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Sony, Warner Bros. deliver a stinging blow to Toshiba, HD DVD Group
Is this the final nail in the coffin for HD DVD?

The news just continues to sour for the HD DVD camp. Earlier today, DailyTech reported that Warner Bros. decided to go Blu-ray exclusive by the end of May 2008. Warner Bros. executives backed their decision by saying that the move was beneficial for consumers.

"A two-format landscape has led to consumer confusion and indifference toward high definition, which has kept the technology from reaching mass adoption and becoming the important revenue stream that it can be for the industry," stated Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Group President Kevin Tsujihara.

Toshiba, clearly stunned by the announcement, issued a press release of its own stating its disappointment with the decisions by Warner Bros.

"We will assess the potential impact of this announcement with the other HD DVD partner companies and valuate potential next steps," said Toshiba in a statement. "We remain firm in our belief that HD DVD is the format best suited to the wants and needs of the consumer."

It looks as though the fallout from the Warner Bros. move is coming fast and furiously. The DailyTech inbox was just moments ago greeted with the following message from a Toshiba representative regarding CES press meetings and the scheduled HD DVD press conference:

Based on the timing of the Warner Home Video announcement today, the HD DVD Promotional Group has decided to cancel 1:1 press meetings at CES, in addition to the press conference that was scheduled for Sunday evening. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause…

We are currently discussing the potential impact of this announcement with the other HD DVD partner companies and evaluating next steps. We believe the consumer continues to benefit from HD DVD's commitment to quality and affordability -- a bar that is critical for the mainstream success of any format.

We’ll continue to keep you updated on new developments around HD DVD.

It looks as though HD DVD may be on life support considering this latest series of events. Many consumers have been disheartened by the whole HD DVD vs. Blu-ray format war, but it looks as though a white flag may soon be planted.

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The "consumers" made this inevitable
By KingOfOldSkool on 1/4/2008 11:26:11 PM , Rating: 1
@jpeyton and ATC - Couldn't have said it any better myself

Bottomline, the Blu-Ray sales numbers over the holiday season (even in spite of $99 HD-DVD players) were the writing on the wall of the HD-DVD group.. I'm not saying HD-DVD will go away completely.. but fanboys need to come to terms with the fact that Blu-Ray is the "consumers" choice.. and unless HD-DVD fanboys start buying thousands of HD-DVD discs themselves.. there various rambling in tech forums do not hold the same weight as the sales numbers.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By daBKLYNdoorman on 1/4/2008 11:32:42 PM , Rating: 1
poor HD-DVD. t'was a good format.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By computergeek485 on 1/4/2008 11:45:14 PM , Rating: 4
With the death of widespread HD-DVD means the death of affordable High Def players for the masses if sony has anything to say about it. If HD-DVD completely disappears look to see the Blu-ray players price double just because sony can and will do something like that.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By jpeyton on 1/5/2008 12:16:14 AM , Rating: 5
Did the death of Beta double VHS prices?

Did the death of DIVX double DVD prices?

*If* Sony doubles their prices, buy a Samsung, Sharp or Panasonic instead. Blu-Ray has wide support from manufacturers who will compete for your dollar.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By Master Kenobi on 1/5/2008 12:18:24 AM , Rating: 2
Toshiba could hit back by dropping the licensing cost for HD DVD to bedrock prices, causing a shit ton of knockoff players to hit the market. This would push market penetration.

By jpeyton on 1/5/2008 12:23:38 AM , Rating: 5
Of course they will. Either that, or take warehouses full of HD-DVD players to the desert and bury them.

The only problem, of course, is convincing a consumer electronics company to invest a significant amount of money behind a movie format that is destined for failure. R&D costs, materials/manufacturing costs, marketing costs, and then having to compete with Toshiba's unbelievably low retail prices...I'm not sure if any company wants to bite that bullet.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By reader1 on 1/5/2008 11:11:03 AM , Rating: 2
That wouldn't matter. At this point it's clear everybody wants one format. People would rather have one format fail then have both on the market. HD-DVD is now under a lot of pressure to withdraw as a drawn out war will only continue to confuse and irritate customers.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By omnicronx on 1/5/2008 12:53:14 PM , Rating: 2
Although it probably won't, it very well could make a difference. RCA/Phillips dropping licensing fees on VHS put the nail in the coffin for BetaMax, could happen again.

By Mach Omega on 1/6/2008 4:03:51 AM , Rating: 3
But VHS had the edge and just drove the nail in the coffin of Beta. HD-DVD is the BetaMax in this scenario.

Not to bring up an old argument, but people have forgotten that Beta was significantly superior to VHS. For that matter, MiniDisk kicked the sh!@ out of cassette from a technical standpoint. Proprietary formats may suck but the majority of Sony's have been significantly superior to the competition (except Memory Sticks, which I have always thought sucked ass). MS doesn't catch near as much crap as Sony and it pushes a load of proprietary formats (MS Office, WMAnything). The Internet has just made it impossible for any of them to gain overwhelming traction.

By mars777 on 1/6/2008 2:06:41 AM , Rating: 2
And if Sony responds with licencing pricecuts?

And remember that Sony has more room for price cuts than Toshiba, and that would add more to the fact that HDDVD is losing badly.

I'm not sure that at this point thay have a solution.

Damn cheap players didn't contribute to sales, why would a few % cheaper player make the difference?

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By TP715 on 1/5/2008 1:42:44 AM , Rating: 5
At $400 to $1300 a unit street price, Sony, Samsung, Sharp, or Panasonic don't have to double their prices to keep me (and probably a lot of other people) away from high definition.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By Chaser on 1/5/2008 3:32:37 PM , Rating: 4
No surprise that scores a 5 in the HD love fest here at DT's forums. Wipe your tears friends. There's a full featured BD player for $299.00 and prices will continue to fall without needing desperate fireside Walmart sales.

By Spuke on 1/9/2008 6:29:00 PM , Rating: 3
There's a full featured BD player for $299.00
Too bad $300 is STILL too expensive. I'll wait for the $100 BD player then I'll get one.

By cochy on 1/5/2008 12:41:00 AM , Rating: 4
Silly comment. Blu-ray has more widespread manufacture support than HD-DVD. Prices will fall just like every other technology.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By EglsFly on 1/5/2008 4:37:28 AM , Rating: 5
If Sony was the only company making Blu-Ray players, your comment might actually be something worth reading, but in this case its the other way around.

There are more hardware companies making Blu-ray players than HD-DVD. Major Blu-Ray brands such as Panasonic, Samsung, Pioneer, Sharp, Sony, LG, etc...
Major HD-DVD player brands..... Toshiba....

I'm just glad this format war finally appears to be coming to an end.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By djc208 on 1/5/2008 8:02:30 AM , Rating: 2
True but Sony does own the patents so they get to determine the license costs. If HD-DVD dies they'd be stupid not to retain or even increase those fees, it's not like you could go to another format.

It wouldn't be the first time a company has done so. I think Sony already showed this with the PS3, they wanted a fortune for their developer kit at first since it was the console to beat. They dropped the prices when the 360 and Wii beat them.

Something's keeping BD player costs high, if they use the same laser with different optics how come I can get a HD-DVD player for almost half what a BD player will cost me? Only recently has the PS3 been useated as the cheapest BD player (barely) and Sony had to take a loss on every system to do that.

By michal1980 on 1/5/2008 9:54:49 AM , Rating: 1
your an idiot. its not like sony alone worked on blu-ray.

that is one of the most wide spread blu-ray lies I have heard over and over again.

the fees and license costs are speard amoung a wide group of people. and even with 'high' fees its not like the fee will be 100 dollars a machine.

Prices on players will drop without hd-dvd in the mix. Those license fees mean jake if you only sell one or 2 machines. The point of these fee's is to sell millions. of copies, and make a fee bucks each time.


but back to the sony = blu-ray. What kool-aid are these people drinking.

If you want to be closer to the truth, the 'only' company behing hd-dvd is toshiba, they allone stood out, they made most of the players, including the 'chinese' players, and just let compaines stick their names on it.

the only other manufactures where those making dual-format drives

By BansheeX on 1/5/2008 12:06:39 PM , Rating: 4
if they use the same laser with different optics how come I can get a HD-DVD player for almost half what a BD player will cost me

They are both using blue laser, but blu-ray's lens aperture is more aggressive technologically, meaning lower initially yields than HD-DVD. It would be the same as if DVD, when it was first being sold, had a competitor that was cheaper than it to start with but only stored 2.7GB of data. HD-DVD fans of today would probably support that format citing faster adoption and affordibility, etc. Of course, we know now how long DVD lasted and how the initially high costs of products always go down. But DVD didn't have a competitor at that resolution, so there was no consumer perception of "oh, its more expensive, what a rip-off." They simply accepted it and waited until it was affordable for them.

Blu-ray also uses a for-profit model, which is one of the reasons they have all the industry support and Toshiba has none. Consumers always want the lowest price, but companies also want to make money. Go figure!

By encia on 1/5/2008 9:42:04 PM , Rating: 2
Emm NEC and Sanyo for HD-DVD group.

Samsung and LG sells HD-DVD/Blu-Ray combo drives.

By adiposity on 1/10/2008 2:07:05 PM , Rating: 3
Wrong, Blu-ray and HD-DVD still face stiff competition from DVD, which to most consumers has similar quality and much lower pricing. This will force whichever wins the format war to keep driving prices down.


By Polynikes on 1/4/2008 11:46:08 PM , Rating: 2
That's what people said about Betamax. Unfortunately, as some see it, it lost to VHS.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By lopri on 1/4/2008 11:42:41 PM , Rating: 2
Even in the tech forums, I just couldn't stand the statements like "Less is better than more", "Less is enough for most people", etc. At least we won't hear such nonsense any more. Hopefully.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By TomZ on 1/4/2008 11:44:43 PM , Rating: 2
Less DRM in HD-DVD is more! Is that what you mean, Sony fanboy? LOL.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By Master Kenobi on 1/5/2008 12:06:41 AM , Rating: 5
Frankly I prefer the Less DRM and no region coding. Call me crazy but Region Coding is bullshit. You would have thought they learned their lesson after the DVD Fiasco.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By dubldwn on 1/5/2008 12:39:29 AM , Rating: 2
You would have thought they learned their lesson after the DVD Fiasco.

Well, they did learn something. Japan and South Korea are in our region now, which is cool because I'm not sure I would get foreign movies from anywhere else (the really good Euro-movies are usually released here anyway). Now, if I was in Europe, I'd be pissed. They're teamed up with media hotspots Greenland and Madagascar.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By ali123 on 1/5/2008 10:24:20 AM , Rating: 2
How about china? they got the best asian movies

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By SirLucius on 1/5/2008 12:09:23 PM , Rating: 2
Here's a list of the region breakdowns for Blu-ray:

A: North America, Central America, South America, Japan, Taiwan, North Korea, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Southeast Asia.

B: Europe, Greenland, French territories, Middle East, Africa, Australia, and New Zealand.

C: India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Mainland China, Pakistan, Russia, Central, and South Asia.

The best Chinese films have come out of Hong Kong, so you're set.

Honestly people make a bigger deal about regional encodings then they need to. First, give it some time, and you'll see region free players, or there will be hacks to make a playere region free.

Second, I'm in a film program at an artsy school in NYC, and I can count on one hand the number of people that have DVD's that aren't region 1 or region free. The majority of films, even really obscure indie films, see some kind of US release. I own more foreign films than I do domestic, and the only DVD's that aren't region 1/free are some Japanese indie bands' concert DVD's.

And if we're talking about the average Joe, then regional encoding matters even less. Your average Joe buying DVD's at Wal*mart doesn't care about watching a Fellini or Park Chan-wook film. They've probably never even heard of those two directors. The Blu-ray region system is a lot better than the old DVD system, and I don't see how it's going to really affect you unless you make it a habit of buying movies that aren't region free or part of your region.

By SirLucius on 1/5/2008 12:19:08 PM , Rating: 2
And I meant to add that just because Blu-ray supports regional encoding doesn't mean that all discs will make use of it. There are already quite a few releases out there that are region free. I'm sitting here looking at my copy of Paprika on Blu-ray and it's got support for all regions. All it takes is a quick Google search to find many Blu-ray releases that have multi-region support or are completely region free.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By Master Kenobi on 1/5/2008 1:29:11 PM , Rating: 5
I just get screwed because the BBC puts out most of its DVD's in Region 2, and with Blu Ray, Europe is still in a different region than North America. No thanks, Blu Ray needs to drop the region coding bullshit.

By Mach Omega on 1/6/2008 4:13:44 AM , Rating: 2
Can't you just download that shyte like everyone else? For that matter, if you were to actually PAY for HD from the BBC, wouldn't it just send you one coded for your region? Last I checked, the BBC doesn't turn down money and I can't see why it wouldn't sell HD videos region coded for the U.S. If it doesn't, that's the stupidest crap I've ever heard (or read).

By blwest on 1/6/2008 11:52:31 PM , Rating: 3
The first thing I've ever agreed with you on!

By reader1 on 1/5/2008 10:32:15 AM , Rating: 1
Since most people buy movies for their own region, region coding is not important.

...DVD Fiasco.

What fiasco are you referring to and how did it impact DVD sales?

By Choppedliver on 1/5/2008 12:19:28 PM , Rating: 3
Thats why god made AnyDVD :) The best piece of software ever, and one I actually bought

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By lopri on 1/5/2008 1:43:45 AM , Rating: 2
Trust me I hate DRM with enthusiasm. (I mean who doesn't?) But I don't see much difference between either side's DRM methods employed. Both have potential for trouble and both have been cracked. For one, DRM isn't an issue when a disc is played on a stand-alone player. The trouble with DRM begins:

1) When one tries to play the disc on a PC
2) When one tries to rip (or back up, pirate, whatever) the disc.

I can only hope that one should experience no trouble with playing a legitimately acquired disc. For pirates, I can't say nothing but that the trouble is what they deserve. Besides, it will take quite some time till one would want to rip her/his collection of 50GB (each) discs.. That's a huge amount of data even considering today's cheap hard disk prices. And by the time a couple terabytes of hard disk space becomes a norm, we will be dealing with 1600p and a different format war, and Blu-Ray would have been just as easy to crack as today's DVD.

What's most attractive about Blu-Ray for me is the incredible backup possibility. Other than (gasp) video files, all my personal data (documents, music, photos, and what not) would fit in a couple dual-layer Blu-Ray disc. Within a year or two, we'll see the introduction of 100 GB Blu-Ray disc. Talk about easy backup! I can't wait to say bye bye to my external hard disks and the cable mess they tend to make.

On a side note: It's pretty obvious that digitally downloaded contents will be even more heavily DRM'ed for average consumers. I dealt with it in the past and it was such a frustrating experience.

On the other hand: I am not too familiar with issues regarding region coding. How big a deal is it?

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By neothe0ne on 1/5/2008 12:08:44 PM , Rating: 2
And will your Blu-Ray backup discs be as reliable as my backup DVD+'s and DVD-'s that get CRC redundancy errors within a week?

By RMTimeKill on 1/11/2008 3:46:59 PM , Rating: 2
CRC redundancy errors? Pardon the pun but isn't that being redundant in its self ;-) Cycle Redundancy Check Redundancy Errors, hehe, just thought it was a little funny... and yes, I am bored...

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By SavagePotato on 1/5/2008 2:10:19 PM , Rating: 2
What people don't seem to get about backup to storage media when they shout, just get a hard drive, is the entire point of an offsite backup.

People that are backing up crucial data NEED an offsite backup. Putting that data from one timebomb spinning disk that they probably won't replace till it DOES implode onto another in the same building is pointless.

Something they can put their files on, take to another site and tuck away in a safe place on a regular basis IS what is needed. Online backup services are great, and the company I work for provides offsite backup for many local buisnesses. Still for those ones that are super anal, backup to physical media for offsite storage is often reccomended.

It is absolutely amazing how many people stored backups on floppies. I was at a company that had their accounting database file backup done on floppies, and that was only last year. They had this bloody rolodex of about 100 sequenced floppies. I wanted to laugh when most of them were predictably corrupt. Good quality optical disc backup is a totaly different ballgame than floppy disk or tape.

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By splines on 1/7/2008 10:57:48 AM , Rating: 2
Wow. You just called optical media a reliable backup method.

Where do you work? I have a bridge to sell them.

By RMTimeKill on 1/11/2008 3:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
For offsite cycled backups, optical media is not a bad solution (pending amount of data). What would you suggest for off site backup? A mobile NAS box? o.O

RE: The "consumers" made this inevitable
By EglsFly on 1/5/2008 4:52:02 AM , Rating: 5
Well, for those that like less DRM (at least for music), then your gonna love this...
(This news was absent from DT, so here is a link):

Sony BMG Plans to Drop DRM
In a move that would mark the end of a digital music era, Sony BMG Music Entertainment is finalizing plans to sell songs without the copyright protection software that has long restricted the use of music downloaded from the Internet, has learned.

Details of Sony BMG's plans are expected to emerge in the coming weeks. Justin Timberlake, the popular recording artist signed to the Sony-owned Jive label, is participating in a Super Bowl promotion with Pepsi (PEP) that will kick off Feb. 3 and offer free distribution of 1 billion songs from major labels, including Sony BMG, through Amazon's DRM-free download service, according to a person familiar with the matter.

By mmntech on 1/5/2008 10:42:18 AM , Rating: 4
Sony got hammered for the root kit fiasco. DRM needs to be removed in order to encourage digital sales. Since CDs can't contain DRM (or at least aren't supposed to) people began to wonder why they were paying full price for a lower quality track that limits the devices it can be played on. That's what encourages piracy. That's where DRM as a business model fails. I've never believed DRM was about piracy prevention but rather about forcing people to buy multiple copies of the same item.
DRM was a huge mistake for the industry. Despite what they claim, the record labels want downloadable digital music to overtake CDs. From a business standpoint, manufacturing and distribution costs for MP3s is almost nothing.

Hopefully the movie industry will eventually drop DRM on its products as well. I think this is one of the reasons I was pulling for HD-DVD. No region coding. I fail to see the point of that as a DRM tool. It's not like DVD where there were different picture formats from country to country (NTSC, PAL). HD is standardized. BD has included fewer regions, I'll give then that. Three down from six. In a globalized world though, region locking is backwards thinking.

Stabbed in the back
By BladeVenom on 1/4/2008 10:52:48 PM , Rating: 4
Got any stabbed in the back photos? I'm pretty sure that's what Toshiba and the HD-DVD group is feeling right about now.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Brandon Hill on 1/4/2008 11:01:10 PM , Rating: 2

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Jimmybones on 1/5/2008 1:01:18 PM , Rating: 2
Can't find a good pic at the moment. You should have used cocknocker from Jay and Silent Bob strike back.

Right when he busted Jay in the sac.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By jpeyton on 1/4/2008 11:02:18 PM , Rating: 3
Stabbed in the back?

You mean after releasing big exclusives (The Matrix, Batman Begins, to name a few) for HD-DVD?

After releasing better authored (300, Harry Potter: OOTF) dual-format releases for HD-DVD?

After supporting a losing format for the entire year?

I think WB just faced up to the simple truth; HD-DVD won't win, and it's time to unify the studios and manufacturers under one format.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By BladeVenom on 1/5/2008 12:40:34 AM , Rating: 3
It was only last month that they said they were supporting both formats.

So yes, stabbed in the back. Toshiba got no notice. The HD-DVD group didn't invite them to a press conference and party because they were expecting them to go exclusively to the other side.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By lopri on 1/5/08, Rating: -1
RE: Stabbed in the back
By lopri on 1/5/2008 2:06:45 AM , Rating: 1

RE: Stabbed in the back
By creathir on 1/5/2008 10:56:05 AM , Rating: 3
Oh my gosh. You seriously are BLAMING MS for the format war?

VC-1, the codec behind both formats, was developed by Microsoft. They could care less who wins, other than the fact they belong to the DVD forum.

The average consumer knows JACK about the formats. All they know is that they have a large TV, and they see players selling for under $200 at WalMart. (So they buy the HD DVD)

The other issue I believe has really confused people, is the rediculous name of Blu-Ray. MOST people have NO clue what the heck Blu-Ray is, let alone if they should like it or not. Just look at the commercials on TV. That should speak volumes. When titles are released, they say "Available on DVD and High Def" where they used to say "Available on DVD and Blu-Ray".

This should tell you something. "Blu-Ray" is not sticking. The DVD Forum was smart in adopting a self descriptive name for the format (HD-DVD) which clears confusion, not adds to it.

This Warner announcement, if you ask me, is not going to be a permanent feature on the high def landscape. I can GURANTEE that if Universal and Paramount continue the upward trend for HD DVD sales, other studios will be coming back to the format.

The power is in the people as they say, and with cheap players, the people will/have spoken.

- Creathir

RE: Stabbed in the back
By JAB on 1/5/08, Rating: 0
RE: Stabbed in the back
By KernD on 1/5/2008 12:25:16 PM , Rating: 1
You want Blue Ray to win because your lazy? because you don't have the vocabulary or intellect to explain to the average Joe what's the difference? Maybe you should just get an other job.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Master Kenobi on 1/5/2008 1:22:59 PM , Rating: 2
There are blue ray players available that only produce 1080i. Both Disc's (HD DVD and Blu-Ray) are encoded in 1080p.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By HotdogIT on 1/5/2008 3:25:44 PM , Rating: 1
Which players produce only output 1080i? I realize some of the earlier players (BDP-1000, for example) used an internal de-interlacer instead of pure 1080p source, but I was under the impression that every BR player output 1080p, one way or another.

If anything, I'd like to see a lower cost BR player that only gave 1080i, but didn't think they existed.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By cubby1223 on 1/5/2008 3:38:15 PM , Rating: 2
*All* Blu-ray players so far can output a 1080p signal.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Oroka on 1/5/2008 1:09:04 PM , Rating: 2
Back in the late 90s I proably spent 3 years explaining to people what a 'DVD' was. I still have to explain that a 'DVD' dosent absolutly have to be video, but can contain other things.

The format war has only really gone mainstream in 2007, alot of people still dont know what 'HD' stands for, or what 'HD-DVD' stands for. Every time I am at walmart looking at Blu-Ray, I end up explaining why these blue and red DVDs wont work in their DVD player to several people.

I have no doubt that one day I will see Transformers on BD-DVD.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By boogle on 1/5/2008 2:01:44 PM , Rating: 4
Everyone I've spoken to has known about Blu-Ray, even if it's just the name. Sure HD-DVD gets a mention on occasion, but more often than not it just gets confused with DVD anyway and 'Blu-Ray is obviously the better version'.

At least here in the UK where HD-DVD isn't advertised, and Blu-Ray is all over the place. 90% of the shops only stock Blu-Ray too.

I have HD-DVD, but the writing is on the wall. HD-DVD is going the way of the Dreamcast - out earlier, cheaper, and arguably superior (one spec to rule them all); but it's not marketted well at all. Blu-Ray will win, its got the support of all but 2 studios now.

Blu-Ray players will come down in price, even if HD-DVD breaks the $100 barrier, Blu-Ray will match it before the cost advantage becomes a decisive turning point for HD-DVD.

Warner, while neutral, clearly favoured HD-DVD. They had some HD-DVD exclusives, and as mentioned the dual-format discs sometimes were superior on HD-DVD. If they have switched sides, then clearly the HD-DVD format's days are numbered.

It's sad because I've got a fair investment in HD-DVD discs, but ultimately I'm happy that one side is probably going to win now. At least it means we'll have one HD standard format, that future players can integrate for backwards-compat. Not to mention only one format to worry about.

More power to Blu-Ray tbh. I just hope Paramount release Blu-Ray discs sooner rather than later.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By psychobriggsy on 1/6/08, Rating: -1
RE: Stabbed in the back
By Oregonian2 on 1/7/2008 1:25:54 PM , Rating: 1
Only reason MS was on the HD "side" had to do with something about Blu-Ray's stance on DRM ("more" of some particular sort that the studios wanted) that HD didn't have.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Chernobyl68 on 1/7/2008 7:09:41 PM , Rating: 2
when they say "dvd and hi def" I think it typically means the movie is available on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Otherwise, they say "DVd and Blu-ray" or "DVD and HD-DVD"

RE: Stabbed in the back
By KernD on 1/5/2008 12:42:03 PM , Rating: 1
An other paranoid fool who thinks MS actually cares, if they did care they would have added a HD-DVD to the XB360 from the start.

Too bad MS didn't make XBox360 with better specs.

WTH? I'm a game developer and guess what, the highest quality visual for our games is for the 360, the PS3 is just a small step under it. You think Cell is all that matters? Cell is what saves the PS3 from it's underpowered graphic card. It's graphic system was one generation old already when the PS3 came out, usually, when a console comes out it has a one generation advantage on PC hardware, just like the 360 had when it came out, it took one year to get a GF8800 out, the only card out there that could match it.
With a PS3 you have to do plenty of graphic related processing on the CPU to reduce the work on the GPU. Some developer also do rendering of some part of the graphic on a smaller buffer to reduce the cost of pixel overdraw.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Chaser on 1/5/08, Rating: 0
RE: Stabbed in the back
By boogle on 1/5/2008 2:03:28 PM , Rating: 5
Please, let's not go down this road. This is about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, not which console is 'superior'. If you want to show off how much you know about console hardware go to a console web site and post on their forums.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By shreddR on 1/5/2008 2:08:05 PM , Rating: 1
Haven't read a better post here at Daily Tech for a long time.
Thumbs up mate.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Mach Omega on 1/6/2008 3:29:17 AM , Rating: 2
Amen. The PS3 has and will always be the superior, better valued console. Even Arstechnica is writing that the exclusives for the PS3 are graphically superior and its media functions are better than the 360's. The tables are turning slowly... the PS3 is already superior from a technical standpoint, it's only a matter of time before the market starts to show it.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Oregonian2 on 1/7/2008 1:37:35 PM , Rating: 2

I'm sure this posting was invented by someone as a lark just to tickle people in a provocative way. It's too absurd to think anyone had written it in earnest.

Toshiba, the inventor of HD and pretty much the only manufacturer of HD-format players not being the one behind the HD format. Toshiba "owns" the HD format more than Sony does Blu-ray.


P.S - Another hint about being a joke is the reference to "Toshiba was about to give up on HD-DVD earlier this year". That would have had to been within the last week to be earlier this year. The week before CES. :-)

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Oregonian2 on 1/7/2008 1:52:16 PM , Rating: 2
P.S. - I might point out that it's not true that Microsoft is this giant evil company while Toshiba is the helpless small electronics company that needs help of M$ to get their way. Toshiba sales are slightly HIGHER than Microsoft's (both around $50 billion). Toshiba is not a 60 pound weakling of a company that can't do dastardly things on their own (for instance, they used to sell military related stuff to the Soviet Union in the olden cold war days that they weren't supposed to -- and were caught).

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Felofasofa on 1/7/2008 6:40:38 PM , Rating: 1
they used to sell military related stuff to the Soviet Union in the olden cold war days that they weren't supposed to -- and were caught).

I remember that, the laser lathe, so that the Soviets could machine much quieter propellers for their Subs, - Whores!

RE: Stabbed in the back
By ATC on 1/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Stabbed in the back
By rupaniii on 1/5/08, Rating: -1
RE: Stabbed in the back
By Master Kenobi on 1/5/08, Rating: -1
RE: Stabbed in the back
By cubby1223 on 1/5/2008 12:48:25 AM , Rating: 5
Keep telling yourself that.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By JSK on 1/5/2008 12:07:47 AM , Rating: 2
I bet its almost a guarantee that at some point or another Warner was offered a similar sugarcoated deal like Paramount got if not even more money.

Shows just how much faith they have in BD.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Master Kenobi on 1/5/2008 12:10:26 AM , Rating: 2
Doubt it, with the favoritism WB was showing to HD DVD, I think they figured there was no need.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By lopri on 1/5/2008 1:50:02 AM , Rating: 1
It has been rumoured that Warner was offered $250M from M$. I read on a several occasions. (will see if I can find a link)

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Spyvie on 1/5/2008 12:19:38 AM , Rating: 2
Do we know for a fact that Warner wasn't paid to make the switch?

RE: Stabbed in the back
By ATC on 1/5/2008 12:32:08 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Stabbed in the back
By Spyvie on 1/5/2008 1:29:43 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Stabbed in the back
By ATC on 1/5/2008 1:40:39 AM , Rating: 3 is just a PR site for HD-DVD fans. The link I posted pointed to the conference call of WB's President. Who to believe? In any case, the purported 500M is hard to hide and if it is in fact true then the truth will be out sooner than later.

Tomshardware is reporting that the HD-DVD group offered a huge payout but WB refused. Good for WB I say.

At least they were honest and based their decision on disc sales which, worldwide, clearly are favouring BD.

After all that's said and done, if WB was paid out, why is that any more in the wrong than Paramount's and Dreamworks' payout for HD-DVD's loyalty?

RE: Stabbed in the back
By ATC on 1/5/2008 2:06:34 AM , Rating: 5
I'll go a bit further here...

WB would have to be nuts to allow the president to publicly and openly deny any payout while there's this little not so easily hidden elephant (AKA $500 million).

I truly believe WB did not get paid out. The rumour that's swirling around right now is that Warner wanted FOX to go HD-DVD for it to go HD-DVD too. WB wanted to make a big enough splash that would pave the way for one format to go on and the other to die. Apparently, FOX did get paid out (unknown sum) a few days ago and it was then a no-brainer for WB to announce BD exclusivity.

If that's true, then the BD Association has just out manoeuvred the HD-DVD group in a huge, and potentially lethal way.

New Line Cinema has also just announced BD exclusivity but no surprises there as they are a sister company of WB.

So what are we left with? Timed exclusivity for Universal, Paramount and Dreamworks and I am sure the lawyers are busy tonight as these three are probably looking into ways to break contract with HD-DVD. I don't blame them.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By bplewis24 on 1/5/2008 12:20:42 PM , Rating: 5
Also see this:

"There is absolutely no incentive from either side that would have changed the decision we made based on what we were seeing in the consumer data," he said. "The worldwide DVD business is about $40 billion. Any incentives we might have been offered would have paled next to the lost profits from that business if we get this one wrong.”

"One of the things you see in the NPD data for this fourth quarter was that even with a $100 [price] premium, Blu-ray set tops outsold HD set tops in December. Even with Toshiba having the lowest-cost player in the market, software sales remained 2 to 1 in favor of Blu-ray."

Directly from Warner Home Video President Ron Sanders. I know it doesn't really mesh well with the HD DVD FUD machine that is dailytech, but I thought at least some people might be interested in the truth.


RE: Stabbed in the back
By ATC on 1/5/2008 3:55:03 PM , Rating: 2
Any incentives we might have been offered would have paled next to the lost profits from that business if we get this one wrong

Yes I came across this as well last night and it's a pretty powerful statement. It makes perfect sense if you ask me. I think WB gave HD-DVD a good shot last year and it was obvious that HD wasn't the answer but rather BD. It's as simple as that.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By MrTeal on 1/5/2008 10:35:21 AM , Rating: 2
Looking at that post, a lot of what he is reporting comes from questionable sources. The claim of a payout of $620 million or more was made by a poster on a forum, and when asked for evidence to support his claim, the poster didn't reply. I'd hardly consider that a rock solid source.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Oroka on 1/5/2008 1:25:13 PM , Rating: 3
Any article that starts with "And we have heard some gossip in online forums", you really need to take with a pound of salt.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Dorz on 1/5/2008 11:19:42 AM , Rating: 2
You're very naive if you think WB weren't given some incentive for going BR exclusive. Rumors are already rife at the moment of a $500,000,000 backhander. Thats a huge incentive if it turns out to be true.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By mars777 on 1/6/2008 1:46:03 AM , Rating: 1
500,000,000 for a company that gets 40 billion per year in its business is pretty much nothing. It's like me going to a company that gives me 1% more salary for a few months, but taking the risk of working in a company that could just close the doors for this risk. I just isn't worth.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By bplewis24 on 1/5/2008 12:23:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, they were "stabbed" in the back although Warner reps explicitly stated publicly that they would be watching Fourth Quarter sales closely and intimated that eventually they would choose one format to ensure that HDM would be successful.


RE: Stabbed in the back
By jtyson on 1/6/2008 1:59:17 PM , Rating: 2
Wait... huh?

How, pray tell, was Toshiba or the HD-DVD group stabbed in the back by Warner Bros? You might need to check your facts my friend, because the last time I checked, Warner Bros. was had released the Matrix Trilogy and Batman Begins exclusively for HD-DVD, despite the fact that they hadn't committed to either format exclusively. They've been giving HD-DVD a legitimate leg-up on their competition for months, but have very little to show for it. If anything, Warner Bros. has been getting stabbed in the back by Toshiba and the HD-DVD group for the past year and a half.

It's my belief that Warner Bros. initially believed in HD-DVD far more than Blu-Ray, which would explain why they released a few informal exclusives to the HD-DVD camp. Warner Bros. basically told HD-DVD, "Okay, you say your format is better. We've given you a little head-start, now prove it." HD-DVD seemed to be leading the market initially, but once the PlayStation 3 was released Blu-Ray sales took off and never looked back. Warner Bros. stuck it out for a year before they finally made a decision, and any informed person will tell you that they made the correct one.

If you are incredulously anti-Sony and would like nothing more than to see them fail, then you're probably not going to agree with/understand what I mean when I say this, but there are no advantages in HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, except for one: Cheaper stand-alone players.

Probably the biggest argument by HD-DVD supporters is that HD-DVD movies are cheaper than Blu-Ray movies, which, in reality, is untrue. While HD-DVDs are slightly cheaper to produce than Blu-Ray discs, the HD-DVD group is a huge supporter of "Dual Discs" that also contain the DVD version of a film along with the HD version, which actually raises the average cost of HD-DVDs over Blu-Rays slightly. I could list all of the advantages of Blu-Ray over HD-DVD here, but that would take a really long time, and it's a moot point anyway as it appears that HD-DVD is on the outs. For anybody who's not completely learned on either format, just be confident in the knowledge that the better format won.

And, more importantly, the format war is almost over!!!

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Strunf on 1/6/2008 2:34:59 PM , Rating: 2
Feeling? man these companys have no such thing, they will rape each other for a penny one day and be the new best friends the next one.

Sometimes they are even as sick as kick each other in a market while being the best pals in another.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By jtyson on 1/6/2008 3:36:44 PM , Rating: 1
Gosh, I know what you mean. Why do these companies have to compete? Why can't they all just be merchants of Brotherhood and Peace? Instead of competing for our dollars, why can't they compete for our love and affection?

Personally, I wish that the format war wasn't between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, but rather Gumdrops and Rainbows.

It's called business. The computer that you used to post your comment with is a result of it. Get over it, hippie.

RE: Stabbed in the back
By Strunf on 1/7/2008 5:56:20 AM , Rating: 2
Dude where did I say companies shouldn't compete?... you really shouldn't post when you're high.

"The computer that you used to post your comment with is a result of it."

Wrong the computer I use to post is the result of my work, had I not worked I wouldn't have the money to pay it and hence I wouldn't have any...

Get over it, the world doesn't revolve around your beloved companies.

Secretly was hoping...
By marsbound2024 on 1/5/2008 12:46:46 AM , Rating: 3
Though I don't want to seem a bit fan-boyish and irrational, I was really hoping that Blu-ray would start to edge out and then win. In my opinion, I was always attracted to the storage capacity edge that Blu-ray possessed as I think it allows developers more freedom without having to experiment with more than two layers. More content can be stored on a single/dual layer Blu-ray disc than an HD-DVD and even though to some it may not seem like a huge deal, a few extra gigabytes here and there can make some people a very happy camper (longer and more vivid gameplay, longer movies with more special features, etc).

Don't get me wrong, I have no hard feelings against HD-DVD. But I don't really like all these different storage mediums out there (like Compact Flash, Secure Digital, MMC, Memory Stick, etc). I'd like it to be a little bit more universal. Take away the competing formats for my movies because I don't want to be limited as to what I can watch just because I decided to go with one particular format. As far as the memory cards go: I'd really wish they'd cut it down to almost purely CF and SD. Of course I suppose this is just my own personal pet peeve as it may not annoy others near as much as it does me.

RE: Secretly was hoping...
By FITCamaro on 1/5/2008 9:10:58 AM , Rating: 4
But I don't really like all these different storage mediums out there

You have Sony to thank for adding to those formats. Any time a format is released, Sony has developed its own because it wants to get the majority of the royalties.

RE: Secretly was hoping...
By BansheeX on 1/5/2008 12:31:18 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I absolutely hated 3.5" floppy disks and CD-ROM. God, I wish Sony would stop competing and letting consumers decide these formats and just concede to other companies wanting royalties. /sarcasm

Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Please leave the forums already.

RE: Secretly was hoping...
By Mach Omega on 1/6/2008 3:40:52 AM , Rating: 1
You're right BansheeX. Punk-ass hypocrites downrated you for telling the truth.

RE: Secretly was hoping...
By AlexandertheBlue on 1/5/2008 2:17:54 PM , Rating: 2
I was kind of hoping HD-DVD would win as it was always a complete spec. At least I didn't have anything invested in HD anything at this point. It just sticks in my craw that a poor release like Blu-Ray was should (appear to) win. I'm not saying that Blu-Ray hasn't gotten better, but the incomplete spec and poor initial mastering had me leaning the other way.

RE: Secretly was hoping...
By mars777 on 1/6/2008 1:54:20 AM , Rating: 2
BluRay will probably just stay where it is (meaning the spec). With java allowed on the mediums there is not more to add. It can now do everything. Fullstop. Contrary to the custom microsoft XML tech included into HDDVD that gave a limit to HDDVD. Picture in picture is not all we can have. Just wait and see.

Yes BluRay got later in the game of addons to video, but it gave a huge blow allowing *everything*. The only problem right now is more DRM (which will give problems to a very small amount of customers).

To Quote Randi Rhodes...
By cubdukat on 1/5/2008 12:42:27 AM , Rating: 2
..."Are ya kiddin' me, man?"

I used to lean more towards HD-DVD because the hardware was lower in price, but if the entire HD-DVD consortium cries "Uncle" just because of the defection of one studio (albeit a major one), then maybe I don't wanna have anything to do with that format after all.

Guess it's a good thing that I bought Blu-Ray titles when Best Buy did their BOGO deal over the holidays, huh?

RE: To Quote Randi Rhodes...
By thornburg on 1/5/2008 7:49:50 AM , Rating: 3
Guess it's a good thing that I bought Blu-Ray titles when Best Buy did their BOGO deal over the holidays, huh?

Then it is probably a little bit your fault that WB moved to Blu.

RE: To Quote Randi Rhodes...
By mars777 on 1/6/2008 1:57:10 AM , Rating: 2
First law of capitalism:

Never blame the customer...

In soviet Russia you would be probably right :D

The Future is Looking Rather Dim for HDDVD..
By Oscarine on 1/7/2008 9:51:47 AM , Rating: 2
52 Titles HDDVD of which only 13 of them are scheduled to be released between now and May 6th as HDDVD Exclusives.

vs. 204 on Blu-ray of which 58 will be Blu-Ray exlcusives in the same time period.

13 Titles in a 5 month period is pretty dismal, the writing seems to certainly be on the wall for HDDVD.

By Donkeyshins on 1/7/2008 2:15:28 PM , Rating: 2
Hmmm...think this might be influenced by the fact that Sony owns Columbia/TriStar and MGM? AFAIK, none of the participants in the HD DVD Promotion Group own any major (or minor) studios.

I'm agnostic as I don't have either format (although I had been tempted to try the XBox HD under Vista trick on my Media Center PC). However, I think I'll wait and see how this shakes out.

By masher2 on 1/7/2008 3:18:05 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure where you get your figures. There are a grand total of 429 releases on HD-DVD now, versus 458 for Blu Ray.

HDDVD V's Blue Ray
By Dell Boy on 1/5/2008 6:43:06 PM , Rating: 2
With Millions of XBox 360 sold HD format to the poor ratio of PS3's Surely HDDVD will have a half life

RE: HDDVD V's Blue Ray
By Mach Omega on 1/6/2008 3:51:52 AM , Rating: 2
The overwhelming majority of 360 owners don't even have HDTVs. Unless MS comes out with a SKU with a built-in HD-DVD player (which would be more expensive than a PS3), the 360 won't do much for HD-DVD. Stick a fork in 'em.

Add that 360 games would not be able to take advantage of the extra storage and MS has its back against the wall with this one. Unless MS intends to subsidize the drive... which would be stupid because, even though the division has turned a profit in one quarter, it is DEEPLY in the red over its full lifetime. MS has invested WAY more in the Xbox than it has made... the bleeding has to stop somewhere.

HD recorders
By AlvinCool on 1/7/2008 9:06:35 AM , Rating: 2
From what I'm reading they are in a tight corner. But Sony has had the upper hand before and lost with Beta. Sure it was superior, but that didn't help them. If HD wants to survive they need to pull a rabbit out of their hat. That rabbit would be low cost recorders/players that are PC drives along with low cost recording medium. Right now almost nobody has drives in their PC's. They might not be able to, but it's a billion dollar market thats untapped.

RE: HD recorders
By teckytech9 on 1/7/2008 8:03:48 PM , Rating: 2
Assuming future flash cards could reach 137GB~128GB theoretical maximum capacity at dirt-cheap prices, the HD recorders would be rendered obsolete. Coupled with the fact that a pair of Wi-Fi rabbit ears could be attached to these devices, and inserted via HDMI capable interface directly into the main HD LCD/Plasma/OLED, there would be no need for a physical players too.

Since the future devices could contain a virtual player and would be broadcasting HD wirelessly, an option could also be used to send the same signal throughout the household electricity wiring. Lets use the same analogy of CD-R migrating to flash memory and any video content as well.

Where was the marketing blitz?
By Noya on 1/5/2008 3:41:11 AM , Rating: 3
...that I read HD-DVD was going to launch this past holiday season? I gotta say I've seen TONS of Blu-Ray advertising compared to least 15:1. Where does Joe Public's tech knowledge come from?...TV ads.

The lack of advertising alone was enough to nail them.

A media blitz while taking xBox360 hardware losses would've gave them the edge in my opinion.

By rafaelh on 1/7/2008 11:55:58 AM , Rating: 1
To some guys saying that PS3 has an advatage over Xbox 360 let me tell you this, its clear youre not a gamer i would never buy a PS3 because a simple fact, it doesnt have any decent game, the only 2 games PS3 fans are waiting for are Gran Turismo and MGS 5 and MGS it's also coming out on the 360 only a few months later i'm not a 360 fanboy but i own one because of the great games like Halo, Bio Shock, Mass Effect, Gears of War, etc.
and finally its really to bad that WB take side with Blu ray just because in the end if blu wins im going to be forced to buy a overpriced player just to watch movies on HD

RE: PS3??
By Malhavoc on 1/8/2008 3:48:20 AM , Rating: 2
Recent claims of MGS4 release on Xbox360 have been nothing but rumour. Official comments have stated PS3 exclusivity. There are plenty of 2nd hand reports but to get to the point:

Also, price of Blu-Ray players will come down just as any other technology. Anyway get used to it, Paramount may be switching sides as well.

By ali123 on 1/5/2008 2:42:07 AM , Rating: 2
Bourne can kick spiderman's ass

By reader1 on 1/5/2008 10:25:10 AM , Rating: 2
Movie studios, customers, and player manufactures all want one format and will continue to work towards that goal. Having one format is simpler while having two offers no significant advantages.

So after all these years...
By Choppedliver on 1/5/2008 12:16:33 PM , Rating: 1
... of Sony shoving proprietary formats down our throats, now we are forced to "shut up bitch and swallow"

It's a sad day when we all have to concede defeat to Sony, even if BD is a good format. It's just the principle.

By psychobriggsy on 1/6/2008 2:46:50 AM , Rating: 1
It's okay. Sony don't own Blu-Ray, they're just one part of a large consortium: In 2002 that was: Matsushita, Pioneer, Philips, Thomson, LG Electronics, Hitachi, Sharp, Samsung, and Sony.

HD-DVD on the other hand was just Toshiba doing its own thing, and Microsoft encouraging them from the sidelines for their own reasons. It's arguably the more proprietary format.

The day that Toshiba joins the Blu-Ray Disc Association is the day that HD-DVD is truly dead.

Too funny
By illhuntudown on 1/5/08, Rating: 0
RE: Too funny
By Borkil on 1/5/2008 8:38:17 PM , Rating: 2
so just because blu-ray capability was built into the ps3, blu-ray is tell you the truth that is retarded. That's like saying "Oh the 360 has a dvd drive and i find the 360 to have an unfriendly interface. Therefore dvds must suck!" There's really no reason to bring in the fact that the ps3 is not cool/fun/or anything else enjoyable. That just turns this into a console war.

Saving HDDVD
By bebito on 1/6/2008 2:46:24 PM , Rating: 2
I own the HD add-on for the 360 but am a supporter of BluRay, I've watched both side by side and titles look better in BluRay for the most part, there are a couple that did not (I have almost 200 HD Disks now).
HD is cheaper but the quality is inferior 1080i. BluRay's cost are almost the same with the HDDVD player of similar specs. Region coding is not an issue to me and probably to most people so that argument for the most part is moot.

If MS wants to save HD DVD then offer a free internal drive upgrade to all XBox 360 owners instead of giving $100's of millions of your money to the studios. BluRay is winning the war because of the PS3, with the 360's install base it would be an interesting race.

As a side note I do hope one of them fails quickly and dual format does not succeed. I want everyone putting their development money in one place so it can become better, faster and cheaper like DVD did.. funny I have seen DVD players that are less costly than the movies now.


By Comdrpopnfresh on 1/6/2008 11:25:27 PM , Rating: 2
Betamax ftw!

I hope this is it!
By AlmostExAMD on 1/7/2008 9:23:01 AM , Rating: 2
I stopped buying dvd's to add to my collection a while back as i wanted to move to High Definition, Problem is I just aint buying those either until one format wins outright. Either that or all studios support both formats and allow players that can read both, Until then the market is stagnant in my opinion, With the majority of folks sitting on the sidelines with money ready to spend, Not willing to fork over their hard earned cash only to have their collection go the way of the dinosaur.
The studios must know this, The sooner the problem is solved the better.

By valkator on 1/7/2008 7:36:06 PM , Rating: 2
Well don't forget about the lossless audio. On my Huge JBL system with crown amps.. my theater sounds way better on HD-DVD or Blu Ray. Dvd is decent but you can't beat the lossless audio.

As predicted...
By Mach Omega on 1/6/08, Rating: 0
Bla Bla
By BuffDaddySmurf on 1/5/08, Rating: -1
RE: Bla Bla
By BillyBatson on 1/5/2008 3:42:20 AM , Rating: 2
i have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to upscaling. I have seen low and high end DVD players upscale, I have even seen the HD players upscale, and they do not come close to the same movie on the HD format. Terminator 2 on DVD upscale looked no where near as good as the version for blue ray and transformers and NIN Beside You In Time looked no where near upscaled as they did on HD-DVD.
The point is DVDs are still great and I will continue to buy them but if I had an HD player and the prices of the movies were the same (and there was just 1 format) I would buy the HD version every time Even at a price premium for the movie 9/10 i would go for the HD version.

RE: Bla Bla
By Spyvie on 1/5/2008 3:58:14 AM , Rating: 2
Upscaling players can look pretty good, certainly very watchable, but nowhere near HD picture quality.

If you have an HDTV and all you've ever seen is upscaled content... then ignorance is bliss... but if you compare them side by side you will see a difference.

RE: Bla Bla
By valkator on 1/7/2008 7:37:42 PM , Rating: 2
Well don't forget about the lossless audio. On my Huge JBL system with crown amps.. my theater sounds way better on HD-DVD or Blu Ray. Dvd is decent but you can't beat the lossless audio.

sorry i chose the wrong spot when I posted earlier.

"You can bet that Sony built a long-term business plan about being successful in Japan and that business plan is crumbling." -- Peter Moore, 24 hours before his Microsoft resignation
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