Print 52 comment(s) - last by Alexvrb.. on May 1 at 6:50 PM

When Saturn dies at the end of the year, a major part of GM's green offerings do as well

GM publicly states that its future is green vehicles, and is prominently featuring the Chevy Volt as its "vehicle of the future".  More so than any other automaker, GM has strove for a green image.  President Obama has praised such efforts, calling on all the domestic automakers to produce more green vehicles.

However, in an ironic twist, GM's own efforts to survive may result in massive cuts to its hybrid efforts -- cuts which may go unnoticed by the public as GM insists that it will be as green as ever.  As part of its survival plan, GM plans to cut the Saturn brand by the end of 2009.  Not only had Saturn seen a resurgence in interest and popularity in recent years, but it was also composed an integral part of GM's hybrid efforts.

The Chevy brand led total GM's hybrid sales with 5,838 units sold in 2008, but Saturn was a close second, thanks to mild hybrid versions of the Saturn Vue crossover and Aura sedan.  In total it sold 3,205 Saturn hybrids in 2008, with another 2,411 spread across the other brands (the hybrid Cadillac Escalade and GMC Yukon).

Aside from image, one dilemma is the question of technology.  Most of Saturn's hybrid technology is based on common cross-brand efforts, but there is still a significant amount of custom engineering, both in test data and design.  The easy solution would be to save the technology from Saturn -- thousands of hours of engineering effort and vast stores of test information -- to redeploy and reuse under the surviving brands.  However, that's not what GM is doing, according to sources.  A prominent source within the company states, "There will be no technology transfer from Saturn.  There is a lot of doubt internally as to what comes to production. Everything is in the air. Everything goes through the government."

Mark LaNeve, GM’s North American sales chief, however denies that it’s a done deal, insisting that the technology might still be saved.  He states, "Any of the four core brands could get our technology.  There’s not a hybrid in Saturn that is exclusive to Saturn. Nothing changes there, unless someone who buys Saturn says we want us to continue building hybrids for this brand and we agree to do it."

He declined, though to comment on whether Saturn-specific hybrid design or test data would be transferred.

After the death of Saturn, GM will offer the Chevrolet Malibu mild hybrid, Two-Mode versions of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups, and three Two-Mode SUVs.  Current mild hybrid technology from GM delivers a slight boost to acceleration and a 20 percent fuel economy boost.  Two-Mode is a step up, providing the ability to drive the vehicle on electric power alone, and allowing a 30 percent gain in fuel economy.  The SUV-ready four-wheel-drive version of Two-Mode won't be ready until 2011, though.

While GM's green image may take a hit, analysts believe, though, that its CAFE-readiness (fuel standards) won't be badly impacted.  The main reason why is that GM will be phasing out the Pontiac and Hummer brands, the latter of which is known for poor fuel economy.

Some analysts like John O’Dell, an analyst at who tracks green cars, can't believe that GM would toss Saturn's technology.  They believe that GM will come around and redeploy the hybrid powertrains in other vehicles.

Some, like Dan Becker, director of the nonprofit Safe Climate Campaign in Washington, though, warn that if GM relies too much on the Chevy Volt while neglecting its hybrids, that it will fall behind its competitors and suffer in sales.  He says that GM must keep up with hybrid technology from Ford, Toyota, and Honda.

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How is Pontiacs fuel economy bad?
By FITCamaro on 4/29/2009 3:27:21 PM , Rating: 5
The G5 gets the same fuel economy as the Cobalt(24-25/31-34).
The Solstice gets very good fuel economy including the GXP.
The G6 gets near the same fuel economy as its competition.
The G8 gets pretty good fuel economy considering its a V8 RWD 4 door.

Other than the G8, I believe all its cars get at or near 30+ mpg highway. And again other than the G8, I believe all its cars get over 20 mpg city.

RE: How is Pontiacs fuel economy bad?
By Lord 666 on 4/29/2009 3:46:53 PM , Rating: 3
And the Euro spec Opel's Saturns are based on even get better, especially in diesel form.

Don't agree with them tossing Saturn, but Pontiac created the Aztec along with the name "Pontiac" being fuddy like Oldsmobile.

RE: How is Pontiacs fuel economy bad?
By Alexvrb on 4/30/2009 10:08:08 PM , Rating: 2
Actually those rebadged Opels (Saturn Astra) are inferior in fuel efficiency. The 1.8L (opel) Astra, for example, gets completely spanked by the 2.2L ("US spec" ecotec) Cobalt. The Sky/Solstice/Opel GT is actually built here.

Manual Trans:
Astra: 24/32 (5 speed)
Cobalt: 25/35 (5 speed)
Cobalt XFE: 25/37 (5 speed - probably gearing + PCM tune)
Aveo: 27/34 (5 speed)

Auto Trans:
Astra: 24/30 (4 speed)
Cobalt: 24/33 (4 speed)
Aveo: 25/34 (4 speed)

That is despite the fact that the Cobalt produces more power and is heavier. They should have imported Astras from Opel minus the drivetrain! Even the lowly budget Aveo produces better mileage.

I have to give credit to Opel for a lot of the things they've done, the Ecotec engine design being a big one, the collaboration with Cadillac on the HFV6, etc. But for example, we've taken the Ecotec engine design and improved it. Ours are more efficient, and notably in the case of the 2.0L turbo (LNF motor) produce more power.

RE: How is Pontiacs fuel economy bad?
By waffle911 on 5/1/2009 9:23:49 AM , Rating: 2
The Cobalt is, underneath it all, an Astra with a different interior and front and rear sheet metal. The main unitbody platform is more or less shared; the shape of the greenhouse and the doors reveals that they are essentially the same car (the doors are even more or less interchangeable). So, yeah, they did bring the Astra here with a different drivetrain, excluding the Cobalt SS, which I believe to be the same drivetrain as the Astra VXR from Vauxhall (the UK brand for Opels — all right-hand drive variants).

All in all, it's a shame they're cuting Pontiac and Saturn as I think they have some of GM's best cars — in particular, the Solstice/Sky (and the GXP/Redline variants), and the G8 which is a rebadged Holden Commodore from Australia. All are excellent cars and I will hate to see them go. Though, perhaps it's time for Chevy to kill the current Impala and replace it with a proper RWD performance sedan that the Police could actually use. And I think the Sky Redline in particular deserves a spot in the Chevy lineup, perhaps under the GT name it bears in Europe.

What GM should really do is kill off GMC, it's cannibalizing truck sales from Chevy; and only a handful of old geezers and grandmas who shouldn't still be driving drive Buicks nowadays.

By Alexvrb on 5/1/2009 6:50:48 PM , Rating: 2
A Cobalt is no more of an Astra, than an Ion is an Astra. They all share the Delta platform. That doesn't make them the same car, and the biggest difference is the drivetrain. We're talking mileage here - he claimed that the "euro spec" Saturn Astra (rebadged Opel Astra) got "even better" mileage. Sadly this is not true.

The Cobalt and Pontiac G5 use a different "US spec" drivetrain. They get better mileage and produce more power than the Belgium-imported Astra, despite being heavier. Also, not to cut you down or anything, but for the record, you're wrong about the Cobalt SS engine. The Cobalt SS, HHR SS, Solstice GXP, Sky Red Line, and Opel GT all use the LNF - a domestic take on the 2.0L Turbo ecotec.

You might say "Aha! You said the Opel GT uses it!". But sadly, the Opel GT is actually a US export - the Opel GT is a rebadged Solstice/Sky built in the USA, not the other way around. In fact all modern Opel GTs are built in Delaware, right alongside their brothers, heck I think they're all left hand drive, too! But naturally, they recieve the superior US engine. I believe the 2.0L LNF we export produces more power than any of the other 2.0L turbo ecotecs, and it even makes as much power as the 2.8L V6 Turbo used by Opel and Saab.

The good news is that because the Opel GT, Sky, Solstice, and even the Daewoo G2X are all built in Wilmington, Delaware, the car may yet live on in the US. If you're still building them for Europe and Korea, why not make them for the US market? Chevy's lineup is kind of crowded, and it's not fancy enough for Cadillac. People always complain Buicks put them to sleep - so why not change their minds? Make a hot Sky-esque Buick roadster, turbo model only!

RE: How is Pontiacs fuel economy bad?
By s12033722 on 4/29/2009 3:59:14 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly. I was a little surprised when I saw the "notorious for poor fuel economy" label attached to Pontiac. Even their V8-equipped sports cars get better highway fuel economy than my Infinity G35x with a V6 does...

By Suntan on 4/29/2009 4:13:35 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly. I was a little surprised when I saw the "notorious for poor fuel economy" label attached to Pontiac.

You shouldn't be though. The only thing this guy likes more than writing suspect artilces in favor of all things green is writing one where he also gets to take a few pot shots at American companies...


By SublimeSimplicity on 4/29/2009 4:55:55 PM , Rating: 2
I'd like to play devil's advocate and say he wasn't talking about actual fuel economy, but the perception of poor fuel economy. GM identified this false perception and its why they ran they ran all of those "X models that get over 30mpg" commercials.

Like I said, I'd like to play devil's advocate... but when the author said it would help their CAFE situation (a quantitative measure, not perceived), it becomes obvious the author didn't do his research.

RE: How is Pontiacs fuel economy bad?
By yomamafor1 on 4/29/2009 6:37:11 PM , Rating: 1
That's because Pontiac in the 90s were notoriously fuel inefficient. I once drove a '92 Pontiac Grand AM a couple years back, and boy that thing practically inhale gas. I would drive approx. 30 miles, and half of the tank would be gone. All not to mention the electronics of the car was so messed up the fuel gauge would jump up even the car is running out of fuel.

Consumer images like this usually takes years and radical improvements to change them.

By DrKlahn on 4/30/2009 10:43:50 AM , Rating: 2
So you drove a 15 year old vehicle with a electronically controlled engine that is having electrical problems and conclude that the brand was horribly fuel inefficient. Bravo.

I had a 1996 Firebird with a 5.7L V8 and a 6spd. On strictly highway driving I was able to get 26-27mpg. Hardly horrible. My current commuter is a 1994 Bonneville. It has a lot of miles but I maintain it. It still manages to get 26-28 highway and about 18-20 in town.

Good job on forming an opinion on an entire brand of vehicles based on a 15 year old car with obvious issues. I know a person who traded in his 8 year old Corolla that burned oil and ran horribly. All Toyota from the early part of this decade must them burn oil and run poorly right?

By Alexvrb on 4/30/2009 10:13:13 PM , Rating: 2
All not to mention the electronics of the car was so messed up the fuel gauge would jump up even the car is running out of fuel
That a hilarious statement, considering the cause is likely just an ailing sending unit. Not at all uncommon, and hardly an "electronics ao messed up" scenario. A sending unit consists primarily of a glorified potentiometer. Heck, a little corrosion caused by condensation in the tank or sulfur from a couple of bad batches of fuel can screw up a sending unit.

I bet you get charged $5 for blinker fluid every time you get the oil changed, too.

RE: How is Pontiacs fuel economy bad?
By Brandon Hill on 4/29/2009 5:00:09 PM , Rating: 2
FIT, you're absolutely correct. The statement should have been applied ONLY to Hummer and has been fixed.

As for the G8, it's a shame to see it go :(

By FITCamaro on 4/29/2009 6:27:58 PM , Rating: 2
Pick up a G8 while you can. You should be able to talk a dealership down to $25,000 for a GT. People are managing to get GXPs for $31,000 or so. You just have to play hard ball.

By Alexvrb on 4/30/2009 10:36:09 PM , Rating: 2
Hey Brandon, a huge chunk of GM's green strategy has little to do with outdated Saturn hybrid technology. Even if they "abandoned Saturn technology", they still have all their bases covered. For one, GM's new E-REV (Volt) platform can be extended to somewhat larger cars and SUVs without too much trouble. Given that there's NO transmission and the engine isn't coupled to the wheels, there's not a whole ton of work that needs to be done to put it on a larger chassis.

For the largest vehicles (large SUVs, fullsize trucks) they've got their two-mode hybrid system, which works really well. However, those hybrid systems are very expensive. The 2-mode because its new, very complex, not really mass produced and designed to provide huge boosts to huge vehicles. The Volt because all the technology is extremely new and its not mass produced (yet), although the design in principle is relatively simple costs should drop as production ramps up and battery costs fall.

Then you've got the mild hybrids - inexpensive, simple, and somewhat effective. But don't forget one thing Brandon - their non-hybrids are among some of the most fuel efficient out there. Look at the upcoming 2010 Equinox. The new direct injected naturally aspirated Ecotec variant produces reasonable performance and exceptional mileage for a non-hybrid SUV. The 3.0L DI baby HFV6 produces surprising power and produces slightly better mileage compared to the old pushrod 3.4L. The DI variant of the HFV6 3.6L produces 300HP and still manages good mileage.

Their green efforts are across the board, and they lose virtually nothing with Saturn. Green aside, they do lose quite a bit with Pontiac. I am hopeful that they can bring the Pontiac brand back some day.

By The0ne on 4/29/2009 9:05:13 PM , Rating: 2
All those models have done well and here in San Diego they're quite abundant, especially the Solstice convertible. Their gas mileage is good too and compare to my EVO X 18mpg.

Chevy Equinox
By Brandon Hill on 4/29/2009 2:50:26 PM , Rating: 5
Why not stick the Vue Hybrid powertrain in the second-gen Chevrolet Equinox crossover and call it a day?

RE: Chevy Equinox
By Bender 123 on 4/29/2009 3:05:48 PM , Rating: 2
That would be too logical!!!! Lets be happy they figured out all those brands were doing nothing but eating their own sales.

Baby steps, Brandon, baby steps...

RE: Chevy Equinox
By quiksilvr on 4/29/09, Rating: -1
RE: Chevy Equinox
By FITCamaro on 4/29/2009 3:23:04 PM , Rating: 5
Have that tinfoil hat screwed on nice and tight?

RE: Chevy Equinox
By quiksilvr on 4/29/09, Rating: 0
RE: Chevy Equinox
By ExarKun333 on 4/30/2009 9:35:54 AM , Rating: 2
Who is paying for it exactly? The oil companies certainly are not, profits are good.

RE: Chevy Equinox
By marvdmartian on 4/29/2009 3:57:28 PM , Rating: 5
Or even (dare I say it?) rebadge some of the current Saturn lineup as Chevys??

Personally, I think it's a shame that they're killing off both the Pontiac Solstice and the Saturn Sky (my favorite).

RE: Chevy Equinox
By FITCamaro on 4/29/2009 6:29:58 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I love the Sky. More than Solstice. A lot more sharper a car. I had a GXP Solstice do a fly by on me last night. Was hoping he'd get on the highway which was one light away and where I was heading but he didn't.

They should move the Vue over to Buick and get rid of their horrid model.

RE: Chevy Equinox
By Belard on 4/30/2009 12:48:47 AM , Rating: 2
The only value that SATURN really has is the SKY. GM doesn't need another SUV and in reality, the VUE is nothing special. The Sky/Solstice are a niche car that I would like to see survice... especially the SKY as it can "look" like a Chevy. Chrysler did that with the Plymonth Prowler.

So quick run down.

Pontiac = dead. The Pontiac G8 is thier modern good car, but its really an import from their Australia division (which actually looks better). What would be cool is that the G8 design stays in the USA, perhaps even nicer with the Austrailian front lamps and rear lights and call it a "Chevy" ;) But the G8 would compete against the Malibu a bit, but its easily a better car. It'll sit well for those who want a 4-door with power like the Camaro.

Saturn = Dead.
SKY = Cool, kill off the Pontiac Solstice (simplifes the line)
Vue = Another SUV, Original VUE was different... now its looks like any typical small size SUV. Chevy has 5.

Aura = Based off the Pontiac G6. Not needed.
Asta = Generic rebadge Opal smart car. Chevy has two.
Outlook = Another Crossfire, Buick & Chevy have three.

Only the SKY & G8 is worth saving out of the bunch. I'd give it 50/50 that nothing will survive.

RE: Chevy Equinox
By Spuke on 4/30/2009 11:50:21 AM , Rating: 2
I own a Solstice GXP but I was originally going to buy a Sky Redline. The only reason why I didn't was I figured the Solstice would be easier to get given the Sky Redline was going to be sold in vastly limited numbers. It turned out the Sky RL was released before the Solstice GXP so I would've gotten a Sky before the Solstice. No matter to me because I love this car!

RE: Chevy Equinox
By grandpope on 4/30/2009 11:48:10 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly. It's not like GM hasn't done that in the past (think Geo Metro).

"Saturn's Technology"
By RU482 on 4/29/2009 5:41:07 PM , Rating: 3
Some analysts like John O’Dell, an analyst at who tracks green cars, can't believe that GM would toss Saturn's technology.

Uh, sorry to tell you Mr ODell, but the alternator drive hybrid (mild hybrid) it was developed by GM Powertrain, not "Saturn".
In fact, it was initially developed for full size trucks (project code name: Paradigm). At the time, I was on the team developing the 2-mode system at Allison Transmission. The Engineers would joke about what a piece of crap the "mild hybrid" system was

RE: "Saturn's Technology"
By DigitalFreak on 4/29/2009 10:14:39 PM , Rating: 2
The engineers had is right. Mild hybrid technology is a piece of crap.

RE: "Saturn's Technology"
By Lord 666 on 4/30/2009 10:01:38 AM , Rating: 3
Then the US engineers failed since they put together a piece of crap.

Engineers for foreign companies would have strived for better.

RE: "Saturn's Technology"
By RU482 on 4/30/2009 1:11:12 PM , Rating: 2
actually, it was a band aid effort to get the "hybrid" product and marketing hype out there while the two mode was in development

how about:
By inperfectdarkness on 4/29/2009 4:00:50 PM , Rating: 1
pontiac = performance cars
saturn = hybrid cars
cadillac = luxury cars
GMC = trucks
Buick = SUV's
Chevy = everything else

but what do i know? i make < $50k/year; so i can't possibly know anything.

RE: how about:
By aromero78 on 4/29/2009 4:16:09 PM , Rating: 5
I hear huffy has some nice options...

RE: how about:
By ExarKun333 on 4/30/2009 9:39:04 AM , Rating: 2
But the point is they don't really need that many BRANDS. Your statement is true, but they have preformance/luxury cars within Cadillac, performance within Chevy (Camaro/Corvette). They need to have these associates at the model level instead, like the corvette or Malibu. These cars THEMSELVES describe them, not the brand. Toyota is like this. Corolla=cheap/efficient Camry=family car Supra=performance (I know it doesn't exist anymore), but you get the idea.

By SimpleLance on 4/29/2009 6:05:01 PM , Rating: 2
Forget the MPG ratings. Here is a real-world test, that was done last year. They tried to find out which car would go the farthest on 50 liters of gas.

You can see that nothing touches the Japanese cars. The most efficient GM (Pontiac) car is the Vibe, and that is actually a re-badged Toyota Matrix.

The test did not involve Toyota's hybrids. If it did, it would be another no-contest.

By FITCamaro on 4/29/2009 6:34:08 PM , Rating: 2
There's nothing green about hybrids either.

By Smilin on 4/29/2009 7:13:49 PM , Rating: 2
I think they'll get much more green as the manufacturing numbers increase.

Right now they are full of so many custom parts shipped, assembled then shipped again that they spew more total carbon than a hummer.

If sales get high enough they'll have some truly efficient mass production in a location near to where they are being sold (we hope).

I also hope we don't see too much of a trend away from lead-acid batteries either. The recycling rate on lead from batteries puts aluminum/glass recycling to shame. Unfortunately I think lead-acid's days are numbered for hybrids though..for all the obvious power/weight reasons.

By theapparition on 4/30/2009 9:56:37 AM , Rating: 2
Way to skew the results. A japanese car also finished at the bottom of the list, too.

Gubment's not gonna like this . . . .
By Bateluer on 4/29/2009 2:53:29 PM , Rating: 5
Its all about the green . . . in more ways than one.

By MozeeToby on 4/29/2009 3:27:12 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe it's a negotiation/blackmail strategy.

As in, "Ok we'll keep the Saturn technology going, but only if we get a green technology grant to cover the costs". If nothing else, GM has shown lately that they're not above a little brinksmanship when it comes to getting money out of the government.

Saturn is NOT dying
By gobbers999 on 4/30/2009 8:22:21 AM , Rating: 2
This article is INCORRECT. Statements made that Saturn will be 'dead' at the end of the year is opinion only!

In fact... the Saturn brand's decision will be left to the dealers, who wish to buy the brand.... because contrary to what GM says, it is a profitable car company. The only reason GM says it's not profitable is because they cross platform ALL of their cars, so no brand is unique. Except of course for Cadillac and Corvette... which happens to be unique brands, which GM is keeping. GM is run by idiots that NEVER ask the customers what they want.

As for the hybrids... Saturn was the FIRST GM brand to quietly incorporate hybrids into their line. And in fact, it was the Saturn brand that prompted GM to invest into the 'green' marketing.

But in the end, Saturn will once again return to what its original conception was meant to be "A different kind of company, a different kind of car". Only this time, it won't be in control of idiot GM and their UAW lovers!

RE: Saturn is NOT dying
By Jacerie on 4/30/2009 9:35:23 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe after Saturn gains it's freedom from GM we can start having the annual Saturn "Family" picnics again.

RE: Saturn is NOT dying
By Spuke on 4/30/2009 11:56:17 AM , Rating: 2
Number of Hybrids
By DaveLessnau on 4/29/2009 6:14:29 PM , Rating: 2
I was fairly surprised at the number of hybrids sold in 2008 (as mentioned in this article). From all the hype, I had assumed that hybrid sales were a significant part of total automobile sales. When I saw the small numbers in this article, I did some cursory investigation and found this:

If I'm reading the first table correctly (about two screens down under "US Sales"), hybrid sales in 2008 totaled 314,271 units, while all sales totaled 13,260,747 units. That means hybrids accounted for only about 2% of US sales (by unit). I don't know how the profit margins stack up, but perhaps GM doesn't care too much about Saturn's hybrid technology since it doesn't seem to generate a bottom line (Saturn's minuscule share of a minuscule market). Of course, if my reading of these numbers is correct, at these production levels it doesn't even look as though keeping a production line dedicated to these hybrids could be profitable.

RE: Number of Hybrids
By Spuke on 4/30/2009 1:11:48 PM , Rating: 2
You are correct. Hybrid sales have been grossly overinflated. I don't know how many people I had to convince that the media was full of $h!t. Pickup trucks are still biggest sellers.

By tviceman on 4/29/2009 5:19:25 PM , Rating: 2
The Cruze and Volt, to my knowledge, will get better fuel mileage than any cars in GM's current fleet. And while having options is great (hybrid vs. standard), when the total percentage of hybrid sales is abysmally low for GM, this news doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me.

Hybrids Aside
By Einy0 on 4/29/2009 8:20:19 PM , Rating: 2
GM is making a huge mistake cutting Saturn. It's far and away their best product line. The only american car you can buy that competes with Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc...

The beginning of the end
By Beenthere on 4/29/09, Rating: -1
RE: The beginning of the end
By UNCjigga on 4/29/2009 5:23:13 PM , Rating: 2
How could this happen? We already know the answer--when the US auto industry wasn't busy building crap cars that nobody wants, their management was making piss-poor business decisions and throwing whatever money they made at the unions and pension funds carte blanche.

RE: The beginning of the end
By Smilin on 4/29/2009 5:43:59 PM , Rating: 2
Whoa..easy there fella.

The beginning of the end happened last year when the economy took a downturn. The US automakers should have withstood such a downturn but unfortunately they've been performing like sh*t for 30 years. Don't go blaming Obama (or Bush) for the incompetence of US auto management.

My prediction:
The first thing that is going to happen if the auto industry collapses is everyone is going to scramble to figure out how to keep a million people employed.

You'll see ideas like stimulus plans and public works projects tossed around. None of these ideas will get you the same bang for your buck that you would get by just giving handouts to the automakers to keep them afloat. Face it, the taxpayer is going to be giving handouts either at GM headquarters, or at the state unemployment line. The GM handouts are the lesser of two evils.

In the near term (say over the next year) the handouts to automakers are the most cost effective way to keep a million people employed. It's ultimately unsustainable though. I think the best idea would be to keep up the handouts until after the worst of the downturn is over. After that any automaker still on lifesupport should conduct a graceful bankruptcy and die. There will hopefully be some available jobs by than.

Please do not confuse my support for a bailout as sympathy for US automakers. I'm looking out for my own @ss. I think after 30 years of such performance they should be allowed to die. I just don't want it to crush the economy in such a way that responsible and well managed companies start struggling.

For US Autoworkers I say:
Jump ship man. Get out of the industry altogether if you can. If you lose your job do not internalize it and blame yourself...there is nothing wrong with the US auto're the same caliber as the guys working here in the US for Honda and Toyota...they just have different management.

RE: The beginning of the end
By Finnkc on 4/30/2009 10:45:49 AM , Rating: 1
I feel like everyone is cheering for the "slow / fat" kid in the race because he just fell flat on his face. Some people are laughing, some people are cheering him on as to keep him in the race.

But once that is over no one is going to care about the fat kid anymore. The faster leaders just lapped the fat kid while he was picking up his dignity, and finished the race.

Fat kid got the motherly cheers, and the winner got the trophy and the cheerleader.

RE: The beginning of the end
By Smilin on 4/30/2009 12:27:18 PM , Rating: 2
lol you said GM was big boned.

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