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Opponents to the legislation say this puts church back into schools

On May 21, 2008, Barbara Forrest, a professor of philosophy at Southern Louisiana University, testified in the Louisiana state legislature on the dangers hidden in the State’s Science Education Act.

According to Forrest, the Act allows teachers and school boards across the state to teach non-scientific alternatives to evolution including ideas related to Intelligent Design (ID). Forrest says the bill is a backhanded way to get creationism back into schools.

She states the wording of the Act names evolution along with global warming, the origins of human life and human cloning as worthy of “open and objective discussion” -- suggesting that evolution is scientifically controversial topic.

A U.S. Supreme Court case in 1987 barred creationism from being taught in U.S. public schools. The justices ruled state aid to religious teachings violated the Establishment Clause of First Amendment. Since then, the Seattle-based Discovery Institute has successfully lobbied that intelligent design is not only scientifically sound, but also that it differs from creationism barred from schools.

Despite Forrest’s testimony, the bill passed easily in Louisiana with a majority House vote of 94 to 3, followed unanimously in the State Senate. Louisiana's conservative Christian governor Piyush Jindal signed the bill, making it law on June 28.

Supporters of evolution say that the new legislation is nothing more than a new maneuver in the war to challenge the validity of Darwinian evolution. Forrest was also a figure in a 2005 trial in Dover, where she presented leaked Discovery Institute documents that demonstrated intelligent design school books were in fact creationist schoolbooks with the names replaced. 

Immediately following Forrest's comments to New Scientist, the Discovery Institute wrote a blog on its Evolution News website, claiming Forrest and the publication needed "a reality check."

"Intelligent design is currently not in the Louisiana state science standards and so could not be taught. But this allows scientific criticisms of Darwin's theory to be taught," said Discovery Institute fellow John West in a recent Reuters interview.



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So very sad...
By Sandok on 7/11/2008 8:03:54 AM , Rating: 4
Why do Church goers try and do this? This is just the ultimate form of stupidity in my eyes...

If evolution is not "taught" in Church, why should "creationism" be taught in PUBLIC SECULAR schools?

Oh well, then again, if Louisiana wants to make its future generation of students a bit more naive and clueless than the other States, so be it!




RE: So very sad...
By Proteusza on 7/11/2008 8:07:08 AM , Rating: 4
Yeah.

Besides, everyone knows that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is to blame, that and the beer it drank the night before creation.


RE: So very sad...
By Ticholo on 7/12/2008 3:03:32 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, hey, hey!!! Don't go around using the C-word! It's Intelligent Design. It's scientific-y!


RE: So very sad...
RE: So very sad...
By Ryanman on 7/13/2008 3:05:19 AM , Rating: 4
what's really funny about this is how the textbook publisher lobbied both houses for the passing of this law. They're going to make a killing off selling these books to a state who can't afford to keep its children educated already.

Congratz conservatives. Your righteous "brainwashing from birth" tactic succeeded in yet another compulsory public institution. I hope you're proud.


RE: So very sad...
By Pavelyoung on 7/13/2008 3:22:12 AM , Rating: 1
Excuse me, don't lump all of us in with the religious zealots.


RE: So very sad...
By bodar on 7/13/2008 3:43:32 AM , Rating: 3
RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 2:14:16 PM , Rating: 3
Huh? "libgays?" LOL! You make so little sense, I am wondering if you went to school in Louisiana!
Amazing acrobatic attempt to turn this around and blame the gays (did gays cause Katrina, and the broken levis...or was that poor education that rendered a lack of engineers). Ya know I think the cubs lost the playoffs last year because pf the gays too--hahahaha! Dumb*ss conservanazi. See, we can call names like a five year old, too...face it, this is another religious right conservative disaster. Or maybe you can blame it one terrorists..? Hahaha


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/17/2008 3:28:44 PM , Rating: 2
When I use the term GAY I use it in the sense of stupid or duface. Liberals ( not libertarians ) basically believe in coercive government of all types.

If government were opt in like web 2.0 websites then I would say knock yourself out...just leave me out ! ... and you can pay for what you want...and again I am not forced to help pay for your libgay programs


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 2:19:27 PM , Rating: 5
Oh, and by the way, the majority of LA students who were displaced from Katrina to Texas had to commence their education a full two grades behind in order to catch up to their Texas counterparts--schools in LA already being that poor--but maybe you can figure out how to blame that on the gays too? Or the libs?


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/17/2008 3:30:49 PM , Rating: 2
I suppose you guys think the following also

cool = cold
phat = fat

... get a clue lib.(liberal == dumb by definition ...THAT you can take literally )


RE: So very sad...
By Laughing all the way 2220 on 7/14/2008 8:19:36 PM , Rating: 1
You know if you think about it- the religious crowd is paying the same amount of taxes to keep those public schools open, keep those sports programs going, uniforms and equipment, teachers salaries etc., etc., etc. You'd think they could have an equal say in what their children get taught. For you non-educated, highly opinionated that think you know what goes on in public schools wake up. It's not what you think. Your average 10th grader 10 years ago would test higher than your high school graduate today. And the decline goes on....

Maybe you haven't heard the commercial played on national radio- "When America fails to place first in the Olympics we feel angry. When we fail to place second we feel cheated. When we fail to place third we feel disgusted. When we place 19th overall in international math tests, nobody says a word."

And yes there are 36 other countries that have better educational systems than our own. That's today folks.

Up until the 1800's, when America was a predominantly Christian nation, people would flock from all over the world to attend Harvard (a Christian College founded 1636), Yale (a Christian College founded 1701) and Princeton (a Christian College founded 1746) we were #1.

That all changed in 1867 with the creation of the Department of Education and the heavy influence of Melville Dewey (stop pretending you know who he is because only the really educated would know. For those of you who should have payed attention in class he is the founder of the dewey decimal system)(heck for those of you who were in public school you might not even know what that is- tsk, tsk).

Almost immediately they began the public school system in which there was no place for God. They cried out "Separation of Church and State!" The First Amendment, designed to protect us from a national religion (mandating eveyone had to be of one religion), was being used to separate God and the people in education (they said just teaching about God was in fact mandating everyone to religion), something which the Founding Fathers never intended.

From that day until now we have steadily declined so that we aren't even in the top 30. What a shame.

You say what's wrong with the public schools? Huh, what's right with it? I know people who graduated High School here in America and they can't even spell "house" ???
Come on people- wake up!

Below is the facts and addresses:

http://www.timss.org/

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/317/...
News Focus
EDUCATION RESEARCH:
U.S. Says No to Next Global Test of Advanced Math, Science Students
Jeffrey Mervis

After U.S. high school students did poorly on the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study in 1995, the government has decided not to participate in another version to be given next year.

We did so poorly we're not even going to participate in testing with the rest of the world anymore! What an outrage!!! And if you look at the data, we were in the middle of world scores for the 4th thru 8th grades. Now we are 19th, behind friggin' Lithuania, FRIGGIN' Lithuania!!!


RE: So very sad...
By rykerabel on 7/15/2008 3:04:30 PM , Rating: 2
So the answer is to teach Religion as science?

Oh yeah, that'll help... NOT.

I live in Louisiana, and the first time someone tries to teach my son's their religion, they will face a lawsuit. We'll see how well this "law" holds up to the U.S. Constitution.


RE: So very sad...
By Alexstarfire on 7/11/2008 8:09:16 AM , Rating: 3
The overwhelming passing of the law would suggest that that's already taken place.


RE: So very sad...
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 7/12/2008 2:45:51 PM , Rating: 3
It won't hold up in appeal. They tried this shit a few years ago and it was struck down in higher courts. This will be no different.


RE: So very sad...
By mdogs444 on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 3:38:16 PM , Rating: 5
I think you are misunderstanding the issue at hand. This would force all PUBLIC school children to learn ID regardless of the family's beliefs. Not all families that send their kids to public school are Christian.

Evolutionary theory (remember its not proven law although it is supported by an abundance of evidence) in public school; creationism in Sunday school if you so choose. Then kids can make up their own minds.

While the Louisiana legislature may have made its decision, the Federal courts will hold more authority in this matter.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By pattycake0147 on 7/12/2008 4:37:24 PM , Rating: 3
I love how he got rated up for saying creation is for whackjobs.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 4:44:50 PM , Rating: 2
Cuz... it is. Anyone that actually thinks that we were zapped into existence as told in western religions bible/tora/koran etc... is a complete boob and has no place in any intelligent conversation.


RE: So very sad...
By livelouddiefast on 7/12/2008 4:52:40 PM , Rating: 2
similarly... how about people that say a big bang started the universe? or that life came from non-life? or that man came from a single celled organism?

there are a lot of things we can't fully explain, so we need to have boobs on both sides work to hammer it out through name calling, others to reason, others to blow each other up, others to whine about on a message board. Welcome to human conflict.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 6:21:45 PM , Rating: 4
or that life came from non-life? or that man came from a single celled organism?

The big bang could probably be debated - Evolution cannot. It happened, and its proven by science. HOW it happened, can be debated, not the fact that it happened.


RE: So very sad...
By 4play on 7/12/2008 8:16:19 PM , Rating: 3
EXACTLY.

They never taught me in school HOW it happened, just that it did, and then they provided some evidence. They also never told me that big bang was how the universe was created either, just that it's a theory. Then again, I was schooled outside the US, maybe you guys all just have bad teachers that like to pass on theories as fact. Or I just lucked out with all the good ones :)


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/2008 1:53:41 PM , Rating: 2
Evolution occured and gave rise to man. After that man invented lying due to the inherent energy shortcuts that lying created.

Thus the religion of global warming was created in mans image.


RE: So very sad...
By GTVic on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By randomly on 7/13/2008 6:32:53 AM , Rating: 4
No you are confusing two closely related terms and arguing semantics. This is a common creationist word association trick. The existence of Evolution is considered a scientific Fact. There is also the Theory of Evolution which encompasses our best guesses and understanding of how exactly Evolution works in all it's myriad details and complexity. That's the theory part.

It's similar to Gravity and the Theory of Gravity. Just because there is a Theory of Gravity on how and why it works and what the implications are, details of which may even be incorrect, doesn't mean that Gravity itself doesn't exist. They are two seperate things.

Before Darwin 100% of scientists in the life sciences fields were creationists.

The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that now less than 1 out of a 1000 scientist actually involved in the fields does not believe in evolution. If you get outside the US with it's heavy population density of fundamentalists that drops to less than 1 scientist out of 2000.

To put that in perspective, there are 10 times more schizophrenics in the same population than scientists in those fields who believe in creationism/ID.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 12:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
"Since when, did I miss something? It is a theory ... repeat after me ... t h e o r y. "

Yes, you missed the past 150 years of research and science... It is a proven fact, it happened, right here on earth.
1. Geologic evidence proves it
2. Fossil evidence proves it
3. DNA analysis proves it
4. Bacterial evidence proves it

it is a fact repeat after me F A C T.

If you aren't aware of that fact, you are either not paying attention at all, or are dead from the neck up.


RE: So very sad...
By jeff834 on 7/13/2008 12:13:16 PM , Rating: 3
Every time there's an argument about evolution, people misunderstand the term "theory". In the scientific method a theory is a hypothesis that has evidence to back it up. Lots of evidence. In science gravity is still a theory but I'm sure you don't argue its validity. While evolution is not exactly something you can show in a lab (you can show the basic ideas of evolution, but you can't show humans and other primates had a common ancestor), there is quite a bit of DNA and fossil evidence to back it up. As a basic analogy if the criminal justice system used the scientific method, everyone convicted of a crime would only be guilty in theory no matter how much concrete evidence was provided.

The idea that people evolved from the same ancestor as other primates can never be totally proven because A no one was there and B it took a very very long time, but it is by far the best and most reasonable explanation we have based on the evidence. Creationism is absolutely ridiculous, and as for intelligent design, if that's what you believe good for you, but don't try to teach it to my kids in a public school. If someone wants their kids to learn that kind of thing there are plenty of private Christian schools more than willing to teach it to them.

It is my opinion that each time God is redefined to explain new things we've discovered, they get a little closer to redefining him out of existence. Hopefully then we can all get along with our lives instead of wasting time arguing about BS.


RE: So very sad...
By wvh on 7/13/2008 1:35:46 AM , Rating: 3
There's no evolution in blind faith. The whole point of dogmatic religion is not to evolve, to stay true and hold on to some old blind faith myths that anyone sane would discard as ancient folklore. There simply is no future for religion. To imply that "both sides" need to work out what really happened from their own respective viewpoints, is to ignore the nature of dogma.

These "both sides" are not equally preferable. You can't pitch religion and science as equally valuable options. Blind faith can kill; scientific conjecture doesn't. Blind faith is partial; science is neutral. Blind faith is conflict; science is debate. There are no Midwest atheists, Israeli atheists and Iranian atheists that want to bash each others skull because their own personal incarnation of science tells them the others are sinful infidels for following the wrong dogmatic rules. Only blind faith can do that, because it substitutes personal fiction for universal reality and then wants to enforce it in others.

The more room you give to fundamentalism (religion), the harder you will have to fight it later on. To (pretend to) respect it is misplaced and dangerous. It is NOT OK for people to believe nonsense because on any large enough scale, this will make your freedom and liberties melt like snow in hell.

It is of the utmost importance for democracy and the future of the human race that people learn to think critically in any and all aspects of life.


RE: So very sad...
By maverick85wd on 7/13/2008 6:12:00 PM , Rating: 1
excellently put! I'd give you a 6 if I could, that pretty much sums up my thoughts on religion in general.
quote:
It is NOT OK for people to believe nonsense because on any large enough scale, this will make your freedom and liberties melt like snow in hell.
Brilliant.

I kept trying to pick parts to quote, but ended up quoting almost the whole thing. The sentence I quoted above, though, is just too perfect. Bravo!


RE: So very sad...
By althaz on 7/13/2008 9:15:04 PM , Rating: 3
The thing you fail to take into account is that believing in God does not preclude clear thinking or critical appraisal.

I think it's pretty obvious that evolution has happened. I also think it's pretty obvious that anybody who takes half the stuff from the bible (especially the old testament) literally has been fairly poorly educated.

I was educated in a catholic school and even there we were taught that most of the things that happened in the bible are not to be taken literally. I should also point out that the amount students at my high school that believed in God was few. Certainly not the majority.

Intelligent design to me seems unlikely in the ways I have seen it explained, especially due to scientific models (which I would presume free from God's influence) of evolution displaying convergence. However it is not completely outside the realms of possibility that some higher power created the universe just so so that one day man would evolve on a little backwater planet in one of the spiral arms of a galaxy that would become known as the milky way and worship him. Not to say that that's what I believe, but it is impossible to prove/disprove or even provide evidence against or for.

Likewise there are dozens of other ways to believe and still be capable of thinking analytically. Being able to think critically is vital, I agree. Religion however has nothing to do with this one way or together.

I don't know how you were brought up but my faith (I'm catholic, duh) encourages discussion - nay, demands it. About everything, even our religion. We have only one ideal which overrides common sense, analysis and pragmatism - Treat others as you yourself wish to be treated. Without that particular piece of religious legislation (as I like to call it) we would of course be free to act in the manner that suits us best. Without that overriding demand there is no reason we cannot get ahead in life at the expense of others. Some other religions have similar ideals. Most promise a better afterlife or some merely a better future.

Alas most people in the west these days see only the attrocities comitted by the Church when the powerful forgot Christ's simple message. They see the serial killers that claim their delusions are God. They see terrorists blowing themselves to pieces in mass murders they claim are God's will.

These are not hallmarks of faith but of hate. Christianity gave the west a conscience which I like to think has moderated man's greed. To often it was used an excuse, as Islam is now, which has harmed its image. But there is a need for it still. If we have outgrown then need for religion then why are there still homeless on our streets? Why do we lie and cheat and steal from each other?

Amongst the more educated there are less who adhere to any religion. This is why there are few atheists who want to blow themselves up. Also because anybody deranged enough to do it needs somebody to blame. We don't like to take responsibilty for our actions. If religion did not exist the uneducated would still explode themselves but instead would claim it was for patriotism or that aliens made them do it. To blame religion is to not truly understand what is going on.

Without a doubt our educations systems, especially in poorer countries must be improved. Clear thinking and rationality must be the norm rather than the exception. In that I agree.

Religion though is no hindrance to this manner of thinking. In fact it's an important part of it. With knowledge comes power and with power must come morality - otherwise greed will become our only religion.


RE: So very sad...
By dever on 7/14/2008 7:20:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Treat others as you yourself wish to be treated. Without that particular piece of religious legislation (as I like to call it) we would of course be free to act in the manner that suits us best.
quote:
With knowledge comes power and with power must come morality - otherwise greed will become our only religion.
You can think of this "golden rule" as having real consequences because it reflects a natural law... there are long term consequences to treating other with respect or with disdain.

Without invoking supernatural interference, you can see the law as a observation of what naturally occurs when you behave as a boob.

With this in mind, it's quite possible that there is no conflict between "greed" and the golden rule. If you're intelligent, you'll realize that there are detrimental effects of treating others badly.

The ultimate interpretation of the golden rule would be to uphold individual freedoms -- political, civil, economic -- to allow everyone to persue their own interests as long as they do not infringe on the freedoms of others. Some might define that as promoting greed. Maybe. I don't see the conflict.

So, question... if I want, above all else, to retain personal liberties, wouldn't the golden rule demand that I promote everyone's personal liberties? In other words, doesn't the golden rule suggest that I promote greed?


RE: So very sad...
By daftrok on 7/17/2008 6:22:54 PM , Rating: 2
Hey I just read you long time ago comment on the silicon womb. So you're telling me that your wife would rather go through 36 hours of labor and then have the baby instead of just having a baby pain free? Are you a woman that goes through a monthly cycle that makes you bleed for a week? How about giving birth to a child first and then saying bullsh*t like that.


RE: So very sad...
By Clauzii on 7/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 6:19:36 PM , Rating: 2
Not exactly... Bang! then 13 billion years later life evolved on Earth is not exactly a "zap", one is evolution, the other is a magical being.


RE: So very sad...
By Clauzii on 7/12/2008 8:17:13 PM , Rating: 1
Evolution wouldn't exist if it weren't for Big Bang.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 12:14:04 PM , Rating: 2
we dont know that for 100% sure - Big Bang is a theory, it is what most scientists believe happened based on residual noise and the fact that the universe is expanding and other facts as well. Evolution is a fact, based on factual evidence found all over the earth, and in our DNA.


RE: So very sad...
By Clauzii on 7/13/2008 3:28:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I see Your point, and thinking of it, how could even Big Bang have happened without some evolvement involved?!


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 4:21:58 PM , Rating: 2
I also think about what was there before the big bang... and what lies beyond our known universe. There are 100's of billions of stars in our galaxy, and 100's of billions of galaxies in the universe, as far out as our best telescopes can see as of today. It would be foolish to think that it all ends there, and there aren't possibly 100's of billions of other universes just like ours. What we know, is infinitely smaller than what we don't know.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:49:35 PM , Rating: 2
It's because the whole creationism argument falls apart when analyzed with critical thinking. This whole argument seems really silly to me.

There is no push to teach religion in public schools in my country, whenever I see this sort of stuff I wonder if these people have lost their minds.


RE: So very sad...
By murphyslabrat on 7/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 11:30:03 PM , Rating: 3
The heresy you speak of is about couple doozies like whether the Earth is round and whether the Earth is the center of the universe. Those were scientific theories at one point too. Now they're proven. We aren't suddenly going to realize that the church was right about that all along. Those two just happened to be easier to observe compared to evolution.

The issue at hand is not whether creationism/ID should be taught at all; just whether it should be taught as science in public schools. It is not science in any way, shape, or form. It fails the scientific method in that it cannot be observed nor disproven and therefore does not belong in a science class.

If this where the Chinese or medieval church mentality you speak of, creationism/ID wouldn't be allowed anywhere let alone public schools.


RE: So very sad...
By Ryanman on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By Lakku on 7/12/2008 4:46:50 PM , Rating: 5
ID is still creationism, only tailored to fit the abundance of evidence pointing to evolution actually occuring, though still a theory. I'll give a bit of credit to ID people, as at least they see the evidence of evolution and try to accomidate that. But in the end, don't kid yourself, it's still just people who believe in creation, but have learned they can't ignore the evidence or facts in the fossil records. It's like trying to have your cake (God and creation) and eating it too (the fact evolution has evidence, god and creation do not).


RE: So very sad...
By just4U on 7/13/2008 1:29:50 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know .. I don't follow what ever their cooking up but I am somewhat religous. I lean towards evolution but with a inteligence behind it. Just the people 6-7000 years ago couldn't comprehend that sort of things so they broke it down into something more simple and perhaps magical.

I look at the big blue ball on my desktop and at all the things around me and think how can this all just be some random. Just doesn't make sense to me. Plus I just can't accept the fact that when I die that's it. My experiences in life suggest otherwise, weather imagined or not. I think were all energy and perhaps some form of inteligent energy.. so while there may not be a heaven and hell and our religious books don't have it right I still think there's alot more to this then meets the eye...

I don't think that's a unreasonable school of thought. Should it be taught in schools? I don't really know. Everyone comes to their beliefs in their own way and it's different for everyone so..


RE: So very sad...
By UppityMatt on 7/14/2008 11:28:47 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I just can't accept the fact that when I die that's it.


And that's the reason that Religion was created. To help control the population and create an answer for a question we can't comprehend.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:51:08 PM , Rating: 2
You missed that Evolution is guided by natural selection, the random thing is much less important than that.


RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 4:56:33 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, Intelligent Design IS Creationism. Make no mistake about it. They are two different interpretations of the same story; Genesis. You will find no such ID text book that gives credence to evolution. As mentioned in the article, some ID text books have been shown that they are creation textbooks with the word creation replaced by intelligent design.

Not to mention, there is not one single shred of evidence that supports creation/intelligent design. The scientific method cannot be applied to the study of creation/ID. Therefore, creation/ID does not belong in a science class.

Just because children are taught evolution in public schools, doesn't mean they're taught that evolution is the be-all and end-all answer to the origin of life. It just happens to be the most comprehensive theory science has that is supported by boatloads of evidence and can be used to predict repeatable results in experimentation.

Creation/ID should left in Sunday school where it belongs.


RE: So very sad...
By Suomynona on 7/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By BruceLeet on 7/12/2008 5:42:49 PM , Rating: 2
Intelligent Evolution perhaps?


RE: So very sad...
By justjc on 7/13/2008 11:18:05 AM , Rating: 1
Sorry but I have to correct retrospootys statement that evolution a theory of random happenings, as evolution theory is the complete opposite. Evolution theory is a series of proven laws that explains the way species evolve.

The best known of these laws is survival of the fittest. This law applies both in the case of a single species, where the one that does the best has the best chance to pass on it's genes, and in the enviroment they inhabit where the species best suited to surrive lives on and others die out.

One of the best arguments of creationists and supporters of intelligent design is that evolution theory is just a theory. What they seem to forget is that it's a proven theory.
Other theorys that christian fundamentalists might like to attack is the theory of gravity, it must surely be God holding you back so you don't fall of the earth, the theory of the solarsystem, surely the sun circles the earth as the bible says and not the other way around. I'm sure you can find more well established theories that have been proven fact but doesn't fit your religius view.

You may teach your intelligent design in sunday school, but keep it out of public schools as it's a non proven theory(unlike evolution)


RE: So very sad...
By 16nm on 7/13/2008 7:53:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think you are misunderstanding the issue at hand. This would force all PUBLIC school children to learn ID regardless of the family's beliefs. Not all families that send their kids to public school are Christian.


You could just as easily flip your argument around.

"I think you are misunderstanding the issue at hand. This would force all PUBLIC school children to learn the theory of evolution regardless of the family's beliefs."

This is where the christians are coming from.


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 10:23:05 PM , Rating: 1
Would you prefer we also teach them that the earth is the center of the universe, and that the Flintstones is a historical document? Of course you would...
It's science class...duh. Why do you have such a problem with it? Clearly you don't even understand evolution--are you simply too lazy to learn? So home-school your offspring, keep them as ignorant as you want, and don't be a hypocrite by vaccinating them.


RE: So very sad...
By sld on 7/14/2008 3:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
Great use of straw men there. =)


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/15/2008 2:48:03 PM , Rating: 1
Uhhh, how do you figure Sid? You sure you have a grip on what that phrase means? I am not going to sit here and write how you're wrong...like evolution, you might have to think about it with a little more energy than you dedicate to tying your shoes.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:34:35 PM , Rating: 5
No, I don't believe that parents should choose what their children learn. I think that children should learn science in the science classroom even if their parents don't want them to.


RE: So very sad...
By murphyslabrat on 7/12/2008 11:04:58 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
...the Supreme Court (with a few exceptions) lacks the courage, the will, the virtue, and the wisdom to perform this function [censorship]. In such a vacuum, they have allowed complete cultural anarchy where pornographers live like Colombian drug lords and brainwashed teenagers turn their schools into combat zones. I place the blame for our cultural rot primarily on the pantywaist courts.

But a healthy culture... can not tolerate this situation... So what needs to happen? "We the People" need to draw the line. We need to say "Here and no further" to the purveyors of culturally destructive filth...


Is this what you are proposing? That we block any matter unworthy of consideration? That, like China (which didn't have part in this quote, just to be clear), we prevent anything from being taught, save the accepted dogma? If you believe that evolution needs protecting, just say so.

BTW, the quote (which with I took some liberties) can be found here: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37eaf1e13daa.ht...


RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 11:49:35 PM , Rating: 4
Are you worried that evolution is culturally destructive filth? Kind of like when it was proposed that the Earth is round and not the center of the universe was culturally destructive filth as well? What will you do if evolutionary theory is completed in your lifetime?

No one is preventing creationism/ID from being taught. It simply doesn't belong in public school science class. You and your family are free to go learn about it at church.

It's not evolution that needs protecting; it's objective thought in public schools that needs protecting.


RE: So very sad...
By GTVic on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By randomly on 7/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By zombiexl on 7/13/2008 1:19:00 PM , Rating: 2
Dont get me wrong, i'm not sure where i stand on this. Although in reading your post it occurred to me that.. In order for someone to think objectively they need more than one choice or theory presented to them.


RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/13/2008 1:25:28 PM , Rating: 2
Right, but the alternative choice is not creation/ID; the alternative to a true scientist is that the theory may eventually be proven wrong. That's the scientific method.

Unfortunately, the abundance of supporting evidence most likely will prove evolution played a role in whatever happened.


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 2:50:06 PM , Rating: 2
That is another inane theory. When you are thinking objectively about how much money is in your pocket, you count it. You measure it in one way, the mathematical way of counting, correct? Or is there another "theory" you alternately employ beyond mathematics to "objectively" figure out how much is in your pocket? Where the heck did you pull this "you need two theories to think objectively" from?


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/12/2008 9:28:31 PM , Rating: 2
I want to know why it is that religious people want to violate the very laws that allow them to practice their religion in peace and freedom! I.e., no government sponsored religion, etc. Hmmm? One of you want to answer that one? And don't all chime in at once that you are all the one true religion and so have the right to violate it in the name of your particular god.


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 3:16:55 PM , Rating: 1
Wha...? You don't "believe" in science, so I have a hard time believing you are an authority on global warming. and why the hell would anyone want to make up global warming? How the hell would that benefit anyone? Wow, though, you do make it clear that the education deficits are worse than I thought...


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/2008 1:51:15 PM , Rating: 2
If only the courts would realize that MMGW was a religion. I am so sick of it. It is being rammed down our throats.

Dogma in the form of "you are a denier"....translated "you are an unbeliever" sound familiar? Yes indeed I am a infidel.


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By Aloonatic on 7/11/2008 8:10:36 AM , Rating: 1
I love these stories, they are very amusing none the less and lets the American hating crowd get things off of their chest and feel better about themselves.

This type of story reminds me of a anecdote that I heard (I can't remember from where, was an American on a TV show, may have been Ruby Wax???) regarding the teaching of foreign languages (I think it was French) in a Texan school.

Apparently, a Texan gent stood up in the school meeting and boldly proclaimed:

"If only speaking English was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me and my children."

Not sure if it 's true, but it still makes me chuckle.


RE: So very sad...
By Lakku on 7/12/2008 4:51:30 PM , Rating: 3
That quote is actually from a Texas govenor making a somewhat silly point to people wanting to force teach Spanish in Texas/American schools. I forget their name off the top of my head, but yes, it's true, but not in the way you describe it. And it was part sarcasm before people go running around thinking they meant it literally.


RE: So very sad...
By Aloonatic on 7/11/2008 8:11:01 AM , Rating: 1
I love these stories, they are very amusing none the less and lets the American hating crowd get things off of their chest and feel better about themselves.

This type of story reminds me of a anecdote that I heard (I can't remember from where, was an American on a TV show, may have been Ruby Wax???) regarding the teaching of foreign languages (I think it was French) in a Texan school.

Apparently, a Texan gent stood up in the school meeting and boldly proclaimed:

"If only speaking English was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me and my children."

Not sure if it 's true, but it still makes me chuckle.


RE: So very sad...
By mdogs444 on 7/12/2008 3:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If evolution is not "taught" in Church, why should "creationism" be taught in PUBLIC SECULAR schools?

There is no law or act banning the teachings of evolution in church.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:51:57 PM , Rating: 2
Churches are not public institutions.


RE: So very sad...
By mdogs444 on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By Ryanman on 7/13/2008 3:11:54 AM , Rating: 3
the public didn't vote. A couple power hungry people that realized the vocal conservative war machine would crush them voted.


RE: So very sad...
By zsdersw on 7/13/2008 8:44:30 AM , Rating: 2
The public cannot vote for something that's unconstitutional like, say, to remove your right to life even though you've committed no crime. The majority doesn't have unlimited rights or unlimited power. Everything about how our government was initially conceived and structured is meant to mitigate the power of the majority.


RE: So very sad...
By Eri Hyva on 7/12/2008 5:35:48 PM , Rating: 2
There is no law to require churches (of any religion/belief system) to teach evolution.

And let's keep it that way.

Of course, the other way around, too.


RE: So very sad...
By walk2k on 7/12/2008 7:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
Hey I don't mind if they teach "ID" or creationism.

As long as it's done in a class called something like "World Relgious Studies", and they they take a look at ALL religions of the world, without endorsing one over another.

Sure, no problem...

But in SCIENCE class ahhhh I think they should probably stick to actual science.


RE: So very sad...
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 7/12/2008 8:10:42 PM , Rating: 5
exactly..

Some interesting points by masher2 & others. For doubters of evolution, here's some quick 5 min videos of proof of evolution by a biochemistry PhD (my major was also biochem/molecular cell bio at UCBerkeley) -I'll like to call it proof/evidence:

- http://www.youtube.com/v/T9ZUFsLLHSs&hl -How God & Evolution are compatible by scientist Ken Miller

http://www.youtube.com/v/O4GdZOlPrX8&hl -Transitional Fossils

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0wwhSlo1NI -gradual changes/walking-airbreathing fish

-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0 -4 Proofs of Evolution

-http://www.youtube.com/v/9V_2r2n4b5c&hl -Quick 5 Minute Video on Evolution Evidence/Creationism Disproved

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-... Scientific American: 15 Answers to Creationist Propaganda -www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creatio nist</a>

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4311046&... -ABCNews: Florida Finally Allows word 'Evolution' to Be Included in Teaching Standards For The First Time

http://media.pbs.org/asxgen/general/windows/wgbh/n... -NOVA documentary –Dover trial –Fossil evidence ch. 5 & how the courtroom & reporters were amazed & surprised at all the fossil evidence/'missing links' found between fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to dinosaurs, dinosaurs to birds, & reptiles to mammals BECAUSE CREATIONISTS HAD FOUGHT to KEEP THE EVIDENCE OUT OF HI SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS

http://media.pbs.org/asxgen/general/windows/wgbh/n... NOVA documentary –Dover trial –Fossil evidence ch. 5

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/qt/3416_0... -NOVA documentary -Dover tiral –DNA evidence ch. 6

==
<a href=
http://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5M target=new4>WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5M& lt;/a> --Ken Miller on How Entire Human Chromosome #2 is the Result of the Fusion of Ape Chromosome #13 onto Ape Chromosome #2 --4 minutes of eye-opening evidence

==
<a href=http://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0&feature... target=_new3 >-- DNA proof of evolution -9 minutes of eye-opening evidence …fast-forward to 7 min mark if already seen the 1st video </a> -shows human DNA contains ERV(endogenous retroviral DNA) at exact same spots (out of 3 billion spots) as ape DNA -retroviral DNA infected ape DNA at the exact same spots as human DNA (meaning humans inherited the infected DNA from apes) -click Part 2 also:

http://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=D0wwhSlo1NI --evolution + transitional form of fish to amphibian (mudskipper):

You should see Ken Miller's lecture on this(1st link).. Great info & provides some good bits that are impossible to explain in any sensible manner.
.........
1st video is from Brown University bio proffesor Ken Miller who explains DNA EVIDENCE how apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes (number #1 to number #24) while humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes (numbered #1 to number #23) .. recently, both the entire human & ape DNA/genome was mapped .. evolutionary theory can be verified/tested in that if humans evolved from apes, humans are missing the 1 ape chromosome pair cause the 1 chromosome pair fused/attached to end of another chromosome (ape chromosome #13 attached/fused to what we call now call ape/human chromosome #2). (Chromosomes come in pairs --one of each pair is just a copy/a mirror image of the other: total number of chromosomes is 46(23 pairs)

Chromosome #2 of humans is shown next to two chimpanzee (and gorilla and orangutan) chromosomes since the human chromosome #2 is twice as long as the chimpanzee (and the other apes as well), yet all the bands match up showing that the one less human chromosome is merely the result of two chimp chromosomes getting connected together!"
….
Further DNA testing showed that human chromosome #2 MATCHES ape chromosome #2 & #13 when both ape chromosomes are lined up end to end! Human chrom#2 is complete match with telomere & centremore at exact location/fusion points, proving that human chromosome #2 is a fusion of ape chromosom #2 & #13
........
Chromosomes have a beginning & an end marked by telomeres. After mapping the entire DNA of both apes & humans, lo & behold, humans have the entire missing ape chromosome fused into chromosome #2 (we know they're fused because there is a telomere in the MIDDLE of the chromosome in addition to the normal telomere at the end/beginning of chromosome #2 --such an anomaly can only be explained by the fusion of the missing chromosome with chromosome #2 --not only that, but the fused portion of the chromosome matches the "missing" chromosome of the apes!).

......... Contray to creationists propaganda, individuals w/differeing numbers of chromosomes can still mate w/the rest of the population (wild horses w/ 66 chromosomes can still mate with domestic horses w/64 chromosomes, humans born with extra or missing chromosomes can still mate w/ normal humans & all produced fertile offspring)

==

here's more info that exposes the ignorance of the creationists(that IDEA site was written by a lawyer w/ no understanding of biology (the following link explains how chromosomes fusing/splitting results in new species --note, the fusing of chromosomes DOES NOT mean the loss of genomic(genetic) information -think of chromosomes as piles of paper or filing cabinets for holding DNA..fusing just means u have 1 big pile instead of 2 smaller piles, that is, 2 filing cabinets fusing into 1 bigger filing cabinet ):

<a href=http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/basics_... target=new>http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/basics_...

More refutation of IDEA’s ignorant essay by creationist lawyers:
<a href=http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/09/luskins... target=New2>http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/09/luskins...

........
More evolution proof videos:
<a href=http://WWW.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2 target=new6>WWW.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2</ a> .....
==
<a href=http://WWW.youtube.com/user/rippedbuff target=_new3>WWW.youtube.com/user/rippedbuff< /a>


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/12/2008 10:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
And why is it that the purist and most constant displays of "evil," (in this case, fostering and perpetuating ignorance for the sake of religious power), come from those who tout their religiosity?


RE: So very sad...
By DeanO on 7/12/2008 11:43:30 PM , Rating: 1
This is indeed a backward step. Disappointing.


RE: So very sad...
By themusgrat on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By commissar12 on 7/13/2008 12:37:49 AM , Rating: 3
how do you teach this universal 'idea' you are supporting, how do you apply it in the classroom. the kids just come in sit down - "hey, kids, everything in the universe was created by an intelligent desinger, have a question? ask him" - class dissmissed

how does ID help us or even matter? it doesnt answer anything, its not useful


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 12:18:13 PM , Rating: 1
"Don't get me wrong, it's a very well thought out theory, but it's a theory nonetheless. You still have no real proofs of it."

Right - you are correct. If you ignore all of the fossil evidence, claim ignorance on DNA evidence. - Take the geologic evidence out of the equation, and pretend we don't actually see current examples of bacteria evolving immunities to our antibiotics... then yes, there are no real solid proofs at all.

In order to think its just a theory, and say there is no proofs you have to make a lot of ignorant assumptions and ignore alot of fact. Or... you could just wake up.


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 3:49:19 PM , Rating: 2
How do you figure global warming is a religion? I am on the edge of my seat...your answer is gonna be rich, I am sure, and I could use a good laugh.


RE: So very sad...
By Aikouka on 7/14/2008 8:49:28 AM , Rating: 2
Unless they push Intelligent Design as "the answer," I'm not sure how you exactly see this as bad. Do you really feel threatened that the children will be... learning another answer to "the great question" (a bit of a South Park reference)? I think it would've been interesting to have all 3 at least mentioned at one point in high school as I never heard of Intelligent Design until a college philosophy course. Although it may not fit into a science class, but that may be the only course to teach it in depending on the diversity of courses the school has.

Although, based on what I remember about ID, I'm still not sure why people lump it together with religion? You could be a Pastafarian (FSM) and believe in ID as it makes no actual reference to the Biblical God (that I recall). It's all about the "Primal Mover."

To kind of sum it up, it may not fit into a science curriculum, but I think learning a little about Intelligent Design (note, not pushing it as "the answer") would actually be beneficial.


RE: So very sad...
By marvdmartian on 7/14/08, Rating: -1
macro vs. micro evolution
By livelouddiefast on 7/12/2008 4:45:11 PM , Rating: 2
Micro evolution is empirically proven science. I'm marginally different from my parents. I don't think anyone can deny micro evolution as we prove it with every human/animal born.

Macro evolution, on the other hand, is the real issue. It involves matters of faith (not in God, in an idea). It takes as much faith to believe the world is 10 thousand years old as it does to believe it's 3 billion, or to believe that there are animals to fill in the missing links. You weren't there, you have faith in the scientist, their instruments, and in their dating techniques.

The problem really start happening when we start throwing these theories at kids to explain the world around them when they are just theories. In my opinion, just leave the origins of life to extra curricular or non-mandatory classes, and make sure to give the common views their due in the realm of publicly funded, public education.




RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By maximal on 7/12/2008 5:03:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It takes as much faith to believe the world is 10 thousand years old as it does to believe it's 3 billion, or to believe that there are animals to fill in the missing links.


I beg to differ. Scientific opinions are based on a body of evidence. Earth's age, for example, is based on rock dating that has been performed all over the planet and it turned out the oldest one dated (from Quebec mountain range) is about 4.5 billion years old, so it doesn't take much faith to believe that Earth itself is in the ballpark of that figure. Believing Earth is 10 thousand years old despite an overwhelming body of evidence takes 100% blind faith. The only faith in science is faith in scientific method, which is a logically consistent way of deriving scientific conclusions.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By livelouddiefast on 7/12/2008 5:14:40 PM , Rating: 3
again
quote:
You weren't there, you have faith in the scientist, their instruments, and in their dating techniques.


When I did a google search for young earth evidence, I was taken to this site: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp
It's cited and it has a bias- but so does everything. Not everyone believes this stuff because they are stupid or illogical, they believe it because they have faith in the scientist, their instruments, and their techniques.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By 4play on 7/12/2008 5:39:01 PM , Rating: 2
There is something called the scientific method. It is a method of reasoning. It is what keeps scientists in check. You are not blindly placing your trust into them, you have been educated to a certain degree yourself. You should be able to decide somewhat whether or not their claims are bogus.

Of course God may have created everything 6000 years ago or yesterday, or you could be plugged into the matrix, or be the only living thing in the universe, thus having everything you know be a figment or you imagination. take your pick :p


By livelouddiefast on 7/12/2008 6:21:51 PM , Rating: 2
blind faith/trust is not the issue at hand. I'm sure a lot of people believe what they believe because they read it in their science textbook or the Bible or from a forwarded email. The issue is that none of these things make their beliefs true.

Faith does come down to a philosophical question of what can we all agree on enough to consider truth. Obviously, creationism/ID and macro evolution don't fit the bill since we're having this discussion in the first place.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By NightAngel1981 on 7/12/2008 6:32:52 PM , Rating: 2
From Wiki:(hated by all but still true)

"Scientific method is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses."

Tell me how anyone can use the scientific method and observe the creation or generation or big bang or alien guided manufacture or anything of 8000-4.6 billion years ago.

Just as many people use science to prove creation as those that use it to disprove it.

I don't care if schools teach evolution, I just want them to be able to teach that it has more holes in it than a spaghetti strainer.(micro, macro applies)

http://www.evanwiggs.com/articles/reasons.html

Peruse some of the reasons above and think them through.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By 4play on 7/12/2008 8:07:46 PM , Rating: 2
From what I read (didn't read all of it), It seemed to me that he was just attacking the assumptions with assumptions. From the link:

quote:
The trouble with this primitive atmosphere concept is that once life did occur, the reducing atmosphere would kill it as life needs oxygen. Evolutionists try to say that plants produced the oxygen, but plants need oxygen for respiration. There would have to been a very rapid change from reducing to oxidizing atmosphere once life appeared for life to have occurred in this manner. There is no mechanism or process that could do that quickly.


Oh really? How would he know? He is making some wild assumptions that are not based on any science. That is what he uses to disprove the assumptions of evolution advocates. His paper isn't science.

As for
quote:
I don't care if schools teach evolution, I just want them to be able to teach that it has more holes in it than a spaghetti strainer.(micro, macro applies)

For school complex things are dumbed down/simplified, As I've said in some of my other posts, chemistry in high school is overly simplified, The idea of gravitational fields are simplified into a force without deeper understanding, simply because it is unnecessary to know more at the high school level.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By CSP on 7/12/2008 8:41:30 PM , Rating: 2
Check out the Field museum's online exhibit about evolution. Very digestible and clear. Cool, too. Of course, I doubt if the ID'er's would bother..."The devil lives in between the mouse clicks, eh?" Hey, did they quake on their knees and repent after the last eclipse?"


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By jeff834 on 7/13/2008 12:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
Just a quick comment about something I thought was kind of funny after I read yours. I recently went to the Field museum in Chicago and as we were walking through the evolution area of the museum we overheard some people discussing the bible and evolution as well as dinosaurs and how they fit into creation. I resisted the urge to start an argument :) On a side note their exhibit was quite nice and informative. I learned some things I didn't know, and I've studied evolution in college.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By CSP on 7/13/2008 3:24:39 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, yeah, they did a nice job, eh? But that is scary that right there, even with everything explained so clearly and patiently, some visitors seemed immune to the simple logic of it all. Natural selection/genetic variation at work and on display right there, like they were part of the exhibit! LOL!


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 3:27:56 PM , Rating: 2
"its Satan, trying to fool us, just like when he put all of those dinosaur bones there for us to find". - Stephen Colbert.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By maximal on 7/12/2008 5:46:12 PM , Rating: 2
None of us are "there" for 99.999999…% of events in the universe at every moment in time. Does that mean they did not occur, since they are now in the past? This is the age old argument of: if a branch falls of a tree in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound? A scientist would give an unequivocal "yes"; a person of faith may answer "no". The difference is: a scientist understands sound as a physical process of vibrating molecules disconnected from its interpretation by the human brain, while a person of faith would imagine sound coming from some intangible void disconnected from all physical reality.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By Suomynona on 7/12/2008 5:31:16 PM , Rating: 2
Bullshit.

Macro = lots of micro

There's evidence. It's proven. It took me 5 seconds to find: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Try reading a real scientific book on evolution - it's amazing what you can learn.


By livelouddiefast on 7/12/2008 5:52:32 PM , Rating: 2
I listed a site above with evidences for the young earth theory. Does that make it true so it's not debatable? Circumstantial evidence explains lots of macro = micro but it certainly doesn't prove it to be hardened fact.

People are always going to question what they can't see (read: understand). If someone can't see macro evolution occurring, they're going to keep questioning. If someone can't see a God, they're going to keep questioning. Some things that are unexplained may never have concrete answers so the debate is going to rage on (unless one side gets apathetic and gives in).

TY to DT for making a topic that is fun to troll while I'm working.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By GTVic on 7/13/2008 3:03:40 AM , Rating: 3
"It's scientific, OK, I'll just take your word for it"

Seems like science is a religious experience for some people. They accept it on blind faith never doubting someone who is just as susceptible to greed, desire for fame, jealousy ... as the rest of us.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By jeff834 on 7/13/2008 12:44:35 PM , Rating: 2
However the point of science is that you can always personally review the evidence and decide for yourself. While you CAN take science on blind faith you certainly don't have to. Some religions are a little better than others on what you can and can't question, but ultimately everything you're told by your priest or whatever figure you listen to is supposedly from the mouth of God and must be taken on blind faith. This to me is the most important difference between the two. You can always personally review scientific evidence and come to your own conclusions. When I was a kid I believed what they told me in church and what they told me in school. As I grew up I realized I could decide for myself and after looking at evidence I've decided science is quite a bit more reasonable.


RE: macro vs. micro evolution
By CSP on 7/13/2008 4:25:38 PM , Rating: 2
Uhhh, yeah, sure, and a horse is kind of like a car...
Science is not religion, no matter how you people try and paint it. Try a new tack. That one ain't working. How about..."science is magic!" Ooooh, yeah...and cameras steal your soul! Back up the tree with you, Bobo.


Fee Will
By hiscross on 7/12/2008 10:14:11 PM , Rating: 1
GOD allows man to have free will. Humans on the hand can't stop free will. It seems if evolution is real, then scientist should have solved the free will thing by. Why allow man the opportunity to kill or start wars? GOD allows such things (but doesn't approve of it) allowing man to have his free will. But man, with all of his science, can't stop it. You would think if scientist would be working solving free will, instead they are trying to convince people we came from monkeys, turd dust, or whatever. Seems to me someone has things a little mixed up. Nice to see GOD doesn’t have that problem.




RE: Fee Will
By jeff834 on 7/13/2008 1:01:52 PM , Rating: 2
For all the BS people spout about God giving man free will, but disapproving of his/her choices, they never have a reason why that would be. Why would an all powerful being create insignificant people like us? Why give us free will to not believe in him? Why let us do things he doesn't want us to? Why give us the ability to think and be logical since it moves us farther away from believing in him? Your best answer is that it's all part of "God's plan". Really you don't have an answer and just choose to ignore all those questions and continue on with your ridiculous blind faith.


RE: Fee Will
By just4U on 7/13/2008 8:35:04 PM , Rating: 2
I am a firm believe in the fact that Scientists don't even have a fraction of a clue as to how it all works. A 100 years from now .. or maybe a 1000 people will look back on scientific belief from this era and chuckle with amusement. That's not to say they won't acknowledge that science today is indeed on the right track just there's a long way to go before we can just put it all into some neat little package.

By the same token religion is no better. People tend to take the "written word" in holy books (regardless of what religion) at face value which is aboslutely absurd. Perhaps that made sense to people a 1000 years ago but we know better now. That does not mean to suggest that these religous people were not inspired in some way but rather that their interprations of it all were not advanced enough to translate over to modern times.



RE: Fee Will
By GarionGoh on 7/13/2008 9:58:12 PM , Rating: 2
Allow me to reply:

1)Imagine for a moment our relationship with our parents, can you imagine if they have us given no free will as we were growing up? However little or much, what they do gave us, they do not necessarily approve. If you are a parent yourself, would you expect your children to follow your orders exactly? All their lives? And you would never disapprove or approve any choice they made?

2) Why would an all powerful being create insignificant people like us?
Well, for fellowship and love. While you may think that we are insignificant to Him, He really thinks very much of us, that includes you. How else would He came as a human being and die for us?

Secondly, which baby can do anything for their parents when they were born? Would that then make the baby insignificant for the parents?

3) Just like in point (1), can you imagine that whenever you want to disagree with your parents, somehow you can't?

4) Maybe the question to ask is: why do you not listen to Him and stop hurting ourselves physically, mentally, emotionally.

5) The ability to think properly will eventually cause anyone, not to move further but closer to Him.
Example:
A friend who dun believe in God came to visit his astronomer friend who does. He saw the entire model of the solar system on his friend's desk and proceed to ask him who made it. His friend's reply was that nobody made it, it just came into existence. He of course didn't take him seriously and asked again, in fact many times, to which the friend insisted that it just came into being. Then finally the friend asked him, "How do you think we came about?"

My only hope is that this gives you a little perspective into other ways of looking at life. It is definitely your choice to chose what or rather Who to believe.


RE: Fee Will
By zsdersw on 7/14/2008 6:46:38 AM , Rating: 2
You're modeling why your God works the way it does around our own human thoughts, feelings, and processes. This is no more of a "divine" explanation than anything else.


RE: Fee Will
By GarionGoh on 7/14/2008 10:50:19 AM , Rating: 1
Well, if you would take the time to study the Bible, you would see for yourself that God indeed made us in His own Image, i.e. We are like Him and not the other way round. Of course, when you do take up the Bible and read it, read it like you would read your newspaper. Dun shut your brain just because you're reading the Bible and allow years of distorted religious to shut your "eyes".

Do be warned though, that many a learned atheist, scientists and scholars alike, who actually study the Bible for themselves instead of relying on hearsay and traditions, ended up a believer. :)


RE: Fee Will
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 1:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
"GOD allows such things (but doesn't approve of it)"

first off, I am an evolutionist - but playing along with your post's assumptions on god - Who are you to say God doesn't approve? Maybe God is a sadistic nasty vile being that enjoys humanities strife and turmoil, starving children etc. It is said in your bible that he created mankind in his own image.

"Seems to me someone has things a little mixed up. Nice to see GOD doesn’t have that problem."


If you are so close to him and know his thoughts, then maybe you can tell me what exactly his problem is? Why does he stand idly by while so many children are starving? Why does he let the parents of 2 starving children keep breeding and have another 5 more to suffer?

Why? Why would he do that?


RE: Fee Will
By just4U on 7/13/2008 8:49:18 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps a better question is why would he interfere? Look at all the screwed up religious beliefs we have right now .. supposedly from divine interference.

Perhaps it's better to let us chart our own course and deal with what ever comes next when we leave this life. Perhaps we are still not at a point where we can cope with such realizations. Perhaps He/she/it/they interfere on a daily basis and we just don't realize it.

Who knows.. I don't think we do.


RE: Fee Will
By hiscross on 7/14/2008 11:59:32 AM , Rating: 1
The problem is Man, not GOD. GOD has provided guidance, to include, having his SON DIE for MAN SINS. So the real problem is man's SIN. GOD has never SINNED so the fix the problems you mentioned, then Man must come to terms with itself. Now I know what I just wrote is not popular, but that is not my problem. If you want GOD to make everything nice and peachy, then hang in there. He has a plan for that. The issue will then become those who don't or won't believe will have a bigger problem on their hand than they face today. So you see Free Will sounds Free, but the judgement cost dearly.


RE: Fee Will
By retrospooty on 7/14/2008 1:19:45 PM , Rating: 2
If its mans "sin" that how do you explain the starving children part? Surely an innocent child has not sinned? Why must so many millions of children suffer the excruciating pain of starvation? What is god's answer to that? Oprah?


RE: Fee Will
By hiscross on 7/14/2008 5:59:45 PM , Rating: 1
GOD will help them. Your real question should be is why does children have to suffer? It seems like an adult issue. The children are victims of sinful adults? My next question to you is, if you don't believe in GOD or have some issue with him, what are you doing about it? If you care, then do some caring.


RE: Fee Will
By retrospooty on 7/14/2008 6:18:53 PM , Rating: 2
I do care and do believe in being good to our fellow man, and doing good things in this life... and that there is something WAY beyond mankind's understanding in this universe- I just don't believe in the western concept of God, nor should any man be vain enough to claim to know God or his thoughts.


RE: Fee Will
By hiscross on 7/14/2008 9:43:33 PM , Rating: 1
I do respect your thoughts. I know GOD does, that why he gave us Free Will. If you can find something (other the one and only true GOD) that would send his only son for the soul purpose of dying for mankind so they had the opportunity to be saved, please let the world know. Maybe then the world can be saved. Until I learn of such a savior, then accepting Jesus as my LORD and Savior is the path of life I will continue to walk. He has never failed me. It's my hope you can have a relationship him as well. GOD BLESS.


cdesign proponentsists
By Suomynona on 7/12/2008 5:04:40 PM , Rating: 2
""Intelligent design ... allows scientific criticisms of Darwin's theory to be taught," said Discovery Institute fellow John West"

There is no scientific criticism of the theory of evolution (it's moved on a lot in the 150 years since Darwin published). You may as well attempt to criticise the theory of gravity or challenge the value of Pi.

Intelligent Design (biggest misnomer ever) has been absolutely proven to be re-labelled Creationism - http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/11/missin...

Once again Louisana provides more material for the world to believe that the USA is populated by religious retards.




RE: cdesign proponentsists
By Lakku on 7/12/2008 5:11:03 PM , Rating: 2
I just happen to think the world is populated by retards in general. It's just more fun to pick on Americans now a days!


RE: cdesign proponentsists
By Suomynona on 7/12/2008 5:37:08 PM , Rating: 2
There certainly are idiots in every corner of the planet, but it's only in the USA that the idiocy gets past school boards or is allowed by government.

Scientific literacy in the USA is closer third world than first:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/...


RE: cdesign proponentsists
By maximal on 7/12/2008 5:12:13 PM , Rating: 2
Actually some medieval middle-Eastern ruler tried, but failed, changing Pi to 3. Not sure he realized what he was doing; making every circle into a crescent.


RE: cdesign proponentsists
By Suomynona on 7/12/2008 5:45:05 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I heard that too. Maybe that's why the Middle East is still stuck in the Middle Ages in many respects?


RE: cdesign proponentsists
By maximal on 7/12/2008 5:50:58 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I guess so. I just hope once they make sense of circles they'll move on to greater things.


RE: cdesign proponentsists
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 6:45:41 PM , Rating: 2
"Once again Louisana provides more material for the world to believe that the USA is populated by religious retards."

The problem is not that the world "believes" that the USA is populated by religious retards, the problem is the USA IS populated by religious retards - alot of them. ;)

That reminds me of a funny one I heard on some show - in an argument between an evolutionist and a creationist... The evolutionist said - Its not a mystery why our sides hate each other. Your side hates our side because you think we think that you are stupid... Our side hates your side because you are stupid.


RE: cdesign proponentsists
By Suomynona on 7/13/2008 9:24:52 AM , Rating: 2
Nice. Copied for future use. :)


RE: cdesign proponentsists
By CSP on 7/13/2008 4:07:37 PM , Rating: 2
Hahahaha!
Good one! Definitely a keeper!
Emily Dickinson actually wrote a poem about the creationists of her time (and the fact that they would hypocritically go to doctors when sick, tho).
"Religion is a lovely thing
when gentlemen can see.
But a microscope is a handy thing
in an emergency."


ID curriculum?
By commissar12 on 7/12/2008 3:45:13 PM , Rating: 3
what would be the ID curriculum, what is there to teach the kids after you get past the intelligent designer part? it seems to me that there isn't any material for classes, tests or quizzes because no one is studying ID - there isn't anything to study, there are no papers or publications based on research and backed up by data.

In the end it doesn't really matter, the US will slowly decline from its position as world leader, and countries like china will start to gain more influence, try to imagine 100 years in the past and 100 years in the future. where is the British empire? i think the US will become something like a Christian Saudi Arabia.




RE: ID curriculum?
By pattycake0147 on 7/12/2008 3:54:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
i think the US will become something like a Christian Saudi Arabia.


That's big load of crap. Here in Indiana we recently had a license plate with the nation's motto on in. "In God We Trust" The plate was not forced on anybody but rather just offered as an option for those that chose to have it. However, somebody was "offended" by our nations motto on a license plate so now you can't get one even if you ask. If anything I believe the U.S. is getting further from it's roots in Christianity. Keep in mind that while the founding fathers were forming our country that opened everyday in prayer. Oh and could you please explain to me how teaching somebody a different theory on the origin of life make the U.S. a "Christian Saudi Arabia.


RE: ID curriculum?
By Lakku on 7/12/2008 5:04:19 PM , Rating: 3
Good, that license plate shouldn't even exist. This country was founded to be FREE from religious persecution and so that we all would be free to practice what religion we desired. NO religion would be endorsed by the federal or local governments. That effin motto came out in 1956, when Eisenhower deemed it our nations motto, because apparently E Plurubus Unum wasn't good enough. So take your God, take your stupid motto, and take your so called christianity and go hang yourself with a rope, but I won't force you too, like so many of your kind did early in this country, what with the mormons, quakers, native americans and other variations of people, that people like YOU didn't agree with. Yes it's a simplified overview, but the majority quickly displaced the minority and once again, Christian zealots ran the show.

So in short, we were NOT FOUNDED ON A DAMN BASE OF CHRISTIANITY. It just so happened most of them, if not all, were Christians and/or Free Masons, who just believe in a higher beign. Once again, piss off and keep your religion and religious motto to yourselves and out of public view.


RE: ID curriculum?
By pattycake0147 on 7/13/2008 7:11:21 AM , Rating: 2
I think you missed the point the plate was a free choice that was stripped from us. I would have no problem if there was one for Jews Muslims etc. My complaint lies in the fact that there was a choice until somebody decided they didn't like it and sought to suppress the people that did. That's borderline persecution if you ask me. I have a view and I am supposed to be free to express it in the country.


RE: ID curriculum?
By jeff834 on 7/13/2008 12:54:48 PM , Rating: 3
You have a choice to get a bumper sticker made by a third party that says "In God we trust". The government didn't take that choice away from you, you are absolutely and totally free to express your view. Feel free to get a bumper sticker that says "lick my balls" too if you like, but that shouldn't be written on a license plate. The point is that the government shouldn't put it on license plates at all. It shouldn't be on money anymore either, but unfortunately federal fights are a lot harder to win than state ones.


RE: ID curriculum?
By CSP on 7/13/2008 3:39:40 PM , Rating: 2
LOL!
I want a bumper sticker that says "lick my balls..."
Thanks for the laugh, J.
You know, the more I read here, the more I am beginning to think we should let the ignorant neanderthals of LA teach their offspring anything they want, and then let natural selection do its work....eventually, we can at least use 'em for spare parts.


RE: ID curriculum?
By Ryanman on 7/13/2008 3:18:49 AM , Rating: 2
actually, you idiot, nearly all the forefathers were deists. Which was as atheist as you could get back then and not be burned at the stake by psychos.

Sorry chum, the US goverment isn't founded on christian principles - It's based on universal morality and freedom.


@Gastrian
By kelmerp on 7/12/2008 2:31:45 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is: what is science? What is the scientific method?

Does Creationism/ID belong in a science class? If so, then any religious/non-science can be taught in science class and you might as well call it something different.

If it's up to the teacher's discretion, and the teacher is a Scientologist, should he/she be allowed to teach us about Xenu? What if I want to teach the theory that everything that happens, happens because of invisible creatures that make it happen that way? etc etc etc....




RE: @Gastrian
By Borkil on 7/12/2008 3:01:06 PM , Rating: 5
well kids would have to pay before they can learn about scientology


RE: @Gastrian
By Gastrian on 7/13/2008 10:25:37 AM , Rating: 2
Kelmerp, ID (I make a distinction between that and creationism) should be taught as a part of science to allow objectivity and free thinking.

Not sure whether you could call me an ID believer but I lean more towards controlled evolution than natural evolution but I still accept evolution as a scientific process.

When I did Geography for my GCSE (compulsory British exam to finish off the school process at 15/16yrs old) we were taught basic principles, a few opposing ones as well, and as part of the exam we were giving some information and had to apply these principles to that information, make a choice as to which opposing principles we used and explain why. Science on the other hand is taught as right or wrong, theories are taught as truth and acknowledging opposing theories will give you zero points for the question.

Surely of all the subjects being taught Science should be the one most open to free thinking? Is it really learning if your learning is biased towards a pre-dertemined answer using only evidence to support that answer and neglecting evidence that argues against it?

Science at basic levels should stay away from over-simplifying complex topics such as evolution and focus more on provable components such as survival of the fitteset and gentic diversifcation within a given gene pool. Once these concepts have been embedded then you can look at the philosophical diferences between it being naturally occuring and a guided process. Also by non-simplifying it at a basic stage and seperating the theory of evolution from the science of evolution you can get awy from the misconceptions that exist about evolution.


Idiotic
By Freddo on 7/12/2008 3:16:10 PM , Rating: 1
They gonna tell the children the earth is flat soon too?




RE: Idiotic
By mdogs444 on 7/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: Idiotic
By CSP on 7/12/2008 10:06:09 PM , Rating: 3
Ahhhh...now they show their true colors...keep our kids in the dark about science so they will continue to be ignorant racists and homophobes.


RE: Idiotic
By zsdersw on 7/13/2008 8:53:27 AM , Rating: 2
Awash in a field of strawmen again, I see..


Uninteligent Design
By commissar12 on 7/13/2008 1:00:42 AM , Rating: 2
how about this new Theory - UnInteligent Design - ID has the connotation that the designer was perfect and made no mistakes when creating everything, but that doesnt hold up too well, misscarriages are my favorite examle or just look at that platipus. UnInteligent design makes more sence, the desinger has some knowlege, but it was more like throwing a bunch of ingredients into a pot and stiring it up

vote for UID in your public schools




RE: Uninteligent Design
By oopyseohs on 7/13/2008 1:17:41 PM , Rating: 2
RAmen.


Teaching Intelligent Design
By Hakuryu on 7/12/2008 2:35:05 PM , Rating: 2
This issue always has me scratching my head. You can describe evolution, giving examples of changes in living beings, but how exactly do you teach intelligent design?

What more do you need to know other than 'God created all life' to understand what intelligent design is about? Does it take a semester or even a school year to get that simple idea across to students? After stating what it is about, there really isn't anything else to say; you cant back it up with proof, and the only sources are religious texts.




Adding fuel to the fire
By maximal on 7/12/2008 4:44:03 PM , Rating: 2
Sure teach ID in schools, education in the US is circling the drain anyway. But for the love of reason at least relegate it to a non-science class like philosophy or something, top that off with a healthy dose of Nietzsche and Machiavelli and you'll have something you can really be proud off: a bunch of suicidal egomaniacs who won't be able to distinguish between reality and illusion.




It's pretty simple....
By JonnyDough on 7/12/2008 6:17:09 PM , Rating: 2
EVOLUTION takes place in the natural world. Creation only takes place via our imaginations. When it comes to THE ORIGINS OF LIFE there is only speculation, as we will likely never be able to prove where and how life started (short of an answer from "God."

All we have to go on is controversial evidence, evidence which we can only prove based on the standards of science we have which are based upon the standards we have come to understand. Regardless of anything we "know" we are still limited by our understanding. We can only guess as to where this "evidence" points.

Our entire reality is only as we perceive it to be. The old adage of "I think, therefore I am" does not really work. You cannot say that I fly, therefore I am an airplane, or "I breathe, therefore am I a human being." Just because you think that you think, does not mean that you do indeed think since no other form of life is willing to concur with you. You have no second opinion except for other human beings which share your idea. We do not have spirits floating around that are telling us we exist, or aliens telling us that we do really exist. It means that you think that you think, since the only basis for saying so is the very thing that is doing the thinking. Wouldn't a tree also choose to believe that it does indeed exist if it had capability to do so? What life force does not put itself first? Few bacteria are willing to sacrifice themselves for nothing. No, they strive to exist. That is the first and foremost function of life. Survival. Without the instinct and purpose of survival life no longer is. It is this same natural instinct found in every life form that causes human beings to desire an afterlife. Unfortunately, we are just as nature is. Limited. If we weren't we'd all be immortal, Gods.

The argument of "I think therefore I am" is akin to suing the government in a government court. It just doesn't work, because the judge works for the government and the court is set up by the government. Sure, it's a government you've elected - but that is assuming that the government really cares about you once they've been elected. Every government will eventually turn to corruption. People are simply foolhardy when it comes to believing that a government is pure and always has been. Power corrupts. In the end people cannot be managed because they will always have a mind of their own, and will never agree with everything you choose for them. Any man willing to die for his government is a fool, and any man willing to die protecting his family is valiant. But when you go beyond rising up against your own government or an INVADING force then you have just become a part of a war party with an agenda and are no longer defending your home. Where do your draw YOUR home borders? What would you do to fight an invading force, say, if you were an Iraqi?

My point to all this, aside from my political rambling - is that you cannot argue against evolution, because you can watch it happen in real time. You cannot see intelligent design happening by any being greater than ourselves. If you do, invite me to see it too please. I'd like to collect data. Any argument based on "it's true, you just have to believe" is no argument at all. It is a farce.

If I tell you that it's been just discovered that everything we eat except for tomatoes gives us cancer, would you believe me? Or would you want scientific proof? What if I presented you with an old book full of stories that had a few historical facts in it to help prove my point, yet my main argument was that you just had to believe me, or you would certainly perish soon of cancer? Would you believe me?

Religion makes about as much sense, yet BILLIONS of people INSIST that God exists. Why? Because of their human emotions and fears, because of their lack of education, understanding, and data. Because of a need to believe in more and their inability to accept death. Because they are products of their environments, and as children they were brainwashed with "truth." Perhaps it is nearing time for the world to come to terms with what religion really is.

It is my firm believe that religion is legendary superstition from a time before we knew squat about much of anything - our world, the stars, ourselves. It is an ignorant misunderstanding that feeds on our the nature of what we are, on the hundreds of thousands of years of not understanding ourselves and world - it is the only answers we were able to drum up at the time. That is changing, with every archaeological dig, with every astronomical discovery and explanation, with every medical advancement...the world is being presented with more data and a demand to answer the new proof that is being presented.

May we continue to leave the dark ages of ignorance and misunderstanding behind, and continue to understand the universe and ourselves better with each passing day. Amen.




conscious puddle metaphor
By CSP on 7/12/2008 7:17:20 PM , Rating: 2
I like this metaphor (actually a simile) for intelligent design: Intelligent design supporters are like puddles with consciousness. Once upon a time, there was a pot hole. Then, it rained really hard. Rain filled the pothole. Now, if the puddle that filled the pothole could think, it might think, "wow, I fit this pothole perfectly! It must have be specially designed for ME! It must be the work of an intelligent designer..." That is the Discovery Institute and its theory for ya! For every three dollars our more "rational" northern, etc., states pay in taxes, they get only one dollar back. For every dollar backwater places like LA put in, they get over THREE back! Now that they are pushing their kids to be even more ignorant, we will not only have to support them with even more fed money, but we'll have to send them doctors, too...they should have their electoral votes curtailed until they can at least come close to supporting themselves! Then they might think twice about this foolishness.




?
By AlmostExAMD on 7/12/2008 10:11:14 PM , Rating: 2
If all human life ceased to exist tomorrow would there still be a god?
There would be none of you left here to believe, Yet life would still churn along, It's all in your head!




This just pisses me off
By Chosonman on 7/12/2008 11:44:26 PM , Rating: 2
In a time where we need to teach our kids how to think for themselves and use the rules science and reason to make the right decisions there's a group of backwards people in this country that want to force feed our kids a junk that belong in the philosophy and religious books and pass it off as science. You wonder why there are so many religiously based conflicts in this world.




backward
By wvh on 7/13/2008 12:58:21 AM , Rating: 2
It's fun to laugh with nations like Iran who still haven't emerged from the dark ages. But when supposedly developed nations or (parts thereof) go back voluntarily to blind faith dogma in the one place that's meant for education and critical thinking, that's damn scary.

The world is too small nowadays to have people go back to their dangerously fundamentalistic world views void of any reason or logic.

Since the army is full of gullible authoritarian blank/white blind faith types, we can only hope the fundamentalists kill each other in a nice big clash of civilisations so the rest of us can live on without those who quite literally discard evolution.

This news is embarrassing.




US educational standards
By croc on 7/13/2008 1:02:29 AM , Rating: 2
Judging by the grammer, punctuation, syntax and overall logic (or lack of) contained in the responses to this article, the US standards of education are already so low that teaching this bit of creationism as scientific fact really wouldn't / couldn't lower the standards any further.




I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT
By sgw2n5 on 7/13/2008 1:24:25 AM , Rating: 2
This thread is freakin chock full of unadulterated WIN.

Tax monies given to schools to teach science, should be used to teach science. Everything in evolutionary theory stands up against the scientific method, and all submitted evidence (which there is a metric @ss ton of) has been rigorously peer reviewed and cross supported. Biochemical evidence of evolution perfectly compliments paleontological evidence of evolution, as does radiometric dating, physiology, geology, ecology, and microbiology.

ID (creationism) is NOT science, never will be. It has absolutely no place in a science classroom. That being said, I have no problem with it being taught in a metaphysics or theology class.

Real science trumps psuedo-science. Quit trying to pass this ID garbage off as science.

(for a well cited, and well researched take on the debate, watch videos 1-11).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnJX68ELbAY&NR=1





survival of the fittest?
By mahax on 7/13/2008 5:24:20 AM , Rating: 2
I always tought evolution was about the survival of the fittest. That's not random at all. Like a never ending trial and error session of nature. The variations may be random but when the last one is left standing, that's not random anymore. That's the tried and true one. All living things dont exist because of a random quirck or a higher force, they simply exist because they _can_. Because they didn't get eaten, hurt or sick. It's just result of the laws of physics.




hmm
By Silver2k7 on 7/13/2008 11:26:15 AM , Rating: 2
So what about the idea that Aliens genetically altered neanderthals in africa to work as slaves in the mines, and thats how humans where created..

lol can't remember whos idea this was.. but this idea is probably as sound as the ID idea until we get some actual proof one way or the other =)




creationists and slavery
By CSP on 7/13/2008 6:48:02 PM , Rating: 2
One of the most forthright opponents of slavery was Charles Darwin. Unlike his creationist opponent, the leading American zoologist Louis Agassiz, who argued that the races had been separately created. To the great comfort of Southern slaveowners.




Science as myth
By crafty on 7/14/2008 2:12:05 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think teaching creation myth as science is a good idea. Leave it to the comparative religion class. But oh well critical thinking isn't good to teach anyways in public schools. If it were our elected leaders couldn't get away with killing us and stealing our money for their corporate patrons.




Well, whaddya know...
By clovell on 7/14/2008 11:34:34 AM , Rating: 2
I actually took Dr. Forrest for a philosophy class long ago, and she is quite a firebrand when it comes to this sort of thing.

I always found Dr. Forrest to pull semantic shenanigans, as she often used many near-term, observable, biological examples of evolution - which is great, but it's a bit of a stretch to equivocate that to the point where precludes, in any way, the idea of intelligent design.

I mean, why is it assumed that there is a necessarily exclusive relationship between the two ideas? Is it any wonder faith and reason cannot coexist when either one, on its own, fails to stand?

^ Conversations you have at the bar when the Cubs are losing.




Mention, don't teach
By karkas on 7/14/2008 4:59:02 PM , Rating: 2
I don't want to see ID taught alongside evolution in schools. However, I don't think Darwin should shake in his grave because 1 or 2 lessons seek to expose some holes or unexplained aspects of macroevolutionary theory. If a theory is confident it should allow debate... not stiffle it.




By phxfreddy on 7/13/2008 1:18:11 PM , Rating: 1
I am totally atheist and because of this I spot religions easily.

Man Made Global Warming fits the bill. If they teach MMGW and you do not complain ...then do not complain about creationism being taught there also because that is what you buy when you allow political indoctrinations to occur in the school.

Personally I find the christians less irritating because they do not advocate enslaving me through control of energy production taxes.

Tough luck old boy...you just can not have it both ways. You get either rationality or superstition but not both.

To think otherwise is pure hubris and egomania.




Why do the Evolutionists Care?
By Gladius777 on 7/13/2008 11:32:05 PM , Rating: 1
It amazes me that there is such stiff opposition to I.D. What difference does it make? Scientists researching biology, physics, chemistry etc. got on just fine before evolution and its sister eugenics came along. The only job you won’t have an education basis for, is evolutionary biology, which is just a bloated monster that exists for its own sake.

Evolutionary "Science" is the ultimate bloated bureaucracy that has no purpose except its own continued existence. It hasn't made my life any better and it can't! Surely if Evolution is true, the Evolutionists just need to make sure that they're breeding a plenty and there superior genes (hey they're intelligent enough to believe in evolution!!?) will do the rest. Christians pay taxes as well, so why should we just have to put up with, our tax dollars being wasted on Darwin's garbage when D.E.rs don't want to pay for I.D.?

The D.E.rs have signed on to the death to man mantra, and only have to wait for the unruly beast to devour them, but hey whatever rocks your boat......have a nice life and may the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you all and open your eyes to the reality of this world.




Another nail in the coffin of DailyTech
By MourningDailyTech on 7/11/08, Rating: -1
By svenkesd on 7/11/2008 8:15:00 AM , Rating: 2
Do you frequent websites with fake journalists for all your news or just your tech news?


About Itelligent Design
By Janooo on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: About Itelligent Design
By commissar12 on 7/13/2008 1:07:46 AM , Rating: 2
if you where an intelligent designer would you allow a faulty product to exist? the only reason imperfect cars, operating systems, etc. exist for humans is that we have to serve a user-base market. why would an all-powerful intelligent designer allow for errors, it doesnt make sence to have a car that breaks down, or needs repairs a truly intelligent designer would make something perfect, that either lasts forever, or for a set amount of time. what would be the point otherwise? its like having a factory that makes cars, except they all dont run, its not good design


YOU are so very sad.
By atreyu on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: YOU are so very sad.
By Yossarian22 on 7/13/2008 12:01:26 AM , Rating: 2
What garbage.

Complexity does not point to design at all, especially since complexity is an essentially meaningless word in a debate. How do you plan on quantifying this complexity?
Anyhow...
Evolution is not a truly random process. The specific genes that come up are random, but trend of a populations gene pool is never totally random. Appealing to entropy points more towards your misunderstanding of evolution than of any flaws in Darwinism. Your strawman is also quite terrible. Do you see computers regularly reproducing with differing traits and competing for limited power?

Besides the complete and utter absence of grammar in your post, you also misused the "a prior", something that annoys me greatly. Rejection "a priori" is the rough equivalent to "rejection by logic alone". Logic, in and of itself, does not reject the concept of relative time. A priori does not mean common sense at all. Common sense is a mixture of deductive and inductive processes.


RE: YOU are so very sad.
By zsdersw on 7/13/2008 8:51:44 AM , Rating: 2
The central problem with ID as a matter to be taught in science classes is that it's a "God in the gaps" approach. It's basically saying that anything we cannot currently explain through science *must* be the work of an intelligence akin to that of a God.. and that premise is many things, but scientific it is not.


RE: YOU are so very sad.
By just4U on 7/13/2008 9:18:04 PM , Rating: 2
Then teach theology in the classroom right alongside of science. That way no religious group can claimed to be favored over another in the classroom.


Whats the problem?
By Gastrian on 7/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: Whats the problem?
By DeltaRage on 7/12/2008 2:29:44 PM , Rating: 3
I agree. If creationism/ID was a scientific theory, it should be taught alongside evolution. Since it's not sceince, creationism/ID shouldn't be taught in science class.


RE: Whats the problem?
By StevoLincolnite on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Whats the problem?
By Clauzii on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Whats the problem?
By Ticholo on 7/12/2008 3:25:17 PM , Rating: 4
Only you can't classify both as views and call it a day.
Evolution has a long scientific record while creationism is indeed more of a view than scientific analysis.
That's why you can't treat both as equals in regard to freedom of choice.
Should medics study about miracles and be allowed to prescribe prayer?


RE: Whats the problem?
By mdogs444 on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: Whats the problem?
By Ticholo on 7/12/2008 3:58:36 PM , Rating: 2
That's not the same as I was saying.
It's not like they're actually prescribing prayer as a treatment.
And meeting grieving or concerned parents/relatives with a priest is definitely not the same. It could be a psychologist and just because there isn't a readily apparent religious belief in that case, the function remains pretty much the same.
I'm not against having religious beliefs.


RE: Whats the problem?
By akugami on 7/12/2008 4:22:37 PM , Rating: 2
A doctor, or priest, telling the family to pray is a way for the family of the injured/sick to focus on something other than impending doom. For many families, it is therapeutic to pray, even for those that do not believe in a higher power.

From what little I know of Intelligent Design, most of it seems centered on wholesale fabrication. I am not trying to criticize anyone for believing in a God or other higher power but the fact remains that ID has no basis in scientific fact and can not be tested through science to see if it is correct or not.

Some of the explanations which we attribute to natural selection, survival of the fittest, or just plain luck in evolution are said to be designed by some higher power. The problem is, where is the proof? ID backers have only one explanation and in the end it is to take it on faith. For all the proof that was presented we could have just as easily said ancient aliens from long long ago seeded the earth and has guided the creation of all life forms on earth and we are a cosmic soap box show to them. Ridiculous? Sure, but considering all the proof ID has provided, it is just as valid as ID.


RE: Whats the problem?
By Suomynona on 7/12/2008 5:23:13 PM , Rating: 3
Jesus! I hope I never get one of those doctors.

Praying to an imaginary god is as effective as sacrificing goats for the benefit of Zeus.


RE: Whats the problem?
By TSS on 7/12/2008 5:17:12 PM , Rating: 2
well technically, neither is a view, both are beliefs.

"creationism is indeed more of a view then a scientific analysis" is looking at creationism from the scientific view. we do that because we believe in science and the explanations it offers. from the ID view, science offers no explanation for "the creator" and as such, is flawed. heck, in this case science is the narrowminded party, while often religion is in the religion vs science debate. after all, evolution has no room for ID while ID does have room for evolution.

the problem here is though what it'll be used for. we all know that intelligent design will be used as an explanation for god. while evolution will be used to disprove god, or atleast his involvement into the creation of life. the problem isn't the debate but how fierce each participent can get in defending his/her beliefs. when one is able to detach themselves from their belief and is able to look at it with the same skepticism as the opposing beliefs, then it's a view.

in a perfect world you could classify both as views, not beliefs. only this world is far from perfect.

what i'd find most ironic though is if we find evidence on mars that an alien civilization started evolution on earth after developing it in a laboratory. then we'd have the awnser and still be able to bicker about scientology, science and ID for the rest of eternity.

for those of you interested, i'll be on science's side.


RE: Whats the problem?
By Suomynona on 7/12/2008 5:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
You're right - that's teach *all* of the competing theories. Flying Spaghetti Monster, Leprechaun Creation, Pink Elephant Theory, etc., etc. - they're all equally scientific as Creationism.


RE: Whats the problem?
By Brainonska511 on 7/12/2008 3:37:20 PM , Rating: 2
Science needs to be taught in science class. Science is s specific way of looking at the world - forming ideas based on experimentation and observation and then reinforcing those hypothesizes with repeatable results. Additionally, scientific hypothesizes and theories are falsifiable. Intelligent Design/Creationism can never be considered science because it fails both the ability to observe and the ability to prove them wrong.

Additionally, there is no controversy in science between Evolution and Intelligent Design, so there is nothing "on the fence" to be taught. If anything, the only "controversy" that might exist is slightly varying views on the very specific parts of evolutionary theory - stuff that would normally not be taught at a high school level.


RE: Whats the problem?
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 3:36:41 PM , Rating: 2
"I agree. If creationism/ID was a scientific theory, it should be taught alongside evolution. Since it's not sceince, creationism/ID shouldn't be taught in science class."

I dont have any issues with ID being taught, but most posters here today seem to think that crationism and ID are the same - they are not.

Evolution - The idea that we all evolved from lower lifeforms and it happened randomly

Intelligent design - The idea that we all evolved from lower lifeforms and it was somehow guided by a higher intellegence than we currently understand.

Creationism - The idea that we were zapped into existance 7-8000 years ago by an all powerful god.

Well, Science has proven that evolution happened, but we truly dont know how it started in the first place. So in reality ID and evolutionism are very close, and creationism is far different. Anyone that believes in ID or evolution is at least going by facts that we know so far. Anyone that believes in creationsim is an uneducated, ignorant bookburning christian whako.


RE: Whats the problem?
By Brainonska511 on 7/12/2008 3:42:28 PM , Rating: 1
Evolution and Intelligent Design are not close at all. One is science and one is bullsh1t. Intelligent design is not falsifiable, so it can never be science. In fact, intelligent design is just a fancy way of saying creationism without using "God". The textbook for ID basically took a creationism textbook and removed all references to God and replaced them with an intelligent designer.

Also, evolution and creationism sort of deal with two different issues. Evolution only explains how life came from point A to point D. Creationism deals with the origin of life, which is more along the route of the hypothesizes of biogenesis.


RE: Whats the problem?
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 3:52:21 PM , Rating: 2