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  (Source: FamilyEvents.com)

GM currently includes black boxes in all its light vehicle lineup. The boxes only collect data during crash or "near crash" conditions, but GM supports government legislation to mandate expansion of the devices' capabilities.  (Source: Airbag Crash)
Black boxes could help determine cause of crashes or hiccups

In a roundtable interview with reporters Monday  General Motors' new vice president for government relations, Robert E. Ferguson, stated that his company backed pending legislation that would mandate black boxes in cars.  

The need for black boxes is showcased by incidents like the case of a 2008 Toyota Prius in California that supposedly accelerated uncontrollably.  Analysis by government investigators showed that the pattern of brake wear did not match the consistent braking that the driver claimed.  However, without an explicit record of what happened, the truth can't be proven; in fact wild theories such as failure due to cosmic rays have even been floated.

An event data recorder (EDR) 
could help depending on its features, the capabilities of its readers, and the availability of its readers.  As it turns out, the second generation 2008 Prius does have an EDR, but officially it only records data such as vehicle speed in "crash" or "near crash" events.  It reportedly does not record vehicle speed or braking during normal operation unless explicitly programmed to do so for testing purposes.

GM first deployed EDRs in the 1990 model year and by 1995 they were standard in GM's light vehicles.  GM, like Toyota, offers a device that allows the limited reading of its vehicles' EDRs.  GM's EDRs don't necessarily offer much more information than Toyota's in their current form, but GM supports proposals to expand the information made available by the EDR.

Describes Ferguson, "[EDRs are] essential to ensure consumers are being properly protected in their vehicles.  There can be a discrepancy in what a driver claims happened and what NHTSA concludes happened. This would mandate equipment that would remove any human emotion or bias to provide much more precise data."

Members of Congress are currently working on legislation to mandate expanded EDR abilities and mandated inclusion in vehicles.  The legislation could air within a month.  Comments Ferguson, "The prospects that we end up with some additional safety legislation or regulation are very high."

Ferguson appeared to take a bit of a swipe at Toyota, saying "[If] a manufacturer takes a hide-the-ball, not transparent (approach), it's hard to design a system that gets around that."

However, he says that he meant no affront to Toyota, commenting that he has a "very positive" impression of Toyota vehicles and offering, "For the sake of the American driving public, I hope Toyota solves its safety issues quickly."

One issue that was not raised by Ferguson about EDRs, but is salient in the debate, is privacy.  If EDR capabilities are expanded, they could be used in traffic incidents to determine guilt.  They could even be used, in theory, even to remotely catch speeders and send them tickets.  Such issues would surely invite debate, but they may be ignored in the wake of the fallout from Toyota's safety issues.



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Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By CosmoJoe on 3/23/2010 8:37:04 AM , Rating: 4
"GM is One of the First Automakers to Publicly Support Mandatory Black Boxes".

It should be of no surprise to anyone that our Govt wants to extend its tentacles into more aspects of our private lives. I understand having a device to monitor crash conditions, but this opens the door to much, much more. This is also what happens the Govt starts nationalizing industries such as the car industry.

Also, take this a few steps beyond the car industry, to (for example) the Internet. How long before progressives start screaming about Internet access being a basic human right, and then having the Govt eventually offer broadband service. You think it sucks now dealing with Comcast or another ISP?




RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By rdhood on 3/23/2010 8:50:30 AM , Rating: 4
And people wonder what happens when you start down the Fascist path? Government controls car company... car company supports "black box" that keeps tabs on you. What do you think is going to happen now that this same government that wants to keep tabs on you via a black box has control of your health care?

The Nanny state is here for good, people. You voted it into office, and we all have to live with it.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By FITCamaro on 3/23/2010 10:26:58 AM , Rating: 5
Exactly. A government controlled car company is OK with government legislation mandating monitoring of citizens? Say it ain't so.

Next you're going to tell me something crazy like corn growers support ethanol mandates.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Suntan on 3/23/2010 1:31:13 PM , Rating: 2
GM doesn’t care about your privacy. By that I mean, they don’t care what you do. They don’t even care if you speed all the time. *All* they care about is having proof that it was not their car’s mechanical defect that caused any problems or accidents (and quite frankly I can’t blame them for wanting that.) After all, the union that *really* controls GM doesn't give too shites about the politicians' other pet projects, only the ones that center specifically on continually sweetening the pro-union handouts.

Don’t point the fear induced anger where it doesn’t belong (GM.) Point it where it does, namely at the politicians that would use this most recent panic about accelerator pedals as a means to better monitor your behaviors in other areas (speeding, etc.)

-Suntan


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Alexvrb on 3/23/2010 8:37:35 PM , Rating: 5
Ford, GM, and Chrysler all consider the data recorded by the EDR to be the property of the owner of the vehicle. It has been like this for years. Also the readers for Toyota EDRs are still basically non-existent outside of Toyota, I have no idea where the article got information saying otherwise. Toyota considers their current EDRs nothing but experimental and is only just now releasing early data retrieval tools for their EDRs (for technicians and police).

Anyway, EDRs need to get a lot fancier before they'll really be useful for accident reconstruction. I think this is a good step forward. They can store as much crash-related information as they want. Frankly, as long as they don't record warranty-voiding information like Nissan's boxes, I'm all for it.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By tastyratz on 3/25/2010 11:35:48 PM , Rating: 2
and its only a matter of time.
The problem is this box is GREAT in gray areas... but start getting scanned at traffic stops, insurance claims, inspections, warranty checks, and everywhere else - you will then no longer think its so great.

I would support it for the sake of car companies in instances like this, but I know better and don't trust my government farther than I can throw them. Proprietary and limited or not at all - legislation free.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By ClownPuncher on 3/23/2010 2:32:18 PM , Rating: 1
Fuck 'em, nobody wants a GM anymore anyway


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By JonnyDough on 3/24/2010 12:16:11 AM , Rating: 2
You were down rated one automatically for your use of the F word.

However, I won't be buying GM ever again. It's the principle of thing. There are always alternatives, and there won't be if we buy into this govt control crap. GM is trying to smear the top competitor and then paint themselves in a good picture. Sounds very much like a politician now doesn't it? Maybe GM is taking advice directly from the guy who won the last campaign...


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Samus on 3/24/2010 12:16:23 AM , Rating: 2
Personally I don't see what the problem is. I crashed one of my SVT Focus's awhile back and was giddy to download the RCM data. Amazingly I was going 50mph on impact when I thought I was going 30-ish, but thats based on the VSS which gets its feedback from axle rotation. Since the ABS was active the VSS may not have been getting an accurate reading.

Among other things in the RCM snapshot:

Driver/passenger seatbelt buckle (detected to fire pretensioners)
Accelerator/brake/clutch pedal position
Engine RPM
Engine Temperature
Ambient Temperature
Radio Volume (!)
Impact position (order of triggered sensors to deploy airbags)
Airbag deployment stage (there are two stages in my car)
Total engine runtime in hours from being started
A/C on or off
...

the list goes on and on I believe there are 159 fields of data.

Sounds like a black box to me. And personally, I can see this data being used for AND against me, but more than likely, to indicate the at-fault party in a collision. It also collected important feedback that could be used to improve the vehicle, which is why manufacturers are mostly for it.

Keep in mind, this RCM is from a 2002 Focus, or in other words, a car developed in the mid-90's and sold in the UK beginning in 1998.

12 years later, I'm sure the RCM's are substantially more advanced and can probably record reaction time, steering position, and perhaps history (like what happened 30-seconds before the crash)

ALL of this shit is important, and sure, it will in rare cases be used against us (like when we don't want to be guilty) but join the 21st century big brother is watching.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By BBeltrami on 3/23/2010 11:22:37 AM , Rating: 5
Hey! I didn't vote for it. :)

While I agree with your sentiments, I think GM is simply observing Toyota, and people's response to this recall situation. GM basically is acknowledging that we live in a litigious (bat shit crazy) society and they want to avoid going down that road at all costs.

But they're basically calling these Prius incidents fraud and the people involved liars. Regardless of the truth of the matter, it means they couldn't care less about my privacy, freedom, etc. and how it might be impacted by this. That's bad form and it gives a certain stink, given they're Government Motors.

Make this simple. Don't mandate the full-time monitor, but mandate the crash recorder. Then make the full-time monitor available as a no-cost option (at GM it could be an add-on to OnStar). If people want it they can get it. If not, they don't. Add a bit of functionality, then Parents can get them to monitor their teen drivers. The legal system can require them for parolees and multiple DUI offenders, for example.

Meanwhile the rest of us go about our business.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Ammohunt on 3/23/2010 1:46:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The Nanny state is here for good, people. You voted it into office, and we all have to live with it.


Good thing our founders didn't take that attitude before the Revolutionary war. The cost of Liberty is not a once time fee....


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By cruisin3style on 3/23/2010 4:13:21 PM , Rating: 1
Theres some basic information I would want to know about this before I started getting "i experimented with too many drugs"-paranoid.

What exactly do these devices monitor?

When are these devices monitored? When crazy things happen like runaway priuses, or ordinary things like when you get in a fenderbender?

Who reads the devices, and how often? Mechanic? Police officers? Dealership? Car company? Government agency?

Because right now, with as little information as we have, you and other people's comments sound similar to if we (earth) came into contact with aliens in a benign/peaceful fashion, you would be saying the aliens were planning to shoot our faces off so we needed to get them first. But then, if it was proven Dick Cheney was one of them...


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By cruisin3style on 3/23/2010 4:18:34 PM , Rating: 2
Again I ask how it is that I am rated down before my own page is finished loading after posting? It doesn't seem possible anyone could have even noticed my comment so quickly. They would have to have loaded their page at the same time as myself, and read even a portion of my comment, in order to rate me down. I salute you, dailytech rate-down script.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By BBeltrami on 3/23/2010 5:15:31 PM , Rating: 3
"i experimented with too many drugs"-paranoid.

You said it.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By rdhood on 3/23/2010 8:52:33 AM , Rating: 1
And you can replace "US Govt" with "Obama Administration"


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By MrBlastman on 3/23/10, Rating: 0
RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By shin0bi272 on 3/23/10, Rating: 0
RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By goz314 on 3/23/10, Rating: 0
RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Reclaimer77 on 3/23/10, Rating: -1
RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By goz314 on 3/23/2010 9:25:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Open your fucking eyes and take a look around, jackass.


You know, that comment really wasn't very nice nor was it called for.

Are you really a decent, hard-working American? If so, then you should be able to afford health insurance like the other 86% of us who can already do so. If you can afford it but you just don't want to buy it then you can by definition afford the measly $600 additional tax excised on you for sake of your choice not to purchase private health insurance. If you can't afford insurance to begin with, then you would probably qualify for Medicaid and wouldn't be assessed any fine at all.

As a decent hard-working american myself, I'm tired of having to pay for people who don't have insurance when they end up in the hospital for one reason or another and they can't pay for their bills. It's one thing for people who can't honestly afford it, but it's an entirely different story for the jackass that can afford it, but doesn't and then turns around and expects the rest of us to foot his bills when they become too overwhelming.

As far as your whole "throwing people in jail" comment is concerned, go fish. Tax evasion and it's penalties are reserved for people who think the rules apply to everyone else but themselves. If you don't pay your taxes, you will be fined eventually. If you have a really big tax and you choose not to pay it, then the penalty might include jail time.

I'm sick and tired of people who think that living in this country should be magically free. It's not. People have to pay for the privilege to live and participate in a system that affords them more liberties and personal protections than virtually any other country on earth. The simple notions of being able to start a business, charge for goods and services, earn wages and own property are afforded to us and supported by our system.

It costs money to establish justice. It costs money to insure domestic tranquility. It costs money to provide for the common defense. And yes, it costs money to promote the general Welfare. If you don't understand that notion and you believe that it's OK for everyone else to support the system except yourself, then you probably should indeed check out of society and join a cult somewhere.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Reclaimer77 on 3/23/10, Rating: -1
RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By FITCamaro on 3/23/2010 10:51:48 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Tax evasion and it's penalties are reserved for people who think the rules apply to everyone else but themselves.


You mean like Tim Geitner? Maybe Tom Daschle? Perhaps Nancy Killefer?

And don't even try to say that "promote the general welfare" meant redistribute wealth. Madison was quite clear on that in the Federalist papers that is not what they meant.

And its not like care will be f*cking free now. Health insurance pays a portion of costs. Assuming the service is even covered at all. If you fail to pay your portion, we're still all paying for it. And with the planned cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, they'll be practically worthless with an estimated 45% of doctors to stop taking them (by liberal groups). Having health insurance does not mean anything and everything under the sun is covered.

This attitude that being given health insurance off the backs of people who already had it or potentially could afford it but didn't want it is no different than when that dumb b*tch expected all her bills to be paid for her because Obama won the election.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 11:07:18 PM , Rating: 1
FIT: don't waste your time with this little tool. After all, we're just "whiners" according to him and the "world is not coming to an end" according to him as we see more and more of our freedoms and more and more federal government control taking over America. Just sit back and relax dude - we're all in the same boat! Either that tool is the biggest pu$$y ever or a closet liberal with not enough guts to admit that which he is and supports. I wonder which....


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Machinegear on 3/23/2010 8:54:49 AM , Rating: 5
Next we'll hear that Government Motors supports a requirement that every driver buy health care before being allowed to purchase a car.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By R3T4rd on 3/23/2010 9:38:52 AM , Rating: 3
I wouldn't doubt it if this is hidden in the current bill that last I heard, was going to pass this past weekend or not pass this past weekend. I'll have to catch up on the news...been too busy fixing yellow MAC's.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By MrBlastman on 3/23/2010 1:31:58 PM , Rating: 5
Oh, you didn't hear? We can't even pick our noses anymore with the new healthcare plan.

Section 3508, subparagraph 6, line 7:

"Under no circumstances are citizens permitted to pick their noses. Doing so is a federal crime and misplacement of boogers is punishable as a felony under Federal property defacement laws. Anyone caught picking their nose will be subjected to fines, penalties and incarceration. Those wishing _to_ pick their noses must first purchase healthcare™ wipes and a healthcare™ disposal bag to place said wipes after use (proper wiping is the only permitted course of action.

All potential wipers must attend a mandated healthcare™ course on hygine at a healthcare™ center) and these bags must be disposed of in a healthcare™ recepticle. All boogers will be metered, weighed and a bill will be sent to your household at the end of the month and you will be assessed a fee for said boogers not to approach, nor exceed potential fines for refusing to obey said regulations."

So you see, it is IN THERE somewhere, you just can't find it, but I guarantee you, CHANGE is coming.

:-|


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By amanojaku on 3/23/2010 9:10:47 AM , Rating: 3
This has nothing to do with the current administration. Many cars already have a black box: it's called the Event Data Recorder, and the NHTSA has recommended its use since the 90's. GM is in agreement with current legislation to make black boxes mandatory because it has voluntarily included EDRs in many of its cars for over 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_Data_Recorder
http://www.gm.com/corporate/responsibility/safety/...
http://www.me.vt.edu/gabler/publications/sae-2004-...
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NRD...
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv21/09-0452...


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By knutjb on 3/23/2010 9:20:33 AM , Rating: 3
EDRs only store data from a few moments prior to the airbags going off in most cars. They do not keep a long history. Some makers might add more but that costs more money.

It just looks a bit disturbing when government owned motors is first to jump on the bandwagon. It might be a coincidence but it does have the appearance of conflict of interest. That appearance is not good. If other makers had jumped on first that conflict of interest would not have become an issue.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By FITCamaro on 3/23/2010 10:42:41 AM , Rating: 5
I don't have a problem with a box that stores crash data. I have a problem with a box that records my entire driving history for purposes of government monitoring.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By amanojaku on 3/23/2010 11:05:12 AM , Rating: 5
I agree with your concern, but I have found no evidence of such recording capability existing or being proposed. Can you show me a link that indicates the government's intention to track drivers? If you can I'll go to Washington myself and piss on the legislators.

It seems like a lot of people are concerned about privacy, but let's look at the facts:

1) EDRs so far require a wired connection
2) EDRs so far do not include wireless connectivity, except for Onstar which requires a subscription, i.e. you are willing paying for such monitoring
3) EDR data can only be obtained with the consent of the vehicle owner, or as required by law
4) The NHTSA made EDRs mandatory for 2012 and beyond back in 2006
5) You can access your EDR if you want to see what's in it

The EDR is not like an airplane's black box; it does not record your travel history permanently. All data is flushed out over time by design so that only the most recent crash info is saved. All you have to do to "erase" the EDR is drive it again.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By alifbaa on 3/23/2010 11:27:01 AM , Rating: 5
The "as required by law" part is what scares me.

When aircraft got black boxes, the FAA promised up and down that they would not be used against pilots for disciplinary purposes. Instead, the information on them could only be used for improving safety practices on an anonymous basis. In fact, it was "illegal" for them to access the information for any other purpose.

Sure enough, a few egregious accidents later the public outcry was loud enough for the laws and regulations to change. Today those same black boxes are routinely used for disciplinary purposes.

What exactly makes you think the government will exercise restraint the next time a reckless driver kills a family and the only evidence of his crime is on that box?


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 1:19:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When aircraft got black boxes, the FAA promised up and down that they would not be used against pilots for disciplinary purposes...Today those same black boxes are routinely used for disciplinary purposes.


You sure you aren't confusing black boxes with cockpit voice recorders (CVRs)? If a pilot takes off with the incorrect flap settings according to flight control data recorded on the black box, I sure as hell want him/her disciplined (if they survive) and I want to know the root cause of the crash - was it mechanical failure or pilot error?

Same goes for CVRs. There was a lot of howling over how that trampled privacy rights, yet it recorded unnecessary cockpit chatter which led to crashes due to improper flap/slat settings on takeoffs. That led to new training and regulations for a "sterile" cockpit during all phases of flight. So as far as I'm concerned, both of those are necessary - the amount of lives that are at stake warrants it.

Back to a black box for a car, I would not put it past these fascist Nannystatists to mandate those on new cars some time in the future and possibly be used to cap & tax miles and parlay fines to speeders. After all, the way our current crop of "leaders" in Washington are spending money we don't have, they'll have to be very resourceful and sly on getting new revenue from we the dumbmAsses who apparently in their minds aren't smart enough to wipe our own backsides without government "help."


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By shin0bi272 on 3/23/2010 12:12:45 PM , Rating: 4
You need to look at your point #1... how long before they become wireless and satellite linked? Onstar ring a bell anyone? Onstar can cut the power to your vehicle, flash your lights, unlock your doors and call you with its "automatic crash response" ... gee that sounds awfully similar to what this article is talking about doesnt it now?


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 1:24:09 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I agree with your concern, but I have found no evidence of such recording capability existing or being proposed. Can you show me a link that indicates the government's intention to track drivers? If you can I'll go to Washington myself and piss on the legislators.


If someone told me two years ago that we would be at a point today where the government just passed a MANDATORY government health care insurance plan that we all MUST purchase or get fined and/or go to jail, I'd have pissed on their foot.

Do not ever, EVER underestimate the power and tentacles of the federal government. Especially the way it's being run these days stripping more and more power from the States and the people.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By goz314 on 3/23/10, Rating: -1
RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 5:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
Ya know what's really pathetic about the whole thing? The heroes on the left running around in damage control trying to sell this steaming pile of FAR reaching left wing $#@! to those who said HELL NO.

But yeah, I guess you didn't have much of a retort to my comments. That's what I thought.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By goz314 on 3/23/2010 7:56:13 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, what's really pathetic is that the discussion and comments following this article have so quickly been focused on healthcare reform. Need I remind you that this article is about is black boxes in vehicles?

So, tell me again how your comments are not tantamount to just finding a semi-public forum to whine about current affairs that only have a loose association at best with the article topic?

I think everybody gets the fact that you are pissed off. I am too about what's going on in the country, but I also hate whiners.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 8:12:11 PM , Rating: 2
1) Define "whining."

2) This article is about the federal GOVERNMENT. Anything is fair game with regards to government control and access. You can bet your sweet a-s-s it is relevant. It is just as relevant as everything else the government these days - this one run by apparent radical left wing fascists at the moment.

Now I will repeat - exactly what part of this quote from the article do you not understand?

"Members of Congress are currently working on legislation to mandate expanded EDR abilities and mandated inclusion in vehicles."

And no, I'm not pissed off nor whining. I'm mad as hell and along with over half this nation will do something about it this November and in 2012.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By goz314 on 3/23/2010 8:43:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can bet your sweet a-s-s it is relevant


Sorry, but I don't swing that way. Oh, and... I don't like whiners. You asked for it, so here it is. You could have just looked it up yourself, but I will save you the trouble.

v. whined, whin·ing, whines
v.intr.
1. To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3. To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch.

I think a cross between #1 and #2 are the most apropos to the current dialog. I suppose #3 might fit as well, but that is generally reserved for describing the actions of machinery.

A bit silly? Perhaps. But no amount of complaining is going to change the fact that you apparently didn't get what you wanted and now you want to repeatedly let everyone know about it. It will be OK. I promise. The world is not ending.

You might be "mad as hell" about having such a device in your car, or about having to pay a fine for not having your seat belt buckled when you are pulled over, or for having to actually follow the posted speed limit in a school zone, or for paying property taxes to pay for the roads and services that you use every single day, but guess what?

We're all in the same boat, buddy. Either deal with it, or not.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 10:59:41 PM , Rating: 3
Well you can be the little pu$$y that sits back and pouts when pushed too far. I'm going to be the big bully and FIGHT BACK with all means necessary.

And for the record, all I wanted was for the GOVERNMENT to stay the hell out of MY PRIVATE LIFE. I don't get you, bub. Paying a fine for a seatbelt violation or speed limit infraction or property taxes is the same as being FORCED to buy into a GOVERNMENT OWNED HEALTH CARE PLAN?

You perhaps are the biggest small mind I think I've ever encountered here on DT. Congratulations.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 11:14:33 PM , Rating: 2
Oh and another thing: you failed to show where my comments were "whining." Perhaps you are just of the ilk who reads something you don't like to read and disagree with and just mindlessly call it "whining" there? Well, if so, I'll have to give you kudos: at least you didn't call me a racist.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By superkdogg on 3/24/2010 1:21:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm mad as hell and along with over half this nation will do something about it this November and in 2012.


Oh, so you'll be staying home then?


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 11:08:21 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Also, take this a few steps beyond the car industry, to (for example) the Internet. How long before progressives start screaming about Internet access being a basic human right, and then having the Govt eventually offer broadband service. You think it sucks now dealing with Comcast or another ISP?


Well that's the liberal "regressives" for you. They would rather sink a ship filled with 5,000 people to the level of 10 people in a dingy so that everyone would be on equal waters, so to speak, even if that meant the majority would suffer (in this case 84% of Americans have a health care plan an 16% do not).

Next up in government control over your private life and freedom of choice: the takeover of life insurance, car insurance, homeowner/renter insurance, pensions, 401Ks, and eventually the entirety of freaking Wall Street. The current leadership in Washington from 1600 Pennsylvania to both chambers of Congress despises economic liberty and freedom to succeed; what it loves is extending powers into private lives for control.

I find it amusing that we keep finding Easter Eggs in ObamaCare - like hiring tens of thousands of IRS agents to keep tabs on everyone ensuring they PAY UP for ObamaCare. Our taxes will skyrocket and our quality of care will plummet. And the irony here is that most who voted for these fascists blamed the previous administration of being King George III all over again and trampling the Constitution. Oh the bitter irony.


RE: Replace "GM" with "US Govt".
By MartyLK on 3/23/2010 2:51:42 PM , Rating: 2
GM has had "Black boxes" in their vehicles for many years. Ever since they stated putting CPUs into cars, the CPUs record a lot more than what the customer knows. There is the service and maintenance side of the CPU system and the secret "Black box" side of it.

I saw it one. I couldn't believe the amount of data it recorded. But it kept track of speed, mileage, and all perimeters of the system. If a fault occurred, GM could look at this secret part of the CPU and determine if abuse was taking place. It recorded rates of acceleration, braking and a lot of other stuff.

With cars now having GPS, I'm sure it records location.


the biggest use i see for this is
By ashford on 3/23/2010 8:06:17 AM , Rating: 2
sir can you tell me how fast you were going?




RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By nvalhalla on 3/23/10, Rating: 0
RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By vapore0n on 3/23/2010 8:34:57 AM , Rating: 4
I though we had traded all our privacy for security already.

So one case of a guy that wants to scam Toyota and now we need mandated black boxes on all cars. :rolleyes:


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By Bioniccrackmonk on 3/23/10, Rating: 0
By Bioniccrackmonk on 3/23/2010 8:47:03 AM , Rating: 1
Meant to copy his whole post, not just the second sentence.


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By vapore0n on 3/23/2010 8:52:09 AM , Rating: 4
You know, it wouldnt take much for an insurance company to use the black box information against you.


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By Bioniccrackmonk on 3/23/2010 1:55:43 PM , Rating: 1
Let them, I have a flawless driving record over the last 12 years, NO TICKETS AND NO ACCIDENTS. And yet, I can't get a discount on my insurance because the area I live in is prone to accidents because idiotic drivers that drag race from red light to red light and weave through traffic all in the effort to save a few lousy minutes. If these boxes could store more info like acceleration and braking trends to determine who the riskiest drivers are I am all for it. Maybe their premiums can go up accordingly and/or even revoke their license until they prove they can drive intelligently.

Lots of people are also screaming PRIVACY over this, you know what though, driving is a PRIVILEGE not a constitutional right. Unlike the home which you own, you are driving on government property every time you pull out onto a main road or highway.

This is a perfect situation where the people who have reasons to hide something are complaining. With the amount of traffic cams going up at intersections, pretty soon these would be obsolete anyway unless you were in a small town or driving between cities on the interstate.


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By Kenenniah on 3/24/2010 8:46:34 AM , Rating: 2
What if the "black box" gets used against you in an accident, and the black box is wrong? A software glitch causes it to record something incorrectly? What if the pedal sensor messes up, and detects the driver pushing down on the pedal when they aren't.....what would the black box say?

My point is there are easily imaginable instances where the recordings might not match reality. All the box knows is what the computer tells it. Sensors can fail and give incorrect readings. The computer can glitch and send inccorect information. I'm not opposed to the boxes themselves, but am apprehensive that the courts and authorities might end up taking them as gospel.


By Bioniccrackmonk on 3/24/2010 9:29:14 PM , Rating: 2
The black box is NOT end all be all, merely a source of additional information that can be gathered in an event which may warrant it. The forensics around automobile crashes still have a tried and true method of investigation.


By hunterzach02 on 3/23/2010 8:46:58 AM , Rating: 2
They already track this in semis. The average and greatest speed are stored in the ecm. The speed calculations even take in tire wear to get a more accurate figure. At least this is how it was 4 years ago.


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By Amiga500 on 3/23/2010 8:57:05 AM , Rating: 4
I think you mean: "Sir, you don't have to tell me how fast you were going... I can see it on my computer screen 300 miles away. Your ticket is already in the post sir."


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By Bioniccrackmonk on 3/23/2010 1:58:47 PM , Rating: 1
If you weren't speeding you wouldn't have an issue.


By ClownPuncher on 3/23/2010 2:27:55 PM , Rating: 2
Lets make the world a slightly safer place by punishing everyone!


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 3:03:56 PM , Rating: 2
Speed limits are set artificially low, and in many cases in municipalities, extremely low on purpose for revenue generation.


By superkdogg on 3/24/2010 1:19:46 PM , Rating: 2
BS flag

I am an alderman in my city and the revenue to be gained is very small. Secondly, any revenue that IS recouped is basically a direct charge to an offender that offsets a charge to the public at-large for their protection. You have a problem with that?


By MarcLeFou on 3/23/2010 9:25:45 AM , Rating: 2
The onboard computer already records data as to your speed. For example, the computer will know exactly at what speed and RPM you were when your check engine light came on.


By RabidDog on 3/23/2010 9:46:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
sir can you tell me how fast you were going?


...I don't know, 180-190, I guess...


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By Reclaimer77 on 3/23/2010 10:37:46 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah who would have thought, Government Motors want's to put a black box in your car. Shocking right ?


RE: the biggest use i see for this is
By ClownPuncher on 3/23/2010 2:28:41 PM , Rating: 2
Racists, why couldn't it have been a white box? Red?


By Nfarce on 3/23/2010 3:06:43 PM , Rating: 2
Because if it was a white box others would be screaming about being discriminated against.

Oh, and in an airliner it's really an orange box, not to be confused with the one from Half Life. :p


By ZachDontScare on 3/23/2010 2:39:51 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
sir can you tell me how fast you were going?

No I can not, sir... *hiccup*.. the speedometer tops out at 120 *hic*


If this comes to pass
By Shadowself on 3/23/2010 8:38:34 AM , Rating: 1
I'll be keeping my 23 year old car (I'm the original owner) for a much, much longer time!

If I had one of these in my car, and I was hit in an accident then the data in the box is turned over to the police to prove my case, could they then use the data to issue me a ticket for every time I exceeded the speed limit? If the data is detailed enough could they correlate it with other traffic records and try to ticket me for slowing to 2-3 MPH and not fully stopping at stop signs at 3 AM when no one is around? They would have the data to do so, could they? Would they?




RE: If this comes to pass
By orgy08 on 3/23/2010 9:07:30 AM , Rating: 2
They can't issue a speeding ticket because they don't know the speed limit in the zone you were driving in.


RE: If this comes to pass
By R3T4rd on 3/23/2010 9:30:07 AM , Rating: 2
Who's to say once this gets afoot, that the Gov't won't enable or put GPS capabilities in the balck box too?


RE: If this comes to pass
By GaryJohnson on 3/23/2010 9:56:36 AM , Rating: 3
Who's to say? We are. We vote these schmucks into office, and they won't do something that damages their chances of re-election. If enough people are opposed to it they won't do it.

If they want to put a GPS unit in your car and could do so without any kind of public support for it as you suggest, then why haven't they already done so?


RE: If this comes to pass
By RU482 on 3/23/2010 10:04:33 AM , Rating: 4
hahaha...fool, you think the people have the power


RE: If this comes to pass
By keith524 on 3/23/2010 10:25:51 AM , Rating: 2
yeah cause that worked with this health care crap....


RE: If this comes to pass
By Reclaimer77 on 3/23/10, Rating: -1
RE: If this comes to pass
By nafhan on 3/23/2010 9:20:43 AM , Rating: 2
It would probably only record the last 15 minutes or so, and it would only be recording what's going on with the car's systems. Recording everything you've ever done in your car and tying all that in with data from a camera and GPS would be quite a bit more expensive...


RE: If this comes to pass
By MrPeabody on 3/23/2010 11:10:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Recording everything you've ever done in your car and tying all that in with data from a camera and GPS would be quite a bit more expensive...


Exactly! And since government entities tend to demand fiscal responsibility, we probably have nothing to worry about.

Probably.


RE: If this comes to pass
By Bioniccrackmonk on 3/23/10, Rating: 0
OMG
By bradmshannon on 3/23/2010 8:28:39 AM , Rating: 2
That's so racist. Why not just call it a safety box? :p




RE: OMG
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/23/2010 8:30:27 AM , Rating: 2
I prefer "lock box" ;-)


RE: OMG
By amanojaku on 3/23/2010 8:50:52 AM , Rating: 3
If boxes were safe we wouldn't need prophylactics!


RE: OMG
By Gul Westfale on 3/23/2010 8:55:28 AM , Rating: 1
african american box of an indeterminate gender?


RE: OMG
By nafhan on 3/23/2010 9:14:12 AM , Rating: 5
The word "box" is somewhat gender insensitive. How about: achromatic cuboid?


You have no rights on the road...
By eek2121 on 3/23/2010 11:10:42 AM , Rating: 1
When you are driving a high speed weapon, you have no rights. I'm a firm believer that ALL cars should store driving history for the last 2-3 hours. I also believe that this black box should be able to read traffic signals as well as the positions of other nearby cars (maybe via wifi or something). In the event of a car accident or moving violation, this would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt who was responsible. In addition, it can protect you as well. Wrongful prosecution (speeding, seatbelts, etc.) would go away.
The black box could still only be read by a special device, and could not be read wirelessly.

While you may think it's okay to drive crazy, it's NOT. It is not your road, you have no rights. Driving is a privilege.

Disclaimer: I've been in an accident. I once had someone hit me from behind, it spun my car around in a 360. They tried to claim i attempted to merge into them. There just happened to be a camera pointed at that particular spot. This showed exactly what happened.




By Chocobollz on 3/23/2010 11:34:14 AM , Rating: 1
I fully agree. And for those who hit you from behind, I'd say fuk 'em, they're cowards and deserves hard punishment for their mistake.


By mgilbert on 3/23/2010 11:34:38 AM , Rating: 2
Are you prepared for your black box to be checked monthly, with a resulting monthly bill for traffic violations??? And if you don't think that will happen, you're a naive fool.


RE: You have no rights on the road...
By Reclaimer77 on 3/23/2010 11:40:53 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
When you are driving a high speed weapon, you have no rights.


That is moronic. Look I'm sorry you got in a wreck and were wronged, but it's clearly causing you to project onto everyone.

Your rights are not abdicated just because you happen to be speeding. Sorry, this country doesn't work that way.


By Bioniccrackmonk on 3/23/2010 2:12:27 PM , Rating: 1
I don't agree with the sentence you quoted, but driving is a privilege, not a constitutional right. If this device could be used to get the idiots off the road an dmake them safer, I am all for this.


RE: You have no rights on the road...
By mikevictor on 3/23/2010 2:51:51 PM , Rating: 2
I disagree.

We call them "accidents." Purposefully driving into other people or their property is illegal, and rightly so, but do we need a gizmo to find fault in an accident? That contradicts the meaning of accident: without intent, there is no fault. The EDR hasn't got a motive detector built into it, has it? Or perhaps there are no accidents. Given a sufficiently sophisticated EDR, blame can be assigned for braking too late, or insufficient steering input, or failure to use turn signals. Blame pilot error, just like the airlines. Then revoke licenses.

Mercedes has a car with a bad driving recognition program built into it. Such a system could be mandated, and expanded upon.

Driving "aggressively," in and of itself, is a victimless crime, as is driving "badly," as is driving "under the influence." These states increase accident risk. Driving, in and of itself, increases accident risk. That's what insurance is for.

A car is not a weapon; it is a car. The same can be said of sticks, stones, knives, and steel folding chairs, and anything else that can be misused to cause harm to another person. Using a tool, or even bare fists, to intentionally cause injury to another person is a crime, and rightfully so. To say, "When you're swinging a high speed golf club, you have no rights." shows a lack of insight. 'Cause it aint my golf course?

Disclaimer: My car has been bumped in parking lots 5 times. Usually, failure to check the rearview mirror caused the accident. Sometimes misjudging turning radius was the problem. It's just paint on metal, and that's what insurance is for.


By dardas on 3/23/2010 6:45:11 PM , Rating: 2
Give me a break.
There's something called "Reckless Endangerment".
Just because you have no motive, doesn't mean you can't kill people.
Guess what, If you walk on the street swinging a golf club and accidentally kill an old lady, you still KILLED A PERSON. even if you'll get a smaller sentence, you are CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE.

"That's what's insurance is for"?
SERIOUSLY??
you mentioned DUI. according to the CDC :
"In 2008, 11,773 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (32%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States"

http://www.cdc.gov/MotorVehicleSafety/Impaired_Dri...

"and nearly 5 million people sustain injuries that require an emergency department visit"

but i'm sure none of them had any trouble with getting health insurance. i mean, what are the odds that one of them might have had a pre-existing condition like Asthma/Cancer/CF/Diabetes/AIDS/Coronary Heart Disease/ALS/etc. etc.

i mean, hell, it's just 5 MILLION people, annually.

and of course the 11K casualties' families are really indifferent to their death since that's what insurance is for!


Useful, but privacy concerns remain
By PokerGuy on 3/23/2010 8:14:32 AM , Rating: 2
The black boxes seem like a really good and potentially very useful tool, but the privacy implications need to be examined and taken into account. If the EDR saves a lot of data, it would be trivial to track exactly where the vehicle has gone, at what speed and everything the driver did. You could see this coming up in a million types of lawsuits, divorce proceedings etc.




By Iridium130m on 3/23/2010 9:13:47 AM , Rating: 2
unfortunately with cameras on almost every city street corner and cell phone cameras and recorders abound, the expectation of privacy already has case law against it when out in public (I'm thinking of a you tube case where some guy sued because he was recorded doing something embarrassing, and when he fought to get it taken down, he lost because of this mentality). I would think this logic could be extended to the black boxes as well.


By knutjb on 3/23/2010 9:33:02 AM , Rating: 2
How many cars have GPS? Many times those options are built-in (the costs are minor because it's cheaper to build a million identical boxes than 200K of this and 300k of that etc...) and just need some minor hardware to be activated at the user interface i.e. a cable.

Currently to extract that data requires and accident or a warrant but with the recent transgressions of the Constitution why would anyone think the government would stop? After all its for the public safety...

I can leave my cellphone, or turn it off and remove the battery but I can't control the box in my car. Without built in protections in the laws it is a potentially serious invasion of privacy.

Bow to the mighty Big Brother...


Who will have access to this information?
By 91TTZ on 3/23/2010 9:37:30 AM , Rating: 2
If the information was open for all parties to use in a dispute then I could see how it would be an unbiased source of information.

But what happens when the laws are written so that the information is the sole property of the government and only they can use it at their discretion? You'd get situations where the government can use your car's own data against you when it's beneficial to them and they can deny the release of the information to use against them.




RE: Who will have access to this information?
By tng on 3/23/2010 10:35:50 AM , Rating: 2
Does this come as a suprise from a company that has the "Onstar" system?

This could be used in combonation with that system to remotely download data and yes keep track of your every movement.

Can you imagine that it will be very long before they determine taxes in this way? Check how much you have driven, where you have driven and send you a tax bill. By the way, this type of sysem has just went in somewhere in Europe. The potential for goverment abuse of this system is enormous.


By alifbaa on 3/23/2010 11:35:35 AM , Rating: 2
California is already tracking miles driven per year through your vehicle registration forms. They don't tax based on the information, but there was a DT article a few months ago about a proposal to do so.

Insurance companies would also LOVE to verify/monitor your every driving habit and charge you accordingly.

If you think the government will magically stop itself from taxing you, watching you or allowing your insurance company to make accessing your data a mandatory "voluntary" requirement, you are wrong. Plain and simple... you are wrong.


Shocked!
By Daeros on 3/23/2010 9:07:45 AM , Rating: 3
Really, the government-owned company is rushing to support the new-and-intrusive government plan to force you to provide evidence against yourself? How surprising! I'm sure being owned by the government has no influence on that decision at all!




By philmax on 3/23/2010 10:40:40 AM , Rating: 2
I would welcome this, as then the next time some idiot hits me and tries to give some bullsh!t story it doesn't fly. The government will not be reading these at will as the people won't go for it. Don't be such fear mongering puss!es all the time guys...wind it back every now and then.




Big Brother
By mgilbert on 3/23/2010 11:31:44 AM , Rating: 2
And if you think these devices won't be eventually checked regularly for traffic violations - speeding, etc. - you must be from another planet... And it won't matter which political party is in office...




Wow
By Brutus1234 on 3/23/2010 12:17:28 PM , Rating: 2
I come into these forums and read the comments.....

I get a vision that half the posters are wearing tin foil hats, in their bomb shelters, while having Glenn Beck in the background, and listening to Freebird by Lynyrd Skynyrd.

Lighten up people.

Every phone call, txt msg and internet site you visit is already tracked and logged. Even if half the crap here were true, it would be nothing compared to the monitoring you already have. If someone wanted to track you today, they could do it with your cell phone.

On the other hand though, maybe reason is the wrong approach...

Be Afraid... The Obama Youth is goose-stepping to your door. Don't sleep. Don't rest. Buy more guns and ammo... Stock up on duct tape, water... They're coming for you...




another reason to not pick GM
By rika13 on 3/23/2010 12:37:29 PM , Rating: 2
after being a company that failed because it refused to listen to customers (gas prices are high, the prius is selling like its made out of crack, lets sell gas-whoring SUV's because they are more profit per sale, even though nobody wants to buy them), took handouts from and gave control to the democrats, now ObamaStar!

ObamaStar: This is your big brother ObamaStar, we are watching over you. I see you started the engine before you buckled up. I am sending you a ticket for not wearing your safety belt in the mail and will be posting it in your comments on MyFace.

Owner a half hour later after MyFace informs him of the ticket: ObamaStar, some dude stole my car.

ObamaStar: Your engine has been deactivated, your vehicle is on I-69 awaiting recovery. I am sorry about the loss of life of the thief and the potential liability that has for you since he was killed in your vehicle when it was stopped in front of a tractor-trailer and crushed.

Owner: When is the next presidential election?

ObamaStar: I am sorry sir. That information is not available to successful people that can afford our inferior products, whom are predominately racist white people. It is an issue of National Security and therefore the not enslaved to social programs public at large does not have access to such information.




i'm going into business
By inperfectdarkness on 3/23/2010 12:45:29 PM , Rating: 2
i'm going to remove these things for a living. should be a millionaire by the time i'm 40.




Obama Motors
By btc909 on 3/23/2010 2:43:58 PM , Rating: 2
Who is stupid enough to buy a bailout car anyways? Ford is the only American car manufacture i'd consider. Chrysler / Dodge the only thing left will be the "RAM Brand". These boxes should have been installed YEARS ago, oooooo lets add all of these computers into vehicles & have no way of pulling a history to see what the electronic problem is. You do know how most car mechanics fix electronic problems? They swap out parts that relate to the problem the vehicle is having. This was an epic fail on my former 2004 PT Cruiser GT.




Privacy
By greylica on 3/23/2010 8:33:38 AM , Rating: 1
The EDR is a good thing, no matter what citizens can say about it, because it's not made to find people, it's different from devices like Cell Phones (found by triangulation). I guess the use of the technology have to be extended to be used like a simple tachograph.




"The whole principle [of censorship] is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak." -- Robert Heinlein














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