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GM CEO Rick Wagoner getting out of the driver's seat of a Volt test vehicle wrapped in Chevrolet Cruze bodywork.  (Source: Win McNamee/Getty Images)

Chevrolet Volt
GM's Rick Wagoner to showcase Volt technology in his trip to Washington

The Big Three are looking for $25 billion USD from the federal government in order to keep afloat for the foreseeable future. The Detroit auto giants were chastised for coming before Congress without a well thought out plan for recovery and arriving in three separate private jets. The Big Three are now doing their best to placate lawmakers who seem to be turning a deaf ear.

GM [DOC], Ford [PDF], and Chrysler [PDF] have all submitted their plans to Congress which detail the steps that will be taken to eliminate unprofitable brands and produce efficient cars the people actually want to purchase. After being smacked around for arriving in private jets a few weeks ago, Ford CEO Alan Mulally is said to be making the trek to Washington in an Escape Hybrid. Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli is reported to be making the same trip via a commercial air flight. However, GM CEO Rick Wagoner is looking to make the most commotion by arriving in Washington via a prototype Chevrolet Volt.

According to Autoblog, Wagoner was originally expected to make the complete trip from Detroit to Washington in a Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid. While the Malibu Hybrid definitely plays up GM's commitment to hybrid vehicles, it is not exactly a mileage-competitive offering compared to its Japanese rivals. The Malibu Hybrid is rated at 24/32 MPG city/highway while the Nissan Altima Hybrid and Toyota Camry Hybrid are rated at 35/32 MPG city/highway and 33/34 MPG city/highway respectively.

Wagoner will still use the Malibu Hybrid for at least part of the trip to Washington, but he will switch to a prototype Volt once he gets closer to Washington (and the cameras). The Detroit Free Press reports that the prototype Volt and its running gear will be covered with the bodywork of another upcoming GM model:  the Chevrolet Cruze. The Volt and the Cruze are both built on GM's next generation Delta platform.

GM is also said to be trucking in a non-functioning Volt display model to show off as well.

The Chevrolet Volt can travel 40 miles on a single charge thanks to its onboard lithium-ion battery pack. This battery pack in turn powers a 150 HP, 273 lb-ft electric motor to provide forward momentum. Once the battery pack has reached a preset minimum charge level, a 1.4-liter gasoline engine kicks in to recharge the battery pack and provide an additional range of about 320 miles.

Customers who purchase a Volt will be eligible for a $7,500 tax credit thanks to a provision in the $700 billion USD Wall Street bailout package. The $7,500 should make a sizeable dent in the estimated $40,000 price tag of the Volt.

GM is asking for $18 billion USD in emergency loans from the government -- $4 billion USD of which the company direly needs before 2009 arrives and at least another $12 billion by April of next year.

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GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By SpaceJumper on 12/4/2008 7:24:30 AM , Rating: 5
GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry to prove his point. If the US government does not bailout the US automakers then the American will be driving the Japanese vehicles.




RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By wideout on 12/4/2008 8:32:10 AM , Rating: 5
Can I have an American made PlayStation then? At what point do we draw the line between what has to be American made?

I'm personally in the mind set that if it can improve our lives, lets do it. So if it means the domestic automakers are reduced in size and scope, so be it. There will be some new industry to take its place. 20 or 30 years ago, nobody anticipated the computer industry would be as robust as it is today. Maybe some new industry will finally revitalize the rust belt of the US. But that may only happen if we all our economy to move on to bigger and better things.


By NullSubroutine on 12/4/2008 11:33:44 AM , Rating: 4
Can you fight a war with a Playstation?


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Gzus666 on 12/4/2008 11:40:22 AM , Rating: 2
If you drop a ton of them from a B2 at 30,000 feet, I'm sure you could. I like my plan, fill bombers with pennies and feces, drop it on the offending country. Cheaper than bombs and the reconstruction money is already there when we are done.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By MrBlastman on 12/4/2008 12:07:59 PM , Rating: 2
Mythbusters already proved a falling penny would reach terminal velocity and not be harmful in most cases.

The poop though - that would create quite a mess. :)


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Darkefire on 12/4/2008 5:40:33 PM , Rating: 2
A single penny would lack the mass to do significant damage. A roll of pennies would do a fair bit more. A cruise missile-sized chunk of cow shit riddled with rolls of pennies would do a whole lot of damage and definitely ruin someone's day. And as people have said, when you go to clean up you've got the cash and the crop fertilizer just waiting for you.

Biological warfare for the eco-weenies. I like it.


By Gzus666 on 12/4/2008 5:49:31 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, I also have been bouncing the idea of using dead animals/people to drop on them as well. We could wipe out countries pretty quickly/cheaply that way.


By cokbun on 12/5/2008 12:53:01 AM , Rating: 3
WOMD ( Weapons Off Mass Defecation )


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By oab on 12/4/2008 4:49:53 PM , Rating: 3
Maddox came up with the idea of dropping pennies from bombers instead of bombs back in 2003.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=pe...

(unless he stole it from you/you two thought of it independently and have no idea who this Maddox guy is)


By Gzus666 on 12/4/2008 5:47:45 PM , Rating: 2
Oddly enough, I had the thought a long time ago as crap and pennies separately, then I saw Maddox's post on it and realized we think alike, ha.


By bighairycamel on 12/4/2008 11:41:10 AM , Rating: 4
Can you fight a war with a mid size sedan?


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2008 12:23:10 PM , Rating: 2
They hurt pretty bad when you run someone over with it. And you can always mount an M60 to the sunroof and replace the headlights with grenade launchers.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By BZDTemp on 12/4/2008 1:45:35 PM , Rating: 2
Common knowledge will have the Toyota pick-ups are much better for make shift army use. Just look what every self respecting war lord drives :-)


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By oab on 12/4/2008 4:57:24 PM , Rating: 4
Toyota Hilux, the completely indestructible pickup as proven by Top Gear.

Crashed into a tree, set on fire, drowned in the ocean, hit with a wrecking ball, crushed with a caravan, driven through a garden shed and then eventually strapped to the top of a building while it was being demolished with explosives and subsequently falling 240 feet.

And it still worked.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Raidin on 12/8/2008 12:04:49 PM , Rating: 2
Don't forget it was scraped in the rear driver's side or so against a brick corner as it was exiting a narrow alley at low speed...

...and it still worked.


By Reclaimer77 on 12/8/2008 7:19:10 PM , Rating: 2
lol I just Googled the Top Gear Helux video and I can't believe it. If they are being honest and not using ANY parts to repair it and only basic tools... well.. hell.

Toughest truck ever made by mankind lol. Period !

The clincher was it being blown up with a building and still running and driving. Even IF a vehicle survived the fall, you would think the massive explosion and vibration would have shook something, anything, loose and cause it to not function.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Bender 123 on 12/4/2008 2:38:08 PM , Rating: 5
In a sense yes...Read your history books. GM, Ford, etc...became the factories of the war machine during World War 2. They were responsible for building tanks, armored vehicles, jeeps, etc.

Without the auto industry, the US would not have been able to mobilize the force it did in the Pacific and Europe.


By clovell on 12/4/2008 3:07:03 PM , Rating: 2
As Ferdinand Porsche did when Hitler approached him to do the same for the Germans - they called it Volkswagen.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By teldar on 12/4/2008 8:34:46 PM , Rating: 4
The Ford Trimotor was a phenomenally useful airplane during the war effort.
Absolutely the manufacturing capacity of the U.S. saved us.

However......
new and streamlined manufacturing should be implemented. This does eliminate a significant number of jobs. This should mean the end of the UAW as that dinosaur has no place in modern manufacturing as shown by Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai....

T


By NullSubroutine on 12/6/2008 5:03:06 AM , Rating: 2
UAW was in Toyota now, last I read.


By NullSubroutine on 12/6/2008 5:11:51 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly what I was alluring to. Without a manufacturing base in our country and fighting another World War would result in huge infastructure issues. Even if you simply take the big three, trim it down to one company and produce vehicles like Car, Truck, SUV, Van - at least you have the infastructure in place to build any type of vehicle needed.

It is a national security issue directly and indirectly with the loss of jobs and probable despression.


By CloudFire on 12/4/2008 12:12:36 PM , Rating: 2
didn't the playstation 3's ability to control a cruise missile (or some sort of tactical projectile) make headlines a few years back? if that's the case, then yes!


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By ebakke on 12/4/2008 12:21:49 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see the point you're attempting to make. Please elaborate.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Suntan on 12/4/2008 1:26:14 PM , Rating: 5
During WWII our ability to win the war was widely acknowledged to be due to the ability for us to churn out fighter aircraft, tanks, boats, ships etc. faster than the Germans and Japs could destroy them. In short, it was our manufacturing power that won the war.

During the height of WWII, the American automotive factories where shutdown and retooled to build these weapons... starting to see the point?

-Suntan


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By FITCamaro on 12/4/2008 1:44:24 PM , Rating: 1
These days we'd be f*cked even if the automakers survive.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Suntan on 12/4/2008 2:06:45 PM , Rating: 3
I don’t know about that. Even with no manufacturing changeover our military has the ability to totally annihilate any other country or even most groups of countries if they really wanted to take the gloves off and not worry about collateral damage of the enemy’s citizens (which would become very unimportant very quickly if American citizens were actually endangered by the enemy country.)

Even in a world war scenario, that Rouge plant of Ford’s, although a sliver of its prior capabilities, probably still has the required capitol equipment to start building armored Humvees or even conventionally armored M1A1 tanks from raw materials in a matter of a month or so if true war time need necessitated it.

-Suntan


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Ringold on 12/4/2008 2:39:47 PM , Rating: 2
I somehow doubt a Chevy Malibu production line can be converted to modern battle tanks. WW II was a special war at a special time in the development of the western world; raw materials went in one side of a complex and out popped B-52 bombers out the other side.

Today, that vertical integration doesn't exist. Ore may be mined in Australia, sent to China, and turned in to some basic good. Then it might be shipped to America, where its further manipulated in to a higher value good. Then sent to Mexico for assembly in to a final good. Then shipped who knows where for final sale.

The national defense argument fails, IMHO, because the big three wont disappear if they go in to bankruptcy. Even if they did, Toyota and others have the same facilities here. It's unimaginable we'd go to war with Japan, but lets say we did, and Toyota didn't play ball with our military. Fine. We could wave our magic wand, and confiscate their US operations. Now it's an American company. Russia does it, and in war, I think libertarians would even look the other way. National security problem solved.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Suntan on 12/4/2008 2:54:05 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I somehow doubt a Chevy Malibu production line can be converted to modern battle tanks.


What part of Ford’s Rouge plant makes you think I was talking about a Chevy Malibu? I commented as such because the Rouge plant was notable for being one of the first plants to be completely vertically integrated, and although the F150s and SUVs that are built there today are not built that way, a short amount of very concerted effort could make it available for military manufacturing once again. With raw materials, namely steel from the iron range of Northern Minnesota shipped directly from the Duluth harbor to the back door of the plant without ever needing to be unloaded from the super liner.

-Suntan


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Ringold on 12/4/2008 3:39:20 PM , Rating: 1
Sure, we could do a great number of things if we tried hard enough. That doesn't mean we should strive for vertical integration; there are reasons we moved away from it. I mentioned the Chevy Malibu assembly lines because that is what we have now. You're talking about something that no longer exists.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Suntan on 12/5/2008 10:02:33 AM , Rating: 4
I toured the Rouge plant a month ago. Those foundries could have been an illusion, but they looked pretty real to me.

-Suntan


By jtemplin on 12/7/2008 3:20:28 AM , Rating: 2
Lol Suntan. You totally owned Ringold.
BTW: Thanks for the interesting facts too.


By croc on 12/4/2008 4:42:42 PM , Rating: 2
I think your b52 example was a bit out of scope for WW II... B24 PARTS (wing assemblies, fuselage frame, rudder assemblies, etc.) rolled in one door, were mated, skinned, engines mounted, etc.


By NullSubroutine on 12/6/2008 5:23:40 AM , Rating: 2
It's not about tanks, they are expensive and not always going to be your main fighting force. Think like this.

Think of the entire manufacturing base that supports the auto industry. Think of those who make the equipment to build the cars, think of the people who make the parts for the engines, the cars, the fluids and oils - think of all the things that are required to make a vehicle.

Now imagine it is World War III, we are fighting for survival. Imagine using not only the factories used to make vehicles, but using the entire industry. Using the parts suppliers, the liquid suppliers, everything - they can make different kinds of parts they do it every year or when new models come out.

Now imagine you are a country without this industry base of support. Where are the parts going to come from? Who is going to make the equipment that can produce the weapons of war? That's right no one. You relied on a few plants that are designed to produce peace time levels of vehicles, not war time. Now you have to spend X amount of time building the entire supply chain from the ground up. You think time is free in war?


By foolsgambit11 on 12/4/2008 7:50:00 PM , Rating: 2
We don't need Ford, GM, or Chevy to win a war if we 'really want to.' We've got the firepower right now to destroy continents from afar, without building a single M1A1 or M998 (HMMWV). H-bomb FTW. Literally.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By BigPeen on 12/4/2008 2:32:59 PM , Rating: 2
A modern war would be less about churning out massive amounts of fighters and tanks luckily. More about having the most advanced equipment and weapons, which we luckily have.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Bender 123 on 12/4/2008 2:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
After technology is used to start a fight, it always ends on conventional terms. Iraq/Afghanistan should prove that.

All the air power and technology of the US was held at bay by a group of fanatics with bombs made from spare parts of equipment out of use since the 60s.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Suntan on 12/4/2008 3:04:27 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
After technology is used to start a fight, it always ends on conventional terms. Iraq/Afghanistan should prove that.


What they proved is that it is exceedingly difficult to defeat an enemy that has no qualms with hiding amongst its own citizens, if you desire minimal collateral damage over expediency.

If it were a true world war fight for survival ala WWII, the desire to minimize enemy civilian collateral damage would get thrown out the window very quickly. At which time, tactics would change to the more traditional method of beating the piss out of them until nobody is left to fight back. This is a tactical method that the American military is much more capable of doing than any of its adversaries.

quote:
All the air power and technology of the US was held at bay by a group of fanatics with bombs made from spare parts of equipment out of use since the 60s.


Once again, IEDs are very effective against ground troops that are required to intermingle amongst the civilian population where they are particularly venerable to these attacks (and are required to be when the mission is policing and protecting these civilians.)

IEDs lose a lot of effectiveness when tactics are changed to simply eradicate the enemies with little to no appreciation for the collateral damage caused. (An IED isn’t going to do didly against a carpet of dropped bombs from 50,000 feet.)

-Suntan


By AssBall on 12/5/2008 2:55:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
particularly venerable to these attacks


*vulnerable* hehe that was funny.

But your post is absolutely right. The *war*s we have fought since Korea have nothing to do with obliterating the opposition anymore. If they were, we'd be over and done with all of them, and be hated and feared even more by the rest of the world.


By Suntan on 12/4/2008 2:48:38 PM , Rating: 2
I was answering his question, not posing a theoretical situation of my own.

-Suntan


By Aikouka on 12/4/2008 4:04:07 PM , Rating: 1
I'm not entirely sure why you're bringing this up. I mean, I can see the historical significance of their support during World War II, which people should remember. However, do you truly believe that they could do the same thing now? I think they could probably assist in manufacturing. I'm also not big on the manufacturing and even some of the prowess of the old war machines, but the machines today are quite complex and also (depending on the machine) can be expensive to produce.

Also, I don't think I'd want to be the pilot stuck flying the Ford F22 Raptor :o. How about the Chrysler C130 :P.


By TechIsGr8 on 12/5/2008 11:50:29 AM , Rating: 2
Um, we can't make a fighter jet without parts from China...


By Samus on 12/6/2008 10:19:57 PM , Rating: 1
They gave 700 BILLION to the banks without any provisions or even a plan on how they are going to spend it.

But at the same time won't give 25 billion to the auto industry, which is only failing because gas has been over $3/gallon for 5 years, and now the economy is so bad nobody is buying new cars and is rather just fixing their old ones.

Being more stereotype than racist, allow me to say...

BANKS=Jews
AUTOS=Blues

These asshole congressmen, be in red or blue, don't give a shit about those that work their ass off building our vehicles. If America loses its manufacturing industry, what the hell do we have left. 1 in 11 American jobs are tied to the auto industry. That means 10,000,000 people will be affected.

If you're going to bail the fucking banks without any strings attached...why the hell are you playing hardball with these people. I don't have a lot of respect for these CEO's, but it's Jaques Nasser that did the damage to Ford, and the unions that are destroying all three. From top to bottom, American vehicles have never been better than they are today. Hell, they've been competitive for years!


By eye smite on 12/5/2008 4:36:32 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly, I don't see any reasons why american auto makers who lead the industry for so long can't compete or take the lead in this market again at least in this country. The only problem I see are the people at the reigns of the company controlling them. Money hungry exploiters that don't listen to their customers needs or wants. That historically has been the reason many companies have gone from leaders to has beens. Iomega, Gateway, Maytag washers and dryers and the list goes on. This has been coming for decades and the big 3 have ignored it. The Malibu hybrid gets the same mileage as my Mother's 1986 Olds Delta 88 from 2 decades ago when she bought it new. Because they haven't improved gas mileage she switched to Honda 12 yrs ago. It's really rather simple.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Spivonious on 12/4/2008 8:42:09 AM , Rating: 4
You mean the Toyota Camry that's made in Ohio by American workers?


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By callmeroy on 12/4/2008 9:29:04 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
You mean the Toyota Camry that's made in Ohio by American workers?


Yes I think he means that one made in Ohio by American workers that still get many parts imported from over seas....

BUT my point to state that was just to correct the sentiment that its 100% American made, in reality -- I don't see the point at all in bickering if something is American made or not anymore.

Back when America was an industrial and/or manufacturing economy -- yes, then I could see the cries for "Buy American...and American Made Baby!!!" now that's just a day late and dollar short folks.

We (USA) are no longer a manufacturing based economy, and we haven't been for some time now...we are a service based economy. Get used to it -- other countries are manufacturing cheaper thus they will continue to do so. The cold reality is business is all about money, and CEO's want money more than serving some American ideal.

Do I agree with this? Not really, but I at least understand it.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By spread on 12/4/2008 9:45:46 AM , Rating: 3
Here in Canada we're also considered a service economy, but our manufacturing sector still makes up a significant amount of the GDP. If it were to crash suddenly, we would feel the effects immediately.

The United States still has a big manufacturing sector and it needs to be managed properly.


By Tsuwamono on 12/4/2008 10:15:45 AM , Rating: 3
Canada's manufacturing makes up something like 20% i believe. I think we are more then 70% service.


By oab on 12/4/2008 5:00:56 PM , Rating: 3
The manufacturing sector has already crashed. Just look at Oshawa, #1 gm plant in North America (in terms of quality) shut down because the trucks it makes are no longer being purchased. Magna is laying off hundreds of workers and closing two plants.

It is only a question now of if it can be saved.


By oab on 12/4/2008 5:00:57 PM , Rating: 2
The manufacturing sector has already crashed. Just look at Oshawa, #1 gm plant in North America (in terms of quality) shut down because the trucks it makes are no longer being purchased. Magna is laying off hundreds of workers and closing two plants.

It is only a question now of if it can be saved.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By InsaneGain on 12/4/2008 1:10:56 PM , Rating: 5
So you claim America is no longer a manufacturing economy. Americans still desire many manufactured goods though. So you say 'let foreign countries manufacture goods for America, and then we can focus on services.' Well what exactly are Americans trading to the foreign nations for all their manufactured goods? The Chinese for example, simply take all your US dollars and lend them back to the U.S. to finance the massive U.S. deficits. This cannot go on indefinitely. As soon as the Chinese stop this practice, the value of the US dollar will collapse like you have never seen, and Americans will no longer be able to afford anything produced in other countries, even the unassembled Toyota auto parts. Then you will learn why you either need to manufacture you own goods, or create something that is in demand overseas to trade for them. Your understanding of how economics works is flawed and will lead to failure in the long run.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Suntan on 12/4/2008 1:30:53 PM , Rating: 2
And what do you think is the resulting effect that China will experience when they have no one to buy the stuff they make?

America is not the only one with something to lose if that economic model goes tits up overnight.

Your understanding of economics doesn't seem to be all that stellar either.

-Suntan


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By InsaneGain on 12/4/2008 3:06:13 PM , Rating: 4
Well Suntan, yes you are right at this moment in time. That is not what I am talking about however. Long term, this model will not work. What do you think will happen when China inevitably creates its own consumer society? It is getting closer every single day, much quicker than anyone would have guessed.


By Ringold on 12/4/2008 3:51:30 PM , Rating: 2
China creating a consumer economy would be a net boon for the world. Their great donation to the world, disinflationary pressure, would be gone, to be replaced by a more balanced picture of global trade; they'd export less as their wages went up (which has been happening) and import more luxury goods from Japan, America, and Europe. Fine Italian designer sunglasses, for example, or more American General Electric MRI's for hospitals, etc, etc.

To fear the rise of a wealthy Chinese people who spend their money is like saying Canada should be a third world country because America prospered so much over the last century, some strange idea where we suck wealth from neighbors. Not how it works.

Why or what are the mechanics? Well, I'm not going to repeat the basics of trade, etc., that information is widely available.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By callmeroy on 12/4/2008 1:47:17 PM , Rating: 2
I claim?

No "I" don't claim it, "I" am just reporting the FACTS.

Most of the money in this country is generated by SERVICES not manufactured goods. And don't be a moron, of course there is SOME manufacturing in the country still...that's NOT what the phrase "we are no longer a manufacturing economy" means -- it means its no longer the lion share of our production like it was in the hey day of say the steel and textile industries.

This isn't me bub..this is the fact based on our GNP , so what we export stuff -- WTF is your point? Of course some stuff is still made here, but more service dollars drive the economy on a national scale than a manufacturing does -- on a national scale (of course some regions around the country will have stronger manufacturing than services, etc.).


By callmeroy on 12/4/2008 1:49:03 PM , Rating: 2
oh yeah forget to add...

YAY NAFTA!

/end sarcasm


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By InsaneGain on 12/4/2008 3:01:18 PM , Rating: 3
Actually maybe I wasn't clear with my point. Yes the U.S. has transitioned to a predominately service based economy and import a lot of the manufactured goods that everyone wants. My point is that this development is not viable in the long term if Americans don't create something else that foreign coutries demand, and the average person shouldn't just sit there and think that it is a desirable and natural progression for a prosperous nation.
The situation for US manufacturing, including the auto industry, is not a good one, and I think people should be concerned.


By Spuke on 12/5/2008 12:54:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The situation for US manufacturing, including the auto industry, is not a good one, and I think people should be concerned.
It's called change dude. We've changed the way we make money many times. All the while becoming even more of an economic powerhouse as time progresses. Although I'm somewhat of an isolationist, those days are long gone and will not return. Get used to it.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By gregpet on 12/4/2008 2:02:26 PM , Rating: 2
China will overtake us (one coat hanger at a time) at some point but the USA is still the largest manufacture in the world...
Why don't you people think Americans can envision, design, manufacture and sale the best cars in the world? If the American car manufacturers didn't have the legacy costs and unions to deal with they would not be in the dire straights that they find themselves in today...The foreigners have the advantage of starting their manufacturing in America by building in non-union states...


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Suntan on 12/4/2008 2:29:16 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
China will overtake us (one coat hanger at a time) at some point but the USA is still the largest manufacture in the world...


Of that I do not agree, based on my direct experience working with both American and Chinese manufacturing. It’s awfully hard to “pull ahead” of someone when all you are good at is blatantly copying them.

Don’t underestimate America’s ability to redefine itself. Even in the midst of these tumultuous times, the systematic changes that will result from it will allow America to move forward faster than most other nations that were slow to react to financially deteriorating forces, and they will most likely only implement completely reactionary safeguards moving forward (which may shield them from something like this in the future, but won’t allow them to prosper from it.)

American history has shown a very good track record of dealing with setbacks in a way that other countries/empires historically have not.

-Suntan


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By InsaneGain on 12/4/2008 3:41:22 PM , Rating: 3
A friend of mine works at a photonics engineering firm in California, and he said almost all the engineers that work there are from China or Eastern Europe. There are just a few Americans. For some reason, the United States is putting out too many lawyers and not enough engineers.
Yeah, I work with Chinese manufacturers every day. They are learning quickly, and are willing to do what it takes to earn business. I read an article recently about an American research firm that developed a new battery technology that could revolutionize the industry. They tried a number of American battery manufacturers to develop the technology, and only one company was interested. They wanted millions of dollars to develop a prototype. So this research firm went to China where a stampede of companies competed for the right to develop the new technology. They all gave extensive presentations on their facilities and capabilities hoping the American research firm would choose them. No upfront money would be required.


By Suntan on 12/5/2008 10:19:17 AM , Rating: 2
That’s great, really is. Sounds like what *you’ve read* and what *others have told you* paint a very rosy picture of things.

What I have *directly experienced myself* is not the same. Namely, that Chinese companies are willing to bend over backwards to get work, then do a shite of it afterwards with no real understanding of why the Western world looks down on practices like:

Signing contractual agreements about developing new tech only to go off the next day and develop a complete copy of it for a competing company.

Or committing to certain quality control requirements for parts, obtain the required tooling to meet those requirements, then subcontracting those parts to the guy down the street (who employs manual labor with ball peen hammers) because a new Western company wants them to sign a contract for a new run of parts, all the while maintaining falsified records as if to suggest they were making them in house.

Not to mention that on any given day half of their assembly line workers may not show up for work because a new factory has opened up down the road and are willing to pay 10 cents more. Therefore your parts, which they have promised to supply on an agreed upon delivery schedule just don’t show up with no advanced warning from the Chinese supplier.

While I do acknowledge that a lot of good changes are going on for China, and a lot of it is beneficial for the people there, they have a *long* way to go; technically, socially and ethically if they want to sync up with the Western style of commerce.

-Suntan


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By fflintstone on 12/4/2008 3:16:34 PM , Rating: 3
Well, the real problem is that Americans employed as "labor" are accustomed to an American standard of living. Now they are being asked to compete with laborers in other countries who have MUCH lower expectations. That is a BIG problem with no good solutions. In order for our economy to be viable in the long term, we really have very few options. Basically, either our labor force has to have its standard of living reduced to somewhere near parity with the international competition or we have to resort to tariffs and such to operate outside of the world labor market.
And don't delude yourself into thinking that our unskilled laborers can simply be retrained for higher-value jobs. If they were capable of that, most of them would already by there. It's really not practical to say that we will be the "service" providers and other countries will be the "labor" providers. We as a nation need to provide viable options for all of our citizens, regardless of their capabilities. Failure to do so will lead to disaster.


By gregpet on 12/4/2008 4:36:24 PM , Rating: 3
I'm not talking about competing with China...They will make the best coat hangers in the world and good on 'em...We need to build airplanes, power generation, water purification, etc AND cars!
American labor works in Japanese car plants all over the southern US. The problem isn't how much a US worker gets paid. The problem is the unions getting job banks and gold-plated benefits packages...Disband the unions, save OUR auto industry...


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By bbomb on 12/4/2008 10:32:36 AM , Rating: 5
Whose profits ALL go to Japan. Whats happening in this country is like that commercial said..the largest transfer of wealth in world history. What good is a service economy if Americans refuse to purchase anything that benefits American companies.

People base their buying decision on cars that were made 20 years ago saying that everything coming out of Detroit is just as trashy and bad as what came out then. The big three have gotten the point and actually make some very good cars nowadays.

They cant compete on prices due to the cost of labor. Japanese companies pay almost nothing compared to what the big three have to pay in labor.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By nosfe on 12/4/2008 11:16:52 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Whose profits ALL go to Japan


tell me, do you know what stocks are?


By Smilin on 12/4/2008 11:42:25 AM , Rating: 2
Touche sir! +1 for you.

Some of Toyota's profits come to ME in fact.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By SuperFly03 on 12/4/2008 12:41:42 PM , Rating: 1
the only share of profits stockholders ever see directly from the company is dividends.


By Suntan on 12/4/2008 1:34:14 PM , Rating: 4
That is not true. Dividends are one method, but corporate stock buybacks have the direct effect of making the stock price go up (as there is now fewer stocks available on the market.)

Feel free to get truely anal about the meaning of "directly" if you want though.

-Suntan


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Spivonious on 12/4/2008 11:20:44 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Whose profits ALL go to Japan. Whats happening in this country is like that commercial said..the largest transfer of wealth in world history. What good is a service economy if Americans refuse to purchase anything that benefits American companies.


The profits may go to Japan, but in today's economy it doesn't really matter where the profits go if the company is as global as Toyota is. It will get reinvested throughout the world. "Buying American" means very little today, as most "Made in USA" products are actually manufactured overseas and then assembled in the US.

Thanks for using the proper "whose" too. It's rare to see here on the Web.

quote:
People base their buying decision on cars that were made 20 years ago saying that everything coming out of Detroit is just as trashy and bad as what came out then. The big three have gotten the point and actually make some very good cars nowadays.


I agree that GM/Chrysler/Ford have been making quality cars for at least five years now. I have a 2003 Focus that is coming up on 80k miles and the only problems have been cosmetic (trim falling off, etc.). The reason they're hurting is that the "SUV bubble" has burst and they had all their eggs in one basket.

quote:
They cant compete on prices due to the cost of labor. Japanese companies pay almost nothing compared to what the big three have to pay in labor.


Which is solely the fault of the UAW. I can't believe that assembly line workers are making more than I do. Unions have no place in today's economy. If GM could convince their workers to ditch the UAW and have their salaries adjusted to more reasonable levels, I have no doubt that GM could make a cheaper, better quality car than Toyota or Honda.


By MadMan007 on 12/4/2008 11:47:39 AM , Rating: 3
Yeah I was shocked when I saw assembly line workers making $100k+. I mean, maybe there are some that deserve that much or it's an inflated number but if it wasn't for the trouble the companies are having and the job insecurity (actually I don't know, that applies anywhere nowadays, I don't just mean the economic downturn) I'd be applying for a UAW job asap.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By whirabomber on 12/4/2008 12:32:42 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The profits may go to Japan, but in today's economy it doesn't really matter where the profits go if the company is as global as Toyota is. It will get reinvested throughout the world. "Buying American" means very little today, as most "Made in USA" products are actually manufactured overseas and then assembled in the US.


Globalization is such a croc. I haven't seen any benefit to me of globalization. I've seen the huge downside which is I can't plan to start at and retire from a company 30 years later anymore. I've seen the huge downside where companies like Wal Mart coerce other companies to go over seas or Wal-Mart won't sell the other companies products. I've seen the huge downside of American's enemies get richer from companies like Wal-Mart forcing other countries overseas.

I think the big point being missed here is that I would rather have Americans controlling its own interest rather than some foreign country. When profits go to a "globalized" company like Toyota it is a Japanese getting more power to pull the strings of domestic America. Money = power.

There are too many Americans out there who just don't get that relationship and believe a few dollars won't ruin America. That thinking is paralleled in the current credit crisis - borrowing a few dollars here and there won't hurt my bottom line. So here we sit in a world made of our own doo doo and are blaming our government for the stinky situation we are currently in.

Opps, did I blame our current economical mess on ourselves instead of some suit in Washington - my bad.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Spuke on 12/4/2008 1:42:16 PM , Rating: 2
So, GM and Ford aren't "globalized" but Toyota is?


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Penti on 12/5/2008 5:22:15 AM , Rating: 2
Haha, I'd say Opel, Vauxhall, Ford Europe, Volvo, Saab, GM Daewoo plus the other brands that is manufactured abroad for non-us markets. In Europe you have a long history, nazi collaboration and all that shit.

You get the picture.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Spuke on 12/5/2008 1:00:31 PM , Rating: 2
It's called sarcasm and mine was REALLY obvious.


By Penti on 12/7/2008 10:06:20 AM , Rating: 2
It was, the post was directed to the post you answered too sorry.


By aapocketz on 12/4/2008 1:12:28 PM , Rating: 2
actually, what we should be concerned about is where the IP is going.

I am seeing high tech companies dropping like flies and their intellectual property and R&D just gets dumped down a drain. If you don't care now, you will when the latest and greatest tech (aerospace, military, information) stops flowing from the US, its the last thing we really got left...


By Hakuryu on 12/4/2008 1:37:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
People base their buying decision on cars that were made 20 years ago saying that everything coming out of Detroit is just as trashy and bad as what came out then. The big three have gotten the point and actually make some very good cars nowadays.


My 90 year old great aunt is legally blind and I drive her everywhere. When she wanted to replace her old Chevrolet, we stopped at just about every car maker out there and test drove alot of cars.

What did she end up buying? A Toyota Camry. Why? Not because of preconceived notions of quality, but for two main reasons - she thought it was a more comfortable ride and the easiest car for her to get into and out of. Most of her friends purchase imports for the same reasons also.


By foolsgambit11 on 12/4/2008 7:55:19 PM , Rating: 2
So what if most of their profits go to Japan. Those profits in America go to a bunch of fat cats who are so out of touch they fly their private jets to ask for billions in hand-outs.

I personally don't care who the millionaires are in a corporation's structure. I do like the fact that the American car companies give their employees better wages (hooray unions) - which is better for America, assuming the companies survive. It would be nice if more of those profits the Japanese car companies make turned into wage or benefit hikes for their workers rather than bonuses for their executives, but they wouldn't be the first execs to screw over the American worker.


By bribud on 12/5/2008 9:36:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They cant compete on prices due to the cost of labor. Japanese companies pay almost nothing compared to what the big three have to pay in labor.


That is the whole problem here. You pay your employees too much for doing too little, and you will not survive. The unions totally destroyed the American auto industry and they would disagree immediately. Enough coddling for the UAW, get paid according to the level of work you do and quit getting babied throughout your entire life.


By vailr on 12/4/2008 12:10:49 PM , Rating: 2
The Toyota Camry is made in Georgetown, Kentucky. Although: I believe some Toyota Camry assembly is also being done in Lafayette, Indiana.
There's Toyota Tundra truck factory in Petersburg, Indiana. AFAIK, there are no Toyota factories located in Ohio. Honda has their main Accord factory in Marysville, Ohio. A new Honda Civic factory very recently started up in Greensburg, Indiana.
Saturn and Nissan have factories in Tennessee.


By omnicronx on 12/4/2008 1:14:22 PM , Rating: 2
You mean those same plants that on average use 25% less American made parts than their American big 3 counterparts?


By superflex on 12/5/2008 9:43:29 AM , Rating: 2
The Camry is made in Georgetown, KY. The Honda Accord is made in Marysville, OH.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Hiawa23 on 12/4/2008 8:55:38 AM , Rating: 5
Most of us are already driving these. I have a Honda C
Civic & Mitsubish Lancer. The American vehicles just never appealed to me, so I am not buying any new cars anytime soon. The Honda Civic is paid off, over 220,000miles, 1997 & runs fine, & the Lancer Ralliart is an 2006, so I owe quite a bit on it, & don't plan on buying anything else, so I think something needs to be done for the car makers, but it's pretty much their own fault. Pushing these gas munching SUVs & Hummers all these years, what did they think would happen when the economy went sour, & gas prices went through the roof?

What I find so funny is these guys get on TV & bash Americans for their debt, credit cards, & stuff then in the next breath say we need to bailout banks, Auto industry. How about help bailout many Americans who are hurting? They gave the money to the banks & all they did was horde it, they bailed out AIG, & they took a retreat. Many Americans have lost their jobs, had their hours cut back, & just trying to get by, genrally your debt gets worst when you have no money as you use the credit cards more. They called the American tax payer irresponsible, yet we must help Wallstreet, hell even many states are begging now.

All I am saying is how hypocritical they are. How about some bailout, or tax holiday for the American taxpayer, who really need it. The CEOs said they would work for $1. Is this a joke, cause they probably have banked millions, so they won't be affected like average Joe who just lost his job, savings, gone, 401k, is now a 201k.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Gzus666 on 12/4/2008 9:15:41 AM , Rating: 2
With what, their good looks? The government is selling friggin' bonds to China to get the money for this bailout. On top of that, they have to pay it back with interest. Do you plan on paying the government back the money with interest? I highly doubt you existing is a money making endeavor. Morons got themselves into debt and while I don't support the bailouts, the last thing they need to do is give money back to moron consumers who screwed up in the first place.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Hiawa23 on 12/4/2008 9:51:48 AM , Rating: 3
Morons got themselves into debt and while I don't support the bailouts, the last thing they need to do is give money back to moron consumers who screwed up in the first place.

Seems like we gave a bunch of morons huge bailouts is my point. Pass the word to whom you like. Don't the auto industry fall into this also, or the banks, etc. I just think it's hypocritical to call individuals morons, & leave out the govt & many companies. There are alot of people responsible here & unfortunately, many good law abiding tax paying citizens are going to get hurt in the crossfire.


By joemoedee on 12/4/2008 10:53:44 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Seems like we gave a bunch of morons huge bailouts is my point. Pass the word to whom you like.


It all goes to baseball.

Say a starting pitcher makes 2 million dollars per year.

Pitcher goes 0-20 with an ERA of 7.42 on the season.

Pitcher goes to front office, says he needs an additional 8 million dollars per year and he'll be good next season.


RE: GM CEO shall be driving a Toyota Camry....
By Gzus666 on 12/4/2008 10:59:20 AM , Rating: 2
Right, but the point is it is a LOAN. The government doesn't have 700 billion dollars, they sold bonds to get it, then LOANED the money to the financial institutions. The same thing will be done for Detroit if they decide to do so. You can't just give non-existent money to tax payers, cause it is loaned money that is being used to loan to someone else.

A business will ideally produce jobs and money, so they can pay back the loan. A debt ridden individual will do neither of these things.