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Gartner calls recent price cuts by Toshiba "useless resistance."

It's been a rough two months for Toshiba and the HD DVD Promotional Group, and the dark clouds show no signs of clearing. Gartner Inc. is already calling Blu-ray the winner in the high-definition disc arena and says that the recent moves by Toshiba to cut prices is nothing more than "useless resistance."

"Gartner believes that Toshiba's price-cutting may prolong HD DVD's life a little, but the limited line-up of film titles will inflict fatal damage on the format," said Gartner analyst Hiroyuki Shimizu. "Gartner expects that, by the end of 2008, Blu-ray will be the winning format in the consumer market, and the war will be over."

The news from Gartner isn't the only bit of bad news rolling in for the HD DVD camp today, however. Woolworths may be a name that has long since been forgotten in the United States, but the retail chain still lives on in Europe and other regions around the world. The retailer recently announced that its 820 stores will no longer carry HD DVD titles and it instead will put its full support behind Blu-ray.

The company states that the reason for the change of heart was due to Blu-ray's stellar performance over the holiday season -- according to Woolworths, Blu-ray titles held a commanding ten-to-one sales lead over HD DVD titles.

"Sales figures clearly show that the market is moving towards one format of high definition DVD, Woolworths' Steven McGunigel. “The main reason is the success of Sony's PlayStation 3 machine. Because it plays Blu-Ray discs, there are over ¾ million homes in the UK that can view the new high definition format. Switching to Blu-Ray only will provide one clear offer to customers in the format they want to watch high definition movies in."

Woolworths' stores will become Blu-ray exclusive in March. HD DVD titles will continue to be sold from Woolworth's online site, but brick-and-mortar shelf space will be reserved for Blu-ray.

Blu-ray's momentum in the high-definition DVD format war picked up steam when Warner Bros. announced that it would back Blu-ray and cease further HD DVD releases beginning mid-year. Similar announcements were made by New Line Cinema and HBO Home Video.

Ken Graffeo, executive VP for Universal Studios and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group, tried to put a pleasant spin on the recent turn of events and notes that Toshiba's HD DVD players are also perfect for upconverting standard-definition DVDs.

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A few things..
By i4mt3hwin on 1/28/2008 12:43:21 PM , Rating: 5
Most people attribute Blu-ray to Sony and their previous failure media standards. I never really found the reasoning behind this, I mean I know in the end they are doing it to make money, but at least they are furthering the development of future technology + staying competitive and ultimately reducing prices for the consumer. I mean, they could just be one of those companies who just patent everything and sue the earth.

Another thing I don't quite get is concern about regional locked titles. I mean I'm not someone who travels a lot, but I think even if I did, I wouldn't be effected by this. As such, I really find it hard to believe that someone can say that HD-DVD is significantly better.

Either way I hope the prices of blu-ray burners come down and price, i'd like to be able to start storing stuff on these bad boys.




RE: A few things..
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 12:48:45 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Another thing I don't quite get is concern about regional locked titles. I mean I'm not someone who travels a lot, but I think even if I did, I wouldn't be effected by this. As such, I really find it hard to believe that someone can say that HD-DVD is significantly better.

Neither is particularly better than the other, and only minor differences are present between the formats. However as a good example for you. A DVD was released in Europe (Region 2) that is available on VHS here in the states, however no Region 1 (USA) DVD exists. If someone from the states wanted to play it they would need to watch it on a computer usually with a Region Free hack. Region coding is just an annoyance for consumers who can't get it locally and need to buy it online and have it shipped in. Region coding can kind of screw you there. There's many BBC series I would like to get here in the states but alas its region 2 only. Forcing me to either copy the disks and modify the region or use a region free hack on my computer to play them. That's my beef with region coding.

quote:
Either way I hope the prices of blu-ray burners come down and price, i'd like to be able to start storing stuff on these bad boys.

Good luck with that. Even DVD burners took a long time to come down in price, not to mention the blank media. Right now BR and HD blanks are not worth the cost... we won't even get into the cost of the burners :(


RE: A few things..
By hiscross on 1/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: A few things..
By hiscross on 1/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: A few things..
By aliasfox on 1/28/2008 3:26:38 PM , Rating: 5
While the site does have an anti-Apple bias, I don't think you were rated down because of it, rather I think you have the facts incorrect.

The Power Mac G4/733 was the first commercially available computer with Pioneer's A01 DVD-R burner, and it, along with DVD Studio Pro gave Apple an early lead in that (admittedly niche) market.

Kind of a hollow victory though, given that within a few months Pioneer (and a few others) were selling the bare drives for any computer for significantly less than Apple was selling it for as a BTO option. And before you say anything about me being anti-Apple, I own three Macs from that era.

Back to the topic at hand: I'll wait until Paramount caves before I declare a victory. That, and I *really* don't want to pay $30-50 for a movie.


RE: A few things..
By hiscross on 1/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: A few things..
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 3:29:20 PM , Rating: 5
We don't hate apple we hate stupid comments stating a company in which at the time was floundering, had its smallest market penetration in its history (under 5%) and was in such financial disarray that Microsoft the devil itself, injected some 250 million dollars into the company to help keep it afloat.

Does this seem like a company that would have been in position to push DVD-R/+R into the mass market. You can't just get companies to drop prices for no reason, Apple would have needed spend a lot of money to make such a movie, and at the time they were in no such position to do so.


RE: A few things..
By hiscross on 1/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: A few things..
By mikeyD95125 on 1/28/2008 11:50:43 PM , Rating: 2
+2 is the default rating.

It means you didn't say anything someone especially like, and you managed not to piss someone off.

Most people just don't think you can make a serious claim that Apple was the company that had DVD gain mass market penetration.


RE: A few things..
By erikejw on 1/29/2008 3:15:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I guess this site really hates it when Apple gives it a reality check.


If anyone needs a reality check it is Apple.

The think they run the world and acts as if they destroy any competition but their market share is 1%. Their phone might have 0.01% of the market.


RE: A few things..
By boogle on 1/28/2008 3:16:40 PM , Rating: 5
Apple have less than 10% of the desktop PC market...
As much as some people would like to believe it, Apple aren't on a holy crusade to help the customer by reducing prices. They're a company out for profit, and the very fact that their stuff with the same spec costs MORE than the equivalent PC from say, Dell or HP implies, at least to me, that they like to get as much cash as possible rather than reducing prices as you seem to imply.

In the UK in 2007, mp3 downloads accounted for about £163 million worth of revenue. By 2012 its predicted to be around £600 million. Meanwhile CD sales are £4.2 billion (2007). Downloads are a LONG way off from supplanting physical media. HD movies are MASSIVE in filesize compared to mp3s, so they're even further off. The advantage of downloadable stuff is its almost instant gratification - with a HD movie you'll have to download overnight for a single movie.


RE: A few things..
By ZoZo on 1/28/2008 1:54:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Right now BR and HD blanks are not worth the cost... we won't even get into the cost of the burners :(


Actually the cost of the burners is not too bad, the LG drives at under $300 are a good deal and can even read HD-DVD. Sure it's much more expensive than DVD burners, but if the Blu-ray media was nearly as cheap as DVD media, it would be a good deal.


RE: A few things..
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 2:10:14 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Actually the cost of the burners is not too bad, the LG drives at under $300 are a good deal and can even read HD-DVD.
But the media still costs you an arm and and a leg. You can buy an external 500GB hard drive for the price of 5 or 6 writable BD discs. I also hope you do not expect prices to drop quickly either, DVD's took forever to drop in price, and with Sony at the helm, I do not see BD media being affordable any time soon.


RE: A few things..
By BansheeX on 1/28/2008 4:32:05 PM , Rating: 3
The assertion that price will not drop because Sony is involved is misinformed. And you complain about price now, but what exactly is the alternative? This is just one of those new technology situations where the yields and costs must improve over time. It can't happen overnight no matter how badly you want it to. DVD burning was just as prohibitively expensive when it came out compared to then cheap CD-R. It's not like HD-DVD is going to offer a greater $-per-GB value. You're simply getting the discs themselves at a cheaper price faster due to the inherently better yields of a lower technological push. I choose to wait a little longer for affordability and get a 25gb standard rather than 15gb.


RE: A few things..
By glennpratt on 1/31/2008 1:41:41 AM , Rating: 2
I think the assertion is well informed. Check the price of any other Sony foisted media lately? MemoryStick, MiniDisc, Universal Media Disc, SACD, Beta, whatever, it all costs more.

I think in the long run, all of these formats were bad for the consumer by overstaying their welcome, at least at the consumer level.


RE: A few things..
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 2:25:09 PM , Rating: 3
The LG drives you are referencing are readers only. The cheapest Blu-Ray burner I could find is a LiteOn 2x for ~400.
http://www.amazon.com/Serial-Blu-ray-Triple-Writer...

I was unable to find an HD DVD burner for desktops in my brief 10 minute search.


RE: A few things..
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 3:31:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I was unable to find an HD DVD burner for desktops in my brief 10 minute search.
The only HD burners i have seen have been in laptops, mostly in Toshiba models.


RE: A few things..
By Armorize on 1/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: A few things..
By chance1138 on 1/28/2008 5:02:45 PM , Rating: 2
Somebody forgot to read the newegg post they sarcastically submitted.

LG Black 16X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 4X DVD+R DL 16X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 5X DVD-RAM DVD-ROM: 16X Blu-ray DVD-ROM: 6X HD DVD-ROM: 3X DVD-ROM 40X CD-R 24X CD-RW 4MB Cache SATA Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVD±R DVD Burner - Retail

It is not a Blu-Ray or HD DVD burner, which is what the previous author said he couldn't find for less than 400 bucks.


RE: A few things..
By Denigrate on 1/28/2008 6:12:52 PM , Rating: 2
He probably messed it up because Newegg had an LG for that same price before/right after Christmas that DID burn Bluray.


RE: A few things..
By Noya on 1/28/2008 3:47:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
watch it on a computer usually with a Region Free hack. Region coding is just an annoyance for consumers who can't get it locally and need to buy it online and have it shipped in. Region coding can kind of screw you there. There's many BBC series I would like to get here in the states but alas its region 2 only. Forcing me to either copy the disks and modify the region or use a region free hack on my computer to play them. That's my beef with region coding.


Umm...most DVD players (even the $40 models) have a region code hack engaged by pressing a series of buttons on the remote. And I thought this was a tech site...


RE: A few things..
By Armorize on 1/28/2008 4:39:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Good luck with that. Even DVD burners took a long time to come down in price, not to mention the blank media. Right now BR and HD blanks are not worth the cost... we won't even get into the cost of the burners :(


I believe it will take a lot less time than it did for DVD. With as many different portable burners that are out for laptops and such they will probably be in the more affordable range before next October or so. They have already went down significantly from the original $599 to the LG's HDDVD/Blu-Ray burner at $299. It shouldn't be much longer before other OEM's start making either mix format burners or just single format burners for cheaper.


RE: A few things..
By Hieyeck on 1/31/2008 12:51:27 PM , Rating: 2
From the looks of things, BRs/HDs won't be coming down in price soon enough. With mass storage developments becoming a greater occurence, and hard drives getting cheaper - optical storage may end up only being practical for distribution.

Personally, I've already made the choice. I mostly used CDs and DVDs for storing my anime and with BR developments, I really sat down to look at my options. While it's still more expensive per gig, the time it takes to burn a dozen DVDs worth of data is simply too long. The time it takes to burn 500GB worth of stuff, I can make a few hundred dollars working overtime at my job and buy 3 500GB HDDs for extra convenience and it takes up alot less space to boot. By the time BRs get down to any reasonable price, we'd be throwing around TB drives like it was scrap metal.

http://www.dailytech.com/Western+Digital+introduce...
http://www.dailytech.com/Nanochip+Promises+100GBpe...


RE: A few things..
By Malhavoc on 1/28/2008 12:58:09 PM , Rating: 2
From what I understand, the region coding is on the Blu-ray hardware for those who need it. Media providers do not have to implement it. It is there for those companies who have only regional distribution rights, or in other words those who share worldwide distribution rights by region.

So in reality, the region coding is only the fault of those delivering the distribution rights, not the manufacturers.


RE: A few things..
By dubldwn on 1/28/2008 1:28:07 PM , Rating: 2
I believe region coding is to allow for selling a blu-ray disk in, say, England, for $30, and then selling that same disk in, say, Pakistan for $3. Region coding prevents English users from using the Pakistani disk.


RE: A few things..
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 1:50:42 PM , Rating: 2
I thought the language would do it by itself but call me crazy.


RE: A few things..
By RaulF on 1/28/2008 2:18:32 PM , Rating: 4
Wrong the region coding is available to the studios so they can release a movie in a certain area in DVD or Blu ray while restricted if it is still being or has not been shown at the movie teathers in another region.

And all the BS about Blu ray having region coding and HDDVD not having is BS, since most Blu ray dont even use it, it is there as an option the studios decide to use it or not, not the BDA.


RE: A few things..
By hubajube on 1/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: A few things..
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 3:48:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Doesn't matter. Bluray is the superior format and the HD DVDistas needs to quit nit picking Bluray. Region coding has been a part of DVD for years. We're all used to it. Let's move on.
What does being a superior format have to do with anything. DVD was the one and only format, but region coding is still bullshit.

Regardless if sony is the 'winning and superior format', it does have its downfalls, and region coding is one of them regardless how you want to spin it. Coding did barely anything for DVD, and it will do barely anything for BD when they start to use region coding more as the format matures.(same thing happened with DVD).

A mistake was made with DVD's, and HD-DVD group saw this as a problem, and a good selling point for its format. BD was probably pressured by the big movie players to continue with this coding practice. Something us consumers might have to get used too. Something gives me a feeling Sony sold its soul to secure BD's spot as the winning format.

Both formats had their pro's and con's, just because BD was named winner does not give them a clean slate by any means.

p.s I have both formats, and i still do not consider BD the superior format unless you have a PS3. Without the ability to update profiles, BD has the biggest weakness of all, and it will not go away anytime soon.


RE: A few things..
By RaulF on 1/29/2008 9:24:47 AM , Rating: 2
Wow talk about a dead horse, the region coding is not used to restrict the actual movie like you think.

Here it is Barney style for you.

Pirates of the Caribean gets relased on Blu ray or DVD or HDDVD(it will not) in the United states. But let's say that just a week before the same movie just got released at the Theathers in Spain, well then Disney will region lock it so the people living in Spain will spend the money on the theaters and not import the disc and loose money for the theater. Whether you like it or not, the studios and the theaters are partners and will do anything to damage that relationship. It is a major cash cow for both.
Do you see why there's region coding? And like i said, even thoug it is on the Blu ray spec, i think about 90% or Blu rays do not use region coding, that includes the ones that are released overseas that are exclusive to HDDVD here in the states.


RE: A few things..
By pomaikai on 1/28/2008 4:36:22 PM , Rating: 5
Really. Its movie format sucks. All it has is the superior disc. Both use the same enoding schemes. It has alot less features than HD-DVD. The Blu Ray players suck. Head over to Blu-Ray.com's forums and all you see are complaints and people wanting firmware updates that arent available. Head over to HD-DVD.com's forums and there response to any issue is to upgrade the firmware and problem solved.

Please inform us why Blu Ray is superior other than disc size.

HD-DVD focused on customer experience while Blu Ray focused on having the most disc storage.


RE: A few things..
By goodstuff on 1/29/08, Rating: 0
RE: A few things..
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 2:22:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I believe region coding is to allow for selling a blu-ray disk in, say, England, for $30, and then selling that same disk in, say, Pakistan for $3. Region coding prevents English users from using the Pakistani disk.
That is their reasoning, although i really do not see the advantage You would think this would only help support movie pirating. Believe it or not most people are honest and buy close to MSRP, the small percentage whom would have bought those $3 Pakistani DVD's will probably end up buying pirated DVD's anyways. Or do something like kenobi mentioned, to get past the region coding.

I am also a proponent of region less movies. If i support said format, I should be able to play any movie I want. Those whom would take advantage, will find another way anyways, so why not make everyone happy.


RE: A few things..
By boogle on 1/28/2008 3:08:23 PM , Rating: 2
Region coding is used to enforce distribution rights. In Europe and other non-US territories companies other than the studio itself handle distribution. If a company could just import the US version cheaper (or vice versa) it would destroy the distribution agreements.

This is particularly useful in non-english speaking territories, since many people like the original non-dubbed version. Without region coding a big cottage industry would pop up and resell the American release, bypassing the distribution agreements.

Either way I don't paticularly like region coding, but it makes sense in a few cases. At least with blu-ray only the studios obsessed with enforcing their will actually use the regions. Warner are 100% region free... Fox are 100% region locked.


RE: A few things..
By goodstuff on 1/29/2008 9:40:25 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly. There are plenty of Blu-Ray that are not region encoded, as mentioned, it's up to the distributor. Example, New Line would not release HD-DVD's day and date with the Blu-ray/DVD because it DIDN'T have region coding. Now of course New Line is Blu exclusive, so it's moot.


RE: A few things..
By zinfamous on 1/28/2008 1:00:38 PM , Rating: 2
there are a few cases where the European release in either HD DVD or Blu Ray will actually be a better (or worse) encode than its counterpart in the US. Again, not because of differences in technology, but because of the encode that the groups chose to use, or the version of the film that was authorized for different regions (case in point: various versions of Casino Royale distributed in Blu Ray over different regions)

This kind of thing only matters to the uber A/V afficionados, and will never become mainstream. Added to that the extreme markup involved in importing those non-regionally encoded HD DVDs (upwards of $50 a disc when you convert currency and include shipping), the open region argument for HD DVD is rather lacking.


Gartner
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 12:40:18 PM , Rating: 1
Topic at hand aside, how often is Gartner right about any of their predictions? I find them wrong in most predictions I have seen made. Topic at hand aside.




RE: Gartner
By Polynikes on 1/28/2008 12:54:06 PM , Rating: 2
Master Kenobi, are you getting a little senile in your old age? You're repeating yourself.

I'll cut you some slack, though, seeing as how you're dead and all. ;)


RE: Gartner
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 1:00:18 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, dying has certaintly taken a toll on my mental prowess. I just noticed I repeated myself..... what can I say, it's been a looooooong morning.


RE: Gartner
By Mitch101 on 1/28/2008 2:11:00 PM , Rating: 1
We gave Warner Brothers an Award for choosing Blu-Ray.

http://www.freshscoop.com/modules.php?name=News&fi...


RE: Gartner
By jacarte8 on 1/28/2008 2:15:01 PM , Rating: 3
I guess that's why now you're more powerful than I could possibly imagine...


RE: Gartner
By melgross on 1/28/2008 12:59:38 PM , Rating: 5
Like most people, you only remember what you want to. It's like weather broadcasts. They are correct 80+% of the time, but people only seem to remember when they are wrong.

But it doesn't take Gartner's statement to tell what is obvious. HD-DVD is dead. Toshiba is either, at best, breaking even on its player sales at the new lower prices, or losing money on them. It's very likely they know it's over, but want to dump the remaining stocks so they don't lose everything.

I've been recommending to my two friends who bought into HD-DVD, convinced that it would win because of the specious arguments around, that they should buy a cheap player for the eventuality that theirs will break down, and no new players will be available. That likely won't happen for a while. But the possibility that no new designs will be sold, is pretty good.

The information about the 10:1 sales ratio around the world is very interesting. It's mostly in the US that people are mainly concerned by price. I remember the frustration the Japanese companies had over the failure to sell the "S" format VCR's. They found that around the world, they sold well, but complained that in the States, people only cared about price.

This tends to be true. It gives us a distorted view of what's really happening. People elsewhere will usually opt for what they perceive as the newer, higher quality formats, and machines. These numbers are more proof of that.

One less major outlet for HD-DVD will only hasten the inevitable.


RE: Gartner
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 1:03:06 PM , Rating: 1
I suppose the only time the news runs Gartner articles in IT is when they make some assinine predictions that has most sysadmins up in arms and questions about what Gartner was smoking that week.


RE: Gartner
By hubajube on 1/28/2008 2:56:27 PM , Rating: 1
I have to agree that Gartner smokes fatties most of the time and I have no idea why he bothered to chime in here. HD DVD's death is pretty obvious.


RE: Gartner
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 3:06:45 PM , Rating: 2
More than pretty obvious, its been half played out. It's nice they can tell of HD-DVS's demise 3 weeks after warner's exclusivity announcement, and two full weeks after claims that Sony has an 85%+ advantages in sales after WB's announcement.


RE: Gartner
By bfellow on 1/28/2008 3:49:37 PM , Rating: 3
The HD wars will never end. Apple will just continue it by pitting Blu-Ray vs. its subscription based HD downloads. Even Steve Jobs himself hinted at a war by saying his download service is "superior" to HD disc players


RE: Gartner
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 4:31:17 PM , Rating: 2
BD and HD-DVD's cost me $30+ a pop and I would still rather buy the movie over downloading it. When prices drop to the DVD range its going to much harder to sell HD content online.

Online movie releases are not going to be as popular in the beginning as people are making them out to be.

If it was such a successful and good idea, it would have already been done with DVD's. Yet i do not see the online movie download business of SD movies taking off.

Most users who download movies off the net also happen to watch on their computer <gasp>. And for these movies to even stack up against BD they are going to have to be comparable with 1080p. So theres another bundle of cash buying a new HDCP video card and monitor. Not only that but, the new massive bandwidth requirements that would be required, and the extra download time. (even a compressed 720p movie is going to be around 3Gigs)

Mr jobs is putting a little too much faith into a technology with this many prerequisites. I foresee these technologies being mainstream sometime in the future, but not in the lifetime of Blu-Ray.


RE: Gartner
By diablofish on 1/28/2008 4:37:18 PM , Rating: 2
Here's the other problem with downloadable content: making back-ups of the movies you've downloaded. Hard drives don't last forever, and what happens when the hard drives dies and all your downloaded content goes with it and you haven't backed up (which is the VAST majority of computer users)? Now Windows Home Server is a step to address this issue, but we're not there yet. With a disc, I have a copy that unless I completely mishandle it or my player dies, it will work. Even if it's scratched, replacing one copy of one movie is far less of a hassle than replacing an entire library that's stored on a hard drive. Likewise for replacing a player: drive to store, purchase, drive home.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are the "next gen wars" and downloading movies appears to be the next next generation.


RE: Gartner
By anotherdude on 1/28/2008 6:33:01 PM , Rating: 3
But how many of us really care about owning a DVD? I'd just as soon rent myself. If I like it that much I'll just rent it again a few years down the road. I guess if you have a lot of disposable income you acquire a taste for owning? No way I'm putting down 4 to 5 times the price just to put it on my shelf.

They make nice presents though.


RE: Gartner
By mcturkey on 1/29/2008 12:17:16 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, many many MILLIONS of consumers care about owning the physical media with movies. Unlike music, which is an inherently portable experience, well over 99% of home movie watching is done on a TV. That's not going to change anytime soon, no matter how amazing any download service becomes. Until there are massive improvements in ease of use, speed, and reliability for download services, sales of physical discs will not be going away or even diminishing anytime soon.

This "future" everyone likes to speak of in regards to download services for movies or games is a lot further off than most pundits seem to recognize. The barriers to the average consumer accepting this sort of technology are substantial right now. I'd like to see a poll of people taken on their way out of Walmart or Target or Best Buy on Tuesdays after the release of a big movie, asking if anyone would prefer to download their movies for the same price (or a couple dollars cheaper) as the DVD/BR/HDDVD they just bought. Also ask if they'd even known such technology was in the works. I'd be willing to wager the results would surprise most of the downloading-is-the-future folks.


RE: Gartner
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 3:20:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's mostly in the US that people are mainly concerned by price.
Not true at all, remember Toshiba players were really only cheaper in the US, around the world HD-DVD prices were on par or higher than BD especially in Europe. Price greatly shaped the outcome of the High-Def war in Europe. HD-DVD players in Europe cost more or the same as BD players. The PS3 helped out even more there as it was cheaper than both brands of standalone players. It is no wonder why BD holds such a firm hold in Europe, and this can be blame solely on 'drum role please....' PRICE! .

Price always matters, it does not matter where you are from. To think Europeans do not care about price, when their taxes are higher, cost of living is on average higher and prices for imported goods are higher is ridiculous.

Toshiba greatly underestimated the influence that the rest of the world would have on the next high def format, and when it came down to it, it was prices around the world that mattered, not who could introduce their product into the US market the quickest and cheapest.


RE: Gartner
By hubajube on 1/28/2008 3:39:46 PM , Rating: 4
I agree with one thing from the HD DVD camp. The consumers had no say so in determining the format of choice. Warner Bros moved to Bluray and HD DVD died. This had nothing to do with us and everything to do with the studios. It's about time that they did and I don't know what Paramount and the others are waiting for. Bluray is here to stay so the remaining studios need to stop BSing and get moving.


RE: Gartner
By AntiM on 1/28/2008 1:09:03 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, and I didn't realize Woolworths was such an international retail giant that it would have such an influence on anything.

BTW, isn't the porn industy still stuck with HD-DVD since Sony won't license their BR technology to them? That would at least keep HD-DVD in existance.


RE: Gartner
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 1:15:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yeah, and I didn't realize Woolworths was such an international retail giant that it would have such an influence on anything.

They aren't. It's just another pot shot at HD.

quote:
BTW, isn't the porn industy still stuck with HD-DVD since Sony won't license their BR technology to them? That would at least keep HD-DVD in existance.

Yes and No. HD DVD is cheaper for the porn industry since they can re-tool the existing DVD lines to print HD DVD media. Sony won't subsidize lines for the porn industry, and I suspect this has something to do with Disney. There was a mistake on a small run of a DVD produced by Disney that had a little bit of adult content on it because the line was shared. I can't find a specific link to the event but I recall that Disney was quite ticked off.


RE: Gartner
By melgross on 1/28/08, Rating: 0
RE: Gartner
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 1:49:24 PM , Rating: 2
Discs yes. I was referring to the retooling cost of the existing DVD lines. It's a one time sunk cost associated with BRD.


RE: Gartner
By omnicronx on 1/28/2008 2:34:09 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Woolworth is a large retailer out of the US, and Adult films are being produced on BD. That restriction ended months ago. It doesn't cost filmmakers any more to do this.
Woolworth does not exist anymore in the United States. The only part of the store remaining is sporting goods division, which was renamed to Footlocker in the early 90's and many of the stores were converted into Walmarts (atleast here in canada). Last time i checked they did not sell BD movies or electronics, nor would i buy such items from a clerk wearing a referee t-shirt ;)

As for porn on BD, Sony has always had a harsh stance against the porno industry, stretching all the way back to the betamax days. Most of the porno industry are currently releasing their movies on HD-DVD, or dual release with BD. You would be hard pressed to find many movies that are BD exclusives.

As for the price, he was not talking about the cost of production for the BD laser. He was talking about the price for converting current DVD production lines into HD-DVD lines. HD-DVD only requires small changes to the line, where as BD requires totally new equipement. For a small porno company this could make or break you. Licensing fee's are also cheaper for HD-DVD which once again is a pro for smaller companies. You fail to recognize that although these prices and fees may mean nothing to the big movie players (warner fox sony etc), it could mean the difference between making or losing money on their next gen releases.


RE: Gartner
By Timeless on 1/28/2008 9:06:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Woolworth is a large retailer out of the US,


quote:
Woolworth does not exist anymore in the United States.


Omnicronx, he said outside of the US. He made no mention about Woolworth in the US or Canada.


RE: Gartner
By kelmon on 1/29/2008 4:58:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Woolworth is a large retailer out of the US


But, it should be noted, one very much in decline. The problem with Woolies is that no one is really sure what they are there for and I definitely don't buy movies from them since they tend to be expensive. As much as I'd like to see the format war over the Woolies announcement is certainly met a "so what?" statement. Honestly, I'm constantly surprised when I go back to the UK that the chain is still in existence.


RE: Gartner
By kattanna on 1/28/2008 2:15:57 PM , Rating: 2
Gartner would also claim that the dinosaurs aren't going to make it.

aka, they "predict" stuff long known by others.


RE: Gartner
By neilrieck on 1/30/2008 10:06:10 PM , Rating: 2
Does anybody take Gartner seriously anymore? Aren't their opinions "bought and paid for" by the marketing departments of any given product's competition?


Let's all go with the winner...
By Nanobaud on 1/28/2008 12:48:33 PM , Rating: 3
If recent activity is indeed sufficient to declare a format winner, then the champion high-def video disc format is clear and indisputable: upscaled standard DVDs.

Can I get a 'whoop whoop'?




By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 12:51:13 PM , Rating: 1
No doubt. DVD's still make up the bulk of my purchases and I own a high def player. Problem is TV series, and programs are still DVD-Only for the most part. Planet Earth is the only one in recent memory that I could find on either high def format, things like Stargate, 24, etc... are all DVD only still. This is helping to slow high def adoption overall.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By Anh Huynh on 1/28/2008 12:51:32 PM , Rating: 2
Whoop whoop, however, IPTV // On-demand // Downloadable movies will probably kill off Blu-ray.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By melgross on 1/28/2008 1:05:32 PM , Rating: 4
Not for some time. First they have to broadcast at the same quality level. That will take years, if ever. And when they do, you miss all the features.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 1:10:22 PM , Rating: 2
Well to be fair, I think few people really partake in all the "extras" packed into DVD's. I think the "Deleted Scenes" are the only things I have ever used.


By melgross on 1/28/2008 1:50:50 PM , Rating: 3
I agree. But, it doesn't matter which part you see, you're still looking at the extra's. Some are better than others. When they are good, I watch them.

There is a minority of people watching them, but it's also much higher than zero.

Heh! Higher than the number of HD-DVD movies being sold!


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By kilkennycat on 1/28/2008 1:19:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Whoop whoop, however, IPTV // On-demand // Downloadable movies will probably kill off Blu-ray.


Not if Time-Warner's pilot exercise on monthly bandwidth caps in Beaumont, Texas catches on with other ISPs and network-providers. No doubt T-W would arrange exclusions from the limits for Warner movie downloads :-)

See:-

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080122-shoo...

I would be somewhat less cynical than the article-writer. P2P transfers of copyright material is currently estimated to occupy 90% of Internet traffic. Domestic bandwidth caps would sure put a crimp on this usage. How that would be reconciled with legitimate download businesses such as Direct2Disk, Steam and the legal movie downloads to which you refer is the big problem that would need to be solved.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 2:29:57 PM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure making a special exception for their content would be deemded illegal. Time-Warner ISP and Warner Movies are technically two different companies.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By bfellow on 1/28/2008 3:52:42 PM , Rating: 3
Fact: Less than 3% of all video sales were either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

I think IPTV/subscription service will keep HD discs from being mainstream as well as most people can't tell difference between 720p/1080i broadcast on a channel vs. 1080p from a disc.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 7:06:16 PM , Rating: 2
That says more about their TV than the format itself. The larger the TV the more apparent it can be, but then again most of us arent touting 1080p 60"+ TV's lol. I hardly notice a difference between 1080p and 1080i on my 37" TV.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By EglsFly on 1/28/2008 5:35:40 PM , Rating: 2
You could have said the same thing years ago that VHS was the winner when DVDs first came out. Of course the existing format will be "currently" outselling any new format.
How's your 8-Track collection coming along?

Now back on topic, lets talk about the winner of the new High Definition discs. After Warner's announcement, the last 2 weeks, Toshiba's format has been taking it on the chin:
http://charts.highdefdigest.com/history.aspx?TYPE=...

Its only going to get worse for Toshiba once the Warner stops selling that format.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By Belard on 1/29/2008 9:46:49 PM , Rating: 2
But DVD was never in a format war with VHS. It was a completely different technology replacement path.

VHS/BetaMAX/V2000 were in a format war because THEY did pretty much the same thing. Recorded 4-6hrs of video, played tapes, etc.

DVD + / - R was a format war since they both were pretty much the EXACT same thing. Which was actually better? I guess + because its positive ;)

DVD vs Laser Disc wasn't a ware. I still have my LD collections... Laser Disc didn't have a chance.


RE: Let's all go with the winner...
By Etsp on 2/1/2008 10:58:08 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, DVD vs Laser Disc wasn't a war... it was a massacre.


Sad day when Blu Ray wins
By pomaikai on 1/28/2008 2:21:14 PM , Rating: 2
It is a sad day when blu ray wins. Most comments from those that own both formats (personal and online) says HD-DVD is better. The controls are better and the features are better on HD-DVD. The quality of movie on both is the same. The only complaint is the lack of good movies on HD-DVD.

I have not purchased either because I prefer the HD-DVD format and players, but it is lacking the movies I want. I will not pick up a Blu Ray because it is a spec that is still not finalized. Hopefully profile 2.0 will be the last update to the spec.

Its sad that early adopters got stuck on the disc size and not the actual user experience. Kinda sounds like what they did with PS3. People bought PS3 because of specs and not actual user experience. I couldnt tell you how many people that own PS3s that just sit there as a movie player because of lack of good games.




RE: Sad day when Blu Ray wins
By RaulF on 1/28/2008 3:21:58 PM , Rating: 2
The only plus HDDVD has on my book is a finish profile. Yes the early adopters might have gotten screw in your book, but most of them knew what they were getting into. The basics is to watch a movie at the best fidelity possible and even the early adopters will be able to do that with their 1.0 players. Think about it in a way that at least is a plus as in the players can be upgraded as the profiles get implemented.
DVD had profiles too, but we never got into the same way as this time around. The first DVD players could not play DTS and were missing alot of features standard today on all DVD players, so think about that.
I still dont see why everybody bashes the PS3 because of no good games, it has a few already and the console is barely a year old, it took almost the same time for the 360 to have great tittles too, 08 will be a great year for the playstation, and all the people that were putting it down, will most likely pick one up.


RE: Sad day when Blu Ray wins
By pomaikai on 1/28/2008 4:20:52 PM , Rating: 2
Yes. Head over to the blu-ray.com forum and all you see are issues with the current players. Everyone is wanting firmware updates because there player doesnt support the features and the are having hardware issues. Sucks to be the masses that dont have an ethernet port. No firmware updates for you.

Go over to HD-DVD.com forums and they are getting regular firmware updates and seem to be having more problems with little issues that are more of connectivity between Player and TV and not with hardware itself.

People bash the PS3 because it is over-hyped. It was supposed to have the best games, best graphics, etc. The response from PS3 owners is just wait and see how good it will be. Why purchase one just to wait. Like you said Once the great games come out I may pick it up, but I dont see any reason to buy one just to wait and see.


RE: Sad day when Blu Ray wins
By AlphaVirus on 1/28/2008 5:21:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes. Head over to the blu-ray.com forum and all you see are issues with the current players. Everyone is wanting firmware updates because there player doesnt support the features and the are having hardware issues. Sucks to be the masses that dont have an ethernet port. No firmware updates for you

Lets see, if you are accessing a forum online, that means you have internet. If you have internet, that means you have a computer of some sort. If you have a computer, most likely you have a cd burner.

Cant you just burn the updates to a disc and install them to your player?

quote:
People bash the PS3 because it is over-hyped.

The PS3 is not really overhyped, the people who want it just buy it, the people who gripe about it just dont buy it. The iphone was overhyped my friend.

quote:
It was supposed to have the best games, best graphics, etc.

This would really be an opinion based on the single user.

quote:
The response from PS3 owners is just wait and see how good it will be. Why purchase one just to wait.

If you own one, you would already know how great it is, but it is always improving with the firmware updates so thats the only wait anyone has.

quote:
Like you said Once the great games come out I may pick it up, but I dont see any reason to buy one just to wait and see.

There are plenty of reasons to pick one up, for 2008 is has at least 30 exclusive gaming titles coming out.

The most anticipated game would be Resistance Fall of Man 2. It will be a chart killer for sure with promised 8 player co-op and like 62 player online multiplayer.

Oh and as a side note, people who complain about the price of a PS3, remember that the online/internet use is free. The 360 has a silver service that is free but the gold you must pay for and over the lifetime of your subscription, the 360 becomes more expensive than a PS3.

Sorry I got carried away a bit, lol I am just ready to leave work.


RE: Sad day when Blu Ray wins
By Noliving on 1/28/2008 6:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
He's nothing more then a hddvd supporter, all he is doing is reposting the same post over and over again with just some differences in the way the sentences are created.

Just ignore him.


RE: Sad day when Blu Ray wins
By pomaikai on 1/28/2008 11:59:11 PM , Rating: 2
I do not support hd-dvd. I dont own one and never will because of movie selection. I am at a stand still about the next format. I like the idea of downloads, but to get a decent HD movie it takes atleast 4-5gigs and that will take forever to download with US download speeds. I prefer to rip discs and stream it.

I am reposting the same thing because no one has answered my question ever. In what way does Blu Ray provide a better movie watching experience than HD-DVD?

One example for HD-DVD. You can download updates directly to player. You dont have to go through the hassle of burning to CD and putting it in the player.


RE: Sad day when Blu Ray wins
By pomaikai on 1/29/2008 12:22:09 AM , Rating: 2
My only issue wih PS3 is game support. This is improving greatly and have no doubt 2008 will be a good year for PS3. It is widely known that up to now PS3 game support has been pathetic. In the past multiplatform games have been better on 360 because it was ported over to PS3 without polishing it up.

I actually have no issue with the price because it has one of the best and cheapest blu ray players that will easily upgrade to whatever profile Blu Ray camp releases.

quote:
There are plenty of reasons to pick one up, for 2008 is has at least 30 exclusive gaming titles coming out.


Listen to yourself. There are 30 exclusive titles "COMING OUT". 2008 "WILL" be a great year. Resistance 2 "WILL" be a chart killer. It has not even been announced when it will come out. Everything about PS3 is always about what it will have and not what it does have.

I might pick it up when I can actually go out and buy a few of these chart killer games.


I wonder
By pauldovi on 1/28/2008 1:15:18 PM , Rating: 2
Can anyone actually tell the difference between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. If you were to plug in the same movie to the same TVs with each HD-DVD and Blu-Ray would anyone be able to tell the difference?

I don't think they would. Thats why I never understood the bickering about technology. It is all about cost to me.

But I could care less either way. I am an observing in this is battle. I don't expect to purchase either technology for quite some time.




RE: I wonder
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 1:17:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Can anyone actually tell the difference between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. If you were to plug in the same movie to the same TVs with each HD-DVD and Blu-Ray would anyone be able to tell the difference?

Since they are encoded in exactly the same on both formats the answer would be no. This is more of an issue with your TV than either format or the movie.


RE: I wonder
By notfeelingit on 1/28/2008 1:59:20 PM , Rating: 1
Maybe to limit costs movie releases are currently both being encoded the same, but Blu-Ray offers the potential for higher bitrate movies (more space) which can have a significant impact on IQ.


RE: I wonder
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/28/2008 7:12:01 PM , Rating: 2
BR is going to stick with VC-1 which fits nicely on both Disks. The only time BR had an advantage was when Sony was using Mpeg2 and well.... those movies looked terrible, however this could be attributed to poor transfer from the original film.


RE: I wonder
By RaulF on 1/29/2008 9:19:46 AM , Rating: 2
While some MPEG-2 transfer looked horrible some looked great if i do say so myself. Just like you said it goes back to the master the encoder and how much money the studio spent on making the movie look good.

If anyone thinks MPEG-2 is bad i suggest you rent or buy(your choice) Black Hawk Down or Xmen-3 of the top of my head both use MPEG-2 and looked near perfect. It boils down to how much money is spent on the transfer.


RE: I wonder
By TheDoc9 on 1/28/2008 1:35:30 PM , Rating: 2
This is true, often they are the same quality rip, possibly even the same encoded video file. HD-DVD is more of a stop gap between generations, it only brings a small increase in space to the table and lets face it - the idea of 4 layer hd-dvd's was sensationalism to sell product and that's all. Also blu-ray has a much larger headroom for much higher quality encodings, they seem to use about 3/4 of the video bandwidth of blu-ray now from what I've seen, but it's often maxed out with HD-DVD. The other 1/4 might not improve the picture much but it is there.

I think most people buying high def now are the gamers and programmers and computer enthusiasts who move technology forward. When someone like that looks at the specs of HD-DVD and then sees the blu-ray spec having much more space and better built discs with new materials and whatever else. It sells, and the ps3 aspect certainly hasn't hurt either.


RE: I wonder
By melgross on 1/28/2008 1:54:22 PM , Rating: 2
Unless you buy the cheap HD-DVD player that has up to 1080i rather than "p", and had a good enough set, and sat closely enough to actually SEE the detail (which few people do), no.


Misleading title
By gregm81 on 1/28/2008 12:56:31 PM , Rating: 3
It should say "...Woolworths Backs Blu-ray Exclusively in-store"




RE: Misleading title
By melgross on 1/28/2008 1:07:15 PM , Rating: 2
True, but the stores are likely 90% of their volume.


RE: Misleading title
By DarkElfa on 1/28/2008 1:21:20 PM , Rating: 3
When Walmart says it's supporting Blu-Ray only, then it's over. I personally hate Sony, but I have to give them credit here, using their video game devision to help them win the format war was a stroke of genius, despite the fact that they could have probably won the console war had they not included it and made the damn thing so expensive. It seems obvious then that they care a lot more about winning the format than the console war, then again the format can last for 15 years while the consoles only last for 5.

In the end it equates to using children's gaming interests to create a large Blu-Ray install base which is obviously what they cared about most from the start. I'm starting to wonder if they were trying to build a game system with Blu-Ray ability or a Blu-Ray player with gaming ability.


RE: Misleading title
By AlphaVirus on 1/28/2008 5:02:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When Walmart says it's supporting Blu-Ray only, then it's over.

I hate WalMart but I cant help but agree since everyone shops there it would ruin it for the HDDVD camp. I think for the sake of revenue, they are going to stay neutral. Most people that shop there barely know anything about quality anyways. =/

quote:
using their video game devision to help them win the format war was a stroke of genius,

I dont think that was their intention to use the PS3 as a format fighter rather than console fighter. It did however pan out very well for them, with the prices of PS3's dropping and the popularity growing it is a win-win situation for them.

quote:
In the end it equates to using children's gaming interests to create a large Blu-Ray install base

I dont mean to be rude but, uhm what?
I dont see how the PS3 was targetted towards kids considering its original $600 price tag.

It may have been because I was raised in a low-income family but I dont know too many kids who can pocket anything over $300.

quote:
I'm starting to wonder if they were trying to build a game system with Blu-Ray ability or a Blu-Ray player with gaming ability.

Both. They were trying to make it an equal playing field. A Blu player that can play games and a PS3 player that can play Blu.