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Honda Civic Hybrid

Honda CR-Z hybrid concept
Honda admits that it took a wrong turn with the Civic Hybrid

When most people think of hybrid automobiles, Toyota's quirky Prius is usually the first vehicle to come to mind. The mid-size hatchback continues to dominate the hybrid sales charts and remains Toyota's third best-selling car behind the Camry and Corolla/Matrix.

Many attribute the Prius' success to its unorthodox shape, its remarkable fuel economy, relatively inexpensive price for a mid-sized vehicle and Toyota's perceived bulletproof reliability. Honda, on the other hand, has sat on the sidelines with its failed Insight 2-passenger hybrid and Accord Hybrid. The company's only other hybrid, the Civic Hybrid, has fallen far behind Toyota's shining star in sales.

Whereas the Toyota Prius has managed to rack up sales of 167,009 units though the first 11 months of 2007 -- 16,737 of which were sold in November 2007 -- Honda only managed to sell 29,352 Civic Hybrids through November 2007.

The Civic Hybrid's lackluster sales have not gone unnoticed by executives at Honda. Honda CEO admits that releasing a Civic Hybrid with little visual differentiation from more plebeian Civics was a mistake. “The real competition has just begun,” said Honda CEO Takeo Fukui. “Until now, it has been an image-based competition, not a business-based competition.”

There's also the issue of cost to consider with the Civic Hybrid. The more efficient Prius has a base MSRP of $20,950 while the smaller, less versatile Civic Hybrid has a base MSRP of $23,235.

Honda is looking to right its previous wrongs with two new hybrid models in the next few years. The company will introduce a production version of its CR-Z two-seater. The CR-Z uses an updated version of the Civic Hybrid's Integrated Motor Assist powertrain and a fuel-sipping 4-cylinder engine.

Honda will also introduce a new $22,000 five-seat Global Small Hybrid to directly compete with the Prius in 2009.

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Hybrid, haha
By Lonyo on 12/26/2007 3:10:28 PM , Rating: 2
BMW 3 series 2.0l diesel: 60mpg UK, 48mpg US
Toyota Prius: 46mpg

I know which I would rather have.




RE: Hybrid, haha
By mdogs444 on 12/26/07, Rating: 0
RE: Hybrid, haha
By Samus on 12/27/2007 12:20:50 AM , Rating: 1
I wouldn't call a BMW 3-series luxury. My mom's 2007 Camry has better interior materials and comfort, in my oppinion. I could never help but notice the engine noise and ride in a 3-series, and I'm sure a deisel spec wouldn't be any quieter.

As said, the BMW is also in a different price class. You might potentially get more MPG compared to some hybrids, but you'll pay more, thousands more. The resale value of a BMW 3-series is staggeringly low (compared to a 5 or 7 series) and the performance of even the Prius is sure to best the BMW Deisel in acceleration and braking due to the Prius's substantial weight advantage.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Spuke on 12/27/2007 12:42:24 AM , Rating: 2
Engine noise is a good thing to your typical BMW owner. It's part of the ownership experience. BMW's are primarily SPORTS sedans not luxury cars. Ultimate quiet is not a priority. Nor does BMW have any intention of ever making a Lexus or Cadillac interior for their cars. They're well known for making their interiors all function (all business no frills).

They used to be high on my list but IMO, they've lost some of their edginess. Not the styling, but the handling. Cars like the Infiniti G35/G37 are just as good now at a lower price point. Although, I'm a little partial to the 335i (turbo's do that to me).


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Vesuvius on 12/27/2007 1:26:54 AM , Rating: 3
BMW 320d will beat the ass out of a Prius in MPG, acceleration, top speed, towing capacity, braking, resale value, and life span. Prius will win in emissions, and cool factor...wait...scratch that last one.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By afkrotch on 12/27/2007 11:20:27 AM , Rating: 2
Don't forget, you'll pay more for the BMW and higher maintenance costs.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/29/2007 11:51:49 AM , Rating: 2
BMW covers almost all maintenance under warranty. (4yrs/50k miles) It covers oil changes, brakes, even a clutch if it has not been abused. You can even extend the maintenance to 100k for a reasonable amount.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By otispunkmeyer on 12/27/2007 12:20:30 PM , Rating: 3
someones clearly never set foot in a modern diesel

seriously, modern common rail injection diesel engines are almost works of art and they really do beat on these hybrids. our lexus IS220D is staggeringly good. 177Bhp and 400Nm of tourqe. petrol engines of that size get no where close in terms of torque and thats why that 2 ton thing sat on our drive will haul itself to 60 in 8.6 seconds. (long as u can change gear quick enough)

BMW's 2 liter diesel engines are much the same, as are nearly all the german diesels. their 3.0l ones are even more astonishing. the prius has a hybrid drive supposedly to save fuel, its not there to improve 0-60 times and as such it doesnt. lexus however, put hybrid drives in their cars for no other reason than to extract more performance.

you are right though 3 series are so plentiful today... 2nd hand ones can be had for a song. but i dont think theres any worry that the prius will out perform them. 316i or 318i maybe, but the diesels just have way more torque.

diesels are not the old, noisy, smelly, excruciatingly slow works of satan that they once were. Skoda Fabia VRS is prime example... it smacks the pants off its rival, the mini cooper, and under the bonnet lies a diesel

a 3 series isnt a luxury for the most part (the higher spec ones are) but compared to the naff materials used in the prius you'd be forgiven for thinking a 3 series was the ultimate luxury.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/27/2007 5:01:25 PM , Rating: 2
The Lexus brand is just Toyota's luxury line.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/29/2007 12:23:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I wouldn't call a BMW 3-series luxury. My mom's 2007 Camry has better interior materials and comfort, in my oppinion. I could never help but notice the engine noise and ride in a 3-series, and I'm sure a deisel spec wouldn't be any quieter.


Your mom's Camry? Have you ever been in a modern 3 series? The 3 series is a luxury sport sedan/coupe that is competing with the likes of a Lexus IS250/350 which is Toyota's luxury product. BMW certainly is going for sport first and luxury second though.

Your comment about the noise from a diesel motor also leads me to believe to have a rather limited exposure to the vehicles under discussion.

quote:
As said, the BMW is also in a different price class. You might potentially get more MPG compared to some hybrids, but you'll pay more, thousands more. The resale value of a BMW 3-series is staggeringly low (compared to a 5 or 7 series) and the performance of even the Prius is sure to best the BMW Deisel in acceleration and braking due to the Prius's substantial weight advantage.


You have it wrong again. The 3 series holds its value rather well compared to the 7 series. The 5 falls somewhere in between. (This is true with most high end luxury full-size sedans such as the Mercedes S-class too.) The reason is when someone can afford an $80k car, if the difference between used and new were only say $5-10k, most just buy a new car configured as they want. $5-10k for a car that was originally half that price is huge difference in affordability. If you want to see for yourself talk to someone who deals with higher end used cars for a living or browse Autotrader and compare prices on models a few years old versus the prices when they were new.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Spuke on 12/31/2007 11:17:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you want to see for yourself talk to someone who deals with higher end used cars
This is VERY true. Look at the used car prices for a low mileage Maserati Coupe. Shocking to say the least.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Combatcolin on 12/27/2007 12:43:12 PM , Rating: 2
Disagree.

Carbon footprint is becoming more important every year, even if you don't care - your government has vested intrest in promoting greener cars.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By robinthakur on 1/2/2008 5:31:07 AM , Rating: 2
Yes taxing us all an unholy amount on petrol/cars/road tax etc. will save the environment. The most important thing is that all the extra money which the UK government take is spent on the environment. This is clearly happening and I am more than happy with the bankrupting costs imposed by my government, as without it the earth would just cease to survive and our quality of life would be nothing. They clearly would prefer us all to use dangerously unsafe, filthy public transport filled with unsavoury characters and a distinct lack of the luxury I'm accustomed to. Oh and the cost of said public transport went up a whopping 9% today in the UK. What great value. The earth must be nearly fixed by now with all that investment going on, presumably as they pour the cash into all the active volcanoes to try and stop them errupting and spewing CO2. Wait, what's that you say? Government hording the money/not spending it where intended? Trying to stifle laughing in your gullible faces? Surely not...


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/26/2007 3:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, many people would love to have a BMW, but you also have to look at the cost.

The Prius is roughly $21k. A US-spec 3-Series starts at $32.4k. Add a diesel engine, and you'd be looking at at least another grand or two.

It's a pretty lame comparison -- at least if we're talking about the US market. The Prius' closest diesel competitor in the U.S. would likely be a VW Rabbit Diesel (whenever VW starts selling them again).


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Hulk on 12/26/2007 4:07:24 PM , Rating: 2
Not a lame comparision at all.

The point is that an "old technology" diesel can get better gas mileage in a similar size car than hybrid technology.

And keep in mind that a Prius is a pile of steaming dog crap in comparision to a BMW 3 series in terms of build quality, handling, performance, looks, and just about every car metric you can think of.

The point is that hybrid technology is just the newest thing for the wackos to scream about. Now it's hybrid cars and global warming. 30 years ago it was the coming ice age and the fact that we'll be out of oil in 10 years.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Tsuwamono on 12/26/2007 5:28:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The point is that an "old technology" diesel can get better gas mileage in a similar size car than hybrid technology.


Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane. So you may be saving a few cents at the pumps but your not really helping anything.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By loonyjuice on 12/26/2007 7:16:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane.


... but, diesel burns more efficiently and has a higher energy-per-litre content so you actually get LESS pollution per mile.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By MadMaster on 12/26/2007 7:52:52 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
quote:
Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane.

... but, diesel burns more efficiently and has a higher energy-per-litre content so you actually get LESS pollution per mile.


Yes, diesel has a higher energy-per-liter content, that's because it has more carbon/hydrogen per liter. It has about 15% more energy per liter...

However, when burned, it puts out 15% more CO2. Each gallon of diesel puts out more CO2 than each gallon of gasoline when burned.

On the flip side, diesel engines are 20-40% more efficient, hence the higher mpg. So they do put out a little bit less CO2. However, since a prius is much more efficient, the prius is better for the environment than the BMW.

Btw, when you buy a BMW, they are not much higher quality than a prius. That's marketing and public image (AKA BS). In order to make a objective assessment, you'd need statistical data. Of course, car companies do not publish the statistical data. The truth is, the quality of cars today is pretty damn close (comparing a civic to a focus to a prius etc). But with a BMW you do get better customer service...

As a side note, when Ford, GM, and Chrysler lost all their market share to Japanese automakers because of quality, they improved quality dramatically. Today, their cars are much better than they were in the 70s and 80s and early 90s.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Spuke on 12/26/2007 8:13:19 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Btw, when you buy a BMW, they are not much higher quality than a prius. That's marketing and public image (AKA BS). In order to make a objective assessment, you'd need statistical data.
You say that you need to statistical data in order to make a objective assessment so why did you make a SUBJECTIVE assessment of BMW's quality compared to the Toyota? Without statistical data, you pulled just as much crap out of your a$$ as the previous poster.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By mcnabney on 12/26/2007 11:48:14 PM , Rating: 3
Go to Consumer Reports.

When you look at BMW models you will note lots of BLACK blobs and half black blobs for reliability. They also rate below average in general. Switch to Toyota and they are all red blobs indicating reliability that leads all others. Even Ford and GM makes cars that are more reliable than BMW. That is objective. On the subjective side the only two BMW owners I know have their cars in the shop to fix something at least once a year. My buddies M5 was in for some issue every few months. Looks and performs great, but they just fall apart....


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Souka on 12/26/2007 11:57:30 PM , Rating: 2
zactly...

far as reliability on all parts of a car... Toyota and Honda dominate, Volks/BMW middle to lower end, and american big 3...BOTTOM of reliability.

Reliability data isn't people saying its better, its based on number of reported problems per given # of cars.... data...


RE: Hybrid, haha
By theapparition on 12/28/2007 12:35:42 PM , Rating: 2
Check your facts.
Toyota is #1, followed by GM at #2. The bottom is occupied by euopean models (Mercedes, BMW, etc.)


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/29/2007 1:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
Consumer Reports has to be one of the worst publications. Their articles never come across as expertly written. Nobody can be an expert on everything. If I want an independent opinion on cars, I read car magazines. If I want independent advice on a new TV, I read an AV magazine.

I would like to see the problems broken down so you could see how many problems on the BMWs and Mercedes are things that most Toyotas and Hondas don't even have. For example, how many BMW issues are soccer moms complaining that their park distance sensors aren't working on their X5 versus something that every car has that can break like air conditioning.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Vesuvius on 12/27/2007 1:45:51 AM , Rating: 2
New clean diesel is cleaner in CO2, CO and hydrocarbons. Diesel is equal to gas in nitrous oxides. Diesel is worse in particulates.

CO2 causes global warming

CO is poisonous

Hydrocarbons which are carcinogens

Nitrous Oxides cause smog

Particulates not considered good but have no definite proven health issues.

I'm for Diesel, or Diesel/hybrid....but gasoline even gasoline/hybrid is not the way to go.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Durrr on 12/27/2007 7:56:32 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, diesel has a higher energy-per-liter content, that's because it has more carbon/hydrogen per liter. It has about 15% more energy per liter...

However, when burned, it puts out 15% more CO2. Each gallon of diesel puts out more CO2 than each gallon of gasoline when burned.

On the flip side, diesel engines are 20-40% more efficient, hence the higher mpg. So they do put out a little bit less CO2. However, since a prius is much more efficient, the prius is better for the environment than the BMW.


http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=1...

read that and read more about the plant that makes the hybrid batteries.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/28/2007 4:30:36 PM , Rating: 2
That report was debunked by Pacific Institute
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science...

For example, the (CNW) report states: “A Joule is one watt per second of energy consumption,” and “A 60 watt light bulb uses 60 Joules of energy.” These conversions are incorrect: a Joule is one watt-second of energy; and a 60-watt bulb uses 60 Joules per second"

CNW failed physics 101.

Try again.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By MadMaster on 12/28/2007 7:57:13 PM , Rating: 2
From http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=1...

quote:
The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles -- the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles.

That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use almost 50 percent less combined energy doing it.


PLEASE!

Just expect a hummer to last 3 times longer than a hybrid? BULL$#@%! NiMH batteries last A LONG time with the right battery charging and battery monitoring (which I'm sure Toyota implemented). Ever heard of the electric Toyota rav4? It used NiMH batteries and went 200k miles+ easy and still going strong (search it, there was a recent article about it somewhere).

A taxi prius has already made it 300k miles easy. Considering the prius is not that old (and not many people have driven them 300k miles), that's pretty good.

Now consider the 15mpg of the hummer. Over 100k miles thats 6666 gallons of gas which makes 126666 pounds of CO2 release. Over 100k, a prius burns 2222 gallons of gas and puts out 42222 pounds of CO2. You can't tell me that each prius requires 4444 more gallons of gas to produce than a hummer. (Consider all the extra aluminum, bigger engine, and the fact that the hummer weighs twice as much as the Prius because of bigger wheels, bigger breaks, etc). Yeah, the battery factory probably isn't the cleanest of factories, but neither is ANY factory in the world. Also, lets consider a Hummer requires a lot more factory to produce than a Prius (One of the reasons a Hummer costs 10k more).

Oh and the ncpa.org website has headquarters in Dallas and Washington. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot like a lobbying firm and a little one sided.

Oh and they talk about nickel being so bad. Mining EVERYTHING from gold to aluminum causes environmental damage. The Hummer uses a lot more aluminum than the prius (just look at the weight). Aluminum has a similar production process as nickel, and causes similar environmental effects.

The bottom line, a Prius is the better for the environment and the ncpa.org website is BS.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/29/2007 1:57:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
PLEASE!

Just expect a hummer to last 3 times longer than a hybrid? BULL$#@%! NiMH batteries last A LONG time with the right battery charging and battery monitoring (which I'm sure Toyota implemented). Ever heard of the electric Toyota rav4? It used NiMH batteries and went 200k miles+ easy and still going strong (search it, there was a recent article about it somewhere).

A taxi prius has already made it 300k miles easy. Considering the prius is not that old (and not many people have driven them 300k miles), that's pretty good.

Now consider the 15mpg of the hummer. Over 100k miles thats 6666 gallons of gas which makes 126666 pounds of CO2 release. Over 100k, a prius burns 2222 gallons of gas and puts out 42222 pounds of CO2. You can't tell me that each prius requires 4444 more gallons of gas to produce than a hummer. (Consider all the extra aluminum, bigger engine, and the fact that the hummer weighs twice as much as the Prius because of bigger wheels, bigger breaks, etc). Yeah, the battery factory probably isn't the cleanest of factories, but neither is ANY factory in the world. Also, lets consider a Hummer requires a lot more factory to produce than a Prius (One of the reasons a Hummer costs 10k more).

Oh and the ncpa.org website has headquarters in Dallas and Washington. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot like a lobbying firm and a little one sided.

Oh and they talk about nickel being so bad. Mining EVERYTHING from gold to aluminum causes environmental damage. The Hummer uses a lot more aluminum than the prius (just look at the weight). Aluminum has a similar production process as nickel, and causes similar environmental effects.

The bottom line, a Prius is the better for the environment and the ncpa.org website is BS.


Now that you have provided an opinion, do you have any sources to backup it up other than what marketing has convinced you about the Prius and hybrids in general. I'm not going to defend that a Hummer is more environmentally friendly than a Prius, but let's now get ahead of ourselves here. Hybrids bring their own set of environmental problems to the table while not reducing fuel consumption much.

Btw, NiMH or even LiIon batteries for that matter do not hold the same charge forever. The basic chemistry of the battery dictates that performance will decline over time. (If you've ever owned a laptop, cell phone, iPod, etc, you know what I'm referring to.) While the Prius with 300k miles on it probably still ran; it does have a gasoline motor to run on. The reason the lifespan of a Prius is 100k miles is probably because after 100k, the batteries and electric motor hinder the efficiency rather than help. A Prius with 300k or 100k for that matter is probably less efficient than a regular Civic with the same mileage. I suppose you could always have the batteries replaced in the Prius at 100k for a mere $12k. (I think DT had an article about that awhile back.) Problem is, with the production and disposal of a new set of batteries, we're back to whether it is truly better than the Hummer for the environment.

While a Hummer may not be better for the environment than a Prius, a regular Civic or a diesel Jetta almost certainly is.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/29/2007 7:04:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A Prius with 300k or 100k for that matter is probably less efficient than a regular Civic with the same mileage

This is BS. You just have provided an opinion. Please supply the required stats.

You are forgetting that Prius engine runs Atkinson cycle NOT Otto cycle. Please review Atkinson cycle vs Otto cycle in regards to efficiency.

quote:

Btw, NiMH or even LiIon batteries for that matter do not hold the same charge forever. The basic chemistry of the battery dictates that performance will decline over time. (If you've ever owned a laptop, cell phone, iPod, etc, you know what I'm referring to.)

The problem with these small devices they don’t have the same battery management software as Toyota’s HSD.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/30/2007 6:20:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is BS. You just have provided an opinion. Please supply the required stats.

You are forgetting that Prius engine runs Atkinson cycle NOT Otto cycle. Please review Atkinson cycle vs Otto cycle in regards to efficiency.


See my reply to your next comment on sources.

Atkinson vs. Otto is all well and good. How about the fact that Civic is as much as 300lb lighter than the Prius? That is more than a 10% difference in weight. That means if the car is running just on the ICE, the Civic has less mechanical work to perform. Not to mention, the Prius' ICE has only 76bhp vs the Civic's 140. That means the Civic needs less throttle to perform the same mechanical work.

quote:
The problem with these small devices they don’t have the same battery management software as Toyota’s HSD.


Battery management is great under lab conditions. Although most rechargeable battery users don't operate in a lab. Real world usage of any battery will differ from lab results. Again, see my reply to your next post.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 9:44:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How about the fact that Civic is as much as 300lb lighter than the Prius?

Complete BS. Civic is compact size and Prius is mid-size.

Even if you want to cross compare different class, please check the weight of 2008 Civic auto vs. 2008 Prius e-CVT with similar safety standard.

quote:
Battery management is great under lab conditions. Although most rechargeable battery users don't operate in a lab. Real world usage of any battery will differ from lab results.

See my previous post. Prius BMS and HV battery packs has been proven to be reliable for 10 years in the real-world. As we are on the 10th year, Prius just won the most reliable, most fuel efficient and most satiisfied car.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 9:53:33 PM , Rating: 2
Did you know that Prius' HV battery is 3x the capacity than necessary? Toyota only use about 1/3 of the pack to prolong it's life.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 7:45:56 PM , Rating: 2
You are forgetting, that Prius 2.x's ICE (57kW(76hp), 115 Nm) provides electrical energy to the electric motor and the electric motor in turn provides the 400Nm torque.

Judging from your comments on HP and power, you need to review torque. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque

The EV battery only provide 21 kW (28 hp) for 50KW electric motor. Most of the electrical power for electric motors is provided by the ICE.

From Toyota’s repair course work, Prius’s ICE switches between Atkinson cycle and Miller cycle (VVT-I, Variable Valve Timings with Intelligence) to maximise the efficiency across the RPM range. This is not your normal Yaris Otto cycle ICE.

Also, factor in the efficiency of E-CVT vs normal transmission. CVT will keep the ICE at max efficiency (targets ICE's RPM sweet spot) longer than normal transmissions.

The HSD combines both serial and parallel hybrid modes.

Prius 1.x with aircon (which forces the ICE be turned on all the time) and degraded EV battery still yields 41 MPG(real world).

A 2008 Civic Coupe (a 2-door), 5-passenger family coupe
achieves (EPA) 25 MPG in the city and (EPA) 36 MPG on the highway.

Before commenting, please review Toyota's "Hybrid Synergy Drive"'s operation modes.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 8:30:49 PM , Rating: 2
Now a report on Prius 2004 (aka Prius 2.0 hint: Model number NHW 20 ).

I defined Prius 1.x as follows
NHW11 (Prius 1.1)
NHW10 (Prius 1.0)

Refer to
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/...

Prius 2.0 @160,000 miles averaged to 44.2 MPG. Note the flatline.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/29/2007 7:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
What you said is BS.

Refer
http://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents...

A degraded EV battery after 160K miles, Prius 1.x’s still yields 51 MPG (without aircon). Unlike Prius 1.x, the Prius 2.0 has an electric compressor (aircon) and it's by EV battery.

Refer to
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-battery-...
For Prius 2.0, Toyota have lab data showing the Prius battery can do 180,000 miles (290,000km) of normal driving with absolutely no degradation of the battery’s performance.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/30/2007 6:42:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What you said is BS.

Refer
http://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents...

A degraded EV battery after 160K miles, Prius 1.x’s still yields 51 MPG (without aircon). Unlike Prius 1.x, the Prius 2.0 has an electric compressor (aircon) and it's by EV battery.


Thank you for providing a source for me. If you look at Table 2 on page 13 of your own link, you will see that a Prius with 160k went from 70mpg with AC to 40mpg while the Civic actually increased by 1mpg! (I know you will feel the need to point out the w/o AC side, but let's be realistic here, the number of people willing to sacrifice comfort for economy is minuscule making that data significantly less relevant.) The Prius had a 29% decline in fuel economy and the Civic had a roughly 3% increase in economy. That brought the Civic within <4mpg of the Prius. While my conclusion that the Civic would be more efficient at 100k was wrong, based on the links you provide, it is reasonable to assume that by 300k, the Civic will be ahead of the Prius. (So much for Prius Taxis being better.)

quote:
Refer to
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-battery-...
For Prius 2.0, Toyota have lab data showing the Prius battery can do 180,000 miles (290,000km) of normal driving with absolutely no degradation of the battery’s performance.


Ironically, your links contradict each other. The second link is from a "green" car dealership in New Zealand which makes it basically irrelevant but we'll consider it anyway. They are claiming that Toyota has shown lab results that there is no degradation up to 180k miles. Wow! Wait a second though; didn't your other article just show a 29% reduction after just 160k. So which is it, the manufactures claim that it is perfect or a study from an "independent" organization whose own motives have yet to be discussed. How did Toyota come to this conclusion? Did they perform a computer simulation or put 180k on a Prius as fast as possible? (Neither of which is real world.) The average driver puts 12-15k on a car per year. (That's why leases are 12-15k per year.) Therefore Toyota cannot even provide real world results at that mileage since the Prius has not been out long enough. Based on that average, it would take 12-15 years to put that mileage on a vehicle. Battery chemistry is also about age, not just usage.

If you would look at the facts objectively and use a little simple logic and reasoning, you would realize that hybrids in their current form are not the holy grail of environmental friendliness that they are made out to be.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 9:50:50 PM , Rating: 2
Just read what real owners are saying about their experience after 100k+ (some over 150k) miles.
http://priuschat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29373...

Even if you are not convience the battery pack will not that long, consider this. Prius hybrid related components (including the HV battery) have 8 years / 100k miles warranty. In the CARB states, it is 10 years / 150k miles warranty.

Like the old saying..... you can only lead the horse to the water. You can not make it drink.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 8:08:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

Thank you for providing a source for me. If you look at Table 2 on page 13 of your own link, you will see that a Prius with 160k went from 70mpg with AC to 40mpg while the Civic actually increased by 1mpg

Prius 2.x (NHW20)can operate AC without ICE being turned on. Prius 2.x has an electric compressor powered from HSD inverter (from EV battery) for AC.

Prius 1.x must turn on ICE for AC. You didn't factor in this difference.

The Honda Civic being use in the report was Honda's Civic Hybrid i.e. not a regular petrol Civic. Civic Hybrid is fitted with 1.3L ICE.

You need review Civic Hybrid vs Civic regular.

2008 Honda Civic Coupe (regular petrol version)
achieves 25-mpg in the city and 36-mpg on the highway.

The recent Prius Taxis article posted in DT was Prius 2.0.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 8:16:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ironically, your links contradict each other. The second link is from a "green" car dealership in New Zealand which makes it basically irrelevant but we'll consider it anyway. They are claiming that Toyota has shown lab results that there is no degradation up to 180k miles

Ermmm Prius 2.0 vs Prius 1.x.

Note "Toyota Prius II Battery Pack"...

Can't you read?


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 8:41:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
.
While my conclusion that the Civic would be more efficient at 100k was wrong, based on the links you provide, it is reasonable to assume that by 300k, the Civic will be ahead of the Prius. (So much for Prius Taxis being better.)

Regular Civic doesn't equal Civic Hybrid. As for Prius being better than Civic Hybrid, refer to cabin size, cargo space and 0-100Km/h acceleration.

Refer to
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/...
for Prius 2.0 (Prius 2004 model) report. Note the flatline to 44.2 MPG.

Your assumptions are incorrect i.e. the decline is NOT linear.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 9:03:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

(I know you will feel the need to point out the w/o AC side, but let's be realistic here, the number of people willing to sacrifice comfort for economy is minuscule making that data significantly less relevant

Unlike Prius 1.x, Prius 2.0 doesn't ICE for AC to operate.

quote:

Wow! Wait a second though; didn't your other article just show a 29% reduction after just 160k

Erm, 29% reduction was for Prius 1.x. The other article was for Prius 2.0.

quote:

vehicle. Battery chemistry is also about age, not just usage.

Battery’s effectiveness is about molecular position restoration during a recharge.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 9:42:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you would look at the facts objectively and use a little simple logic and reasoning

Statistical facts for Prius 2.0. Refer to
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/...
Notice the flatline to 44.2 MPG.

Your little simple logic and reasoning are hardly objective.

Try again.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 9:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
While the Prius with 300k miles on it probably still ran; it does have a gasoline motor to run on. The reason the lifespan of a Prius is 100k miles is probably because after 100k, the batteries and electric motor hinder the efficiency rather than help. A Prius with 300k or 100k for that matter is probably less efficient than a regular Civic with the same mileage. I suppose you could always have the batteries replaced in the Prius at 100k for a mere $12k.


200k+ miles taxi driver (Andrew Grant) only reported the wear out components are only the non-hybrid stuffs.
http://www.hybridcars.com/high-road/how-long-do-hy...

04+ Prius has rectangular modules. It was tested for about 280km and the internal resistence was almost as good as new.
http://mysite.verizon.net/priusdk/newbattery.pdf

Seriously, do you expect an automatic transmission (specifically Hummer's) to last 300k miles?

quote:
While a Hummer may not be better for the environment than a Prius, a regular Civic or a diesel Jetta almost certainly is.

Civic is smaller than Prius. If you compare Prius to a comparable gas-only car, Prius still come out ahead. Jetta should be worse since it's emissions are so high.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/tewedding/HSD/Prius_Vs_Gas_...


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 10:01:55 PM , Rating: 2
Do you even know the size and weight of the HV battery pack?

You can get a brand new HV battery pack (99 lbs) for $2,150 including shipping.

Toyota also has a $200 bounty fee to get the battery back to recycle.

Steel use nickel too. There are more steel used in Hummer than Prius.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 9:25:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
. A Prius with 300k or 100k for that matter is probably less efficient than a regular Civic with the same mileage

BS.

In terms of MPG, a regular Civic has 1.8L Otto cycle ICE is greater than Prius’s 1.5L Atkinson cycle ICE.

2008 Honda Civic 4 cyl, 1.8L, Manual 5-spd, Regular
26 city (US EPA)
34 hwy (US EPA)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year...

Even if Prius 1.x having it's 1.5L ICE on all the time (with AC) and a degraded EV battery, 40MPG still beats a regular Honda Civic 1.8L ICE.

2008 Honda Civic Hybrid
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year... Hybrid&hiddenField=Findacar

40 City (US EPA)
42 Combined (US EPA)
45 Hwy (US EPA)

Honda Civic Hybrid is fitted with 1.3L ICE.

When interpreting the gov report, do not apply Honda Civic Hybrid's numbers to Honda Civic Regular.

You are wrong in both counts.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rushfan2006 on 12/31/2007 12:05:18 PM , Rating: 2
I think he was trying to make the same point I was talking about elsewhere in this thread --

the point is saving money right? everything else aside the bottom line is we want better fuel economy to save us money and I guess the side affect is help the planet out too.

If you front SUBSTANTIALLY more to get the BMW 3 series -- that may prove your point for which is the better choice is style or build quality/whatever -- but it is by far the less logical choice for saving money. Big whoop he BMW3 diesel is stated to get 2 mpg better than a Prius. The Prius guy is still saving 11k or more right off the bat because he spent LESS on the vehicle itself.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/31/2007 12:34:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
BMW3 diesel is stated to get 2 mpg better than a Prius. The Prius guy is still saving 11k or more right off the bat because he spent LESS on the vehicle itself.

The problem is that Prius still get 15.7 MPG more than BMW 318d Diesel if you use the same UK testing procedures. See encia's post: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10147...


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Heinrich on 12/26/2007 8:47:44 PM , Rating: 2
The Volkswagen Clean Diesel Jetta is coming soon.

I'll take one of those in the 20K range - will be a far better car than a Prius or a Civic.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By mcnabney on 12/26/07, Rating: 0
RE: Hybrid, haha
By Spuke on 12/27/2007 12:29:01 AM , Rating: 5
We have ULSD in the US now.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By mydogfarted on 12/27/2007 2:41:22 PM , Rating: 2
In '08-'09 The U.S. government is requiring that all diesel be ULS diesel.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Methusela on 12/29/2007 3:45:49 PM , Rating: 2
Don't forget about biodiesel ( http://nbb.org ), which is a legitimate and cleaner fuel than even ULSD. Also, while it has lower energy density than regular petrodiesel, it actually combusts more completely, thereby releasing slightly more power per litre than regular petrodiesel.

Lastly, almost all diesel engines can run 100% biodiesel or any mixture of bio and petrodiesels _without_modification_. Since it's being sold at every truck stop, everywhere, this is a much more viable solution to pollution than E85 or simply greater fuel efficiency.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/29/2007 7:51:59 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid...

Its opponents say the fuel is prone to freeze and vehicles incur more starting problems in cold weather.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Methusela on 12/30/2007 9:11:36 PM , Rating: 2
All of which are 100% eliminated if the biodiesel is BQ-9000 certified, not to mention modern diesel engines simply don't have the issues brought up in your link.

I think you really should read the NBB's website. It's an excellent solution to pretty much all of the 'green' agenda's bulletpoints.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 4:54:38 AM , Rating: 2
Where's AT-PZEV or LEV certificates.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Lord 666 on 12/27/2007 12:49:42 AM , Rating: 2
You have a better chance of finding ULSD than E85. The only place that I know of that still uses 500ppm is off the NJ Turnpike. Technically, its illegal to use 500ppm in 2007+ cars, but don't see how that can be enforced.

This is another example of creating laws that entrap Joe Average into breaking them. If traveling on the NJT and need to get diesel with a 2007 MB E320 CDI, filling up will be breaking the law.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Lord 666 on 12/27/2007 12:43:42 AM , Rating: 2
For the performance improvements or the "greeness?"

I am debating about trading in my 06 when the new ones come out soley for the performance improvements.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/27/2007 4:55:14 PM , Rating: 2
Toyota also plans intro new 'ultra-clean' diesels in 2008.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/12/03/toyota-to-...


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Polynikes on 12/27/2007 12:56:02 AM , Rating: 2
That may be true, but I think his real point was that good diesel engines are just as efficient (if not more so) than a hybrid, and they should be getting a lot more use in the US.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/27/2007 4:46:21 PM , Rating: 2
Toyota builds diesels (Euro car lines e.g. Corolla D-4D1.4 2007), Flex fuel (e.g. South America Corolla Xli, available in Jan 2008), diesel hybrids (in Hino truck lines) and petrol hybrid (in car and SUV lines).

Each local Toyota factories attempts to supply its surrounding region i.e. as long as Corolla's are selling well in their local region, it’s unlikely you will see Toyota Corolla D-4D1.4 or Corolla Xli Flex in USA.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/26/2007 8:05:34 PM , Rating: 3
Prius 2.0 has 65.70 MPG UK

If you’re going to use UK stats for BMW, why not for the Prius?

Reference
http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/mpg.php


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/26/2007 8:23:59 PM , Rating: 2
BMW, 3 Series E90/E91/R92E/93,
318d Saloon with particle filter

Urban: 27.2MPG UK
Extra Urban: 64.20MPG UK
Combined: 50MPG UK
-------------------------------------------
Toyata, Prius,
1.5VVT-i Hybrid (E-CVT)

Urban: 56.5 MPG UK
Extra Urban: 67.3 MPG UK
Combined: 65.7 MPG UK
-------------------------------------------

Reference discloser.
http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/mpg.php


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/27/2007 11:41:48 AM , Rating: 1
Thanks for providing facts. Diesel proponents are either clueless or probably lie (not telling truth or does not want to know the truth) about the MPG. They will not mention about the emission comparison either.

Being green has two goals. 1) Reducing fuel consumption. 2) Reduce tailpipe emission.

Diesel cars only achieves #1). Gas-only PZEV cars only achieves #2. Only HSD hybrids achieves both.

Note: GM's 2-mode hybrids only achieves #1. Not all hybrids are created equal.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Methusela on 12/29/2007 3:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
That's just a straight-up lie. See my post here for details: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10147...


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/29/2007 9:49:28 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/12/06/study-non-...

Study Finds Certain Ethanol Blends Can Provide Better Fuel Economy Than Gasoline.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/29/2007 11:06:38 PM , Rating: 2
Which part is the lie? Could you extrapolate and provide some source please?


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Methusela on 12/30/2007 9:06:12 PM , Rating: 2
Biodiesel reduces fuel consumption and tailpipe emissions, so your assertion that diesel only does one of the above two is incorrect.

I linked you to my previous post which has a link to the factual data on biodiesel. I suggest you self-service your answer at my link. It's all there, and I wished you'd have followed it instead of retorting.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 10:14:33 PM , Rating: 2
I found no emission related information at nbb.org. Show me one vehicle that runs on bio-diesel and achieve lower or meet LEV. It has to meet LEV for the life of the car (10 years) not just the first year.

Note that Prius' emission (AT-PZEV) is 90% lower than LEV.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Methusela on 12/31/2007 3:50:13 PM , Rating: 2
Did you search their reports database?

http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase...

Search for keyword 'emissions' and you'll find tons of PDF whitepapers on the subject.

I'm not certain what LEV and AT-PZEV have to do with biodiesel, as it's at the discretion of the automobile manufacturer to meet these standards, and since all diesel engines can run biodiesel, they're not making any that are specifically 'biodiesel' vehicles, so I doubt they're doing any certification programs specific to that fuel.

I do realize you were speaking only of petrodiesel, but I want this information to be out there as petrodiesel is quickly on the outs with major shipping companies that have previously relied on it, and ANY regular diesel engine can benefit from it.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 1/1/2008 1:05:52 PM , Rating: 2
In another word, there are no diesel or bio-diesel passenger vehicles (exclusion/exemption of commercial semis) that meets LEV (Low Emission Vechicle) cert yet . We'll have to wait until 2009 or 2010 to see them barely pass the minimal emission requirement.

Remember, a gas-only Civic is ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vechicle). Prius is SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emission) in non-CARB states and AT-PZEV (Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission) in CARB states.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 10:22:04 PM , Rating: 2
My original statement was with the gas-only vehicle as the baseline. Therefore, using today's emission standard makes it easier.

Note: I am not comparing petro Diesel vs. Bio Diesel emission.

Basically, if Bio Diesel achieves gas-only emission level, then hybrid is just a leap (90% less) ahead.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/29/2007 2:13:48 PM , Rating: 2
The Prius has 46mpg US now whereas it used have 65mpg here too. (I don't know about the BMW 318d since it isn't sold here.) Toyota and other hybrid manufacturers were exploiting the EPA/SAE's antiquated methods for determining fuel economy. For example, the 55mph national speed limit was repealed over a decade ago and most states now have 65 and 70mph speed limits. Fual economy is now calculated based on up-to-date factors. This is what brought the Prius' economy and any other hybrid's economy for that matter way down from what it was.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/31/2007 8:46:54 PM , Rating: 2
Toyota and other car manufactures can only quote EPA numbers.

Prius 2004
MPG (city) 48
MPG (highway) 45
MPG (combined) 46


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Joelciefus on 12/29/2007 1:23:26 AM , Rating: 2
What is the main reason that Diesel engines are not allowed in most commuter cars in California and New York? Diesels still get better gas mileage than all of the US market hybrids. E.g. the Smart Four-Two is coming to the US with a gas engine and the UK diesel gets way better mileage...

win64games.com


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/31/2007 1:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What is the main reason that Diesel engines are not allowed in most commuter cars in California and New York?

Although "Clean" Diesel are marketed as clean. The reality is that it is not as clean as highest emission gas vehicles. "Clean" Diesels can not meet CARB lowest emission requirements and that is the reason you don't see them yet.

They are meeting the minimum requirement and coming into the market in a couple of years. Don't count on the emission control equipments to last longer than 150k miles. They are very expensive to replace too.

And here, people are comparing MPG of Diesel and ass-u-me diesel is as clean as gas-electric hybrids (which is incorrect). On top of that, pick on the hybrid's proven battery pack reliability and cost while closing a blind eye on Diesel's emission control hardware.

Either these people are ignorant or have their own agenda.

The reason you see them in Europe is because Diesel fuel is cheaper there and the government allow higher pollution for Diesel. However CARB only has one standard for Gasonline/Ethanol/Diesel/Bio-Diesel and there is no exceptions.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/31/2007 1:18:21 PM , Rating: 2
I meant to say, ""Clean" Diesels can not meet CARB highest emission requirements and that is the reason you don't see them yet."


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Pneumothorax on 12/31/2007 2:32:03 PM , Rating: 2
What's the point of Carb's rules when one old-tech diesel powered is cruising down my local freeway polluting probably as much as 100 new tech diesels cars. And if you do live in this overregulated state you'll see that many times during the day the number of big-rigs approach parity with the number of cars/light trucks on the road. Honda's clean burning diesel does pass Carb's emissions so bring on the accord/civic diesels.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By usbseawolf2000 on 1/1/2008 1:12:02 PM , Rating: 2
The point is to reduce smog in the city where there are a lot of traffic congestion.

Try a google image search for "smog".


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rushfan2006 on 12/31/2007 12:01:35 PM , Rating: 2
No interest in either.

But isn't the point of better MPG to save money? So then WTH is the point on getting the BMW which is (assuming you get NOTHING added to its std package btw) about 11k more than a Prius. Toss in some extras that you like its even more of a price difference.

I just don't see the logic if you are fronting more money up front, substanstially more btw , that measely 2 mpg better fuel economy ain't gonna be squat towards saving you money over the Prius for a VERY VERY long time (first it has to pay you back that extra 11k you spent on the vehicle).

Its the same theory as your wife or GF going shopping with the credit card -- "but hun I got it for 10% off"....."yeah but um...the CC charges 21%!". ;)


Honda CEO is actually wrong
By Lord 666 on 12/26/2007 2:32:51 PM , Rating: 1
I test drove the Honda Civic Hybrid and it was the experience of driving the car is what decided not to get the car. Put simply, the Prius blows away the Civic Hybrid in braking, interior size, acceleration, ease of use, and driveability. The Civic Hybrid cannot power itself under electric as the Prius can. Prius is just a better vehicle at a cheaper price. On my last business trip, I rented a Prius for the duration and it proved to be a very all around car. As I drive a 06 TDI Jetta, it has its pluses and minuses compared to my daily driver.

Personally, I prefer that the Civic Hybrid looks near identical to the gasser. Come in a few years when most vehicles will come in multiple "green" powertrains, the automakers will not have a custom look for the diesel, hybrid, gas, and hydrogen versions. One of the best things VW did was keep all of their models looking the same as their diesels.




RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By Anonymous Freak on 12/26/2007 3:12:59 PM , Rating: 2
The current (2006-2008) Civic Hybrid can run on electric-only power, but it is even more limited in the way it can than the Prius. Basically, you're limited to about 10 miles an hour, and you have to be *VERY* gentle on the gas pedal. Also, at higher speeds, it may shut off the gas engine entirely if you are 'cruising' in such a way that the small electric motor can handle it; unlike the <2006 models, which, if moving, always had their gas engine on.

The big difference is that the HCH's electric motor is directly attached to an otherwise-conventional gas engine through the crankshaft, where it is essentially just a 'booster'; whereas the Prius has a completely custom 'transmission' that makes electric and gas power work seamlessly together. The Prius' electric motors can provide about 44 hp (although the battery pack cannot provide that much instantaneous power,) while the HCH's motor can only provide about 20 hp.

Essentially, the Prius has a very low-tech gas engine with a very high tech electric motor system. The Civic Hybrid has a very high-tech gas engine, with very minimal/low-tech electric motor. They both do their job, though. The big problem is that the Honda's "Integrated Motor Assist" system *SHOULD* be cheaper than the Toyota's "Hybrid Synergy Drive" system, but for some reason, it isn't. (i.e. it costs more to turn a standard Civic into a Civic Hybrid than it does to turn a Camry into a Camry Hybrid.)

As for "Come in a few years when most vehicles will come in multiple "green" powertrains, the automakers will not have a custom look for the diesel, hybrid, gas, and hydrogen versions." comment, it's already that way for pretty much everything other than the Prius. Toyota's other hybrid models only have the small "Hybrid Synergy Drive" logo on them; which from more than about 20 feet away from the car, you can't even tell what it says. The Ford Escape Hybrid just has the little green 'leaf and road' logo, plus the word "Hybrid" where it would otherwise have a trim-line plackard. No stylistic differences. The Honda Civic, ironically, is the one model where there is the biggest difference between hybrid and non-hybrid, because of the funky wheels. (I can tell a Civic Hybrid from a non-hybrid a very long way away if I can see the side; all other models that come in both hybrid and non-hybrid, I have to be pretty close to tell the difference.)


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By RamarC on 12/26/2007 3:20:35 PM , Rating: 2
but the prius is an ugly little bugger. i think most people consider that a plus since it's "distinctive".


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By mdogs444 on 12/26/07, Rating: -1
RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/26/2007 3:38:53 PM , Rating: 5
Too new technology? The Prius has been around since 1997 in Japan and since 2000 here IIRC.

The Prius has been highly reliable and is no more problematic than most other vehicles on the road. Also, the hybrid system and battery are warrantied for 8 years and 100,000 miles... so what exactly is your beef?

Styling is objective, but there is no other mid-sized car on the US market that comes close to touching its fuel efficiency for $21k -- and that says a lot.

As for the political/green talk. Who cares? Why would you care what others think about what you drive?


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By mdogs444 on 12/26/07, Rating: 0
RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By Spuke on 12/26/2007 4:32:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, the hybrid system and battery are warrantied for 8 years and 100,000 miles
Does the warranty cover failures under normal use?


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By Spuke on 12/26/2007 4:34:57 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe I should say does it cover normal wear and tear?


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By Anonymous Freak on 12/26/2007 5:08:41 PM , Rating: 2
Well, the battery and electric motors are covered for ANY "non-abuse" failure for 8 years, 100k miles federally; 10 years, 150k miles in California-emissions states.

This means that yes, if you are in a California-emissions state, and drive your car 149,995 miles in, say, 3 years, and the battery fails, Toyota will replace it. Likewise, say you almost never drive your car, and only have 20,000 miles at 9 years, 11 months, 15 days; and your battery fails from non-use, Toyota will replace it. As long as you haven't made any modifications to the electric system, of course.


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By Spuke on 12/26/2007 5:21:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well, the battery and electric motors are covered for ANY "non-abuse" failure for 8 years, 100k miles federally; 10 years, 150k miles in California-emissions states.
Thanks. That's pretty good.


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By omnicronx on 12/26/2007 7:35:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Too new technology? The Prius has been around since 1997 in Japan and since 2000 here IIRC.
It's still relatively new technology. My parents held off buying a hybrid for the same reason they would never buy the first year of any model of car, thing do and can go wrong. Time will tell how long these prius's last. For those that bought a prius to go 10k a year, you will probably never have a problem, but I have yet to see any extensive testing except for one cabby on how long these things will actually go. Just how many people do you know with a prius that has gone over 150k?

Gas motors are tried tested and true, I think that is all mdogs was getting at.


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By ChronoReverse on 12/26/2007 9:52:01 PM , Rating: 2
Well, taxi cabs have been using Priuses for a while. I believe there was a DT story about one cab that had incredible mileage and was still working great. Toyota purchased that vehicle back and are examining it to see what they did right.


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By omnicronx on 12/26/2007 11:32:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I believe there was a DT story about one cab that had incredible mileage and was still working great.

This was the cabby i was talking about in my post, but although he did go around 300k, it was all within 3 years. How a car responds to years of weather is one of the main aspects I need to look at when buying a car. The cabby test although great to hear, is a far cry from normal 300k driving.


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By mcnabney on 12/26/2007 11:55:04 PM , Rating: 2
Too new technology?

WTF!?!?!

I assume that your computer is based solely on mid-90's tech?
And you don't have an HDTV?
Or DVDs?
And an NES instead of a PS3 or Xbox?


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/27/2007 2:43:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just how many people do you know with a prius that has gone over 150k?


I can think of Jesse's 2001 Prius that went over 336k+ miles. The amazing part is that he just changed his transmission fluid recently.
http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse4.htm

There are also many 2004+ Prius that already made it over 100k miles on Priuschat.
http://priuschat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29373...


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By omnicronx on 12/27/2007 3:03:41 AM , Rating: 2
So they all look like this at 220?
http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse2.htm
It looks like it is about to fall apart


By usbseawolf2000 on 12/27/2007 11:29:06 AM , Rating: 2
Looks like a bumper/fender accident to me.


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By smut on 12/29/2007 2:03:33 AM , Rating: 2
Haha it's clearly listed as an ACCIDENT!


RE: Honda CEO is actually wrong
By encia on 12/29/2007 7:08:42 PM , Rating: 2
It looks like you can’t read.


By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 12/27/2007 7:27:31 AM , Rating: 2
The Prius has an atkinson cycle engine with variable valve timing, and a constantly variable ratio transmission. I would say that's a little more sophisticated than the Civic otto cycle engine.


By usbseawolf2000 on 12/29/2007 11:48:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Prius' electric motors can provide about 44 hp


MG2 can provide 67 hp (50 kW).

quote:
Essentially, the Prius has a very low-tech gas engine with a very high tech electric motor system.

Late intake valve closing (Atkinson cycle) with VVT-i is not low tech. 06 HCH just started the late intake valve closing but it was done in the classic Prius since 1997.

Prius 1.5L ICE torque curve remains extremely flat while the HP shoots up consistently. This is something Honda engine can not do.

More info on Atkinson cycle: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/e...

quote:
The big problem is that the Honda's "Integrated Motor Assist" system *SHOULD* be cheaper than the Toyota's "Hybrid Synergy Drive" system, but for some reason, it isn't.

That's because Honda's IMA added extra complexity on top of the current already complicated legacy car architecture. IMA kept the alternator, belt driven AC, hydraulic steering and worst of all, gear/belt driven transmission.

Toyota simplified the powertrain by integrating the gas engine, electric motor, generator, and e-CVT into one unified unit. One simple/elegant unit can self start/stop, generate/consume electricity, output very low emission, thermal (close to Diesel) efficient, and most importantly, smooth power delivery from 0-110 mph without shifting gears!

Toyota can keep the price lower because Prius is outselling HCH 4:1. Mass production lowers the cost.


Remarkable fuel economy?
By Saist on 12/26/2007 10:07:27 PM , Rating: 1
hmm... let me see if I can put this politely. The VW Golf Diesel was doing 78 miles to the gallon for years, in and out of city traffic. Even the heaviest fuel consuming Diesel cars, as an S-type Jaguar that posted a sub 9:20 second run at the Nürburgring under the hands of a German Race driver is known for easily topping 50 miles to each gallon. I saw somebody post a 48 mile to the gallon number for a BMW diesel, and even that's considered the low "heavy city" mileage.

The Toyota Prius... on the other hand... has never ever reached it's targeted fuel claims outside of lab tests. Independent research shows that it's city mileage barely climbs above 35 miles to each gallon, in the enviroment it is supposed to be best in... and rarely sees anything above 20 miles to each gallon on roads. I've taken a Prius through downtown Atlanta traffic, which isn't exactly what you would call "quick," and where the battery should have shown through. My average during my test run? 31 miles to the gallon.

Sorry, but whoever is still buying the idea that the Prius is a fuel efficient car is just dreaming. If you want fuel efficiency, get a diesel, no way around it.




RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/26/2007 10:14:48 PM , Rating: 2
How about you come to America where diesel cars are few and far between.


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By chilled on 12/27/2007 8:59:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've taken a Prius through downtown Atlanta traffic


He sounds pretty American to me... I think he may got the Jaguar diesel time from Top Gear a couple of years ago.


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By artbronze on 12/27/2007 1:37:49 AM , Rating: 2
You are full of BS and your nose is growing at an alarming rate. i rented a Prius out in California where i had to drive long distances in the desert to get to anywhere and i regularly got 50 - 52 miles to the gallon, so please spare us your negatavism. the Prius is a wonderful car with plenty of accelleration and good braking and indeed above average handling ability. Also what you lemmings on the diesel kick fail to realize is that here in the states diesel cost much more than gasoline and is harder to find. So any increase in efficiency is offset by higher price. Diesels also expell heavier and more copius ammounts of pollution and are a major source of smog. As far as reliability and quality goes while the germans certainly have an image of quality, it is not evident in thier automobiles. All of the VWs I been unfortunate to have worked on were totoal junk and not reliable enough to ever take on a cross country trip. The Mercedes I've seen are not much better having a vaunted reputation for quality but not quite living up to it. Besides a total lacking in reliability the parts for these cars are priced rediculously high jacking up the cost of ownership way up if you can even find parts. And please lets not even talk about the rabbitt. This car even made your run of the mill volkswagen look good. So to put it in a nutshell I am pretty conviced the Japanese have it all over the Germans in both reliability and quality.


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 12/27/2007 7:35:52 AM , Rating: 2
My hybrid Camry gets 38+ mpg consistently in mixed city/highway. When I take a road trip, I consistently get more than 40+ mpg. It is the same power train as the Prius. Since the Prius is much lighter, I would assume it got better mileage.

I know the car magazines consistently post lower mpg for every make and model and mode, but they flail the crap out of everything to test performance, and then, btw, the mpg sucks.

I think most people get about what their mpg claims are for their cars, just the most vocal performance crowd complains the most because they want to drive like a fool and get top mpg figures. That will never happen no matter the powertrain.


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By encia on 12/27/2007 2:49:02 PM , Rating: 2
Not quite the same power train i.e. Camry's 30KW electric motor vs Prius's 50WK electric motor.


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By chilled on 12/27/2007 8:56:28 AM , Rating: 3
Sales figures in Europe speak for themselves. Half of all new cars sold are diesels. It's simple: they're more powerful, more economical, have lower taxes due to lower emissions and same service intervals. They don't sound bad either. Hybrids are hard to spot on the roads, I'm lucky if I spot one Prius a day - and that's in London where they're exempt from the congestion charge!

The Prius is expensive to buy and you'd be lucky if you recover that cost within 8 years. By which time the warranty on the battery expires and the resale values are denting hugely then. Hybrids rely on heavy braking to achieve lab figures and only really benefit in the city. Diesels give higher mpg on all roads and the higher torque you get at lower revs is just wonderful for the cities.

Hybrid cars are not particularly green. You're forgetting to count the CO2 produced manufacturing the batteries in the first place.

Just thought I'd add my 2p with all these comparisons with Europe.


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By encia on 12/28/2007 4:47:15 PM , Rating: 2
That report was debunked by Pacific Institute
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science...


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By encia on 12/27/2007 3:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/27/2007 6:33:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Toyota Prius... on the other hand... has never ever reached it's targeted fuel claims outside of lab tests. Independent research shows that it's city mileage barely climbs above 35 miles to each gallon, in the enviroment it is supposed to be best in... and rarely sees anything above 20 miles to each gallon on roads.


I made these videos just for people like you. Seeing is believing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjdUr2BD6R4
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5629875641...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1484126312...

Prius' Atkinson cycle gas engine (37% well-to-wheel) is as efficient as a Diesel engine.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/i...

Diesel non-hybrid does not shut down engine nor has regenerative braking. How do you expect it to get better MPG than a Prius? I hope you are not depending on the ~15% extra energy in the Diesel fuel over Gasoline.


RE: Remarkable fuel economy?
By encia on 1/1/2008 3:54:31 AM , Rating: 2
UK MPG
---
VW, Golf 3/5 Door,
1.9 TDI DSG
Class:Compact (by EPA i.e. VW Rabbit)

Urban: 37.70MPG UK
Extra Urban: 58.90MPG UK
Combined: 48.70MPG UK
---
Toyota, Prius,
1.5VVT-i Hybrid (E-CVT)
Class:Medium (by EPA)

Urban: 56.5 MPG UK
Extra Urban: 67.3 MPG UK
Combined: 65.7 MPG UK
-------------------------------------------------
Hybrid Commuter Challenge 2006 (Canada)
http://drivingtv.canada.com/BandwidthSelect.php?cc...
Toyota Prius (resulted with 5.2L/100Km).
vs
VW Jetta TDI (resulted with 6.8L/100Km) with manual transmission.


Of course it was a mistake
By GoatMonkey on 12/26/2007 2:13:25 PM , Rating: 2
Hybrid buyers want to project their "green" image of smugness wherever they go. It's much harder to do that when all you have is a small logo. Not to mention that the Prius has a larger interior, and gets better MPG. Both things making it much more practical than the Civic, so they do have a pretty good excuse for not buying the Civic.

The CR-Z has potential if it is either fun to drive and gets very good MPG, or it just gets extremely good MPG. A lot of the reason the Insight didn't sell was because it's a 2 seater. Many greenies are not willing to give up their back seat for the sake of improved fuel economy and/or reduced pollution. There seems to be a threshold that is different in various people, kind of a tolerance for how much inconvenience you are willing to deal with to get better MPG and/or pollute less.




RE: Of course it was a mistake
By masher2 (blog) on 12/26/2007 8:40:51 PM , Rating: 2
> "Hybrid buyers want to project their "green" image of smugness wherever they go. It's much harder to do that when all you have is a small logo."

I'm not sure why you were downrated. You're exactly correct; its a fact that CEO Fukui himself acknowledges. I'm sure the 'next' iteration of the Civic hybrid will be considerably more ostentatitious in displaying its "green credentials".


RE: Of course it was a mistake
By Spuke on 12/26/2007 11:41:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not sure why you were downrated. You're exactly correct; its a fact that CEO Fukui himself acknowledges. I'm sure the 'next' iteration of the Civic hybrid will be considerably more ostentatitious in displaying its "green credentials".
QFT.


RE: Of course it was a mistake
By mcnabney on 12/26/2007 11:57:51 PM , Rating: 2
OMG!

You mean what kind of car you select says something about you?


RE: Of course it was a mistake
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 12/27/2007 7:49:28 AM , Rating: 2
You know, when I bought my hybrid, I did it to get the tax break, to cut my fuel bills in half (less than one tank of regular per week over two tanks of premium before) and to lower US dependence on foreign oil, since some of the profit goes to fund terrorism. I never considered anyone else's opinion of me, for good or bad, or whether they can tell I own a hybrid. I certainly never considered your foolish opinion.

Contrarily, while I don't know anyone who thinks I am being smug by driving a hybrid, I know plenty of people who think idiots who insist on driving fuel guzzling SUV's and Pick-ups to work in the city with only one person aboard are total self-centered d**ch* bags.

I guess its just in who you know.

The CR-Z looks to be a two-seater in fact and for all practical purposes. The problem with Honda's hybrid systems is that they went for the hybrid to promote more performance with slightly less fuel consumption, which is why the Accord failed, according to Honda (too much weight for the slight performance advantage, and no fuel savings anyway). Toyota went a with hybrid designed for total fuel savings. I think the market wants what Toyota has (based on 10X the sales of Hybrid units over Honda), and re-packaging the failed hybrid system (it is the same as the Civic hybrid drive) isn't going to make this pig fly either.


RE: Of course it was a mistake
By GoatMonkey on 12/27/2007 8:18:20 AM , Rating: 2
Suppose you could have bought a hybrid car that looks exactly like a Hummer, but has the exact same specs as a Prius otherwise. Same interior as the Prius, same trunk space etc, so no advantages that a Hummer would give you for its size. It's just a giant Hummer that gets the fuel economy of a hybrid and everyone in the world thinks you're driving a big ass gas guzzling Hummer. Which one would you choose?


RE: Of course it was a mistake
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 12/27/2007 2:57:49 PM , Rating: 2
I would still get the sedan. I don't have any need to compensate for any perceived shortcomings with an outrageously large vehicle, nor do I believe that the vehicle makes the man. I am constantly frustrated because you can't see around the SUV's and PUs fat *ss*s (frustrates the whole purpose of high brakelights), so I wouldn't want to impose that on other drivers. I certainly wouldn't drive one to commute with, no matter the mpg, since they just take up too much space.

Now, if you work for a living and need the space for tools, and there are those vehicles on the road, then god bless you and your PU. I know you are not going to use that SUV for city driving.

Many people get them because they are afraid of one slamming into them and want one for the protection, but where does that end?

The reason people drive them so much now is that we had a bad snow in 95. Before that, they were an oddity.


RE: Of course it was a mistake
By GoatMonkey on 12/27/2007 5:55:19 PM , Rating: 2
Ok. Now take the next step. What if the Prius got worse fuel economy than this hypothetical super Hummer, by let's say 10 MPG.


RE: Of course it was a mistake
By Christopher1 on 12/29/2007 3:42:00 PM , Rating: 2
There is also the thing about that most families today have 3-5 members in their families, mine, with the dog included, has 4, so we NEED that extra passenger space and the backseat.

2 person cars are just not realistic in this day and age, and they would be better to just phase out all 2-seat cars and go to all 3 seat (2 front, and a backseat) cars.


it's the drivetrain
By Chubbbs on 12/26/2007 3:13:38 PM , Rating: 4
Honda had to kill all of its hybrids because their drivetrain is inferior. The electric assist is not much more than an expensive and complex novelty. If they were going to make it so crappy, they should have made it a mild hybrid (aka two-mode, start/stop, etc.), allowing them to price it much closer to the conventional Civic/Accord.

At least the Prius is a reasonable parallel hybrid that can actually accelerate the first several mph on electric, where the torque curve is much better than the ICE, and recover a majority of the kinetic energy though regenerative braking.

Ultimately, though, the hybrid is limited to compact and subcompact vehicles because the increase in fuel economy gets much smaller as mass increases. Fully electric drive (BEV, FEV, E-REV/REEV, or FCEV) is required to address larger or higher-performance vehicles or to add plug-in range. EVs shift the primary design constraint from mass to aerodynamics, and they become more energy-efficient as maximum power increases.

GM has the right idea with the Chevy Volt, Tesla Motors is bringing great stuff to high-end market, and Toyota's probably choosing to keep their EV plans a little less public. At this point, the question has evolved from if we're going to have EVs to when we're going to EVs and now to whether the batteries are going to be LiFePO4 or LiMn2O4 and whether the motors are going to be polyphase induction or DC brushless.




RE: it's the drivetrain
By encia on 12/26/2007 8:11:40 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-12-25-toy...

Toyota also said it was preparing to start mass producing lithium-ion batteries for low-emission vehicles.


RE: it's the drivetrain
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/27/2007 2:51:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
At least the Prius is a reasonable parallel hybrid that can actually accelerate the first several mph on electric, where the torque curve is much better than the ICE


Not trying to be anal but many people incorrectly thinks that Prius (HSD) is a parallel hybrid.

HSD is the hybrid of the hybrids. It is a combination of series and parallel hybrid with the ingenious use of the power split device.

Source: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/w...


RE: it's the drivetrain
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 12/27/2007 7:30:46 AM , Rating: 2
My hybrid sedan in the 3800 # range gets 38+ mpg. That is pretty good for a 4-door with full leather, nav, etc. Not stellar, but cut my fuel bills in half.


RE: it's the drivetrain
By encia on 12/28/2007 5:04:09 PM , Rating: 2
Hybrids are NOT limited to compact and subcompact vehicles e.g. refer to diesel-electric locomotives and Hino hybrid trucks.


couple of questions
By hellokeith on 12/26/2007 1:58:28 PM , Rating: 2
What's the price on the CR-Z?

Will the '09 Accord diesel be available in 2 door?




RE: couple of questions
By Spuke on 12/26/2007 2:08:37 PM , Rating: 2
No price on the CR-Z as its only a concept.


RE: couple of questions
By dajeepster on 12/26/2007 2:30:59 PM , Rating: 2
well.. .I hope it goes into production... i'm in for 1 :D


We've owned three hybrids now...
By rferrisx on 1/1/2008 11:51:20 AM , Rating: 2
We've owned three hybrids now. I drove my 2000 Honda Insight for seven years and 83K miles. Drove it everywhere too: cross country, Silivalley commute, even some gravel logging roads on Vancouver Island, although I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. I bought it for $18K in 2000 and sold it back to the dealer for $5700 this year when I picked up my 2007 Honda Civic hybrid. My wife got the 2007 Touring Prius last January. All three of these cars function quite well.

My Insight had a lifetime mileage of 55.4 mpg. The Civic and the Prius don't keep lifetime mileage, although the Civic odometer spins over at 10K. My first 10K ( I commute 200 miles per day) was 43.6 miles per gallon in the Civic. The Prius gets similar numbers, although probably a little higher.

The Prius has more room for the car seats and the feat of the little one and is our all purpose family car. The Civic is a real road warrior on my rugged commute, the first 45 miles of which take me through weather and mountains. These cars go almost anywhere, are easy to park, roomy, carry luggage, save gas and get great service from their respective dealerships.

On top of this, we will receive a combined $3700 US in tax credits from the IRS very soon. At $3.20 (or more) per gallon here in the Pacific Northwest (and quite a bit more if you have to fill up in B.C.), I really don't see any drawbacks to either model. I have learned to love the Prius license plate camera and the Civic's passing ability.




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