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Thanks to Toyota, all future vehicles may come with black boxes

Electronics are prolific in many markets today from the computer industry to automotive and aerospace industries. Some aircraft today are so complex that they couldn’t fly without computers. Many vehicles are now using technology and electronics that were once only in aircraft like throttle by wire and boxes that can record events leading up to an accident.

Toyota has had a very rough year with massive recalls across many of its vehicle lines for various reasons including highly publicized bouts of unintended acceleration. The U.S. Department of Transportation fined Toyota a record $16.4 million this year for deceiving regulators on how widespread the issues with its automobiles were. The government called in a wide range of experts to determine what was causing issues with vehicle electronics and NASA as well as the National Academy of Sciences was part of the investigation.

Congress is now eyeing new legislation that would force the automotive industry to make safety updates to vehicles in the wake of the massive recalls by Toyota. If the legislation were made into law, all automakers would be required to install black boxes into their automobiles and to pay fees to the government to fund safety agencies.

The black boxes would record vehicle parameters leading up to an accident to help investigators determine if the accident was an issue with the vehicle or driver error. The draft of the legislation was released by Energy and Commerce Chairman Henry Waxman of California. The legislation would also remove any caps on civil penalties a carmaker was subject to.

The legislation would also give the NHTSA the power to order an immediate recall of vehicles if it finds that there is an "imminent hazard of death or serious injury." Other sections of the draft legislation would impose new safety standards that relate to brake override systems and preventing pedals from being trapped on the floor.

Yahoo Finance reports that Toyota has already agreed to add brake override systems to all future models and to add the systems to some existing vehicles as well. These override systems would automatically cut the throttle when the driver stepped on the brake. That feature will signal the death of parking lot burnouts.

Under the legislation, any executive in the auto industry who provides false information to the government would be subject to fines of as much as $250 million. The legislation would also add a new "vehicle user fee" of $3 per vehicle that would increase to $9 per vehicle by the third year the fee was enacted. The money would be used to fund the NHTSA, which is said to be underfunded and unequipped to investigate vehicle safety issues. A hearing on the proposed legislation is set for next week and Congress will consider the legislation later this year.

The issues with the safety of Toyota vehicles certainly led to the new legislation. Toyota has announced that it has appointed a six member panel comprised of Norman Augustine, a former chairman and CEO of Lockheed Martin Corp.; Patricia Goldman, a former vice chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board; and Brian O'Neill, a former president of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety to advise it in safety and quality issues.



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Then...
By Shadowself on 4/30/2010 10:17:04 AM , Rating: 5
If this becomes law and required for, say 2012 cars and newer, I will only be buying pre 2012 cars from now on.

If I am commercially transporting other people then a box that records my actions is warranted. However, a box that records my actions in my personal vehicle is going too far.




RE: Then...
By HotFoot on 4/30/2010 10:23:25 AM , Rating: 2
Absolutely agree, if the box keeps a record longer than about a minute - even 30 seconds prior to an event like a crash ought to be enough.

If done right, the black box doesn't have to compromise privacy any more than an accident already does - people will already know you were at the scene of the accident at the time. This could very much help crash investigation and improve vehicle safety. Hopefully, it could cut down on litigation expenses as well, as it will be easier to prove who's at fault in an accident.

It all MUST be done with the philosophy of gathering only what data is necessary and nothing more.


RE: Then...
By Adonlude on 4/30/2010 1:51:53 PM , Rating: 4
Big Brother isn't making a nest in any of my property! Black box removal will be first on my list of car modifications.


RE: Then...
By albundy2 on 5/1/2010 3:47:01 AM , Rating: 3
do you have onstar?


RE: Then...
By Redwin on 5/3/2010 10:12:42 AM , Rating: 2
Considering he intends to immediately remove any future black boxes, I'm going to guess he's among the fairly large group of people who think OnStar is a bit creepy, and refuse to buy GM vehicles because of it.


RE: Then...
By Adonlude on 5/4/2010 1:08:04 PM , Rating: 2
No, my 1999 Honda does not have Onstar. I would not allow Onstar to function in my vehicle if I had to have a car that came with it.


RE: Then...
By jhb116 on 5/1/2010 7:45:03 AM , Rating: 3
You also use that "private property" on PUBLIC property which you share with the greater public.

I agree, though, that the memory should be limited and the recall should be limited to a police officer conducting an investigation - ie physical interface required versus wireless. If the device is removed - then the individual who removed the device becomes automatically at fault for the accident.


RE: Then...
By Samus on 5/2/2010 2:45:00 AM , Rating: 3
First of all, ALL vehicles with a RCM (restraint control module) which is basically any car with more than two airbags already has a blackbox. They don't take as much information as this box does, but they are pretty log-hungry. I dumped my RCM after crashing my car at an autocross a few years ago at a Ford dealer my buddy was a tech at...I was curious what my actual speed was prior to brake lockup.

To make a long story short, there was actually a field, and I am not fucking with you guys, for RADIO VOLUME, in the log dump. This was a 2002 Focus.

This is nothing new. They're making a big deal out of technology that had been in cars for a decade. The difference is the media these days exploiting it so everybody knows. In this case, at Toyota's expense.

And parking lot burnouts? I'm sure thats the least of Toyota's concerns, they haven't made a real sports car in 15 years. The sportiest thing they have for under 30 grand is a Corolla XRS. Lexus has that LFA but its so expensive nobody can buy it, and I wouldn't exactly consider it a sports car, anyway...just a fast luxury car.

I don't know why the smallest automotive manufactures in Japan are still the only ones that make sports cars, most of which are among their highest profit margin models (Mazda RX8, Nissan GT-R, Infiniti G37.) No, the Civic Type R, Subaru Imprezza and Mitsubishi Lancer are not sports cars...they're econoboxes with some factory-warranties modifications. The ride qualities are all terrible, the interiors are a joke, and most of the people who buy them are terrible drivers trying to mimick Vin Deisel or Ken Block.


RE: Then...
By mindless1 on 4/30/2010 3:39:13 PM , Rating: 2
That's not absolutely agreeing at all. The point is that it not exist, that it not monitor people and that we not have to pay more for this addition into a vehicle.

Big Brother should not decide how I spend my money! Obviously we have to deal with taxes but I am not at all pleased with the idea they know what is best for me to the point of it being forced upon me... which it is, once you accept the average person cannot buy some old car that predates this forever in the future.


RE: Then...
By brshoemak on 5/1/2010 12:18:13 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Big Brother should not decide how I spend my money! Obviously we have to deal with taxes but I am not at all pleased with the idea they know what is best for me to the point of it being forced upon me


Well you can sell your air bag for a couple hundred bucks probably. Your seat belts could net you some cash too. That way, 'Big Brother' won't be forcing those added costs on to you. Don't forget to take out ABS and traction control while your at it, those can be pretty annoying at times.


RE: Then...
By FranksAndBeans on 4/30/2010 10:23:42 AM , Rating: 5
Are you driving an OBDII vehicle currently? Cuz if you are I have a surprise for you...

Only thing this would change is perhaps the scope (length of time recorded) and ease/commonality of data extraction. It is already in place on just about every vehicle made in the past 10 years or so... varies by make.


RE: Then...
By puckalicious on 4/30/2010 10:42:28 AM , Rating: 2
Most people don't even know this. All modern vehicles already have a "black box".


RE: Then...
By gamerk2 on 4/30/2010 11:04:53 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, black boxes have been installed in cars for decades now; easiest way to determine fault in a traffic collision is to ask for a third party to get info from the black boxes. [Also a good way to fight (or not, depending) speeding violations)


RE: Then...
By CZroe on 4/30/2010 11:26:47 AM , Rating: 2
But they aren't currently government-mandated. It isn't their job and shouldn't be. Currently, if a customer wants to modify their vehicle they can circumvent or disable it as well as any other non-mandatory safety system. Do you think the governement would be as lenient with them circumventing now mandatory nanny technology?

Also, not nearly all vehicles have it today. Do you really think my $3,000 Ninja 250R has one?! Not a chance.


RE: Then...
By Spivonious on 4/30/2010 12:37:09 PM , Rating: 2
OBD II systems have been mandated in vehicles for 10 years.


RE: Then...
By CZroe on 5/1/2010 5:24:50 AM , Rating: 1
Then I'll task you with finding it on my 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R (EX250J), which is my only transportation. I bought it brand new a year and a half ago... not 10 years ago.


RE: Then...
By Samus on 5/2/10, Rating: 0
RE: Then...
By Ichinisan on 5/2/2010 8:04:14 PM , Rating: 3
You're right: His bike does have two cats. He's right too: It does not have an ODB II port.


RE: Then...
By Spivonious on 5/3/2010 7:56:25 AM , Rating: 2
Obviously I didn't include motorcycles in "vehicles".


RE: Then...
By amdsupport on 4/30/2010 8:38:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most people don't even know this. All modern vehicles already have a "black box".


Thats not true...my 2008 VW specifically states in the manual that the vehicle is not equipped with a "black box" type device. If I recall correctly, its in large bold letters so VW must have received a few questions on the matter to do such a thing.

I have heard GM and Ford equip some of their vehicles with them, but I have never had a GM or Ford long enough to look in the manual.


RE: Then...
By tastyratz on 5/5/2010 11:22:49 PM , Rating: 2
Partially right.
People are misinterpreting obd2 for a black box - its not.
OBD2 was mainly invented to standardize diagnostic and emissions compliance testing.
This will log diagnostic codes as well as running conditions.

Any additional information logged is INDEPENDENT of the obd2 standard.

If you want to know true rpm, water temp, or that your check engine light is for bank1 o2 sensor... obd2 is there for that.
But again-
OBD2 is NOT a "black box"


RE: Then...
By Shadowself on 4/30/2010 12:45:00 PM , Rating: 1
My current car is a 1987 Honda Accord with 250,000+ miles on it that I bought NEW. I've kept it in great shape with annual maintenance and such. I figure I've got annother 5+ years on it before the maintenance starts escalating.

Also this black box would record more than what OBDII includes or why else have it?


RE: Then...
By rcc on 4/30/2010 2:44:33 PM , Rating: 2
If the current congress mandates it, I'll bet you a nickel it store GPS information as well.


RE: Then...
By mindless1 on 4/30/2010 3:43:28 PM , Rating: 2
They do not record all these parameters the proposed box would, nor as long, and AFAIK the OBDII doesn't use non-volatile memory does it? In other words simply disconnecting the battery clears it or is that only ODBI? Either way there is still a common /easy way for end users to clear it and most of all we aren't paying more for development and inclusion of new tech without wanting it. I'm all for electronic engine control as a system to run a car. To monitor the conditions during a crash? Not so much, and I state this as someone who hasn't caused a crash more severe than a fender bender years ago so it's not about trying to hide personal driving flaws.


RE: Then...
By amanojaku on 4/30/2010 10:37:48 AM , Rating: 2
I'm going to get rated down, but what the hell...

These "black boxes" aren't designed to spy on your daily activities. They're designed to show what you were doing right before a crash. Consider the number of people who claimed their brakes failed to respond and the evidence pointing to driver error. Without an event data recorder, that only contains a few seconds' worth of information, like car speed, pedals depressed, airbags deployed, seat belts plugged in, etc... it would be difficult, if not impossible, to identify the cause of the accident. I'm no fan of spying, but the fact is if I have a bottle of alcohol in my car and I have an accident I'd like my EDR results to back up the breathalyzer results, proving my innocence.

That being said, these devices COULD be modified to record a lot more information, but there are ways to protect yourself.

1) By law, no one is allowed to obtain your EDR data without your consent or a court order; that's no different than the police obtaining a search warrant for your house
2) You can obtain the EDR data yourself if you really want to know what's in it
3) If you pay someone like OnStar to monitor your car you've automatically given them access to your EDR data; the company is still prevented from spreading your information around without your consent

Automotive EDRs do not contain GPS units by default, and GPS is only installed if you pay for a monitoring service like OnStar. EDR's do not contain a history of where you've been. EDR's do not contain a history beyond a few seconds.


RE: Then...
By Souka on 4/30/2010 11:32:11 AM , Rating: 2
Well if the "feds" are making us put these in, I could easily see it being a violation of a fedral law if you tamper with these.

Now here's the question I have... would this data be available to insurance carriers? to police officers? Or would this just be used in extreme cases like the problems Toyota has been having?

Anyhow... I personally am fine with a device that records local car information for a minute or two prior to a incident (aka, crash)... but I would definietly be irritated if this data was accessible wirelessly. Even more pissed if a cop could read the data to support a speeding or other traffic violation...

Anyhow... will it prevent me from driving a car? Nope. Driving is a right, it's a privelage....obey the laws or don't drive...

:)


RE: Then...
By Souka on 4/30/2010 11:34:51 AM , Rating: 2
*sigh*.. I'd better correct myself before someone is kind enough to point it out.

Last sentance shoudl read, "Driving isn't a right, it's a privelage..."


RE: Then...
By NullSubroutine on 4/30/2010 12:56:46 PM , Rating: 2
Actually driving on PUBLIC ROADS is a privilege...


RE: Then...
By Steele on 4/30/2010 6:33:27 PM , Rating: 2
And so is driving on private roads.


RE: Then...
By AEvangel on 5/8/2010 11:11:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Last sentance shoudl read, "Driving isn't a right, it's a privelage..."


I would disagree we as citizens have the right to travel and give today's environment it is practically impossible to travel this country with out driving or surrendering your rights to some state power to do so. You can no longer simply walk as most of the time you will be crossing over private property which is trespassing and you cannot walk along Highways which your money paid for. The only alternative is mass transit and in allot of area's it is non existent.

So the trite little statement that driving is privilege is really outdated for almost the last 50 years.

I also find it surprising that majority of the populace accepts that statement as fact with out question, especially considering that our money pay for all the roads that we then have to ask permission to drive on.


RE: Then...
By invidious on 4/30/2010 11:17:38 AM , Rating: 2
It is required for automakers to installed them. Not required for you to keep it installed. If you are really that paranoid just go in and cut the wiring.

I would take a lot of storage space to record your actions for any significant period of time. Its not like its going to have GPS location or wireless transmission capabilities. That would cost hundreds of dollars and would require regular maintenance to ensure it kept working throughout the life of the car.


RE: Then...
By zmatt on 4/30/2010 1:10:55 PM , Rating: 2
perhaps you haven't kept up with technology, but flash drives with several gigabytes of storage are very common and cheap. You could equip these with a few gigs and then just wipe them at every oil change. The data is most likely stored as text anyways so it wouldn't take up much space.


RE: Then...
By mindless1 on 4/30/2010 3:47:11 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, enough flash memory to store months if not years of data would be a very small % of total cost to implement these.

It need not even be text though, just rows and columns of numbers would suffice given they need a machine to read it anyway which can interpret rather than it needing be in a higher human language format.


RE: Then...
By JediJeb on 4/30/2010 5:32:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is required for automakers to installed them. Not required for you to keep it installed. If you are really that paranoid just go in and cut the wiring.


Unless it is incorporated into the engine computer then cutting the wires would make your engine not run.


RE: Then...
By YashBudini on 4/30/2010 8:11:41 PM , Rating: 1
In a nation that's run by pathological liars and is populated by the same I would sooner have the car tell the story of what happened. Why should I have to bear the front of allegations if I didn't do anything wrong? How often do 2 cars collide at an intersection and both swear they had the green light?

As far as losing privacy is concerned you should have started yelling even before the PATRIOT Act, not for this stuff. But then that's the problem with people, isn't it? The inability to prioritize.

The very people who want this device removed are the ones who don't hestitate to lie to the police and not take responsibility for their actions. They also got very upset when they could no longer commit fraud by rolling back speedometers. Frankly why should anybody give a shit about people like that? The sooner the law screws them the sooner they stop screwing everyone else.

This is as close as we're ever going to get to the kind of tax this country is just begging for; the asshole tax.


RE: Then...
By YashBudini on 5/1/2010 8:08:22 PM , Rating: 2
If the average person doesn't have a single ethical bone in their body.


Problem, reaction, solution
By stilltrying on 4/30/2010 11:18:36 AM , Rating: 2
Never let a good crisis go to waste. Hegelian dialectic.




RE: Problem, reaction, solution
By YashBudini on 4/30/2010 8:13:37 PM , Rating: 2
And the 2004 RNC.


RE: Problem, reaction, solution
By straycat74 on 4/30/2010 8:39:56 PM , Rating: 2
I believe you mean
quote:
“You don’t ever want a crisis to go to waste; it’s an opportunity to do important things that you would otherwise avoid.” — Rahm Emanuel


Do you know who he is?


just another
By shin0bi272 on 5/1/2010 8:55:38 AM , Rating: 3
Just another of your liberties being usurped by the federal government. Anyone ready to overthrow them yet? vote them all out! remember remember the 2nd of november...




RE: just another
By Gungel on 5/2/2010 8:03:07 AM , Rating: 1
I feel sorry for you if you really think voting in a different party on Nov. 2nd will remove black boxes from our cars. Be prepared for some disappointment on that issue.


RE: just another
By ekv on 5/3/2010 4:36:31 AM , Rating: 2
I grew up with the song Won't Get Fooled Again ... "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". As for such a specific instance as black boxes, perhaps disappointment would be expected. To put an end to the clinically insane level of spending? I certainly hope that there is some change. Change in the positive direction, not the deceptive 'when I said "change" I meant the pennies left in your pocket...' kind.

More government is not the solution. If you think it is I have a bridge in Brooklyn that needs to be repaired. You may henceforth give me $911 million USD. My campaign contribution will be in the mail after I receive the bail-out. If you don't bail me out then my team of lawyers will sue you on behalf of all the illegal aliens that would be endangered by crossing the bridge. I'm afraid SEIU will have to be strike as well, probably blockade traffic. Etc. I'm sure I left out some special interest groups.... My lawyers will work on it [which will add to the bill].

If black boxes already have the capability, how about less government intrusion? How about a simple directive to keep a minute or so of (relevant) data before an event? Why does everything have to be a Federal freaking case.


NHTSA has been negligent IMO
By Beenthere on 4/30/2010 10:27:52 AM , Rating: 2
NHTSA has been a joke for a long time. They use lack of funding as an excuse for failing to properly perform their job IMO. I have no problem with black boxes that record driving actions for accident review. Driver error is the primary cause of accidents not vehicle design.

NHTSA however knows of safety issues that currently exist yet they allow certain car makers to get away with safety issues by extending the warranty of a component that can result in a serious accident. This is unacceptable and inappropriate and NHTSA should be held accountable for their failure to protect consumers against known safety issues IMO.

NHTSA is way too friendly with certain car makers IMO.




By YashBudini on 5/3/2010 12:24:35 AM , Rating: 2
Pffft, all branches of government that protect people from corporations have been castrated.


burnouts in a Prius......
By zmatt on 4/30/2010 1:05:55 PM , Rating: 2
It's not like people were doing parking lot burnouts in modern Toyotas anyways....

I'm a little concerned over the black boxes. It's a good idea, but the technology could easily be abused.




RE: burnouts in a Prius......
By mindless1 on 4/30/2010 3:49:28 PM , Rating: 2
I'm all for making it an optional accessory on cars, a single line-item feature anyone can opt to pay for like underbody rust inhibitor. Where it crosses the line is forcing it upon people.


By wookie1 on 4/30/2010 12:17:47 PM , Rating: 3
In addition to the ridiculous new mileage standards, here are 2 more ways to increase the costs of a new vehicle. The cost of the black box, plus an additional tax on consumers to keep the NHTSA flush with cash. What, it's only a few bucks per vehicle you say? Sure it is right now. What's that saying about the camel's nose getting under the tent? I'm sure that it can be quietly raised over time.




Question
By AssBall on 4/30/2010 11:14:38 AM , Rating: 2
The black boxes would record vehicle parameters leading up to an accident to help investigators determine if the accident was an issue with the vehicle or driver error.

Is an accident caused by road head going to be classified as a driver error, passenger error, or vehicle error? Road head without a passenger sounds like an enticing optional feature (are you listening, GM?).




Stand up and win
By MonkeyPaw on 4/30/2010 1:04:50 PM , Rating: 2
If the black box is the only thing that survives the crash, then why don't webuild the entire car out of the black box?




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