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Black Friday sales boost HD DVD base to 750,000 strong

With the rapidly falling price of HD DVD players, it’s no surprise that many consumers are finally making the jump to high-definition. Apparently, HD DVD had a strong enough Thanksgiving shopping week to warrant the North American HD DVD Promotional Group to issue a press release announcing a sales milestone.

Thanks to incredible pricing on Toshiba HD DVD players leading up to Black Friday, total sales for HD DVD players in North America have exceeded the 750,000 mark. The data is based on retailer reports and other point of sale data, and includes standalone set-top players as well as the Xbox 360 HD DVD player, said the HD DVD Group.

"HD DVD continues to gain momentum and market share with consumers," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment, and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "With more than four weeks left for holiday shopping, HD DVD is turning out to be a perfect consumer electronics gift."

Prices of HD DVD players started to plummet when retailers such as Wal-Mart, Circuit City and Amazon.com began to sell the Toshiba HD-A2 player for under $200. Wal-Mart upped the ante even further by offering the same player for $98.87 during an in-store special secret sale. Best Buy matched the sale and went the extra mile and offered the newer HD-A3 in place of sold out HD-A2 sales.

While the HD DVD Promotional Group isn’t releasing specific sales information just yet on its Black Friday performance, it’s known that Toshiba sold 90,000 HD DVD players during the first week of November thanks to the new low prices.

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The rest of the story
By tallcool1 on 11/28/2007 9:00:41 AM , Rating: 3
I read this yesterday at tgdaily.com.
tgdaily article concludes with:
quote:
According to the HD DVD Promotional Group, standalone players have outsold standalone Blu-ray devices, which excludes the Playstation 3. The Digital Entertainment Group agrees, reporting that standalone Blu-ray player sales have not even reached 200,000 units yet. However, when the PS3 is factored in, Blu-ray dwarfs its competitor.

According to the Financial Times, PS3 lifetime sales have reached 3.7 million units. This has led to Blu-ray movies consistently outselling HD DVD titles, usually at a monthly rate of two-to-one.




RE: The rest of the story
By Chaser on 11/28/2007 9:08:06 AM , Rating: 2
At this point I think a substancially cheaper standalone BR player would pretty much close this deal. One that would be cheaper than the entry level PS3, around $250.00? Just a thought.


RE: The rest of the story
By iFX on 11/28/2007 9:19:56 AM , Rating: 1
If Blue-Ray is outselling HD-DVD 2 to 1 they need a cheap stand alone player fast to put the nail in the coffin. If they were to offer one for $99 like HD-DVD has then more people would pick them up.

Personally I don't care who "wins" or why one is better than the other (because I tend to think regular DVD is just fine). But I won't spend a penny upgrading until one format "wins".


RE: The rest of the story
By Chaser on 11/28/2007 9:35:05 AM , Rating: 2
Nor do I. I could care less about brands, names, manufacturers or whatever. The highest capacity is the only factor to me.


RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 9:41:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The highest capacity is the only factor to me.

Thats really kind of a moot point seeing as how it doesn't really matter whether you can fit 10, 20, 30 ,50 etc GB on a disc, when all they have to do is add more layers.

So something like the storage space argument, that really has no bearing on the high definition quality of the video and audio, should be the least of your concerns.


RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/07, Rating: 0
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 9:58:23 AM , Rating: 4
And the cost of producing sony's BD-DVD is greater than producing the HD-DVD. But what you guys are saying is that price doesn't matter, its the storage capacity you get.

But now, you turn around and say the storage is what matters, because its more expensive to create layers?

Pick a side, it doesnt really matter because its a moot point argument - that only plays a definitive role in the PC storage industry. When you are using them for High Defintion video & audio content to be played in a DVD player - the storage capacity has proven not to matter because the movie quality is still the same.


RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/07, Rating: 0
RE: The rest of the story
By blaster5k on 11/28/2007 11:52:20 AM , Rating: 5
Sure, you might be able to get lossless audio in there more easily, but is that something you're really going to notice while watching a movie? DD+ already offers 7.1 sound with less compression than DD5.1 and DTS. And does a slightly better video compression rate really have a big impact on quality? The rate is already high enough with more efficient codecs like VC-1.

Consumer Reports recently tested a bunch of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players and came to the conclusion that they were basically the same in terms of perceivable quality. This would imply that storage capacity is a moot point -- as far as video quality is concerned.

Extra space might make it possible to fit more TV episodes per disk or avoid splitting long movies in some cases. It might be beneficial to people backing up data, though a triple layer HD-DVD may be more cost-effective still than a dual layer Blu-Ray disc -- hard to say at this point.

I think it boils down to cost though. Blu-Ray is a more radical departure from DVD and carries a higher cost. Are the benefits worth that extra cost? That's the real question I think.


RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 2:31:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sure, you might be able to get lossless audio in there more easily, but is that something you're really going to notice while watching a movie? DD+ already offers 7.1 sound with less compression than DD5.1 and DTS. And does a slightly better video compression rate really have a big impact on quality?


Unquestionably, yes.

And I love how people keep quoting this Consumer Reports study that said the players were "basically the same" even though the average rating was 87 for Blu-ray players and 81 for HD DVD players. Yes, that is basically the same isn't it? The spin on that article has been tremendous.

Brandon


RE: The rest of the story
By DrKlahn on 11/28/2007 3:00:30 PM , Rating: 2
Unquestionably false. Neither VC-1 nor MPEG4 AVC need compression rates exceeding that available to HD DVD.


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/28/2007 3:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
Of course a good studio will always try to include a Dolby TrueHD track which is every bit as good as PCM. Paramount is finally doing this with the Star Trek Season 1 discs, Warner has been doing this for a long time now. Dolbe Digital + is alright, but TrueHD is preferable and really there's no reason in the world why an HD-DVD disc should exclude it (other than old remastered films originally dubbed in mono or stereo).


RE: The rest of the story
By rockyct on 11/29/2007 6:58:28 AM , Rating: 2
Cost is only an issue when buying the player. The cost of the Blu-ray disks vs. HD-DVDs are basically the same to consumers. Blu-ray disks may cost a little more to make, but they don't really charge more for them.


RE: The rest of the story
By DigitalFreak on 11/28/07, Rating: 0
RE: The rest of the story
By Moishe on 11/28/2007 10:01:02 AM , Rating: 4
Capacity is not everything. If it were and if price was no object like Sony seems to think, they they could just sell ultra high super-duper definition movies on 1TB Seagate drives.

If any HD movie and it's extras can fit on both HD-DVD and BRD than the larger capacity of BRD is pointless precisely because movies is what we're talking about here.

If we were talking about the amazing new data storage media, BRD would win but movies are defining this format war, NOT storage.

For every techie who cares about storage size, you will find 1 million regular consumers who don't know (or care) and just want to watch the movie.

As a techie myself, I ceased caring about optical media a long time ago and I simply use hard drives now. 50GB on an optical disc makes no difference to me.


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/29/2007 12:02:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If it were and if price was no object like Sony seems to think


BRA is steadily dropping prices to maintain a for-profit model. Toshiba can firesell for a day at $100 and give you the perception of a more "consumer-friendly" format. It is inherently less costly to manufacture HD-DVD, but I challenge your contention that BR's storage capacity has no benefits over HD-DVD for movies. HD-DVD is already running into disc space issues as studios are having to choose between lossless audio and bonus material, even on the flagship transformers release. Only a minority of releases feature better audio tracks than their DVD counterparts. If you're going to invest $1000 into upgrading all your DVDs, wouldn't you want to spend that extra $100 on a blu-ray player? If you consider yourself average and don't know or don't care, then why wouldn't you just buy regular DVD to begin with? It doesn't make sense to go halfway on next-gen for petty and short-term cost discrepancies. Have patience and support blu-ray.


RE: The rest of the story
By blaster5k on 11/29/2007 9:21:16 AM , Rating: 2
It's not true that a minority of releases have higher audio quality than DVD. Every HD-DVD release uses at least Dolby Digital Plus, which is a higher quality audio encoding than DD5.1 and DTS, which are used on DVDs. It has a higher bitrate and 7.1 channel sound. Many titles offer lossless audio as well.

For the cost of buying a Blu-Ray player now, I can buy an HD-DVD player instead and then a new Blu-Ray player in a couple years when its price finally comes down. Maybe Blu-Ray players will even support internet connectivity and other HD-DVD features by then. And maybe more of the releases will be updated to not use MPEG2 and single layer discs.


RE: The rest of the story
By FITCamaro on 11/28/2007 9:50:18 AM , Rating: 2
So I could sell you a player that offers the ability to play 500GB discs even if it had no movies available for it? Your comment makes you look quite dumb unless you were referring to hard drives.

For movies, the 30GB of HD-DVD is more than enough.


RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By AlphaVirus on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 10:51:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The fact that Blu Ray Discs hold more than HD DVD is a big factor in the movie industry.

I dont see that as holding true, and you'll be hard pressed to make any solid case in court with that statement. If that were true, then all studios would offer their movies in BD.

quote:
Oh and the price factor, here is something that might help a few.

How is this anything special? An internal BD bare drive for $200, when you can already use the external 360 drive for PC for $160? Or how about the fact that there is already a $299 BD + HD internal bare drive on the market being sold by newegg.


RE: The rest of the story
By therealnickdanger on 11/28/2007 10:52:08 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
The fact that Blu Ray Discs hold more than HD DVD is a big factor in the movie industry.

Yeah, it means so much that most movies don't use the extra space and the ones that do use it look no better than the best HD-DVDs. *sigh*


RE: The rest of the story
By DigitalFreak on 11/28/2007 2:08:51 PM , Rating: 1
You are still a poo-poo head


RE: The rest of the story
By Chaser on 11/28/2007 10:40:31 AM , Rating: 2
This is most definitely more than just movies. And I'm sure any techie understands that retail outlets need media to stick in boxes and sell. I seriously doubt internal hard drives are going to be sold pre-labeled and installed with software titles in boxes to go.

And you guys saying 30GB is enough? Can you site any time in the "techie" world when less capacity for the next removable disk media standard which contains high definition movie video, data or commercial software in a retail box, that less is better or "enough"?


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 10:55:21 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Good enough means good enough for beer swilling rednecks with a 32 inch vizio lcd.


And who do you think the market is trying to cater to? Yes, the average redneck citizen with a 32" LCD tv...dumbass.

Its called the "average consumer" for a reason. You dont build marketshare by only catering to people who even know what "lossless audio" is....go bring that phrase up to the average person in bestbuy debating on what kind of dvd player to buy, and see if thinks you are speaking another language....then ask him if hes interested in spending hundreds of dollars more for a product that gives him some kind of techno-geek quality in which he cant even pronounce.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 11:17:44 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
So maybe you can explain to me why I should have to put up with a lesser picture and sound quality and no potential for future improvement for the beer swilling redneck to save $100 on his player?

For one simple reason - the world does not cater to YOU. The industry caters to its target audience. Its about making money, not pleasing SavagePotatohead. Sure they will have top line high definition DVD players available, but they will not be targeted towards the mainstream audience. Its the same as going to the local electronics store (bestbuy, circuit city) and the average person buying a computer. They buy a budget computer ... not one with an 8800GTX graphics card. But now what - are you going to complain that every computer should come with an 8800GTX graphics card because its hindering your ability to have the best graphics available because the average consumer doesnt want to spend as much for what could be available as top of the line?

quote:
I can't see any good reason. Given time blu ray will have extremely cheap players same as hd-dvd will. What I don't get is intelligent people supporting bottom of the barrel just because they have a fear of sony.

First off, this has nothing at all to do with Sony...because there are just as many people with a hatred of Microsoft (which has some ties to HD-DVD). What it has to do with is price - because that is what determines the market for the average consumer. It works that way in cars, electronics, everything. There is always something out that can be bigger and better...but the point is that people do not want to pay for that...even if it will eventually come down in price, because by the time it does, something else new will be out. You are acting like the purchasing home electronics is like making an investment - let me tell you the truth, its NOT. Its like buying a care - its always going to lose its luster when something new, bigger, and better comes out.

Also, the average consumer knows better than to buy the most expensive product, especially right when it comes out because everything drops in price. So as the BD players drop in price, so do the HD players. So which do you think is more appealing to the average consumer?

Its obvious that you are a sony fanboy - but back before you time, there was this thing called Betamax. Trust me when i tell you that many people older than you, in their 40's, 50's, etc bought those betamax's because it did offer better quality, and needless to say, they got stuck with expensive paperweights. Sony's reputation for being overpriced, and trying to gain the exclusive marketshare isnt somthing that has jsut started recently...consumers like your parents have gone through it with them too.

quote:
It's a sad sad thing to see people push for second best technology out of either sheer cheapness or pure hate for a corporate entity. I personally would be very disappointed to be subjected to having someone choose the lowest common denominator for me by ensuring a sub par product like hd-dvd won out.

What you dont understand is that the average person out there isnt trying to prove anythign to anyone. they dont feel the need to have THE BEST of everything. they just want something thats nice, works, and is cheaper in cost so that it leaves more money in their bank accounts. The average person could care less about 1080i vs 1080p, lossless audio, 30gb vs 50gb, 256 vs 512mb video cards, etc. Let it sink into your head - average people dont care! Its all about having something thats better than what they currently, at a price that they deem affordable. Thats it, bottom line.

What you need to sit down and think about is the fact that you are not in the "average consumer" portion because you are an electronics geek. Most people are not. This is one of those cases when you are the minority, and you are not the primary target audience to make the decision of which direction the product goes.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 11:53:00 AM , Rating: 4
So basically your screaming like a little kid in the store when his parents tell him they will not buy the overpriced toy.

Yes you fail to comment on anything of the answers I gave to your stupid questions.

Nice to see that you feel you know how to spends everyone elses money wisely, and that you feel your intelligence is enough to make everyones decision for them.

You obviously are a little boy who's supported fully by his parents dollar (or loony in this case).

Here's in hopes that maybe Canada will realize what a mistake they made when you weren't elected Prime Minister, and get Tim Horton...I mean Stephen Harper out of office to be replaced by Mr. Potato Head.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 12:07:02 PM , Rating: 3
There ya go. Thats typical. Get feisty when you run out of arguments because your point will never be valid. If you really wanted to convince people that drinking the Kool-Aid is a good thing, then perhaps you should go find a crop of idiots who will listen to everything you say, without questioning it.

Also, dont start with the personal name calling crap - as i recall it, you were the one accusing every HD-DVD owner of being a "beer chugging redneck" or something of that sort. Which is somewhat of a paradox considering you are from the country with some of the most remote, bare, redneck lands in North America.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 12:24:17 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
You are exactly what you accuse me of being, an angry ranting little fanboy. I have no surprise since dailytech is the unofficial home of the hd-dvd fanboy congregation.

I find it quite humorous that you call me a fanboy - because as of right now, i dont even own a standard DVD player. Also, DT is not a congregation of ProHD-DVD people. Its a congregation of people in which their is no majority of fanboyism for Sony or MS - therefore you are not going to get everyone to agree to everything when you mention Sony as you would on your PS3 forums.

quote:
Lying to yourself about somethings superiority because the players are $100 cheaper on the other hand I don't understand.

No one is lying about the superiority anymore than you are lying about the superiority because the Sony is $100 more.

quote:
In the long run both will be dirt cheap, just as DVD is dirt cheap. Knowing that, I chose the format with superior specs and more to offer in the long run.

In the long run, both will be cheaper , but not equally cheap. its taken 10+ yrs for DVD's to be such commonplace, and Sony is still more expensive than the average DVD player is. In fact, a standard Sony DVD player is still more expensive than a Toshiba upconverting DVD player that also plays Divx. Hows that for lack of superiority & price?


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 12:53:23 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Sony branded electronics are always more costly. Sony is not the sole manufacturer of blu ray players. There will be plenty of cheap off brand blu ray players in the future as well.

The point of Sony not being the only manufacturer is not the issue - its that Sony owns the licensing rights, and each other manufacturer has to pay Sony royalties if they want to be in the BD business. That amounts to higher prices - not because you are getting a better product for your money, because you are just depositing more money into Sony's pocket for licensing.

quote:
What will the difference amount to then? a $150 player versus a $100 player? will you still scream about the $50 then like $100 now?

Well it obviously does make a difference, now doesnt it? HD-DVD will have bottom of the barrel dvd players too that are half the cost of Toshiba HD-DVD players, and yes they will sell. THey will do the same thing as most of the more expensive ones - but you pay for the brand name and reliability. Many people buy the $30 DVD players today because they are seen as disposable items, that are easily replaced. Expensive electronics are not popular due to the relibabilty and having to pay to buy another.

Ive never seen a cheapo dvd player that would not play store bought DVD movies. I have a feeling you're pissed that a cheapo DVD player wont play burned copies, or divx movies, or something like that. And that's to be expected.

You really arent making any valid points for the BD camp. All your saying is that "spending another $50 - 100 isnt that much". No, $50 isnt that much, but why spend it for no reason. In case you havent learned by now, pricing plays a huge issue - the PS3 for example. What a blowup that was. "its so much better than the xbox 360 because...." and yet no one cares! Because no one wanted to spend another $200-300 for that little bit extra.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 1:06:56 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
More space, higher bitrate, lossless sound, future expandability to even higher resolutions, more content on a single disc.


All those future scenarios are find and dandy...but I wont pay for something now, that we may or may not need in the future. Also, all those things that you just stated are in result to the extra (currently unneeded) space on the disc correct? So that triple layer 51GB HD disc that is available would not serve that purpose if needed? And increasing the layer sizes on a disc if needed still wont serve the purpose? The point is that if any of that NEEDED to be done, which it currently does NOT, then they could make changes to the disc and it would still play in the HD-DVD Player.

So again, how exactly is the Blue Ray better in quality than the HD-DVD ... or is now that its better because of the future...even though it took years for the regular DVD to catch on.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: 0
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 1:19:29 PM , Rating: 3
By the time 1600p comes out, BD will be a thing of the past anyway. There is no such thing as trying to "future proof" yourself in electronics...and thats why people dont want to pay more today, for tomorrow.

Computers, DVD players, Stereo's, etc....everything's life expectancy is decreasing...and people are now just getting worried that they ahve to make the switch to digital tv from analog. Do you really think the average person gives two craps about 1080i, 1080p.....much less 1600p? DO you think the average person even knows what the 480, 720, 180 numbers are and what bitrates even are? Cmon man, open your eyes to the real world....not the geek-dom you call your home.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 1:30:14 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, more power to you. Thats the freedom of choice, and its die-hards like you that keep Sony in business for overcharging with marketing gimmicks.

But hey, as you said, thats American Capitalism...and its also people like that you are driving down the prices of the products that are actually worth the dollar being spent on them....even if you dont consider the average American consumer a smart person.

But then again, we dont call our dollar a "loonie". Go figure.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: 0
RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 2:45:08 PM , Rating: 2
Please stop spreading misinformation and FUD. I know you will still not be rated down for it because everybody here wants to believe it's true, but information that is factually incorrect should not be promoted on a site such as this.

Brandon


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/29/2007 1:02:48 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, that's a good idea, wait for 51gb HD-DVD discs, buy a new player to support them, double dip on all your currently owned discs for lossless audio ones... that's sounds like a fun future and great justification for saving $100 on a player. How about you support the people who got it right the first time for your money instead of this perpetual revisionist milk-me-to-death crap. Jesus H Christ.


RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 2:38:21 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Also, DT is not a congregation of ProHD-DVD people. Its a congregation of people in which their is no majority of fanboyism for Sony or MS


I hope you were saying that tongue-in-cheek and don't actually believe that.

Brandon


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/28/2007 11:46:11 PM , Rating: 2
$100 vs $200 player price... whoopity doo when forty movies at $20 a pop is $800. That's where most of your money is going to go, the movies. So yeah, you'll really save a lot of money there with HD-DVD, and get no audio upgrade over standard DVDs to boot. Sounds like the better investment for sure?


RE: The rest of the story
By DigitalFreak on 11/28/2007 2:11:18 PM , Rating: 2
You just replied to yourself, dickweed


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 2:26:58 PM , Rating: 1
Have some kind of a tourettes problem? thanks so much for your valuable contribution to the conversation.


RE: The rest of the story
By blaster5k on 11/28/2007 12:06:07 PM , Rating: 3
I'm not understanding how HD-DVD is subpar. The perceivable video quality is basically the same with both formats. The HD-DVD players have more features in some ways (ie. internet connection, picture in picture commentary). If you're thinking it's subpar because the lower end players output 1080i, you've got to be kidding me. That gets deinterlaced just fine on 1080p displays and you don't lose any quality.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: 0
RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 1:09:55 PM , Rating: 3
Relax man, its not all that big of a deal.

In the end, we all know that BR is technically superior, but is it worth it to most people? not if it remains double the price. For most people it is about watching high def movies. Both play the same movie at the same video quality. BR needs to be as cheap as HD-DVD.

Flash forward maybe 1 year from now. Lets say low end HD-DVD are available for $50, and low end BR are $100. Now, dont think of yourself, think of the 95% of the population that only wants to watch high def movies. They don't care about lossless audio (most people cant tell the difference) They don't care about extra storage, they want to watch movies in high def.

What do you think they will buy? A $50 player or a $100 player? The answer is easy, the cheap one wins.

If Sony and the BRG want to win they will absolutely HAVE to lower prices to match (again, not for you, or audiophiles or tech junkies, but for average consumers that are 95% of the purchasing market). PS/3 gave and early head start but in the end it will be the cheap player that wins the format war.


RE: The rest of the story
By mcnabney on 11/28/2007 12:14:18 PM , Rating: 2
That rant is rating higher than yours


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 12:17:41 PM , Rating: 3
Ratings are meaningless on what amounts to an HD-DVD fansite. You could write the most eloquent post in the history of the internet, but if it's pro blu-ray, it gets rated down on dailytech, simple as that.


RE: The rest of the story
By Spuke on 11/28/2007 12:37:57 PM , Rating: 2
Nope. Most of the BR arguments are rated down because many don't make much logical sense and fail to incorporate reality. That reality is that Joe Six Pack (J6P), the representative of the marketplace, is what determines the market, not the geek. If one of you would recognize that factoid, your posts would not get rated down.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 12:45:31 PM , Rating: 2
Nope right back at you. It is an established fact that hd-dvd fanboys dominate this forum almost entirely.

Cheering on the marketplace for a poorer product winning out doesn't make sense to me. I guess thats good old american capitalism at work.


RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 1:01:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I guess thats good old american capitalism at work.

Yes it is. Supply & Demand. Price & Cost. Need & Want. Majority & Minority. They really are simple economic principals. Just because you dont understand them, or like them, doesn't make them any less real. Capitalism works because then we dont have people like you shoving overpriced products down our throats that we dont need and not giving us the option for something else....Communist at its best.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 1:42:09 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah it's working well, thats why your dollar is in the toilet.


RE: The rest of the story
By FITCamaro on 11/28/2007 2:22:59 PM , Rating: 2
Holy shit this is hilarious. I'm with you mdog.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 2:34:13 PM , Rating: 1
Hey theres one of those redneck beer swilling walmart customers now.


RE: The rest of the story
By FITCamaro on 11/29/2007 9:25:08 AM , Rating: 2
Hey. There's one of those liberal pussies who think we all need to think like they do now.

I never shop at Walmart. Ever. I have one right next to me. I go out of my way not to shop there.

And beer sucks. I don't drink anything that's under 60 Proof. So thats rum, tequila, vodka, etc.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/29/2007 9:34:29 AM , Rating: 2
You Americans are funny. The world boils down into two categories for you. Capatalist conservative American = good, rest of the world = bad.

Actualy the last time I bothered to vote I voted conservative. I don't bother now because elections are a farce, choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

I think maybe next time I'll vote for the green party, if you are going to throw votes away may as well do it with style.

John Wayne must be so proud of you. Rum tequila and vodka oh my. Such a manly man.


RE: The rest of the story
By slacker57 on 11/28/2007 1:47:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nope right back at you. It is an established fact that hd-dvd fanboys dominate this forum almost entirely.


Oh, yeah?! Well, your momma is an HD-DVD fanboy! :P

Seriously, though, I think the first couple exchanges were a worthwhile discussion, but the last 20 or so needed to have been left on the grade school playground.


RE: The rest of the story
By Spuke on 11/28/2007 4:02:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nope right back at you. It is an established fact that hd-dvd fanboys dominate this forum almost entirely.
Show me some statistics that back up these claims. If you can't, then it's just your opinion. BTW, constantly repeating your opinion doesn't make it a fact.


RE: The rest of the story
By SirLucius on 11/28/2007 4:22:41 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Show me some statistics that back up these claims. If you can't, then it's just your opinion. BTW, constantly repeating your opinion doesn't make it a fact.


C'mon, like we all keep stats on the percentage of posts supporting HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray or putting down HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray. All you have to do is read the comments for HD-DVD/Blu-ray articles here to see. The majority of DT readers are in favor of HD-DVD while some are just anti-Sony anything. Read through the comments on this article alone to see. If somebody says something remotely anti-HD-DVD they get pounced upon.

Almost every article related to Sony has at least one post belittling Sony, no matter whether what they did was good or bad. It's really getting rather old.


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/28/2007 4:43:20 PM , Rating: 2
Not everyone that supports/prefers HD-DVD to Bluray is a "fan boy" just so ya knows... For instance I personally greatly perfer HD-DVD because toshiba has ensured that there is a line of HD-DVD products that are affordable to me (while also offering higher end products for total enthusiests as well).

If BD group was able to come out with a player approching the pricing of what I can get out of HD-DVD format I would start contemplating picking one up. Until that happens, I'm pro-hd dvd. I'm guessing you'll find this is true for most HD-DVD supporters. We're frugle, we see a product that offers the same HD quality as BD at a significantly better price point.


RE: The rest of the story
By Spuke on 11/28/2007 5:26:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All you have to do is read the comments for HD-DVD/Blu-ray articles here to see.
Right. Your opinion, his opinion, none of it is fact. Perception is NOT reality and unless you have those statistics, it's just opinion.

Let me tell you a secret. If Walmart sold Bluray players for $98 on that particular Friday, I would've bought that instead. I really don't care which one wins, as long as I don't have to pay out the butthole for it. And right now Bluray = too expensive for me. Also, Bluray = too expensive for the marketplace (Joe Common Bubba).


RE: The rest of the story
By SirLucius on 11/28/2007 5:37:03 PM , Rating: 2
So you are seriously saying that the majority of people that comment on articles relating to Blu-ray/HD-DVD do not own/support/want HD-DVD to win the format war?


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 8:14:20 PM , Rating: 1
Take a look around. Better yet go try making a pro blu-ray post and see what happens to it then come back and tell me about what an enlightened and objective group of individuals populate this forum.

It is as hd-dvd biased as it gets. Every single article on the subject unleashes a torrent of anti bluray hate, you don't have to go far, just read this thread. If you can't see it you are blind.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 1:11:02 PM , Rating: 2
"Nope. Most of the BR arguments are rated down because many don't make much logical sense and fail to incorporate reality. That reality is that Joe Six Pack (J6P), the representative of the marketplace, is what determines the market, not the geek. If one of you would recognize that factoid, your posts would not get rated down."

True to a large extent. I wish I hadn't already posted so I could rate you up now- LOL


RE: The rest of the story
By SirLucius on 11/28/2007 2:35:36 PM , Rating: 2
So what I've gathered from the pro HD-DVD side of things is that HD-DVD should win the format war because despite being inferior to Blu-ray technically speaking, the majority of people (who don't really know what they're buying) are cheap and don't want to pay for the more advanced tech.

Mmkay...


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 2:54:40 PM , Rating: 1
That is only the perpetuated lie by those that support it so vehemently. You don't fight tooth and nail to support something sub par because you simply like to cheer for the underdog. The people that get frothing mad about hd-dvd support it because they hate sony, fear sony, and think that all of a sudden if hd-dvd were to disapear, sony would give this big muahaha laugh and proclaim blu ray discs are now $100 each.

It is the only way to explain the lunacy behind actively cheering for something that offers far less.


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/28/2007 4:45:51 PM , Rating: 2
Could you explain "Technically Inferior" to me? How does Blu ray offer a supperior HT experience? I mean other than not offering as wide range of possible Speacial Features options (forget about trying to implement to SF package that comes with the HD-DVD Harry Potter and the order of the phonix any time soon, you need profile 2.0, that's a fact!)


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 8:18:38 PM , Rating: 1
Could you read the specs yourself and try to comprehend them? The fact that you would even argue them based on "I like the special features better" shows the exact blinders on hd-dvd worship thats so rediculous.

Who cares about a better bitrate, better sound, all that jazz the special features are where it's at, yeah.


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/29/2007 12:20:55 AM , Rating: 2
Technically speaking, how does higher bit rate equal better anything automatically? Let's compare Dinasours (PCM audio) to Transformers audio (Dolby Digital+), which one would you say is better? Turns out highdefdigest.com liked Transformers better, hmmm, wow... And video, obviously you absolutly need a high bitrate video in order to get good quality right? I mean seriously, unless you have super OMG mega pumped bitrate you don't get real HD right? Except TMNT is encoded at an extreamly low bitrate and has razer sharp video quality, one of the best transfers in my collections in fact, demo quality over all.

So, here's an education for you, conviniently it's called "specs v. reality". In reality "high bitrate" and "PCM" (v. TrueHD) is meaningless... An integrated NIC is useful on so many levels it's not even funny! Auto updates for instance! Nifty speacial features! http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zybe...


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/29/2007 9:26:36 AM , Rating: 2
If you need someone to explain that a higher bitrate is better to you then you have your blinders firmly on. Like every other hd-dvd fanboy.

I'll take a pass on reading the links to your hd-dvd sunshine up the ass pumping less is better articles too.

As to the integrated nic and special features, i have an integrated nic, on my ps3. As to special features, I didn't watch them on DVD I wont watch them on blu ray. It's all just filler, I want to see the movie in the best possible presentation.

Lastly comparing a cartoons quality via bit rate is a bit silly. Cartoons look amazing even upconverted on dvd. That's just a fact of life. Go watch the pirates movies and you'll get some idea what an amazing hd presentation is.


RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 2:48:58 PM , Rating: 2
This is perposterous. Every one of my comments will always be rated down and it has nothing to do with it beiing illogical or unrealistic. It's merely because it's not a sycophantic support post for HD DVD. Any objective, logical and fact-related post that isn't touting HD DVD as better will be rated down. Look and you'll see. It's rather sickening the mob mentality that causes people to rationalize this phenomenon away, and obviously ruins the credibility of the readers of this site on a daily basis

Brandon


RE: The rest of the story
By sweetsauce on 11/28/2007 11:28:22 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Given time blu ray will have extremely cheap players same as hd-dvd will
If theres over 4 million total sales of bd drives (ps3+standalone), why can' they make a player cheaper than HD-DVD again? Last time i checked, you don't need a cell chip in a movie player. To answer your question about supporting "second best" technology, its because some people aren't stupid enough to fall for marketing gimmicks. I know sony wants you to believe bd is the greatest thing ever, but in really they are equal formats both having advantages and disadvantages.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 12:18:57 PM , Rating: 2
"Given time blu ray will have extremely cheap players same as hd-dvd will."

The issue is that when there are $100 BR players, HD-DVD will have $50 players. and so on and so on. If Sony doent match prices BR will lose. If they do it will win, being the better technology. Its that simple really. The ball is in Sony's court.


RE: The rest of the story
By DigitalFreak on 11/28/2007 2:17:51 PM , Rating: 2
No, it comes down to who has the deeper pockets. Toshiba is loosing ass loads of $$$ on the $99 HD-DVD players. You also ever wonder why no one else is making HD-DVD stand-alone players (aside from the ultra expensive ones)? No profit in it.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 3:00:31 PM , Rating: 2
Doesnt matter if they are losing $$$ or not. In the end price will dictate the winner. I dont care of Tosh is losing money. I care that I DONT pay $400 for a high def player. I want to see a high def movie and I want to buy it when its $100 for a player. If BR could offer a better image quality it would be different, but both output at 1080p at best. That is the standard we will be living with for the next 5 years at least.


RE: The rest of the story
By blaster5k on 11/28/2007 3:54:46 PM , Rating: 2
First off, the $99 players was a retailer thing from what I've read. They were trying to clear the inventory on the old players to make way for the new. Toshiba didn't take a loss -- Walmart and Best Buy did.

Who else is there to make HD-DVD players? There are rumors of cheap Chinese-made players coming soon, but most of the other big manufacturers are in the Blu-Ray camp. There's not a huge incentive for anyone else to make a hi-def player -- Blu-Ray or HD-DVD -- because the market is still pretty minuscule. If it were closer to the size of the DVD player market, you'd see other people coming in and capitalizing on it.


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/28/2007 5:04:26 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/playerlist...

Venturer has a AD-H3 equivilent player regularly priced at ~$250 available at target right now (and walmart soon per the Venturer website). With more and more HD-DVD stand alones being sold it's going to get awfully hard for other electronics companies to keep turning a blind eye to hd-dvd when they're struggling to get BD Stand Alone players out the door.


RE: The rest of the story
By Gio6518 on 11/28/2007 11:58:53 PM , Rating: 2
are you insane Blu-ray players are selling as fast as they're being made, they dont have to have a $99 sale to dump off all the stock they could'nt sell

i'll also be rated down since it was a pro-Blu statement


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/29/2007 12:22:17 AM , Rating: 2
You're rated 2, but you're also wrong... The toshiba HD-A2 sold in one weekend what Sony's most popular stand alone BD player has sold in it's entire life time... Nice try though, way to go.


RE: The rest of the story
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 12:18:47 AM , Rating: 2
you made no sense

and further proved my point, they sold that many in one weekend cause they had a stockpile of unsold players, sony, samsung, pioneer, sharp, denon etc etc etc you get the point dont get a chance to stockpile players since theyre getting sold as fast as produced, i admit stand alones sales for blu-ray didnt take off till a couple months ago, due to the insane price, not too many people will pay the $1000 price tag which is why the PS3 was the most sought after blu-ray player up until (lets stick with Sony since you mentioned them) Sony's BDP-S300 player came out for $500, now down to $399 able to get for $349, now stand alones are selling like hot cakes


RE: The rest of the story
By Oregonian2 on 11/28/2007 2:19:53 PM , Rating: 2
You mean that the average consumer won't pay any price so that the three inch speakers in his/her TV can brilliantly perform using lossless audio? Horrors!


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/28/2007 3:29:11 PM , Rating: 2
Of course HD-DVD does offer lossless audio for audiophiles anyway.. It's called TrueHD, PCM is no better than TrueHD.... Other than getting BD fan bois all hot and bothered anyway.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD.ht...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/29/2007 12:41:17 AM , Rating: 2
Being able to do it means nothing when you've got bonus material competing for space and the 30gb disc can't fit both. Even Transformers didn't include lossless audio. Only a fraction of HD-DVD releases actually have it. And the players that Toshiba are selling don't have full lossless decoding support anyway. I don't think DTS-HD High Resolution or Master Audio can be decoded internally by the HD-A2 for example, only the Dolby formats can. The new A3 model is even worse and will transcode DD+ and TrueHD to DD @ 640, and will transcode DTS-HD/MA to DTS @ 1.5 mbps. So essentially, Toshiba's next gen vision for audio is DVD audio, and they want you to spend $1000 upgrading all your old DVDs for it. But hey, you saved $100 on that player over blu-ray, right?


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/29/2007 8:18:49 AM , Rating: 2
Except Warner has no problem integrating TrueHD with tons of innovative speacial features... Just look at Harry Potter and the Order of The Phonix "Community Screening" feature (note, no blu ray player on the market can even do this, profile 2.0 required). Mulptiple people all over the world with HD-DVD can all be invited to watch a movie with a host, once they connect to the host the movie is controlled by the host (started/paused/stopped etc). In addition there will be the usual mix of bonus videos and in movie experience (mixed hd/sd) and yet Warner still included a TrueHD track.

I think if you want to see the truth behind paramounts choice you need to consider the fact that almost no paramount HD-DVD's (except Star Trek Season One) include a TrueHD option. I think that's rather telling, paticularly since the SF's on the actual transformers movie disc aren't all that robust compared to say, my HP Goblet of Fire disc (which includes TrueHD).


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/29/2007 8:22:31 AM , Rating: 2
And yeah, I did save a bundle... For $100 I got the equivilent of what would be at least a $600/$700 BD stand alone player, considering Profile 1.1 players which lack an NIC cost $500. Can we say ouch? I sure can! Oh and please don't bring up "Playstation 3 blah blah..". Playstation 3 is a profile 1.0 player, and as far as anyone knows there are no plans to make it anything better than a 1.0 player.


RE: The rest of the story
By Gio6518 on 11/29/2007 11:58:17 PM , Rating: 2
no freakin way
there are hd-dvd players comparable to the lowest stand alone blu-ray player and its not an A2 of A3 you have to go up to an A20 at least for sound and video quality

i think that new harry potter group viewing is one of the dumbest thing ive ever heard of, but i dont like any bonus features, id prefer the best and sound quality i can get

i really hate when people say they dont care about the sound, and video, that 1080i is good enough, im sorry you cant afford better equipment, but that shouldnt be a reason to hold technology behind either


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 12:16:48 PM , Rating: 2
I am no redneck, far from it, but I dont care about lossless audio. I honestly cannot tell the difference from a super high quality setup vs a standard low price setup of decent quality. I know audiophiles like you can tell the difference but most people just don't care. I have a decent 5.1 system (actually a fairly cheap 5 year old Sony receiver) and that is all I need for my movies.

I do care about video quality, as do most people wanting high def. I also don't want to pay $400 to get 1080i output. Both play the same movie at the same video quality and that is what 95% of the consumers care about. the winner will be the lowest price and Sony has to do something about that if they are going to win.

Right now, neither BR or HD-DVD has any market share to speak of, both are tiny fractions of DVD. The first <$100 player will start to gain traction in the marketshare #'s, and then once its >$50 REAL widespread adoption will occur, just like it did with DVD many years ago.

Right now, it doesnt look like Sony is interested in matching prices, and if they dont they will lose in the end.

Why? Because even though BR may be technically superior, 95% of everyone wants it cheap, and 5% maybe less wants that lossless audio, or greater storage potential.

Any HD-DVD is enough to play any movie, the only reason for more storage would be so you can add several hours of extra features, bloopers and commentary - again, mst people dont care at all about that, they just watch the movie and then return it.

Lets also not forget multilayering... HD-DVD has already approved 3 layer spec, and a 3 layer HD-DVD does have more storage than a 2 layer BR.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 12:24:36 PM , Rating: 2
And four layer blu ray (which is already in development by hitachi) has more than three layer hddvd, or four layer hddvd for that matter would. 100gb as a matter of fact.

Despite all this talk of what people want being cheap, blu ray continues to outsell. Even in the midst of the $98 player, they still outsell. Every single time the so called trump card for hd-dvd is released it falls flat. It was transformers, still outsold, the $98 player, still outsold.

In the rest of the world outside the USA there isn't even a debate.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 1:15:40 PM , Rating: 2
yep, you are right, layer per layer BR is always more storage.

BR sales are winning right now today becasue of the PS/3, but in reality, neither HD or BR has any marketshare to speak of, both are small fractions of DVD.

The average joe consumer will jump on the bandwagon when they can get a super cheap player for $50 and watch a high def movie. That is when the war will be won, and Sony had damn well better understand that fact or they will lose.

Its pretty simple really, BR is better tech, so if they match price, or at least relaly close,they will win, if they remain double HD-DVD's price they will lose, regardless of what makes sense to you personally.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 1:19:04 PM , Rating: 1
Saying they are double HD-DVD's price is foolish. If you count the ultra low end A3, which no one should. Comparable players quality and feature wise are still very close in price. An HD-A30 is $399 here, the ps3 is $399.

There is a long way for both of them to go before you will be getting high quality players for $100.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 1:45:49 PM , Rating: 3
"If you count the ultra low end A3, which no one should"

I think your totally missing the point here. This format war isn't about you, or audiophiles or tech-junkies. Its about the average person that only wants to watch and HD movie. They don't care about storage, or lossless audio, they want it, but wont buy it until its cheap.

All of your arguments are valid, but out of context. The winner will be the one to get to <$50 players whether you like it or not. If Sony can match price they will win. If they cant, they wont.

You dont need to convince me, or the other readers here at Anandtech/Dailytech. You need to convince the hundreds of millions of consumers out there that are waiting for cheap players.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 2:32:38 PM , Rating: 1
Your trying to convince me of this magic number right now. In fact thats what people have been doing for a long time now.

First it was $200. $200 was the magic number at which everyone would adopt hd-dvd and sales would skyrocket. Well, $200 came and went, $98 came and went, now were at $50. So when players are $50 we will finaly have a winner.

The line keeps getting moved each time it's proven wrong and Blu Ray continues to outsell or even increase it's lead. You will have to excuse me for not having much faith in the $50 prediction as well.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 3:08:23 PM , Rating: 2
first off I never said $200 was a point. and when that $100 sale went on, they sold like crazy. What the hell are you even talking about?

Look, I am not pushing for one side or the other like a fanboy, I really don't care... All I am saying is that if Sony wants to win this war, they have to compete by matching the price. Its NOT about what you or I want to see happen, it is about the reality of economics and what will win the format war... Cheapness

I totally understand why you might want to pay more and get a BR player, but you need to understand most people don't, and wont, what are advantages to you, are irrelevant to most people. The movie output is equal, lower price wins.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 4:18:59 PM , Rating: 2
You haven't been following the subject I guess.

Back when players all cost over $500 the HD-DVD camp claimed $200 was the magic number just about everywhere you looked. When players reached $200 they would achieve mass adoption and it would all be over.

But it wasn't the A2 dropped to below $200 and mass adoption did not happen. In fact Blu ray continued to sell as well if not better. They had the $98 sale and fanboys proclaimed this is it, things are about to turn around. But they didn't in fact blu ray's sales lead grew.

The point is all these price point steps along the way are not making a difference, every one comes, and it goes, and HD-DVD still undersells.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 5:33:55 PM , Rating: 3
I have been following it for at least 8 months now... I don't know who this "HD-DVD Camp" you have invented is, and prices never dropped below $200. What happened was the A2 was obsoleted and a few retailers got rid of the last inventory for $99. Those units that were left sold out quickly that weekend (of course).

The replacement product the A3 is just now dropped to $200 this past week and only at a few retailers, so the scenario you have created in your last post does not yet exist.

I think you are kind of just a little bit in denial here, but whatever, time will tell.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 8:22:08 PM , Rating: 2
The A2 dropped below $200 before the firesale blowout. There were plenty of little joyous articles about it right here on dailytech, filled with cheers from hd supporters claiming this was finaly the end of blu ray.

Denial denial denial, that is the calling card of the hd-dvd fanboys from start to finish.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/29/2007 10:11:55 AM , Rating: 2
uhh... yes, when I said and was part of my point "What happened was the A2 was obsoleted and a few retailers got rid of the last inventory for $99. " thats exactly what that meant. Are you past the point of even reading and comprehending other posts now?


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/29/2007 12:53:23 AM , Rating: 2
In the meantime, you'll need to convince hundreds of millions of people why HD-DVD is worth rebuying all their DVDs for, even with cheap players. Blu-ray actually provides a video AND audio update, with players that are actually able to decode it. I guarantee you that people will figure this out via research and choose blu-ray for a small premium. It simply isn't a full upgrade with HD-DVD. And regardless of whether they will actually be able to tell the difference in their setup, they are not going to go with the safe bet in a situation where they must justify rebuying what they already own.


RE: The rest of the story
By DrKlahn on 11/29/2007 1:52:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

Blu-ray actually provides a video AND audio update, with players that are actually able to decode it.


And how does HD DVD not? The Blu Ray consortium has zero mandatory audio codecs, which is why you see so many studios resorting to using PCM. PCM is not a benefit when you have DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD which are both lossless and both take up far less space and bandwidth. HD DVD has TrueHD as a mandatory lossless audio codec, which means any studio can use it and be assured it will work.

quote:
It simply isn't a full upgrade with HD-DVD


What isn't upgraded? The video quality is as good as Blu Ray. It supports lossless audio. It supports Dolby Digital Plus which Blu Ray to this point has not. It supports interactive features not yet available to Blu Ray. So again, what isn't upgraded?


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/29/2007 4:38:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And how does HD DVD not? The Blu Ray consortium has zero mandatory audio codecs, which is why you see so many studios resorting to using PCM. PCM is not a benefit when you have DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD which are both lossless and both take up far less space and bandwidth. HD DVD has TrueHD as a mandatory lossless audio codec, which means any studio can use it and be assured it will work.


Thank god for PCM, I say. In my opinion, the DTS/DD duality is confusing to consumers and a needless complexity that increases the chances of something going wrong. I have already seen numerous issues popping up with these new compression formats. It should have been discarded this generation as blu-ray had the capacity to do it. For the sake of people's legacy equipment, it wasn't. Bandwidth is not an issue. In fact, decompressing something requires processing overhead and added hardware cost.

Secondly, support for lossless audio hasn't resulted in the majority of discs featuring it for HD-DVD. Oftentimes, bonus material is fighting for space on the strapped HD-DVD disc, and a lossy track gets used. So supporting it doesn't matter when it isn't resulting in most discs using it. DD+ is most often used, but it can be 640kpbs or 1.5mbps. 640kpbs is the same as Dolby Digital on DVD and 1.5mbps was a common bitrate for DTS on DVD. So you can see how I might feel shortchanged when upgrading all of my discs to "next-gen" HD-DVD.


RE: The rest of the story
By DrKlahn on 11/29/2007 5:52:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Thank god for PCM


Yes lets trumpet using no compression for more space usage and less bandwidth for no increase in quality. Note that not all Blu Ray movies use 50GB media (most are still on single layer discs). PCM is a needless waste.

quote:
In my opinion, the DTS/DD duality is confusing to consumers and a needless complexity that increases the chances of something going wrong.


It has caused no problems on DVD. It has yet to cause any issues I am aware of on either of the new formats.

quote:
It should have been discarded this generation as blu-ray had the capacity to do it.


So for no perceivable quality difference vs. the 2 lossless codecs studios should have to swallow the extra expense of a 50GB disc to head off a non existent issue (should PCM put it over the single layer capacity).

quote:
Bandwidth is not an issue.


I'll agree with that. Blu Ray hasn't seen a problem with PCM and MPEG-2. Which is a worst case scenario bandwidth wise.

quote:
In fact, decompressing something requires processing overhead and added hardware cost.


Not an issue with todays electronics. Video takes more horsepower than compressed sound.

quote:
Secondly, support for lossless audio hasn't resulted in the majority of discs featuring it for HD-DVD.


It's becoming more and more prevalent. For example here are some discs I have recently bought:

Star Trek Season 1 - TrueHD
Transformers - DD+
Letters From Iwo Jima - TrueHD
The Matrix - True HD
Flags of our Fathers - DD+
300 - TrueHD

Discs I am buying:
Blade Runner FC - TrueHD
2001 - TrueHD
Clockwork Orange - TrueHD
HP box set - All TrueHD
Battlestar Galactica S1 - TrueHD

quote:
Oftentimes, bonus material is fighting for space on the strapped HD-DVD disc, and a lossy track gets used.


Incorrect. Studies proven that consumers view 2 disc editions as "value added" (personally I don't care either way). Add to that the cost for 2 DL HD DVD's is cheaper than 1 DL Blu Ray and the only real reason studios will put things on a single disc is that they don't need 2.

quote:
DD+ is most often used, but it can be 640kpbs or 1.5mbps. 640kpbs is the same as Dolby Digital on DVD and 1.5mbps was a common bitrate for DTS on DVD. So you can see how I might feel shortchanged when upgrading all of my discs to "next-gen" HD-DVD.


Not really. When you are talking about perceptual coders such as DD, DTS, and DD+ bit rate is never an apples to apples. Whether 1.5Mb/s DD+ sounds better than DTS at 1.5Mb/s is completely dependent on how good the underlying algorithm is. Also one can debate whether a 1.5Mb lossy codec that encodes at 24bit/96KHz sounds better than a lossless codec using 16bit/44KHz.

I'll buy into Blu Ray after the holidays for the titles I want that aren't on HD DVD. But it has nothing do with any perceived advantage the format has.


RE: The rest of the story
By DrKlahn on 11/28/2007 2:53:21 PM , Rating: 2
Why on earth would you not count the A3? It plays HD DVD's beautifully, upscales SD DVD's well and has a reasonable cost. If your opinion is based on the ridiculous notion of 1080i being somehow inferior, please go do some real research on the subject rather than regurgitating marketing PR. As a poster above stated, any marginally competent display will have no problem deinterlacing back to 1080p.

As far as 100GB Blu Ray discs, the last I read on that subject was that they had no interest in it for movies. Triple layer HD DVD, however was ratified by the DVD steering commitee for development for home use. This also includes the move to 17GB layers, which could mean that future dual layer discs could see a modest bump to 34GB. The newer layers will also increase the bandwidth of the format due to the increase in bit density (unless they intentionally slow the rotational speed for some reason). Another interesting note is that the only BD backer to actually vote on TL 51 HD DVD was Disney, who has long stated they desire extra capacity for their films.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: The rest of the story
By tmouse on 11/28/2007 11:51:54 AM , Rating: 2
You still are missing the point, whether you like it or not most people are still considering their first purchase of a HD TV. I imagine 720's will sell very well until they are not made. Most do not have state of the art sound systems; a lot still use the speakers in the sets or "entertainment systems" which are not much better than the cheapo PC speakers. The mass market group will always be 1-2 generations of cutting edge. If someone wants to speed this up they have to be willing to hurt quite a bit and Sony has NEVER taken this route. They have had some major successes like the Trinitron but they have also had their betamaxs. They consistently charge HUGE license fees which prevents entry of competitors (which is good for them) but also drastically slows the entry of a standard. In the past they were the main player in many electronics areas but today there is a lot more competition. I have said it before the history of electronics is littered with the bodies of technically superior products which were not smartly marketed. Sony should have taken a hit at the start, they had the movie distributors, they hurt the PS3 with the delay and now they may have hurt the bluray standard if HD can make major sales this season. In the short run price always determines the winner it may stink but that the way it is. To the average user extra storage capacity is a minimal factor to price and people simply do not think of the PS3 as a DVD player/game combination. People looking for a game console think this is a lot for a gaming platform, people looking for a DVD player probably will not even walk to the game section. In the end they may even spend MORE by buying the two at different times but they will still feel better on each purchase whether it is logical or not.


RE: The rest of the story
By masher2 (blog) on 11/28/2007 11:39:17 AM , Rating: 2
> "But I won't spend a penny upgrading until one format "wins". "

Then you'll never spend a penny. Both formats are going to be here forever. In the long run, multi-format players will predominate; HD-DVD will be the format of choice for most movies,and BD will be popular for longer movies, multivolume sets, and data storage.


RE: The rest of the story
By mcnabney on 11/28/2007 12:07:54 PM , Rating: 2
That will only happen (as it really should) if dual format players become standard. Kind of like how A/V receivers can handle both Dolby Digital and DTS. Two competing formats that are both used by the consumer.


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/28/2007 6:26:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If Blue-Ray is outselling HD-DVD 2 to 1 they need a cheap stand alone player fast to put the nail in the coffin. If they were to offer one for $99 like HD-DVD has then more people would pick them up.


You're sort of failing to see why blu-ray has so much industry support and multiple brands making players. Consumers don't like proprietary formats and Toshiba as their only choice. Additionally, industry doesn't see a point in selling something if it isn't making money. Selling at a price that is losing $100 or more per player sold with no way to recoup that cost on software sales like Sony does with the PS3 is not really an appealing business opportunity. So essentially, your post makes about as much sense as me saying that Toyota would sell a lot more cars at half the current cost. True as that may be, it'll get people to buy en-masse, and then Toyota will go out of business with the losses. It makes zero sense, but man, what an amazing deal!

The $99 player by HD-DVD was also a one day sale for remaining supply on old stock, so it didn't put Toshiba in the aforementioned situation. I really hate seeing that number thrown around like an MSRP right now, but I guess that was the point of the sale: to artificially enhance the perceived price disparity between blu-ray and HD-DVD. Now you've got a bunch of idiots running around forums pissed off at blu-ray out of impatience, cheapness, and stupidity, for not doing the same.


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/28/2007 7:32:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You're sort of failing to see why blu-ray has so much industry support and multiple brands making players. Consumers don't like proprietary formats and Toshiba as their only choice.


How is BD any less propriatary? Yes they currently have more OEMs, but as Samsung et. al. decide it's worth their while to make HD-DVD players that *actually sell* v. BD players with nice profit margins that sit on store shelves you'll start seeing more HD-DVD selection on the market.


RE: The rest of the story
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 7:47:52 PM , Rating: 2
Are you really trying to tell people here that the words "Sony", "Blue Ray", and "Proprietary Format" dont belong in the same sentence?

Look at the track record - everything from the major failure of the BetaMax (due to price and format control), to their proprietary versions of their MP3 players...its always been a common failure with them.

Hell, game developers don't even WANT to work with the PS3 because the proprietary format coding that needs to be done will not work for anything else in the industry!

Sure there are several OEM's right now....just as there were several OEM's in the MiniDisc failure. The MiniDisc had so much potential - a smaller, protected disc that served the same purpose as a cd - but due to Sony owning the proprietary format and charging their licensing fees, not a single record company outside of Sony Recording would even touch it.

So please, inform me somewhere in the past, that Sony's track record of formats has proven to be a success.


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/29/2007 1:16:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So please, inform me somewhere in the past, that Sony's track record of formats has proven to be a success.


CD-ROM with Philips? Pushing DVD with the PS2? UMD games with the PSP?

quote:
Are you really trying to tell people here that the words "Sony", "Blue Ray", and "Proprietary Format" dont belong in the same sentence?


You're kidding right? Toshiba is all alone, the only one making HD-DVD players, and BRA, a JOINT DEVELOPMENT between Sony, Philips, Panasonic, Samsung, LG, and more, are the "proprietary" ones? Did you even know that BRA was pushing blue-lasers while the rest of the incompetent consortium wanted to milk old equipment and create a red-laser HD-DVD format? This is ignorant viral Sony-hate at its finest: selective history and terrible analogies. You've obviously failed to do even a basic amount of research beyond what other people tell you. For shame, and what a waste of time.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 9:37:35 AM , Rating: 3
"At this point I think a substancially cheaper standalone BR player would pretty much close this deal."

Yes it would... If price were equal, BR would easily win the format war. However, in the real world it IS Sony and therefore overpriced to rediculousness.

Both BR and HD-DVD use the exact same blue laser from the exact same vendor - and it is the only expensive part that separates it from regular DVD's. Why then is BR so much more expensive? Sony.


RE: The rest of the story
By Chaser on 11/28/2007 9:41:07 AM , Rating: 2
But what of Panasonic's, Pioneer's, and Samsung's BR player pricing?


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 9:45:40 AM , Rating: 3
All expensive due to them having to pay Sony's royalties. BR is just way more expensive and that will kill the deal unless they can match HD-DVD's price. Once HD-DVD goes under $100 they will start to sell in mass quantities, and when its under $50 widesread adotion will occur. If Sony doesn't match, we have another betamax on our hands.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 4:58:18 PM , Rating: 2
I see alot of talk about these evil sony royalties without any proof or source as to just how much they are in any way.

I for one would like to see some kind of source that actually explains what if anything these so called royalties cost, aside from the standard sony is evil and charges horrible royalties hearsay.


RE: The rest of the story
By Spuke on 11/28/2007 5:33:52 PM , Rating: 3
"Here's your sign."

http://tinyurl.com/ypvpc7


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 6:44:32 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks... and ouch. $30 per unit is freegin huge!!! Imagine a company that sells 1 million units, and then has to fork over $30,000,000.00 to Sony. I used to work for Palm and I remember they dropped Chapura pocket mirror sync software for a lesser in house design, and pocket mirror only cost 50 cents per unit.


RE: The rest of the story
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 8:24:42 PM , Rating: 2
$30 may seem huge for a 50 dollar item, for a $400 player it's not so huge. I would expect that rate should be reduced when demand increases for players in general and overall prices of the units drop.


RE: The rest of the story
By Locutus465 on 11/28/2007 9:04:54 PM , Rating: 2
Demand won't increase very much with already cheap HD-DVD players (toshiba and the currently one other 3rd party).... When sales for HD-DVD increases and BD stand alone players stay static... I'm thinking you'll start seeing samsung et al jumping the bd only ship.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 9:57:03 PM , Rating: 2
It is huge, way huge, if you don't think so, you obviously have never been in manufacturing. Every cent on the BOM helps reduce cost. $30 is rediculous.


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/28/2007 6:35:16 PM , Rating: 2
By the time HD-DVD gets to $100 MSRP, blu-ray will be at $200. You're also forgetting the importance of exclusive titles. There's no point in buying anything at any price when you can't get most of your favorite movies on it. That will plague both formats for a long enough time to erase the large price disparity. You're also forgetting that Toshiba is forsaking industry and multi-brand manufacturer support by selling its players for a loss. Will they sell more? Sure. Will it get all of BRA's manufacturers to suddenly jump ship into a place where they'll start losing money? Not likely.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 6:51:29 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, I have not forgotten that. All the more reason people are waiting. I am definetely not going to spend $200 on either format now while there are not many movies. $100 I can deal with.

As for pricing. its all chicken and egg. Not many movies now, and wont be too many until more player are in use. More players wont be in use until more movies are out and players are cheap. The media companies sure aren't going to take the leap, it will be up to the player manufacturers to lower prices to promote adoption. Toshiba is likely going to do that... I hope Sony does too, otherwise they cant compete. Its not a new idea to them... they have been selling every PS3 at a major loss in hopes of making it back on game sales. They will need to do the same with BR if they want it to win.


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/28/2007 11:36:12 PM , Rating: 2
And you always have to remember that with the PS3, Sony can recoup losses from game and accessory sales. A Samsung or Philips or Panasonic blu-ray player can't do the same. If they sell below cost, they're losing money and that's that. As long as Blu-ray continues to outsell HD-DVD three to one, there is zero reason for blu-ray to change its business strategy. BRA companies will continue to steadily drop prices and maintain a for-profit model. The "race to $100" is an emotional invention from HD-DVD fans that fails to take numerous complexities seriously.

750k sounds like a cause for celebration, but in actuality it is an arbitrary number that would look rather measly if compared to blu-ray player counts or worse, dvd player counts. Also, I'm not sure if I saw a similar DT article when blu-ray hit 1 million. Or 2 million. Or 3 million. Or 4 million. Should tell you a bit about the atmosphere here. DT apparently wants the war to drag on until we get 15gb recordables and rebuy all our movies with no audio upgrade over standard dvd. Hooray?


RE: The rest of the story
By Suomynona on 11/28/2007 9:49:34 AM , Rating: 2
I think it's more that Toshiba et al. are more willing to sell their HD-DVD players at a loss to try to make up marketshare. The manufacturers making BR players don't have the same pressure on them, so there's no need for them to lose money.


RE: The rest of the story
By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 9:53:35 AM , Rating: 2
You may be right, but in the end it wont matter. They both play the same movie at the same quality, so the cheaper one wins, period. BR has an early advantage with the PS/3, but that will dissappear once prices drop and mainstream people start to buy it.


RE: The rest of the story
By blaster5k on 11/28/2007 10:20:37 AM , Rating: 2
It's not clear that Toshiba is actually selling their players at a loss. When retailers were selling HD-A2s off at the $100 price point, I'm sure someone was losing money. At $200, I'm not sure anyone is losing. Toshiba streamlined their players a lot with the 3rd generation to reduce cost.

As far as Blu-Ray, PS3 is still being sold at a loss. I don't think it's as a big a loss as it was initially though. I doubt the other BR standalone manufacturers are happy about being undercut by PS3, but they don't seem to be aggressively pricing to counter it either.


RE: The rest of the story
By rudy on 11/28/2007 3:28:13 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps they don't want to cause sony actually wants you to buy a PS3 even if you only intend to use it for movies. This gives them other sources of money through the PS3 should you use online services or decide you do want to rent or buy a game some time.


RE: The rest of the story
By DrKlahn on 11/28/2007 10:25:47 AM , Rating: 3
The PS3 is not the panacea for Blu Ray that Sony would have us believe. Spider Man 3 was the best selling Blu Ray title with a first week total of 130,000 units. With an installed base of 3 million PS3's in North America (at the time of Spidey's release) the attach rate is likely very low. Even speculating as low as 1 in 10 standalone and PS3 movie watchers picked up the title, the attach rate for the PS3 looks to be around 3%. If you consider the numbers are likely higher for standalone players (what else are they purchased for after all) then the attach rate could be even lower.

In my opinion banking on the PS3 as a vehicle to push a movie format was a mistake. Many people simply don't identify with a video game console as a movie player. And the simple reality is that in any household with more than one person a video game system is not going to be allowed to tie up the primary viewing room. And once you've taken it out of that room the chances it will serve as a movie player or even be hooked up to an HD set are much lower.


RE: The rest of the story
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 10:43:24 AM , Rating: 2
The only problem with your analysis is that you're only including week 1 sales for your adoption rate. That doesn't mean that the adoption rate for blu-ray is 3%, it just means the adoption rate for release week is 3%. I'm sure Spiderman 3 has sold tens of thousands of copies since then. And I'd even bet that Ratatouille has had a higher adoption rate than Spidey 3.

Brandon


RE: The rest of the story
By DrKlahn on 11/28/2007 11:26:30 AM , Rating: 2
But the first week numbers are generally the strongest. Sales numbers are obviously always growing. But the movie collector usually goes out and gets the disc within the first week of it going on sale. So though there won't be a concrete data set to pull from you can look at the first week numbers and at least get an idea of what's going on. With an installed base of 3.2 million (players+PS3 at the time of Spidey's release) and sales of 130,000 does not paint a good picture for PS3 movie adoption no matter what spin you apply.

I didn't find data for Ratatouille, but I do know that both Cars and Pirates were disappointing sales wise. Don't get me wrong, Blu Ray is still at present leading in software sales. My main point is that the PS3 is not helping adoption nearly as much as Blu Ray backers would have us believe.


RE: The rest of the story
By BansheeX on 11/28/2007 6:45:00 PM , Rating: 2
That's because the PS3 itself hasn't done as well as Sony anticipated. It's going to take longer than it did with the PS2 and DVD because the PS3 debuted at a much higher price than the PS2 and has more competition. Mark my words, by the time people actually have the incentive to rebuy all their DVDs, the PS3 will be less than $300 and selling at a far faster pace than it is now. It will have as much of an influence as the PS2 did. This whole conversation about current numbers is all masturbatory in light of the fact that high-def is less of an upgrade to DVD than DVD was to VHS. It's going to be a while for consumers to care, regardless of price.


RE: The rest of the story
By DrKlahn on 11/29/2007 2:07:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It will have as much of an influence as the PS2 did.


Well I agree with that since the PS2 had a minuscule impact on DVD.

quote:
his whole conversation about current numbers is all masturbatory..


Well I find them relevant in the context of a discussion where the PS3 is touted to be a major factor in Blu Ray adoption. With 3 million PS3's and the best selling title on the format moving 130,000 in it's first week it's simple logic that the number of PS3's being used to play movies is very, very small.


RE: The rest of the story
By Chaser on 11/28/2007 10:44:47 AM , Rating: 2
Considering that standalone sales are markedly lower for Blue Ray players it's safe to say that Higher Def disk sales and rental rates would reveal this "pancrea".


RE: The rest of the story
By Supa on 11/28/2007 8:06:48 PM , Rating: 2
3.7 millions US, or 3.7 millions worldwide? The HD DVD player sales figure is for US only.


RE: The rest of the story
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 2:28:21 AM , Rating: 2
MY TWO CENTS - 11/29/07 - by Digital Bits editor Bill Hunt

http://www.digitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Variety is reporting today on the home video industry's growing concern at the continuing slowdown of DVD sales this holiday season. Nearly every summer movie DVD release has fallen short of sales expectations so far in the 4th quarter, and overall DVD sales this year are down from 2006, likely reflecting the maturity of the DVD format itself, tightening budgets as a result of a downturn in the economy, and possibly the high-definition format war. The Variety piece has this to say about the format war:

"The industry is still years away from its next cash cow. The battle over high-def formats has grown more entrenched, hindering wide scale adoption of either Blu-ray or HD DVD. And Internet delivery -- a major part of the WGA strike -- is even more Lilliputian than DVD. Analysts believe it will be years before downloads become significant, and even then might only approach 15% of the current DVD biz."

That part about Internet delivery is key, I think. People who might be willing to pay $19.99 or $24.99 for a movie plus extras on a disc are unlikely to ever want to pay the same amount for a download. And the technological barriers involved in connecting to the Internet from the living room (not to mention setting up buying accounts and the problem of digital storage) will likely restrict download viewing to a small portion of the overall consumer home video market for some time to come.

Back on the subject of the HD format war impacting DVD sales, here's a bit of anecdotal evidence: I was speaking with my parents last week about holiday gifts. It seems they were thinking of giving someone DVDs for Christmas, but were concerned that they might be wasting their money if DVDs were going to be obsolete soon. Now, I was pretty surprised to hear this. We continue to get reports from readers who have stopped buying standard DVD releases in the anticipation of purchasing titles on one of the new high-def formats instead... but not until the format war is over and a single format becomes the obvious choice. My folks live in North Dakota and they're pretty casual DVD consumers - they'll buy a few titles here and there, maybe rent a couple times a month. They're not likely ever to be high-def disc buyers. And I've never really spoken to them about either high-def format before - they've just seen the commercials on TV and the in-store displays at places like Best Buy. If they're ALREADY concerned that purchasing DVDs might soon be like buying 8-track tapes (which isn't really true, of course), or at least have that concern in the back of their minds, other people are probably thinking the same thing as well. It's not good news for the home video business.

The overall DVD sales slowdown aside, it seems that Black Friday software sales were brisk. Home Media is reporting that Black Friday DVD sales this year were up 6% from last year. On the high-def front, however, software sales for the Blu-ray Disc format dominated those of HD-DVD on the biggest shopping day of the year. According to Nielsen VideoScan First Alert numbers, for the week of 11/19 to 11/25 (Monday to Sunday), Blu-ray held a commanding 72.6% share of high-def software sales compared to HD-DVD's 27.4% That's very nearly a 3 to 1 margin, and it comes in spite of a strong surge in HD-DVD player sales in the wake of Toshiba's recent discounting. Industry insiders are reporting a surge in Blu-ray Disc player sales as well, however, also in the wake of recent price reductions. Particularly strong are sales of Sony's Blu-ray ready PlayStation 3, which have reportedly increased nearly 300% according to online reports.

Meanwhile, Reuters and Gamespot UK are reporting that Blu-ray's software sales edge has now extended to Europe, in addition to existing leads in the U.S., Japan and Australia. From the Gamespot story: "According to Media Control Gfk International, 73 percent of next-generation movies bought by European consumers were on Blu-ray, and 27 percent on HD DVD."

Lest you think the news is all bad for HD-DVD, the HD-DVD Promotions Group has announced that Black Friday sales have pushed the HD-DVD format past the 750,000 players mark, when Microsoft's Xbox 360 add-on drive is counted in the figures (the actual breakdown is estimated to be something on the order of 450,000 actual stand-alone players plus 300,000 or so Xbox 360 add-on drives). On the other hand, according to recent estimates (released prior to Black Friday, so not including Black Friday sales) there are reportedly some 300,000 stand-alone Blu-ray players in North America, plus another 1.9 million PlayStation 3s, for a total of approximately 2.2 million. Ironically, that's also roughly a 3 to 1 margin. Obviously, not every PS3 owner is watching movies, but the continuing Blu-ray software sales edge (despite fewer stand-alone players sold) would seem to indicate that at least some significant percentage of PS3 owners are watching movies in addition to playing games. Moriarty over at AICN is now among them it seems.

One other format war (hardware) note: There are reports circulating online - which we're working to confirm - that both Onkyo's DV-HD805 and Venturer's SHD7000 are rebadged Toshiba OEM players (the Onkyo is reportedly an HD-XA2 with slight modifications for the enthusiast market, while the Venturer is reportedly an HD-A3). There are additional indications that Onkyo may actually have cancelled its HD-DVD player in favor of releasing a dual-format Blu-ray/HD-DVD player in 2008 instead. Does anyone have further details or confirmation on this? Please let us know.

Ugh. Format wars. Never a dull moment.


That's 750k to how many million blue ray players?
By OxBow on 11/28/2007 9:30:06 AM , Rating: 2
While BD is outselling HD-DVD 2to1 here in the states, I saw yesterday on Reuters that BD is ahead 72%/27% on HD-DVD in Europe.

HD-DVD has had a head start in this "war" as well as cheaper units and production costs but is still losing badly. On top of that they're having to resort to paying off studios to back them just to stay in the race.

The "war" isn't over yet, but it doesn't look to good for HD-DVD. After pushing their units for over a year, they still haven't succeeded in getting a 0.25% adoption rate.




By retrospooty on 11/28/2007 9:43:27 AM , Rating: 4
actually is doesn't look good for either side as total adotion rates for both BR and HD-DVD combined are very very low. Still too expensive. These early figures mean very little because the vast majority of the market has not bought anything at all.

Again, it always comes back to the same point as DVD did many years ago, it wont take off until super cheap players arrive. The first sun $100 player (reg. price, not sale prive)will take some huge sales #'s with it, and when its below $50 it will really take off. So far all data points to HD-DVD being the first. So unless Sony can radically lower its prices, I would say HD-DVD looks really good at this point.


By tmouse on 11/29/2007 8:48:03 AM , Rating: 2
I agree also people must keep in mind HDTV adoption is still in its early stages. Many still balk at the prices even though they have dropped significantly, but old standard definition sets were just so cheap it is slowing the adaptation, and the rapid switch from 720 to 1080 didn’t help. It’s still very early in this game I do not see any way anyone could even begin to pick a winner this early. I predict we will see more HD OEMs, probably dual units, and possibly BR will win IF they can stay around long enough for the capacity issues to have any real impact. Currently it is not a real issue since the current capacities are fine for movies which probably will not get any larger (I am just talking about the feature itself, you can only sit for so long). Most of the increase is now in added features which seldom are make or break decision makers and possibly better sound capacity which most users currently cannot take advantage of. Possibly as movies evolve (multiple endings are a start) and possibly become more interactive this will cause a necessary increase in capacity (although one can argue the loss of the art in film making if this occurs). $100 is a significant amount to the majority who have not made any HD investment. Most people will never do a cost per capacity analysis, DVD players are practically considered throw away items which can be upgraded every few years, so currently price is going to drive the market.


By Moishe on 11/28/2007 10:11:23 AM , Rating: 2
has blu-Ray achieved over a 0.25% adoption rate?


By AlphaVirus on 11/28/2007 11:01:32 AM , Rating: 2
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/index.html#cema
If you scroll down half way to the section titled "DVD & HD FORMAT STATS" There are a few numbers there to reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_de...
After reading this article it says the price of BluRayDisc is from Region Coding and Security reasons, but it has not stopped it from outselling HD-DVD.

According to Nielsen VideoScan here is a piechart of sales from both camps for the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HighDefSales.sv...

quote:
Since inception, US market share was 61% for Blu-ray and 39% for HD DVD


It does not,however, state if PS3 or 360 were included. But usually companies such as Nielsen are an unbiased camp.

Hopefully this helps any thoughts.


Last month?
By Mitch101 on 11/28/2007 9:57:24 AM , Rating: 2
Do we have numbers just for last month? When people start focusing on overall numbers instead of recent numbers it usually means they are trying to hide something.

Did the low price of set to HD-DVD players in the month of November top PS3 and Blu-Ray player sales?

I know of 14 people in the last month who jumped on the HD-DVD player bandwagon and NONE bought PS3's. Probably because the one PS3 friend we have plays with our 360's and PC's lately because of the lack of PS3 good titles. Im betting in the next week he puts his PS3 on e-bay.




RE: Last month?
By Moishe on 11/28/2007 10:16:57 AM , Rating: 2
I do think it would be helpful to get past the FUD on all sides of this. If we had pure sales numbers even from two or three stores the fanboiishness and marketing crap could be sounding shut down... but instead we have rough estimates and skewed reports from a number of shady sources....

I would like to see something like this:
Walmart: 10k HD-DVD (5k titles), 10k Blu-Ray (5k titles)
Circuit City: 2k HD-DVD (1k titles), 2k Blu-Ray (1k titles)
Target: 10k HD-DVD (5k titles), 10k Blu-Ray (5k titles)
Best Buy: 2k HD-DVD (1k titles), 2k Blu-Ray (1k titles)


"falling prices" a false alarm.
By gochichi on 11/28/2007 10:48:59 AM , Rating: 1
I think everyone expected the price to stay below $150.00 after the crazy $99 sales, but we were all wrong. HD DVD players are as expensive, if not more expensive than ever now. I went out to buy an HD DVD player shortly after the sale, and the cheapest player that Circuit City had was $299. They were intent with selling me an HD up-converting DVD player because they didn’t know the difference (and many of my friends with HDTVs wouldn’t know the difference either). This was a clearance sale that we all mistook as a price reduction. Now I really have sour grapes with HD DVD, they just continue to add noise and confusion to the home theater space… and I’m not sure they add much more than that.
Traditionally I’m all about the simplicity of a standalone player, but I’m getting more open minded about the available options. How could I not get open minded when the stand alone players cost so much? Namely, the PS3 simply needs a remote controller (Sony, the remote controller should come in the box, this is awesome free advice) in order to be every bit as good of a movie player as the competition. The sleek interface and an easily upgradeable hard drive in which to put your family pictures in and your music collection make the PS3 the player of choice really. Second choice is an XBOX 360 with add-on (it’s high time the HD DVD player came with the stupid 360 already, the add-on is unsightly). The reason being that it works as a media extender for Windows Media Center (which is cool enough that I hardly watch my TV anymore, b/c I record TV on my computer). The third choice is a Media Center PC with a hybrid HD DVD/ Blu-Ray player. Anything above $200.00 this late in the game for a standalone player is too much, particularly for HD DVD (Blu-ray at $299 may be a little bit more reasonable).
These days I’m seeing HD DVD as Toshiba’s temper tantrum rather than as a legitimate competitor. Even if HD DVD were to win, I just can’t buy into it anymore… the damage to the consumer and the movie market is done. I think Blu-ray at least has steadily declining prices (they’re not playing games), a better player (the PS3) and better movie exclusives. Of course, it also stores a higher capacity per disk which is always a plus.
Please note that I’m not even talking about ever playing games on the PS3. I’m merely discussing its ability in terms of playing video and other media (with emphasis on HiDef movie disks).




RE: "falling prices" a false alarm.
By DrKlahn on 11/28/2007 11:54:15 AM , Rating: 2
Well a quick look on Google shows the HD A2 at around $160 and the HD A3 at just over $200 online. Why the sour grapes with Toshiba? I don't expect Black Friday and "Special one time sales" prices to apply at any other time then when they are advertised. Should I be mad that a 37" HDTV I looked at went back up to it's MSRP after Black Friday?

HD DVD and Toshiba have done no more or less damage than Blu Ray has. Both camps should have not have let this happen. The PS3 is a great player, but I wouldn't agree it's a better movie player than the high end standalones. As good, yes (unless you need analog outputs to enjoy the new sound formats). Personally I will go with a standalone Blu Ray player to better integrate into my home theater. But the PS3 is certainly a solid choice.


PC drives
By SilentSin on 11/28/2007 11:30:32 AM , Rating: 2
Does anyone know if these figures include sales of optical drives for use in PCs? These drives are few and far between at this point but they do exist and I'd imagine they will take off as prices come down for the burners.

Only reason I ask is because this is a very fuzzy area, similar to PS3/BluRay sales numbers. Some people may just buy the drives so they can burn high capacity disks. Or maybe the drive came bundled on a laptop and the person doesn't really care about it. Games will inevitably show up on these formats since their size is now starting to strain DVDs, negating these drives as solely "movie playing devices".




MHO, FWIW, :P
By MFK on 11/29/2007 6:06:05 AM , Rating: 2
Reading the myriad of differing opinions here on this topic, and after seeing all of SavagePotatos comments voted down, I decide to voice my own opinion.

Blu Ray vs. HD DVD.
Do we know what or who decides the winner?
Is it the average Joe? Or is it the studios? Or is it the porn industry?
I just took a first year economics course so I'm in no way qualified to make a statement on how a market operates so I'll shy away from that, but I will say this, the average Joe is also easily swayed by word of mouth and advertisement.
I've heard atleast one technologically uneducated person tell me that some one told them HD DVD was the cheaper (read: bad quality) equivalent of Blu Ray, and that they would only buy Blu Ray, if they were to ever buy a HD player.

I see the point mdoggs is trying to make by saying that the average Joe does not care about the extra space when both the discs sport the same quality. He cares about the one that is cheaper.

But I'm sure there are other average Joes out there who were told by their friend that Blu Ray could technically hold more data, and so they swear by Blu Ray.

Do we know which one will win? I doubt it. Not yet anyways. And ofcourse the longer this drags on, the chances of a dual format market increase.

Is it possible that Sony by succumbing to their partners pressure would reduce royalties to ensure that their format wins? Maybe, but unplausible.

Is it possible that the gamers who picked up the PS3 now only buy Blu Ray because they figure that they already have a capable HD player disguised as a console, why not just pick up a movie for it? I see this happening alot more than a avid movie watcher buying a PS3 for its Blu Ray capabilities. I'm sure some of these people are out there too and they contribute to the attachment rate. But I believe that they are vastly out numbered by the people who bought the PS3 for gaming, who go out to buy a DVD, and instead end up purchasing Blu Ray figuring they'd like to see what all the fuss is about.

So is it the format that has a greater amount of stand-alone players in households that wins, or is it the format that has the greatest amount of discs sold that wins?
Only time will tell.




By deeznuts on 11/29/2007 1:09:10 PM , Rating: 2
This is a dying topic on DailyTech but just an FYI

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_displa...

quote:
The high-definition format war tilted even more heavily in favor of Blu-ray Disc despite a rash of inexpensive HD DVD players sold through Wal-Mart and other discount retailers in recent weeks. Nielsen VideoScan data for the week shows 72.6% of high-definition discs purchasee consumers were Blu-ray and just 27.4% were HD DVD. HD DVD players have been selling for as little as $98, one-fourth the lowest street price for a Blu-ray player.




What they don't tell you...
By bplewis24 on 11/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: What they don't tell you...
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 9:18:08 AM , Rating: 1
An example to illustrate that the 500k figure was known about weeks ago: http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Hardware/In...

Brandon


RE: What they don't tell you...
By mdogs444 on 11/28/2007 9:26:19 AM , Rating: 2
Ok so just for kicks - if the 500k standalone was already cited weeks ago - how do the sales during the BF weekend, as well as the $160 HD-DVD sellout at Amazon (including the 10 free movies) play in? Certainly, you cannot saying that they are still at 500k and that the sales in the recent 2-3 weeks havent budged the figures...are you?


RE: What they don't tell you...
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 9:44:40 AM , Rating: 1
No, of course not. But read the above article I posted for a better picture.

If we make several assumptions (namely that what is posted in the article is accurate) we can piece together several pieces of the puzzle:

On november 8th, roughly 420k stand alones were sold.

In early November, it was already suggested that roughly 200k of XBox 360 add ons were sold.

that would mean that over the past two weeks, a combination of 150k of stand alones and 360 add-ons have been sold. I would assume that over 90% of that figure would be stand-alones.

If we assume a steady pace of 25k a week over the two weeks after November 8th, that means 50k were sold last week, making Black Friday a 100% increase over the previous week...which sounds reasonable, especially considering there were no deals on black friday that bested the pre-black friday deal in early November.

But 50k on Black Friday is a far cry from what the headline of the original article on High Def Digest ("HD DVD player sales top 750k") was implying...that some huge buying had been going on.

And what does a sell-out prove? I could sell out 100 HD DVD players and it doesn't mean I moved any huge amount of inventory.

Brandon


RE: What they don't tell you...
By FITCamaro on 11/28/2007 9:53:08 AM , Rating: 3
What does it matter if the HD-DVD players sold were the 360 addon? It's still sold exclusively for the purpose of watching HD-DVD movies. Regardless of whether you plug it into your 360 or your PC. It can't do anything else. It's not like a PS3 where people buy them usually to play games.


RE: What they don't tell you...
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 10:03:18 AM , Rating: 1
Please re-read the original post. This has nothing to do with the PS3 and whether or not the 360 add on exclusively plays movies. This is about the article (the original one) suggesting that a huge number of stand-alone units were being sold and that HD DVD is gaining some huge amount of momentum because of it, when in fact all that is going on is the accounting principles are changing.

And I apologize for my math being off in the above post...that only comes out to 100k and not 150k over the past 3 weeks.

Brandon


RE: What they don't tell you...
By DigitalFreak on 11/28/2007 2:19:50 PM , Rating: 2
Are you still here?


RE: What they don't tell you...
By Spivonious on 11/28/2007 9:53:34 AM , Rating: 2
What's wrong with including the add-on? The only thing you can do with it is watch HD-DVD movies. Are you upset because your PS3 will only be good for playing games in a year?

Personally I don't care who wins. I don't see enough of a reason to switch from upsampled DVDs. The picture quality difference is just not big enough.


RE: What they don't tell you...
By bplewis24 on 11/28/07, Rating: 0
RE: What they don't tell you...
By guste on 11/28/2007 10:48:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Once again, the HD DVD promotional group is up to their usual tactics. This isn't news, it's just an episode from Season 3 of The Wire


You certainly seemed to imply that it was wrong, don't you think? Also, you really shouldn't type or in any way refer to the word fanboy.

Seriously.

Anyway, all that said, both groups are killing the high-def market. It makes it kind of hard to jump in when both sides are pissing in the well they drink from, by making it difficult for consumers.


RE: What they don't tell you...
By bplewis24 on 11/28/2007 2:55:26 PM , Rating: 2
No, I didn't imply anything of the sort. Reading comprehension dictates that I implied the HD DVD promotional group has done this before...this being putting a spin on statistical data to give the reader the impression some major momentum is swinging things in their favor.

And to ask if I'm "mad that my ps3 won't do anything but play games" in a few years is a fanboyish thing to say, as this has absolutely nothing to do with the PS3, and more importantly, completely skirts the merits of the discussion. I know it's hard for people here to comprehend, but there are some people on this site that can remain objective and use logical reasoning and factual data to support their point of view.

Brandon


RE: What they don't tell you...
By SavagePotato on 11/28/2007 10:45:19 AM , Rating: 4
Sounds like the testimonial of someone watching upscaled dvd on a low end TV.

Put it on a 50 inch plus 1080p tv and the difference would blow you away between real HD content and upscaled DVD.


RE: What they don't tell you...
By Spuke on 11/28/2007 1:25:41 PM , Rating: 2
I have a 56" and the difference is obvious. I have directly compared two movies in HD DVD and SD.