When most people think of hybrid
automobiles, Toyota's quirky Prius is usually the first vehicle to
come to mind. The mid-size hatchback continues to dominate the hybrid
sales charts and remains Toyota's third best-selling car behind the
Camry and Corolla/Matrix.
Many attribute the Prius' success to
its unorthodox shape, its remarkable fuel economy, relatively
inexpensive price for a mid-sized vehicle and Toyota's perceived
bulletproof reliability. Honda, on the other hand, has sat on the
sidelines with its failed Insight 2-passenger hybrid and Accord
Hybrid. The company's only other hybrid, the Civic Hybrid, has
fallen far behind Toyota's shining star in sales.
Whereas the Toyota Prius has managed to
rack up sales of 167,009 units though the first 11 months of 2007 --
16,737 of which were sold in November 2007 -- Honda only managed to
sell 29,352 Civic Hybrids through November 2007.
The Civic Hybrid's lackluster sales
not gone unnoticed by executives at Honda. Honda CEO admits that
releasing a Civic Hybrid with little visual differentiation from more
plebeian Civics was a mistake. “The real competition has just
begun,” said Honda CEO Takeo Fukui. “Until now, it has been an
image-based competition, not a business-based competition.”
There's also the issue of cost to
consider with the Civic Hybrid. The more efficient Prius has a base
MSRP of $20,950 while the smaller, less versatile Civic Hybrid
has a base MSRP of $23,235.
Honda is looking to right its previous
wrongs with two new hybrid models in the next few years. The company
will introduce a production
version of its CR-Z two-seater. The CR-Z uses an updated
version of the Civic Hybrid's Integrated Motor Assist powertrain
and a fuel-sipping 4-cylinder engine.
Honda will also introduce a new $22,000
five-seat Global Small Hybrid to directly compete with the Prius
quote: I wouldn't call a BMW 3-series luxury. My mom's 2007 Camry has better interior materials and comfort, in my oppinion. I could never help but notice the engine noise and ride in a 3-series, and I'm sure a deisel spec wouldn't be any quieter.
quote: As said, the BMW is also in a different price class. You might potentially get more MPG compared to some hybrids, but you'll pay more, thousands more. The resale value of a BMW 3-series is staggeringly low (compared to a 5 or 7 series) and the performance of even the Prius is sure to best the BMW Deisel in acceleration and braking due to the Prius's substantial weight advantage.
quote: If you want to see for yourself talk to someone who deals with higher end used cars
quote: The point is that an "old technology" diesel can get better gas mileage in a similar size car than hybrid technology.
quote: Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane.
quote: quote: Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane.... but, diesel burns more efficiently and has a higher energy-per-litre content so you actually get LESS pollution per mile.
quote: Btw, when you buy a BMW, they are not much higher quality than a prius. That's marketing and public image (AKA BS). In order to make a objective assessment, you'd need statistical data.
quote: Yes, diesel has a higher energy-per-liter content, that's because it has more carbon/hydrogen per liter. It has about 15% more energy per liter...However, when burned, it puts out 15% more CO2. Each gallon of diesel puts out more CO2 than each gallon of gasoline when burned.On the flip side, diesel engines are 20-40% more efficient, hence the higher mpg. So they do put out a little bit less CO2. However, since a prius is much more efficient, the prius is better for the environment than the BMW.
quote: The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles -- the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles.That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use almost 50 percent less combined energy doing it.
quote: PLEASE!Just expect a hummer to last 3 times longer than a hybrid? BULL$#@%! NiMH batteries last A LONG time with the right battery charging and battery monitoring (which I'm sure Toyota implemented). Ever heard of the electric Toyota rav4? It used NiMH batteries and went 200k miles+ easy and still going strong (search it, there was a recent article about it somewhere).A taxi prius has already made it 300k miles easy. Considering the prius is not that old (and not many people have driven them 300k miles), that's pretty good.Now consider the 15mpg of the hummer. Over 100k miles thats 6666 gallons of gas which makes 126666 pounds of CO2 release. Over 100k, a prius burns 2222 gallons of gas and puts out 42222 pounds of CO2. You can't tell me that each prius requires 4444 more gallons of gas to produce than a hummer. (Consider all the extra aluminum, bigger engine, and the fact that the hummer weighs twice as much as the Prius because of bigger wheels, bigger breaks, etc). Yeah, the battery factory probably isn't the cleanest of factories, but neither is ANY factory in the world. Also, lets consider a Hummer requires a lot more factory to produce than a Prius (One of the reasons a Hummer costs 10k more).Oh and the ncpa.org website has headquarters in Dallas and Washington. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot like a lobbying firm and a little one sided.Oh and they talk about nickel being so bad. Mining EVERYTHING from gold to aluminum causes environmental damage. The Hummer uses a lot more aluminum than the prius (just look at the weight). Aluminum has a similar production process as nickel, and causes similar environmental effects.The bottom line, a Prius is the better for the environment and the ncpa.org website is BS.
quote: A Prius with 300k or 100k for that matter is probably less efficient than a regular Civic with the same mileage
quote: Btw, NiMH or even LiIon batteries for that matter do not hold the same charge forever. The basic chemistry of the battery dictates that performance will decline over time. (If you've ever owned a laptop, cell phone, iPod, etc, you know what I'm referring to.)
quote: This is BS. You just have provided an opinion. Please supply the required stats.You are forgetting that Prius engine runs Atkinson cycle NOT Otto cycle. Please review Atkinson cycle vs Otto cycle in regards to efficiency.
quote: The problem with these small devices they don’t have the same battery management software as Toyota’s HSD.
quote: How about the fact that Civic is as much as 300lb lighter than the Prius?
quote: Battery management is great under lab conditions. Although most rechargeable battery users don't operate in a lab. Real world usage of any battery will differ from lab results.
quote: What you said is BS.Referhttp://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents...A degraded EV battery after 160K miles, Prius 1.x’s still yields 51 MPG (without aircon). Unlike Prius 1.x, the Prius 2.0 has an electric compressor (aircon) and it's by EV battery.
quote: Refer tohttp://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-battery-...For Prius 2.0, Toyota have lab data showing the Prius battery can do 180,000 miles (290,000km) of normal driving with absolutely no degradation of the battery’s performance.
quote: Thank you for providing a source for me. If you look at Table 2 on page 13 of your own link, you will see that a Prius with 160k went from 70mpg with AC to 40mpg while the Civic actually increased by 1mpg
quote: Ironically, your links contradict each other. The second link is from a "green" car dealership in New Zealand which makes it basically irrelevant but we'll consider it anyway. They are claiming that Toyota has shown lab results that there is no degradation up to 180k miles
quote: .While my conclusion that the Civic would be more efficient at 100k was wrong, based on the links you provide, it is reasonable to assume that by 300k, the Civic will be ahead of the Prius. (So much for Prius Taxis being better.)
quote: (I know you will feel the need to point out the w/o AC side, but let's be realistic here, the number of people willing to sacrifice comfort for economy is minuscule making that data significantly less relevant
quote: Wow! Wait a second though; didn't your other article just show a 29% reduction after just 160k
quote: vehicle. Battery chemistry is also about age, not just usage.
quote: If you would look at the facts objectively and use a little simple logic and reasoning
quote: While the Prius with 300k miles on it probably still ran; it does have a gasoline motor to run on. The reason the lifespan of a Prius is 100k miles is probably because after 100k, the batteries and electric motor hinder the efficiency rather than help. A Prius with 300k or 100k for that matter is probably less efficient than a regular Civic with the same mileage. I suppose you could always have the batteries replaced in the Prius at 100k for a mere $12k.
quote: While a Hummer may not be better for the environment than a Prius, a regular Civic or a diesel Jetta almost certainly is.
quote: . A Prius with 300k or 100k for that matter is probably less efficient than a regular Civic with the same mileage
quote: BMW3 diesel is stated to get 2 mpg better than a Prius. The Prius guy is still saving 11k or more right off the bat because he spent LESS on the vehicle itself.
quote: What is the main reason that Diesel engines are not allowed in most commuter cars in California and New York?
quote: Too new technology? The Prius has been around since 1997 in Japan and since 2000 here IIRC.
quote: The Prius has been highly reliable and is no more problematic than most other vehicles on the road. Also, the hybrid system and battery are warrantied for 8 years and 100,000 miles... so what exactly is your beef?
quote: Styling is objective, but there is no other mid-sized car on the US market that comes close to touching its fuel efficiency for $21k -- and that says a lot.
quote: As for the political/green talk. Who cares? Why would you care what others think about what you drive?
quote: Also, the hybrid system and battery are warrantied for 8 years and 100,000 miles
quote: Well, the battery and electric motors are covered for ANY "non-abuse" failure for 8 years, 100k miles federally; 10 years, 150k miles in California-emissions states.
quote: I believe there was a DT story about one cab that had incredible mileage and was still working great.
quote: Just how many people do you know with a prius that has gone over 150k?
quote: The Prius' electric motors can provide about 44 hp
quote: Essentially, the Prius has a very low-tech gas engine with a very high tech electric motor system.
quote: The big problem is that the Honda's "Integrated Motor Assist" system *SHOULD* be cheaper than the Toyota's "Hybrid Synergy Drive" system, but for some reason, it isn't.
quote: I've taken a Prius through downtown Atlanta traffic
quote: The Toyota Prius... on the other hand... has never ever reached it's targeted fuel claims outside of lab tests. Independent research shows that it's city mileage barely climbs above 35 miles to each gallon, in the enviroment it is supposed to be best in... and rarely sees anything above 20 miles to each gallon on roads.
quote: I'm not sure why you were downrated. You're exactly correct; its a fact that CEO Fukui himself acknowledges. I'm sure the 'next' iteration of the Civic hybrid will be considerably more ostentatitious in displaying its "green credentials".
quote: At least the Prius is a reasonable parallel hybrid that can actually accelerate the first several mph on electric, where the torque curve is much better than the ICE