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Opponents to the legislation say this puts church back into schools

On May 21, 2008, Barbara Forrest, a professor of philosophy at Southern Louisiana University, testified in the Louisiana state legislature on the dangers hidden in the State’s Science Education Act.

According to Forrest, the Act allows teachers and school boards across the state to teach non-scientific alternatives to evolution including ideas related to Intelligent Design (ID). Forrest says the bill is a backhanded way to get creationism back into schools.

She states the wording of the Act names evolution along with global warming, the origins of human life and human cloning as worthy of “open and objective discussion” -- suggesting that evolution is scientifically controversial topic.

A U.S. Supreme Court case in 1987 barred creationism from being taught in U.S. public schools. The justices ruled state aid to religious teachings violated the Establishment Clause of First Amendment. Since then, the Seattle-based Discovery Institute has successfully lobbied that intelligent design is not only scientifically sound, but also that it differs from creationism barred from schools.

Despite Forrest’s testimony, the bill passed easily in Louisiana with a majority House vote of 94 to 3, followed unanimously in the State Senate. Louisiana's conservative Christian governor Piyush Jindal signed the bill, making it law on June 28.

Supporters of evolution say that the new legislation is nothing more than a new maneuver in the war to challenge the validity of Darwinian evolution. Forrest was also a figure in a 2005 trial in Dover, where she presented leaked Discovery Institute documents that demonstrated intelligent design school books were in fact creationist schoolbooks with the names replaced. 

Immediately following Forrest's comments to New Scientist, the Discovery Institute wrote a blog on its Evolution News website, claiming Forrest and the publication needed "a reality check."

"Intelligent design is currently not in the Louisiana state science standards and so could not be taught. But this allows scientific criticisms of Darwin's theory to be taught," said Discovery Institute fellow John West in a recent Reuters interview.



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So very sad...
By Sandok on 7/11/2008 8:03:54 AM , Rating: 4
Why do Church goers try and do this? This is just the ultimate form of stupidity in my eyes...

If evolution is not "taught" in Church, why should "creationism" be taught in PUBLIC SECULAR schools?

Oh well, then again, if Louisiana wants to make its future generation of students a bit more naive and clueless than the other States, so be it!




RE: So very sad...
By Proteusza on 7/11/2008 8:07:08 AM , Rating: 4
Yeah.

Besides, everyone knows that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is to blame, that and the beer it drank the night before creation.


RE: So very sad...
By Ticholo on 7/12/2008 3:03:32 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, hey, hey!!! Don't go around using the C-word! It's Intelligent Design. It's scientific-y!


RE: So very sad...
RE: So very sad...
By Ryanman on 7/13/2008 3:05:19 AM , Rating: 4
what's really funny about this is how the textbook publisher lobbied both houses for the passing of this law. They're going to make a killing off selling these books to a state who can't afford to keep its children educated already.

Congratz conservatives. Your righteous "brainwashing from birth" tactic succeeded in yet another compulsory public institution. I hope you're proud.


RE: So very sad...
By Pavelyoung on 7/13/2008 3:22:12 AM , Rating: 1
Excuse me, don't lump all of us in with the religious zealots.


RE: So very sad...
By bodar on 7/13/2008 3:43:32 AM , Rating: 3
RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 2:14:16 PM , Rating: 3
Huh? "libgays?" LOL! You make so little sense, I am wondering if you went to school in Louisiana!
Amazing acrobatic attempt to turn this around and blame the gays (did gays cause Katrina, and the broken levis...or was that poor education that rendered a lack of engineers). Ya know I think the cubs lost the playoffs last year because pf the gays too--hahahaha! Dumb*ss conservanazi. See, we can call names like a five year old, too...face it, this is another religious right conservative disaster. Or maybe you can blame it one terrorists..? Hahaha


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/17/2008 3:28:44 PM , Rating: 2
When I use the term GAY I use it in the sense of stupid or duface. Liberals ( not libertarians ) basically believe in coercive government of all types.

If government were opt in like web 2.0 websites then I would say knock yourself out...just leave me out ! ... and you can pay for what you want...and again I am not forced to help pay for your libgay programs


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 2:19:27 PM , Rating: 5
Oh, and by the way, the majority of LA students who were displaced from Katrina to Texas had to commence their education a full two grades behind in order to catch up to their Texas counterparts--schools in LA already being that poor--but maybe you can figure out how to blame that on the gays too? Or the libs?


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/17/2008 3:30:49 PM , Rating: 2
I suppose you guys think the following also

cool = cold
phat = fat

... get a clue lib.(liberal == dumb by definition ...THAT you can take literally )


RE: So very sad...
By Laughing all the way 2220 on 7/14/2008 8:19:36 PM , Rating: 1
You know if you think about it- the religious crowd is paying the same amount of taxes to keep those public schools open, keep those sports programs going, uniforms and equipment, teachers salaries etc., etc., etc. You'd think they could have an equal say in what their children get taught. For you non-educated, highly opinionated that think you know what goes on in public schools wake up. It's not what you think. Your average 10th grader 10 years ago would test higher than your high school graduate today. And the decline goes on....

Maybe you haven't heard the commercial played on national radio- "When America fails to place first in the Olympics we feel angry. When we fail to place second we feel cheated. When we fail to place third we feel disgusted. When we place 19th overall in international math tests, nobody says a word."

And yes there are 36 other countries that have better educational systems than our own. That's today folks.

Up until the 1800's, when America was a predominantly Christian nation, people would flock from all over the world to attend Harvard (a Christian College founded 1636), Yale (a Christian College founded 1701) and Princeton (a Christian College founded 1746) we were #1.

That all changed in 1867 with the creation of the Department of Education and the heavy influence of Melville Dewey (stop pretending you know who he is because only the really educated would know. For those of you who should have payed attention in class he is the founder of the dewey decimal system)(heck for those of you who were in public school you might not even know what that is- tsk, tsk).

Almost immediately they began the public school system in which there was no place for God. They cried out "Separation of Church and State!" The First Amendment, designed to protect us from a national religion (mandating eveyone had to be of one religion), was being used to separate God and the people in education (they said just teaching about God was in fact mandating everyone to religion), something which the Founding Fathers never intended.

From that day until now we have steadily declined so that we aren't even in the top 30. What a shame.

You say what's wrong with the public schools? Huh, what's right with it? I know people who graduated High School here in America and they can't even spell "house" ???
Come on people- wake up!

Below is the facts and addresses:

http://www.timss.org/

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/317/...
News Focus
EDUCATION RESEARCH:
U.S. Says No to Next Global Test of Advanced Math, Science Students
Jeffrey Mervis

After U.S. high school students did poorly on the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study in 1995, the government has decided not to participate in another version to be given next year.

We did so poorly we're not even going to participate in testing with the rest of the world anymore! What an outrage!!! And if you look at the data, we were in the middle of world scores for the 4th thru 8th grades. Now we are 19th, behind friggin' Lithuania, FRIGGIN' Lithuania!!!


RE: So very sad...
By rykerabel on 7/15/2008 3:04:30 PM , Rating: 2
So the answer is to teach Religion as science?

Oh yeah, that'll help... NOT.

I live in Louisiana, and the first time someone tries to teach my son's their religion, they will face a lawsuit. We'll see how well this "law" holds up to the U.S. Constitution.


RE: So very sad...
By Alexstarfire on 7/11/2008 8:09:16 AM , Rating: 3
The overwhelming passing of the law would suggest that that's already taken place.


RE: So very sad...
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 7/12/2008 2:45:51 PM , Rating: 3
It won't hold up in appeal. They tried this shit a few years ago and it was struck down in higher courts. This will be no different.


RE: So very sad...
By mdogs444 on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 3:38:16 PM , Rating: 5
I think you are misunderstanding the issue at hand. This would force all PUBLIC school children to learn ID regardless of the family's beliefs. Not all families that send their kids to public school are Christian.

Evolutionary theory (remember its not proven law although it is supported by an abundance of evidence) in public school; creationism in Sunday school if you so choose. Then kids can make up their own minds.

While the Louisiana legislature may have made its decision, the Federal courts will hold more authority in this matter.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By pattycake0147 on 7/12/2008 4:37:24 PM , Rating: 3
I love how he got rated up for saying creation is for whackjobs.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 4:44:50 PM , Rating: 2
Cuz... it is. Anyone that actually thinks that we were zapped into existence as told in western religions bible/tora/koran etc... is a complete boob and has no place in any intelligent conversation.


RE: So very sad...
By livelouddiefast on 7/12/2008 4:52:40 PM , Rating: 2
similarly... how about people that say a big bang started the universe? or that life came from non-life? or that man came from a single celled organism?

there are a lot of things we can't fully explain, so we need to have boobs on both sides work to hammer it out through name calling, others to reason, others to blow each other up, others to whine about on a message board. Welcome to human conflict.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 6:21:45 PM , Rating: 4
or that life came from non-life? or that man came from a single celled organism?

The big bang could probably be debated - Evolution cannot. It happened, and its proven by science. HOW it happened, can be debated, not the fact that it happened.


RE: So very sad...
By 4play on 7/12/2008 8:16:19 PM , Rating: 3
EXACTLY.

They never taught me in school HOW it happened, just that it did, and then they provided some evidence. They also never told me that big bang was how the universe was created either, just that it's a theory. Then again, I was schooled outside the US, maybe you guys all just have bad teachers that like to pass on theories as fact. Or I just lucked out with all the good ones :)


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/2008 1:53:41 PM , Rating: 2
Evolution occured and gave rise to man. After that man invented lying due to the inherent energy shortcuts that lying created.

Thus the religion of global warming was created in mans image.


RE: So very sad...
By GTVic on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By randomly on 7/13/2008 6:32:53 AM , Rating: 4
No you are confusing two closely related terms and arguing semantics. This is a common creationist word association trick. The existence of Evolution is considered a scientific Fact. There is also the Theory of Evolution which encompasses our best guesses and understanding of how exactly Evolution works in all it's myriad details and complexity. That's the theory part.

It's similar to Gravity and the Theory of Gravity. Just because there is a Theory of Gravity on how and why it works and what the implications are, details of which may even be incorrect, doesn't mean that Gravity itself doesn't exist. They are two seperate things.

Before Darwin 100% of scientists in the life sciences fields were creationists.

The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that now less than 1 out of a 1000 scientist actually involved in the fields does not believe in evolution. If you get outside the US with it's heavy population density of fundamentalists that drops to less than 1 scientist out of 2000.

To put that in perspective, there are 10 times more schizophrenics in the same population than scientists in those fields who believe in creationism/ID.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 12:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
"Since when, did I miss something? It is a theory ... repeat after me ... t h e o r y. "

Yes, you missed the past 150 years of research and science... It is a proven fact, it happened, right here on earth.
1. Geologic evidence proves it
2. Fossil evidence proves it
3. DNA analysis proves it
4. Bacterial evidence proves it

it is a fact repeat after me F A C T.

If you aren't aware of that fact, you are either not paying attention at all, or are dead from the neck up.


RE: So very sad...
By jeff834 on 7/13/2008 12:13:16 PM , Rating: 3
Every time there's an argument about evolution, people misunderstand the term "theory". In the scientific method a theory is a hypothesis that has evidence to back it up. Lots of evidence. In science gravity is still a theory but I'm sure you don't argue its validity. While evolution is not exactly something you can show in a lab (you can show the basic ideas of evolution, but you can't show humans and other primates had a common ancestor), there is quite a bit of DNA and fossil evidence to back it up. As a basic analogy if the criminal justice system used the scientific method, everyone convicted of a crime would only be guilty in theory no matter how much concrete evidence was provided.

The idea that people evolved from the same ancestor as other primates can never be totally proven because A no one was there and B it took a very very long time, but it is by far the best and most reasonable explanation we have based on the evidence. Creationism is absolutely ridiculous, and as for intelligent design, if that's what you believe good for you, but don't try to teach it to my kids in a public school. If someone wants their kids to learn that kind of thing there are plenty of private Christian schools more than willing to teach it to them.

It is my opinion that each time God is redefined to explain new things we've discovered, they get a little closer to redefining him out of existence. Hopefully then we can all get along with our lives instead of wasting time arguing about BS.


RE: So very sad...
By wvh on 7/13/2008 1:35:46 AM , Rating: 3
There's no evolution in blind faith. The whole point of dogmatic religion is not to evolve, to stay true and hold on to some old blind faith myths that anyone sane would discard as ancient folklore. There simply is no future for religion. To imply that "both sides" need to work out what really happened from their own respective viewpoints, is to ignore the nature of dogma.

These "both sides" are not equally preferable. You can't pitch religion and science as equally valuable options. Blind faith can kill; scientific conjecture doesn't. Blind faith is partial; science is neutral. Blind faith is conflict; science is debate. There are no Midwest atheists, Israeli atheists and Iranian atheists that want to bash each others skull because their own personal incarnation of science tells them the others are sinful infidels for following the wrong dogmatic rules. Only blind faith can do that, because it substitutes personal fiction for universal reality and then wants to enforce it in others.

The more room you give to fundamentalism (religion), the harder you will have to fight it later on. To (pretend to) respect it is misplaced and dangerous. It is NOT OK for people to believe nonsense because on any large enough scale, this will make your freedom and liberties melt like snow in hell.

It is of the utmost importance for democracy and the future of the human race that people learn to think critically in any and all aspects of life.


RE: So very sad...
By maverick85wd on 7/13/2008 6:12:00 PM , Rating: 1
excellently put! I'd give you a 6 if I could, that pretty much sums up my thoughts on religion in general.
quote:
It is NOT OK for people to believe nonsense because on any large enough scale, this will make your freedom and liberties melt like snow in hell.
Brilliant.

I kept trying to pick parts to quote, but ended up quoting almost the whole thing. The sentence I quoted above, though, is just too perfect. Bravo!


RE: So very sad...
By althaz on 7/13/2008 9:15:04 PM , Rating: 3
The thing you fail to take into account is that believing in God does not preclude clear thinking or critical appraisal.

I think it's pretty obvious that evolution has happened. I also think it's pretty obvious that anybody who takes half the stuff from the bible (especially the old testament) literally has been fairly poorly educated.

I was educated in a catholic school and even there we were taught that most of the things that happened in the bible are not to be taken literally. I should also point out that the amount students at my high school that believed in God was few. Certainly not the majority.

Intelligent design to me seems unlikely in the ways I have seen it explained, especially due to scientific models (which I would presume free from God's influence) of evolution displaying convergence. However it is not completely outside the realms of possibility that some higher power created the universe just so so that one day man would evolve on a little backwater planet in one of the spiral arms of a galaxy that would become known as the milky way and worship him. Not to say that that's what I believe, but it is impossible to prove/disprove or even provide evidence against or for.

Likewise there are dozens of other ways to believe and still be capable of thinking analytically. Being able to think critically is vital, I agree. Religion however has nothing to do with this one way or together.

I don't know how you were brought up but my faith (I'm catholic, duh) encourages discussion - nay, demands it. About everything, even our religion. We have only one ideal which overrides common sense, analysis and pragmatism - Treat others as you yourself wish to be treated. Without that particular piece of religious legislation (as I like to call it) we would of course be free to act in the manner that suits us best. Without that overriding demand there is no reason we cannot get ahead in life at the expense of others. Some other religions have similar ideals. Most promise a better afterlife or some merely a better future.

Alas most people in the west these days see only the attrocities comitted by the Church when the powerful forgot Christ's simple message. They see the serial killers that claim their delusions are God. They see terrorists blowing themselves to pieces in mass murders they claim are God's will.

These are not hallmarks of faith but of hate. Christianity gave the west a conscience which I like to think has moderated man's greed. To often it was used an excuse, as Islam is now, which has harmed its image. But there is a need for it still. If we have outgrown then need for religion then why are there still homeless on our streets? Why do we lie and cheat and steal from each other?

Amongst the more educated there are less who adhere to any religion. This is why there are few atheists who want to blow themselves up. Also because anybody deranged enough to do it needs somebody to blame. We don't like to take responsibilty for our actions. If religion did not exist the uneducated would still explode themselves but instead would claim it was for patriotism or that aliens made them do it. To blame religion is to not truly understand what is going on.

Without a doubt our educations systems, especially in poorer countries must be improved. Clear thinking and rationality must be the norm rather than the exception. In that I agree.

Religion though is no hindrance to this manner of thinking. In fact it's an important part of it. With knowledge comes power and with power must come morality - otherwise greed will become our only religion.


RE: So very sad...
By dever on 7/14/2008 7:20:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Treat others as you yourself wish to be treated. Without that particular piece of religious legislation (as I like to call it) we would of course be free to act in the manner that suits us best.
quote:
With knowledge comes power and with power must come morality - otherwise greed will become our only religion.
You can think of this "golden rule" as having real consequences because it reflects a natural law... there are long term consequences to treating other with respect or with disdain.

Without invoking supernatural interference, you can see the law as a observation of what naturally occurs when you behave as a boob.

With this in mind, it's quite possible that there is no conflict between "greed" and the golden rule. If you're intelligent, you'll realize that there are detrimental effects of treating others badly.

The ultimate interpretation of the golden rule would be to uphold individual freedoms -- political, civil, economic -- to allow everyone to persue their own interests as long as they do not infringe on the freedoms of others. Some might define that as promoting greed. Maybe. I don't see the conflict.

So, question... if I want, above all else, to retain personal liberties, wouldn't the golden rule demand that I promote everyone's personal liberties? In other words, doesn't the golden rule suggest that I promote greed?


RE: So very sad...
By daftrok on 7/17/2008 6:22:54 PM , Rating: 2
Hey I just read you long time ago comment on the silicon womb. So you're telling me that your wife would rather go through 36 hours of labor and then have the baby instead of just having a baby pain free? Are you a woman that goes through a monthly cycle that makes you bleed for a week? How about giving birth to a child first and then saying bullsh*t like that.


RE: So very sad...
By Clauzii on 7/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/12/2008 6:19:36 PM , Rating: 2
Not exactly... Bang! then 13 billion years later life evolved on Earth is not exactly a "zap", one is evolution, the other is a magical being.


RE: So very sad...
By Clauzii on 7/12/2008 8:17:13 PM , Rating: 1
Evolution wouldn't exist if it weren't for Big Bang.


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 12:14:04 PM , Rating: 2
we dont know that for 100% sure - Big Bang is a theory, it is what most scientists believe happened based on residual noise and the fact that the universe is expanding and other facts as well. Evolution is a fact, based on factual evidence found all over the earth, and in our DNA.


RE: So very sad...
By Clauzii on 7/13/2008 3:28:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I see Your point, and thinking of it, how could even Big Bang have happened without some evolvement involved?!


RE: So very sad...
By retrospooty on 7/13/2008 4:21:58 PM , Rating: 2
I also think about what was there before the big bang... and what lies beyond our known universe. There are 100's of billions of stars in our galaxy, and 100's of billions of galaxies in the universe, as far out as our best telescopes can see as of today. It would be foolish to think that it all ends there, and there aren't possibly 100's of billions of other universes just like ours. What we know, is infinitely smaller than what we don't know.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:49:35 PM , Rating: 2
It's because the whole creationism argument falls apart when analyzed with critical thinking. This whole argument seems really silly to me.

There is no push to teach religion in public schools in my country, whenever I see this sort of stuff I wonder if these people have lost their minds.


RE: So very sad...
By murphyslabrat on 7/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 11:30:03 PM , Rating: 3
The heresy you speak of is about couple doozies like whether the Earth is round and whether the Earth is the center of the universe. Those were scientific theories at one point too. Now they're proven. We aren't suddenly going to realize that the church was right about that all along. Those two just happened to be easier to observe compared to evolution.

The issue at hand is not whether creationism/ID should be taught at all; just whether it should be taught as science in public schools. It is not science in any way, shape, or form. It fails the scientific method in that it cannot be observed nor disproven and therefore does not belong in a science class.

If this where the Chinese or medieval church mentality you speak of, creationism/ID wouldn't be allowed anywhere let alone public schools.


RE: So very sad...
By Ryanman on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By Lakku on 7/12/2008 4:46:50 PM , Rating: 5
ID is still creationism, only tailored to fit the abundance of evidence pointing to evolution actually occuring, though still a theory. I'll give a bit of credit to ID people, as at least they see the evidence of evolution and try to accomidate that. But in the end, don't kid yourself, it's still just people who believe in creation, but have learned they can't ignore the evidence or facts in the fossil records. It's like trying to have your cake (God and creation) and eating it too (the fact evolution has evidence, god and creation do not).


RE: So very sad...
By just4U on 7/13/2008 1:29:50 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know .. I don't follow what ever their cooking up but I am somewhat religous. I lean towards evolution but with a inteligence behind it. Just the people 6-7000 years ago couldn't comprehend that sort of things so they broke it down into something more simple and perhaps magical.

I look at the big blue ball on my desktop and at all the things around me and think how can this all just be some random. Just doesn't make sense to me. Plus I just can't accept the fact that when I die that's it. My experiences in life suggest otherwise, weather imagined or not. I think were all energy and perhaps some form of inteligent energy.. so while there may not be a heaven and hell and our religious books don't have it right I still think there's alot more to this then meets the eye...

I don't think that's a unreasonable school of thought. Should it be taught in schools? I don't really know. Everyone comes to their beliefs in their own way and it's different for everyone so..


RE: So very sad...
By UppityMatt on 7/14/2008 11:28:47 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I just can't accept the fact that when I die that's it.


And that's the reason that Religion was created. To help control the population and create an answer for a question we can't comprehend.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:51:08 PM , Rating: 2
You missed that Evolution is guided by natural selection, the random thing is much less important than that.


RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 4:56:33 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, Intelligent Design IS Creationism. Make no mistake about it. They are two different interpretations of the same story; Genesis. You will find no such ID text book that gives credence to evolution. As mentioned in the article, some ID text books have been shown that they are creation textbooks with the word creation replaced by intelligent design.

Not to mention, there is not one single shred of evidence that supports creation/intelligent design. The scientific method cannot be applied to the study of creation/ID. Therefore, creation/ID does not belong in a science class.

Just because children are taught evolution in public schools, doesn't mean they're taught that evolution is the be-all and end-all answer to the origin of life. It just happens to be the most comprehensive theory science has that is supported by boatloads of evidence and can be used to predict repeatable results in experimentation.

Creation/ID should left in Sunday school where it belongs.


RE: So very sad...
By Suomynona on 7/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By BruceLeet on 7/12/2008 5:42:49 PM , Rating: 2
Intelligent Evolution perhaps?


RE: So very sad...
By justjc on 7/13/2008 11:18:05 AM , Rating: 1
Sorry but I have to correct retrospootys statement that evolution a theory of random happenings, as evolution theory is the complete opposite. Evolution theory is a series of proven laws that explains the way species evolve.

The best known of these laws is survival of the fittest. This law applies both in the case of a single species, where the one that does the best has the best chance to pass on it's genes, and in the enviroment they inhabit where the species best suited to surrive lives on and others die out.

One of the best arguments of creationists and supporters of intelligent design is that evolution theory is just a theory. What they seem to forget is that it's a proven theory.
Other theorys that christian fundamentalists might like to attack is the theory of gravity, it must surely be God holding you back so you don't fall of the earth, the theory of the solarsystem, surely the sun circles the earth as the bible says and not the other way around. I'm sure you can find more well established theories that have been proven fact but doesn't fit your religius view.

You may teach your intelligent design in sunday school, but keep it out of public schools as it's a non proven theory(unlike evolution)


RE: So very sad...
By 16nm on 7/13/2008 7:53:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think you are misunderstanding the issue at hand. This would force all PUBLIC school children to learn ID regardless of the family's beliefs. Not all families that send their kids to public school are Christian.


You could just as easily flip your argument around.

"I think you are misunderstanding the issue at hand. This would force all PUBLIC school children to learn the theory of evolution regardless of the family's beliefs."

This is where the christians are coming from.


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 10:23:05 PM , Rating: 1
Would you prefer we also teach them that the earth is the center of the universe, and that the Flintstones is a historical document? Of course you would...
It's science class...duh. Why do you have such a problem with it? Clearly you don't even understand evolution--are you simply too lazy to learn? So home-school your offspring, keep them as ignorant as you want, and don't be a hypocrite by vaccinating them.


RE: So very sad...
By sld on 7/14/2008 3:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
Great use of straw men there. =)


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/15/2008 2:48:03 PM , Rating: 1
Uhhh, how do you figure Sid? You sure you have a grip on what that phrase means? I am not going to sit here and write how you're wrong...like evolution, you might have to think about it with a little more energy than you dedicate to tying your shoes.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:34:35 PM , Rating: 5
No, I don't believe that parents should choose what their children learn. I think that children should learn science in the science classroom even if their parents don't want them to.


RE: So very sad...
By murphyslabrat on 7/12/2008 11:04:58 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
...the Supreme Court (with a few exceptions) lacks the courage, the will, the virtue, and the wisdom to perform this function [censorship]. In such a vacuum, they have allowed complete cultural anarchy where pornographers live like Colombian drug lords and brainwashed teenagers turn their schools into combat zones. I place the blame for our cultural rot primarily on the pantywaist courts.

But a healthy culture... can not tolerate this situation... So what needs to happen? "We the People" need to draw the line. We need to say "Here and no further" to the purveyors of culturally destructive filth...


Is this what you are proposing? That we block any matter unworthy of consideration? That, like China (which didn't have part in this quote, just to be clear), we prevent anything from being taught, save the accepted dogma? If you believe that evolution needs protecting, just say so.

BTW, the quote (which with I took some liberties) can be found here: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37eaf1e13daa.ht...


RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/12/2008 11:49:35 PM , Rating: 4
Are you worried that evolution is culturally destructive filth? Kind of like when it was proposed that the Earth is round and not the center of the universe was culturally destructive filth as well? What will you do if evolutionary theory is completed in your lifetime?

No one is preventing creationism/ID from being taught. It simply doesn't belong in public school science class. You and your family are free to go learn about it at church.

It's not evolution that needs protecting; it's objective thought in public schools that needs protecting.


RE: So very sad...
By GTVic on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By randomly on 7/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By zombiexl on 7/13/2008 1:19:00 PM , Rating: 2
Dont get me wrong, i'm not sure where i stand on this. Although in reading your post it occurred to me that.. In order for someone to think objectively they need more than one choice or theory presented to them.


RE: So very sad...
By rninneman on 7/13/2008 1:25:28 PM , Rating: 2
Right, but the alternative choice is not creation/ID; the alternative to a true scientist is that the theory may eventually be proven wrong. That's the scientific method.

Unfortunately, the abundance of supporting evidence most likely will prove evolution played a role in whatever happened.


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 2:50:06 PM , Rating: 2
That is another inane theory. When you are thinking objectively about how much money is in your pocket, you count it. You measure it in one way, the mathematical way of counting, correct? Or is there another "theory" you alternately employ beyond mathematics to "objectively" figure out how much is in your pocket? Where the heck did you pull this "you need two theories to think objectively" from?


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/12/2008 9:28:31 PM , Rating: 2
I want to know why it is that religious people want to violate the very laws that allow them to practice their religion in peace and freedom! I.e., no government sponsored religion, etc. Hmmm? One of you want to answer that one? And don't all chime in at once that you are all the one true religion and so have the right to violate it in the name of your particular god.


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/2008 3:16:55 PM , Rating: 1
Wha...? You don't "believe" in science, so I have a hard time believing you are an authority on global warming. and why the hell would anyone want to make up global warming? How the hell would that benefit anyone? Wow, though, you do make it clear that the education deficits are worse than I thought...


RE: So very sad...
By phxfreddy on 7/13/2008 1:51:15 PM , Rating: 2
If only the courts would realize that MMGW was a religion. I am so sick of it. It is being rammed down our throats.

Dogma in the form of "you are a denier"....translated "you are an unbeliever" sound familiar? Yes indeed I am a infidel.


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By Aloonatic on 7/11/2008 8:10:36 AM , Rating: 1
I love these stories, they are very amusing none the less and lets the American hating crowd get things off of their chest and feel better about themselves.

This type of story reminds me of a anecdote that I heard (I can't remember from where, was an American on a TV show, may have been Ruby Wax???) regarding the teaching of foreign languages (I think it was French) in a Texan school.

Apparently, a Texan gent stood up in the school meeting and boldly proclaimed:

"If only speaking English was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me and my children."

Not sure if it 's true, but it still makes me chuckle.


RE: So very sad...
By Lakku on 7/12/2008 4:51:30 PM , Rating: 3
That quote is actually from a Texas govenor making a somewhat silly point to people wanting to force teach Spanish in Texas/American schools. I forget their name off the top of my head, but yes, it's true, but not in the way you describe it. And it was part sarcasm before people go running around thinking they meant it literally.


RE: So very sad...
By Aloonatic on 7/11/2008 8:11:01 AM , Rating: 1
I love these stories, they are very amusing none the less and lets the American hating crowd get things off of their chest and feel better about themselves.

This type of story reminds me of a anecdote that I heard (I can't remember from where, was an American on a TV show, may have been Ruby Wax???) regarding the teaching of foreign languages (I think it was French) in a Texan school.

Apparently, a Texan gent stood up in the school meeting and boldly proclaimed:

"If only speaking English was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me and my children."

Not sure if it 's true, but it still makes me chuckle.


RE: So very sad...
By mdogs444 on 7/12/2008 3:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If evolution is not "taught" in Church, why should "creationism" be taught in PUBLIC SECULAR schools?

There is no law or act banning the teachings of evolution in church.


RE: So very sad...
By Flunk on 7/12/2008 4:51:57 PM , Rating: 2
Churches are not public institutions.


RE: So very sad...
By mdogs444 on 7/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: So very sad...
By Ryanman on 7/13/2008 3:11:54 AM , Rating: 3
the public didn't vote. A couple power hungry people that realized the vocal conservative war machine would crush them voted.


RE: So very sad...
By zsdersw on 7/13/2008 8:44:30 AM , Rating: 2
The public cannot vote for something that's unconstitutional like, say, to remove your right to life even though you've committed no crime. The majority doesn't have unlimited rights or unlimited power. Everything about how our government was initially conceived and structured is meant to mitigate the power of the majority.


RE: So very sad...
By Eri Hyva on 7/12/2008 5:35:48 PM , Rating: 2
There is no law to require churches (of any religion/belief system) to teach evolution.

And let's keep it that way.

Of course, the other way around, too.


RE: So very sad...
By walk2k on 7/12/2008 7:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
Hey I don't mind if they teach "ID" or creationism.

As long as it's done in a class called something like "World Relgious Studies", and they they take a look at ALL religions of the world, without endorsing one over another.

Sure, no problem...

But in SCIENCE class ahhhh I think they should probably stick to actual science.


RE: So very sad...
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 7/12/2008 8:10:42 PM , Rating: 5
exactly..

Some interesting points by masher2 & others. For doubters of evolution, here's some quick 5 min videos of proof of evolution by a biochemistry PhD (my major was also biochem/molecular cell bio at UCBerkeley) -I'll like to call it proof/evidence:

- http://www.youtube.com/v/T9ZUFsLLHSs&hl -How God & Evolution are compatible by scientist Ken Miller

http://www.youtube.com/v/O4GdZOlPrX8&hl -Transitional Fossils

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0wwhSlo1NI -gradual changes/walking-airbreathing fish

-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0 -4 Proofs of Evolution

-http://www.youtube.com/v/9V_2r2n4b5c&hl -Quick 5 Minute Video on Evolution Evidence/Creationism Disproved

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-... Scientific American: 15 Answers to Creationist Propaganda -www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creatio nist</a>

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4311046&... -ABCNews: Florida Finally Allows word 'Evolution' to Be Included in Teaching Standards For The First Time

http://media.pbs.org/asxgen/general/windows/wgbh/n... -NOVA documentary –Dover trial –Fossil evidence ch. 5 & how the courtroom & reporters were amazed & surprised at all the fossil evidence/'missing links' found between fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to dinosaurs, dinosaurs to birds, & reptiles to mammals BECAUSE CREATIONISTS HAD FOUGHT to KEEP THE EVIDENCE OUT OF HI SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS

http://media.pbs.org/asxgen/general/windows/wgbh/n... NOVA documentary –Dover trial –Fossil evidence ch. 5

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/qt/3416_0... -NOVA documentary -Dover tiral –DNA evidence ch. 6

==
<a href=
http://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5M target=new4>WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5M& lt;/a> --Ken Miller on How Entire Human Chromosome #2 is the Result of the Fusion of Ape Chromosome #13 onto Ape Chromosome #2 --4 minutes of eye-opening evidence

==
<a href=http://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0&feature... target=_new3 >-- DNA proof of evolution -9 minutes of eye-opening evidence …fast-forward to 7 min mark if already seen the 1st video </a> -shows human DNA contains ERV(endogenous retroviral DNA) at exact same spots (out of 3 billion spots) as ape DNA -retroviral DNA infected ape DNA at the exact same spots as human DNA (meaning humans inherited the infected DNA from apes) -click Part 2 also:

http://WWW.youtube.com/watch?v=D0wwhSlo1NI --evolution + transitional form of fish to amphibian (mudskipper):

You should see Ken Miller's lecture on this(1st link).. Great info & provides some good bits that are impossible to explain in any sensible manner.
.........
1st video is from Brown University bio proffesor Ken Miller who explains DNA EVIDENCE how apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes (number #1 to number #24) while humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes (numbered #1 to number #23) .. recently, both the entire human & ape DNA/genome was mapped .. evolutionary theory can be verified/tested in that if humans evolved from apes, humans are missing the 1 ape chromosome pair cause the 1 chromosome pair fused/attached to end of another chromosome (ape chromosome #13 attached/fused to what we call now call ape/human chromosome #2). (Chromosomes come in pairs --one of each pair is just a copy/a mirror image of the other: total number of chromosomes is 46(23 pairs)

Chromosome #2 of humans is shown next to two chimpanzee (and gorilla and orangutan) chromosomes since the human chromosome #2 is twice as long as the chimpanzee (and the other apes as well), yet all the bands match up showing that the one less human chromosome is merely the result of two chimp chromosomes getting connected together!"
….
Further DNA testing showed that human chromosome #2 MATCHES ape chromosome #2 & #13 when both ape chromosomes are lined up end to end! Human chrom#2 is complete match with telomere & centremore at exact location/fusion points, proving that human chromosome #2 is a fusion of ape chromosom #2 & #13
........
Chromosomes have a beginning & an end marked by telomeres. After mapping the entire DNA of both apes & humans, lo & behold, humans have the entire missing ape chromosome fused into chromosome #2 (we know they're fused because there is a telomere in the MIDDLE of the chromosome in addition to the normal telomere at the end/beginning of chromosome #2 --such an anomaly can only be explained by the fusion of the missing chromosome with chromosome #2 --not only that, but the fused portion of the chromosome matches the "missing" chromosome of the apes!).

......... Contray to creationists propaganda, individuals w/differeing numbers of chromosomes can still mate w/the rest of the population (wild horses w/ 66 chromosomes can still mate with domestic horses w/64 chromosomes, humans born with extra or missing chromosomes can still mate w/ normal humans & all produced fertile offspring)

==

here's more info that exposes the ignorance of the creationists(that IDEA site was written by a lawyer w/ no understanding of biology (the following link explains how chromosomes fusing/splitting results in new species --note, the fusing of chromosomes DOES NOT mean the loss of genomic(genetic) information -think of chromosomes as piles of paper or filing cabinets for holding DNA..fusing just means u have 1 big pile instead of 2 smaller piles, that is, 2 filing cabinets fusing into 1 bigger filing cabinet ):

<a href=http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/basics_... target=new>http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/basics_...

More refutation of IDEA’s ignorant essay by creationist lawyers:
<a href=http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/09/luskins... target=New2>http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/09/luskins...

........
More evolution proof videos:
<a href=http://WWW.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2 target=new6>WWW.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2</ a> .....
==
<a href=http://WWW.youtube.com/user/rippedbuff target=_new3>WWW.youtube.com/user/rippedbuff< /a>


RE: So very sad...
By CSP on 7/12/2008 10:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
And why is it that the purist and most constant displays of "evil," (in this case, fostering and perpetuating ignorance for the sake of religious power), come from those who tout their religiosity?


RE: So very sad...
By DeanO on 7/12/2008 11:43:30 PM , Rating: 1
This is indeed a backward step. Disappointing.