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Honda Civic Hybrid

Honda CR-Z hybrid concept
Honda admits that it took a wrong turn with the Civic Hybrid

When most people think of hybrid automobiles, Toyota's quirky Prius is usually the first vehicle to come to mind. The mid-size hatchback continues to dominate the hybrid sales charts and remains Toyota's third best-selling car behind the Camry and Corolla/Matrix.

Many attribute the Prius' success to its unorthodox shape, its remarkable fuel economy, relatively inexpensive price for a mid-sized vehicle and Toyota's perceived bulletproof reliability. Honda, on the other hand, has sat on the sidelines with its failed Insight 2-passenger hybrid and Accord Hybrid. The company's only other hybrid, the Civic Hybrid, has fallen far behind Toyota's shining star in sales.

Whereas the Toyota Prius has managed to rack up sales of 167,009 units though the first 11 months of 2007 -- 16,737 of which were sold in November 2007 -- Honda only managed to sell 29,352 Civic Hybrids through November 2007.

The Civic Hybrid's lackluster sales have not gone unnoticed by executives at Honda. Honda CEO admits that releasing a Civic Hybrid with little visual differentiation from more plebeian Civics was a mistake. “The real competition has just begun,” said Honda CEO Takeo Fukui. “Until now, it has been an image-based competition, not a business-based competition.”

There's also the issue of cost to consider with the Civic Hybrid. The more efficient Prius has a base MSRP of $20,950 while the smaller, less versatile Civic Hybrid has a base MSRP of $23,235.

Honda is looking to right its previous wrongs with two new hybrid models in the next few years. The company will introduce a production version of its CR-Z two-seater. The CR-Z uses an updated version of the Civic Hybrid's Integrated Motor Assist powertrain and a fuel-sipping 4-cylinder engine.

Honda will also introduce a new $22,000 five-seat Global Small Hybrid to directly compete with the Prius in 2009.

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Hybrid, haha
By Lonyo on 12/26/2007 3:10:28 PM , Rating: 2
BMW 3 series 2.0l diesel: 60mpg UK, 48mpg US
Toyota Prius: 46mpg

I know which I would rather have.




RE: Hybrid, haha
By mdogs444 on 12/26/07, Rating: 0
RE: Hybrid, haha
By Samus on 12/27/2007 12:20:50 AM , Rating: 1
I wouldn't call a BMW 3-series luxury. My mom's 2007 Camry has better interior materials and comfort, in my oppinion. I could never help but notice the engine noise and ride in a 3-series, and I'm sure a deisel spec wouldn't be any quieter.

As said, the BMW is also in a different price class. You might potentially get more MPG compared to some hybrids, but you'll pay more, thousands more. The resale value of a BMW 3-series is staggeringly low (compared to a 5 or 7 series) and the performance of even the Prius is sure to best the BMW Deisel in acceleration and braking due to the Prius's substantial weight advantage.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Spuke on 12/27/2007 12:42:24 AM , Rating: 2
Engine noise is a good thing to your typical BMW owner. It's part of the ownership experience. BMW's are primarily SPORTS sedans not luxury cars. Ultimate quiet is not a priority. Nor does BMW have any intention of ever making a Lexus or Cadillac interior for their cars. They're well known for making their interiors all function (all business no frills).

They used to be high on my list but IMO, they've lost some of their edginess. Not the styling, but the handling. Cars like the Infiniti G35/G37 are just as good now at a lower price point. Although, I'm a little partial to the 335i (turbo's do that to me).


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Vesuvius on 12/27/2007 1:26:54 AM , Rating: 3
BMW 320d will beat the ass out of a Prius in MPG, acceleration, top speed, towing capacity, braking, resale value, and life span. Prius will win in emissions, and cool factor...wait...scratch that last one.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By afkrotch on 12/27/2007 11:20:27 AM , Rating: 2
Don't forget, you'll pay more for the BMW and higher maintenance costs.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/29/2007 11:51:49 AM , Rating: 2
BMW covers almost all maintenance under warranty. (4yrs/50k miles) It covers oil changes, brakes, even a clutch if it has not been abused. You can even extend the maintenance to 100k for a reasonable amount.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By otispunkmeyer on 12/27/2007 12:20:30 PM , Rating: 3
someones clearly never set foot in a modern diesel

seriously, modern common rail injection diesel engines are almost works of art and they really do beat on these hybrids. our lexus IS220D is staggeringly good. 177Bhp and 400Nm of tourqe. petrol engines of that size get no where close in terms of torque and thats why that 2 ton thing sat on our drive will haul itself to 60 in 8.6 seconds. (long as u can change gear quick enough)

BMW's 2 liter diesel engines are much the same, as are nearly all the german diesels. their 3.0l ones are even more astonishing. the prius has a hybrid drive supposedly to save fuel, its not there to improve 0-60 times and as such it doesnt. lexus however, put hybrid drives in their cars for no other reason than to extract more performance.

you are right though 3 series are so plentiful today... 2nd hand ones can be had for a song. but i dont think theres any worry that the prius will out perform them. 316i or 318i maybe, but the diesels just have way more torque.

diesels are not the old, noisy, smelly, excruciatingly slow works of satan that they once were. Skoda Fabia VRS is prime example... it smacks the pants off its rival, the mini cooper, and under the bonnet lies a diesel

a 3 series isnt a luxury for the most part (the higher spec ones are) but compared to the naff materials used in the prius you'd be forgiven for thinking a 3 series was the ultimate luxury.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By encia on 12/27/2007 5:01:25 PM , Rating: 2
The Lexus brand is just Toyota's luxury line.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By rninneman on 12/29/2007 12:23:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I wouldn't call a BMW 3-series luxury. My mom's 2007 Camry has better interior materials and comfort, in my oppinion. I could never help but notice the engine noise and ride in a 3-series, and I'm sure a deisel spec wouldn't be any quieter.


Your mom's Camry? Have you ever been in a modern 3 series? The 3 series is a luxury sport sedan/coupe that is competing with the likes of a Lexus IS250/350 which is Toyota's luxury product. BMW certainly is going for sport first and luxury second though.

Your comment about the noise from a diesel motor also leads me to believe to have a rather limited exposure to the vehicles under discussion.

quote:
As said, the BMW is also in a different price class. You might potentially get more MPG compared to some hybrids, but you'll pay more, thousands more. The resale value of a BMW 3-series is staggeringly low (compared to a 5 or 7 series) and the performance of even the Prius is sure to best the BMW Deisel in acceleration and braking due to the Prius's substantial weight advantage.


You have it wrong again. The 3 series holds its value rather well compared to the 7 series. The 5 falls somewhere in between. (This is true with most high end luxury full-size sedans such as the Mercedes S-class too.) The reason is when someone can afford an $80k car, if the difference between used and new were only say $5-10k, most just buy a new car configured as they want. $5-10k for a car that was originally half that price is huge difference in affordability. If you want to see for yourself talk to someone who deals with higher end used cars for a living or browse Autotrader and compare prices on models a few years old versus the prices when they were new.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Spuke on 12/31/2007 11:17:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you want to see for yourself talk to someone who deals with higher end used cars
This is VERY true. Look at the used car prices for a low mileage Maserati Coupe. Shocking to say the least.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Combatcolin on 12/27/2007 12:43:12 PM , Rating: 2
Disagree.

Carbon footprint is becoming more important every year, even if you don't care - your government has vested intrest in promoting greener cars.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By robinthakur on 1/2/2008 5:31:07 AM , Rating: 2
Yes taxing us all an unholy amount on petrol/cars/road tax etc. will save the environment. The most important thing is that all the extra money which the UK government take is spent on the environment. This is clearly happening and I am more than happy with the bankrupting costs imposed by my government, as without it the earth would just cease to survive and our quality of life would be nothing. They clearly would prefer us all to use dangerously unsafe, filthy public transport filled with unsavoury characters and a distinct lack of the luxury I'm accustomed to. Oh and the cost of said public transport went up a whopping 9% today in the UK. What great value. The earth must be nearly fixed by now with all that investment going on, presumably as they pour the cash into all the active volcanoes to try and stop them errupting and spewing CO2. Wait, what's that you say? Government hording the money/not spending it where intended? Trying to stifle laughing in your gullible faces? Surely not...


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/26/2007 3:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, many people would love to have a BMW, but you also have to look at the cost.

The Prius is roughly $21k. A US-spec 3-Series starts at $32.4k. Add a diesel engine, and you'd be looking at at least another grand or two.

It's a pretty lame comparison -- at least if we're talking about the US market. The Prius' closest diesel competitor in the U.S. would likely be a VW Rabbit Diesel (whenever VW starts selling them again).


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Hulk on 12/26/2007 4:07:24 PM , Rating: 2
Not a lame comparision at all.

The point is that an "old technology" diesel can get better gas mileage in a similar size car than hybrid technology.

And keep in mind that a Prius is a pile of steaming dog crap in comparision to a BMW 3 series in terms of build quality, handling, performance, looks, and just about every car metric you can think of.

The point is that hybrid technology is just the newest thing for the wackos to scream about. Now it's hybrid cars and global warming. 30 years ago it was the coming ice age and the fact that we'll be out of oil in 10 years.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Tsuwamono on 12/26/2007 5:28:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The point is that an "old technology" diesel can get better gas mileage in a similar size car than hybrid technology.


Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane. So you may be saving a few cents at the pumps but your not really helping anything.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By loonyjuice on 12/26/2007 7:16:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane.


... but, diesel burns more efficiently and has a higher energy-per-litre content so you actually get LESS pollution per mile.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By MadMaster on 12/26/2007 7:52:52 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
quote:
Diesel is less refined then 87 octane so by all logic polutes more per Litre then 87 octane.

... but, diesel burns more efficiently and has a higher energy-per-litre content so you actually get LESS pollution per mile.


Yes, diesel has a higher energy-per-liter content, that's because it has more carbon/hydrogen per liter. It has about 15% more energy per liter...

However, when burned, it puts out 15% more CO2. Each gallon of diesel puts out more CO2 than each gallon of gasoline when burned.

On the flip side, diesel engines are 20-40% more efficient, hence the higher mpg. So they do put out a little bit less CO2. However, since a prius is much more efficient, the prius is better for the environment than the BMW.

Btw, when you buy a BMW, they are not much higher quality than a prius. That's marketing and public image (AKA BS). In order to make a objective assessment, you'd need statistical data. Of course, car companies do not publish the statistical data. The truth is, the quality of cars today is pretty damn close (comparing a civic to a focus to a prius etc). But with a BMW you do get better customer service...

As a side note, when Ford, GM, and Chrysler lost all their market share to Japanese automakers because of quality, they improved quality dramatically. Today, their cars are much better than they were in the 70s and 80s and early 90s.


RE: Hybrid, haha
By Spuke on 12/26/2007 8:13:19 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Btw, when you buy a BMW, they are not much higher quality than a prius. That's marketing and public image (AKA BS). In order to make a objective assessment, you'd need statistical data.
You say that you need to statistical data in order to make a objective assessment so why did you make a SUBJECTIVE assessment of BMW's quality compared to the Toyota? Without statistical data, you pulled just as much crap out of your a$$ as the previous poster.


RE: Hybrid, haha