorists?
By Chillin1248 on 9/27/2010 4:48:44 PM , Rating: 4
I love how people rush to judgement without any evidence.

The only conviction offered in the article is, and I quote:

The New York Times quotes a former U.S. intelligence office as saying that the attack was the work of Israel’s equivalent of America’s National Security Agency, known as Unit 8200

First of all, we have an unnamed "source" being used here, who is supposedly a former intelligence officer.

Second, Unit 8200 is a general intelligence division of the Israeli Defense Forces, they do all the basic stuff, from printing maps to monitoring suspects. But this kind of Cyber-warfare is out of their league and jurisdiction, which again makes me question the "source".


RE: Israel = terrorists?
By Master Kenobi on 9/29/2010 7:15:36 PM , Rating: 2
I find it unlikely that the 8200 had anything to do with this directly, but they could have been tapped for some of the background information on the plant. Still, this sort of thing likely falls under Mossad's area of operations, especially with the USB drive infection method.

The real question at hand.
By Rakanishu on 9/27/2010 11:17:46 AM , Rating: 5
I think the real question at hand is, if Iran were to attack Turkey from the rear would Greece help?

RE: The real question at hand.
By Nfarce on 9/27/2010 11:48:10 AM , Rating: 2
The Greeks have a bad habit of sinking their own ships and ferries due to incompetent captains, so I doubt it.

RE: The real question at hand.
By YashBudini on 9/27/2010 9:17:05 PM , Rating: 2
Are you really in a position to be taking a count of friendly fire fatalities?

RE: The real question at hand.
By Omega215D on 9/27/2010 11:52:38 AM , Rating: 3
Greece would be effective at getting Iran outta there smoothly... =P

If True...
By Goty on 9/27/2010 12:28:22 PM , Rating: 2
If Israel is really behind the worm (somehow I doubt it, this is just finger pointing and name calling), I really can't condemn it, not until Iran is willing to show that its nuclear program is intended only for power generation.

RE: If True...
By PrinceGaz on 9/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: If True...
By conejo99 on 9/27/2010 1:53:18 PM , Rating: 2
After all, when have we known human beings to lie?

RE: If True...
By Goty on 9/27/2010 1:53:59 PM , Rating: 1
So let them prove it. By refusing to prove it, they open themselves to doubt. Personally, I don't trust a country run by a madman who has publicly stated that he wants to wipe an entire people off the face of the Earth.

RE: If True...
By Wulf145 on 9/28/2010 9:35:37 AM , Rating: 2
How can they prove it?

All thier Nuclear materials are being monitored, and none has gone missing - so with what do you think they are building their Bomb?
So far no evidence of an Iranian Nuclear weapons program has been published, only accusations. If you can point me to credible evidence I would be very interested.

RE: If True...
By Ammohunt on 9/27/2010 3:16:13 PM , Rating: 2
Mahmoud did you ask the Mulla if you could use his computer! You know how testy he gets when he sees you have been using his machine!

RE: If True...
By YashBudini on 9/27/2010 9:18:55 PM , Rating: 2
That is good enough for me.

I suppose you don't believe in the Holocaust either.

C-O-N, Spiracy!
By SiliconJon on 9/27/2010 10:49:11 AM , Rating: 3
If Israel and Iran don't quit fighting I'm turning this car around and we're not going to Disney Land.

Sophistcated yet untargeted
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 12:24:03 PM , Rating: 3
I'm skeptical of claimes that if it is at all sophisticated it must have been done by a government agency. It is also highly unlikely that a government would develop such a poorly targeted attack. As for blaming Israel, it is never hard to find someone who wants to blame Isreal for just about anything, and an unnamed person who was reportedly once part of the US Intelligence community is vague enough to be absolutely worthless.

Due to the untargeted nature of the worm and the fact that it gathered information about critical systems, I would think it is far more likely that it was done by either a nation that doesn't concern itself much with pissing off alies such as Russia or China, or even more likely a criminal organization that will seek to sell the information they gather. Criminal organizations have more practical experience with cyber attacks than governments, and less of a desire to target their efforts. They are a better fit.

Gonna cost
By DrApop on 9/27/2010 2:51:39 PM , Rating: 2
So how much is this gonna cost the US government and US business to protect themselves from this malicious worm unleash on all of us from Israel?

the worm isn't just nuclear plant specific....sounds more like a "I wanna F&ck you up if you are any computer" type worm.

Google earth it
By Calabros on 9/28/2010 4:56:30 AM , Rating: 2
The Bushehr plant is located near Natanz, central-Iranian city located almost 200 miles south of the capital city of Tehran

Busheher plant is located near Bushehr city, in south of Iran.. and these two cities (Bushehr/Natanz) should be at least 400 miles far from each other.

By monkeyman1140 on 9/29/2010 2:19:50 AM , Rating: 2
An attack like that could have easily been written to restrict its damage. Sounds like a proof of concept virus that somebody wrote, and somebody else modified it to have a real destructive payload. That's how these things usually come to be.

By xxsk8er101xx on 9/27/10, Rating: 0
Isn't anyone else thinking?
By vectorm12 on 9/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By BZDTemp on 9/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By goku on 9/27/2010 12:18:32 PM , Rating: 2
Curious enough, why would Chernobyl happen in Russia but not somewhere like pakistan or india?

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By omnicronx on 9/27/2010 12:28:48 PM , Rating: 5
Not sure, as it didnt happen in Russia ;)

USSR yes, but Chernobyl is located in what is now Ukraine.

Simply put, reactors are not designed that way anymore. Multiple safety measures are in place, with redundancy being a key point to the safety of these plants.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By foolsgambit11 on 9/27/2010 5:08:54 PM , Rating: 4
I agree that nuclear plants today are by and large safe, and that an accident like Chernobyl is of very minimal risk. However, safety measures alone aren't enough. An corporate (or government) mentality of risk prevention is also key. The redundant systems can be built into the design, but ensuring that they remain online and fully functional requires vigilance. Part of the issue with Chernobyl (aside from faulty design) was ignoring what turned out to be necessary safety measures during a scheduled maintenance shutdown of one of the reactors. Or take a look at the Gulf oil spill earlier this year - safety measures that were required by law were ignored and/or poorly implemented, leading to a catastrophic failure. Or read Richard Feynman's article on how the corporate culture regarding risk management in NASA led to the Challenger disaster.

Engineers can get a design as close to perfect as humanly possible, but that is only the first factor in considering the overall safety of something like a nuclear power plant. It still has to be built and operated within the designed tolerances.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Lerianis on 9/29/2010 3:30:06 AM , Rating: 2
Yep, that is the biggest issue when accidents like Chernobyl or the Gulf oil spill happen..... afterwards, we find out that the proper safety procedures and regulations were NOT being followed.

Yet no heads, save those of lower - middle management ever seem to roll for this stuff nor are the people who condone these things imprisoned like they should be.

Maybe it's time to make ignoring regulations (at least in the instance where very bad things can happen if they are ignored) a CRIMINAL offense, and one that a company can be shut down, seized and sold for!

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Iaiken on 9/27/2010 12:55:27 PM , Rating: 5
Curious enough, why would Chernobyl happen in Russia but not somewhere like pakistan or india?

That is because Indian reactors are all "Douglas Point" CANDU reactor derivatives. These are arguably the safest reactors in the world due to the lack of requirements for moving parts and the ability to "poison" the reactor with a coolant/neutron inhibitor and stop the reaction at any time.

Another reason is that these reactors use natural Uranium and run MUCH cooler and with fewer "hot spots" than light water reactors due to the heavy waters inability to absorb excited neutrons.

Finally, the actual fuel piles cannot go critical without the heavy water medium as it is required to continue the chain reaction. This opens up the ability to simply drain the reactor and stop all criticality using a combination of gravity and reactor pressure.

Lastly, they are HEAVILY bunkered against an interior explosion, which would limit contamination to the plant itself.

You can find out more here:

A key factor in the cause of Chernobyl was the almost exclusive reliance on graphite control rods and enriched uranium. When the fuel pile got too hot, the rods and fuel expanded and prevented the control rods from being removed during the attempted SCRAM.

This spiked the power production which then caused the water to boil off faster than the steam could be evacuated (the turbines had been shut down) and caused the resultant explosion. This cemented the picture of that shattered number 4 reactor building in peoples minds and turned them against all nuclear power plants regardless of design.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Iaiken on 9/27/2010 1:08:13 PM , Rating: 3

A key factor in the cause of Chernobyl was the almost exclusive reliance on graphite-tipped control rods, enriched uranium and a graphite moderator. When the fuel pile got too hot, the rods and fuel expanded and prevented the control rods from being inserted during the attempted SCRAM.

Basically, the lodged graphite tips caused an increase in criticality, which caused the spike.

Sorry for the goof-up.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Iaiken on 9/27/10, Rating: 0
RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By psenechal on 9/27/2010 1:09:55 PM , Rating: 4
Wow...thanks for the awesome description of current nuclear reactor safety systems and design. It's nice to know they're actually NOT trying to blow up the planet =)

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Samus on 9/27/2010 11:21:18 PM , Rating: 3's ridiculous to keep referring to nuclear disasters that occured during the initial implementations of the technology just shortly after using nuclear fuel to generate electricity was discovered.

It's like saying the Ford Model T's crank start system killed thousands when it backfired, and starting a car is still dangerous. Or what were those other cars that exploded in rear-end collisions? Yea, cus that happens all the time, right?

It's like saying flying by aircraft is among the most dangerous ways to travel as it was duing the 1930's, and flying today is still equally as dangerous.

Technology improves, but people never give nuclear technology or advancement any credit for doing so.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By DEVGRU on 9/27/2010 1:59:18 PM , Rating: 3
Curious enough, why would Chernobyl happen in Russia but not somewhere like pakistan or india?

Easy. One word...


By monkeyman1140 on 9/29/2010 2:24:01 AM , Rating: 2
yeah yeah, everybody claims their reactor design is safe. That's why there have been hundreds of accidents over the years, plenty of spills, radioactive releases, and a few explosions.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Chernobyl68 on 9/27/2010 12:20:33 PM , Rating: 2
The Chernobyl accident was a result of departure from test procedues, and magnified by design factors in the plant iteslf. Hopefully nuclear operators worldwide have learned their lessons from that.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Iaiken on 9/27/2010 12:22:10 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't anyone else thinking this is another Chernobyl waiting to happen?

Not really, the technology being so attacked is a gas convection centrifuge which is used to separate natural uranium into fuel grade Uranium through the removal of depleted Uranium.

The process is pretty much cannot result in criticality because the amount of radioactive material involved is so minute.

This particular centrifuge can be used to create weapons grade Uranium by running the refined product through the process numerous times. Similar centrifuges were used by India in conjunction with the CIRUS breeder reactor to kick start the Indian nuclear weapons program through the enrichment of Uranium and Plutonium.

So while the technology is itself safe, it can be used to produce nuclear weapons.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By omnicronx on 9/27/2010 12:22:22 PM , Rating: 2
Nope... The reactor(s) in question are Russian based VVER's (VVER-1000/446), which are very safe.

We learned a lot from Chernobyl, in fact the accident essentially forced all nations to upgrade their existing reactors based on similar design because of the accident.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Hammer1024 on 9/27/2010 1:52:06 PM , Rating: 2
You might want to do a bit of work on what actually happened at Chernobyl: It wasn't the reactor design, it was the idiots doing "testing" while shutting down the reactor. A good clear sequence of events is given at:

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Iaiken on 9/27/2010 3:57:05 PM , Rating: 2
It was both.

The emergency button (AZ-5) was pressed by the operator. Control rods started to enter the core.
The insertion of the rods from the top concentrated all of the reactivity in the bottom of the core.

Reactor power rose to a peak of about 100 times the design value.

If it wasn't for the graphite caps on the end of the control rods, the partially inserted rods would have been sufficient to cease criticality.

Graphite was also the lone neutron moderator in the Chernobyl reactor design. By pressing the AZ-5 in an attempt to SCRAM the reactor the control rods descended at nearly the exact same time at nearly the exact same speed. This caused a thin band of increased criticality in the pile that got progressively worse as the graphite tips descended together. This also increased the temperature of the pile and caused the fuel, moderator and control rods to expand and detach the reactor support plate.

By then there was nothing that could be done to save the reactor as the control rods were stuck only half way down. As support plate shifted, it began to rupture the channel pipes and water escaped into the fuel channel. The thermal shock shattered the fuel piles and the resultant steam exploded upward and outward as there was no containment bunker to stop it from doing so.

Interestingly enough, Chernobyl was not the first RBMK-1000 reactor in which this behavior was observed. For this very reason, there were actually safety protocols as to how many control rods could be out of the reactor at the same time. Another procedure was in place should too many be open and the operator was supposed to manually request them to be inserted in order to stagger their decent into the pile. After the accident, the automated SCRAM unit was redesigned to do this staggering automatically.

By monkeyman1140 on 9/29/2010 2:26:02 AM , Rating: 2
Oh it had a containment system, but the explosion was so huge that it blew the 200 ton lid off the top of the reactor and flipped it a few times before landing back down cockeyed.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By Phoque on 9/27/2010 3:17:51 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't anyone else thinking this is another Chernobyl waiting to happen?

From what I've read here on this forum and about nuclear power plants security in general, no.

I feel their nuclear weapon endeavors are a much greater concern.

RE: Isn't anyone else thinking?
By vectorm12 on 9/29/2010 5:09:51 AM , Rating: 1
I think most people misunderstood my previous post.

I'm in no way suggesting that nuclear power isn't a necessity in today's world and I was not using Chernobyl as an argument against the technology.

Even though as it's already been pointed out that the new reactors are safer and more "fool-proof" than the reactor in chernobyl it doesn't mean accidents can't happen when controlled by insufficiently trained operators.

I'm not really worried about the French or American plants in the sense that they are plants that are heavily monitored by trained personell and overseen by tight government monitoring.

Iran on the other hand has at best a questionable governmental oversight system and are new in this field. Sure they may have the russian's experience to educate them but that doesn't necessarily mean that the reactor is going to be operated within spec. Either with or without knowledge.

After all Chernobyl was a result of poor engineering and poor judgement from the operators. Despite all precautions a country like Iran seems far more likely to cut corners somewhere, maintenance or training if not both.

Again I'm all for nuclear power as we haven't got better alternatives atm but at the same time I can't but feel worried that developing countries are using a technology that can cause serious longtime damage, not to mention the other purposes it can be used for.

cyber warfare = biological warfare
By superPC on 9/27/10, Rating: -1
By Amedean on 9/27/2010 11:34:31 AM , Rating: 2
Ok General........<--- War veteran

By Micronite on 9/27/2010 12:15:47 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, because there were so many less casualties during war before we had nuclear weapons.</sarcasm>
The truth is that war-related deaths went down after nuclear weapons were developed and demonstrated.

Not that I'm all for keeping thousands of warheads around, but I can appreciate the fact that they keep crazy guys afraid.

By Spivonious on 9/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Sigh
By yvizel on 9/27/2010 11:14:33 AM , Rating: 2
That's a dumb question.

RE: Sigh
By Amedean on 9/27/2010 11:41:23 AM , Rating: 2
That's a dumb question.


So I guess what he was saying is to support Iran instead or just stop supporting the Zionists? Israel is a lone forward looking nation in the middle east. Given that everyone wants to kill them with a history to support that view I would understand a covert operation involving a virus and Iran's nuclear research facility. Better than a bomb I suppose....for the time being.

RE: Sigh
By integr8d on 9/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Sigh
By DaveSylvia on 9/27/2010 12:42:52 PM , Rating: 2
I'm glad Israel and the US are allies but lets be realistic, Israel is just as much at fault for perpetuating violence in the region as anyone else. It's rarely about defending their turf as much as it is about preemptive or retaliatory strikes without regard for who might be in the crossfire.

RE: Sigh
By YashBudini on 9/27/2010 9:22:03 PM , Rating: 2
It's rarely about defending their turf as much as it is about preemptive or retaliatory strikes without regard for who might be in the crossfire.

Sounds like our future.

RE: Sigh
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 11:51:54 AM , Rating: 3
What would you have them do? Their enemies purposfully attack civilians, and then hide within the civilian populous. Israel takes great pains to limit civilian casualties, but do you really expect then to allow terrorists to continue to fire rockets at their people and attack their civilians without responding becuase there might be civilians in the same building the terrorists are attacking form, or are operating our of?

The Israeli's aren't the one openly pronouncing they won't stop until Israel is completely wiped off the map and and the Israeli's are vastly outnumbered. If Isreal merely makes a porportional response after they are attacked, their enemies will consider that a victory and continue to throw away lives to reach their goals. They place little value on human life and are willing to sacrifice a great number of their own people to eridacate the Jews. Not merely "take back Palestine", but irradicate Israel from the youngest infant to the oldest retiree.

How in the face of that can they just sit back and let their people be killed while they do nothing?

RE: Sigh
By seraphim1982 on 9/28/2010 4:58:58 PM , Rating: 1
History and Current events is often analyzed in different ways. You say these terrorists hide in the civilians...where else do you expect them to hide, same could be said about the French Resistance, VietCongs, and many more freedom fighters and/or terrorists.

The way I see it, Israel has shits loads of MONEY, TECH, POWER, INFLUENCE, WEAPONS, SUPPLIES, PLACES TO LIVE, yet these people have nothing and hide in civilians. Can you really expect much else from them?? They can't even get supplies brought to them from external sources, please see Floatilla raid. This kind of reminds me of the ghettos that the Jews were put in prior to being sent off to concentration camps. Nothing could get in or out, just enough to live, but no freedom. To me, it seems the victims have now become the aggressor, usually the case with a lot a victims.

Clearly, you are stating the case of the extremists. Why don't you quote that Palenstine doctor who had 2 out of his 3 kids killed in an Israeli attack, yet doesn't vow vengeance. These are the leaders of the world with peace, not people who can't concede anything. He conceded his 2 daughters to give a msg a peace. Israel vs Palestine = 2 kids nerd raging at each other over who's to blame in the an online game. Raging isn't gonna solve shit and this post I'm replying to is exactly why this peace isn't gonna happen. People just blame, without seeing what has happened.

RE: Sigh
By ADoA on 10/4/2010 11:25:06 PM , Rating: 2
I suggest you do some more read-up on the Flotilla to see what it really was about. Just do a search for "flotilla humanitarian motives." While at it, also look up the video "The Humanitarian Crisis of the Gaza Mall." It's very, very sad and depressing.

RE: Sigh
By Spivonious on 9/27/2010 12:51:58 PM , Rating: 3
Israel can do whatever they want to. I just want the U.S. politicians to stop supporting them for the sole goal of getting more jewish votes.

Why should we support a country that comes in with official army bulldozers and knocks down people's homes simply because they are not jewish?

Knocking down a playground...must have been some suicide bombers playing there...

RE: Sigh
By SilverHair on 9/28/2010 1:54:18 PM , Rating: 2
You can always vote out your favorite politican BTW.

Did we not BULLDOZE the American Indian homes down as well. Simply because they were in the way!

So, why do we support our country?

RE: Sigh
By dark matter on 9/27/2010 1:11:45 PM , Rating: 3
How can you honestly claim Israel is a forward looking country when not only is it in breach of many UN resolutions, namely illegal invasion of a country (just because Israel doesn't recognise Palestine's sovereignty doesn't make Palestine any less of country) but the very nation itself was founded under the duress of terrorism. And didn't Israel recently undertake state sanctioned execution using false German and British passports.

Very forward looking.

RE: Sigh
By seraphim1982 on 9/28/2010 5:02:19 PM , Rating: 1
Not to mention their non inclusion of the NPT when it is almost 100% they have a nuke, when everyone is ragging on Iran, who seeking alternative means of power.

RE: Sigh
By UzairH on 9/27/2010 12:41:15 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, a totally dumb question.

Only the Israelis are allowed to have an apertheid system for a large percent of its citizens, and to have nuclear weapons because it is SUCH a responsible state that NEVER intentionally targets civilians such as in the Lebanon war... errr wait...

RE: Sigh
By yvizel on 9/27/2010 5:25:16 PM , Rating: 4
You guys totally got all the facts right.

Whoever makes claims without really hitting an issue is a freaking fool. I guess it's about right for most of you.

What do you really know about Jewish history and about Israel's history?
What do you know about Palestinians and their history?

My guess, not much.

Here are two questions about history you guys can toy around with:
1. What is the meaning of "Palestinian People" and when was it first mentioned in history?
2. How many times does the word "Jerusalem" appear in Quran?

RE: Sigh
By NullSubroutine on 10/1/2010 5:04:38 PM , Rating: 2
random post.

"And boy have we patented it!" -- Steve Jobs, Macworld 2007

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