DailyTech - India Is a High Tech R&D Hotbed

Submit News

Science India Is a High Tech R&D Hotbed
Shane McGlaun (Blog) - July 21, 2009 8:30 PM

26 comment(s) - last by Wierdo.. on Jul 23 at 8:19 AM

Country still has major obstacles to R&D

IT outsourcing has become common for many different companies as they take jobs that in the past were kept in America and send them overseas to developing nations where workers will do the same tasks for a fraction of the cost America workers demand. This is a good thing for the foreign workers, but it's hard to find a silver lining for Americans losing their jobs to overseas workers.

There are several countries where many American firms are conducting R&D operations as well as manufacturing including China and India. India in particular is becoming a hot spot for high-tech R&D reports Reuters. Microsoft is one of the largest technology firms based in the U.S. to outsource a major portion of its R&D to India.

Microsoft runs a research center in India is staffed with 60 full-time researchers, many of them Indians with PhDs form top universities in America. Reuters reports that the office is at the center of Microsoft's R&D operations. The center works in seven areas of R&D for Microsoft including mobility and cryptography.

One of the key innovations for Microsoft's new Bing search engine was developed at the India location. The tool enables searches for locations with incomplete or incorrect addresses. One of the research centers directors B. Ashok told Reuters that the innovations wouldn’t have taken root if the R&D had been done in America.

Ashok said, "It was completely inspired by the Indian environment, but is applicable worldwide."

Reuters reports that while India is a top spot for some firms R&D operations the country is hampered by some serious problems with its infrastructure that create serious issues. Those issues include the lack of government support and not enough home grown researchers.

With a country of as huge a population as India has, it only produces about 300,000 computer science graduates per year and only about 100 PhDs in computer science per year. By comparison, the U.S. produces about 1,500 to 2,000 computer science PhDs each year.

Microsoft's head of strategy at the Microsoft India Research Center Vidya Natampally said, "Students here are not exposed to research from an early age, faculties are not exposed to research and there's no career path for innovation because there's a lot of pressure to get a 'real' job."

The Indian government also offers little in the way of incentives to encourage innovation. Natampally said, "China has a policy in place for R&D; we don't."

China has pulled ahead of India with respect to R&D centers with 1,100 of them compared to the 800 R&D centers in India. China offers funding to help encourage students to complete PhDs and financial incentives like tax breaks to lure R&D centers into the country. The lack of R&D innovation in India is apparent in the number of patents granted in the country. In 2006 to 2007, India only claimed 7,000 patents compared to the 160,000 patents granted in America.

Praveen Bhadada from consultant firm Zinnov said, "We're nowhere near the U.S. or even Israel when it comes to innovations. Our costs are low and our talent pool is ahead of China, Russia, and Ukraine, but China gives specific incentives, and produces way more PhDs than we do."

In June Vineet Nayar, CEO of HCL Technologies, a major Microsoft partner, complained at a conference in New York City that American technology graduates were unemployable. Nayar stated that he felt tech graduates in India, China, and Brazil were superior and that Americans were only out to dream up the "next big thing." The bias against innovation runs deep in many Indian companies.

Comments

Threshold

Username
Password
remember me

This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

PhD != innovative ideas

By hmurchison on 7/21/2009 9:02:50 PM , Rating: 3

The outsourcing of R&D has nothing to do with innovation. It's about saving $$$$. School doesn't pound in innovation ..that skill comes from creative thought which is pounded out of University students who excel primarily through wrote memory.

The fantastic innovation I see comes invariably from small companies that usually end up being acquired by some soulless Fortune 500 company.

You can outsource R&D to Timbuktu if you want but your product won't be any better in design than if it was created in Paducah Kentucky in some garage.

$.02

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By hyvonen on 7/21/2009 10:27:26 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
The outsourcing of R&D has nothing to do with innovation. It's about saving $$$$.

True.

quote:
School doesn't pound in innovation ..that skill comes from creative thought which is pounded out of University students who excel primarily through wrote memory.

Not true - what makes you say that? Did you get your Ph.D. from a school that focuses on memorization?

quote:
You can outsource R&D to Timbuktu if you want but your product won't be any better in design than if it was created in Paducah Kentucky in some garage.

It could be better. And even if it's merely equal, it was a lot cheaper to have than buying some tiny garage company that was doing it just to make a quick buck by getting bought.

Are you one of those people who keep telling themselves that "India and China suck, they can't innovate; I'm still worth my top-dollar salary", just so you wouldn't have nightmares about losing your job because you're overpaid compared to equally skilled engineers in other countries?

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By hmurchison on 7/22/2009 1:56:42 AM , Rating: 3

Thanks for the reply.

Ph.D programs certainly require more critical thinking and I realize this but allow me to paint with a broad brush here. A typical graduate degree and many Masters Degree require very little beyond banking a little knowledge and regurgitating come test time.

India and China do not suck but both countries have a billion people which means very low cost labor. Note the article references Indians who have been educated in American University. That's a bit of a paradox here. India is supposedly a hot bed of R&D using those hot studs from American University.

I just grow weary of the bluster coming from the Tech companies and press about outsourcing. It's cheap folks ...and almost invariably you get what you pay for.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By hyvonen on 7/22/2009 3:10:29 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
Ph.D programs certainly require more critical thinking and I realize this but allow me to paint with a broad brush here. A typical graduate degree and many Masters Degree require very little beyond banking a little knowledge and regurgitating come test time.

That may be (although depends a lot on the program), but I was mainly referring to your subject 'PhD != innovative ideas'

quote:
Note the article references Indians who have been educated in American University. That's a bit of a paradox here. India is supposedly a hot bed of R&D using those hot studs from American University.

No paradox here. First, the article does mention the specific example of Microsoft's research center in India with "many" american-trained employees. However, this singular example doesn't mean that there aren't innovative companies in India that employ engineers trained in Indian universities (e.g., IITs).

Second, there must be a reason why all these Ph.D. graduates from top U.S. universities would go to India... whatever it is, them being in India does make it an R&D hotbed.

quote:
I just grow weary of the bluster coming from the Tech companies and press about outsourcing. It's cheap folks ...and almost invariably you get what you pay for.

It may be cheap, but "you get what you pay for" doesn't necessarily apply. Salaries in India are lower than those in the USA, but the cost of living there is also lower. Previously, these two economies have been largely isolated from each other by distance, and managed to sustain the incredible salary differential, but the Internet is now enabling the "cheap labor" to offer services to the more expensive economy. This competition puts more pressure to the (previously) high salaries of the US economy.

Naturally, equal-quality services can be bought cheaper from India since the salaries only have to support the cheaper standard-of-living. I'm sure a guy making 100k a year in India could afford a much better lifestyle than someone making 100k in the USA, and would probably be a superstar if able to command such a high salary in India.

This is pure free market: India is competing with low-cost high-quality labor, supported by the lower general cost structure in India. Eventually (if free market is allowed to function), the salaries in the India will go up raising their quality of living, and salaries in the USA have to come down, lowering our quality of living.

The only way to sustain the higher US salaries is through artificial means such as H-1B visa limits, mandates reducing outsourcing, government-subsidized work programs... But make no mistake, this is not free market - it's protectionism, and will ultimately fail against competition in the global marketplace.

Oh, and be careful when saying something about greedy corporations screwing the american workforce by outsourcing (i.e., going for the "best value" and maximizing profits)... it almost sounds like socialism.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By hmurchison on 7/22/2009 3:26:59 AM , Rating: 5

Excellent reply hyvonen.

You're right ..I realize that in a way any efforts to curb the Global Free Market will likely result in abject failure. China and India have so many more poor but with 2 billion across the two countries even %15 represents a substantial number.

I'm not really a proponent of protectiong US salaries as much as I'm in favor of "fairly" limiting growth of mega corporations.

The US can be a hot bed of innovation but we have to enable the smaller companies to thrive without having to sell out.

Though history often repeats itself. The young US was once the plucky upstart that enthusiastically made product though now quite up to the standards of of Great Britain and Europe on the whole.

I guess turnabout is fair play and my pride is hurt more than anything.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By bhieb on 7/22/2009 1:20:03 PM , Rating: 2

Great discussion on both ends. My only qualm is...

quote:
enable the smaller companies to thrive without having to sell out

No company "has" to sell out, they choose to in order to get rich quick. I would argue that this in a nutshell is one of many problems in the US now. The primary reason for innovation these days is to get a patent and sell it off for quick cash.

Why don't we see many of the small garage shops taking off anymore? IMHO It is not because some evil big corp came along and strong armed them out, rather it was their greed to make a quick buck that sold them out. Instead of skimming along, working hard, and making sacrifices they choose the easy way out, and sell out to investors with deep pockets. They may not want to work 80 hrs a week for 10 years to grow a company, when they can sell it now for big $$$$. Is that a bad thing, imo no, is it the evil corps fault, no. Should we somehow regulate it? Hell no!

It is human nature, everyone everywhere wants the most for the least cost. Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. It is a nice saying, but not human nature. If you find some starving tribe and offer them a basket of food now, or the equipment to make their own next season, I'd be willing to bet most would take the immediate gratification because who knows if they will still be alive next crop season.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By RandomUsername3463 on 7/22/2009 10:59:46 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
A typical graduate degree and many Masters Degree require very little beyond banking a little knowledge and regurgitating come test time.

Perhaps if your school allows you a courses-only Master's degree this is true. I think many PhDs would disagree that they got their degree by memorization and test taking. All American PhDs I know had to do a significant amount of research for their dissertations. I would expect a good Masters degree to also involve research and writing a thesis.

Medical school, rather than engineering / science graduate school, requires students to follow the memorization & test-taking route for success.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By Shadowmage on 7/22/2009 2:00:50 PM , Rating: 2

As a PhD student in computer architecture and simulation, let me say that you have absolutely no idea as to what you're talking about.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By nineball9 on 7/21/2009 11:53:25 PM , Rating: 1

"wrote memory"?

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By ksherman on 7/22/2009 12:55:26 AM , Rating: 1

It is his PhD speaking.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By hyvonen on 7/22/2009 3:14:10 AM , Rating: 3

You guys are nitpicking little tramps. I'm sure you know exactly what his point was - cheap shots like this are not in the spirit of a good discussion.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By Spivonious on 7/22/2009 9:55:01 AM , Rating: 2

Yeah, but cheap shots are still fun. :)

C'est la vie!

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By chagrinnin on 7/22/2009 1:28:45 AM , Rating: 2

He learned about rote memory by rote.

Parent

RE: PhD != innovative ideas

By hmurchison on 7/22/2009 1:47:18 AM , Rating: 1

Thanks Teach!! I'll be sure to leave that "w" off next time to appease you. Gollly gee I'm so glad you're here to be my free editor.

Parent

Free at last!!

By nayy on 7/21/2009 10:15:33 PM , Rating: 3

quote:
Ashok told Reuters that the innovations wouldn’t have taken root if the R&D had been done in America

I'm glad he finally escaped the tyranny of his pointy haired boss.

By the way Shane it think you misspelled his name, a picture would be fitting too ;)

RE: Free at last!!

By petrosy on 7/21/2009 11:07:55 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
Ashok told Reuters that the innovations wouldn’t have taken root if the R&D had been done in America

What else would he say? Good work can come out of any market. The fact that he is from India means that he will try sell the idea that India is the best. Given that job to anyone in any country the result would of been the same. The only reason its in India is not because India can innovate better than the USA. Its just that they are cheaper and that is the real story!

Having experience in the SAP field I can vouch for modules out of SAP Labs India are by far inferior to the modules developed by SAP AG Germany. It might be more costly to develop in Germany but they do know how to write robust applications.

Parent

RE: Free at last!!

By 67STANG on 7/22/2009 12:03:01 AM , Rating: 2

No joke there. Pretty much all of the .Net code I've had to clean up in the past has come from India-- and it's a nightmare to clean up. Their coding style reminds me of the spaghetti-coding from the ASP 3.0 days. Horrible.

Parent

RE: Free at last!!

By hmurchison on 7/22/2009 2:02:34 AM , Rating: 3

I've talked to both Microsoft and Sun Microsystems engineers. I asked them, candidly, what they thought about their H1B Visa workers from India and other countries. One said "just another guy" and the other was like "they're ok"

The biggest expense for most companies is payroll. Outsourcing has never been about grabbing talent for innovation. That's what acquisitions are for. These outsource centers are about doing things cheaply because they aren't worth buying.

Parent

RE: Free at last!!

By theapparition on 7/22/2009 7:58:28 AM , Rating: 3

Did anyone else find it ironic that in virtually the same breath that there's no way that innovation could have come out of America, was the assertion that most of the PhD's were American trained.

Go figure.

Parent

Cheap is good for manufacturing not for R&D

By crystal clear on 7/22/2009 4:23:45 AM , Rating: 5

quote:
Praveen Bhadada from consultant firm Zinnov said, "We're nowhere near the U.S. or even Israel when it comes to innovations. Our costs are low and our talent pool is ahead of China, Russia, and Ukraine, but China gives specific incentives, and produces way more PhDs than we do."

More or less Phds dont guarrantee innovation or quality R&D.

Its not the quantity but the quality of the R&D personnel that achieve good results.

Emphasis on quality R&D personnel rather than cheaper & more mediocre level R&D personnel gets you those innovations.

India traditionally was a major supplier of manpower skilled & unskilled best suited for manufacturing & service sectors.

Rating their skills for the "R" &"D" would be - poor on the "R" & mediocre on the "D".... put R&D together gives you a team that cannot be expected to produce the desired results.

Management in Indian companies is the type that wants its employees to just shut up & do their work as they are told to do so.
No motivation for creativity/innovations/productivity etc neither any incentives.

Cutting R&D cost means cutting your future revenues/profits & even risking your survival in a high paced & rapidly changing/expanding tech sector/market.

Intel brings in the best available R&D manpower from all over the world to stay ahead of its competitors & delivers on time.

People of all nationalities/origins etc assembled together as teams with a given target to achieve within a certain specified time frame.
They drive them hard to perform & achieve at the same time paying them good salaries.

Israel traditionally/historically was a R&D focused country/people instead of manufacturing.

Their R&D skills are exceptionally high & perform at their best in such an envoirement.

Note its the quality & not the quantity that matters.

Every major/reputed company has its R&D centres in Israel from Intel to H.P. to Microsoft etc that uses the high potentials of manpower or even better brainpower to perform & deliver in the R&D sector.

The R&D cost & salaries are very high but they deliver in time,making the high cost worth every penny of it.....ask Intel about the pentium M for example,there are many more such examples.

Venture captial is available in plenty in Israel & there is no shortage of them to finance startups, neither is there a shortage of startups to use this finance.

So its the R&D envoirement that motivates people to achieve more/better/faster.

Cutting R&D cost maybe good for companies in the short term but fatally bad in the longterm.

wait a sec

By alpensiedler on 7/22/2009 12:03:13 PM , Rating: 3

quote:
With a country of as huge a population as India has, it only produces about 300,000 computer science graduates per year and only about 100 PhDs in computer science per year. By comparison, the U.S. produces about 1,500 to 2,000 computer science PhDs each year.

Of course we produce more PhDs per year, everyone is coming here to get their PhD. What isn't said is how many of those PhDs are americans. I'm an american comp sci PhD student, and I can say that without a doubt, american students are an extreme minority, where as chinese and indians are the majority.

It'd be easier not to outsource if we could get more american students accepted to PhD programs, however currently there is a severe preference towards "diversity." Oh and if indians and chinese would stop working for peanuts, that'd probably help too...

RE: wait a sec

By radializer on 7/22/2009 4:41:56 PM , Rating: 2

I agree with your statement that the country-of-origin split for PhD degrees awarded by US universities - especially for Comp Science - is heavily skewed towards Indians and Chinese.

quote:
if we could get more american students accepted to PhD programs, however currently there is a severe preference towards "diversity".

However, I don't agree with your reasoning (above) that this is being driven primarily by a "preference for US universities to have diversity" - this is pure drivel. Diversity drives decisions when the "minorities" are a relatively small fraction of the population, not when the "minorities" are > 60% of the population (and this is possibly a conservative estimate).

The primary issue is that positions exist in EE/CS PhD programs but there aren't enough takers who are Americans! In fact, all state universities and most private universities have fantastic funding programs for US citizens and Permanent Residents - so the facilities exist, the initiative is needed. We need to boost the interest of today's youth in the hard sciences and engineering fields - an attitude that today's media/society shuns.

Parent

1500-2000 phds

By Wierdo on 7/23/2009 8:19:32 AM , Rating: 2

How many of those US PHDs are Indians as well? Walking down our Engineering college, it seems the masters/phd level classrooms are mostly Chinese and Indians these days.

Seems not many people are interested in the field these days, maybe that's due to outsourcing concerns, I dunno.

Captain Obvious to the Rescue

By Funksultan on 7/22/2009 7:51:16 AM , Rating: 1

K, I'm lost. Shane, how is this news? This coulda been a breaking story 9 or 10 years ago, but anyone with a pulse already knew this. Are we just looking for some discussion?

Line it up with other earth-shattering headlines:

"Michael Jackson is dead, and was weird"
"Transformers 2 makes shitload of money"
"Internet used to download pr0n"
"American automotive industry in trouble"

Made me laugh

By IcePickFreak on 7/22/2009 10:39:10 AM , Rating: 1

Well first of off, the reason they were all from American Universities and work and India is because they're Indian. Have you been to the doctor/hospital in the last 10 years? They get much better deals on schooling in the US than actual Americans do. In this case they just finish up school and go back home.

Secondly, this is a bit funny. See, the head of our engineering department is from India, been working here a little over 30 years. We've come to understand that his idea of R&D means "Ripoff & Duplicate". Much to my surprise, there is little actual engineering needed in.. engineering. The fact that he's the head of engineering for a long time, and once asked what 3/8 was in decimal form - excuse me if I'm a bit apprehensive about this.