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Independent community is more vocal on topic than major labels

Under President Barack Obama's mandate, the Federal Communications Commissions is drafting provisions that would offer a legal implementation of net neutrality. The subject is a surprisingly contentious one, as some large businesses wish that they could pay to get a higher priority in terms of internet traffic.

In the music industry, the issue is a particularly thorny one as the industry is divided between big labels and independent labels. Over 90 percent of music released by labels in the U.S. is released on independent labels, yet major labels hog much of money and glory with formulaic hit generators like Jay Z, Britney Spears, and Taylor Swift.

The American Association of Independent Music (A2IM) chimed in on the net neutrality debate in an open letter from its President, Rich Bengloff. In the letter, Bengloff speaks for the independent labels in strongly voicing support for a neutral internet. He says that a neutral internet assures for "fair access" , which could otherwise be abused and squashed by major labels in terms of their online footprint.

Bengloff, however, was quick to draw the line at "legal" content.  He comments, "As listeners continue to move away from the classic sales model to a 'time spent listening' performance model, we hope Chairman Genachowski will also demonstrate a respect for Intellectual Property and by extension the need for artists and labels to be fairly compensated for the works they create when those works are used or recreated."

In that respect, the indie labels share a significant aspect of the major labels' stance.  While they are more vocal advocates on the topic of net neutrality, like the majors they don't believe that such protections should be extended to all forms of traffic, such as those commonly used for legal and illegal music filesharing like bittorrent and P2P.

At the end of the day the indie labels appear firm in supporting net neutrality -- but only if it has exceptions aimed at piracy.



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So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By iFX on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By shin0bi272 on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/9/2010 10:43:08 AM , Rating: 1
The basic principle of Network neutrality is to treat all sites, all content on-line equally, with only limited discrimination.

"This approach allows higher fees for QoS as long as there is no exclusivity in service contracts. "If I pay to connect to the Net with a given quality of service, and you pay to connect to the net with the same or higher quality of service, then you and I can communicate across the net, with that quality of service.""[We] each pay to connect to the Net, but no one can pay for exclusive access to me."

Do you really guys fancy the idea some day to receive something like this from your ISP?

http://trueslant.com/jeffhoard/files/2009/10/NetNu...


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 11:15:28 AM , Rating: 5
"Net neutrality simply states that all data must go through a 3rd party server and cannot go through an exclusive network"

No. Net neutrality requires carriers to treat all content equally, and not prioritize based on content or other parameters.

The concept sounds good on paper. In practice, its a severe blow to the consumer. It will seriously impede efforts to roll out new ultra-low latency services. Such services are vastly expensive to deploy, and will only be done so if carriers can recover that costs by offering this as a higher tier of service for those who require it. Services like real-time ultra-HD videoconferencing, remote telemetry or industrial control.

Without the neutrality ban, such services will be paid for initially by those who need them...and as the rollout costs are amortized, they'll trickle down to those who don't. The deep-pocket customers finance the expansion for the rest of us....just as they've been doing since the Internet began. With neutrality, however, such services can only be offered once they're cheap enough to make them available to the lowest common denominator.

Come now. Does anyone hear REALLY care if their email or torrent packets arrive in the same old 100ms as always, rather than in 10? Prioritization of traffic is only logical. Does it really make sense to be forced to deliver baby pics to Grandma Goldenstein's just as fast as the data being used to remote-control a heart-surgery operation in progress at Johns Hopkins?

Let's examine these Orwellian conspiracy theories a bit closer. Assuming a carrier, or even a group of carriers colluded to suppress certain types of content. What would happen? Those providing such content would merely move to a new carrier which didn't suppress them...and the customers who wanted that content would as well.

The fact is that, sans net neutrality, our existing services are not going to be downgraded. New services will simply be offered, at a higher price point. Those paying for those services will finance new Internet features and capacity expansion for the rest of all. A win-win.

In a free market, only the government has the power to censor. Fear the government most of all, when they come claiming to 'help you' with new regulations preventing what you can and cannot do on the Internet.

The fact is we've done without Net Neutrality since the inception of the Internet, and done just fine. The only problem that needs to be solved isn't prioritization of data, but rather the "last mile" access issue, that grants near-monopoly status to cable and phone/dsl companies, and limit competition to your house.

You want the government to help you? Ask them to solve THAT problem.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By theslug on 3/9/2010 11:20:23 AM , Rating: 2
These are good points, but without net neutrality, how do you stop a large ISP from blocking you to news sites, or significantly slowing access to them down, and redirecting you to their own site? This is what net neutrality is supposed to prevent, by making all access equal.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 11:31:49 AM , Rating: 3
" without net neutrality, how do you stop a large ISP from blocking you to news sites?"

By moving to a new ISP, of course. Voting with your wallet. The same reason you don't need a law telling Wal-Mart not to charge $50 for a tube of toothpaste.

To reiterate...we've had the Internet for 20 years without Net Neutrality, without ISPs doing the above. In the rare case a provider even thinks about limiting access, the resultant customer outcry and potential revenue loss immediately causes them to rethink their decision.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By HotFoot on 3/9/2010 11:47:28 AM , Rating: 3
Moving to a new ISP is a very limited choice in many places, and communications companies often move in lock-step.

For example, a few years ago in my area every major phone service provider simultaneously changed the definition of when evening starts from 18:00 to 20:00. I couldn't change providers to get away from that move.

The ISP market is very similar (often the same companies). There is not effective competition, and I don't think there will be.


By porkpie on 3/9/2010 11:50:45 AM , Rating: 1
"Moving to a new ISP is a very limited choice in many places"

Read my post. The 'last mile' access problem is indeed a real problem. It's also one caused by government regulation.

Repeal the laws granting near-monopoly status to cable and phone/dsl companies, and you'll see competition flourish.


By TSS on 3/9/2010 7:19:15 PM , Rating: 2
As i understand it, the government was the source of that problem, more government rules won't help this.

porkpie makes a good point, bandwidth prioritization is needed. But that deals with latency. If i remember correctly (though this is long ago by now), this whole net neutrality mess got started after it was found that comcast started cutting off and sometimes completely blocking P2P traffic, legal or not (i remember this because i was playing trackmania, a game that uses p2p tech and there was a big deal about this).

Prioritization is needed, but speed limiting of certain data is not. That's already beeing paid for by the people with the highest bandwidth subscriptions. If i pay for a 1 MB/s connection, i damn well should get 1MB/s whatever the traffic consists off.

To put it in a torrent perspective: I don't care if my torrent packets arrive in 10ms or 10000ms. Aslong as they do it at 1MB/s worth of chunks. I do care if my ping in games is low, which is paid for by people hosting dedicated servers and the subscription i pay (together with selecting a server not across the world).

This legislation gets the bandwidth right, but the prioritization wrong. Which will end up causing more harm then good. What SHOULD happen, is the government needs to end the government-sanctioned monopolies carriers have and let competition take care of things. Yknow, so you can actually switch if one carrier does something you don't like.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By fleshconsumed on 3/9/2010 11:48:10 AM , Rating: 2
That would have been great if it was possible but it's not. In most areas you're lucky if you have two ISP choices. That's not much of a choice.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By onelittleindian on 3/9/2010 11:55:27 AM , Rating: 3
Most people can get cable, DSL from either their phone company of a dozen indepdent providers. And satellite. In a few years WiMax will be available pretty much everywhere also.

I dont like this "hurry up and pass a law to solve a problem that doesn't exist yet" approach. This inspire-fear approach is how government has always motivated us to allow them new control.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By fleshconsumed on 3/9/2010 3:16:47 PM , Rating: 2
We've got AT&T/Comcast/WOW here. 3 providers and we're extremely lucky. Well, to be honest only 2 because AT&T line quality was so poor that we only got 1Mbps speeds and internet connection dropped every hour. Since AT&T is so bad we essentially only 2 choices - Comcast and WOW.

Where do you live that you have a dozen independent providers? Please list them. I'm genuinely interested in hearing about a place where you have a choice between a dozen independent ISPs.


By Kurz on 3/9/2010 5:26:45 PM , Rating: 2
It probably would happen if the government didn't monopolize the industry.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 12:03:50 PM , Rating: 1
I do admire your ability to be so entirely wrong on every fact and issue. Do we have a Net Neutrality law in place now? No. Are providers legally barred from prioritizing traffic? No.

Are they legally barred from blocking your access to certain sites? No. But do they do it? No again.

Put the tinfoil hat theories aside. Service providers want to offer new services at higher rates, not degrade your existing services. You gain customers and market share by offering better service, not worse.

Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. Nothing so well defines the driving impetus behind the naivety of the net neutrality movement so well as that phrase.



RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 1:40:31 PM , Rating: 2
Please learn a little about the proposed legislation before attempting to discuss it:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3458/show

It prevents ISPs from prioritizing traffic . That's the root of the problem. They cannot create a "fast lane", and they cannot offer higher levels of QOS (quality of service). As I said earlier, it forces them treat your baby pics to grandma as urgent as data on a heart surgery transplant.

Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem. Why is it so critical to pass this legislation, when not a single ISP in the nation is doing the terrible things you claim they will engage in, without government restraint?


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By JHBoricua on 3/9/2010 2:38:55 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It prevents ISPs from priotirizing traffic .
That's simply not true. Talk about F.U.D.

What the bill does is to prevent ISPs from priotirizing traffic from one provider OVER another. In other words, it prevents an ISP from degrading email traffic from say Google, over their own email traffic. Or it prevents ISPs to priotirize VoIP traffic from their own VoIP offering, over VoIP traffic from another provider.

So, It DOES NOT prevent them from doing priotirizing traffic, they just can't discriminate one provider over another.


By porkpie on 3/9/2010 3:54:24 PM , Rating: 2
Straight from the bill:
quote:
(2) not impose a charge on any Internet content, service, or application provider to enable any lawful Internet content, application, or service to be offered, provided, or used through the provider’s service, beyond the end user charges associated with providing the service to such provider;
That effectively prevents them from selling higher-tiered levels of service right there.

You're likely thinking of this section:

quote:
(5) not provide or sell to any content, application, or service provider, including any affiliate provider or joint venture, any offering that prioritizes traffic over that of other such providers
While this sounds good, it effectively prevents them from prioritizing ANY traffic whatsoever, unless all other providers also support and provide for that same level of prioritization. Meaning they're effectively barred from rolling out any QOS enhancements...unless they automatically, for free, give that enhanced QOS to every other provider in the world.


By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/9/2010 3:28:52 PM , Rating: 1
You misunderstood this clause. It states that ISPs must treat all content providers equally without prioritizing traffic and impeding or hindering their service. And that's absolutely appropriate demand, because ISPs are not f@cking gatekeepers, this bullshit business idea they conjured up in the past two years that they have the legitimate justification to demand money from content providers like Google or throttling random bloger is completely ridicules. Consumers pay ISPs for Internet access not content. If ISPs want to offer better service and consumers are inclined to pay for this service nothing in this law prohibits ISPs to upgrade their networks and provide better faster Internet plans. If I paid 90 bucks for 20Mb speed it is their legal obligation to provide me with this speed rate on all content without filtering.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 3:56:53 PM , Rating: 2
" It states that ISPs must treat all content providers equally without prioritizing traffic ."

Exactly. You can't offer an ultra-high bandwidth, low-latency connection between two customers....because those packets would flow at a higher priority than standard traffic.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By JHBoricua on 3/9/2010 4:32:50 PM , Rating: 1
How about not selectively quoting the other poster? The full statement was:
quote:
It states that ISPs must treat all content providers equally without prioritizing traffic and impeding or hindering their service.


How you interpret that as:
quote:
You can't offer an ultra-high bandwidth, low-latency connection between two customers....because those packets would flow at a higher priority than standard traffic.
is beyond me.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 4:50:09 PM , Rating: 2
"How you interpret that...is beyond me."

Read the bill. It's not that difficult to understand.

In the interim, before you accuse me of selective quoting, you might want to lookup the meaning of the conjunction "and".


By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/9/2010 4:58:23 PM , Rating: 2
What is it with you and your crippled logic today porkpie. You paid for 20MB you should get 20MB (on all content), you pay more and you will get more. How the hell what you say should make any sense. This law does not prevent ISPs to provide better service to consumers, it forbids them to prioritize traffic between different content providers. For example: if your Internet plan of 20MB permits you to watch streaming HD movies at 20MB per second from "20Th Century Fox" ISPs must not intentionally throttle or prioritize "paramount Pictures" streaming content. WTF pokpie?


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 5:25:44 PM , Rating: 3
" You paid for 20MB you should get 20MB"

Please at least attempt to understand the issues here. This is not a discussion about bandwidth. Its about QOS...a totally different concept.

"This law does not prevent ISPs to provide better service to consumers"

It does unless they offer that same QOS to all customers, without charging a nickel more for it. This isn't open to debate. The bill is right there in black and white.


By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/9/2010 5:54:06 PM , Rating: 2
"It does unless they offer that same QOS to all customers"

Quality of service is - ISPs Internet plans, ranging from 1MB to 250MB per second, if you want the best you pay for that. If you want your freaking ultra-fast whatever Internet you inquire your ISP if it offers such speeds, with or without this law ISPs are not not obstructed in upgrading their Infrastructure and offering greater speeds to consumers.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 7:06:53 PM , Rating: 2
"Quality of service is - ISPs Internet plans, ranging from 1MB to 250MB per second, if you want the best you pay for that"

Lol, I'm sorry you don't have a clue. For the last time, QOS has nothing to do with bandwidth. Learn about your topic and stop embarrassing yourself.

QOS relates to a set of management techniques to do one or more of the following:

- reduce latency , and/or set maximum delivery time.
- ensure guaranteed packet delivery
- reduce or eliminate jitter (differences in delivery times between packets)
- reduce or eliminate bit error rates

NONE of this matters for things like web browsing, email, file sharing, etc. And it has nothing to do with average bandwidth either.

Since I suspect you still don't understand, let me elaborate further. A normal connection rated at 10MB/s might actually vary slightly between 9 and 11MB. It might drop 0.1% of packets -- those packets are automatically retransmitted by TCP, so you the end user never notice, but the retransmission makes those particular packets show up in 200ms, rather than 100ms.

These things cause problems for some advanced services. QOS helps prevents that. Your connection is still 10MB ...but no single packet will take longer than 50ms to arrive, for instance. The difference in delivery time between any two packets might vary by no more than 5ms. Packet redelivery is guaranteed to be less than 0.01%, say.

Now do you understand? If not, let me know and I'll try again, this time using smaller words.


By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/9/2010 8:00:26 PM , Rating: 1
"Now do you understand? If not, let me know and I'll try again, this time using smaller words."

What I actually have realized is that your post has nothing to do with what I actually have said, Did you tried to explain what latency is? seriously? Do you think that we are all here stupid? Ever played on-line game porkpie, like you know "counter strike"? We are all here well aware of the latency impact, so there is no need using big words, try to talk like normal human being, not like an asshole.

So, my point still stands. Superior Internet plan - better latency, speed, etc. Know it from my personal experience with the different speed plans from the same Internet provider.


By theendofallsongs on 3/9/2010 8:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
Herr Vitaly, your own words make it pretty plain you don't understand quality of service. In terms of network engineering it has a very specific meaning, it doesn't mean a more "quality" experience or a faster connect.

Advanced networking equipment has a lot of QOS management options. They all pretty much revolve around packet prioritization though, since you can't do better than what the protocol underneath gives you.


By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/10/2010 3:09:32 AM , Rating: 2
"Advanced networking equipment has a lot of QOS management options. They all pretty much revolve around packet prioritize though"

You guys are driving me insane with your dullness.

Internet plan (A) 10Mbps ping 30 plus little technical support

Internet plan (B) 20Mbps ping 25 plus moderate technical support

Internet plan (C) 30Mbps ping 20 plus amazing technical support

That's what is core ISP's business and not filtering and throttling of content. No Nothing in this law forbids them to prioritize traffic between various subscriber models and offer even better one. The law forbids them to prioritize and throttle the content of different nature (from my little blog to googles search engine to random bits of information) within the same Internet plan to end client of his particular plan the client chose. This means that if ISPs advertise Internet plan with the specific characteristic of a Plan (A) (B) (C) it must be provided on all content without a discrimination.


By afkrotch on 3/9/2010 8:58:40 PM , Rating: 2
The latency is where it all plays in, not the bandwith.

Let's say both of us have a 5 mbps connection through the same ISP. Both of us live in the same apt building, in the same apt, just 2 ft from each other. I decided to pay $50 more for lower latency. All content from everywhere will come to me faster.

We both connect online to a video game. Like CS:S or whatever. Doesn't matter. Our comps are exactly the same specs, OS is exactly the same, everything the same. Like I imaged one computer and threw it on the other.

I'm rocking a sweet 10 ms ping time, while you're sporting a 500 ms ping time. Both have 5 mbps service, but I opted for priority.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By Kurz on 3/9/2010 5:39:33 PM , Rating: 2
>.>

Lets say you have max 100MB/sec of bandwidth max through one of the connections the ISP has. Its an outdated connection.

Subscriber A has in contract he is to receive up to 80MB/sec of data. Subscriber B also has a contract with 30MB/sec. Now they both try to connect through the same data link. One subscriber is paying more for the premium access. So in this case do you think subscriber A should give up his speed down to 75MB vs 25MB? Subscriber B probably wont notice the speed drop of 10MB of 80MB vs 20MB.

Plus he isn't paying for the premium package.

Please don't turn the internet into your socialized playground.


By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/9/2010 6:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
"Lets say you have max 100MB/sec of bandwidth max through one of the connections the ISP has"

What the f@uck is this?

I don't care what maximum bandwidth ISP has, just like I don't care what is the condition of their infrastructure.
If they advertised speed of 20Mb, I paid for that speed, I should get exactly 20Mb any day 24/7.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By Kurz on 3/9/2010 6:22:07 PM , Rating: 2
Ummm what world do you live in?
I get higher bandwidth than my max at night.
I get lower bandwidth during the day.

Still I don't notice the difference.
If a company pays a premium for the added speed to ensure they get a higher speed and constantly they should. But if there is going to be a trade off sorry man the person who pays the premium should get the bandwidth.


By VitalyTheUnknown on 3/9/2010 6:38:14 PM , Rating: 2
Again, I do not care what company or individual get for their money it's not my business, I do not care what Internet plan they have, I do not care how much they pay for that, what I do care about, is my legal contract with ISP and it's advertised and signed obligation to provide me with a speed of 20Mb a second on all content.


By Kurz on 3/9/2010 7:09:37 PM , Rating: 2
Then take it up with the company.
Don't let the Fed decide when to get in between you and the company. Take it up with the courts.

Repeal the monopoly contracts. Ensure competition can break in the solid fortress that are our telecommunications monopolies.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By afkrotch on 3/9/2010 11:09:08 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, you paid for 20 mbps. Guess what, huge difference between 1 millisecond and 1000 milliseconds.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By Kurz on 3/10/2010 7:41:35 AM , Rating: 2
What are you talking about?
Thats latency... I am strictly talking about bandwidth.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By afkrotch on 3/10/2010 8:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
If all you are doing is download through P2P or direct downloads, you probably don't care about latency.

But if you're making phone calls, playing games, etc, you'll care. 1 mbps, 1 gbps, 1 tbps, whatever with a full 1 second latency is a horrid connection in those instances.

You'll still get your bandwith. No doubt about that, but again. 1 ms - 1000 ms is a huge difference.


By Kurz on 3/12/2010 1:52:42 AM , Rating: 2
So how does making everyone have the same Latency benefit those who need the low latency. Wall Street, Banking, Hospitals, etc...

Personally I am quite happy with my 100MS pings to my game servers. If I wanted better service I can buy it.


By croc on 3/9/2010 7:18:19 PM , Rating: 1
/start rant...
You're so full of shit that, against my better judgment, I just HAVE to respond...

If a PRIVATE organization, say your hypothetical heart surgery, has a need for fast, reliable comms, then they can arrange for a PRIVATE network. Most ISP's (at least here in AUS) would rather sell bandwidth to someone like a hospital than to the general public. So your PRIVATE organization, using their PRIVATE network, would have a GUARANTEED CIR, a GUARANTEED QOS... And GUARANTEED privacy, either by way of an ISP managed firewall, or the organization's own managed firewall or a combination of the two...

Now, to the issue of the US proposed 'Net neutrality...' If one ISP started offering better QOS over its PUBLIC to someone willing to pay more, that would work well for a customer to customer connection, WITHIN that ISP's customer base. But ISP to ISP? Ever tried to negotiate a roaming agreement with another ISP? I thought not. In fact, I doubt that you have ever worked within an ISP at all, judging by the FUD that YOU spew forth.

/end rant


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By Kary on 3/9/2010 12:56:41 PM , Rating: 2
Porkpie...some searches for you
"Comcast P2P" ...yes, they were blocking traffic between THEIR OWN CUSTOMERS...not delaying...BLOCKING
"Comcast FCC"...Apparently the FCC thinks they might have some power over a communications company...somehow seems appropriate to me
"ATT Google"...Google accounts for most ATTs bandwidth..ATT thinks Google should pay them for providing most of the reason customers pay ATT those high monthly bills

I want net neutrality like phone neutrality...if I want to call Sprint from my ATT phone then I don't think ATT should be able to stop the call, lower the call quality, or otherwise interfere. I expect the same from my ISP (including not being able to listen in, for that matter).


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 2:16:40 PM , Rating: 2
"yes, they were blocking traffic between THEIR OWN CUSTOMERS."

Are they doing so now? No. Did they stop without the intervention of these new Net Neutrality laws? Yes. Did they, in fact, wind up paying a multi-million dollar settlement over their blocking? Yes:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/12/co...

So tell us again why we need massive new legislation to solve a "problem" that doesn't exist.

Furthermore, if the government hadn't given Comcast monopoly status in the first place -- by granting them exclusive cable rights in those areas they service, along with legally barring competition -- the entire problem wouldn't have even existed in the first place. Government was the problem here, not the solution.

If proposed legislation did nothing but ban carriers from blocking access, I (and pretty much everyone else in the world) would be fore it. Instead, its a massive government intrusion and expansion on an area that has functioned very well without it.


By afkrotch on 3/9/2010 11:36:19 PM , Rating: 2
I personally think the government should be involved. If they don't, ISPs will find out a way to screw the consumer, so they can profit.

Seriously, if Comcast decided to just change their TOS, they would be allowed to get away with it. Those consumer protection laws, where do you think they came from? The government.

Also making laws to cover a problem that doesn't exist. Well, much better than waiting for it to exist, then waiting months or years for something to fix the problem.

In the past we rode horses. No problem existed, but we still made cars.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By DM0407 on 3/9/2010 2:47:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Does it really make sense to be forced to deliver baby pics to Grandma Goldenstein's just as fast as the data being used to remote-control a heart-surgery operation in progress at Johns Hopkins?


Are you preforming heart surgery on Second Life? Do you really think that your grandmother sending pictures (who pays a fee to do so) is going to screw up some vital procedure?

Please join us in the 21st century and do a little research on network infrastructure.

I wonder how many brain surgeries have failed because Ashton Kutcher has 1M followers on Twitter, or because you updated your Facebook profile with "Trolling on the internet."


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 4:01:03 PM , Rating: 2
Please try to think clearly....it's not difficult with a little practice.

Such tasks as remote operations will not take place until ultra low latency, guaranteed-delivery connections are available on the Internet. You can't risk it otherwise.

With net neutrality, such connections are illegal -- until every single packet that moves on the Internet can be treated as such. Which means they can't be deployed until such services are cheap enough to include by default in every single offering a provider has.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By JHBoricua on 3/9/2010 4:43:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Such tasks as remote operations will not take place until ultra low latency, guaranteed-delivery connections are available on the Internet. You can't risk it otherwise.
Hmm, that's were MPLS-based private IP networks come in. They provide the resiliency and low-latency needed for the scenario you are describing. There's plenty of carriers offering them now and nothing on this bill suggest that they will be prevented from doing so.


RE: So called "Net Neutrality" is Bull$!@!
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 4:57:20 PM , Rating: 2
"Hmm, that's were MPLS-based private IP networks come in. They provide the resiliency and low-latency needed..."

You don't understand the technology. MPLS operating over the Internet can't lower latency without service providers recognizing and acting upon the embedded QOS tag in every MPLS packet. It's not magic fairy dust...it can't mystically deliver packets faster than the service its riding upon.

Prioritizing traffic like this is specifically barred by the terms of the proposed Net Neutrality bill, as I demonstrated in the posts above.

Now, MPLS (or any of a half-dozen other technologies) can offer low-latency on a fully all private network. But do you honestly seeing a hospital laying its own cables to a doctor's office across the country, just to offer a service like this?


By afkrotch on 3/9/2010 11:38:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now, MPLS (or any of a half-dozen other technologies) can offer low-latency on a fully all private network. But do you honestly seeing a hospital laying its own cables to a doctor's office across the country, just to offer a service like this?


If that link is important enough, yes. I do see them doing it.


All or nothing
By Bateluer on 3/9/2010 8:25:45 AM , Rating: 4
Either you back full Net Neutrality and play within the rules of equitable fairness, or you don't and you screw the consumer. There's no in between here. Either you are with the consumer and support Neutrality or you're with Big Content.




RE: All or nothing
By myhipsi on 3/9/2010 9:44:42 AM , Rating: 5
Exactly. That's like promoting free speech, except when someone says something offensive, which is the whole point of free speech to begin with.

"We don't censor content, except when we disagree with it"


RE: All or nothing
By invidious on 3/9/2010 11:33:12 AM , Rating: 2
Net neutrality has a lot more to do with ensuring a free market/fair trade than it does with sticking up for consumers.


RE: All or nothing
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 11:42:54 AM , Rating: 2
It's shocking how few people truly understand net neutrality. There is nothing "free market" about government laws preventing companies from offering certain services.


RE: All or nothing
By JHBoricua on 3/9/2010 4:44:33 PM , Rating: 1
Which is not the case here.


RE: All or nothing
By Bateluer on 3/9/2010 6:25:34 PM , Rating: 2
Such Cox Communications offering signing a deal with Pizza Hut to redirect all Internet traffic for 'pizza' to www.pizzahut.com and intercepting a phone call to the local pizza joint and rerouting it to Pizza Hut.

Net Neutrality states that all data packets on a network must be treated equally, with none having preferences. This is a good thing for both businesses, especially small businesses, and consumers. Small businesses do not have resources to get onto the 'fast lane' or 'preferred' Internet.

Net Neutrality is a major boon to the free market, and one of the few instances where government intervention would actually be a good thing.


RE: All or nothing
By Kurz on 3/9/2010 8:59:04 PM , Rating: 2
Let me ask how do you have free market when you beat up all those who need the faster low latency connection?

Not everyone needs the same kind of connection.
That is why you have different pay grades for service.
From the little cheap ass connection that's hardly better than dial up to the uber super low latency connection with massive bandwidth.

All you are going to do is miss allocate resources and make harder for businesses that need the high speed connection.

You think everyone is going to pay for the exclusive right to have their internet faster? Businesses will only buy what they need when it comes to an internet connection.

To your example Why would cox communications do that to their customers. It'll harm the good will and trust of all its customers. And people will sue to make sure they intend to go where they want to on the net.


RE: All or nothing
By afkrotch on 3/9/2010 11:45:55 PM , Rating: 2
If Cox Comm decide to do the Pizza Hut thing, what's to stop them?

I feel net neutrality should be put in place for those regular consumers. Business customers are in a different league, as they have much different needs.


RE: All or nothing
By Kurz on 3/10/2010 7:43:15 AM , Rating: 2
I already said whats to stop them.
They'd get sued...


RE: All or nothing
By Lazarus Dark on 3/11/2010 7:35:23 PM , Rating: 2
"example Why would cox communications do that to their customers. It'll harm the good will and trust of all its customers"

lol. I have never heard a single person say anything good about Cox.

Anyway, I say, why would any service be slower? Why not super-fast connection for EVERYTHING. period. Then there's no problem so long as they don't purposely slow anyones connection (which is what this is largely about in my opinion.) I think net neutrality should be simple: everyone gets access to the same speed and content.

What if companies could pay to own the fast lane on the highway? sure, its important for goods to be delivered quickly, but my time is valuable too, I deserve to ride in the fast lane without having to pay a large sum (I realize roads are government owned-or publicly owned depending on your perspective, but really since the internet was created by the DoD and thanks to large subsidies, I think the people should own the internet pipes as much as the roads)


RE: All or nothing
By Kurz on 3/11/2010 11:03:12 PM , Rating: 2
There is a difference between good service and service that impedes you from getting the content you want.

I don't think you know anything about the cost of those high speed connections. So force everyone to have the same connection. You'll have to make a sacrifice in the balance.
Either everyone is going to have a slower connection with the same price. Or pay a lot more money to in order to make sure everyone can have the same speed as the big boys.
They do have to make upgrades.

It all comes down to economies of scale. Thats why most service providers have multiple tiers to enable people who want to have a slower connection for less or those who needs those hundreds of MB/sec connections. Plus to over beef their network for those who don't need or want all that speed.

Like I said most likely YOU DONT NEED the Bandwidth or Latency like some businesses need it. By forcing everyone to have the same connection you will be hurting those businesses from performing as usual.

Umm... those companies want you to have that access because it brings in revenue for them. SO you are already paying for it.

Btw I have Cox the only compliant I have is the lack of webspace with my level of service. Though like most markets the state governments ***** up in its reduced competition and ensured the local monopolies.


RE: All or nothing
By Lazarus Dark on 3/18/2010 6:48:39 PM , Rating: 2
I think your confusing bandwidth you paid for with net nuetrality. I pay for 6 meg a second. What some companies want to do is either pay to get their service to me at a higher rate (say 10 meg a second) without me paying more, or more maliciously, paying the isp to have thier competitors service only allowed to send me data at one meg a second, thereby making thier services look unequal, when in fact, both services may be the same given a fair chance. I'm still paying for the same 6 meg a second, but some companies want to pay extra to decide who gets to USE my full bandwidth.

I just want the same 6 meg a second to remain available to any service I choose.


I hope the exceptions get a higher priority
By DukeN on 3/9/2010 7:48:29 AM , Rating: 2
I'd be OK if the pirated stuff got higher priority, just to screw these music industry crooks.




By thekdub on 3/9/2010 8:20:03 AM , Rating: 3
Not everyone in the music industry is a crook. A lot of the guys running these smaller indie labels are just trying to eke out a living like you and me, and do what they do because they love music, not for the money. I've got no problem buying albums from these guys because of that.

Its when you start talking about (most of) the RIAA-backed labels that you start talking about crooks who are more concerned about raking in the dough than actually producing quality music.


Pro Net neutrality... anti-government regulating
By tayb on 3/9/2010 10:42:37 AM , Rating: 3
Let's be honest here the net neutrality legislation being put forth isn't for the benefit of the consumers it is for the benefit of the federal government. There was actually a provision in an earlier segment of this bill that may not have even been removed that gave the federal government the power to SHUT DOWN your privately owned internet access during "emergencies." I'm sorry but the government has absolutely no business owning that sort of power. Let's get net neutrality so I can continue surfing the web as I do now but let's get it done without the government basically outright owning the network and/or having the authority to control what you can do and when you can do it.

Also, you can't be pro net neutrality and then be selective about which things remain neutral. If you want net neutrality everything is the same, nothing gets higher priority. It's the same concept as the people who preach freedom of the press and freedom of speech then try to limit those rights to people who disagree with their points of view. Either you want it or you don't want it. There is no middle ground on these issues.




By chagrinnin on 3/9/2010 12:09:51 PM , Rating: 2
Ah yes,...that other, not-so-popular "Selective Net Nuetrality".


Exchange of information.
By rvertrees on 3/9/2010 3:41:52 PM , Rating: 2
I dont think the government should have any say in how information is transfered between individuals. I think it would be best to keep the government out of the ISP industry. I would feel much more comfortable being able to vote with my wallet if my ISP decides to limit my access to certian content. When the Government decides to limit a certain content what will you do then.




RE: Exchange of information.
By afkrotch on 3/9/2010 11:55:20 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, because when there's only 1 ISP in your area, you really can vote with your wallet.

I think the government should come in and say last mile is free for use by any ISP.

Definitely see a whole lot of competition crop up.


Binary
By B on 3/9/2010 2:14:40 PM , Rating: 2
It seems to me that this issue is binary. Either the net it is nuetral or its not.




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