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Plastics bottles in environmentalist crosshairs.

"We have wished, we ecofreaks, for a disaster or for a social change to come and bomb us into the Stone Age, where we might live like Indians in our valley, with our localism, our appropriate technology, our gardens, our homemade religion -- guilt-free at last!" 


    -- Environmentalist author Stewart Brand


A year ago, I wrote a column decrying the ruinous effects environmental legislation was having on large civic engineering projects in the U.S.  In past decades, environmental activism has blocked countless dams, bridges, and factories, but today, a new milestone was reached. Citing global warming concerns, the California Attorney General's Office today announced a plan to protect citizens by blocking construction of a major new industrial facility.

What is this new terror of pollution the state of California considers too deadly to build? A massive oil refinery? A vast strip mine? A toxic waste dump perhaps?

None of the above. It's a bottling plant . . . and it's bottling water.

The plant is sponsored by Nestle Waters North America, which has been trying for several years to get the project approved. Their original plan was to bottle a million gallons a day, but opposition from the Sierra Club forced the design to be scaled back to half that.  Now the State Attorney General, Jerry Brown, says the plant may have serious effects on global warming, and he will sue to prevent construction from proceeding until those effects are fully evaluated. 

Brown says, "It takes massive quantities of oil to produce plastic water bottles and to ship them in diesel trucks across the United States."  According to Brown, the consequences of all these plastic bottles are "unknown" and must be subjected to further study.  Nestle, which had already completed a previous environmental impact assessment, declined to fight the decision.

A new assessment is expected to take two or three years. In the meantime the plant -- and the people it would have employed -- are on hold.

Some of you may find this story amusing. I find it terrifying. How is a state -- or a nation -- expected to maintain a healthy economy and manufacture all the products needed for modern society, when even something as innocuous as bottling water is now considered too risky? If putting water into plastic bottles is too dangerous, do cars and computers even have a chance? Will we let China and India manufacture all our goods for us? How will we pay for them, when the U.S. no longer produces anything they want to buy? Where does it end?

The Roman Empire ruled the known world for five centuries; its fall plunged Europe into a thousand years of darkness. Ultimately, that fall was caused by nothing more than a change in cultural philosophy; a loss of the pride in their civilization and its accomplishments.  Could we be seeing signs of the same sickness today? Is Western civilization doomed once again?

Environmentalism has devolved from its original roots into a hatred of modern industrial society and a hatred of all mankind's works.  Where we once proudly built cities and farms to civilize the wilderness, we're now told to minimize our "footprint" on a planet far too good for the likes of us.  And our most promising scientific and technological advances -- genetic engineering, nuclear power, nanotech -- are on the hit list of every environmental group.   Like the Romans, we no longer have pride in what made us great.

Fifty years ago, half the manufactured goods in the world were made in the U.S. Half! But since the '60 spawned a tide of ever-more restrictive environmental legislation, manufacturing output has declined continuously.  Those regulations began with good intentions, but they're no longer being used to protect human health, but as a tool to roll back the industrial revolution.

Today, manufacturing is a small part of the U.S. economy.  Production of vital resources such as metals, chemicals, and even electronics and medicines are carried out elsewhere.  Four fifths of the nation's GDP is now services... services increasingly being sold overseas to countries which actually produce something.



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Bottled Water
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/31/2008 7:23:47 AM , Rating: 5
I wouldn't consider myself an eco-nut, but I find bottled water bottles wasteful and expensive.

I simply use a nalgene bottle and tap water. Quick, cheap, and refillable -- I use the same one for running/hiking/backpacking.




RE: Bottled Water
By truk007 on 7/31/2008 7:38:55 AM , Rating: 2
Oooo... Beware the evil BPA-laden plastic bottles of Nalgene. It's going to get you!


RE: Bottled Water
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2008 8:31:44 AM , Rating: 3
BPA?

Do you mean bisphenol-A? Polycarbonate bottles like Nalgene are suspected to leach that when exposed to strong sunlight, but as long as you keep it in your backpack you're probably safe. Its not a carcinogen, but is a hormone disruptor.

Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) and Polystyrene (PS) respectively have been shown to leach di-2-ehtylhexyl phthalate (DEHP) and styrene, both dual carcinogen/hormone disruptors.

As to Polyethylene terephthalate (PET or PETE), the most commonly used water bottle plastic, there has been much erroneous concern stemming from a grad student study in the 1990s, which suggested that di(2-ethylhexyl) adipate (DEHA) was leached by PET bottles and that it was carcinogenic. It is inconclusive whether DEHA was indeed leached, but DEHA is not generally considered a human carcinogen.

However, there is cause for some concern with PET bottles as they have been found in a few international studies, including a major 2003 Italian study to leach DEHP. The studies indicated that time is a primary factor, but I strongly suspect that sunlight played a much larger role.

Anyways, I agree with the original OP that bottled water is wasteful. Just buy a water bottle and be done with it. Its also kinda a scam -- why would you pay so much for something that's just city water. Most bottle "spring" water is just bottled city water.

...As far as the cancer/hormonal risks, if you run your water through a Brita filter before drinking it, the chemicals remove by the charcoal filtration system likely offset any increase from plastic leachage, as city water already has a variety of low levels of carcinogens and a healthy soup of pharmaceuticals.


RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 8:37:50 AM , Rating: 4
> "Anyways, I agree with the original OP that bottled water is wasteful"

Absolutely! And thus it must be banned.

This freedom thing is overrrated anyway. Allowing people to buy wasteful goods must be prevented at all costs. The next thing you know, people will be taking trips just for the sheer joy of it.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 8:53:10 AM , Rating: 1
And people will want to waste vast amounts of energy to:
- stay cool indoors!
- sit around playing pointless games when they could be doing work as a community activist!
- go to giant buildings to see talking motion pictures!
- go to theme parks and ride rides!

MY GOD THE HORROR OF IT ALL!


RE: Bottled Water
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/31/2008 9:31:16 AM , Rating: 5
Well the key difference between those examples and drinking tap water out a bottle versus tap water out of a bottled water bottle from Nestle is that it requires you to adopt no change in lifestyle. Virtually anywhere you can get water bottles in the U.S., there's a clean tap water source. There's little cost to buying a plastic bottle.

I can see wastefulness if it serves a point. It might not be glorious but at least it serves a point. Wastefulness without a point is what bothers me.

As to the Masher op I agree that it should not be banned, as that's draconian, but I wish people would stop being so lazy on their own volition...


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 9:39:10 AM , Rating: 3
So YOU don't buy bottled water. If I want to, I should be able to. I should not be unable to buy bottled water simply because you feel its wasteful.


RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/08, Rating: 0
RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 11:23:24 AM , Rating: 2
> "Since it bothers you, I suppose your the one to decide whats wasteful and pointless ?"

He's already said he doesn't favor a government ban, so I'll give him a bye on this. Personally, I feel the same way about pop music and professional sports as he does about bottled water...but I certainly support the people's right to spend their money as they wish.


RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/08, Rating: -1
RE: Bottled Water
By 4play on 7/31/2008 4:24:59 PM , Rating: 4
Would you give a damn if you woke up tomorrow and found out that they banned the environmentalist's right to protest?


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 7/31/08, Rating: -1
RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/2008 7:42:46 AM , Rating: 1
Believe it or not, yes I would.

People have died to defend the environmentalists right to protest. Its part of what made this country what it is.

There is a line, however, where protesting crosses into activism who's goal is to lower my personal standard of living and raise my personal cost of living. And that is where I take umbrage with the enviro wacko's.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 7/31/08, Rating: -1
RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 8/1/08, Rating: 0
RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/1/08, Rating: 0
RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/2008 7:49:43 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Really to put it bluntly the fact that if we couldn't bottle water you would feel sad is unbelievably .....LIBERAL...


Look kid just give it up.

You could not GET further from Liberal than what I said. Activism under the guise of global warming conspiring to pull a product out of the hands of the American consumer. And you call being against this Liberal ?

Strike three, your out kid. Stop wasting my time.


RE: Bottled Water
By robinthakur on 8/1/2008 5:55:54 AM , Rating: 3
Oh Gawd, please don't ban our SUV's and bottled water?? How will we live without them, it makes us so sad. Ahem.

The point I think Jason Mac was trying to make is that he doesn't favour a ban on individual freedoms but that people should be aware that the bottle housing the tap water if not re-used will stay in a land-fill for quite a long time. I think that regardless of your political slants nobody wants to live next to an ever increasing land-fill?

I personally used to drink bottled water from time to time (The Fiji one) but now order tap in restaurants and just filter it at home to satisfy my own paranoia that the perfectly drinkable tap water might harm me more than my general diet of Champagne.


RE: Bottled Water
By Solandri on 8/1/2008 8:49:20 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
> "Since it bothers you, I suppose your the one to decide whats wasteful and pointless ?"

He's already said he doesn't favor a government ban, so I'll give him a bye on this. Personally, I feel the same way about pop music and professional sports as he does about bottled water...but I certainly support the people's right to spend their money as they wish.

Well, a difference here is that in the vast majority of cases, bottled water is unnecessary. In fact, often the tap water is better than the bottled water (I'm very picky about my water, and I can usually taste the difference). So pop music and sports are things people want because they want it. But bottled water is often something people want because they mistakenly think it's superior.

Perhaps government regulation isn't the best answer. But surely some sort of education program to convince people that the tap water isn't that bad would help? Or barring that, an education program to demonstrate to people that buying your own reverse osmosis filter is in the long run a lot cheaper than buying bottled water. That's all Dasani and Aquafina are - bottled reverse osmosis filtered water. I'm all for letting people do things by choice, but saying they should be able to do wasteful things based on popular misconception strikes me as silly.


RE: Bottled Water
By vanka on 7/31/2008 4:12:54 PM , Rating: 5
I have not posted here in a long time but JasonMick's comments have finally gotten to me.

quote:
I can see wastefulness if it serves a point.


This is a contradiction. If something serves a "point", it is by definition not wasteful. It maybe inefficient or frivolous in someone's eyes, but to the person/people engaged in that activity it is not wasteful.

The great thing about America and the capitalist system was that people made up their own minds on what was wasteful and what was useful without undue government intervention. If I believe that a certain product or service is wasteful (organic food, bottled water, TV, radio, amusement parks, auto racing, Hollywood award shows, $4 cups of coffee, etc) I don't support it with my money. If enough people find it useful, then it will thrive; otherwise it disappears. What I may consider wasteful may not be wasteful to you and vice versa.

Let the free market decide what is wasteful. I personally believe that 80% of the time bottle water is unnecessary; but there are those times where I'm at a location where the local tap water is undrinkable or unavailable; it's during those times that a nice cold bottle of water starts making a lot of sense.

I understand that Jason then writes that this ban is too draconian; but then again should the AG have the power to impose this or a similar ban based on science that we are barely starting to understand and is likely flawed. Do we really need to spend years and millions of dollars to find out whether an industrial plant may increase the global temperatures by 0.00000001% or 0.00000002% before giving it the go ahead?


RE: Bottled Water
By Yossarian22 on 8/1/2008 5:10:29 PM , Rating: 1
Ah his comments got to you? Bully for you. The irrational dislike of Jason Mick on this site is semi-amusing, but at least have to decency to say something slightly meaningful.

For starters, wastefulness just means inefficient. That is really it.
wasteful: uneconomical; inefficient in use of time and effort and materials.

The rest of you post is just stating something pathologically obvious: "inefficiency is relative". Do you want a pat on the back for saying something an eight year old could grasp? It is a bloody OPINION you overbearing self-righteous moron. He has one, and it is different from yours. He even said that he did not want to enforce his opinion with law. Get over yourself, deal with the fact that other people have differing opinions, and move the hell on.


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 8/1/2008 11:31:51 PM , Rating: 2
And you call him a self-righteous moron? The point is that some people want to make their opinions, as you correctly identify them to be, law. For example, stopping bottled water production because, by some peoples standards, its wasteful.

That is why this bothers some people. If people were minding their own business, as you suggest, then none of this would be an issue.


RE: Bottled Water
By Yossarian22 on 8/2/08, Rating: 0
RE: Bottled Water
By Korvon on 7/31/2008 4:45:45 PM , Rating: 3
I used to live in Kamloops BC. During the spring and fall the run off and rain storms would make the water in the city undrinkable, even after boiling for x amounts of minutes. What were we supposed to do if we didn't have clean bottled water to drink?
My point is not everyone in North America has access to clean drinking water.


RE: Bottled Water
By arazok on 7/31/2008 9:29:46 AM , Rating: 5
It’s quite simple to see where this goes…

Currently we are banning bottled water, plastic bags, herbisides etc. in the name of the environment. Of course, this is a cause with no end, so the next steps will be to regulate the design of goods. We already have legislation requiring minimal power consumption for electronics in standby mode (which I don’t think it necessarily unreasonable). How about banning plastic in packaging? Regulating the total cardboard content of a pack of batteries?

The inevitable end will be requiring any product being sold to under go an environmental assessment, where a sea of beurocrats will dictate how a product may be packaged, or even if it may be sold. It will seem like a great idea, but the reality is that it will make it impossible to bring any product to market without undergoing years of red tape. Companies won’t bother, and the consumer suffers.

The beauty of this is that while our standard of living will sink, people won’t even be aware of it. You literally won’t know what you’re missing.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 9:40:45 AM , Rating: 2
Very good post.


RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2008 10:49:31 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
herbisides etc. in the name of the environment.


DDT was a perfect example.

DDT, for those who don't know, was the best mosquito killer EVER made by man. It was banned because some scientist claimed it weakened the shells of some species of bird nobody cares about.

Millions, repeat, MILLIONS of human beings in Africa and other third world nations DIED of mallaria and other mosquito born illnesses because of the DDT ban.

And, predictably, years later it was prooven that DDT infact did NOT harm the envirnment or those bird eggs.

I could never EVER consider myself an environmentalist because at its very core, environmentalism has prooven time and time again that human life shouldn't be valued. And I can't hold to that.


RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 11:26:56 AM , Rating: 5
> "It was banned because some scientist claimed it weakened the shells of some species of bird nobody cares about."

It's interesting to note that those nations which never banned DDT and continued to use it never saw any decline in bird species from its use.

A professor at my college kept a bag of DDT in his office. Every year at the start of his organic chem class, he would eat a large spoonful to show his students just how innocuous it was.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 12:00:26 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
A professor at my college kept a bag of DDT in his office. Every year at the start of his organic chem class, he would eat a large spoonful to show his students just how innocuous it was.


That's awesome.


RE: Bottled Water
By Polynikes on 8/5/2008 12:09:51 AM , Rating: 2
Haha, I thought the same. :)


RE: Bottled Water
By just4U on 7/31/2008 12:41:00 PM , Rating: 2
Education is the key to stopping some of the maddness that surrounds environmental policies. However, Not to the point where there is total disregard. We don't want to go
down that road again either.


RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2008 12:57:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's interesting to note that those nations which never banned DDT and continued to use it never saw any decline in bird species from its use.


Of course not ! Once again, Environmentalism fails to grasp common sense. Mosquitos feed off and can infect birds too ! Especially baby birds who don't yet have full feathers.

It just saddens me. I mean, if you KNEW huge numbers of people could die because of your decision, don't you think you would bother to research and make SURE first ??

It takes like twenty years to get life saving drugs approved. But bring up the environment and we're fast track banning pestacides and refridgerants left and right ! With NO accountability built into the process !


RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 1:01:38 PM , Rating: 2
> "I mean, if you KNEW huge numbers of people could die because of your decision, don't you think you would bother to research and make SURE first ??"

Maybe, maybe not:
quote:
“If you haven’t given voluntary human extinction much thought before, the idea of a world with no people in it may seem strange. But, if you give it a chance, I think you might agree that the extinction of Homo sapiens would mean survival for millions, if not billions, of Earth-dwelling species . . . Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental.”
- Wild Earth Magazine, Summer 1991, by Dave Foreman, founder of Earth First!


RE: Bottled Water
By Spuke on 7/31/2008 1:57:11 PM , Rating: 3
What I don't understand is why these people aren't committing mass suicides to "do their part", so to speak. if they truly believe they are the scourge of the Earth, then why is it ok for them to still be alive? And why do they keep having children?


RE: Bottled Water
By arazok on 7/31/2008 2:43:26 PM , Rating: 4
Since these people are environmental saints, the problem is OTHER people’s existence. “If only everyone were like me, they wouldn’t all have to die!”

Many of them don’t have children, thank god.

I pin all my hopes for the future on the fact that liberals, being perpetually selfish, don’t have nearly as many children as conservatives. Another generation or two and the theory of evolution should self correct the problem.


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 7/31/2008 3:35:38 PM , Rating: 2
Careful in what you encourage; suicide lives right next door to suicide bombing, and I see every bit as much zealotry in hard-core environmentalists as I do Islamic fascist movements. Eco-terrorists just firebomb Hummer dealerships today; at some point in the future, you never know if they may drive car bombs in to evil, polluting, capitalist shopping malls.


RE: Bottled Water
By Spuke on 7/31/2008 5:56:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Careful in what you encourage; suicide lives right next door to suicide bombing
The only problem is they want US to conform to what they want and suicide bombings will only make them criminals and the target of our hate. So I doubt they would go that route.


RE: Bottled Water
By PitViper007 on 7/31/2008 4:43:54 PM , Rating: 2
Well someone has to stick around to organize our extinction don't they? And it may take a long time for the job to be finished, so they just HAVE to have kids to carry on the cause, right? RIGHT???


RE: Bottled Water
By Jim28 on 8/1/2008 12:37:02 PM , Rating: 2
My organic prof was not that brave. But he spoke out all of the time about how dumb the ban was.

I really hated organic chemistry BTW.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 7/31/08, Rating: -1
RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 8/1/2008 1:25:22 AM , Rating: 3
Ahh KC77 I have missed you the most. Have you had your rabies shot this month ?

SO basically its better for millions of people to die than to use DDT which MIGHT have some effect on the environment ?

You call me a liar but offer no proof of your own.


RE: Bottled Water
By Jim28 on 8/1/2008 12:38:55 PM , Rating: 2
That is his MO.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/1/08, Rating: -1
RE: Bottled Water
By mindless1 on 8/1/2008 6:23:31 PM , Rating: 2
You imply it has to be one way or the other when, if DDT would have had the intended life-saving effect in reality, they still had the option of using something else regardless of whether the other chemical was less effective.

If THEY considered these deaths all that important, wouldn't they have used enough other chemicals to stop it? The answer is not as simple as you suggest.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/1/2008 7:15:30 PM , Rating: 1
You've missed me?? Awww well I've been here the entire time. I'm glad you've responded and have stopped running.

Hmm let me provide links:

Here's one from Cornell:
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carb...

Here's another from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Effects_on_human_...

Here's another from the CDC
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts35.html#bookmark05

There's is no might in it at all. It has an effect on the environment. So now that I've provided backup care to provide a link that shows DDT has no effect on the environment whatsoever ???

I'm glad you're back. I miss my punching bag.


RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/2008 10:56:05 AM , Rating: 2
Congrats. You can use Google.

Not ONE of those links proves DDT hurts the enviroment in any significant fashion. In ALL of the tests, they refer to a study where humans and rats ingested large doses of DDT ORALLY and observed the results.

Last time I checked, spraying mosquitoes for DDT didn't involve shoving large amounts of poison into mouths of rodents and birds.

The problem with studies like that is they use large doses on a rat or rodent to achieve a toxicity level that will NEVER OCCUR naturally in an ecosystem. If I fed a rat 50 grams of bubble gum every day, bubble gum would become a toxin. So what ?

Also noticed the studies are filled with vague cryptic terminology like " may " and " probably resulting " or " likely the cause ". We're talking human lives at stake here, if they had ABSOLUTE proof why be unsure ?

Also note DDT is still being used in some countries today. Tell me KC77, are their wildlife populations extinct ? Are their animal and bird species dying en-mass ? Where are the ecological disasters please.

In ending, I never actually said DDT had " no effect what-so-ever on the environment ". You seem to be saying any effect however, justifies the useless death of millions of people that would have been prevented. Wacko's like you disgust me. Just come out and admit you hate people KC77 and wish the earth was free of our filthy existence.

quote:
I'm glad you're back. I miss my punching bag.


I miss your special brand of comedy.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/2/2008 12:30:13 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you...I'm glad that furthering your own knowledge is something that you hate. I provided links because people like you just talk out of your bum, it's not based on anything factual, just mindless ranting.

To top it all off you take your mindless ranting and spew it like it's fact. It isn't. Those links if you even bothered to read them go into environmental effects. There's no may in it. They make clear decisive statements about the effect on it's surroundings. You just chose to ignore them.

quote:
I never actually said DDT had " no effect what-so-ever on the environment ".


So now you're playing on words because you opened your yapper and didn't bother to research before you went on your normally mindless diatribe. How is that anyone's problem but your own??? You are either going to tell the truth or not.... but if you don't just prepare for someone to call you on it.

quote:
If I fed a rat 50 grams of
The rats weren't fed 50 grams the measurements are mg/kg, which is the same as ppm (parts per million) it's far smaller than your average piece of gum. But I couldn't expect you to know that could I ??

quote:
Wacko's like you disgust me.
I'm glad I can be of assistance. It means I'm doing my job of keeping the idiots from overtaking the village.

Oh BTW if you want to read an article about DDT affecting those foreign countries you might want to look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1333875.stm


RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 8/2/2008 1:37:56 PM , Rating: 2
> "The rats weren't fed 50 grams the measurements are mg/kg, which is the same as ppm (parts per million)..."

You're a bit confused here. The measurement you indicate is the amount of DDT absorbed into body tissues, not the total amount fed.

Studies on many animals show no effects whatsoever from DDT even in concentrations far above what one could find in the environment. For example, Durham, et al. (1963) fed rhesus monkeys a diet of DDT of 5000 ppm for 7.5 years. That's a total dietary intake of about 4.5 kilograms (600 grams/yr). No tumors or adverse effects were noted.

> "if you want to read an article about DDT affecting those foreign countries you might want to look at this"

Congratulations on finding one of the most discredited epidemiological studies of the past 20 years. First of all, when children from a poor nation such as India emigrate to a place like Belgium, their diet tends to improve dramatically, which affects puberty. Secondly, this particular study didn't even test the correlation of early puberty to the actual levels of DDT found in those children. The report states:
quote:
Bourguinon and his team now plan to check whether immigrant children who go into early puberty have higher levels of pesticide than those who do not
Once they actually did so, their results were negative.

Here's a few more such studies, which have all discounted the environmental effects of DDT on human development:

quote:
There was no effect on the ages at which pubertal stages were attained...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10753247

quote:
We find no association [between] Tanner stages on onset of puberty for either chemical [DDE or PCB]

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/IHUB_downtime02.htm

quote:
No associations between prenatal exposure to any of the DDT compounds and any outcome measure were seen.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcg...

And finally, you ignore the most telling point of all. Foods naturally contain a mix of thousands of different chemicals, roughly half of which are carcinogenic or teratogenic in large doses. We still eat those foods anyway. Why? Because the risk is trivial, compared to the benefits of eating.

The same goes for DDT. The benefits of suppressing countless insect-borne diseases far outweigh the risks. There are no alternatives to DDT which are anywhere near as effective. Additionally, as those chemicals have a lower efficacy and duration, they must be applied far more often, in larger doses. That means far more environmental overhead from manufacturing and applying them.

DDT was truly one of man's most useful and benign inventions. It was banned due to environmental groups playing on fear and ignorance. Luckily, many policy experts and even entire nations are now changing their minds.

quote:
The tide of public opinion and world usage is changing for DDT. The World Health Organization has recently reconsidered and now endorsed the use of DDT for household spraying
http://www.philsoc.org/2007Spring/2216minutes.html

Tanzania, which banned DDT shortly after the US, recently lifted it to fight malaria:

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_ind...

Medical scientists call DDT ban unethical:

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=9822

DDT ban reconsidered as West Nile cases soar:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990...


RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 8/2/2008 2:36:27 PM , Rating: 2
Game. Set. MASHED!


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/2/2008 8:46:15 PM , Rating: 2
Back off bottom feeder I'm going to respond.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/2/2008 9:23:00 PM , Rating: 3
Hey masher glad to see you respond. Unlike Reclaimer I like it when you and I debate.

quote:
You're a bit confused here. The measurement you indicate is the amount of DDT absorbed into body tissues, not the total amount fed.
Nope not confused I didn't outline total amount fed that study (I think you are talking about the one from cornell) was using one time dosages. Also I clearly said that mammals aren't affected nearly as much as marine life which is true. Nor have I said that it's effects in mammals was catastrophic.

quote:
Studies on many animals show no effects whatsoever


This is going to be a tit for tat thing. For every study that you can show me that says it doesn't I can show one that says it does. So how are we going to debate this?....Seriously.. I want to know.

quote:
Congratulations on finding one of the most discredited epidemiological studies
I only provided one just in case. I don't want to give my whole hand away from the get go. Especially not with Reclaimer.

Here goes:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts35.html#bookmark05

Department of Health and Human Services goes over the effect of DDT in humans and the environment. Remember Reclaimer said it had "NO" effect on the environment and that's what my sticking point is.

quote:
quote: There was no effect on the ages at which pubertal stages were attained... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10753247


That study is on DDE not DDT. DDT can degrade into DDE and DDD, but chemically they are different.

The same site that you used shows the actual study that says DDT does have an effect:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12500164

Here's another that says it does:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=645&page...

quote:
And finally, you ignore the most telling point of all. Foods naturally contain a mix of thousands of different chemicals, roughly half of which are carcinogenic or teratogenic in large doses. We still eat those foods anyway. Why? Because the risk is trivial, compared to the benefits of eating.
I don't ignore it I said that in mammals.....especially humans it takes ALOT MORE...DDT than in other animals. I'll say this again my sticking point is to the claim that it has no effect, which is false.

I'll provide more links in minute.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/2/2008 11:38:01 PM , Rating: 2
Here's another study done by Berkley showing DDT increases the risk of breast cancer:
http://www.ehponline.org/members/2007/10260/10260....

This one is pretty recent. Believe it's from 2007.


RE: Bottled Water
By robinthakur on 7/31/2008 9:22:19 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Its not a carcinogen, but is a hormone disruptor.


That's ok then...Whilst I do worry about the fact that most of these plastic bottles are not recycled but instead fill the landfills, unless you have drinking fountains everywhere or carry your own water bottle, banning it seems really petty.

I'd also like to see governments of the world reward for recycling rather than punish for not recycling. Anyone whose successfully trained a dog will tell you that rewards work far better than punishments. Besides it goes counter to the human psychology of more more more to suddenly go to less less less and is, hence, doomed to failure.

I use a Brita water filter myself.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 9:36:57 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Anyone whose successfully trained a dog will tell you that rewards work far better than punishments.


Not really. Is paying kids who get good grades a good way to get them to get good grades? No. Is giving kids a medal for coming in last place helping them? No. Is rewarding the lazy and stupid kids by dumbing down the schools so the lazy and stupid kids don't feel stupid doing them any good? No.

You should reward those who excel. And punish those who don't follow the rules. People are not dogs.

Yes I know you were talking about recycling, but your statement was flawed. I don't believe anyone should be rewarded or punished for recycling or not recycling though. Let people see the benefits of it themselves. That being less trash that gets dumped in a land fill.


RE: Bottled Water
By fk49 on 7/31/2008 11:54:32 AM , Rating: 3
You would be incredibly surprised at how much a small reward or punishment can affect the situation here, and you may be underestimating the pro-activeness of some people.

I'm visiting China right now, and within the last year, a nationwide plastic bottle recycling program has been implemented wherein the government will give people .10rmb (about $.015) for each bottle. The result? Hundreds of thousands of people, previously nothing but impoverished beggars, roam city streets with huge bags, picking up empty bottles, digging through trash cans, and even stalking tourists until they finish their drink. Thus, the poor are able to feed themselves, and bottles are all properly recycled.

By the way, as another part of the program, all stores now must charge .20rmb per plastic bag, and encourage customers to bring their own reusable bags, which they do. Draconian measures? Perhaps, but it gets the job done.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 12:06:42 PM , Rating: 2
And parts of America do the same with cans and bottles.

I never said don't encourage recycling. I only quoted one line of his post and based my comments off that.

However my view on recycling though is that it should be made easy and convenient. Not use tax payer money to reward people for doing it. In my parents neighborhood in Florida there are special collection days for recycling. So you just throw all your cans and bottles in the bin and take it out on the given day. No taking your cans and bottles anywhere yourself to turn them in and get your deposit back. Simple. Convenient. So nearly everyone does it.

And any beggar in America can pick up cans and bottles around town and take them to the local recycling center for money. Granted you need a fair amount to get any real amount of money. But recycling companies aren't in it for the good they're doing. They're in it to make money.


RE: Bottled Water
By geddarkstorm on 7/31/2008 4:29:43 PM , Rating: 3
Well, in a sense those who go around grabbing up garbage to take it to be recycled are doing a job: a tangible good to society. Paying them a fraction of what you'd pay someone in a real job is no bad thing--so there's nothing wrong with tax payer money going to pay those "jobs", as tax payer money goes to pay many government jobs at far higher salaries that do very little to nigh nothing tangible for us.


RE: Bottled Water
By robinthakur on 8/1/2008 5:48:56 AM , Rating: 2
FC, we do actually agree, so stop being pedantic.

I would never advocate rewards for bad behaviour or for failure, the trick is to reward good behaviour, thus reinforcing it. This does not preclude any form of punishment, I'm just saying that its human nature to respond better to rewards than punishments.

I am aware than human beings are not dogs, thanks and I don't think there's a need to politicise everything by the way as one can see your true blue anti-"liberal" agenda coming through as if I'm not also a Conservative here. If anything people are far more like Sheep in the way they follow others and rarely set themselves apart from the herd.


RE: Bottled Water
By mindless1 on 8/1/2008 6:53:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not really. Is paying kids who get good grades a good way to get them to get good grades? No.
Acknowledging that the child did more work and should benefit from it at least a little in the short term (children don't really grasp long term benefit as they haven't even been alive long yet) is the only fair solution. Whether it be pay for grades or pay not claimed as compensation for grades is mere semantics.

quote:
Is giving kids a medal for coming in last place helping them? No

Yes, it quite possibly can. What happens if you make someone thing they are a "loser"? It degrades their self esteem, they often don't bother to try anymore because they think they can't "win". Have you never noticed this mindset among much of the lower class in the US? It is not their lack of ability nor unwillingness to work (in many cases they work quite a bit harder than those who make more money), it is their belief through years of conditioning that they can't.

quote:
Is rewarding the lazy and stupid kids by dumbing down the schools so the lazy and stupid kids don't feel stupid doing them any good? No.


How little you seem to understand. Everyone, children included, do what they preceive to benefit them. If a child isn't making the effort and is as you say "lazy", either they were conditioned to think their effort wouldn't matter, or even worse I have heard plenty of stories from my aunt (a school teacher) about poor family environments, poor nutrition. The kids get their only good meal each day at school. Tell me how well you could function if you were in a poor state of health. I'm reminded that you are fairly young, wouldn't understand if you have been healthy but eventually everyone who doesn't die of a sudden accident will find out how degraded health effects them.

Stupid kids? Maybe this attitude is part of why they fail, by not recognizing that not all children are in the same situation, not all have to deal with the same stresses in life, and not all have to be subjected to the kind of labeling you did with the term "stupid". Most underachievers just need the same things as other kids, a chance to catch up developmentally by removing the problems in their lives. It's easy to forget that children can't very well fend for themselves, if their parents aren't doing a good job parenting that can be devastating. Calling the child stupid or lazy, or the result of your thoughts as they effect how you might treat them, will only cause them more harm.

quote:
You should reward those who excel. And punish those who don't follow the rules. People are not dogs.

And yet above you wrote that we shouldn't reward those who excel (pay for grades). Punishment can be effective but only if it is designed to have a truely positive outcome, not just harm or teach a lesson in a hateful way. The most important thing is to understand why someone did something wrong, what their motivation was and then help them meet their needs, needs which often a child won't fully understand. Looking down upon the child mostly tends to isolate them and break down communication when what they needed most was understanding of how to change their behavior to meet their needs. The child has to be presented with the possibility of having MORE, a positive outcome instead of just some kind of punishment. Certainly there are limits, that "more" comes from their work, not a reward for being bad.

I think people should be rewarded or punished but not directly tied to their recycling, rather by taxation of goods, that tax going towards the recycling programs to deal with the packaging and goods disposal. Let people then decide if they want to pay more for certain packaging and it's environmental impact, or to instead do something like reuse a refillable water bottle by filling it with tap water.

People will not "see the benefits of it themselves" because they can't see the city dump out their bedroom window. They're not sitting around thinking about a mountain of garbage somewhere and rightly so, because even if someone tries to be more environmentally friendly, there is an unavoidable impact unless we all revert to living in caves and huts, weaving our clothes, walking and using spears again, etc. Nobody wants that so the remaining question is do we have the right to leave the planet worse off than we found it?

I suspect you don't realize how good you had it as a child, and want to claim your successes in life are entirely your doing, instead of accepting that nobody wants to be looked down upon, to not achieve all those popular things like enough money, enough power/control over their lives. Nobody, as a child, starts out wanting to be the garbage man when they grow up and any child would do what they could to have want they wanted instead of only they are believing it is possible.

Instead of blaming the individual alone, look at the context, what else is different in their life than in the life of someone more successful. Except for birth defects or disease, nobody is born stupid and lazy. Something happened to make them that way or at least what you are claiming is stupid or lazy. Attack the cause, not the effect, not the child.


RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 11:29:05 AM , Rating: 1
> "Anyone whose successfully trained a dog will tell you that rewards work far better than punishments"

You haven't trained many dogs. Positive reinforcement works best for encouraging behaviours, but for discouraging behaviours, nothing works better than negative reinforcement.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 11:56:15 AM , Rating: 2
Tell that to the professor of the psychology course I took in college. She was like "Spanking only making kids want to be spanked more". I pissed her off a decent amount expressing my opinions of common psychology practices and beliefs.

At least she was hot and had huge tits. I gotta run. The girl I'm starting to see is gonna handcuff me and spank me with a riding crop.....wait.....


RE: Bottled Water
By onelittleindian on 7/31/2008 1:02:14 PM , Rating: 2
Big tits go a long way towards compensating for attitudes like that.


RE: Bottled Water
By Jim28 on 8/1/2008 12:42:01 PM , Rating: 2
Until they open their mouth that is.

At that point tuning out what they say be concentrating a foot below their head is essential.


RE: Bottled Water
By TomCorelis (blog) on 7/31/2008 12:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
Not sure what you're talking about with a lack of rewards... every couple months I get a nice $20 bill for turning my plastics and cans in to the local recyclers. I could toss all those water bottles into the trash to no ill response.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 8:03:12 AM , Rating: 2
Yes but you probably just don't buy it. Not demand that everyone else not buy it as well and prevent it from being sold altogether.


RE: Bottled Water
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 7/31/2008 8:03:41 AM , Rating: 2
Even still, the level of control and roadblocks exerted by these eco-nuts is appaling. The government needs to crack down and just tell them to deal with it.


RE: Bottled Water
By Reclaimer77 on 7/31/2008 10:35:05 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
The government needs to crack down and just tell them to deal with it.


Are you kidding ? The government LOVES it ! The government used to fight for control, now we have these idiots begging the government to take it. Of course they aren't going to " crack down ", why would they ? Bigger government, more expansive into the private sector, more tax revenue, more agendas and programs.

The LAST thing we should hope for is the government getting involved and " cracking down " on anything. A government that does as little as possible is the best one for the people of this nation.


RE: Bottled Water
By geddarkstorm on 7/31/2008 4:35:27 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately the government will probably never slim back down as things stand, at least anytime soon. It's become its own self perpetuating machine. "Oh, but these people /depend/ on the government, we can't cut back bureaucracy, for their sake. Rather, let's tax everyone more so more people will depend on the government!"


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 7/31/2008 10:00:15 PM , Rating: 1
This has got to be the biggest fallacy out there. When a road gets built who do you think builds it??? The government?? NO THE PRIVATE SECTOR DOES...The government takes your tax dollars and bids out the construction of all sorts of things. Who builds them?? the PRIVATE SECTOR, which in turn makes money for the engineers who buys their products from other business who in turn makes sure you aren't making Nike shoes but instead are building network switches and VOIP services. If our government truly slimmed down, something that democratic nor republican representatives truly want you wouldn't be able to get to work. That "government assistance" that you love to think only applies to people on welfare also applies to every government building, every road, every glass of water you drink, every football stadium, every restaurant, every piece of produce you pick up and eat, every time you watch TV, every time you turn on the radio, the government is everywhere. That is to say I would love government to be more efficient, but to shrink government just for the sake of doing so is stupid.

You nor anyone else could truly handle it if the government truly slimmed down across the board. Why do you think the government bailed out the banks caught in the housing scandal?? The necessary evil exists on both sides and that's the truth.

If you don't want to pay any taxes, your best bet would be to find an island in the middle of no where. That way when you want the internet you can build your own data network yourself.

The biggest expenditure in the US is the military BY FAR.. don't bother to pull up graphs showing military running second because for the last 8 years the war isn't even included within the budget that's supplementary meaning it's outside of the budget and on top of what is currently allocated for defense.

Did your kids go to school today?? Guess what that building, the school bus, and the teacher who taught your kid was paid by your tax dollars so that your kid, and many other children don't grow up to be idiots.

Hell while we are at it who the hell needs fireman or police?? Might was well free-ball it and beat the snot out of the next robber who takes your stuff. Although when he burns your house down who are you going to call?

If you are going to say I don't want to pay taxes at least be honest with yourself and tell the truth what you really mean to say is I want to spend my money on what I want and screw everything and everyone else. The only problem with that statement is that you don't live by yourself neither do I. So I guess everyone is screwed.

Don't you get it yet? The government's job is make you think that the reason why your taxes are high or your gas is $4.32 and rising is because of the homeless retard on welfare. If you can correlate a homeless bum on the street with Exxon Mobil I'll grab my popcorn now. The sad part is that some people actually believe it. Turn off the damn TV and actually go online and look at your state and federal budget.

Bitter cause your taxes keep rising??? Well who did you elect into office?? When was the last time you threatened your congressman to get what you want??? If you don't have the time, don't worry there are plenty of business who have the lobbying power to make the decision for you. Although when you pick up your IPod and wonder why your music is locked and copy protected onto the device don't ask anyone why that is but yourself.


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 8/1/2008 12:04:56 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The biggest expenditure in the US is the military BY FAR..


You accused of Masher of lying by means of excluding information you deemed important. Now you turn around and lie about the budget. Wars are transitory. Including all ongoing spending, it is still below a moving 45 year average of 5.5% of GDP, at 4% in 2007. You can correctly state that, of discretionary spending, defense spending dominates (barely!), but look at non-discretionary spending (Social Security and the mandatory entitlement programs), and defense spending is dwarfed. Social Security alone is a behemoth; SS + Medicare and Medicaid do, in fact, make up the bulk of federal spending.

Look further in to the future at the highly accurate Social Security projected costs, and defense spending actually will be an almost trivial component of the federal budget by 2030, and even moreso by 2050.

quote:
and the teacher who taught your kid was paid by your tax dollars so that your kid, and many other children don't grow up to be idiots.


Do you seriously believe it is in the interest of a government education system to educate the masses to a sufficient level that they could question their dominance? I'd say you are an excellent example of the government school system, with your assertion that no one could find work if not for the amazing generosity of federal spending programs. (I dare not ask you to explain how nations with far smaller federal footprints manage to prosper!)

quote:
You nor anyone else could truly handle it if the government truly slimmed down across the board.


Amazing how the US rapidly grew and prospered prior to the massive WW2 expansion of the federal government, or prior to the real arrival of the welfare state significantly later.

quote:
If you don't want to pay any taxes, your best bet would be to find an island in the middle of no where.


Or move to any of the experiencing rapidly growing prosperity after they did exactly what you said should not be possible (trimmed government to the bone) and lowered taxes to almost negligible levels. Examples from Eastern Europe, Hong Kong and several spots in the Middle East come to mind. To a lesser degree, the Irish Miracle also flies in the face of your "lies."

quote:
Bitter cause your taxes keep rising??? Well who did you elect into office??


Here in Florida, we voted by a strong margin (65%) for Amendment 1 earlier this year, a mandate for lower property taxes. Unfortunately, local municipalities have tried to raise taxes in other ways to compensate for it instead of carrying out the obvious will of the people -- we wanted less government spending. Anyone can take one look at governments across the state and see plenty of room for rationalization without service cuts. We also elected Charlie Crist, Republican, partly because, I think, we thought he'd a tough-on-crime, small-ish government type, who knelt at the church of the global warming only to appease liberals. Big mistake -- he was serious about his global warming bull.

Not sure what you think "threatening" elected representatives will get you though, asides from jail time. The real shame is that the Libertarian Party is stuffed full of as many local village idiots as it is rational folk, and they pull the LP's message astray in to areas that they could do better by ignoring. It's sad.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/1/2008 8:02:53 PM , Rating: 2
Where did I accuse masher of lying? I responded to Reclaimer. Please don't tell me masher is reclaimer because I actually like debating with masher.

Um, so because I've provided facts you've decided to add all of the other measures of spending together and and say "Ha .. you're wrong"..

You got anything better than that???

Do you live in the past or the future?? I don't. Care to share with me your time machine?

I'm talking about right now more precisely the last 5 years or so.
Also like I said before I listed that Defense runs second and with discretionary it runs higher. So where did I lie??? That's right I didn't.

Also if you are looking at the budget you might want to look at the next page, the one that outlaws spending by function. On that page you will see national defense running second like I said, before discretionary spending. So again where is the dishonesty ??

quote:
Examples from Eastern Europe, Hong Kong and several spots in the Middle East come to mind.


You wouldn't by any chance be looking at corporate income tax instead of income tax or total GDP taxes would you?..

OMG please tell me you aren't.

Let me provide a link this is taxes by GDP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...

Taxes in just about every industrialized country is higher than the US. How do you think they pay for that health care??

quote:

Amazing how the US rapidly grew and prospered prior to the massive WW2 expansion of the federal government, or prior to the real arrival of the welfare state significantly later.


WHAT SCHOOL DID YOU GO TO ????? THE DEPRESSION WAS BEFORE WW2...HELLO ARE YOU THERE?!?! If you went to a public school maybe we are worse off than I thought.

I'm not trying to attack you personally but come on please research.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/1/2008 8:33:51 PM , Rating: 2
Here's a link that looks at income taxes alone. Just in case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 8/2/2008 12:17:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Um, so because I've provided facts you've decided to add all of the other measures of spending together and and say "Ha .. you're wrong".. You got anything better than that???


Here is what you said originally:

quote:
The biggest expenditure in the US is the military BY FAR..


You either meant all other spending combined, which I assume you did not now that you realize how wrong you may be, or meant that military spending was "BY FAR" larger than any other single line item.

Just using information right out of Wikipedia for 2007, total military spending including the supplemental allocations was 673 billion. If you take Medicare and Medicaid together, as most people do as they perform similar functions, they ate almost 671 billion. Social Security ate 586 billion. Straight welfare ate 294 billion, with the total welfare state consuming a total of 1,551 trillion. Treat the military as a stand-alone entity from the operations overseas, and health care and social security both dwarf military spending.

Of course, it is convenient for you to weasel away from future budget obligations, because Social Security spending is about to balloon, as will Medicare spending as the baby boomers age. Meanwhile, all presidential hopefuls speak of winding down out overseas action. Anyone looking at budgeting, or economics, has to look to the future and not just the present situation to get a clear picture of where we stand. Economic analysis is all about rate of change, and the second order/derivative rate of change -- but of course, you don't seem interested in that.

quote:
Care to share with me your time machine?


In case you're suggesting the SS and Medicare spending boom is somehow difficult to predict, there is one way and one way only that it will be avoided if laws are not changed: a massive viral epidemic that slaughters the elderly, leaving the young unharmed. Otherwise, baby boomers steadily get older, one day at a time -- or do you need proof of time flowing forwards?

quote:
Taxes in just about every industrialized country is higher than the US. How do you think they pay for that health care??


My point was that nations can prosper quite fine without the government eating vast shares of GDP. You didn't address that at all. You just showed that some manage to do okay despite it. My same examples still stand. Hong Kong, which is a fairly independent entity from the rest of China, has government spending equaling 15% of GDP, and puts our finest metro areas to shame in many ways. Singapore has grown rapidly in recent decades, and it has it at 14.4%. Chile has come a long way as well, and it's at 17.3%. Those would, for most people, put to rest your ridiculous notion that government spending must be high to spawn prosperity. Even China, which is experiencing growth unprecedented in all of history, has central government spending of only around 18.5%.

In case you're now back-tracking and limiting that definition only to health care spending, Switzerland has a lower share of GDP spending than we do with up to date numbers (Wiki is 3 years old!), with 35.8% of GDP compared to our 36.6%.

You dare not even look at the Middle East, as I said in my first post. Regardless of where some states get it, their spending ranges from 5% in to the mid-20s, and many areas live lifestyles better than American ones with smaller government footprints.

quote:
WHAT SCHOOL DID YOU GO TO ????? THE DEPRESSION WAS BEFORE WW2...HELLO ARE YOU THERE?!?!


What are you talking about? Who brought up the Great Depression? You said people could not handle it if government spending was trimmed across the board, I point out that America did fantastic before the invention of the nanny state (and that other countries do quite fine with lower levels of spending), and now you scream "OMGWTF GREAT DEPRESSION!!!" Besides, if you bother to learn your history, you'll take notice that the Great Depression was a standard one, and was recovering, before bills like Smoot-Holly came in to effect and the Federal Reserve, a rather new government construct, tried to insert the government in to the economy. Only then did it truly become the "Great Depression." This basic history is now actually in many introductory economics textbooks, if you've ever touched one. If you were trying to bring attention to a single event, thats also a red herring, as you can't escape the growth that took place from 1776-1930s with minimal government spending.

quote:
I'm not trying to attack you personally but come on please research.


I'm not trying to attack you personally, but you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and you've already started backing away from your original idiotic positions to more tenable ones -- taking cues from Obama, are we?


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/2/2008 1:47:35 AM , Rating: 2
God you talk alot and still get it wrong. How is that possible??? You can't even keep the crap that comes out of your mouth straight within the same post.

Now why don't we take the WHOLE sentence instead of chopping it up. I know your poor brain cells can only handle a few bits at a time but let me help you.

Here is what I said

quote:
The biggest expenditure in the US is the military BY FAR.. don't bother to pull up graphs showing military running second because for the last 8 years the war isn't even included within the budget that's supplementary meaning it's outside of the budget and on top of what is currently allocated for defense.


Notice the "by far" also gives a reference to why I say by far....that's right because of additional spending not appearing in the budget. You follow the English???

Why are you combining Social Security and Medicare??? Are you that desperate?? You know they separate it for a reason right??? Oh never mind I know why you are combining it. Because you opened your mouth without researching, and now you've got to add a whole bunch of different sectors within the federal budget to be right..... Aaaww my how we've grown...

quote:
Straight welfare ate 294 billion,
Isn't that less than 673 billion??? It is ... that's why you keep adding in Social Security which EVERY American is eligible for . Medicaid not Medicare is the only medical program that assists low income.

The reason why I'm not looking into the future is because that stuff changes year to year and administration to administration. That's why they call them "projections".

Once again I don't know how many times I need to say this until your brain comprehends what I've said previously and what I'm saying now. What does Social Security and Medicare have to do with what I was talking about ?? Those programs are available to EVERYONE at a certain age, whether you are broke or not.

quote:
You didn't address that at all. You just showed that some manage to do okay despite it. My same examples still stand.


No it doesn't. You just choose not to read. Sorry can't help you with that one.

If you want to compare the GDP of Hong Kong or Chile with that of the US go for it. Great their GDP went up ooooooo doesn't really matter considering our GDP is in the trillions theirs is in the billions.

quote:
What are you talking about? Who brought up the Great Depression? You said people could not handle it if government spending was trimmed across the board, I point out that America did fantastic before the invention of the nanny state


English isn't your first language is it?? You said that before WW2 the US was doing fantastic, I bring up the depression and you act like it didn't happen ...great I'm talking to someone with selective hearing. Our unemployment rate was 23.6% during the depression. If you think that's normal or fantastic then I'll give you a nickel if you give me a dollar.

Nice try with going with the US economy when we created the Constitution ...wow can't believe our economy grew....how the hell that happen?? You might as well say we had a economic explosion when cavemen invented fire.

Since you can't read nor can you remember what you type it's obvious to me that you and McCain must live in the same old folks home.

Let me know when your bout of Alzheimer's is over then we'll talk.


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 8/2/2008 4:56:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Notice the "by far" also gives a reference to why I say by far....that's right because of additional spending not appearing in the budget. You follow the English???


You didn't even bother to look up the data, did you? The military budget number I used, from your favorite "source" wikipedia, was actually the official military budget PLUS all the extra add-ons for the "War on Terror" and one or two other supplemental bills. You're only showing your own ignorance and lack of rigor here.

quote:
Why are you combining Social Security and Medicare???


Actually, I really only combined Medicare and Medicaid, which as I said serve a similar function. As for social spending in general, I merely added those together to provide a sense of how small military spending is relative to the entire budget, as your original language made it sound as if it were huge. You continue to back track.

quote:
The reason why I'm not looking into the future is because that stuff changes year to year and administration to administration. That's why they call them "projections".


Banks would love your idiotic accounting rules. Mark to model.. for the lose.

quote:
What does Social Security and Medicare have to do with what I was talking about ??


Now you're changing the subject, talking about who is eligible for what. The issue was military spending being larger, I quote, "BY FAR." Military spending is not larger "BY FAR." University of Liberalism must have a doctorate problem in "dodging."

quote:
If you want to compare the GDP of Hong Kong or Chile with that of the US go for it. Great their GDP went up ooooooo doesn't really matter considering our GDP is in the trillions theirs is in the billions.


You've never taken an economics course or been introduced to basic principles, have you? You're dodging the fact that they manage to prosper (have decent rates of long term growth) with low government footprints, something you appeared to assert is impossible.

quote:
You said that before WW2 the US was doing fantastic, I bring up the depression and you act like it didn't happen


Nice try defending your bipolar explosion. The economy grew well on the whole from 1776 to the 1930s without hardly any federal influence or spending, a fact you suggested impossible, and an occurrence you now dismiss or try to minimize with the economic performance of a small number of years.

I think its obvious to anyone thats read along, you've tried to dodge points and change the scope of the discussion to defend originally indefensible positions. To anyone that knows the first thing about economics (where'd you get your degree, or what else qualifies you?) it's also obvious you know nothing beyond the neo-Marxist hard-left party line when it comes to macro economics.

If you want to provide some credible sources to studies or data that suggests economic prosperity is really dependent on European-levels of government spending as a share of GDP, feel free. A study that finds a positive correlation between spending as % of GDP and long term rates of growth from, say, 1980 to 2007 would be perfect. If you want to prove that the current military spending level, which is at best just slightly larger than the next largest line items, is "BY FAR" larger or somehow dominates the entire budget, feel free. Otherwise, I've fed your trolling enough.


RE: Bottled Water
By kc77 on 8/2/2008 8:43:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You didn't even bother to look up the data, did you? The military budget number I used, from your favorite "source" wikipedia, was actually the official military budget PLUS all the extra add-ons for the "War on Terror" and one or two other supplemental bills. You're only showing your own ignorance and lack of rigor here.


Actually I did, I am not using wikipedia. I'm using the actual data from whitehouse.gov.....LOL LOL . Would you like a lollipop sucker?

I know what all of the figures are. The supplemental is NOT included within that figure AT ALL. NO supplemental is.

quote:
Actually, I really only combined Medicare and Medicaid,


Hmm really ??

quote:
If you take Medicare and Medicaid together, as most people do as they perform similar functions, they ate almost 671 billion. Social Security ate 586 billion. Straight welfare ate 294 billion, with the total welfare state consuming a total of 1,551 trillion.


Looks like you were trying to combine it there.

quote:
Actually, I really only combined Medicare and Medicaid, which as I said serve a similar function.
A no they don't ... One services citizens with low income the other services citizens above a certain age.

quote:
Banks would love your idiotic accounting rules. Mark to model.. for the lose.
Yeah because with their foresight everything has been stellar. Sub-prime loans are wonderful. The buyout of Bear Sterns ....priceless. The takeover of IndyMac ...well that's just sunshine.

quote:
Now you're changing the subject, talking about who is eligible for what.
No I'm really not... if you bother to go to my first post where I clearly demarcate "WELFARE" I was speaking about only one government assistance program and before that I was talking about government's role in total within all of our lives. I was pretty specific.

quote:
You've never taken an economics course or been introduced to basic principles, have you?
Yeah I have that's why I know you can't compare two different countries with such gross differences in GDP. Their tax structure is wildly different. It quite truly is an apple and oranges comparison. If you want to know in Singapore they tax primarily the wealthy. They pay 73% of all taxes there.

quote:
Nice try defending your bipolar explosion. The economy grew well on the whole from 1776 to the 1930s without hardly any federal influence or spending, a fact you suggested impossible, and an occurrence you now dismiss or try to minimize with the economic performance of a small number of years.


Nice try avoiding the GREAT DEPRESSION!!! I wonder why they called it that. Oh yeah thats when our whole economy collapsed. Whose dodging what???? Pot calling Kettle on Line 2 ... here I think it's for you.

quote:
The economy grew well on the whole from 1776 to the 1930s


How idiotic??? What country's economy hasn't grown since it's own inception?? Name one!

quote:
it's also obvious you know nothing beyond the neo-Marxist hard-left party line


It's obvious to me that you haven't provided a single bit of evidence, anywhere, not a single reference. I've provided links showing tax rate vs GDP. Not that you could comprehend it anyway. You've shown me what..... nothing.

Your mouth has written a check that you can't cash if you think that calling be a neo-Marxist is going to stop me from outlining just how much of a retard you are you are sadly mistaken.

Quite frankly I've shown references and actual facts to back up everything I'm saying. So unless you are going to provide me with SOMETHING... either put up or shut up.

You're so typical of your ilk. You can't deal with being wrong so you go on this schizophrenic tirade to point out crap that isn't there.

I can see the stupid is strong with you. Until you can go look up the Great Depression and understand what that is and when that happened and what effect it had on our economy all this blabbering your doing is just providing all of us with an outline of your ineptitude.


RE: Bottled Water
By therealnickdanger on 7/31/2008 8:06:52 AM , Rating: 3
Well, bottled water IS wasteful and expensive for people that have perfectly good tap water. Isn't Evian spelled backward "naive"? I actually prefer the taste from my well. All those minerals and random bateria sure are delicious!

I suppose if you're really looking for a natural solution, go kill some animals and use their cleaned bladders and skins to bring water with you. It worked for centuries before plastic. If it was good enough for Socrates, Moses, and Jesus, it's probably good enough for us. :P


RE: Bottled Water
By Misty Dingos on 7/31/2008 12:31:17 PM , Rating: 2
Having noted that the environmental movement has been usurped by anti-globalization pacifist liberals it is easy to see that the end game (for them at least) is a return to a neo-stone age existence. As noted by the quote at the begining. There are several reasons why this concept is utterly doomed to failure.

One. The demonization of all knowledge will have to take place. Please note that this is not the education to a level of ignorance that we have today in the schools of the Republic. Knowledge itself will have to be attacked as an evil. This hasn’t been done effectively in the whole history of man. Even during the Dark Ages knowledge was fostered despite the prosecution of many that sought it.

Two. The population of the planet will have to be reduced to very disperse few million. This in its self is doomed to failure. No population in the history of man has ever voluntarily reduced their numbers on that scale. China’s example of population control/reduction has been successful in numbers but has had enormous social problems. Multiply that by the population of the planet and then factor in the realties of cultural differences and you will see the foolishness of this goal.

Three. There are a number of technological achievements of man that will require knowledgeable stewardship for thousands of years to come. If they are not shepherded into the future they could place much of the environment and those that live in ignorance nearby in grave danger. As such we will always need and will benefit from a deeply educated and free thinking planetary population.

While I could go on to list issues and examples for pages upon pages these three examples will suffice to prove my point that the typical rabid environmentalist is truly insane. No I am not joking. To romanticize the distance past is only natural to an extent. To rationalize that romanticism into some dogma about “man’s natural place in the environment” is utter lunacy. These people need to be fought at every turn they need to be defeated in any forum. They must not succeed at any level.

Responsible stewardship of the planet is a laudable goal. Stagnation of the planetary economic system in the name of rabid environmentalism is disaster unfolding before our very eyes.


RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 12:41:53 PM , Rating: 2
> "No population in the history of man has ever voluntarily reduced their numbers on that scale"

No population before in history has access to effective birth control and medically safe abortions. Barring immigration, most European nations aren't even restoring their own numbers. Japan is also suffering from the same decline. The drop in their birthrate is so severe they've even invented a word for it, "shoshieka": a society without children.

In any case, why do you assume it must be voluntary? A breakdown of industrial society would lead to the deaths of billions from simple starvation and the ensuring social chaos.


RE: Bottled Water
By Misty Dingos on 7/31/2008 4:06:39 PM , Rating: 2
OK I will explain to you. I note there are three words at the end of that quote that you failed to read or you chose to ignore.

It has to do with scale. The one effort at population reduction that has had any true measure of success is China. While Japan and many western nations have had shrinking populations this is the result of a progression of free societies wishing to indulge their wealth in themselves as individuals and not in the next generation as our ancestors typically did. Neither are these quasi-natural reductions in population enough to satisfy the goals of the extreme left environmentalists.

These goals are such that they would require our population to shrink from the 6.8 plus billion that it is to in the few tens of millions. Some where around 0.3% of the total human population. This isn't rational thinking going on in their camp. It is insanity and it is genocide on a level not even dreamt of in the most sick and twisted fantasies of Hitler or Stalin and others of their ilk. But this is indeed their goal, a world population sustainable by uneducated, unskilled hunter gatherers or opportunistic farmers.

With the availability of effective bio or chemical weapons it may be only a matter of time before one of these extreme environmentalist groups attempts just such genocide.

I not trying to frighten any school girls or malign any individuals here but we all know that with sufficient resources it only takes knowledge, desire, and will to try something like this.


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 7/31/2008 4:28:16 PM , Rating: 2
Well, that wouldn't take very long with a Japan-style birth rate, would it? 6b people giving birth to 3b kids, who then leave behind 1.5, who leave 750m, then 375m, 187m, 93m, 47m, 23m... 24 generations after that, the last man or woman in history would be alive.

Thats simplified, but with super-low birth rates of around 1 per woman, it wouldn't take all that many generations to see collapse. Japan's already facing problems; school consolidations and closures, including universities, and whole towns facing the realization that they are no longer viable.

Of course it's not rational, desirable, etc., and would indeed be quicker to do by nuclear or biological weapons. Regardless, we'll get there eventually, unless Japan leads the way in somehow encouraging women to stay home and choose a family life over a corporate ladder.


RE: Bottled Water
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 5:05:47 PM , Rating: 2
> "Thats simplified, but with super-low birth rates of around 1 per woman, it wouldn't take all that many generations to see collapse"

The "replacement rate" at which population neither increases nor decreases is considered to be 2.1 births/female. Spain's rate is now down to 1.07, and nations like Italy, Russia, Germany, and Japan aren't far behind.

Barring immigration or some unforeseen change in fertility rates, those nations will be essentially extinct within the next century.


RE: Bottled Water
By FITCamaro on 8/1/2008 9:54:02 AM , Rating: 2
Women. What we'll be fighting for in the next world war. :)

Especially China since they have a huge disparity between male and female births. I can almost see their government going into the rice fields and plucking out young women. Then marrying them off to men who either are important or who pay the most.

At least here in the US, men have the ability to chose since there's now more women than men in this country. :)


RE: Bottled Water
By Ringold on 7/31/2008 3:50:21 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Knowledge itself will have to be attacked as an evil.


I would say that it already is. Anyone who questions any component of man-made global warming is instantly demonized. Outside of that, I've been attacked as spreading Republican propaganda on economic issues by quoting data sources; apparently, emotional anecdotal economic analysis is far superior to rigorous technical analysis of various indicators. Pointing out that no, the current economy is not in straits comparable to those of the Great Depression = Republican lies!

The only thing that looks promising, for mankind in general, is China, Russia, India and Brazil's development. Good for them, but unfortunately, I rather like living here in the US..


RE: Bottled Water
By Keeir on 7/31/2008 1:29:16 PM , Rating: 2
I guess the truely scary part is that California is disregarding the welfare of its citizens and even the enviroment to make a fake "Stand".

Since a bottled water factory produces very little pollution (guess) and provides significant well-being in the form of jobs overall its a net win for California to have it. Since bottled water is a commodity good (almost) it doesn't matter to world production whether the factory is there or in Oregon (for example). It does matter to fuel usuage if the heavy component (filled water bottles) has to travel further to reach it destination.

The overall effect of blocking this water bottling facility would be to increase fuel usage and reduce the local economy.


RE: Bottled Water
By Spuke on 7/31/2008 2:30:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The overall effect of blocking this water bottling facility would be to increase fuel usage and reduce the local economy.
I truly believe that these people are only acting in this manner to garner votes because of the new "green" fad. They are not out to please anyone except themselves. They ARE politicians afterall.

They know that this plant could simply be built outside of California and the product shipped here anyways. They know that it would cost California more to have it shipped here.


RE: Bottled Water
By phxfreddy on 7/31/2008 3:20:41 PM , Rating: 2
Nice if you live somewhere with good water. I live in the deserts of Phx Az. If you drink the water there and like the taste more power to you. You most likely like the taste of musty dung in that event. Bottled water is not optional in some locations.


Mike
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 8:07:40 AM , Rating: 1
Excellent blog post. You're absolutely right.

The only thing I'll say is that if you drink bottled water, please recycle. I buy bottled water because I bring a bottle to work and refill it several times throughout the day. And I toss the bottle in the recycling bins at work when I leave.

But it absolutely disgusts me, that I don't just do this because I feel you should recycle when its so abhorrently easy, but I am required to due to government rules that government contractors do so. If I throw a plastic bottle in my trashcan at my desk, and an audit is done and the auditor sees the bottle, my company can fail said audit. Which is pathetic.




RE: Mike
By JediJeb on 7/31/2008 10:48:50 AM , Rating: 2
I prefer to use a glass bottle that I can take home and wash and reuse indefinately. Yes it is a little heavier than a plastic bottle, but how many plastic bottles can you replace with just one glass one. Also the taste of the water is so much better in glass, because you do leach phthalates from plastic, even when not in the sun. ( Tested that myself since I am a chemist in an enviromnental laboratory where we monitor drinking and waste water sources for our whole state).
For any testing we do for organic chemicals we must use glass because all plastic containers leach organic chemicals which interfer with our analysis. Conversly we use plastic containers when analyzing for metals for similar reasons.

Everyone is concerned about filling the landfills with plastic bottles but noone ever suggest a return to the glass returnable bottles that were common up through the 80s. Has anyone done a study to see if the extra weight in shipping and energy required to clean them outweighs the environmental impact of using plastic bottles and not just a bottom line assement of the sellers of the products packaged?


RE: Mike
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 11:58:34 AM , Rating: 2
I would love it if Coke came in glass bottles again. As far as water, I use a plastic bottle of water due to the convenience of being able to grab one every day and toss it in the recycle bin at the end of the day.


RE: Mike
By TomCorelis (blog) on 7/31/2008 12:05:59 PM , Rating: 2
Heh, come to southern California. All the liquor stores have Mexican Coke in glass bottles. :-) Too bad Mexican Coca-Cola tastes horrible.


RE: Mike
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 12:59:45 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks but I'll pass. Both on the Mexican Coca-Cola. And the coming to California part. I recently saw a job that offered $110-140,000 a year salary for a position in Santa Clara, CA. I applied for it but with the condition that I would like to work at their Austin, TX office and remote in because I didn't want to live in California. Obviously would've accepted less money as well.


RE: Mike
By robinthakur on 8/1/2008 6:00:19 AM , Rating: 2
Was it a job at Apple by any chance? :)


RE: Mike
By ted61 on 7/31/2008 2:38:12 PM , Rating: 2
I love Mexican coke. It is made with real sugar.


RE: Mike
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 2:51:16 PM , Rating: 3
And real coke. :)


RE: Mike
By onelittleindian on 7/31/2008 11:47:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If I throw a plastic bottle in my trashcan at my desk, and an audit is done and the auditor sees the bottle, my company can fail said audit. Which is pathetic.
OMG yo u have to be kidding. What's next, paying employees to spy on each other and rat out those those who don't obey the recycling mandate?


RE: Mike
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 11:59:17 AM , Rating: 2
We joke about it sometimes when we see someone do it.


RE: Mike
By arazok on 7/31/2008 1:12:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
my company can fail said audit


Are these government audits, or some voluntary audit the company has asked be done? Curious.


RE: Mike
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 2:53:28 PM , Rating: 2
ISO audits. And we have to be ISO compliant.


RE: Mike
By MrPickins on 7/31/2008 2:05:05 PM , Rating: 2
Recycling plastic doesn't make a lot of sense...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-144439167...


RE: Mike
By Spuke on 7/31/2008 3:17:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but I am required to due to government rules that government contractors do so.
Interesting, I work for a government contractor also and we have no such rule.


RE: Mike
By Jim28 on 8/1/2008 12:51:45 PM , Rating: 2
I work for a contract company, and the rules are different for each customer. Which really sucks!


No wonder the CA economy is in the crapper
By porkpie on 7/31/2008 1:49:06 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Nestle, which had already completed a previous environmental impact assessment, declined to fight the decision.
These things costs millions of dollars each. I'm surprised Nestle hasn't just given up on the idea entirely and moved it to somewhere where people actually have some sense.




RE: No wonder the CA economy is in the crapper
By Ringold on 7/31/2008 4:18:39 PM , Rating: 2
Along the lines of California.. it ranks as the worst state in the country in terms of business climate. Next comes New York, then Michigan, New Jersey and Mass.

The most favorable states were Texas, North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee and Florida tied, and finally Nevada. I was also just in Indiana this past week, and noted a stark improvement in the housing market relative to this month last year. I had a hard time finding middle and upper class homes for sale, where as last year entire streets were up for sale in some areas.

http://www.aboutdci.com/WinningStrategies.aspx

At the risk in incurring liberal wrath, I will point out that the states in clear recession tend to be most blue of blue states. Michigan, indeed, has been in what one could almost call a permanent recession for the last 8 years, with France-like unemployment (and government). Meanwhile, the Texas economy is booming (due to more industries than just oil), and many other red states are expanding in places. I know the job market for skilled labor in Indiana and Florida, from personal experience, is quite strong. (For non-college grads, yes, it sucks, but this is nothing new) For engineers, the whole country is your oyster.

The bottom line is pretty clear. If you punish something, you get less of it. If you punish business, you get less of it than you would otherwise. This means fewer jobs, lower growth. If California and New York didn't have such momentum, with so many workers and businesses already located/stuck there, they'd be in serious trouble.

This would be fine in the pre-Civil War era where states could set their own agendas. Unfortunately, bicoastal liberals want to force their failed economic policies on the rest of us. I also find demographic movements interesting.. Liberals are fleeing California, for example, and settling in states that became successful on the back of Republican policies. Yet, they don't learn from the experience, and bring their politics with them, turning certain Western states from solid red and libertarian backgrounds to states that are electoral toss ups.


RE: No wonder the CA economy is in the crapper
By TomZ on 7/31/2008 6:55:04 PM , Rating: 3
I think the recession in Michigan is more related to that state's reliance on the domestic automotive industry, which is currently in a strong recession itself, instead of being a function of a particular political climate.


RE: No wonder the CA economy is in the crapper
By Ringold on 8/1/2008 12:32:10 AM , Rating: 1
Other areas of the rust belt managed to diversify; Indianapolis, which I'm familiar with, is a nice example. Many of the old plants have long since left; Ford still has one on the east side, but it's in the process of shutting down, like so many others are. The place was, 40 years ago, almost entirely reliant on AT&T and auto plants. A quick drive through the south or north sides, however, and you'll see a lot of jobs, but very few related at all to the auto industry. The east side is still influenced by it, but the majority of people out there don't work for it either. More and more of the state seems to be attracting information-age jobs. As for the domestic auto industry, well, Indiana has at least two foreign plants I'm aware of. While other parts of the rust belt revitalize themselves, Michigan has the highest unemployment in the nation (8.5 in May). That doesn't happen by accident.

The economy itself was pointed to in the above link by business folk, but also it's high taxes and powerful labor unions were given as good reasons for business to steer clear. Michigan can thank its failing third-world school system as well. What's that got to do with the auto industry?

It's also interesting that Michigan experienced a sharp deteroriation in the economy not long after this news, from the WSJ:
quote:

The latest news of Michigan's deepening budget woe is a national warning of what happens when you raise taxes in a weak economy

Officials in Lansing reported this month that the state faces a revenue shortfall between $350 million and $550 million next budget year. This is a major embarrassment for Governor Jennifer Granholm, the second-term Democrat who shut down the state government last year until the Legislature approved Michigan's biggest tax hike in a generation. Her tax plan raised the state income tax rate to 4.35% from 3.9%, and increased the state's tax on gross business receipts by 22%. Ms. Granholm argued that these new taxes would raise some $1.3 billion in new revenue that could be "invested" in social spending and new businesses and lead to a Michigan renaissance.

Not quite. Six months later one-third of the expected revenues have vanished as the state's economy continues to struggle.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121192942396124327...

Most recent unemployment for Michigan: http://www.bls.gov/web/laumstrk.htm Notice how its neighbors have almost half the unemployment, and how rust belt states manage to avoid clustering at the bottom.

Michigan in the aggregate believes in the standard Democrat lines about business, taxes, and jobs. They are paying the price, and can't blame external factors for their woes. The bottom five are all solid blue states.


RE: No wonder the CA economy is in the crapper
By kc77 on 8/1/2008 8:40:43 PM , Rating: 2
You've picked Michigan, a state that was nothing but manufacturing as your example about taxes? If the tax rate was 0% the unemployment rate would be the same. Losing jobs is losing jobs. If you don't make any money how can the government take it??

Even if business flocked into the state as a result of the low taxes who is going to perform the tasks?? Manufacturing as a whole is leaving the US doesn't matter if your state is red or blue or chartreuse.


RE: No wonder the CA economy is in the crapper
By Ringold on 8/2/2008 12:29:49 AM , Rating: 2
I picked Michigan because they willingly made themselves a test study, and because TomZ brought it up. I also conceded that their economy was largely manufacturing base, but pointed out that they had failed to diversify. Just about every other rust-belt state managed to do so, but they did not.

While it is true that manufacturing jobs are being replaced by lower cost overseas labor and automation, other states have managed to attract diverse businesses to fill the void. As I said, you can drive through parts of the rust belt and see a variety of modern biotech, IT, financial service and other firms. Yet again, for emphasis, Michigan has failed to diversify. Some states (Mobile, Alabama) are even still attracting heavy industry, such as steel mills.

When a survey asks business people why they chose not to expand in to Michigan, they cited the tax burden and labor unions. Therefore, fewer new jobs for Michigan. Why would a business locate there when they can locate in Red states with lower taxes and weaker or even no labor unions at all? If Michigan kept tax levels competitive with the rest of the country, all else being equal, Michigan would no longer be ignored by business.

I'm not sure where you're disconnecting from reality exactly. Do you believe businesses don't choose sites based on local tax issues? Do you think they don't consider the possibility and costs of labor unions coming in? Or do you believe that all economic activity can not take place without the government rubber-stamping or controlling it?

If you need a case study on how drastic, deep cuts in income and corporate tax rates, liberalization (freeing up) of labor markets, deregulation, trimming back the size of government, and real investment in higher education can lead to economic turn-arounds, google 'Irish Miracle'.


By kc77 on 8/2/2008 11:42:40 PM , Rating: 2
What I'm saying is Michigan is poor example. Doesn't matter how low the taxes went. The people in that area need to be retrained big time. I don't think we are disagreeing here.


Come on man.
By haelduksf on 8/1/2008 9:34:54 AM , Rating: 3
That's an interesting theory you have there regarding the fall of the Roman empire. I'm sure there are history profs who'd love to hear it.




RE: Come on man.
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2008 10:28:23 AM , Rating: 2
I recognize your sarcasm, but it's not my theory. The idea that the Roman empire fell due to a decline in civic virtue is one shared by many historians, and first appeared in Edward Gibbon's definitive work, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.


RE: Come on man.
By mindless1 on 8/1/2008 7:19:11 PM , Rating: 3
Sure, but the idea that we should not produce plastic bottles at all is one shared by many enviro-nuts. The idea that global warming will doom us all is one shared by many scientists. Repeating one theory without the other isn't usually a reasonable representation.


Cost
By Screwballl on 7/31/2008 12:07:03 PM , Rating: 2
Look at the cost difference... you buy bottled water by the gallon at anywhere from $3 for a 24 pack of 16.9/20pz bottles to $1.19 for a single bottle from the gas station...
over the course of a month that can be anywhere from $20-40 per month on water on top of the regular water bill..
or you can buy a water filter for the tap for $20-40 and have clean water for months to years at a time without the recurring cost and saves much more money...




RE: Cost
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2008 12:11:42 PM , Rating: 2
Well there's the taste issue. To some people, the dissolved minerals in certain spring water makes it preferable to tap water.

Myself, I can't taste any difference, but my wife can tell Perrier from any other bottled sparkling or soda water. I didn't believe it myself until I performed a blind taste test on her.


RE: Cost
By Cullinaire on 7/31/2008 12:28:59 PM , Rating: 2
Perrier does have a fairly distinct taste - understandable as it is one of the few mass market bottled water to actually come from a "natural" source. I don't particularly care for it compared to (good) tap water myself. (now the impossible to find perrier lemon, on the other hand...)


This is stupid
By ThatNewGuy on 7/31/2008 9:33:33 AM , Rating: 1
Closing down a bottled water plant because of "global warming" makes as much sense as saying 'Having unprotected sex is an effective method of deterring STDs.'




RE: This is stupid
By FITCamaro on 7/31/2008 9:40:24 AM , Rating: 2
They're not closing it down. They're preventing it from ever being built.


RE: This is stupid
By ThatNewGuy on 7/31/2008 9:45:40 AM , Rating: 2
Ah, thanks for the correction. My analogy still stands. :P


Bottling water in California
By mattclary on 7/31/2008 2:15:13 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't bottling water in California kind of... ironic? I thought Cali has to pipe in most of their water, or maybe it's just LA that does this?

Bottling water (at least in the quantities that it is done) is freaking retarded to me, but if their production won't affect the local water table, let 'em have at it.




RE: Bottling water in California
By ted61 on 7/31/2008 2:41:45 PM , Rating: 2
California pipes most of their water in from the mountains. Northern California water is fantastic. SF bay area water districts send out annual reports telling users what is in the water. I never got that from a bottle of water. Bottled water can be filter sewer water for all I know.


hmmm.. something funky here
By kattanna on 7/31/2008 10:34:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to Brown, the consequences of all these plastic bottles are "unknown" and must be subjected to further study.


with that statement, im left wondering is he really out for the enviroment, or did he not get the kick back he was expecting?

or.. is this all postering for 2010

http://www.jerrybrown.org/about




By phxfreddy on 7/31/2008 3:25:33 PM , Rating: 2
First invented by Don Z. and in its first form had the following description:

There are too many people. We ought to have a lottery where you have a 50% chance of drawing the short straw. If you draw it….you are offed. —Don Zobel ( 2007)

It is certain the environmental movement holds this concept in its core ideas. Bottled water is just the latest manifestations. Makes one hopes California will fall into the sea with the next earthquake.

http://www.amarketplaceofideas.com/environmental-d...




Choice
By Segerstein on 8/1/2008 4:11:43 PM , Rating: 2
Ecofreaks want to legislate. But not by democratic means - being elected on their platform, but by murky lobbying.

A true democrat (not a Democrat) would let the people choose: if they want to drink bottled water, let them drink bottled water; if they don't, for whatever reason, they don't.

But the government is too smart, wanting to protect people from themselves. It is looking to the people as children, not citizens.

But keep in mind something: one thing is to protect human health, quite another pagan worship of The Untouchable Mother Nature. That's the delineation between an environmentalist and an ecofreak.




Not an environmental issue
By mindless1 on 8/1/2008 7:38:15 PM , Rating: 2
The first half of the blog was fair, the second half turning a bit subjective, but overall need need to remember something:

This isn't really an environmental issue, it's a political one. Sanity often flies out the window when catering to groups of people who want to feel just but have no idea how to go about realizing that. Although in CA it's popular to be green, there will be a balance struck when people are doing without more and more of the modern conveniences to the point where man's inherant greed, or more popularly called "convenience" takes over and the stance will shift to "I want my water until you can prove _I_ am worse off for having it". It's just that in CA right now, people perceive they are worse off having lost their politically correct green stance than to lose a fraction of their bottled water resources or the jobs.

Not to worry though, it's less politically correct to do these things in other states. If all the nutjobs want to move to and occupy CA then I say let 'em.




Bad water
By Luna M on 8/2/2008 8:23:13 AM , Rating: 2
I agree that it's foolish to ban bottled water plants that would create much-needed jobs.

I also agree that it's in some way wasteful to bottle and sell at a premium something that you can get in your own home.

The only problem is, in some places, like Atlanta, for example, the re-processed water that comes from the tap is simply _vile_. No filter I have ever used on my faucet has ever gotten rid of the stale chlorine/fluoride taste, and drinking too much of it will literally make me feel ill. I fall back on bottled water to avoid making my stomach upset. I imagine I'm not the only one.

I guess you could just say I'm a wuss, but... (shrug) No one likes to feel sick.




mcdonalds happy meals
By Andy35W on 8/5/2008 2:02:36 AM , Rating: 2
Although I don't see the need for a bottling plant I do think the excuse used for not doing it is pretty poor considering that if you get a happy meal from mcdonalds it comes with a toy made in China. That toy is useless and is made out of plastic, is in a plastic bag and has been shipped half way around the world, just to encourage people to eat burgers and fries from a young age.

In comparison to that a plastic bottle of water is fairly "pure". They need to get their priorities right.




Atlas needs to shrug
By androticus on 8/19/2008 2:05:24 AM , Rating: 2
Reminds me of the scene in Atlas Shrugged, where after making it almost impossible to produce or ship anything, some politician is flabbergasted that there is no orange juice anywhere to be had in New York City. I can imagine a natural disaster and then Jerry Brown flabbergasted to discover there is no bottled water available, and people start dying of dysentery, cholera, etc.

The only way this insanity of stifling regulation and expropriation can be stopped is if the producers get together and go on strike. Both the public and politicians have learned that producers are whipping boys with a seemingly infinite capacity for pain and humiliation--victims who apologize for their own existence and beg for more.

Have you watched the shameless political ads being played now? Notice how anything bigger than a lemonade stand is being bashed, like McCain "standing up to big drug companies" and who will "take on big oil" -- in a time of near national crisis over energy, the energy companies are **the enemy**???? The very companies upon whom we must depend to develop new sources of energy???

I attended business school and was required to take two course in economics--more credits than any other topic. I will say flat out that economics per se is actually not even a relevant subject for business (beyond simple concepts anyone understands, such as supply and demand, and elasticity -- but a kid with a lemonade stand understands those things.) But curiously, what I concluded was that the primary purpose of the course was ideological brainwashing: it's sole purpose seemed to be to completely discredit capitalism and validate the interventionist/socialist state. I suspect that this type of ideological brainwashing is part of most college curricula. So most of our business leaders are actually ideologically neutered--they are thus often the loudest in exclaiming their support for the status quo.

Personal replies (supportive or otherwise) are welcome:
baisa@brad-aisa.com
Brad Aisa




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