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  (Source: AP)

Iran blames western spies for the attack on its first nuclear plant.  (Source: DigitalGlobe-ISIS)

Iran's intelligence minister, Heydar Moslehi claims that Iranian forces have captured "several" western spies.  (Source: AFP/Getty Images)
Iran says it will not be deterred by efforts to sabotage its nuclear program

Late last month it was revealed that Iran's first nuclear plant underwent a shocking and sophisticated cyberattack which was designed to break its fuel enrichment centrifuges.  The Stuxnet worm reportedly succeeded in temporarily hindering plant operations, infecting hundreds of plant computers. However, the worm turned out to be overly virulent, spreading to thousands of other plant computers worldwide and drawing attention.  Israel is suspected of the attack, according to a senior source quoted in a report by The New York Times.

Now Iran's intelligence minister, Heydar Moslehi, who accused western "spy services" of the attack, has claimed on Iranian state television and the Mehr news service that his forces had captured "several [western] spies".  He accused western nations (presumably the U.S. and Europe) of engaging in "destructive activities of the arrogance in cyberspace".  

He says his nation is prepared to thwart future attacks.  He states, "Different ways to confront them have been designed and implemented.  I assure all citizens that the intelligence apparatus currently has complete supervision on cyberspace and will not allow any leak or destruction of our country's nuclear activities.  Iran's intelligence department has found a solution for confronting [the worm] and it will be applied. Our domination of virtual networks has thwarted the activities of enemies in this regard."

Another senior Iranian official -- Mahmoud Liaii -- was quoted last week as saying that "An electronic war has been launched against Iran."

So did the U.S. or other western nations truly have a role in the attack? And did Iran really arrest western spies, or is it merely using the attack as yet another opportunity to crack down on political dissidents?  Many questions remain.

One thing that is clear is that the attack seems to have been a partial success, despite the Iran's claims to the contrary.  The plant's inauguration has been pushed back to next year as Iran reportedly is struggling to cleanse its systems of Stuxnet.

For Iran, the announcement of "arrests" of purported "western spies" is nothing new -- in fact it has made several similar announcements over the course of the last few years.  There's been no indication thus far whether these claims bear any trace of veracity.

While the recent cyberattacks may have created a headache for Iran, the country's recent activities have created a bigger headache for the west.  Regardless of whether they were involved in the attack, the west is struggling with the notion of Iran having access to nuclear power and advanced weapons like drone bombers.  

Iran poses a unique challenge in that it is backed by both China and Russia, who have become the nation's key trading partners.  The U.S. has faced similar challenges with North Korea -- which is also backed by China and has announced nuclear ambitions of its own in recent years.



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Could be much worse
By BernardP on 10/5/2010 11:46:23 AM , Rating: 3
Suppose a limited number of low-yield, missile-carried nuclear devices were to hit the bulk of Iranian nuclear installations, after launch from a submarine in the Indian Ocean...

--- Who could tell with certainty the nation responsible for such an attack?

--- Could such an operation be kept secret by its originator?

--- How would Iran react?

Cyber attacks don't seem too bad.




RE: Could be much worse
By MozeeToby on 10/5/2010 12:09:00 PM , Rating: 5
Different nukes use slightly different nuclear fuels. It is likely that a forensic analysis would be performed by the UN and using isotope analysis they would be able to identify the acting party with a decent degree of confidence. Especially considering that there's only five counties with nuclear launch submarines and one of those is officially allied with Iran (Russia) and another has a history of helping out these kinds of regimes under the table (France).

The risk of being found out would be too high, and the political fallout (no pun intended) of using nukes in such a way would be devastating to the acting party.


RE: Could be much worse
By Suntan on 10/5/2010 12:34:16 PM , Rating: 5
Is this the same UN that came up empty-handed after looking into that North-South Korea sinking even after they found parts of a torpedo that had North Korean markings on it?

Yeah, I'd be worried about the UN having the balls to point the finger at anyone...

-Suntan


RE: Could be much worse
By mcnabney on 10/5/2010 12:41:10 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, I lean left on many issues, but the UN has developed a habit of only coming up with pre-approved findings. Not like the US hasn't done the same....coughWMD in Iraqcough....

I would really hate for the world to have to depend on those self-serving bureaucrats.


RE: Could be much worse
By gamerk2 on 10/5/2010 2:10:26 PM , Rating: 2
Why? As you said, they are self-serving, and blowing up the world doesn't serve then well, now does it?


RE: Could be much worse
By priusone on 10/5/2010 3:25:17 PM , Rating: 4
Those empty, and sometimes not, canisters that tested positive for having once held nerve agents sure wouldn't qualify. Besides, Iraq is small and it would be impossible to bury anything underground without being easily found. Sure, cough all you want, but even the Iraqi's I've talked with are convinced that Saddam had some sort of NBC (nuke, bio, or chem) weapons.

And as far as blowing up the reactor, why bother? Islam is the religion of piece, er, um, peace.


RE: Could be much worse
By Indianapolis on 10/6/2010 8:41:56 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Iraq is small and it would be impossible to bury anything underground without being easily found.


Iraq is small? The numbers I'm finding online show that it's has a total land area slightly bigger than California.


RE: Could be much worse
By therealnickdanger on 10/6/2010 11:01:22 AM , Rating: 4
Turn on your sarcasm decoder ring and re-read it.


RE: Could be much worse
By AntDX316 on 10/10/2010 1:24:42 AM , Rating: 2
=================================================== ==========================

Can we all agree based upon reading the article, the AIDs virus was only to stay in Africa but it turned out to be overly virulent and went world wide? The STD virus was suppose to only kill gays and people who do beastiality but turned out to be overly virulent and affect other people who don't do that stuff? True, can this also be said about other things being overly virulent suppose to affect a certain area but spreading out of control to similar host that don't need to be affected?

Such as adam and eve, if it's true, those that would be affected the rest similar if in contact be affected too? This is why in 2012 the world would need a clean start due to the fact everyone judging based upon appearance and first impression because somewhere it started then it spread. Negativity affecting host that need not be affected, but has.

================================================= ===========================


RE: Could be much worse
By Jaybus on 10/5/2010 4:26:52 PM , Rating: 3
Tell that to the Kurds living in northern Iraq in the late 80's. Look up the Anfal campaign of 1988, when high ranking Baath officials in the north were authorized to use gas against the Kurds. Most of the captured Baath documents are online now, (which btw were captured by Kurdish rebels in 1991). So, yes, it was a pre-approved finding. They already knew the Baath party had actually used a WMD on the Kurds in 1988.


RE: Could be much worse
By AEvangel on 10/5/10, Rating: -1
RE: Could be much worse
By therealnickdanger on 10/6/2010 11:13:45 AM , Rating: 4
The U.S. only supplied Iraq with conventional weapons to fight Iran - no WMDs. Iraq seperately aquired biological cultures from the U.S. under the guise of "medical necessity" and proceeded to build chemical/biological weapons without our support.

Lots more information and sources here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_m...


RE: Could be much worse
By AEvangel on 10/6/10, Rating: -1
RE: Could be much worse
By espaghetti on 10/6/2010 1:58:49 PM , Rating: 2
Ah yes, the old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
One of the Carter administration's many faults.


RE: Could be much worse
By AEvangel on 10/6/2010 7:21:23 PM , Rating: 2
It's not just Carter administration but all of them.

quote:
The non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples of anthrax, West Nile virus and [[botulism] to Iraq up until 1989, which Iraq claimed it needed for medical research. A number of these materials were used for Iraq's biological weapons research program, while others were used for vaccine development.[29] For example, the Iraqi military settled on the American Type Culture Collection strain 14578 as the exclusive anthrax strain for use as a biological weapon, according to Charles Duelfer.


Not sure why my comment got rated down I guess the truth hurts?? I mean seriously your telling me we had NO IDEA that he would use anthrax as a weapon??? OMG...but he said it was for medical purposes.


RE: Could be much worse
By Ammohunt on 10/5/2010 2:35:17 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Yeah, I'd be worried about the UN having the balls to point the finger at anyone...


You kidding me? they would fall over themselves for a chance to point the finger at the Evil USA for any infraction.


RE: Could be much worse
By TeXWiller on 10/5/2010 2:55:35 PM , Rating: 3
It seems the ICC should be in a bit of a hurry in defining the crime of aggression. Too bad the US, Iran and Israel are not parties of the agreement. Then again, if the permanent members of security council wouldn't have the right for a veto, many things could be different and actual long term solutions more easily agreeable and the particular naughtiness punishable on a special agreement.


Iran + china = ...
By superPC on 10/5/2010 11:56:19 AM , Rating: 2
i know china is a major economic power but this is getting out of hand. we all know china is motivated only by money so it's easy to see them backing up countries that had difficulties with the west. dealing with countries hated by the west give china economic and political leverage. but backing nuclear program of rogue states such as iran and north korea is absurd. they don't have enough experience securing nuclear material. even if they use nuclear only for energy, radioactive material (by product of nuclear power generation) can easily got misplaced* (stolen, sold by corrupt government official)and be use as a dirty bomb ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_bomb#Constructi... ).

china may get more than they bargain for this time.




RE: Iran + china = ...
By masamasa on 10/5/2010 1:34:19 PM , Rating: 4
Any country that supports Iran in its nuclear program, be it for money or otherwise, is clearly an irresponsible power in this world and needs to be dealt with accordingly.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By gamerk2 on 10/5/10, Rating: 0
RE: Iran + china = ...
By ekv on 10/5/2010 3:43:39 PM , Rating: 4
Russia and China are implicitly supporting Iran. Iran is explicitly supporting terrorism. Israel is explicitly fighting terrorism. [I believe I've mentioned this earlier, but Israel is spelled, well, Israel ... unless you're part of "ClanMex"].
quote:
after Iraq, most of the world wouldn't mind seeing a regional counter-balence to US ambitions in the Middle-East.
Let's ignore for the moment your insinuation that US ambitions are somehow empire-building -- jejune and inflammatory rhetoric at best. How do you figure this counter-balancing works? Seeing that Saudi Arabia is closely tied to Wahhabi, a Sunni muslim sect, and that Iran is closely allied to Shia Islam. [Turkey is also mostly Sunni.]

Aside from that, aren't you a little concerned over a terrorist sponsoring nation getting nukes? A nation that is also seeking medium range ballistic missiles from N. Korea. A nation that threatens to wipe the 'Little Satan' (Israel) nation off the map. A logical next question is, what happens to the 'Great Satan' (U.S.)?

I suppose if you're a European it is just-desserts whatever happens to the 'Great Satan', no?


RE: Iran + china = ...
By AEvangel on 10/5/2010 7:30:31 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Aside from that, aren't you a little concerned over a terrorist sponsoring nation getting nukes?


Why one of the largest terrorist supporting nations on the planet has them already. The US Govt, does everyone forget that the US Govt was one of the founders of modern radical Islamic movement?

No one ever wants to remember their history that isn't reported on CNN, MSNBC, or FOX news.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By ekv on 10/5/2010 8:44:46 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Why one of the largest terrorist supporting nations on the planet has them already.
Last I checked the U.S. hasn't promised to wipe Israel or Iran off the map.

You may be referring to the CIA's checkered history of subterfuge. However, to imply we founded Wahabbism, or to suggest that we support Hezbollah -- unless Obama is doing that nowadays -- would be a blind leap of faith on your part.

Further, having U.S. spies in place would be a good idea. It's not like Iran is a stabilizing influence in the Middle East. Or are you saying you support Iran's plans to weaponize?


RE: Iran + china = ...
By AEvangel on 10/6/2010 1:52:58 AM , Rating: 2
I love my country, but my Govt has plenty of blood on it's hands, but if you actually look back through our checkered History you will see America's influence, training and funding of quite a few of the Terrorist organizations. We helped the Iraq with WMD's then funded their war against Iran. Also trained the Taliban and Bin Laden against Russia. Then you have Iran/Contra, death squads in the South America...need I go on??

This is not counting are major arms deals with Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, who you might remember was the place were 9 of the 12 supposed terrorist came from on 9/11.

Also while I don't support any nations plans to create more nuclear weapons, but Iran has never said they were. However, even if they were Iran does have the right to defend themselves against nations that attack them and when you see that the US Govt helped India, Pakistan and Israel get nuclear arms. It's kind of hard for the US Govt to be telling little Old Iran they can't have them now. As well as last I checked Iran has not invaded anyone nor have they overthrown any Govt like the US Govt has. I think it's quite hypocritical of the US Govt to accuse Iran of being aggressive, when the US Govt make Iran look like Mother Theresa in comparison.

You want to defeat Iran....then sell things to them...lets open up trade and sell them Chevy's and Fords. Let their people buy IPads and Dells. Let's open a couple Wal-Marts and Targets there maybe a McDonald or a Burger King. The faster you trade with someone selling them items they want or need the less likely the people will want to harm you even if they did in the first place.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By seraphim1982 on 10/6/10, Rating: 0
RE: Iran + china = ...
By ekv on 10/6/2010 2:33:46 PM , Rating: 3
So you do support Iran's plans to develop nuclear weapons. In your mind it is ok for "them" to have weapons, but not "us". Why? because we are "evil." Is that how the Liberal mantra goes? It's Bush's fault?

I don't know what country you love but it certainly isn't the U.S. You don't have any idea of what the Iranian gov't is involved in but you are quick to condemn the U.S. You may also want to re-read your Malcolm Muggeridge since Mother Theresa didn't exactly condone, let alone monetarily support, suicide bombers.

Don't you see? Don't you see how your guilt and your conscience, and I use the term loosely, has corrupted your ideology? You are trying to defeat me, because I love my country. You are foisting your revisionist version of history on me in an attempt to re-educate. Try doing that to Iran. Advice: wear neck armor. Iranian gov't does not share your point of view. They do not see Sharia Law as evil and/or guilty. Sharia law to them is perfect and necessary. And Shiah Islam is ready, willing and very soon, able -- thanks to indolent nut-jobs like you -- to impose that on everybody, by force if necessary, though they prefer to call it "peaceful" submission.

Personally, I'd rather not have anything to do with Iran. To send in and / or recruit spies is dirty business. There are no two ways about it. But with Ahmadinejad -- whom you are apparently comfortable with -- threatening to wipe Israel off the map, it is simply pragmatic to keep our nose in their business and keep a pulse on the balance of power. There is no sense in letting the Middle East degenerate into nuclear conflict. Bad for business.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By Reclaimer77 on 10/6/2010 2:51:55 PM , Rating: 1
Don't you love how a "I love my country" is always a prelude for a long winded bashing of said country?

I love my country, but it's the sole cause of all the misery in the world.

He should have just said that instead, short and simple.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By AEvangel on 10/6/2010 7:38:48 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Don't you love how a "I love my country" is always a prelude for a long winded bashing of said country?


I'm sorry do you have a problem with reading, I will type slowly this time and use small words. I NEVER bashed my country in that post, I bashed my Govt. Those are two SEPARATE entities. If you are too ignorant to realize that then I'm sorry.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By Reclaimer77 on 10/6/2010 9:39:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I NEVER bashed my country in that post, I bashed my Govt. Those are two SEPARATE entities.


Oh that's a silly dishonest cop-out. A country is defined by it's government, you can't really separate the two. That's like me saying I LOVE China, but I have communism. Excuse me?

There are PLENTY of domestic things to bash our government for. You went the typical blame America first for everything internationally route. Come on, own it.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By Reclaimer77 on 10/6/2010 9:44:41 PM , Rating: 1
I mean come on, you actually said WE created radical Muslim terrorists! Do you know how fucking insane saying that is? A movement that's been in place longer than we've been a country, but WE founded them. Right, perfectly logical.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By AEvangel on 10/7/2010 4:03:09 PM , Rating: 2
Actually Radical Islam was founded according to most historians in the 20's to 30's in Egypt, but the radical Islam we face now is what US Govt sponsored against Russia during the 70's and 80's.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By AEvangel on 10/7/2010 4:16:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Oh that's a silly dishonest cop-out. A country is defined by it's government, you can't really separate the two.


Oh...ok then I can assume your a liberal that likes Hybrids, supports National Health-care and Govt Bail outs of insolvent banks that made poor business Decisions? I mean your president is a Democratic Liberal and so is the Majority of your House and Senate?

What is Ironic is the actual Terrorist you speak can make the same separation that you cannot. I have seen interviews with Hezboloah members where they clearly state they have no issue with the people of America it's their Govt they hate. These same "Terrorist" go on to talk about how they don't hate Jewish people or the their religion, it's the Israel State they have issues with.

quote:
There are PLENTY of domestic things to bash our government for. You went the typical blame America first for everything internationally route. Come on, own it.


I own it....I never said our GOVT was not to blame for a majority of the international problems in the world. In all fairness though there is plenty of blame for almost all the major Govts of the world. The US Govt though is the only one I have to deal with directly and is the only one stealing from my paycheck each month so I focus on the one that is the most direct threat to my family and overall well being.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By Reclaimer77 on 10/6/2010 3:00:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The faster you trade with someone selling them items they want or need the less likely the people will want to harm you even if they did in the first place.


Ok but what about...

quote:
This is not counting are major arms deals with Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia


So you don't really want trade. You want us to trade them things WE say they can have, not the things they want or need.

And do you really mean "trade" or "export to" ? Because Iran's biggest export is oil. You know, that thing Liberals like you also blame America for buying. I can just imagine all the cries of corruption from idiots like you if we started trading Big Mac's and Walmart for "Iranian blood oil!!!!"

quote:
McDonald or a Burger King


Oh I see, you rather we kill them slowly :) lol


RE: Iran + china = ...
By AEvangel on 10/6/2010 7:31:11 PM , Rating: 2
Dude...are you shadow boxing with some liberal somewhere?? Cause I am no Liberal..

quote:
So you don't really want trade. You want us to trade them things WE say they can have, not the things they want or need.


No, I'm just saying that we are doing weapons trade with three countries with multiple ties to a variety of Terrorist groups, but we want to deny the same to Iran for their ties to terrorism? Hypocrisy much?? If you think we should sell weapons to Iran that's fine by me.

I have no problem buying their oil, hell I would love to buy all they have to fill my Dodge Truck with a V-10 in it that I use to haul golf Carts around with, but what I don't like is subsidizing the theft of that oil with my tax money so that corporations can then come in a sell it back to me.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By ekv on 10/7/2010 5:13:16 AM , Rating: 2
I'll take you at your word, not being a Liberal.

There are a couple statements you've made that don't appear to add up.

The three countries you listed were "Israel, Egypt and Saudi Arabia". None of these have explicit ties to funding terrorism. None are blacklisted (like Iran). Unless you have some proof to the contrary?

I pointed out Wahabbism has close ties to Saudi Arabia. You pointed out that "9 of the 12 supposed terrorist" for the 9/11 attacks were Saudi's. Point taken. However, to say they were "supposed terrorist" is dubious. I don't really see a point in making any kind of semantic distinction here. What were you trying to convey?

You say regarding Iran's nuclear weapons development program, "Iran has never said they were". If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck.... It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out what Iran is up to, weapons grade centrifuges notwithstanding. Given Iran's track record, the burden of proof is not on U.S. it is on them. Why are they funding suicide bombers? Have they renounced their intention to wipe Israel off the map? Are they still explicitly funding Hezbollah? need I go on (to quote you).

Your statement that "US Govt helped India, Pakistan and Israel get nuclear arms" is a false revision of history. Israel maintains a policy of nuclear opacity, i.e. they do not confirm or deny the existence of such weapons. France played a role in Israels development program, but not U.S. Or are you saying you have evidence to the contrary?

Lastly, you say "The faster you trade with someone selling them items they want or need the less likely the people will want to harm you..." Except that begs the question, why do they call us the Great Satan. It is because of our culture. I almost feel the same way they do when I see the debauchery of Hollywood in full bacchanalia. But my response is not "off with their heads." My response is not to send more money to Hezbollah. There is a reason Iran is labeled a terrorist sponsoring nation. Doing business with them has the tendency to directly fund terrorism; and yes I'm aware Iran has a vibrant underground economy.

On a side note, if we had leadership with any intelligence, we would have concentrated the full force of our media on Iran during the time of their elections. Our media ought to have investigated the mere suggestion of Iranian state police murdering political opponents. Etc. The current administrations indolent, lackadaisical, infuriatingly pusillanimous approach to Iran is dumb, a failure of epic proportions.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By AEvangel on 10/7/2010 5:47:45 PM , Rating: 2
All three of these nations have either participated in Terrorism or has what I consider very close ties with it. Israel was founded by Jewish Terrorist groups that attacked Britain during the 50's. More recently they have committed what could be called acts of genocide against the Palestinians and Lebanese people using the weapons we sold them. Like I said it seems strange that we trust our Govt when they say that Iran is supporting Terrorist, but the simple fact that the majority of men they tell us committed the 9/11 attacks were from one country, but were supposed to believe their ok. The reason I make that semantic distinction about the "supposed terrorist" is that I trust very little of what my govt tells me anymore.

As far as Iran and whether or not they are actually pursuing Nuclear weapons, I will use your same statement against you they signed the non-proliferation treaty were as we have not, they consistently say they are not, and they allow per the treaty full inspections of the facilities. Sound to me like that duck stopped quacking. The US Govt has also funded suicide bombers and Terrorist in the past and to this day we do. what is your point there, one mans freedom fighter is another terrorist.

Your right we really didn't help India get nuclear arms, they did that themselves in 1974, we have removed all restrictions from trading nuclear technology with them in 2008. However we did help Pakistan obtain them, look up Rich Barlow ex-CIA agent. As far Israel goes no one is really absolutely certain who helped them get the bomb, French are first on the list but given are close military support we are not far behind, but if you choose to believe our military on other issues then you have to concede Israel has them since our military says in multiple intelligence reports we believe they do.

I never hear the common Muslim people calling us the Great Satan, what I hear is the MSM talking to people who are either fanatics or just lost a loved one either by our direct action or by the action of someone we support. I can definetly understand how those people would want to lash out and call us names, by that by no means translates into the majority of the Islamic World. The sort of mind set that you are using they could simply say that all I see is their Leaders talking about bomb bomb Iran and how their own soldiers like Tim McVeigh blow up building full of their own children, perhaps with that type of image I can see why some would call us the Great Satan, but I have more faith in humans then most people and like to think they just like I do see the good in each other. So I don't think the majority are like that. Also keep in mind what your are seeing on the MSM is not always the truth, but their version of it.

In regards to your comment about our media concentrating on their last election, well I think they tried but Iran is a very secretive country and it's hard to get any media information out of that country that is not monitored by the state. I also agree our approach to Iran just not with this administration but for the last 60 years has been wrong.


RE: Iran + china = ...
By ekv on 10/8/2010 4:00:46 AM , Rating: 2
"More recently they have committed what could be called acts of genocide against the Palestinians..."

B.S. MSM is no friend of Israel. Current administration desperately wants a peace deal tween Israel and Palestinians and would stop at nothing to get it, including ratting them out if said "genocide" occurred.

Trying to defend "supposed terrorist" is just dumb. Either they were terrorists or they were not. There is nothing "supposed" about 9/11.

Regarding Iran signing NPT, pfft, so what. Iran has for the longest time been pulling the same trick Saddam used on UN inspectors. Under Saddam's regime, the inspectors rooms were bugged. Saddam knew where the inspectors were going before they left their rooms. Said inspectors were escorted by Saddam's security forces to the facility that was to be inspected. Inspections could be on a multitude of facilities but there had to be 24 hours notice that an inspection would take place. Plenty of time to re-locate anything that may cause suspicion. Meanwhile, today in Iran, the centrifuges churn away. Meanwhile Ahmadinejad continues his bait-and-switch rhetoric at the UN, buying time. Meanwhile, the hard-line Shiah's behind him continue to support murder of political opponents. Meanwhile suicide bombers are still rewarded. Meanwhile Hezbollah is still funded and rockets fly into Israel on a daily basis. Question: If MSM does not report a rocket launch does it still make a sound? [maybe even louder than a duck, no?]

Why would you support Iran's point-of-view and not give the benefit of the doubt to the U.S. position? Iran is still listed as a terrorist sponsoring nation, blacklisted, and direct trade with them is verboten. Unless you are muslim....

"Your right we really didn't help India get nuclear arms"

... and so you admit that the facts upon which you condemn U.S. actions are, at best, flawed. U.S. doesn't fund suicide bombers.

"I never hear the common Muslim people calling us the Great Satan"

I hear a lot about the common Muslim people. But I never hear them speak out about suicide bombers, or Jihad, or the mosque at Ground Zero, etc. [Certainly not on Al Jazeera]. Perhaps it is because Wahhabi organizations, funded by Saudi oil money, have built or contributed towards building on the order of 90% of all mosques and madrassas world-wide over the last 30 years. Money talks, and so the "common" muslim doesn't. And you know what that sounds like....

"but Iran is a very secretive country and it's hard to get any media information out of that country that is not monitored by the state."

But you believe Iran when they say they're following the strict letter of the law when it comes to NPT. Fail. You're quacking me up. Get it? quack me up.


While it wouljdn't surpise me..
By hughlle on 10/5/2010 11:41:19 AM , Rating: 1
That Iran is simply making loud noises, as they seem to do over a LOT of issues, it also wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the west was behind this and did have spies in iran who's focus was the nuclear side of things.

As such i just ignore it until they show us soe proof as never happens :D




RE: While it wouljdn't surpise me..
By MozeeToby on 10/5/2010 11:59:01 AM , Rating: 3
The more I read about this virus the more it becomes clear that this almost had to be a foreign government. The obvious culprit is probably Israel but it really could have been anyone from the US to Russia to Iraq to Saudi Arabia. There are a lot of countries that stand only to lose if Iran acquires nuclear weapons, and that includes countries which 'officially' support Iran's nuclear efforts.

As to why a foreign government is suspected, there are many hints. First, the virus writers knew the exact systems in use at the refining plants, accurately enough that the virus has taken down a significant portion of Iran's centrifuges (some sources say as much as 30%) without taking down a single other system worldwide. That's a pretty amazing false positive rate for any fingerprinting system (I wonder what the false negative rate is, but we'll never know).

Second, the virus has a portion which is written to run on PLC's, which, while not a unique skill by any means, is not a skill that hackers and crackers tend to specialize in. The virus is the first ever found that attacks these systems, and is the first example of a rootkit running on PLC's. Who ever wrote this had significant knowledge of how the PLC's worked.

Third, the virus is self limiting, after just three generations it will no longer spread. Fourth, despite the limit on its spread it has infected thousands of computers in Iran's nuclear processing facilities. Combined with the third, that would seem to indicate that the virus was injected into those networks on purpose. I think it's likely that it was never supposed to leave the facility it was planted at, someone inside Iran's facilities broke protocol and removed some piece of hardware from the labs and the virus got into the wild.

And fifth, the virus seems designed to spread and maintain itself even in high security environments. It spreads through USB drives, disks, and over network connections, and it will use peer to peer protocols to keep each node up to date if there is no connection to a command and control node. Which seems to indicate that the writers knew that the network they were shooting for would likely be air gap-ed from the internet.


By bh192012 on 10/5/2010 4:15:53 PM , Rating: 2
Actually it's hit Indonesia, India, USA, Ausralia, Britain, Malaysia and Pakistan. It's also believed to have hit China, possibly against more computers than in Iran even.


By flatrock on 10/5/2010 5:45:39 PM , Rating: 2
It is possible that it is a foreign government, but the lack of an effort to make sure it only hit a specific target makes me suspect that it was not.

My bet is on a criminal organization who looks to make money selling information the worm gathered. If so it is likely they have a government sponsor of to some extent, but one that pays them but doesn't really control them.


RE: While it wouljdn't surpise me..
By masamasa on 10/5/10, Rating: -1
RE: While it wouljdn't surpise me..
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 1:41:14 PM , Rating: 2
Well yeah, these are the same people who lock freaking lost hikers up and accuse them of "spying". I would say being doubtful of this recent claim is a pretty safe position.


RE: While it wouljdn't surpise me..
By dnd728 on 10/5/2010 6:56:15 PM , Rating: 2
Countries like that *always* find the guilty ones. Always very quickly. Many times without even knowing who they're working for, how they did that, where, why...


RE: While it wouljdn't surpise me..
By JS on 10/5/2010 7:03:55 PM , Rating: 4
Well, you might have heard of a place called Guantanamo Bay. That's where the U.S. locked up more than a few innocent guys for years, accusing them of being "enemy combatants".

Sure, many more of the inmates at Guantanamo were guilty in one way or another, but I think you get the point. Governments like spin when it suits their purposes.

Also, if you choose to go mountain hiking on the border of a country ruled by a repressive regime that dreams of obliterating your country, you'd better bring a really good GPS.


RE: While it wouljdn't surpise me..
By MrTeal on 10/5/2010 2:13:36 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
That Iran is simply making loud noises, as they seem to do over a LOT of issues, it also wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the west was behind this and did have spies in iran who's focus was the nuclear side of things.


I would be very disappointed and slightly scared if the US didn't have spies in the Iranian nuclear industry. If they don't, they had better get working on it.


New Title Sugestion
By toyotabedzrock on 10/6/2010 1:08:32 AM , Rating: 2
You title should read "Iran Reads Western News Papers!"




RE: New Title Sugestion
By espaghetti on 10/6/2010 2:03:25 PM , Rating: 2
This just in.....Westerners stop reading agenda driven newspapers. Looking for credible news sources..still looking...still looking.....getting sleepy now....


As if..
By masamasa on 10/5/2010 1:29:17 PM , Rating: 2
..anyone takes Iran seriously.




Oh No!!
By NanoTube1 on 10/5/2010 1:45:53 PM , Rating: 2
They caught me!!
*waking up screaming from a nightmare in which I am a spying squirrel*

Pah!! Pffff.... such bizarre dreams I have from time to time... wait... wah?!
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/...

O_o




By NanoTube1 on 10/5/2010 2:19:30 PM , Rating: 2
"...our domination of virtual networks has thwarted the activities of enemies in this regard."
Mhhhhhhhhhhmmmhhhhhhhhhhhh.... *|

Psss psss psss... come on persian kitties... turn that nuclear reactor on... nothing bad will happen... trust me... just press that start button... yeah, that one...
*looking from a safe distance with dark goggles and a bucket of popcorn*




Kill them all!
By stm1185 on 10/5/2010 4:33:11 PM , Rating: 2
The only real solution for mid east peace is for one side to completely wipe out the other. Here's hoping Israel comes out on top.




And.........
By C'DaleRider on 10/6/2010 6:34:44 PM , Rating: 2
As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy. --Christopher Dawson




Another couple of hikers
By trisct on 10/7/2010 4:06:40 PM , Rating: 2
... nabbed by Iranian police from just across the border. They had a cell phone and a solar battery, must be CIA hackers...




Cool
By TechIsGr8 on 10/5/10, Rating: -1
RE: Cool
By Dr of crap on 10/5/2010 12:12:44 PM , Rating: 2
Torture of captured enemies goes way back, even to the crusades. You think this wasn't done before?

It's only in the media crazed times we have now that it becomes an issue, and brought out to any and evryone to see.
Where would we be if we didn't do this in WWI or WWII. Think before you condemn these actions!

We are a nation of sofies and we will pay for not being hard enough when it counts!


RE: Cool
By MozeeToby on 10/5/2010 12:36:53 PM , Rating: 5
WWII interrogators have publicly stated that they are appalled and ashamed of the torture modern interrogators have used to try to get information. See the link here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
quote:
Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.
quote:
"We did it with a certain amount of respect and justice," said John Gunther Dean, 81, who became a career Foreign Service officer and ambassador to Denmark.
quote:
"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 5:41:55 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
WWII interrogators have publicly stated that they are appalled and ashamed of the torture modern interrogators have used to try to get information.


Correction, ALLIED WWII interrogators. Clearly not all WWII interrogators shared this opinion.

2007 article. Right around the time of the Liberal witch hunt of the war and the questioning of terror suspects. How convenient, must be a pure coincidence I'm sure.

With respect to those great men, they didn't have entire city blocks of American heartland being wiped out by NON UNIFORMED enemies hiding among us in plain sight.

And if you actually think buying these Islamic Jihadists steak dinners, playing games with them, talking for hours on end etc etc would really work you are an IDIOT. Are you serious?

You obviously don't know what kind of people we're dealing with here. Clueless.


RE: Cool
By AEvangel on 10/6/2010 2:05:05 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
With respect to those great men, they didn't have entire city blocks of American heartland being wiped out by NON UNIFORMED enemies hiding among us in plain sight.


Um...and America has....please do tell where entire city blocks of "American heartland" has been wiped out?? yes, they blew up teh WTC, but that is hardly teh heartland of America. As someone that lives in the heartland of America I have yet to see those wiped out city blocks in my neighborhood? But I can show you lots of footage of entire cities we have laid waste to in their countries.

Also look up Operation Pastorius, it was a planned Terrorist attack in 1942 and you called him clueless...go back to getting your history and information spoon fed to you from the news and the neo-conservatives movement.

quote:
And if you actually think buying these Islamic Jihadists steak dinners, playing games with them, talking for hours on end etc etc would really work you are an IDIOT. Are you serious?


No, but I bet if we left them alone in their own countries they would do the same to us. I mean it's worth a try, since meddling in their affairs for the last 70 years has led to this perhaps we might want to just trade with them and buy their goods versus trying to help corporations steal them with our military.


RE: Cool
By FaaR on 10/6/2010 5:13:37 AM , Rating: 4
It disgusts me to an infinite degree when swines like you purport to be defending western freedom and ideals by stooping to thuggery and torture.

THAT is not "defending freedom", that's DESTROYING freedom.

You, Sir, are our enemy. YOU are the non-uniformed terrorist in our midst, destroying our society with your anti-freedom agenda.


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/6/10, Rating: 0
RE: Cool
By infodan on 10/6/2010 6:04:28 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
And if you actually think buying these Islamic Jihadists steak dinners, playing games with them, talking for hours on end etc etc would really work you are an IDIOT. Are you serious?


Steak, perhaps not. You could give pork chops a go.


RE: Cool
By stimudent on 10/5/2010 2:11:12 PM , Rating: 2
The real spies are probably thinking.. "they are as dumb if not dumber than we orignally thought"


RE: Cool
By gamerk2 on 10/5/2010 2:17:51 PM , Rating: 2
Laws are laws. Unless you are arguing the Feds have the right to selectivly ignore the law when it benifits them...

Nevermind that torture doesn't work, as has been shown in studies time and time again. False intel is worse then no intel at all, because you are secure that you know something, when in fact you know less then nothing.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/10, Rating: -1
RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 9:18:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nevermind that torture doesn't work


What torture? There was no torture used. A new law was passed limiting what could be done to interrogate, and some previous tactics were banned, but at the time no laws were broken. There was no torture, they just redefined what torture was.

quote:
Laws are laws.


Exactly. Take your own advice and actually look up the "laws".


RE: Cool
By Aloonatic on 10/6/2010 6:02:05 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure that they are denying that torture has taken place since one guy wanted to know what another guy knew, but wasn't happy to share.

It is probably more of a comment to highlight how we in the west (not just the USA to be fair, it's just that they are more obvious/the biggest part of "the west") seem to think that we are the final arbiters of what is right or wrong, and it usually comes down to what we want to do and gets what we want done.

We moan about torture and how barbaric other backwards middle eastern nations are etc, then we go and render people all over the place and send them off to be interrogated whilst watching Jack Bower doing things like that all for our entertainment.

Or how we invade countries because they threaten our way of life, and over throw their leaders, killed hundreds of thousands, destabilize their societies and, well, change the way of life for millions. Just how long do you think it would take for Al-Quida, even left completely unmolested to "change our way of life"? Yet we seem to have no problem bombing the other side of the world into a slightly earlier version of the stone age, that we like to keep them in by tinkering with their governments and supporting leaders who kept it that way in the first place, then we suddenly decide is all wrong so everyone there must pay?

All very complicated, it's just amusing (is a sad way) to see how we react to other nations like Iran even daring to stand up and simply say "what's good for the goose..."


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/10, Rating: -1
RE: Cool
By Parhel on 10/5/2010 2:08:44 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Especially the hypocrisy and lunacy of John McCain's crusade against the "terrible practice" of placing a wet towel on someones face when back in Vietnam he was personally tortured to the point that he barely has function in his arms!


That doesn't fit the definition of hypocrisy at all. If anyone is qualified to make a statement like that, it's him.


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 4:02:48 PM , Rating: 2
It's hypocritical to condem your own country for "torturing" others when you have seen REAL torture first hand and you KNOW it's nothing even close to what we've been doing. Or reverse hypocrisy maybe? Or whatever, it's dishonest as hell, especially when done just to score political points and call attention to yourself.


RE: Cool
By Parhel on 10/5/2010 4:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
You know, to be honest I'm not too fond of John McCain as a politician either, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for the man, for his service to our country and for what he went through as a POW. I wouldn't presume to know his motives, but is it that hard to believe that his time as a POW would have left him with strong beliefs regarding the torture of prisoners?


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 4:52:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I wouldn't presume to know his motives, but is it that hard to believe that his time as a POW would have left him with strong beliefs regarding the torture of prisoners?


Sure. Is it also possible those experiences are causing him to, as they say, project those feelings onto a present unrelated situation?


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/5/2010 4:39:56 PM , Rating: 2
You are a scary person


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/2010 4:45:15 PM , Rating: 2
Why? Because he tells the truth? I guess you are just another pansy ass liberal that thinks the world is made out of sunshine and rainbows.

Terrorists LOVE liberals.... I wonder why


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/5/2010 4:59:43 PM , Rating: 2
You seem so bitter today.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/2010 5:17:03 PM , Rating: 2
Nope; I'm always very spirited and passionate about very important subjects/topics.

However, I do think you are purposefully being a prodding ass clown. Just my opinion.


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 5:17:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are a scary person


No, the OP to this thread is a scary person. Even more scary, people like him in large numbers are out there.


RE: Cool
By AEvangel on 10/6/2010 11:40:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's hypocritical to condem your own country for "torturing" others when you have seen REAL torture first hand and you KNOW it's nothing even close to what we've been doing.


So in your warped pea sized brain two wrongs make one right?? Do you realize how childish that is? You also should realize that then makes any supposed moral high ground that we are right and they are wrong completely void. We have then become what we fight against. Don't get me wrong I believe that if someone brings war to me or my own then I return it upon them a thousand fold, but since they didn't start the war it's little hard for me to sit here defending my Country and it's atrocities.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/6/2010 11:57:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
but since they didn't start the war it's little hard for me to sit here defending my Country and it's atrocities.

WHAT?!! It boils my blood to read misguided, naive, and downright foolish statements like that. Have you ever actually read the Koran? They SEEK out to destroy infidels. The holy war was brought to US, not the other way around.


RE: Cool
By MozeeToby on 10/5/2010 2:13:19 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Such techniques were classified as "'covert' third degree torture" since they left no signs of physical abuse, and became popular after 1910 when the direct application of physical violence to force a confession became a media issue and some courts began to deny obviously compelled confessions.
Wow! Those damn time traveling liberals somehow changed history and got water boarding declared torture 100 years ago! That is truly amazing.


RE: Cool
By gamerk2 on 10/5/2010 2:22:22 PM , Rating: 2
I got news: Waterboarding is torture, plain and simple. Ask any member of Special Forces, who goes through it as part of their training, and they'll all tell you the same thing.

Likewise, I'd be willing to put various forms of mental techniques up there as torture as well.

Limiting torture to only what leaves permenent physical injruy is like saying mental illness isn't an illness at all, and thus doesn't need to be treated [an issue the US is having a lot of trouble dealing with, in fact...]


RE: Cool
By Ammohunt on 10/5/2010 2:40:53 PM , Rating: 1
Decisions decisions Decisions!lets see torture an enemy vs. the continued existance of my child...I would perform the torture myself.


RE: Cool
By MozeeToby on 10/5/2010 3:07:33 PM , Rating: 2
False Dichotomy, those are not the only two possible outcomes. In fact, there's plenty of evidence that indicates that torturing reduces the amount of usable intel you get from a prisoner. Interrogators in WWII had lots of luck with a little fake camaraderie and light bribes. Interrogators in Guantanamo water boarded one prisoner 100+ times without getting any significant information out of him.

There is no ticking time bomb, stop watching 24 and look around. Every time it comes out in the media that we are doing stuff like this we look exactly like the evil empire that the terrorist imagine us to be. It doesn't produce good intel, it doesn't save lives; all it does is makes it that much easier for the terrorist to find new recruits.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/2010 3:15:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It doesn't produce good intel, it doesn't save lives; all it does is makes it that much easier for the terrorist to find new recruits.

What qualifies you to make such statements? If you are not a qualified individual, then please cite your sources; because last I heard, interrogation and "advanced" interrogation has already saved countless lives from domestic terror plots.


RE: Cool
By MozeeToby on 10/5/2010 3:37:48 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic... is an article about how WWII interrogators denounce modern torture techniques.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A230... is an article that features quotes from several high ranking military members about the lack of effectiveness of torture, including at least one that experienced a literal ticking bomb scenario.
http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf is a paper put out by the National Defense Intelligence College which states that torture has never been shown more effective than other methods of interrogation.

Your turn, what domestic terror plots have been prevented through torture? Furthermore, I'd like to know how anyone can say that other interrogation methods wouldn't have worked as effectively.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/2010 4:04:16 PM , Rating: 2
As I cited in a post above:
quote:
Interrogation works. "Torture" (semantics aside) is a last ditch effort of extracting information.

Just what exactly are you trying to argue here?

Interrogation IS effective. If lives are at risk, It is perfectly acceptable to "up the ante" until you get a result. Does this mean that we are going to get usable information from every single suspect/convict EVERY single time? No.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...

http://articles.cnn.com/2007-12-11/politics/agent....

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=3790

I couldn't find every primary source, but ALL major news networks covered these stories when they were hot news...
Call it whatever you want to, when the CIA had to resort to water-boarding, they got answers. Those answers saved American lives. If you don't like that, then I guess you are an advocate for allowing terrorist plots to resume? I think you are somehow trying to imply that the ones that have been subjected to water-boarding are somehow innocent... You would be naive to think that (if you do).


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 4:29:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think you are somehow trying to imply that the ones that have been subjected to water-boarding are somehow innocent... You would be naive to think that (if you do).


LOL yeah reading these guys posts you would think we just went around picking up people off the streets to "torture", and they weren't actually captured committing acts of war and insurgency against us.


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/5/2010 4:47:35 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, I would not have expected you to be so pro torture. Does your religion condone that?


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 4:54:35 PM , Rating: 2
It's not torture, so he's not "pro torture".


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/2010 5:06:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

Pretty much self explanatory.

quote:
Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

This one talks about how you should warn people of eminent danger.

You are accusing me of "pro torture" when you have absolutely not reason to do so. If you actually READ what I have said, you would see that torture is a LAST RESORT . Are you trying to equate murder and torture to self defense and the defense of the innocent?! You aren't even half a man if you say that you wouldn't do all you can do (within the laws of God) to defend the innocent.

By the same standard, I guess you don't think we should have police agencies either? They defend the public while adhering to the laws of the land...


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/5/2010 5:18:07 PM , Rating: 2
You sure can make a lot of judgments about me from no more than I have said.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/2010 5:28:18 PM , Rating: 2
.... you judged me!! Remember calling me "pro torture"? Instead of resorting to playing the victim, why don't you offer a proper rebuttal?


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/6/2010 10:46:51 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, "up the ante" until you get a result sounded kind of like going beyond normal interrogation to me. Beyond normal interrogation means torture from my stand point. If it does not to you that is between you and your maker.

By the way, calling me a "pansy ass liberal" was a bit of a stretch don't you think. Actually fiscally I am extremely conservative, socially I follow a libertarian philosophy and personally I have great compassion for my fellow man, and I use to think (naively I guess) that we as a country we held a moral high ground.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/6/2010 12:07:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Beyond normal interrogation means torture from my stand point. If it does not to you that is between you and your maker.

I'm glad that it's just your opinion, and that you aren't in charge of the decision making in this country. Otherwise, countless thousands would be dead because of your lack of testicular fortitude.

Let me ask you something: If someone captured a known terrorist, and you found out that they had a nuke planted in your *insert important people in your life* home town, what lengths would you go to in order to foil this plot? Let say you have a wife, mother, children, etc... Would you do WHATEVER it takes in order to save their lives? If you were even half a man, you would.

You act as if we have been water-boarding innocent civilians! STOP VICTIMIZING KNOWN TERRORISTS!!!! You have an extremely relaxed stance on national and civilian defense; which is very foolish and naive in my opinion.


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/6/2010 2:59:10 PM , Rating: 2
Otherwise, countless thousands would be dead because of your lack of testicular fortitude

Boy, you are quite the sweetheart aren't you! You must feel strongly about this. So far you have insulted me many times and for what reason? Because I think torture is wrong! Judging by how easy your buttons are to push you would be a good candidate for extreme (insert you favorite religion here) fundamentalism.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/6/2010 4:04:29 PM , Rating: 2
You are whining because I'm calling you out for being a complete and total pushover. You would rather lay down and die then defend your God given rights in this nation. I defend MY country from threats foreign AND domestic; and it's very obvious to me that you and your kind are a very real threat to my way of life.

Do you not realize what terrorism is? Do you not know how real this treat is? You call me a religious nut because I viciously defend my nation?!

I'm sure you would be one of the ones spitting on soldiers in airports as they make their way home from war too. You are a pathetic excuse for an American if you can't even make an effort to defend your way of life.


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/6/2010 5:05:58 PM , Rating: 2
You have been fun, so easy to manipulate. Be seeing you around no doubt.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/7/2010 11:20:45 AM , Rating: 2
You haven't formed one single coherent rebuttal in this entire discussion; bravo sir! You are really good at this debating thing...


RE: Cool
By jjmcubed on 10/6/2010 7:45:16 PM , Rating: 2
FYI. The more insults you hurl does not = winning


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/7/2010 11:12:36 AM , Rating: 2
Who told you that this was a win/lose argument? I don't think you understand out modern forum style debating works...

I called him out for being a total pushover pansy who is going out of his way to give up every single freedom that he has in order to accommodate a terrorist. Whats even more sad is that people are giving their lives so that he can have that perverse way of thinking...


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/7/2010 2:30:05 PM , Rating: 2
Again, you are calling me names because I morally oppose torture. You do not know anything about me and yet you use foul language in describing me. Did you know the US Armed forces side with me? Torture is not allowed in military interrogations because it is ineffective and counter productive. You side with the CIA.

We have not been debating because your history in these forums shows that you don't want debate, you want confrontation.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/8/2010 8:26:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Again, you are calling me names because I morally oppose torture.

I oppose torture too, unless it yields results that save innocent lives when KNOWN TERRORISTS are harboring information about plots. The FACT is that lives have been saved due to information extracted during water-boarding. You can call it whatever you want, but if a damn muslim is pushing his jihad in my nation, then you better believe that I am going to have NO sympathy if someone brings full wrath to him. In fact, I think water-boarding is the least brutal of any advance forms of interrogation (and yes, btw is STILL is classified as interrogation because they aim to extract information in order to save innocents) What can you not understand about this?

I am so confrontational about this issue for several reasons: 1 ) You evidently don't understand the concept of counterterrorism 2) You easliy and readily crack under any kind of pressure and start defending the "rights" (so laughable) of known terrorists 3) You are accusing ME of being "pro-torture" when you don't even know me! I think you are "pro-terrorist".

As I said earlier, you have not formed one single fact based rebuttal in this entire discussion, so you resort to wining about name calling and "my history" on this forum. Go cry me a river.


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/8/2010 9:13:00 AM , Rating: 2
I oppose torture too, unless it yields results that save innocent lives when KNOWN TERRORISTS are harboring information about plots.

You are admitting that you are pro torture and then in the same post you are condemning me for being surprised that a Christian would be. Of course the name calling you is a bit childish but I think I can get over it.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/8/2010 11:56:28 AM , Rating: 2
I'm still waiting for you to admit that you don't care to save innocent lives from a terrorist. What exactly is your stance on this sir?


RE: Cool
By eggman on 10/9/2010 8:48:09 AM , Rating: 2
I think a human life is the most precious thing in the know universe and would do everything in my power to save one if I could.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/9/2010 1:31:13 PM , Rating: 2
I'm glad to see that we can at least agree on one thing :)


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 4:39:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Interrogators in Guantanamo water boarded one prisoner 100+ times without getting any significant information out of him.


I have news for you, ANYTHING you can do to someone 100+ times without crippling or mentally incapacitating them can't be called "torture". Hello? Where is the common sense on this issue. One HUNDRED times!? That's torture?

It's like we've completely redefined what "torture" actually is. This is crazy.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/5/2010 4:51:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's like we've completely redefined what "torture" actually is. This is crazy.

To be honest, Reclaimer, The guantanamo detainees weren't allowed to use facebook OR use their cellphones! omgosh!


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 4:58:04 PM , Rating: 2
Oh that's nothing. I heard they use women as prison guards because that's ESPECIALLY offensive to Muslims.

God we're just terrible aren't we?


RE: Cool
By Ammohunt on 10/5/2010 6:23:40 PM , Rating: 2
Those poor blood thirsty primative tribesman! The Horror!


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/5/2010 4:24:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I got news: Waterboarding is torture, plain and simple.


Legally, no it was not. Your definition of torture is ANYTHING that causes discomfort, mental stress, etc etc. Legally water-boarding is NOT torture and never has been. The United States has obeyed every law and treaty in the interrogation of terror suspects and insurgents.

In fact when you actually research the matter, you will find U.S interrogators and the entire system bends over backwards for these people. Every courtesy is made. They even get prayer time!! On average, three times more money is spent per terror suspect in Guantanamo than ANY American citizen in any prison here.

quote:
Limiting torture to only what leaves permenent physical injruy is like saying mental illness isn't an illness at all, and thus doesn't need to be treated [an issue the US is having a lot of trouble dealing with, in fact...]


First off I wasn't "limiting" it to just that, and secondly no, it's not like saying that. That was a stupid statement man, really.

It's not up to you to decide what and what is not torture for enemy combatants in a war trying to kill our people. The world doesn't work that way unfortunately. When we waterboared, it WAS legal. A new law was made, so now it's NOT used. It's really that simple.


RE: Cool
By myhipsi on 10/6/2010 8:56:01 AM , Rating: 2
You're arguing definitions to justify your opinion. Reminds me of Bill Clinton's "depends on what the definition of IS is" bullsh*t.

If I physically drown you, over and over again, but have doctors on hand to resuscitate you after each drowning, you would not consider that torture? According to your definition, it's not. Common sense tells any reasonable person, that it is most definitely torture, and of the worst kind. Frankly, I'd rather someone pull off my finger nails one by one, rather than repeatedly drown me. The fingers will heal, and the pain will subside, but being brought to near death over and over again, will be with you for the rest of your life.


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/6/2010 12:19:50 PM , Rating: 2
Can you not understand that water-boarding is a last ditch effort to extract information when innocent lives are at risk? You are all but suggesting that people get water-boarded for not telling the US government where they keep their junk-food stashed in their houses!

a) The people that get water-boarded are known terrorist that are sitting on life threatening information.

b) previous, and less aggressive methods have already been exhausted by the time they have to resort to WB.

c) Depending on how you do it, WB can be just as effective without physically drowning the person.

As far as I am concerned the effect of "sever mental trauma" or PTSD is moot. If you are harboring information that puts me or my family at risk, then I am going to turn your life upside-down in order to save innocent lives. These people being water-boarded ARE NOT INNOCENT CIVILIANS that were just minding their own business!

FOR GOD'S SAKE, STOP VICTIMIZING KNOWN TERRORISTS!!!


RE: Cool
By Reclaimer77 on 10/6/2010 12:47:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You're arguing definitions to justify your opinion.


No it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. What is and is not considered torture isn't up to me. When waterboarding was used, it was NOT legally torture. People changed the law, and now it IS considered torture. How many times do I have to point this out?

And you know what's so funny about this whole thing? You guys are so overly concerned about the treatment of people who WANT to die. Who consider it the highest honor to die while taking "infidels" with them.

quote:
The fingers will heal, and the pain will subside, but being brought to near death over and over again, will be with you for the rest of your life.


Awwww!! I'm playing the worlds smallest violin for all the anguish we're inflicting on people who TRIED TO KILL US and who blow themselves up. Rest of their lives? You might not have noticed, but there isn't an Old Age Home for terrorists. Living a full rich life isn't exactly on the agenda.

I have to be honest, I don't give a f@$%$ about this discussion anymore. There have been 4,000 odd terrorist attempts, key word attempts, since 9/11. And I have to sit here and read you Daily Tech idiots trying to tell us these people aren't threats and interrogation doesn't produce results. How do you explain thousands of thwarted attacks if that's the case?


RE: Cool
By Quadrillity on 10/6/2010 4:08:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There have been 4,000 odd terrorist attempts, key word attempts, since 9/11. And I have to sit here and read you Daily Tech idiots trying to tell us these people aren't threats and interrogation doesn't produce results. How do you explain thousands of thwarted attacks if that's the case?

The fact that people are willing to stick up for terrorists makes me want to throw up too.


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