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Honda's new Insight looks quite familiar

In early September, DailyTech first brought you news of Honda's new Insight Concept Hybrid. With the demise of the original, two-seat Insight hybrid vehicle, the new concept marks Honda's second foray into a hybrid-only vehicle design.

Honda previously stated that Toyota's Prius gained fame and huge sales numbers due to its unique shape compared to other vehicles on the road. Honda's Civic Hybrid is often overlooked because of its plebian styling which is shared with the standard Civic -- the new Insight aims to change this, however.

Unfortunately for Honda, aerodynamics play a huge part in designing an ultra-fuel efficient vehicle, so the new Insight looks remarkably similar in its overall design theme to the already slippery Toyota Prius. This detail was noticed by many when the first pictures of the Insight were released, but was further confirmed when new shots showing the rear of the vehicle were revealed.

The new Insight is also very close in external dimensions to the Prius and is within three inches in all directions.

Honda confirmed that the production Insight will use a 1.3-liter gasoline engine paired with a next generation Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid system. Honda cost-reduced its latest IMA design in order to bring the Insight to the U.S. with a sub-$19,000 price tag. For comparison, Toyota's Prius starts at over $21,000.

Other new information revealed at the Paris Auto Show is that the new Insight will have fuel economy ratings identical to the Honda Civic Hybrid – 40 MPG city, 45 MPG highway (for comparison, a Prius gets 45/48). The identical fuel economy ratings to the Civic Hybrid with its more conventional shape, however, may raise some eyebrows as to the efficiency of the Insight’s aerodynamic shape.

Honda expects to sell 200,000 of its next generation Insight globally each year. 



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I refuse to believe
By Choppedliver on 10/3/2008 9:12:47 AM , Rating: 2
... that aerodynamic shape and aesthetically pleasing are mutually exclusive. This car is ugly. And so is the Toyota it copies.




RE: I refuse to believe
By pauldovi on 10/3/2008 9:19:37 AM , Rating: 5
That is what everyone said when the 2006 Civic came out. Seems to be as popular as ever as the #1 selling car in the US.


RE: I refuse to believe
By mmntech on 10/3/2008 10:27:48 AM , Rating: 2
I still prefer my 2005 Civic even if it is pedestrian looking. The newer one is an acquired taste though. It's certainly not Honda's ugliest car. What about the Element. That thing is actually uglier inside than it is outside.

This car looks like they've merged the Civic with the Prius. It has the same back that the Prius has but it has the sleek body of the new Civic models. People (yuppies) like the Prius because it looks like a hybrid. I think that's why Honda has copied its design. Besides, most consumer cars look vary similar to each other anyway and at least this one is slightly less ugly than the original Insight.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Hare on 10/4/2008 4:34:52 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
People (yuppies) like the Prius because it looks like a hybrid.
Who knew. I always thought that genuine and wannabe eco-people bought hybrids and yuppies drove BMWs or Audis.


RE: I refuse to believe
By quiksilvr on 10/4/2008 3:42:15 PM , Rating: 1
Yuppies drive BMWs and Mercedes. Audi's are kinda that in-between car that says "I am arrogant but have enough sense not to destroy my wallet just to prove a point. People that drive Lamborghini or Ferrari's are uber yuppies that are not only extremely arrogant but are in desperate need for some tang. Porshe's are that in-between car from yuppies to uber yuppies that says "I am arrogant but not really desperate for that high quality tang." Hybrid buyers consist of two type of people: a person that is a wannabe eco-person that wants to show the world "hey look at me I'm helping the planet". Mac people tend to fall under this category as well. The second type of person is someone that just doesn't feel like spending that much money on gas anymore and realizes that despite the higher price tag, in the long run it saves money.


RE: I refuse to believe
By AssBall on 10/4/2008 5:13:30 PM , Rating: 4
What does your super special judgemental discerning ass drive? A Cobalt? An Aveo? A Suzuki? Smart Four-Two?

Some people like to drive Mercs and BMW because they are built well and they drive excellently. If that makes them yuppies because you are jealous that they can afford them, that'd be a personal problem.


RE: I refuse to believe
By quiksilvr on 10/5/08, Rating: 0
RE: I refuse to believe
By slunkius on 10/6/2008 12:40:21 AM , Rating: 3
but you conveniently ignored his question and proceeded to insult him. that makes you an a$$


RE: I refuse to believe
By afkrotch on 10/6/2008 9:16:28 AM , Rating: 2
Mercedes and BMWs are not built as well as a Japanese car, but they do drive well. That is, when you don't find one broken down along the autobahn. The ppl I see driving them are older and rarely make use of the engine under the hood, if at all. They are the kind of cars I end up passing by at 180 kph along the autobahn and I know those Mercs and BMWs can easily do higher than that. I've just got a 96 Opel Tigra. Not here long enough to bother getting something better.

When I'm no longer moving around the world, I'll settle down on getting a 99 Impreza 2.5RS and going for a Group N conversion.


RE: I refuse to believe
By ebakke on 10/4/08, Rating: 0
RE: I refuse to believe
By ebakke on 10/4/2008 11:17:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The second type of person is someone that just doesn't feel like spending that much money on gas anymore and realizes that despite the higher price tag, in the long run it saves money.

In the long run it might save money. Assuming: gas continues to rise in price, you drive a lot (>10,000 miles per year), you don't get in an accident, you don't sell the car, the maintenance costs are comparable, and you couldn't make any profit/interest on the money you would've saved by buying the non-hybrid.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Hare on 10/5/2008 4:50:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yuppies drive BMWs and Mercedes. Audi's are kinda that in-between car that says "I am arrogant but have enough sense not to destroy my wallet just to prove a point.

BMWs are generally cheaper than Audis at this side of the pond. Oh, and old geezers drive Mercedes excluding SLK and CLK models ;)


RE: I refuse to believe
By togaman5000 on 10/4/2008 6:56:39 PM , Rating: 3
Yuppies? My mom drives a Prius, as she truly does want to reduce her emissions. As for being a yuppie, well, she's an elementary school teacher who makes under $40,000 a year, despite having a requisite master's degree. Personally I wouldn't classify that as yuppie, and all that stereotype is doing is reinforcing a particular South Park episode.


RE: I refuse to believe
By michael2k on 10/3/2008 10:23:22 AM , Rating: 2
You have to wait for computers to get faster; compare the original Stealth Bomber to today's Raptor.

So in 10 years you will see aerodynamic and aesthetically pleasing... but not today.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 11:29:10 AM , Rating: 2
This is true, the Infiniti G37 has a CD of .30. The Prius is .29. I could not find the frontal area of the G37 although I thought I found that before. The "old" G35 has the same CD and is VERY close in frontal area as the Prius. I do know that G37 has a larger frontal area than the old G35.

So, yes, a car can be pretty and still be aerodynamically sleek.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 12:08:59 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
The Prius is .29.

Prius has 0.26 Cd. There is only one other production vehicle that beats it but only on the highway. That car is Lexus LS430 with air suspension which lowers itself on the highway achieving 0.25 Cd.

FYI, the original Insight got 0.25 Cd with the ugly rear wheel skirts but it is no longer in production.


RE: I refuse to believe
By monomer on 10/3/2008 12:11:20 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, probably more interesting is the G35 Sedan which has a CD of 0.29, and has the advantage that it comes with rear seats in which someone would actually want to sit in. You do give up some of the looks, but it does prove your point that the Prius style is not the only choice.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 12:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
more interesting is the G35 Sedan which has a CD of 0.29

That's nothing interesting because even the Camry gets 0.27 Cd.

quote:
has the advantage that it comes with rear seats in which someone would actually want to sit in.

Have you ever been in the Prius rear seat?

G35 Rear Leg Room: 34.7 in.
Prius Rear Leg Room: 38.6 in.


RE: I refuse to believe
By monomer on 10/3/2008 1:21:26 PM , Rating: 1
Well, the original post was that you could have a good looking car, and still keep a low CD. While the Camry isn't bad looking, I doubt it would win any beauty pageants, while in my opinion the G37 and G35 are a couple of the best looking cars on the road.

As for the rear seat, I was comparing the G35 to the G37. Yes the Prius has alot more leg room, but at least the G35 is tolerable compared to the G37.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 1:58:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Well, the original post was that you could have a good looking car, and still keep a low CD.... in my opinion the G37 and G35 are a couple of the best looking cars on the road.

Looks are subjective but most people judge the look by the rims and tires. Prius with 15" rims becomes ugly instantly to most eyes.

I have 17" rims on my Prius and I think it is the best looking car on the road and has low aerodynamic 0.26 Cd.

Some pics:

http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-modi...
http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-modi...
http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-modi...


RE: I refuse to believe
By 67STANG on 10/3/2008 2:32:15 PM , Rating: 5
No offense, but I think I just threw up in my mouth. All you did was polish a turd.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 2:59:59 PM , Rating: 3
No offense taken. It just points out how the looks are very subjective.


RE: I refuse to believe
By voodooboy on 10/3/2008 3:30:33 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
It just points out how the looks are very subjective.


Amen to that, because (again, no offense) that looks quite...ummm...ugly.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 4:28:15 PM , Rating: 2
Chrome is just the icing on the cake. Of course, the cake is averaging 52 MPG.

How about show us your ride and tell us how many MPG you are getting?


RE: I refuse to believe
By Noya on 10/3/2008 5:12:54 PM , Rating: 5
While I think the Prius is a great car, yours is ugly.

What's with the wannabe VTEC stickers on the back doors that say Prius on them? Add the blacked out wheels (on horrid black body- needs to be white/grey/silver) that do nothing for aesthetics and that is the riciest looking Prius I've ever seen. Makes it look like a $10k Chevy Aveo.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 6:05:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What's with the wannabe VTEC stickers on the back doors that say Prius on them?

It says " Prius Gas Electric Hybrid ". Electric is silence because you never plug it in. It should read "Prius Gas Hybrid" instead.

This sticker is sold on the Priuschat shop with different shades: http://priuschat.com/shop/index.php/cPath/2
I am surprise you've never seen a Prius with that cool decal -- makes the car looks lower. When I bought it, gray wasn't available yet. I think gray would've been better on black tho.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 6:38:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How about show us your ride and tell us how many MPG you are getting?
How about you understand that different people have different needs and wants? I could bash you all day long for wasting your money on that car but why? It's your choice and you obviously like it. I can understand that and, more importantly, accept it. You need to understand that other people (not you but much like you), have those same traits.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 7:10:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I could bash you all day long for wasting your money on that car but why?

So, why did you bashed the Prius? You probably did not mean to because you had incorrect information of the Prius aerodynamic Cd when comparing it with the G37. Regarding the comment about wasting money... Prius saves me 30 mins everyday on my commute by allowing me to drive on the HOV lane. That my friend, is priceless.
quote:
You need to understand that other people (not you but much like you), have those same traits.

That is exactly why I asked to show their rides. I want to see what their taste in car because they obviously dislike mine. If they are ashame to tell their MPG, at least tell us their horsepower number, etc...


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/4/2008 9:53:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So, why did you bashed the Prius?
I guess reading eludes you. The OP wanted to know why cars need to be designed like the Prius in order to be slippery. I posted info that let him know that the Prius' design was not necessary to achieve a good aerodynamic shape. There was no bashing. I got my CD info from a few websites that were incorrect. I searched Toyota's website to confirm your info. I did not realize that something so easy to find would get messed up by these other sites.

The Prius' design is intentional. Actual owners DO desire a certain look for their hybrid cars. So Toyota made a distinctive design that was slippery. Smart thinking on their part as they sell (until recently) every one that they make.

As for saving money, a used car with good gas mileage would have saved you a LOT more as the price difference could have been applied to buying gas. HOV lane? Carpool dude. If you are so concerned, you should be doing it anyways, Prius or not.
quote:
That is exactly why I asked to show their rides. I want to see what their taste in car because they obviously dislike mine. If they are ashame to tell their MPG, at least tell us their horsepower number, etc...
It's not necessary for ANYONE to tell you what they drive. If they do, fine, if they don't, fine.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/5/2008 1:49:45 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I posted info that let him know that the Prius' design was not necessary to achieve a good aerodynamic shape. There was no bashing. I got my CD info from a few websites that were incorrect.

You were wrong, so your point was not valid. Garbage in, garbage out. We were actually in agreement. I provided a better example, Camry hybrid with 0.27 Cd. It looks more conventional and only 0.01 Cd away from Prius.

Guess what's the drawback with the Camry Hybrid? The rear seats don't fold down and the trunk is very small. The same happened to the Civic Hybrid. You need to understand the difference between Sedan and Hatchback. Hatchback provides more interior room, utility and better aerodynamic than a Sedan. That is the reason most Prius owners bought it over the Civic hybrid. You need to do research from the owners, not from the false marketing.

Pic of a twin size mattress in my Prius:
http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-main...

quote:
Actual owners DO desire a certain look for their hybrid cars.

It is not a secret that Prius doesn't have an appealing style. There are a lot going for Prius other than unique look. A lot of people would give credit to the brilliant engineering, awesome fuel economy, low emission and mid-size interior room. Some people like you just focus on the look and shove down the Prius owner's throat with above quote. I find it offensive and I strongly disagree with that comment.

quote:
a used car with good gas mileage would have saved you a LOT more as the price difference could have been applied to buying gas. HOV lane? Carpool dude.

Why don't you take public transportation, ride a used bicycle, or even better... walk. Dude, have you ever heard of compromise? Maybe you like to do compromises but I surely don't. With Prius, I can have the cake and eat it too.

quote:
you should be doing it anyways

What a Hypocrite!! It's not necessary for ME to tell you why I don't carpool.

I see the pattern here. You just like to talk about everything except YOU. We have not heard about what you drive, how/when the G35 will pay back the $10k premium.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Hare on 10/4/2008 4:43:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Chrome is just the icing on the cake. Of course, the cake is averaging 52 MPG. How about show us your ride and tell us how many MPG you are getting?

Audi with a 1.9Tdi engine. around 5L per 100km, so that equals about 45mpg. Not that bad and as a car you can't even compare it to a prius...


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/4/2008 12:13:49 PM , Rating: 2
Great to see you driving a Diesel. You must be from Europe because your car will not meet the dirtiest USA emission standard and can't be sold here.

Believe it or not... 1.9 TDI is slower than Prius. 0-60 11.2 vs 10.5 seconds. The official EU fuel consumption is 5.6L/100km. Using the same EU testing standard, Prius got 4.3L/100km. If you want to convert those numbers directly to US MPG, they are 42 MPG and 55 MPG. Those numbers do not reflect the new aggressive 2008 EPA testing. Since the 2008 EPA rated Prius as 46 MPG, your 1.9 TDI should get 35 MPG.

This new Insight-II will get around 2008 EPA 42 MPG and the acceleration should be the same as your A4 1.9TDI. It will cost a lot less and gas is less expensive than Diesel here. Insight-II should have the AT-PZEV extremely low emission as well.

I heard those expensive Diesel emission control equipments need regular maintenance. How often do you need to do it? Do you run on Bio Diesel? I don't think Audi allows this and may void the warranty if you choose to run on BD.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Hare on 10/4/2008 3:03:38 PM , Rating: 2
I replied just to give an example. Particle emissions are higher with diesel, but other than that... About performance. Both cars are slow. The build quality and ride comfort are different.

I have a 30 000km service interval (~19000 miles) and no, I don't use on biodiesel.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Lord 666 on 10/4/2008 10:43:30 PM , Rating: 2
I own a 2006 Jetta TDI and use it sometimes for the commute into NYC. The best MPG seen driving was 57mpg within a 30 minute ride on the GSP, but with my wife driving. After a prolonged break-in period of 50,000 miles, it now consistently gets 50mpg on the highway. The original sticker says 36/42, but usually gets 40mpg with mixed around town driving (verfied by gallons driven/used.) My particular car with the DSG tranmission has proven very reliable and has made trips to FL and consistently got 600 miles to one tank going 80mpg. The US 1.9 TDI needs an oil change every 5,000 miles, other than that the upkeep is normal.

After driving a Prius for one week during the summer on a business trip, there are pro's and con's vs the 2006 Jetta TDI.

Prius Pro's: In hot and extreme cold weather driving, the fuel economy of the Prius stays consistent along with A/C and heating effectiveness. In a head on, the Prius has a slight edge over the Jetta, but I'll take one for the team as the side impact is more important to me (see below). Great for driving short non-highway distances and city use.

Prius Con's: Safety is my primary concern with fuel economy second as my child is usually in the car. Depending on what model year Prius, it can be a death trap. In 2007, they added the side curtain airbag, but still do not offer rear side airbags. My Jetta has the 4x4 option (PITA to find with my other options) meaning it has rear side airbags. The side impact intrusion of a Prius vs. Jetta is dramatically different with the Jetta "winning" by a large margin when measured to the center line of the seats. Don't know about snow performance of the prius, but the Jetta is extremely capable in Northeast conditions. TDI is superior to Prius on long haul trips.

Verdict: If we didn't need a small SUV, would also pick up a prius to compliment the Jetta and replace the CRV and take advantage of the HoV. But until Honda or VW release their small SUVs with a diesel, going to keep the CR-V as the SUV. Want to test drive a Escape Hybrid for comparison one day when I am bored.

Test drove the new 2009 Jetta TDI and it gets somewhere in the 8 second 0-60s. However when compared to my 2006, it doesn't get quite the same fuel economy and at this time can't be ordered like ours with Package 2 (leather) and NAV. Here is the LA Times review http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highw...

PS - I like the way your Prius looks... except for the silver trim on the middle pillars. But instead of doing the trim, you should have just purchased the car with the built-in nav.


RE: I refuse to believe
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 10/6/2008 11:23:10 AM , Rating: 2
Or put lipstick on a pig....


RE: I refuse to believe
By Reclaimer77 on 10/3/2008 5:52:16 PM , Rating: 5
lmao nice !

Hey you left out the " TYPE-R " and " VTEC " badges !


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 6:22:02 PM , Rating: 2
Those are Honda old technology and has nothing to do with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. Maybe the owners of this new Insight can add those decals. I think they'll rather add "IMA" for Integrated Motor Assist which is Honda's hybrid technology.

I have one more decal on the fuel tank door. This was taken before I added the rear door triangle chrome piece.

http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-modi...


RE: I refuse to believe
By JonnyDough on 10/3/2008 11:39:10 PM , Rating: 3
But WAIT! Don't decals increase drag and add weight to the vehicle?!! There goes your MPG by 0.00001 mpg. No more bragging rights for you!


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 11:58:48 PM , Rating: 1
Well, I choose to brag and think it is a good trade off. :-D


RE: I refuse to believe
By Hoser McMoose on 10/3/2008 10:21:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I have 17" rims on my Prius and I think it is the best looking car on the road and has low aerodynamic 0.26 Cd.

Interesting bit of irony here, those 17" tyres and wheels probably increased the coefficient of drag on your Prius to 0.27 or 0.28 (maybe more?)

Wheels are one of the most inefficient parts of a vehicle in terms of aerodynamics. This is why you'll see many hybrids with what look almost like covers over their wheels (the extreme being the old Insight that DID have covers over the wheels).


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 11:19:09 PM , Rating: 2
Not as much as you think... After switching over to the 17" rims, I lost about 5 MPG. I am averaging 52 MPG with them and happy as long as I stay above 50 MPG and beat EPA.

This 17" rims/tire combo add about 4 lbs per corner. The tires are 20mm wider than stock and it is UHP summer sticky rubber. This definitely add extra rolling resistance.


RE: I refuse to believe
By matt0401 on 10/4/2008 2:05:33 AM , Rating: 2
Holy crap! That is the coolest Prius I have ever seen in my life! I love the black on black thing going on with the rims. The increase in wheel size makes a huge difference! Is the interior stock? I didn't know the Prius came with that wood trim as an option. :P


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/4/2008 12:20:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Is the interior stock? I didn't know the Prius came with that wood trim as an option.

Leather, Bluetooth, HomeLink, SmartKey, and more are available as an option but not the wood trim. I added wood trim by myself for $140. The LCD screen can change it's color to match the wood trim. Not surprising because Lexus comes with the same screen / user interface.


RE: I refuse to believe
By mihai on 10/4/2008 11:39:00 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, your Prius reminds me of a black Lamborghini i saw some time ago, but with emergency spare wheels.

That is, if you shrink the photos 50% in the vertical direction...


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 3:41:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That's nothing interesting because even the Camry gets 0.27 Cd.
.28 actually.

quote:
Have you ever been in the Prius rear seat?
yes. The G35 sedan had more room.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 4:34:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
.28 actually

My bad... Camry hybrid has 0.27 Cd.

quote:
The G35 sedan had more room

Definitely not rear leg room. The starting price of the G35 is $10k more than the Prius. When and how will G35 pay that $10k premium?


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 6:39:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When and how will G35 pay that $10k premium?
When and how will you pay YOUR $5k premium?


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 7:27:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When and how will you pay YOUR $5k premium?

What $5k premium? I bought my 06 Prius with backup camera, front and rear side curtain airbags, and Smart Key Entry for $18,000(with $3,150 tax credit). Name a car with those options and cost only $18,000 that you want to compare to.

Remember, Prius has the following standard features:

- 7" touch screen LCD
- Climate Control
- ABS
- Power window
- Heated sideview mirrors
- Ultra smooth and responsive eCVT that never need to shift gears (and no reverse gear)
- Highway passing power is comparable to 2.4L Camry
- Quiet, especially when the gas engine is not running

With saving on gas, Prius saves me even more money. Consumer Reports and IntelliChoice compared Prius to Corolla with less standard features and concluded that Prius will save money over the 5 years, even more if you keep it longer.

Now... When and how will G35 pay that $10k premium?


RE: I refuse to believe
By ebakke on 10/4/2008 11:31:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Name a car with those options and cost only $18,000 that you want to compare to.

Unfortunately I can't compete, because the government didn't sponsor my vehicle purchase. :-/


RE: I refuse to believe
By Jedi2155 on 10/6/2008 1:53:04 AM , Rating: 2
The government didn't sponsor his either.


RE: I refuse to believe
By ebakke on 10/6/2008 9:45:41 AM , Rating: 2
Would you have preferred the phrase "financially contribute to"? No matter what language you use, the point is that my car didn't come with a taxpayer-funded $3,150 check to me.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/6/2008 7:01:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
taxpayer-funded $3,150

The $3,150 I got back from the government is my tax dollar. Had I only paid $2,000 tax that year, I would only qualify to get back $2,000.


RE: I refuse to believe
By ebakke on 10/6/2008 7:53:53 PM , Rating: 2
Sadly, you have missed the point entirely.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Jedi2155 on 10/7/2008 4:04:23 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, I did...problem with skimming responses :-/. For some reason I thought he purchased it used as I normally don't see Priuses in that price range.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 6:56:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Definitely not rear leg room.
The G35's rear seats recline and my legs STILL had plenty of room. Plus the seats were very comfortable. The Prius felt like I was in the back seat of a Cobalt. Somewhat cramped and uncomfortable. Although comfort for me is quite different than for others. I'll accept things that most others would not.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 8:28:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Prius felt like I was in the back seat of a Cobalt. Somewhat cramped and uncomfortable.

I have to call a bluff on that one. Someone who has been in the Prius rear seats will not describe like that.

If you can not tell 4 inches difference in leg room, I am not saying anything anymore.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Fireshade on 10/6/2008 9:23:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you can not tell 4 inches difference in leg room, I am not saying anything anymore.

Perhaps Spuke doesn't want the 4 inches of extra legroom. Instead, he could be meaning that he needs more than 2 seats wide for himself ;)


RE: I refuse to believe
By randomly on 10/3/2008 12:26:14 PM , Rating: 4
You're forgetting weight. MPG is very dependent on vehicle weight, the G37 is nearly 1000 lbs heavier than the Prius. The constraint to reduce body weight AND achieve a low drag area and still retain the internal cabin space is what drives the shape in the Prius and Insite.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/08, Rating: -1
RE: I refuse to believe
By JediJeb on 10/3/2008 5:02:53 PM , Rating: 2
Weight may have nothing to do with aerodynamics but it has a lot to do with milage which is what the whole concept of the hybrids is about.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 3:53:02 PM , Rating: 1
Weight has very little to do with gas mileage. CD and frontal area play the most important roles here. The reason why trucks and SUV's get poor mileage is because of their terrible CD's and frontal areas not because they weight a lot. If the aero of trucks and SUV's could be improved, you would see mileage comparable to sedans and small cars.


RE: I refuse to believe
By theapparition on 10/3/2008 5:44:07 PM , Rating: 3
Your post needs to be corrected, because it's wrong.

Weight has an affect on gas milage. City driving milage is almost entirely driven by weight (all other factors equal), and has very little to do with Cd and rolling resistance.

Highway milage is much less dependant on weight, and if the highway EPA test didn't have variable speeds to simulate typical highway acceleration, then you'd be correct. But the test does include acceleration, where mass is a factor.
Still, for highway milage, weight is a very small portion.

But the CAFE regulations dictate combined fuel economy, which is a weighted average of the two (and city is weighted more), so for a vehicle's combined fuel economy, weight certainly plays a factor.


RE: I refuse to believe
By randomly on 10/4/2008 10:38:04 AM , Rating: 3
You are Wrong. Please do some research.

Weight has a great deal to do with mileage. Rolling resistance is directly proportional to vehicle weight. At city speeds braking losses and rolling resistance are the dominant energy loss factors related to motion, Aerodynamics comes in a distant 3rd.

Even at highway speeds where aerodynamic losses become dominant rolling resistance still takes up something like a 1/3 of the energy losses. If you reduce the Drag Area of the car by improved Cd and reduced frontal area the rolling resistance losses become an even larger percentage of the total losses.

Once again, vehicle weight has a great deal to do with MPG. To attain a low weight, low drag vehicle and retain the usuable internal volume.... you end up with the Prius/Insite shape as fairly optimal.


RE: I refuse to believe
By afkrotch on 10/6/2008 10:26:54 AM , Rating: 2
OMG! Did he just say that?

Are you going to tell me there would be very little difference in gas mileage if you took one Prius with just a driver and one Prius with a driver and 1000 lbs of gold in the back seats?

The more weight, the harder the engine is going to need to work to move the car. This means more fuel you'll be using.


RE: I refuse to believe
By masher2 (blog) on 10/7/2008 9:18:05 AM , Rating: 2
> "So, yes, a car can be pretty and still be aerodynamically sleek."

You're missing the third factor -- interior room. While that Infiniti has a sleek shape, it's a four-passenger car with a small rear seat. The Prius is a five-passenger auto and has about twice the room in the trunk.

The G37 also has a drag area (CD x frontal) of about 7.2, whereas the Prius runs 6.2.

There are several cars that beat the Prius in drag area...but they're either of similar shapes (the Insight) or have small interiors (Toyota MR2, Mitsu Eclipse, etc)


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 12:01:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This car is ugly. And so is the Toyota it copies.

You better get used to it because this is the shape of future cars. More and more cars will start to look like it since this shape is idea to give rear passenger a lot of room (head and leg) and aerodynamic at the same time.

Prius started it and now Insight II and Volt will follow this fundamental shape.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 3:55:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You better get used to it because this is the shape of future cars.
Don't have to. It's called choice. The only reason those cars are shaped that way is because the their customers want that look. Once this tech makes it to other segments, you'll see varying shapes like you do now.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 4:53:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The only reason those cars are shaped that way is because the their customers want that look.

LOL. Go tell that to those waiting for a Volt and see their response.

The real reason is for the functionality. #1 - It gives more interior room. #2 - The car slips through the air easier.

There are many different Kammback shapes but the ideal shape for the most interior room is Prius. In my opinion, Prius has the fuller look that you can cup. You know that sexy bouncy tear-drop curve and shape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback

quote:
Once this tech makes it to other segments, you'll see varying shapes like you do now.

You mean full hybrid tech? Absolutely! There are Ford, Toyota and Lexus full hybrids in all shape and forms that does not look like Prius. The most popular happens to be Prius because of the functionality of the hatchback utility. I can fold down the rear seats and fit a 52" HDTV. Pics:

http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-main...
http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/prius-main...


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 7:03:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
LOL. Go tell that to those waiting for a Volt and see their response.
For some reason, people expected to see the Volt concept car on the street when NO ONE told them that would be so. They disappointed themselves.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 7:07:17 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The most popular happens to be Prius because of the functionality of the hatchback utility.
The most popular happens to be the Prius because it has the hybrid look. Do some research dude. There has been research on this with actual owners.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 7:35:41 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The most popular happens to be the Prius because it has the hybrid look. Do some research dude. There has been research on this with actual owners.

Going by your logic, the original Insight had the most unique hybrid look with the rear wheel skirts. What happened to it? The original classic Prius looked like an Echo, just to point it out.

The "research" that you were referring to... came from CNW Research Marketing -- the same source that spewed out lies about Hummer being cleaner than Prius. Yea, I know... a lot of people fell for it.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Ringold on 10/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 4:59:15 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I'd go buy one of the following:

The nose in those cars are out of proportion. The noses are too long compare to the rest of the body. Why is the windshield sticking out from the level of the hood? Why do you prefer 2 doors with long nose better than others? The answer may be in the underlying assumptions from your childhood. Maybe... those TV advertisements really works!


RE: I refuse to believe
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 7:02:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Maybe... those TV advertisements really works!
I wasn't old enough to see the ads of the cars he mentioned and I find them very appealing to the eye. People buy cars based on a myriad of reasons, not just one. Why did you buy your car? I am sure most of us here had particular reasons for buying ours.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: I refuse to believe
By lagomorpha on 10/3/2008 10:08:49 PM , Rating: 2
"1) Technology. Prius simplified car mechanics. It has no starter, no alternator, no power steering fluid, no clutches, no shifting gears, no serpentine belt, etc.."

As someone with experience working on cars let me just say: NO. The complications from the added parts from the hybrid system outweigh the simplicity of anything it eliminates.

"4) Technology. Prius is very reliable and has low maintenance because of reason in #1. My brake pads will last 200k miles due to regen braking."

You'd think if this was such an important factor that non-hybrid cars would use dynamic braking (like regenerative but sends electricity to bank of resistors and a fan dissipates waste heat) to save brake pads. Trains have been using a system like this for decades.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 11:54:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The complications from the added parts from the hybrid system outweigh the simplicity of anything it eliminates.

You missed is the keyword, mechanic . Sure, the electronics add complexity but it lead to mechanical simplicity by reducing moving parts. Prius' eCVT that never needs to shift a gear consists of only 14 moving parts compare to 300+ moving parts of a non-hybrid car.

Electronics can be scaled down and reduce their price easily in this day and age. That's what Honda and Toyota have been working on their next gen. Before you know it, everything will be on one chip using 65nn tech. Just kidding.

quote:
You'd think if this was such an important factor that non-hybrid cars would use dynamic braking (like regenerative but sends electricity to bank of resistors and a fan dissipates waste heat)

Non-hybrid cars don't have the electric motor to generate electricity. Are you proposing installing 4 electric motors instead of the friction brakes? That wouldn't be cost effective.

Prius performs dynamic braking when the HV battery is FULL (80% SOC). The electricity is wasted by turning the gas engine without fuel. The heat generated is cooled by the radiator. The driver can also perform this at will by selecting B for situations when you know you will be driving down a long slope(mountain). Cool!


RE: I refuse to believe
By afkrotch on 10/6/2008 10:45:11 AM , Rating: 2
Regen brakes? Who cares. Manual transmission with compression braking.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/6/2008 7:04:06 PM , Rating: 2
Prius can do both. When the battery is full due to regen braking, it'll use the piston engine compression to perform the dynamic braking (train term).


RE: I refuse to believe
By spread on 10/4/2008 12:08:53 AM , Rating: 2
I hate to burst your bubble, but you probably used more petrol to make the car, than you save by driving it. The oil companies probably make more money from hybrids.

Where do you think the batteries come from? It takes alot of energy to produce heavy, metal batteries from rare materials mined deep, and then ship them halfway across the world.

I'm for hybrids. But they are not a silver bullet. Just a stepping stone to a real solution.


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/4/2008 12:58:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It takes alot of energy to produce heavy, metal batteries from rare materials mined deep, and then ship them halfway across the world.

The bubble of that myth has been busted so many times. Just google it.

Do you know how heavy the battery pack in Prius is? It is only 99 lbs. 15 gallons of gasoline weight that much! The battery in Prius is made with nickel. You probably have more nickel in your change(5 cent coins), AA rechargeable battries and household stainless steels than the nickel in the Prius battery pack.

This myth has been debunked so many times. Here is the discussion to a recent thread:
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-main-forum/53988...


RE: I refuse to believe
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/4/2008 12:33:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Prius never has made much financial sense

The G35 costs $10k more than Prius. Does that make financial sense? The facts are that premium features come with premium price. Why do you expect the extra features (compare to cheap econo boxes) in Prius to be free?

If you do the math, you can indeed have those extra features in Prius for free and pocket some more cash, due to the price of gas. Ever wonder why people are waiting on the list to buy it? This is why.


RE: I refuse to believe
By Ringold on 10/5/2008 1:54:07 AM , Rating: 2
Okay, don't take my word for it. In fact, I've never run the numbers on Prius ownership myself. But every respected group who has run the numbers has said it makes no financial sense for the average Joe to even consider a Prius. Maybe I don't read the Prius Times or something, but I've never seen the Prius recommended on the basis of money. You buy a Prius because, like Obama, and like a different type of car, a Viper for example, it makes you feel better in some way or another.

Just like the cars I pointed out; as a matter of opinion, I preferred them, partly because of style, as well as some other reasons. I also like your crude assumption that, because you've apparently been indoctrinated, the only way a person can come to like something is via indoctrination. Here's a hint. I actually didn't come to appreciate classic cars until I was in my 20s. As a matter of preference, perhaps something innate about being a male, I like the hard lines. I also like that they're mechanically simple enough I can do a lot of work on them as a novice, and learn quick. I'm a pilot as a hobby; first pilot in my family, nobody knew anything about it. I enjoy some archery from time to time; first person in the family to pick up a bow (okay, my uber-great grandfather may have wielded a longbow in some British army as a conscript 500 years ago, I don't know), and sure as hell don't recall any popular culture movies extolling the virtues of a bow and arrow. I also happen to be the first person in 3 generations to not be a Democrat, though I was raised as one. (Family isn't happy) Perhaps you can only value what your mommy and daddy seeded your brain with, but that doesn't mean everybody else works that way, James Taggart.


Don't forget
By pauldovi on 10/3/2008 9:14:04 AM , Rating: 2
Honda isn't copying the Prius here. Take a look at the FCX Clarity. This new car is clearly a derivative of the work that went into that (in terms of body work).

I expect this to be a steller car. At $19,000, even if the fuel efficiency is only in the low 40's it will be a great value car.

Honda is a little more down-to-Earth than GM. Instead of relying on government help (we are going to be "bailing out" GM here shortly) they have designed a car to sell.




RE: Don't forget
By Gzus666 on 10/3/2008 9:23:00 AM , Rating: 2
Good luck getting one for under $19,000. You have a hard time touching a Prius for under $30,000 with the dealer markup. I have a feeling Honda dealers will follow suit.


RE: Don't forget
By retrospooty on 10/3/2008 9:39:26 AM , Rating: 2
Honda has never allowed that kind of dealer mark up in the past. Not likely to now.


RE: Don't forget
By Desslok on 10/3/2008 10:05:21 AM , Rating: 2
HAHAHAH RIGHT!

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Go look at a Mugen SI.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisb27/2339952126/


RE: Don't forget
By retrospooty on 10/3/2008 10:35:18 AM , Rating: 2
A mugen is different story. Its a highly up-spec'd special model... and very rare at that.

Of course some dealers do markups, what I am saying is that Honda wont allow a standard model like this to be marked up an extra $10,000 . Its not going to happen. A few thousand maybe, but never 10k.


RE: Don't forget
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 11:04:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Of course some dealers do markups, what I am saying is that Honda wont allow a standard model like this to be marked up an extra $10,000
Honda, as well as other car makers, do NOT own their dealerships!! The Honda dealerships can do anything they please. If they see that people are willing to pay $10k markups on this car, they'll do it. I personally don't see a $10k markup, but a $3k to $5k markup would not be surprising in the least. All Honda can do is suggest that the dealerships keep their pricing at MSRP. That's it! That's all they can do.

BTW, when Honda brought back the Civic Si to the states after a short hiatus, there were $3k markups on those. The PRESENT Civic Si had a $3k markup at most all dealerships when introduced (I was interested in the car at the time).


RE: Don't forget
By Ratinator on 10/3/2008 12:48:46 PM , Rating: 2
Sure Honda doesn't own the dealership but they supply the franchise license. They are going to require that a certain number of units be sold overall. If a dealership is overpricing something and not meeting a sales quota, they will get their hands slapped by the company. There is some influence from Honda over a dealerships prices.


RE: Don't forget
By bldckstark on 10/3/2008 1:31:32 PM , Rating: 2
Honda Civic Del Sol's were marked up 5K when they were introduced and for around a year afterwards. Honda is a car manufacturer, not a public welfare agency. The dealers have marked up Honda's before and they will do it again.


RE: Don't forget
By CommodoreVic20 on 10/3/2008 4:54:50 PM , Rating: 2
When I purchased my Honda Element in 2006, I was the victim of dealer markup. In south Florida I researched practically every Honda dealership and at the time they all had markups.


RE: Don't forget
By strikeback03 on 10/3/2008 10:42:33 AM , Rating: 2
Must be a local thing. Around here (Rochester, NY) they are having a hard time moving the Mugen Civics at all (who really wants a $30k Civic?) so they are advertised under MSRP.


RE: Don't forget
By FITCamaro on 10/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: Don't forget
By Pirks on 10/3/2008 5:00:49 PM , Rating: 1
Slow? This car can easily go over your standard US highway speed limit, so who's slow again? This is not a car for illegal street racing, hence your calling names is inappropriate.


RE: Don't forget
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 6:23:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
This car can easily go over your standard US highway speed limit, so who's slow again?
My ATV can go over the posted US speed limit. That doesn't make it fast! LOL! There's more to a cars performance than just top speed.


RE: Don't forget
By Alexvrb on 10/3/2008 7:04:56 PM , Rating: 1
Dude, I'm not sure I can name a road-legal car (sold by a major manufacturer), which was sold in the US within the past 20 years, that can't exceed the "standard US highway speed limit". That includes things like a 3-cylinder Geo Metro or any Ford Aspire. Of course, its a lot harder to maintain >55 MPH in an Aspire, but that's because it will probably break down and end up in the crusher. The Metro was actually pretty reliable, and will probably beat an Aspire in the 1/4 mile too. :P


RE: Don't forget
By Pirks on 10/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: Don't forget
By synic on 10/3/2008 8:33:40 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, that's full of shit. I know plenty of people who take their cars to race tracks or protected amateur race events (often taking place on race tracks or closed air strips or such). Also, getting up to 70 MPH in a shitty car can mean you are still doing 40-45 MPH by the time the on-ramp disappears and you're sitting in front of someone who was doing 70 MPH and has to slam their brakes on because of your god awful car. Also, getting up to speed from a dead stop is very nice because it makes a car FUN to drive.

Yes, you can all drive shitty econoboxes but some people enjoy a car that handles very well and is peppy. You don't need to be an illegal street racer or have a 2 Fast 2 Furious car or whatever else.

In short, you're fucking stupid.


RE: Don't forget
By Pirks on 10/6/2008 3:19:06 PM , Rating: 1
Fuck you too


RE: Don't forget
By Noya on 10/3/2008 5:01:00 PM , Rating: 2
Because factory top line Honda's hold their value (Type-R anyone?) due to their limited numbers, similar to the way the newer Shelby badged Mustangs do.


RE: Don't forget
By Reclaimer77 on 10/4/2008 12:52:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Because factory top line Honda's hold their value (Type-R anyone?) due to their limited numbers


Jesus, you ain't kidding. You still can't find a good Integra Type-R for cheap these days.


RE: Don't forget
By Reclaimer77 on 10/3/2008 5:32:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Don't why you'd even spend $25,000 on such a slow car.


I suppose the Chevy Volt you have been raving about is going to be a real firebreather right ?

:P


RE: Don't forget
By FITCamaro on 10/3/2008 6:26:28 PM , Rating: 1
No. But an overpriced Civic with some appearance and suspension enhancements doesn't make it faster.


RE: Don't forget
By synic on 10/3/2008 8:35:14 PM , Rating: 1
Neither do LED headlamps and fancy looking rims *cough*Volt*cough*


RE: Don't forget
By FITCamaro on 10/4/2008 2:10:43 PM , Rating: 2
Where did I say the Volt was fast? I was talking about the Mugen Civic, not the Insight. So why are you comparing my comments to that to a Volt?


RE: Don't forget
By Alexvrb on 10/3/2008 6:58:46 PM , Rating: 2
The difference is that this $25K Civic is *supposed* to be a fast, high performance version. Comparing it to the volt is like comparing a Hummer to a Camaro.

When it comes down to it, it really is just a tuned-up Civic. It's high performance - for a completely stock Civic. If you buy it because you love Hondas, or because its a status thing among the tuner crowd, I can understand. But he's right, if performance is what you're after, this is not exactly a bargain.


RE: Don't forget
By synic on 10/3/2008 8:36:47 PM , Rating: 2
If you're in the $30K range you'd be better off buying a base WRX or a Grand Touring Mazdaspeed 3.


RE: Don't forget
By Reclaimer77 on 10/4/2008 12:57:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When it comes down to it, it really is just a tuned-up Civic.


I find this revelation to be informative and yet shocking at the same time.

/sarcasm off

Of course its just a tuned up Civic. Its not like they are trying to hide the fact. But short of doing something stupid like throwing a turbo on it or making it SUCK as an everyday driver, I'm not sure they can do much more to a Civic.


RE: Don't forget
By walk2k on 10/3/2008 1:18:43 PM , Rating: 2
The S2000 was also marked up pretty highly when it first came out.


RE: Don't forget
By Basilisk on 10/3/2008 10:15:35 AM , Rating: 2
"That kind of markup"? A bit vague, but... when I wanted to buy my first Honda Accord -- 1983 if I recall correctly -- all the NJ/PA dealers were marking them up several thousands of dollars. I made a call to mid-west dealerships near my parents, and at Xmas drove out with $14K in bank-bundles in my coat pockets, buying my Accord hatchback for -list- in Cape Girardeau, MO. That dealership tossed me the keys for a test drive -- didn't even burden me with a salesman! Great folks, mid-westerners!!

Those mid-Atlantic dealerships would charge whatever they could, however. And to top that off, when you buy in the East you have to sit through an hour of sales pitches for options, but that's another story....

[Note: cash was required for an -immediate- title transfer -- a bank draft would still have to clear, they said. Simple counting skills were NOT the dealerships strength, however, as they kept miss-counting the bundles of $20s; if you ever do this, make arrangements ahead of time so your bank will have bundles of $100's on hand!]


RE: Don't forget
By retrospooty on 10/3/2008 10:38:49 AM , Rating: 2
"That kind of markup" = what the poster above said. A $21k Prius selling for $30 is almost a 43% markup. Honda wont allow that on a std model.

I could see it on a rare A-spec Acura, or a rare Mugen updgraded model Honda.


RE: Don't forget
By michal1980 on 10/3/2008 11:06:43 AM , Rating: 2
honda has NO say what a dealer does.

while I haven't seen a 43% mark up, the new fits around here all come with a 2k 'sound proofing and stain guard' package.


RE: Don't forget
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 11:19:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Honda wont allow that on a std model.
Honda can't do anything about it. I've seen $3k markups on Prius' earlier this year. Don't know about now. There are waiting lists for them even though sales are WAY down. Only 10k Prius' sold last month.


RE: Don't forget
By Ender42 on 10/3/2008 9:39:30 AM , Rating: 2
Yes because the Billions GM has to pay in legacy health care and pension plans each year that companies like Toyota don't has nothing to do with it.


RE: Don't forget
By Desslok on 10/3/2008 10:06:31 AM , Rating: 3
WOW, a double negative.

Good going!


RE: Don't forget
By Chadder007 on 10/3/2008 10:30:35 AM , Rating: 2
Healthcare only accounts for $1500 per vehicle. Yet they do the Employee pricing sales for what....5,000 - 10,000 off?
It's the managements decisions that's the problem.


RE: Don't forget
By walk2k on 10/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: Don't forget
By FITCamaro on 10/3/2008 1:57:52 PM , Rating: 1
Don't know about where you live, but here at the local chevy dealership, they have hardly any SUVs or trucks. Chevy has already switched focus to smaller cars.

And why should the government mandate fuel economy standards? The cost of gas will do that for the market on its own. People bought big trucks and SUVs because they wanted them and gas was cheap. Now that its more expensive, people are buying smaller cars. Because the gas prices rose. Not because the government told the auto manufacturers to build more fuel efficient vehicles. All the new standards do is drive up the price of vehicles and eliminate the ability to build some. Large families are going to have a hard time finding a new vehicle they can afford in a few years because the mileage standards will be so freakin high. And if someone wants to drive a big SUV or truck anyway and they can afford it, they should be able to.

All these mileage standards are is an attempt to push an environmentalist agenda. And just as the auto industry's lobbyists fought to keep the standards where they were, the environmentalist's lobbyists fought to raise them. But I never hear anyone in the media complaining about that. Because they support it.


RE: Don't forget
By walk2k on 10/3/2008 4:51:42 PM , Rating: 3
Where I live the Ford and GM dealers are being forced to liquidate huge inventories of trucks and SUVs that are rotting on the lots, if not just go out of business entirely, as many are.

Where do you live? Apparently it's some fantasy Fairyland where the government doesn't regulate industries in terms of the safety and public health effects of their products. It must suck there.


RE: Don't forget
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 6:25:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apparently it's some fantasy Fairyland where the government doesn't regulate industries in terms of the safety and public health effects of their products.
What does CAFE have to do with safety and public health? You don't need a car to survive. Walking still works just fine. Try it sometime, it reminds you just how small you are (humility).


RE: Don't forget
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 3:29:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Continuing to build gas guzzling trucks and SUVs is their problem.
How is this a problem when that's what the customers wanted AND purchased by the millions? Now the customers are asking for other things and the car makers are responding in kind. That's how capitalism works. You give the customer what they ask for.


RE: Don't forget
By Solandri on 10/3/2008 4:13:27 PM , Rating: 1
It was a problem because the profit margin on the SUVs was so obscene they spent a lot of marketing dollars to drive and sustain the SUV trend. Effectively, they created a SUV-buying bubble, a bubble which has now burst stranding them with a lot of excess SUVs in inventory. (Course you could also argue that if SUVs had been more realistically priced, the lower price would've led to as many if not more of them being sold.)


RE: Don't forget
By Reclaimer77 on 10/3/2008 5:38:26 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It was a problem because the profit margin on the SUVs was so obscene they spent a lot of marketing dollars to drive and sustain the SUV trend. Effectively, they created a SUV-buying bubble, a bubble which has now burst stranding them with a lot of excess SUVs in inventory. (Course you could also argue that if SUVs had been more realistically priced, the lower price would've led to as many if not more of them being sold.)


You need to learn cause and effect.

I hate Gm and Ford personally, but your argument holds no merit. If there are " excessive SUV's " in inventory now its only because of the extremely sudden gas hike's we have seen over the past two years.

If people were left to make their own choices without this insane energy crisis we're being forced to endure by the Liberals, SUV's would STILL be selling like crazy.


RE: Don't forget
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 6:32:52 PM , Rating: 2
So if the profit margin was more reasonable then SUV's (and trucks too.....profit margins are the same), you would have no problem with SUV's or trucks? Regardless of cost, people bought them by the droves. And why do you exclude trucks? I've noticed that the SUV haters always ignore trucks. Trucks sold on an order of magnitude MORE than SUV's. Most SUV's never reached the top 10 in yearly sales in the US while trucks have dominated the top 2 in the last 30 friggin years!

Where's the truck hate? They're both built on the same platforms and use the same engines. Why not hate on those too?


RE: Don't forget
By Reclaimer77 on 10/3/2008 6:36:32 PM , Rating: 2
Where in the name of gods green earth did you read any " suv " hate in my post ??


RE: Don't forget
By Ringold on 10/3/2008 3:38:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Healthcare only accounts for $1500 per vehicle.


And how much per vehicle for significantly above market wage costs?

And how much per vehicle lost additionally due to the lower productivity inherent with using a grey-haired labor force doing unskilled work that 20-somethings and more automated facilities could do more efficiently?

And how much per vehicle lost with all other inane practices and costs forced on to the (formerly) Big Three?

And how much per vehicle lost due to decades of compounding the above problems?

And how much lost over the decades during drawn out strikes that otherwise would've been cash on hand to stave off disaster?

quote:
It's the managements decisions that's the problem.


Obviously, it's both management and the labor unions.


RE: Don't forget
By Doormat on 10/3/2008 10:54:45 AM , Rating: 2
The MPG being 42 vs 45 isn't that big of a deal...

12,000 miles @ 42MPG = 285 gallons
12,000 miles @ 45MPG = 266 gallons

So basically 2 fill-ups per year, even at $4/gal, that's only $76/yr. Makes up for that difference in price...


RE: Don't forget
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 12:26:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The MPG being 42 vs 45 isn't that big of a deal...

You have to remember this Insight II is smaller than Prius but it also seats 5 people... I guess a tight squeeze. Insight II is slower than Prius but faster than Civic Hybrid.

You may not get premium features like the touch screen controls, electric A/C, vacuum thermo bottle, and EV mode. Prius comes with solar sensitive electric A/C standard that adjust the output depending on the sun/shade. This electric A/C can also operates when the gas engine is turned off because it runs off the HV battery.

Vacuum thermo bottle stores heat when the car shuts down for a few days so the next cold start will be a warm start. It works the same as your Star Bucks coffee thermo mug. Instead of coffee, it stores 3 liter of engine coolant liquid. This technology eliminate the need to warm up the car and lowers emission.

Ultra smooth and silent electric only mode will not be available in Insight II. It is so cool to drive purely on the battery during traffic jams -- using the power captured when slowing down to the initial jam. This is is also useful if you need to move the car for short distance. Like... move for parking or pulling into the garage, or driving up the ramp to do oil change.


RE: Don't forget
By dubldwn on 10/3/2008 1:15:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
40 MPG city, 45 MPG highway (for comparison, a Prius gets 45/48)

However, contrary to what the article states, the Prius actually gets 48/45, not 45/48, so if you do a lot of city driving the difference will be greater.


RE: Don't forget
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 11:56:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Honda isn't copying the Prius here. Take a look at the FCX Clarity. This new car is clearly a derivative of the work that went into that (in terms of body work).

Honda FCX Clarity copied Prius because the original FCX looked nothing like Prius. FCX Clarity came out on Nov 2007 and looked very much like the current gen Prius which came out in 2003 as a 2004 model year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_FCX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius


MPG
By Spectator on 10/3/2008 10:50:08 AM , Rating: 2
As Im from UK. I dont really understand the US MPG stuff.

For Example. A Girly Car like 1.5 TD Renault Clio (86 BHP). can do 70+ MPG on a UK gallon. US gallons are massively smaller than UK gallon?

We had one from dealer while Her new car was delivered. Drove. 250Miles on a day out. Trip computer said 74.xx MPG. and it was Virginal. not even run in :( Renault rate MPG at 64 Combined. or 61 on the 106HP version.

Yet you all seem to be going mad for 30-40mpg. What am i missing here?

I just dont see the point of 1.4 Petrol "Hybrid" when a Straight 1.5 T-Diesel Engine can do better MPG.




RE: MPG
By awer26 on 10/3/2008 11:20:22 AM , Rating: 2
haha you said "Virginal".

BTW 1 UK Gallon = 1.2 US Gallons


RE: MPG
By rgsaunders on 10/3/2008 11:37:31 AM , Rating: 2
60MPG US = 72MPG UK, US gal is 3.8 litres, UK is 4.5 litres, a 20% difference. The problem is that almost none of the diesel models available in Europe are available in North America. Only a couple of diesel models of the VW and the mid line Mercedes are available, nothing in diesel from Renault, Jaguar, BMW, etc is available here. Unfortunately the marketing people seem to target only the young crowd, they seem to forget that the largest part of the buying public has grown up.


RE: MPG
By monomer on 10/3/2008 12:00:31 PM , Rating: 2
One problem is that you are comparing completely different classes of cars. The Prius has a 125 mm (4.9") longer wheelbase, and is a total 459 mm (18") longer. Unfortunately, the Renault site only states the Car's width including mirrors, so I can't really make a comparison there. The fact of the matter is that the Clio is a much smaller, lighter car than the Prius.

Secondly, hybreds' fuel advantages generally come in city driving, which is the main concern for most American commuters. The Clio's stated city mileage is 5.7 L/100 km (49.6 MPG UK, or 41.3 MPG US), versus 4.0 L/100 km (71 MPG UK, or 59 MPG US).

That's not to say that the Clio's numbers aren't very impresssive, as it kills pretty much all of the conventional small cars available in America (I think only the Smart or VW's TDIs come close).


RE: MPG
By monomer on 10/3/2008 12:01:59 PM , Rating: 2
I should note that all of the mileage numbers come from the respective manufacturers' websites, and as such should be taken with a grain of salt.


RE: MPG
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 12:50:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Secondly, hybreds' fuel advantages generally come in city driving

Absolutely wrong. No car on the market can touch Prius' highway MPG. Not even Smart. Not even Yaris, Fit, Aero, etc... Only two wheels motorcycle can beat Prius MPG on the highway. You all know that a huge compromise.


RE: MPG
By monomer on 10/3/2008 2:20:05 PM , Rating: 2
The numbers from Toyota show that the Prius gets better mileage in the city than it does on the highway (4.0 L/100 km City vs. 4.2 L/100 km Highway), though I imagine in real world driving its probably a wash.

As for nothing being able to touch the Prius on the Highway, the Clio mentioned by the OP is rated at 4.1 L/100 km Highway, while othere like the Smart (4.8 L/100 km) come close. The gap widens alot when you look at city mileage.


RE: MPG
By usbseawolf2000 on 10/3/2008 8:20:13 PM , Rating: 2
I was referring to what's available in the USA. It looks like Clio use 0.1 liter less per 100 km on the highway.

As you mentioned before, Clio is a much smaller and lighter car. It also does 0-60 in 15.2 seconds where Prius does it in 10.5 seconds. That is probably why Clio is not acceptable in the USA.

This new Insight should do 0-60 better than the Civic Hybrid (12.5 seconds).


RE: MPG
By walk2k on 10/3/2008 1:29:11 PM , Rating: 2
The Renault is also a rattletrap that will fall apart in 5 years.

This is a Honda which... well that's all you need to know really. You put gas in it, change the oil every 7500 miles, and it will run until they stop making gasoline.

Diesel is also quite un-popular in the US, for the smell and also because fuel is harder to find. It's also more expensive than gas at least right now, so that cuts into its economy quite a bit.


RE: MPG
By overzealot on 10/3/2008 12:49:03 PM , Rating: 2
Yet another reason why the metric system makes sense.


RE: MPG
By Hoser McMoose on 10/3/2008 10:34:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As Im from UK. I dont really understand the US MPG stuff.

Three differences:

1. UK gallons are 1.2 times larger than US gallons. So 70 miles to the UK gallon works out to 58 miles to the US gallon

2. The UK road test is MUCH less stringent than the U.S. test, the difference is about 20%.

Combined these first two points and we see that the Prius manages 65 miles to the UK gallon on the UK test while the exact same car is rated for 45 miles to the U.S. gallon on the U.S test. Quick conversion, to go from a U.K. rating to a U.S. rating, multiply by 0.7. So 70mpg in the UK is about equal to 49mpg in the U.S.

3. Virtually every diesel vehicle sold in Europe fails the more stringent North American air pollution test. Europe is still on the Euro IV emission stands for another year, while the U.S. switched to the North American Tier 2 standard, essentially identical to the Euro V standards, 2 years ago. Mercedes and (very recently) VW are the only companies producing Tier 2 / Euro V compliant diesel vehicles at the moment, so you don't hear much about diesel here.

Ohh, and I suppose as a 4th and 5th point, gas is cheaper in North America and (related) people buy higher horsepower cars. 106HP is pretty much the minimum of any vehicle sold here.


19k would be nice....
By oxymojoe on 10/3/2008 9:45:12 AM , Rating: 1
The Honda is a blatant copy of Toyota styling. Honda is absolutely notorious for copying Mercedes Benz so it makes sense, but I do realize it would be similar in shape anyway.

Not bashing at all, in fact I would go as far to say Honda is superior in overall quality to Toyota. And unfortunately like the other poster said, the dealers are going to try and rape everyone when this hits the market. I'm still really sketchy about 19k..it will displace the high end Civic and low end Accord quite a bit.




RE: 19k would be nice....
By therealnickdanger on 10/3/2008 10:00:12 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Honda is absolutely notorious for copying Mercedes Benz

Yeah, I'm always confusing Mercedes for Hondas. LOL


RE: 19k would be nice....
By omnicronx on 10/3/2008 10:57:44 AM , Rating: 2
Meet the Honda Insight, which was the first released hybrid in the U.S.. Although Toyota did release the Prius in Japan in 1997, it was not until 2001 that it was released in the US.. either way, many would argue that that it was Honda that first used that styling, not toyota.


RE: 19k would be nice....
By Tamale on 10/3/2008 11:33:38 AM , Rating: 2
they're not copying if they've simply found that this design is optimal for aerodynamics.

in fact, it makes sense that it turned out to look like the prius.. the prius is one of the most aerodynamic vehicles ever designed.


I like it
By judasmachine on 10/3/2008 9:11:52 AM , Rating: 2
I would consider buying one. I know it's a "Honda Prius" but for the price, hell yeah.




RE: I like it
By DallasTexas on 10/3/2008 9:38:36 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. The potential issue I see is that desirable options like leather seats, better audio, etc will be a pricey option. I just order a Prius (company fleet) and had t pony up nearly 1,800 for leather, navigation, etc. It was an all or nothing upgrade. This is likely what would be found here with Honda.


RE: I like it
By wannabemedontu on 10/3/2008 12:44:05 PM , Rating: 2
Considering most brands charge nearly 2k for navigation alone, that's a good deal to get leather too.


RE: I like it
By jskirwin on 10/3/2008 9:40:53 AM , Rating: 2
The speedometer and other gauges are behind the steering wheel, not in the middle of the dashboard. That's a big plus to me.


$19K in your dreams!!
By mcigna2002 on 10/3/2008 12:13:15 PM , Rating: 2
Honda dealerships are notorious for charging sticker price or higher. They can keep the car if it’s going to sell for over $19,000.




RE: $19K in your dreams!!
By Spuke on 10/3/2008 4:08:36 PM , Rating: 2
$19k is more than likely the base price. When a manufacturer releases preliminary pricing, it's usually the base price. Options, taxes and such are not figured in because those vary widely by geographical location and personal preference.


RE: $19K in your dreams!!
By Reclaimer77 on 10/3/2008 5:49:09 PM , Rating: 2
Smart FourTwo's are going for $35,000 ! You think 19k for a REAL car is crazy high ??


Plebian styling?!?
By KingConker on 10/3/2008 11:17:05 AM , Rating: 2
Yhe Civic Hybrid in the UK looks nothing like the standard European Diesel/Petrol models.

http://www.honda.co.uk/car/

In fact the standard Civic here looks very similar to the proposed new hybrid mentioned in this article.

Oh dear....




RE: Plebian styling?!?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 10/3/2008 11:45:20 AM , Rating: 2
where's a small hatchback?
By lucyfek on 10/3/2008 9:17:19 PM , Rating: 2
like a civic (or was it crx?). simple, small, efficient and sporty/good looking. and cheap. no BS needed to beat any of today's hi-tech hybrids.




Nothing wrong..
By bobny1 on 10/4/2008 9:07:01 AM , Rating: 2
with copying from each other. As long as they bring cheaper, more reliable and economic cars to the market. The real issue is pricing. It should at least be at level with regular production models by now. Otherwise, they are worthless. I think that because of the global economy issue the dealers are going to be a little more flexible...Btw.What's up with the dual speedometer?. I thought that was a retarded move on the civic and here again, we get it on the insight.




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