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VW Jetta TDI  (Source: Autoblog)
German car companies handling fuel efficiency carefully

German auto makers are known for heavily promoting diesel power, but are now finally jumping on to the hybrid vehicle bandwagon.

To meet strict 2016 fuel efficiency standards in the United States, German auto makers see hybrid vehicles as the way to help their image among U.S. car buyers.

"The smart play is to hedge your bets by having entries in both categories," when talking about diesel and hybrid, according to J.D. Power and Associate analyst Michael Omotoso.  "There's still a lot of perception on the part of American consumers that diesels are dirty, so the strategy is to have hybrids for those who think diesels are dirty."

Indeed, Toyota, Honda and several other auto makers have temporarily pushed back launch plans for diesel vehicles, noting the lack of demand among U.S. consumers.  Furthermore, Toyota's decision to delay a diesel-powered vehicle also was because of a negative stigma related to diesel in the U.S.  However as noted in an earlier article published on DailyTech, German automakers -- due to European gas prices -- remain dedicated to diesel vehicles.

"We are taking a very broad approach," BMW spokesperson David Buchko told the USA Today.  "It's more than a statement.  It's an opportunity for us to gain familiarity with (hybrids) for broader use.  

Luxury carmakers such as BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and Porsche must choose what technology they invest in carefully, as consumer demand and the expected lifetime of some fuel technologies remains unclear.  For example, gas-electric hybrids may have been able to snatch up some headlines, but it's unknown if consumers will still be interested in just five years time, car industry analysts warn.

Volkswagen plans to continue investing research and development into clean diesel technology in the United States, with the company "encouraged by the momentum of our clean diesel TDI sales," VW COO Mark Barnes said last month.  He also added, "It appears that U.S. consumers are starting to realize the many benefits of today's clean diesels--vehicles that attain more than 30 percent better fuel economy while emitting 25 percent less greenhouse gas emission, all without sacrificing driving dynamics."

Any carmaker interested in offering diesel vehicles in the United States must now launch a clever marketing campaign to highlight the positive aspects of diesel technology.  Until then, expect German automakers to also focus on hybrid vehicles alongside regular gasoline and diesel engines.



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More diesels please
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2009 8:20:48 AM , Rating: 5
Bring them. Tout their benefits. And the smart ones will adopt them. My next vehicle will likely be a diesel. It's purchase is just a ways off.




RE: More diesels please
By jadeskye on 7/28/2009 8:48:23 AM , Rating: 3
Over here in europe, specifically england, diesels are very popular but they're not much more economical then petrol cars. This is due to the government increasing tax on diesel fuel. i imagine the case is much the same throughout europe and probably even in America.

Not to mention it is still a product of fossil fuels, something we want to step away from. Certainly a short term solution and i hope your next purchase serves you well but hybrids are a much more long term solution.

Hopefully the jump from hybrid to full electric and then on to something even better in the distant future.


RE: More diesels please
By Xaser04 on 7/28/2009 9:47:50 AM , Rating: 2
In the UK both Petrol and Diesel are taxed the same (54pence per litre), VAT at 15% is then added on top of this. The price difference at the pump (which is now virtually non-existant) is mainly supply and demand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon_oil_duty#...

(I know this is a wiki link but for something that is concrete it is a useful and quick link.


RE: More diesels please
By Aloonatic on 7/28/2009 10:53:19 AM , Rating: 3
One of the problems that has affected diesel prices in the UK and Europe in general is that demand has increased due to more homes using it as heating fuel rather than natural gas in the last year or so, caused by the rise in price of natural gas and the Kremlin f'ing about with their pipelines.

Another link on the fuel duty in the UK, in case anyone cares :)

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2007/bn53.htm

Also (if anyone is still interested) VAT has been temporarily reduced to fight the good fight against the "global recession" on the high street, but as we all only buy and drive cars (in the UK at least) in a single minded vendetta against the polar bear**, the reduce 15% rate meant that extra duty had to be added to fuel so as not to case a reduction in the price of fuel, making us go crazy and drive around the streets for the fun of it chanting down with ice capos, drown polar bear, drown.

When VAT goes up again at the end of the year (I think it's going to 18%) that extra duty wont be removed of course. The polar bears are safe you can all relax Green Peace.

** Apparently some people say they buy cars because they need them to get to work (as our public transport systems are incredibly expensive, yet god awful) buy food/goods, see their families and such, but this is just an excuse that many use. They really hate the planet too and only have cars to kill mother nature and make Captain Planet cry.


RE: More diesels please
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2009 12:23:57 PM , Rating: 1
Captain Planet can suck my North Pole.


RE: More diesels please
By quiksilvr on 7/28/2009 1:51:26 PM , Rating: 2
Don't you mean South Pole?


RE: More diesels please
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2009 2:03:38 PM , Rating: 2
No.


RE: More diesels please
By piroroadkill on 7/28/2009 12:02:55 PM , Rating: 2
Bollocks, diesel is identical in price to petrol right now, about 100-104p a litre


RE: More diesels please
By Samus on 7/28/2009 5:29:36 PM , Rating: 2
The US has similarly aggressive deisel taxes to Europe, however the price fluxuation compared to Petrol is virtually non-existant. For example, Deisel has been around $3.60 here in San Diego for 6 months solid, but Petrol has fluctuated anywhere between $3.00 and $4.00, being $3.79 right now. It's been close to $4.00 for the past 3 months.

Fact is, deisel can cost 30% more and you'll still break even on fuel economy. The savings are even more significant in you own a truck. I was talking to some guy in an F150 deisel at the pump the other day and he said he gets around 22mpg on the highway. MY last F150, the same extended cab platform he had, was a V8 4.6l (the smaller V8, compared to the 5.4l) and I was lucky to get 15mpg on the highway. I also had significantly less power. The only reason I opted for the petrol motor over the deisel was price. $10,000 difference in price on a $18,000 truck is a big deal considering the only change is the motor. It's take me 6 years of driving to break even on the investment.

Deisel needs to become more common-place so it can come down in price.


RE: More diesels please
By Spuke on 7/28/2009 5:55:01 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I was talking to some guy in an F150 deisel at the pump the other day and he said he gets around 22mpg on the highway.
There aren't any diesel F150's in the US. The guy you were talking to had either a F250 or F350. In either case, those trucks have nothing in common with your F150 other than the Ford badge. Regardless, it's amazing that a nearly 6500 pound truck can get equal or better gas mileage than a 1500 lb less truck. I have a diesel F250 myself and it gets the same city mileage as our previous Toyota Tundra but gets from 2 to 3 mpg BETTER on the freeway. As a matter of fact, we got 22 mpg on our trip to Temecula just this past weekend.


RE: More diesels please
By Starcub on 7/29/2009 12:45:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but Petrol has fluctuated anywhere between $3.00 and $4.00, being $3.79 right now.

Jeez, is this a San Diego thing? Here in Tarpon Springs, FL gas is currently $2.41/gal at the pump.


RE: More diesels please
By Spuke on 7/29/2009 2:21:33 PM , Rating: 2
It's a CA thing. We have more gas taxes out here hence the higher price.


RE: More diesels please
By Pneumothorax on 7/28/2009 8:50:36 AM , Rating: 2
Yup everyday that I see diesel being $0.20 cheaper than regular here in CA is pushing me closer to getting a 335d. Hypermilers are able to get 40 or so while regular enthusiasts can easily get low to mid 30's. Not bad for a mid 5s 0-60 car!


RE: More diesels please
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2009 9:11:49 AM , Rating: 2
Here in SC diesel is currently the same price as midgrade. It was the price of premium at one point. But seeing how I use premium anyway, it wouldn't be a problem.


RE: More diesels please
By Spuke on 7/29/2009 12:50:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yup everyday that I see diesel being $0.20 cheaper than regular here in CA is pushing me closer to getting a 335d.
I'd buy one of those (335d) if they'd offer it in a coupe with a DCT. They're going to be monsters once the tuner market picks up for them here in the US.


RE: More diesels please
By Lord 666 on 7/28/2009 8:57:39 AM , Rating: 2
VW needs to offer the TDI on their full range of products; CC, Passat, Tiguan, and even that Dodge Caravan they have. I would wait list a CC or Passat if they made them available in the 3.0 400lbs torque motor and AWD the Toureq and Audi's get.

If you trade in an older car using the "cash for clunkers," you can geta Jetta TDI for under 20,000. Not bad for a great car. Was trying to talk my mother into one as I was driving her to the airport doing 85-100mph in my TDI yesterday. The power band in my 2006 is sweet in that range and on the Garden State Turnpike its easy to keep it there. If she were to get one, the additional power of an 2009 would be much more fun.

Only then will they realize the true power of the dark side.


RE: More diesels please
By SoulBlighter on 7/28/2009 9:06:22 AM , Rating: 3
Personally speaking, I think public should be aware the consequences of using hybrid vehicles. I doubt if anyone made calculation of toxic material in use for batteries in Hybrids. So far I do not see a proper solution for it, all i am seeing is swift using one source towards another, but when it comes to pollution, its still a big question mark.


RE: More diesels please
By brybir on 7/28/2009 10:45:34 AM , Rating: 2
The two types of battery tech used right now are NiMH and Lithium Ion. Both of these battery types have been around and used in various ways for years and can be safely recycled. Beacuse they are common battery types recycling centers can be found all over, not to mention the car companies are committed (and sometimes required as in Cali) to provide proper recycling for its worn down hybrid batteries.

If you are talking about the manufacture of the batteries their is no getting around that their is some pollution, most certainly with smelting nickel. But most of the production is done in Canada, and contrary to some reports about the "wasteland" around the nickel smelters, it is actually fairly clean production and IS very heavily regulated by the Canadian government (its the one thing the Canadian government thinks it is good at and does a lot of).

So in the end I am not that worried about this problem. Now, if we can just get plug in hybrids attached to a grid predominatly powered by nukes (and where the reactor material is then recycled as well), I will be happy.


RE: More diesels please
By Pirks on 7/28/2009 11:53:32 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
doing 85-100mph
Do you use some sort of police radar jammer or something? Or do you have some powerful friends at the local police (hmm, are you a cop yourself? ;) or are you simply content with paying triple premium for your car insurance?


RE: More diesels please
By Spuke on 7/28/2009 1:44:11 PM , Rating: 2
The police can't be everywhere. And that stretch of road might be conducive to speeding. There are some stretches of road out here in CA that have excellent visibility (for spotting cops visually) and just enough traffic to pick up radar well in advance with a detector.


RE: More diesels please
By Lord 666 on 7/28/2009 3:52:25 PM , Rating: 2
The Turnpike has a truck side and a car side. I prefer driving with the pros plus their average speed is always around 80. But as Spuke said, some roads can be driven fast, this is definitely one of them without worrying about police. I am not an officer, but have some now expired FoP cards... In other words, they are useless. Never believed in radar, tried it a couple times without much luck.

However, while I typically drive fast, wanted to make sure my mother had her 2 hours before the flight left. If I got a ticket, oh well. Rather pay the fees than disappoint Mom.

My TDI hits the wall at 100; she doesn't have anymore after that. The new 2009's are rated with a top speed of 129. Hell, my 98 HX Civic could do 110 on Penn Turnpike with ease. The fastest I got the 02 V6 Accord was 120 on the GSP.


RE: More diesels please
By Lord 666 on 7/28/2009 4:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
Forgot to add that at 85-100, the car was still getting about 40mpg with the A/C on.

At a steady 80, it usually does 50mpg.


RE: More diesels please
By Starcub on 7/29/2009 1:01:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Was trying to talk my mother into one as I was driving her to the airport doing 85-100mph in my TDI yesterday. The power band in my 2006 is sweet in that range...

Why do people talk about hybrid "vs." deisel engines? Given that deisel engines perform best at high rpm's, I would think that (at least in terms of efficiency) deisel engines would be ideal candidates for use in deisel-electric hybrid engines. Why restrict deisel-electric tech to use in large commercial vehicles?


RE: More diesels please
By Spuke on 7/29/2009 2:30:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Given that deisel engines perform best at high rpm's
Diesel engines are low rpm. There's a reason why but I can't remember.


RE: More diesels please
By Starcub on 7/30/2009 4:48:48 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, 85-100mph isn't a low rpm range for engine operation. Furthermore, old deisel engines had problems running smoothly at low rpm. Deislel produces power at the high end, and electric produces power at the low end. That's why it seems to me that they would be an ideal mate.


RE: More diesels please
By FaceMaster on 7/28/2009 8:34:35 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah... but can it RUN Crysis? Hohoho


35mpg is the average in Europe now
By sigmatau on 7/28/2009 9:05:16 AM , Rating: 2
"To meet strict 2016 fuel efficiency standards in the United States, German auto makers see hybrid vehicles as the way to help their image among U.S. car buyers."

Not true. European average 35mpg right now. The cars are smaller than what some Americans would consider.

Diesels > Hybrids. Who wants a hybrid when you can get almost the same fuel economy but with strong acceleration?




RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By TheEinstein on 7/28/2009 9:59:23 AM , Rating: 3
Actually not just cars we wont consider, but cars which routinely fail our super strong safety standards.

I would not mind seeing the other cars here, except they cannot pass the insane standards the United States has. Structurally and 'environmentally'.

Is it worth noting my 'Green' Semi-Truck gets 7 mpg, and a Semi with no green crap added could get 12 mpg?


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By martinrichards23 on 7/28/2009 10:25:48 AM , Rating: 2
That's just not true. European cars easily pass the US safety standards, indeed many are on sale in the US, just not in large numbers.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2009 10:46:48 AM , Rating: 1
I don't care if it passes safety standards. If it can't take a hit from an SUV and let me live, I'm not gonna drive it. And no, removing all SUVs from the road is not the answer to that.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By Gyres01 on 7/28/2009 12:40:06 PM , Rating: 3
True that, except the majority of SUV's would roll over before hitting you.....


By sigmatau on 7/28/2009 12:53:05 PM , Rating: 3
SUV's cause way more deaths per 100 than cars do. Just the simple fact that a quick course correction to avoid an obstacle can make you flip is a good indication.

Many don't understand that a rigid structure like a truck/SUV is WORSE than a flexible/crumple-zone structure of a care in terms of safety. You will die more often in a rigid structure over a flexible one. SUVs may seem to do great in a few situations, but I would hate to drive something that is worse in safety than what is already available from a car.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By PorreKaj on 7/28/2009 12:50:50 PM , Rating: 2
And what you really mean is that US drivers is crappy drivers? ^^


By FITCamaro on 7/28/2009 2:05:34 PM , Rating: 2
And what you really mean is that Europeans ARE crappy spellers.

And are you saying that accidents don't happen in Europe?


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By bludragon on 7/28/2009 1:21:30 PM , Rating: 2
It is quite possible for a well designed small car to be safer than a big car. Modern small cars are now getting 5 stars in the euro ncap crash tests, I think I'd rather be in one of them than a large car from 10-15 years ago in a crash.

Take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ygYUYia9I

I'm not saying a modern large car wouldn't do better, but sometimes appearances can be deceiving.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2009 2:06:28 PM , Rating: 2
A small car is not going to do well in a crash vs. a large car.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By lycium on 7/28/2009 9:47:19 PM , Rating: 2
it's not an arms race to get the biggest car.

yap yap yap need big car yap yap yap cheeseburgers yap yap...


By Spuke on 7/29/2009 12:53:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it's not an arms race to get the biggest car.
What's this have to do with what FIT posted? If you don't want a big car, don't buy one. It's that easy.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By andrinoaa on 7/28/2009 11:48:24 PM , Rating: 2
ok, what percentage of accidents are "large suv vs small car" and what are the injury stats? Can't find any ah? So why are you asserting certain things without facts? Keep dragging those knuckles, lol.


By Spuke on 7/29/2009 12:54:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
ok, what percentage of accidents are "large suv vs small car" and what are the injury stats? Can't find any ah?
I didn't see you posting stats to the contrary either. Keep being an a$$hole. LOL.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By Spuke on 7/28/2009 12:35:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
European cars easily pass the US safety standards, indeed many are on sale in the US, just not in large numbers.
They do NOT "easily pass" otherwise we would just simply import them as is. They must be modified to meet our safety and emissions standards.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By sigmatau on 7/28/2009 1:03:26 PM , Rating: 2
That is not true. European cars are different. They sell $30k civic-sized cars there. These cars can easily be sold here but no one will buy them. They are not big enough for 6 football players and do not have 8 big gulp cup holders.

GM and Ford has been doing a horrible job importing these cars. Europe has much better GMs and Fords than we do. They have the new Focus platform a looooooong time ago and yet we are stuck with the original. The Fiesta was released there first. The Ford Mondeo would crush anything here if it was released during its release. The Chevy Cruze will not reach us for another year or more yet has been released to Europe. The Opels (GM) are class leaders there. Here, Chevy is stuck with comparisons to hyundai with their cobalt. Yes, yes, I know they have the Malibu, but that is the ONLY volume seller that they have come out with in over 30 years that competes.

Anyways, in the end, our safety standards are usualy < than Europe's standards. This includes emmitions. We don't import these cars because they are expensive and different from what many of us like. I personaly would love them all to come over.


By Spuke on 7/28/2009 2:01:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyways, in the end, our safety standards are usualy < than Europe's standards. This includes emmitions.
No they are not. US emissions standards are the primary reason that diesel cars have not sold well here regardless of perception. In other words, even if perception of diesels improved in the US, the cars STILL have to pass emissions and safety regulations. If you actually LOOK at US diesel car sales, you will see that some model years weren't available because they did not meet emissions standards.

About US safety standards, see the caranddriver.com short road test on the 2011 Ford Fiesta, a car that will be imported to the US from Europe, for example. I quote, "Safety regulations dictate new side mirrors and slight changes to the bumpers; otherwise, the styling won’t be altered." If the Euro cars met our safety regulations, there would be NO need to change the car at all.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By wookie1 on 7/28/2009 1:31:20 PM , Rating: 2
Well, aren't those imperial MPG? That would equate to ~29 US MPG.


RE: 35mpg is the average in Europe now
By Finch75 on 7/28/2009 4:00:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well, aren't those imperial MPG? That would equate to ~29 US MPG.

Naaah, I don't think so. Actually, NOBODY uses MPG in Europe, except for a few British people. And from what I hear, even they are switching to liters (or litres? *g*). I guess sigmatau just converted it for Americans to understand :-)
(no offense, you always need points of reference to know if numbers are high or low and converting mpg to ltr/100km is not even easy...)

I just bought a car last week (it's two years old, but I just bought it now). It's not even a small car, but I needed 13.2 gallons (US) (50 litres) for the first 490 miles. That's mor than 37 MPG and I was NOT going slow :-) Hey, it's a new car and I need to see what it can do :-)

The mpg breaks down into one part where I was going rather fast (meaning 80 to 120 and the occasional 140) at 29 mpg and one part at lower speeds of 60 to 80 due to high traffic at almost 40 mpg. That's on the highway, of course. Inner city mileage is worse, but I don't have data yet.
Note that this is "real world" mpg which is always worse than the data sheets. The spec sheet actually says 52 (!) mpg "combined" (highway and city) and 57 (!) mpg on the highway.
I'll see how close I can actually get to that. One day... :-)
Of course, if a "European average" or a "US average" is cited anywhere, they probably use the "official" numbers...

Anyway, the newest engines have become quite efficient and if anybody tells me that US standards are too strict for European cars, I really have to laugh. US standards are *different*, maybe, and maybe ambitious for the future, but "in the real world", (on the streets), Europe is still a few years ahead of the US in that respect. I guess that's mostly due to gas prices (we currently pay about 7 USD / gallon, the highs were are around 9$ and it's been above 5$ for many years now), but that's not the point here... And even if it was: Gas prices are just one aspect of environmental policy and heavily affect the attitude towards resources...


By Spuke on 7/28/2009 6:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyway, the newest engines have become quite efficient and if anybody tells me that US standards are too strict for European cars, I really have to laugh.
US emissions standards are indeed more stringent and have been for decades (and they're about to become even more stringent...CAFE anyone?). US safety standards are, for the most part, different than Europe (Euro offset versus our head on crash tests for example) but there some aspects that are more stringent (bumpers). Either way, a Euro import has to be redesigned to meet our standards. It's usually an expensive process and the main reason why automakers tend to wait until a car is redesigned rather than add to a current model if that car is intended to be imported to the US. Otherwise, they would just send the cars over as is.


By Starcub on 7/29/2009 1:07:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Diesels > Hybrids. Who wants a hybrid when you can get almost the same fuel economy but with strong acceleration?

You can even better acceleration from electric engines than you can from gas or deisel engines if you use a motor designed for speed instead of efficiency. However, if you're going to use a hybrid engine in a economy car, why not use a deisel-electric hybrid optimized for efficiency so you get the best of both worlds?


I love my TDI!
By chunkymonster on 7/29/2009 12:57:32 PM , Rating: 2
Bought a 2005 Jetta TDI in 9/04 and it is by far one of the best cars I have ever owned and driven; and I've owned several cars over the years like Pontiac, Chevy, Ford, Mercury, Toyota, and Chrysler.

Clean diesels engines like that in the Jetta run strong and have plenty of torque for everyday driving. I put many miles up an down the NJ Turnpike and my Jetta TDI has it all over SUV's and larger cars from 55 to 85mph.

The perception that diesels are dirty and noisy is an antiquated view held onto close minded individuals without any ability to think past what commercials tell them to. The real irony of diesel engines and cars is that if you want a job site pick up truck that is reliable and can handle the workload, folks by a diesel. I hear it from my co-workers all the time, "got me a new pick up, got the Cummings diesel for when I need to do some real work." So, if diesels are strong and reliable enough to handle the hard workload of a construction site then doesn't it make sense that a diesel car would provide the same benefits and longevity for the every day commuter? Of course it does!

VW announced a proto-type diesel-electric hybrid that gets over 90mpg! Yep, that's right 90MPG!!!! Ford currently manufactures and sells a diesel car that gets 65mpg, the Fiesta ECOnetic; but they only sell it in EUROPE! WTF?!?! An American car company that makes a car that gets over 60mpg and they do not and will not sell it in the United States?!?! Ridiculous...

WIth the ability to make bio-diesel fuel out of used cooking oil, switchgrass, soybeans, and many other assorted bio-mass, it boggles my mind why alternative fuels sources and alternative fuel vehicles is such a hot button debate.

Americans need to wake up and smell the diesel!




RE: I love my TDI!
By Starcub on 7/29/2009 1:21:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Americans need to wake up and smell the diesel!

LOL! Most people would think you're nuts, but seriously, home-made bio-deisel smells like french-fries.

I test drove a TDI wagon before the new deisel fuel standards went into effect aqnd was fairly impressed. My guess is that since '07, the newer deisel engines are even better. As I understand it, the engines had to be re-designed to work with the new fuel (which is even cleaner than what has been in place in eurpoe for some time now).

I'd love to know if anyone uses home-made bio-deisel in the newer TDI's.


RE: I love my TDI!
By Spuke on 7/29/2009 2:18:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd love to know if anyone uses home-made bio-deisel in the newer TDI's.
Can bio-diesel be used in direct injected diesel engines?


RE: I love my TDI!
By Starcub on 7/30/2009 5:48:44 PM , Rating: 2
I know there are people who use it in pre-ULSD era TDI's. It seems as though issues come up when the tank is changed out between high and low bio-deisel content engines, but otherwise it works fine. I did some online research and checked to see what the situation was for the newer TDI's and it seems like they may be having problems with high BioD content deisel.


Ridiculous
By wuZheng on 7/28/2009 1:10:32 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know about the US, but in Canada, Volkswagen and BMW just started rolling out diesel models like a year ago, now they want to shift focus to less powerful, equally as expensive gas-electric hybrids that may or may not get better gas mileage than a diesel???

Lets see here....

Advantages of diesel:
1) Lower fuel consumption
2) Greater engine efficiency (by nature of design no less)
3) Longer engine life
4) More low-end torque
5) Diesel costs less than REGULAR in Markham, Ontario.

Advantages of hybrid:
1) You SEEM like you care about the environment

Wait, whoa thats it? So going from diesel to hybrid, you lose power, efficiency, and probably money to look like an enviro-geek? Wow, I'm definitely sold on that idea. *facepalm*

The above standpoint doesn't involve business considerations. Yes its easier to market hybrids to North Americans these days, and that turns into more sales, more profit, I get it. But lets just say.... for example...

BMW 320d:
- Powerplant:
--> Max kW/bhp @ RPM: 130/177 @ 4000
--> Max torque N*m @ RPM: 350 @ 1750

- Fuel consumption (L/100km):
-->City: 7.1
-->Highway: 4.4
-->Combined: 5.4

Tell me that doesn't kick the living crap out of the Prius.

Anyways, just my two cents.




RE: Ridiculous
By Solandri on 7/28/2009 3:48:00 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Advantages of diesel:
1) Lower fuel consumption
2) Greater engine efficiency (by nature of design no less)

While diesel engines are more efficient by design, the lower fuel consumption is partly an illusion. Diesel is more dense than gasoline. A liter of diesel represents about 18% more fuel by weight than a liter of gasoline. So in terms of pollution, the 41 MPG VW Jetta TDI diesel is equivalent to a 35 MPG gasoline car.

quote:
- Fuel consumption (L/100km):
-->City: 7.1
-->Highway: 4.4
-->Combined: 5.4

Tell me that doesn't kick the living crap out of the Prius.

The 2010 Prius has an EPA 50 mpg rating, which is 4.7 L/100km. The difference is even more pronounced when you take fuel density into account. Your 5.4 L/100km diesel puts out as much pollution as a 6.4 L/100km gasoline car.


RE: Ridiculous
By Spuke on 7/28/2009 4:27:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Your 5.4 L/100km diesel puts out as much pollution as a 6.4 L/100km gasoline car.
Not with a DPF it won't.


Greenwashing
By BernardP on 7/28/2009 2:35:39 PM , Rating: 2
Painting green foliage around the wheels opening of a diesel car doesn't make it green. Putting aside the CO2/Global Warming collective hysteria, a diesel engine still burns hydrocarbons and produces pollutants. A Prius is not green either. Diesel and hybrids don't clean the air, as automakers would almost have us believe: they simply use less fuel and pollute less. For marketing reasons, carmakers are trying to paint themselves in the most favorable green color.




Why no Diesel-electric hybrids?
By Mr Perfect on 7/28/2009 6:46:59 PM , Rating: 2
"The smart play is to hedge your bets by having entries in both categories," when talking about diesel and hybrid.

Why not combine the best of both worlds? Make a diesel-electric hybrid! The rail companies have been doing it for decades.




What Europe
By MegaManX4 on 7/29/2009 11:22:57 AM , Rating: 2
I am really trying to understand the term "europe" you guys are throwing around here like it is something like the USA.

There is no Europe. There is France, Germany, Finland, Norway, Greece, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, Austria...i think i made my point.

I think that it should be obvious for even the most ignorant US-Citizen, that different countrys have different standards when it comes to pollution and safety in cars.

I am German, and of course our needs for safety and speed exeeds that of our neighbouring countrys. On our "Autobahn" we can usually drive as fast as the car goes and the situation allows to. I myself like to speed my BMW (no, unfortunately not a diesel) till i see stars...whatever.

The point is: Don't forget that Europe is a continent, not a country. Germany is not Hungary or even worse, France.




I love my TDI!
By chunkymonster on 7/29/2009 12:59:56 PM , Rating: 2
Bought a 2005 Jetta TDI in 9/04 and it is by far one of the best cars I have ever owned and driven; and I've owned several cars over the years like Pontiac, Chevy, Ford, Mercury, Toyota, and Chrysler.

Clean diesels engines like that in the Jetta run strong and have plenty of torque for everyday driving. I put many miles up an down the NJ Turnpike and my Jetta TDI has it all over SUV's and larger cars from 55 to 85mph. On average I get 41mpg combined city/highway driving!

The perception that diesels are dirty and noisy is an antiquated view held onto close minded individuals without any ability to think past what commercials tell them to. The real irony of diesel engines and cars is that if you want a job site pick up truck that is reliable and can handle the workload, folks by a diesel. I hear it from my co-workers all the time, "got me a new pick up, got the Cummings diesel for when I need to do some real work." So, if diesels are strong and reliable enough to handle the hard workload of a construction site then doesn't it make sense that a diesel car would provide the same benefits and longevity for the every day commuter? Of course it does!

VW announced a proto-type diesel-electric hybrid that gets over 90mpg! Yep, that's right 90MPG!!!! Ford currently manufactures and sells a diesel car that gets 65mpg, the Fiesta ECOnetic; but they only sell it in EUROPE! WTF?!?! An American car company that makes a car that gets over 60mpg and they do not and will not sell it in the United States?!?! Ridiculous...

WIth the ability to make bio-diesel fuel out of used cooking oil, switchgrass, soybeans, and many other assorted bio-mass, it boggles my mind why alternative fuels sources and alternative fuel vehicles is such a hot button debate.

Americans need to wake up and smell the diesel!




Clean Diesel are good, very good.
By Beenthere on 7/28/2009 12:21:37 PM , Rating: 1
The way you "educate" Americans on the value of clean Diesels is by getting them behind the wheel for a test drive. Most people are amazed on how well, quiet and clean the new Diesels run. Most would think they are driving a gas engine, except it gets 40+ mpg.




Diesel = crap
By FredM on 7/28/09, Rating: -1
RE: Diesel = crap
By wuZheng on 7/28/2009 10:17:52 AM , Rating: 2
Whoa, facts and proof up front, leave your bias at the door please. Diesel is a lot cleaner these days, how much cleaner I am not particularly sure of at this point, but the general consensus seems to be it is at least on par with gasoline emissions. The reasons seem to be two-fold for this:

1) Better refinement and processing of diesel.
2) Better engine and exhaust management technologies.

The old adage that diesel is loud and dirty is something born out of a bad history between North Americans and OLD diesel technology. Welcome to 2009.


RE: Diesel = crap
By HotFoot on 7/28/2009 11:00:05 AM , Rating: 2
The thing is the really old soot-shooting diesels may have been healthier for us. The large soot particles don't penetrate as far and are easier for the body to evacuate from the lungs. As diesel technology improved, the particles got smaller and smaller. To my knowledge (I hope I'm wrong) they're still there. Now you can't see them, but they may be more hazardous to our health now than before.


RE: Diesel = crap
By FredM on 7/28/09, Rating: 0
RE: Diesel = crap
By Pneumothorax on 7/28/2009 11:22:14 AM , Rating: 2
Do you even realize that new 50 state compliant diesel cars are CLEANER than their euro counterparts? EU currently does not require Adblue systems that are found in the BMW/Audi/MB sold here. That's why the euro versions have more power and have better mileage as Adblue is quite restrictive on the exhaust side.


RE: Diesel = crap
By Lord 666 on 7/28/2009 11:31:29 AM , Rating: 2
Just plain wrong,

Check out these videos:

1. http://tdi.vw.com/a-coffee-filter-shows-how-clean-... The Toureq is the 3.0 V6 that requires urea.

2. http://tdi.vw.com/discovery-channels-tory-kari-and... The Jetta does not require a urea solution.

However, my personal favorite is the Toureq V10 5.0; don't care how much it pollutes because it beat the record on Pike's Peak for diesels using a stock truck with different tires. Not to mention navigated itself through the desert. Planning within the year of finally picking one of these beasts up.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/07/30/0566...


RE: Diesel = crap
By Pneumothorax on 7/28/2009 11:46:53 AM , Rating: 2
Notice I didn't include VW in my post. The Jetta engine is small enough not to require Urea, only particulate filter.


RE: Diesel = crap
By Lord 666 on 7/28/2009 12:19:45 PM , Rating: 2
Is your name Fred? My post was directed to him and his comment being stuck in the 80's and 90's.

quote:
Well, Diesel is and will always be more dirty, I'm sorry
http://greenreview.blogspot.com/2009/07/soot-parti...
and there's a test you can do very easily, just put a piece of white coton in front of a diesel exhaust for one minute, and do the same with a gasoline one..tell me which one will be darker after..and think about the coton color is what compared to your lungs


RE: Diesel = crap
By Pneumothorax on 7/28/2009 12:38:23 PM , Rating: 2
lol, sorry my bad, can't follow vertical lines well.

Our diesel doubters should look at the tailpipe of a 09 Jetta TDI/BMW 335d/X5d/Audi diesel and notice that the tailpipe is pristine. Contrast that with the black soot on a 335i/Jetta gasser/X5 gasser.


RE: Diesel = crap
By Spuke on 7/28/2009 4:23:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Contrast that with the black soot on a 335i/Jetta gasser/X5 gasser.
The soot produced by GDI engines is a result of injection overshoot and turbocharging. On "clean" diesel DI engines, the DPF prevents much of the soot from reaching the tailpipe. Emissions are still better on a GDI engine than a diesel DI with DPF although, from what I understand, the difference is negligible. If you put a DPF on a GDI engine, the GDI engines would be even cleaner (and would not have soot on the tailpipe). I also understand that raising the fuel pressures even higher would reduce the tailpipe soot too.


RE: Diesel = crap
By piroroadkill on 7/28/2009 12:04:45 PM , Rating: 2
You're an idiot, and with diesel particulate filters, diesels are more efficient and cleaner than gasoline engines, period.


RE: Diesel = crap
By Spuke on 7/28/2009 4:24:31 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You're an idiot, and with diesel particulate filters, diesels are more efficient and cleaner than gasoline engines, period.
No they're not, see my post above.


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