backtop

Print 72 comment(s) - last by Chipper Smoltz.. on Dec 6 at 5:02 PM

All-electric Nissan Rogue that can be used in Hawaii  (Source: Better Place)
Hawaii continues to look for ways to go green

Hawaii Gov. Linda Lingle has unveiled a plan for the island state to create an electric car network by 2012, helping rid the state of its heavy dependence on foreign oil.

Electric car company Better Place will be the company responsible for building the electric car network that will cost an estimated $200 million to $250 million in construction.  Better Place has not signed any investors for the project, but will intensify its search in the immediate future.

Better Place was founded by former SAP AG executive Shai Agassi, who is helping lead discussions regarding the same technology in Australia, Denmark, Israel and San Francisco.

Consumers who purchase or lease electric cars will be able to visit Better Place supply recharging service locations to switch out their lithium ion car battery for a full-charged new one.  Better Place will then recharge the new battery during off-peak electricity hours.

Hawaii imports oil for about 90 percent of its total energy needs, which totals around $7 billion per year.  Around one-third of all imported oil is used for cars and buses.  Gov. Lingle wants the state to cut around 70 percent of its fossil fuel use by 2030.

"This is the preferred future," Lingle said during a press conference. "Today is a part of the execution of our energy independence, and our getting off the addiction to oil."

Better Place will purchase wind power and other renewable energies from Hawaiian Electric Co., and other Hawaii-based companies.

The Palo Alto, Calif.-based company is working with Nissan, and plans to talk to Chrysler, GM and Ford.  Other car makers are expected to follow suit, as they will likely want to sell cars where Better Place is building recharging stations.

Better Place anticipates it will build 50,000 to 100,000 charge spots across Hawaii by 2011.  Mass market availability of electric cars should be available to the Hawaiian market in 2012.

Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled
Windmill Graveyard
By therealnickdanger on 12/3/2008 2:21:35 PM , Rating: 3
I spent a few weeks recently on the Big Island and witnessed Hawaii's commitment to "going green". The south side of the island - one of the windiest places around - has a multitude of rusted, busted turbines lining the coast. Total eyesore, not generating any power...

Honestly, if it can't work there...?




RE: Windmill Graveyard
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 12/3/2008 2:42:05 PM , Rating: 2
Salt, water and metal not good together....


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By Chernobyl68 on 12/3/2008 3:34:11 PM , Rating: 3
Europe has tons of offshore wind farms. Sounds like these just aren't maintained.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By heffeque on 12/3/2008 9:13:21 PM , Rating: 2
Spanish wind farm produce 11% of the electricity needed for the nation and the other day it peaked at 43% of the country's needs. That's quite a lot considering it's more than 46 million inhabitants.
Taking into consideration that the country is investing even more in renewable sources each year, it won't take it long to start closing some contaminating energy sources (they've already closed a couple old nuclear plants).

Two things to point out: Spain produces 20% of the wind energy of the whole world, and it's the second largest at solar energy, just a bit below Germany in absolute numbers, but higher than Germany in per cápita numbers. Oh, and it's above the States in absolute numbers (even if it's a country that's a little smaller than Texas).


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By BladeVenom on 12/4/2008 3:37:17 AM , Rating: 2
Denmark is the country that gets the highest percentage of their electricity from wind. Electricity is also expensive there.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By Clauzii on 12/3/2008 4:01:10 PM , Rating: 2
The Danish 'Horns Rev' is placed ~10 nautic out at sea. It has a capacity of 160 MW. I'll guess it's coated and what-do-I-know.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By Smartless on 12/3/2008 2:49:58 PM , Rating: 2
Lol too true. Though I think the northwest of the island has more turbines which are less rusted but still old and not too useful. Yeah the Big Island has lots of things they've tried but none have been pursued past the current facilities. Sad. If any island should have been able to go renewable it would have been that island.

On a side note... Funny part of course is Hawaii may use 1/3 of its oil for fuel in cars but the rest of the 2/3 must go to generating electricity anyway. Especially Oahu.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By NEOCortex on 12/3/2008 3:48:43 PM , Rating: 3
Exactly what I was thinking. They say that about 1/3 of the oil they import is used for cars and buses. But what does the other 2/3 go to. Probably power plants (as well as boats and planes). So if they go electric, all that oil just gets diverted to power plants instead. And somehow they want to cut fossil fuel (basically oil) usage by 70%. Good luck finding that kind of energy somewhere else.

Looks like some islands utilize geothermal power as well as wind power, but they're going to need to significantly expand those in addition to maybe going nuclear to make up for the oil.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By Some1ne on 12/3/2008 4:50:02 PM , Rating: 2
I don't understand why they don't just go for geothermal. They're in the right place to take advantage of it.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By spread on 12/3/2008 8:41:00 PM , Rating: 2
Good idea. Drill a hole into a high pressure active volcano.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By Smartless on 12/4/2008 1:40:25 PM , Rating: 3
Activists and Hawaiian's don't like harming the "aina". In case you're wondering "aina" in Hawaiian means land. Puna geothermal produces roughly 11.5 megawatts. Could go more. Funnier part is other countries along the Pacific Rim Techtonic plate use it more than Hawaii's potential.


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By bodar on 12/4/2008 6:01:56 PM , Rating: 3
Yep, Hawaiian superstition is pretty bad at times. Just ask Whole Foods.

quote:
“I think it’s barbaric,” Kaleikini says. She gets emotional talking about how the remains of a child were among those found at the site and worries that the baby had been separated from its family. “This is my ohana. How would you feel if we were talking about moving your grandparents’ bones?”


http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/...


RE: Windmill Graveyard
By 85 on 12/3/2008 5:09:17 PM , Rating: 3
i lived on the Big Island for 17 years. Southpoint from what i've seen is one of the best places on earth for wind power. Every time ive EVER been there was not without a strong wind. the problem with the white rusted windmills is $$$. there has never really been any upkeep. im pretty sure they are the same ones i saw ~20 years ago.


Another option.....
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 12/3/2008 2:11:05 PM , Rating: 2
a really, really, really long extension cord....

The battery swap idea sounds good at first, but I can not help but think about my gas grill. I avoid having my tank filled by companies that just swaps my tank for a different tank... I give them a new tank, they give me back a piece of junk. I understand in someplace this issue has been addressed but it what comes to mind.




RE: Another option.....
By acer905 on 12/3/2008 2:19:02 PM , Rating: 1
What about using "wireless power" pads, similar to what intel has come up with. Just embed them in the roads at certain intervals. OR put lasers in the road insteady. Either way, just have a receiver on the car, and it will absorb energy as it drives over it.

To conserve the power, it could have a sensor the appropriate distance away (for whatever speed the road is set up for) and as a car drives over it, it activates the pad and by the time the car goes over the power pad there is a blast of energy hitting the car.


RE: Another option.....
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 12/3/2008 2:39:31 PM , Rating: 2
Sure that sounds more practical but then you would not have miles of extension cord taking out, clothes lining, tripping, or flipping unsuspecting pedestrians; like olds ladies with shopping bags.... We have all these cameras at the intersections now, we might has well have some comic relief broadcasted out to the people. Then we could harness the power of laughter like they did in Monsters Inc.

Just a thought....


RE: Another option.....
By cornelius785 on 12/3/2008 4:31:32 PM , Rating: 3
I always get a chuckle out of 'wireless power' and people pushing for it. There are many technical reasons why I chuckle. I just don't feel comfortable with hundreds possibly thousands of watts permeating through the air.

In order to get a 1 ton car to ~40 mph, you'll need 162000 joules. Suppose you want to get up to speed in ~10 seconds, that's 16kW ignoring any sort of friction or efficiencies, nowhere near a little lightbulb. Vehicles need lots of energy to get up to speed and maintain that speed. Based on this alone, I hope you are joking.


RE: Another option.....
By acer905 on 12/4/2008 10:35:37 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, wireless power may have issues, but that was the reason for the laser option as well.

As for energy needed, of course starting takes a lot of energy, but maintaining a speed requires far less. Still, it would probably be difficult to supply the needed energy to keep the vehicle moving forever, however range would be increased. Couple it with any form of regenerative breaking, and it would assist in getting the vehicle moving again. Its not about running the car off the "lasers" or whatever, its a simple matter of extending the range


RE: Another option.....
By JediJeb on 12/4/2008 3:25:43 PM , Rating: 3
Why not just put conductive strips on the highway and run them like slot cars.

Of course people could step on them and get shocked, but at least you would know who was jaywalking.


RE: Another option.....
By YellowDuck on 12/3/2008 3:11:51 PM , Rating: 2
How about just swapping cars like a zip car network.


Who is going to load and unload the battery packs?
By 3DoubleD on 12/3/2008 2:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Consumers who purchase or lease electric cars will be able to visit Better Place supply recharging service locations to switch out their lithium ion car battery for a full-charged new one.


Those battery packs will be very heavy if the car has any sort of range comparable to current vehicles. I can't imagine customers lifting or carrying something over 50 pounds and I'm sure these battery backs will weight at least that much. Even if you had full service stations, how big could they make those battery packs until it becomes too awkward for the attendant to work 8 hours without damaging cars or batteries?

Any ideas?




By clovell on 12/3/2008 2:20:27 PM , Rating: 3
Hydraulic lifts?


By Clauzii on 12/3/2008 4:06:26 PM , Rating: 3
And some robotics ;)


By elessar1 on 12/3/2008 4:39:46 PM , Rating: 3
"embiggen" yourself: http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine...

And remember: A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

cheers


By foolsgambit11 on 12/3/2008 7:25:46 PM , Rating: 3
Why, that's a perfectly cromulent article.

Hey, why isn't cromulent in my spell-checker?


By SwirlyHands on 12/3/2008 4:42:27 PM , Rating: 2
I'm no scientist, but it seems that an open volcano should be somehow available to generate electricity, enough in this case to power all the islands of Hawaii and all the vehicles there.

Lava floes can heat water and run turbines. Again, I'm no scientist, but it seems like a no-brainer like me.

-SwirlyHands




By notromda on 12/3/2008 5:07:47 PM , Rating: 1
yeah, building all that infrastructure right next to an unstable flow that it is so hot it can incinerate the entire site.... that sounds like a great idea!

It's not the scientists but the engineers that are laughing at that.


By foolsgambit11 on 12/3/2008 7:27:50 PM , Rating: 2
Really? They can harness the power of a a cascading nuclear reaction, but they can't get power from hot rock?


By InvertMe on 12/4/2008 9:43:59 AM , Rating: 3
It's called geothermal power. The OP is describing it incorrectly but it's a proven energy source. Hawaii's big island already has a geothermal power plant.


Article
By InvertMe on 12/3/2008 3:13:12 PM , Rating: 5
I almost thought this was a Mick article based on the topic but then when I realized it wasn't named something like "Hawaii is electrified over new cars" or "Hawaii CHARGES forward with electric car" I knew it had to be written by someone else.

Hurray for non-tabloid titles. :)




RE: Article
By oTAL on 12/4/2008 10:17:13 AM , Rating: 2
Furthermore, there were no links to other DT articles on the hole story. That would've been a first....


is hawaii really THAT big?
By kattanna on 12/3/2008 3:47:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Better Place anticipates it will build 50,000 to 100,000 charge spots across Hawaii by 2011.


i know there is multiple islands and all, but do they really need that many?




RE: is hawaii really THAT big?
By wushuktl on 12/3/2008 3:56:33 PM , Rating: 3
it's not clarified in this article but a charge spot is not the same as the stations where battery swaps happen. a single parking lot could have hundreds of charge spots where people would charge their cars while they shop or are at work, etc.


Hawaii Endorses Plan for Electric Cars
By Curly on 12/3/2008 3:19:19 PM , Rating: 2
In a state like Hawaii where the drive destance is very short electric cars might be ok but in some areas where distances are going to be much longer it will not at leat for the foreseeable future. Even in Hawaii there will need increase electric generation by a bought a factor of three. If it is not nuclear it will be exchanging CO2 emitted by cars to CO2 emitted by power generation plants. So will Hawaii be any greener if they they go the electric cars?




By Chernobyl68 on 12/3/2008 3:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
well, I would imagine that a fixed power plant could have better emissions controls than something engineered for a car. plus, the emissions won't be at ground level.


single point of failure
By the goat on 12/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: single point of failure
By bobsmith1492 on 12/3/2008 5:40:29 PM , Rating: 4
Li-po cells are hardly explosive... most certainly NOT explosive! Nor fragile, particularly when in a metal box as they would be for an automobile.


car
By Iceman612 on 12/3/2008 3:30:45 PM , Rating: 2
sounds like a good idea. there may be some problems to fix but they all seem fixable in my opinion. I hope other states soon adopt ideas like this one.




Hawaiian Electric Cars
By FPP on 12/3/2008 5:42:21 PM , Rating: 2
I am wondering how much of Hawaii's electricity comes from fossil fuels to begin with? I know it is significant.




By dever on 12/4/2008 1:35:22 PM , Rating: 2
Obviously, from the tone of the article, Hawaii is going to give favoritism to one industry segment over another.

But this article completely fails to outline how the government is implementing this. Is it funding electric outright with confiscated taxes? Is it shifting the tax burden to consumers of other goods & services through tax breaks/incentives?

It would be nice to know exactly how they are planning to suppress individual freedom of choice.




Problem with healthcare
By Queonda on 12/5/2008 12:55:55 AM , Rating: 2
There's a much bigger problem with healthcare that nobody seems to recognize- Healthcare itself. Look at what people are getting sick by... diabetes, heart disease, cancer, digestive ailments. When God created man, He did not make man deficient in the latest pharmaceutical wonderdrug that he needs to see the healthcare provider to get a prescription for. We're suffering from diseases of the mind-clouding societal media-induced "my body is invincible" lifestyles that have evolved into a physiological monster in the last 50 years. The problem is, the technological super-intellects focus their energy on education, work, and pwning n00bs on chat forums, rather than sustaining their own health through things like "nutrition". You don't have to. Technology has taken care of the hunting and gathering, and now McDonald's feeds your souls into this healthcare deathtrap. You make fun of those who promote healthy living, because we aren't conditioned to consider what will happen then if I do something now. We want food, we eat what's cheap and tastes good, and hopefully the stuff-that-I-didn't-care-to-learn-about-in-college- because-Biology-nerds-don't-get-laid, a.k.a. the body, will auto-correct itself and I won't get sick. I'm not saying healthcare is bad. Everybody will break a bone and need an x-ray. Hospitals save lives every minute of every day. We need to fix a bigger problem, and teach people that you can avoid going to the doctor for things like ear infections, sore throats, colds, indigestion, and problems that lead to the bigger issues like diabetes and heart disease, if you stop driving your Hawaiian electric car to the burger joint every day, and control what it is you're feeding your healthcare-dependent physical infrastructure of toxicity.




Just a Weird Idea
By Chipper Smoltz DT on 12/6/2008 5:02:13 PM , Rating: 2
Hey guys, instead of having recharging stations for swapping batteries that need to be recharged - besides a lot of you believe that the batteries' weight is a negative factor, why not do this. Replace the car instead with another electric car with a battery that's fully charged.

Maybe Hawaii could purchase a lot of these electric cars and assemble a fleet of them in certain places or recharging stations. That way, people could just lease or rent these cars instead of them owning one. I know there are alot of disadvantages of this like the car's maintenance if ever coz it's gonna switch users from time to time. But if they charge a certain fee to cover for those expenses then it would help people even without an electric car to drive one although ultimately it's not their's but the local government of Hawaii or a tie-up with Hawaii and the electric car manufacturer.

Anyways, the logistics, planning and computation of expenses / rental for the cars should be something that would cover for everything that might happen even though there are insurance companies that could also help. At least, for those without cars, they could easily rent these types of cars, only thing is, they need to rely on the person being honest enough not to cannibalize the cars parts and such for their own profit but to dissuade this maybe they could set up a one-time huge fee then as the lessee becomes loyal and trustworthy enough, this annual or monthly fee could gradually decrease. Personal information regarding the person could easily be taken from his SSS number or driver's license thus his reputation is at stake if he or she does something bad to the rented car.

Just one of my weird ideas guys. Hope it helps.




Learn from your mistakes
By FITCamaro on 12/3/08, Rating: -1
RE: Learn from your mistakes
By InvertMe on 12/3/2008 3:09:17 PM , Rating: 5
Yes because socialized medicine and electric cars are so similar and are comparable projects.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Ringold on 12/3/2008 8:06:32 PM , Rating: 1
The ideology is the same; the government can fix all our woes.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Tsuwamono on 12/3/2008 3:39:29 PM , Rating: 2
Canada embraced socialized medicine and the USA did not.. How did that turn out?

Oh ya Canada = 13 billion$ surplus and what was the USAs surplus again? oh wait.. thats right...


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 12/3/2008 3:56:18 PM , Rating: 1
Yea, it's also why a lot of my Canadian friends come down from Canada and pay cash for medical treatment. They can not get their medical needs met in Canada because a Doctor will only get pay 40 hours for the week (no overtime options). So, they go home at hour 40 no matter who waiting and willing to pay....

The US has not had a surplus since Thomas Jefferson (or very near his time in office). Spending less then your budget is not a surplus, it just budget control. A surplus would be every bill 100% paid, we owe no money to no country, person, place or thing.... All T-bills paid, all fed bonds paid... No one can say you owe us even $1.00 - Once this country reaches this point every $1.00 in the government bank account becomes a surplus, something that has only happened in the USA once.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Tsuwamono on 12/3/2008 5:03:50 PM , Rating: 2
I have never had a problem being served. I wait for 20 minutes or less for my family doctor and my father went into the hospital(drove there because hes a stubborn ass) with a dislocated shoulder and he was in within 5 minutes(including the time to give his health care card).

I dont see where these bad stories are coming from. Never once have i been turned away or been left waiting for hours like you believe. I have seen it when there is an abnormal amount of flu patients that come in just because they have the flu but thats it. those people wait and the people with actual problems go first.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By quiksilvr on 12/3/2008 5:36:29 PM , Rating: 2
That's not the point. The point is Canada did a shoddy job on Universal health care. Europe did an awesome job simply because they made sure that nearly every doctor that worked there were damn good ones.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By TSS on 12/4/2008 10:26:06 AM , Rating: 2
cheap, fast, good, choose 2.

the medicare in europe is either cheap and good but you spend months on waiting lists, or it's fast and good, but it doesn't come cheap. it's all about which you'd prefer.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By bobsmith1492 on 12/3/2008 5:37:35 PM , Rating: 1
It depends on what you're in for. Standard care (checkups, ear infections) or emergency care (broken leg, car accident) is no problem. Anything beyond that - cancer, heart disease, organs, anything complicated - head to the US of A...


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 12/3/2008 5:56:54 PM , Rating: 2
Bingo... that must the difference. My two friend (now both dead) had cancer. The waiting list to go see a doctor was months long. So, they paid cash in the US, and of course they told of sick friends that did the same thing.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By MarcLeFou on 12/4/08, Rating: 0
RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Tsuwamono on 12/3/2008 6:11:51 PM , Rating: 2
I have a heart problem that was discovered after a start EKG test done by my family doctor. I was sent the next day to the hospital to get it checked.

My mother had fibromyalgia and she never had problems going for new tests or anything.

Satisfied?


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By congressive on 12/3/2008 5:18:10 PM , Rating: 1
Not only has this lie been debunked, but the opposite is arguably true. Americans are flocking SOUTH of the border for medical help:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/169827

The "Canadian comes to America" lie has no legs. Stop taking it out for a walk already. No, you don't have a lot of Canadian friends. No, they are not coming south to pay because they are impatient.

quote:
A 2005-2006 study of Ontario emergency departments conducted by the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) found the following:... 50 per cent of patients who require the most urgent care were seen by a doctor within six minutes and 86 per cent were seen within 30 minutes of arrival in emergency departments.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Reclaimer77 on 12/3/2008 5:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not only has this lie been debunked, but the opposite is arguably true. Americans are flocking SOUTH of the border for medical help:


HAHAHAH !!! MEXICO !!!???

You are a wacko. Did you even read the article ? Its about uninsured people, from ONE state, crossing into Mexico. Texas. First off, in America, if you are not insured its your own fault in the first place. Sorry, thats a fact.

I'm so tired of hearing these elderly sob stories. People who pissed away money their whole lives, didn't invest or open 401k's, and who just figured social security would take care of them. Yeah, nice plan idiots. Actually its NO plan.

This article is HARDLY proof that our health care system has failed, or IS failing. Which its patently not.

Also NOWHERE in the article is the FACT that illegal immigration is one of the BIGGEST causes of our healthcare problem right now. They are absolutely overloading the system and the rest of us, who actually pay and have insurance, are having to pick up the tab.

And socialism is a good thing ? Socialism is the PROBLEM.

quote:
The "Canadian comes to America" lie has no legs.


Neither does your argument. For every 1 American that goes to Mexico because its cheaper, there are 400 ILLEGAL immigrants who come here because its FREE for them and their children.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Tsuwamono on 12/3/2008 6:13:44 PM , Rating: 2
Yes because being poor is your own fault...

You sir are Epicly Moronic


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Ringold on 12/3/2008 7:54:29 PM , Rating: 2
Generally speaking, it is. Only children can whine about their plot in life. Adults in America create their own path.

FFS, look at Obama. Half-black from a broken household, grew up relatively poor. He was motivated however, and created his own destiny.

I wouldn't expect socialists to understand this though.


By StevoLincolnite on 12/3/2008 9:50:21 PM , Rating: 2
Bill Gates, didn't even have a few thousand bucks when he was younger, now he is one of the richest people in the world.

However saying a "Socialist" won't understand it is a bit miss-leading, I guess you under-estimate the intellect of some people.

Socialist Societies help the less-fortunate in getting a kick start in life, instead of ending up being a beggar, I don't expect you to understand this though, but the dramatic difference of those living on the streets because of various reasons like Depression or other mental affliction is much less in Socialist Society's than what is shown in America. - Most Socialist Society's have also been having a budget surplus (Like Australia and Canada) - Which has been incredibly beneficial to those countries in dealing with the financial crisis.

I was kicked out of home at a very young age with only the clothing on my back thankfully the system worked and helped me on the right path, gave me a roof over my head and an income. - 10 years later...

I own my home, my own vehicle, work hard and pay my taxes. (I'm in my mid twenties) - without that support I would probably not be where I am today.

Communism is the height of Democracy, It is a Single Party and no one votes.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 12/3/2008 6:10:37 PM , Rating: 1
"The "Canadian comes to America" lie has no legs. Stop taking it out for a walk already."

Ahhh,,,, wrong. These are not stories to me they where very close personal friends. Ones that knew for 20 years and I cried for when they died. They where the ones that told me how they could not get the proper medical service in Canada, nor could many others in the same medical condition.
They had nothing to gain financially or politically by telling me their story. They were just venting their frustration at the system they were stuck with.

" No, you don't have a lot of Canadian friends."
Hey, buddy, don't ever try to guess my life or life style. You have no real idea who I am and how many friends I have. Guessing makes you look like an idiot.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By foolsgambit11 on 12/3/2008 7:17:30 PM , Rating: 2
I don't mean to sound callous; I'm sorry to hear about your friends. But considering that they died from their illnesses, how exactly does that make the U.S. system better than the Canadian system? You may be seen faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean better results. And in the end, it's results that matter.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Reclaimer77 on 12/3/2008 7:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
Because things like Cancer are time sensitive. You can't fud your way past the mountain of documented evidence that wait times for urgent care in Canada are not acceptable.

Also, and this is a fact, why would the most brilliant medical minds work under a socialist system where the government decides your wage ceiling ?


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By MarcLeFou on 12/4/08, Rating: 0
RE: Learn from your mistakes
By foolsgambit11 on 12/3/2008 7:00:57 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, that's not a surplus. I get what you're saying and all, but you don't get to redefine words based on your own whims. When your income exceeds your outgo (as they say) you have a surplus. When you have no debts, it's called... um... being debt free. I don't know that there's a word for it. Possibly because it's assumed to be the natural status of a person's (or any entity's) finances? I don't know. Like how there's a word for short, and a word for tall, but there's no special word for in between. It's just normal.

Of course, there's a reason the government doesn't like not owing money. Paying taxes sucks, but paying taxes that aren't actually being used for anything is intolerable. I haven't looked into it, but I'm assuming that the government was totally in the green during TJ's tenure due to import taxes, or some other taxes levied on non-Americans. But that's just a guess.

Interesting - I was looking up public debt on the-W-word and found out that, as a percentage of GDP, the national debt has shrunk under every Democratic President since World War II. And, with the exception of Nixon's first term, it has grown under every Republican President since WWII. Fiscal conservatism my foot.


By Seemonkeyscanfly on 12/3/2008 7:30:29 PM , Rating: 2
Not making up my own word or meaning.... Surplus is Surplus. What he is actually talking about is "budget Surplus" . Yes, I understand the media and many like to drop the word budget. As Economics was one of my fields of study, I have a habit of trying to point out the difference so people realize they are saying one thing but meaning another.... Sometimes I do a good jobs and other times I'm rushed and miss some key points....

The surplus under TJ, I forget the exact reason but remember it having mainly to do with the buying and selling of land. Yes, I'm sure tariffs and such also helped - however, remember as a young republican country that fought hard not to pay taxes without representation; the government at that time did not collect much in taxes....


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By bobcpg on 12/3/2008 3:57:03 PM , Rating: 1
yeah, but if I want fast, quality health care I need to head to the states or sue the Canadian Govt - Sweet Deal...NOT


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Reclaimer77 on 12/3/2008 5:43:23 PM , Rating: 2
Are you saying Canada's budget surplus is a DIRECT result of healthcare ?

Yeah, can I see some numbers on that please ? If you are going to make statements like that, you need to back them up.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By noretardparty on 12/3/2008 6:03:37 PM , Rating: 2
All those who critic Canada are Republicans. Why is it that Repubs are so closed minded and stubborn?


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Reclaimer77 on 12/3/2008 6:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All those who critic Canada are Republicans. Why is it that Repubs are so closed minded and stubborn?


I don't see anyone criticizing Canada. Usually a Canadian brings up their healthcare system, like its the greatest thing since sliced bread, as a dig against the U.S.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By foolsgambit11 on 12/3/2008 7:11:22 PM , Rating: 2
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Universal Health Care is better than sliced bread. The U.S. health care system is better than sliced bread. If I had to rate them, I'd say:

sliced bread < US health care < Canadian health care

I understand the arguments against the Canadian system. But I think it's easier to get from where Canada is to an ideal public-private partnership (where all care is provided by the government, but the option exists to pay for 'improved' services to supplement shortfalls in the public system) than it is to get from where the U.S. is to an ideal setup.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By Ringold on 12/3/2008 8:05:19 PM , Rating: 2
I actually disagree that it'd be easier to get the Canadian system to an optimal state than the American one, simply because government programs tend to be much harder to modify than private institutions.

Also, why does Canada get all the attention? Just because it's closest to the United States? I for one think Switzerland has a system that is about as good as one can get. Yes, it's not socialized (sorry, Bolsheviks), and it's subsidized via tax policy (sorry, libertarians). Costs are also higher than elsewhere in Europe. But the higher costs in Switzerland and America, in my view, are massive subsidies that give big pharma and biotech's incentive to create new drugs, which the socialist countries then leech off of. The Swiss model also takes the insurance out of the hands of business, which is only slightly better than outright government control.


RE: Learn from your mistakes
By hobbes7869 on 12/3/2008 7:07:54 PM , Rating: 2
I am not stubborn, I do not believe that it is my duty to pay for someone else's health insurance. IE: Not my duty to pay for someone who is uninsured. They are not trying. You can get into health care easily enough, search it out online and pay for it. Frankly, I do not want to help those people out. I do not care who they are, if they cannot figure out how to get health care, it is their problem, and not societies. My duty to society is to try to continuously improve and make as much money as possible, and not feel guilty or be criticized for it. Who is John Galt?


"People Don't Respect Confidentiality in This Industry" -- Sony Computer Entertainment of America President and CEO Jack Tretton









botimage
Copyright 2012 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki