backtop


Print E-mail del.icio.us 35 comment(s) - last by atlmann10.. on Dec 17 at 12:37 AM


A little chip, a big problem; DRAM manufacturers are pleading for government bailouts with sale prices less than half the cost of production due to a bad economy. If the industry collapses it could take global PC sales with it.  (Source: Hynix)
Amid the U.S.'s own bailout dilemma, more countries line up to bail out DRAM producers

The economic crisis has hit many industries hard from banking to automotive to the electronics business.  International governments, including the U.S., have united to bail out the struggling banking and finance industry.  Critics say that these bailout reward mismanagement and undermine the free market, while supporters say they are essential to prevent a depression.

Meanwhile, American lawmakers struggle with bailout plans for the U.S. automakers, as public opinion opposes such a plan.

However, another industry, often forgotten here in the U.S., has been hit even harder by the crisis, pushing it to the brink of collapse -- the DRAM business.

DailyTech previously reported that the Taiwanese was considering bailing out its DRAM manufacturers, to save them from bankruptcy, through much needed cash loans.  Now Germany and South Korea, two other major players in the business are closing in on plans to bail out their own DRAM firms.

The DRAM industry was in trouble due to too much supply and not enough demand even before the worst of the economic downturn hit.  However, when the crisis did hit, it sent the already hurting DRAM firms plummeting towards rock bottom.  Many companies are on the verge of running out of cash and will soon go out of business without intervention.  Ben Tseng, a vice president at Taiwanese DRAM maker ProMOS Technologies, states, "This industry is going through a critical stage."

If the DRAM market collapses, there would be major ramifications for the notebook and desktop market worldwide, as every consumer computer uses DRAM.  Mobile electronics, which also utilize DRAM, would likely suffer as well.  All of these markets could see soaring prices if production dries up.

DRAM makers blame the crisis partially on building too many factories.  When Microsoft's Windows Vista was released, its high memory requirements were expected to boost DRAM sales.  With loans cheap, many new factories were built -- too many in fact.  Now DRAM makers are struggling to pay off these debts and remain operational.

And the market may not have bottomed out quite yet.  Jenny Lai, analyst at CLSA Asia Pacific Markets in Taipei says she expects global unit PC shipments to fall 20 to 25 percent as consumers feel the pinch of the economic downturn.  She states, “The first quarter is likely to be the worst first quarter for the PC in its history."

Taiwan's five biggest DRAM producers have posted $2.85B USD losses this year.  Germany's Qimonda AG has lost $1.95B USD thus far this year.  It says it will run out of cash and collapse in the first quarter without a bailout.  Chipmakers have already tried to close old factories and cut employees to cut costs.

The bottom line problem is simple math -- the most prevalent DRAM chips cost around $1.30 to $1.50/G-bit (DDR2, 667) to produce while they sell for $0.59.

South Korea's Hynix, already bailed out in a controversial 2001-2002 decision, is also is in need of cash.  The situation for Taiwan's largest DRAM maker, Powerchip Semiconductor is even worse, as it expects to soon go out of business without loans.  Taiwan's ProMOS faces similar problems.  It insists it will pay back what it borrows, stating, "We are asking for access to loans.  This is not a handout. The government will get paid back."

Ultimately the bitter pill that critics and proponents of these and other industry bailouts alike must mull over is this --- if the DRAM, automotive and other industries are not bailed out, their collapse will drag down other related industries and place more stress on the already-bailed-out creditors.  However, if they are bailed out, they are just accumulating greater debts, debts which could drag the global economy deeper into recession or worse, should sales and the economy not turn around. 



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Cut thier hands off!
By Mitch101 on 12/15/2008 11:35:58 AM , Rating: 4
Is this a typical corporation today to have such a thin line of profit that if a few quarters go awry they need a bailout to remain running? I'm sure a lot of it is CEO pay, Bonuses, parties, inneficiency, employee pay, etc with a dash of not following industry demand and winding up being overall poorly run companies where the CEO's are nothing more than people asking where is my FEMA trailer and Gov checks when they weren't ever in the path of the storm.

Even oversees these bailouts are making me sick because you know quite a few of these companies don't deserve them.

The first place I would look to determine if a company is worth bailing out is CEO pay and Bonuses. But I am all for companies failing because if you cant survive a few quarters something is wrong with the business model to begin with.

Imagine your kids sticking thier hands out and saying well I cant buy every game and toy I need 30,000k free and clear to cover my gluttony for the next 2 years.

Sorry you know I am stopping here this just has me ticked off when someone is handing out my money free and clear just because some CEO has their hand out. My grandparents would have smacked it and maybe threatened to cut it off.




RE: Cut thier hands off!
By roastmules on 12/15/2008 12:02:14 PM , Rating: 2
I totally agree with you on the CEO (and top management) compensation.
I agree that bailouts are bad. 99% of the time, there should not be a bailout.
However, there is an oddity in the free market at the moment. Basically every country and company in the world is having a collapsing economy, driven over the edge on excessive leveraging in the banking industry, and the US housing market was the straw that broke the camel's back.

In the long-long run, it's probably better to let any free market that can't compete die. However, we may not make it to the long-long run, if we can't stay afloat for the short term. If all ____ (DRAM, car, financial, pick any) companies go out of business next year, then where will be a problem in that market sector, which may lead to a massive financial collapse.

I am now thinking of it in my Kaynesian economics, and want to see infrastructure investments.

I think that the current financial crisis is like a cancer. Unfortunately, we may need to get sicker (chemo/radiation) before we can get better. The treatment is going to be worse than the disease (short term).

The entire world's net assets have dropped in about 1/2 in the past few months. This is a major problem.


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By Samus on 12/15/2008 6:55:00 PM , Rating: 4
economies will collapse, markets will crash, the world will fall into a depression, and you know what comes next. war.


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By Reclaimer77 on 12/15/2008 7:49:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The entire world's net assets have dropped in about 1/2 in the past few months. This is a major problem.


Net wealth, across the globe, has dropped by 50% ?

Can I see your source on that please ?


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By surt on 12/15/2008 9:51:24 PM , Rating: 2
The world's net assets are fundamentally incapable of dropping by a significant amount, except in event of a natural catastrophe like an asteroid impact. We all still have what we have, it's just that the dollar numbers assigned to various things are suffering a radical readjustment.


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By rudolphna on 12/15/08, Rating: 0
RE: Cut thier hands off!
By arazok on 12/15/2008 12:23:09 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I beleive governments should control the economy- to a limited extent, because people are too stupid to do it themselves. Regulation is the only way to limit the greed of some big corporations.


Yes, because governments always proven themselves to be smarter than the people who elect them, and are completely immune to things like greed. </sarcasm>

And those damn greedy corporations, amassing those vast fortunes and then squirreling it away under some rich CEO’s mattress. If I were in charge, I’d force those greedy corporations to give their profits back to society by expanding operations, and creating jobs. I’d also force them to pay a portion of those profits to the government to fund programs. And whatever is left over, they should give away as dividends, so that the average person can have a piece of the pie.

Yep, that’s what I would do. And then those greedy corporations would finally be worth having around!

</raving OMG I can’t believe people can’t see the forest for the trees rant>


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By BladeVenom on 12/15/2008 1:11:47 PM , Rating: 2
Let the ones deepest in debt go out of business. Then there won't be an excess supply and prices will go back up to where the rest will be able to be profitable.

The problem is too much production causing prices to be too low, so how will bailing them all out fix anything? Bailouts will just make the problem last longer, dragging everyone down.


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By surt on 12/15/2008 1:37:59 PM , Rating: 2
It won't fix anything, but it will be good for us. Having foreign governments bail out the memory industry means that other people's taxes are subsidizing our memory purchase, which is great for us.


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By Headfoot on 12/15/2008 4:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
Congratulations!

You made the Top Ten Most Ignorant Posts Of 2008 count down! Eternal glory for you.


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By EidolWays on 12/15/2008 12:07:03 PM , Rating: 2
The problem isn't CEO's sticking their hands out or CEO's being paid too much. If a CEO is paid too much, if a business has too much overhead and too little profit, it will go under. So if that CEO isn't worth his weight in paper (since we don't use gold as currency anymore), then it will show in the business.

No, the problem isn't CEO's. The problem is politicians who consider bailouts to be an option. Of course, everyone who is about to lose their job cries out to the government for help, and politicians respond because they don't want to lose THEIR jobs. Perverse incentives all around.

And of course, these politicians who get paid to tell other people what to do, regardless of qualification, like to whup it up on "overpaid CEO's" who often get their position because of education and reputation, whereas the politicians got there because they were rich and managed to become popular.

In other words, politicians are CEO-wannabes who lack anything approaching business sense.


RE: Cut thier hands off!
By derwin on 12/16/2008 11:40:46 AM , Rating: 2
Profits are so thin because if you try to extend your profit margin any further, a competitor will swoop in and undersell you, religating you to losses due to lack of sales.

CEO compensation is another point that people complain about almost into absurdity. It has become sort of a catch phrase. Why are they paid that much money? Because if they were not, they would go work for another company that would pay them that much, because god's honest truth, they know how to manage a business better than only a hand full of people in the world.

quote:
something is wrong with the business model to begin with.


I dare you to try and run a business better. Not a mom and pop shop sort of gig where you can operate at high profit margins and manage the labor yourself. I mean big business. The kind of business that is required to manufacture 20,000 automobiles a year. The kind of business that is required to do R&D on integrated circuits. That sort of stuff costs money. Lots of money. Where does that money come from? Loans. How are those loans paid off? Selling your product. What happens when you don't sell your product? I hope you get the picture.

You sit back like a couch quaterback, and think because you can beat your roomate in madden nfl 2009 that you could play in the big leagues and try to critize decisions made by professional coaches.

What do you really know about "business models?" What do you really know about being a CEO or owning a business?

quote:
Even oversees these bailouts are making me sick because you know quite a few of these companies don't deserve them.


The word bailout has been used far too often that people like you think this is a hand out. These are bailout LOANS - to be PAID BACK.

The economic conundrum with giving these loans out has nothing to do with the morality of them, and the discussion of CEO pay and uneducated claims of "faulty business models" has skewed the perception about what is really going on here.

You are right, there are some serious issues with the actions governments are taking right now in regards to this economic problem, but the issues you and many people like you raise are drops in the bucket.

quote:
handing out my money free and clear just because some CEO has their hand out.

You have clearly proven my point by stating your utter confusion.


Consolidation
By EidolWays on 12/15/2008 12:00:02 PM , Rating: 3
I'm not sure why it never seems to occur to the parties involved that if a few business disappear, then the same market that was there is now left to fewer businesses. Customers will need to buy from somewhere since DRAM demand hasn't simply disappeared. The market consolidation means that the strong(er) will survive, especially as purchases shift to them, while the weakest will fade away.

It's the same with our auto industry. While Chrysler, GM, and Ford all together have TONS of brands on the market, take one out of the running and you'll have fewer brands for customers to pick from, and those buyers have to go SOMEWHERE.




RE: Consolidation
By rudolphna on 12/15/2008 12:08:09 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah. Not really related to the article, but more related to what you said. If Ford cut down to only Ford, and Lincoln, GM cuts down to Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, and Cadillac, instead of the million and one brands they have now, got the quality on par with Honda, Toyota, and Ford, they might actually be competetive. The DRAM industry should consolidate too.. I think the HDD buisness as well. Seagate should let go of Maxtor.


RE: Consolidation
By gstrickler on 12/15/2008 4:01:14 PM , Rating: 3
Oversupply is a major part of the problem. While oversupply lowers prices and that's good for the consumer, at some point it becomes detrimental to the industry. When it becomes detrimental to the industry, supply has to be reduced or demand increased, and that frequenly means someone gets acquired or goes out of business (since anti-trust laws in many/most nations prohibit "agreeing" to reduce supply or raise prices).

If the industry is large enough or if it happens in enough big industries at once, it becomes detrimental to the entire economy. When it becomes detrimental to the economy, the government may get involved (I'm not going to debate whether or not they should in this post).

In the case of the DRAM market, several factors are at play, none of which are related to executive compensation (I haven't looked at the pay of these executives, but most Asian companies don't pay executives like many western companies do). The prior bailout of Hynix is one factor that helped create the current "glut". The failure of Vista to sell as predicted is another big factor, companies are not upgrading to new machines at the predicted rate and most are sticking with XP which doesn't need 2GB to be usable. Finally, the current (nearly global) economic downturn has drastically reduced equipment purchase/upgrade budgets.

The result is a huge glut of product, mounting losses, and a poor outlook for several years. Then, add the state of the financial markets and tightened credit availability, and you have a situation where something is bound to fail. No one wants to fail and the governments don't want their own economy to get any worse, so the companies go asking for a govermnent loan/bailout.

The US auto industry is a different situation. They made lots of money selling trucks and SUVs while largely ignoring the market for fuel efficient cars. They paid large amounts to their executives and agreed to union contracts that end up costing more than 2.5x the amount they are actually paying the workers. Then, oil prices rose for an extended period and finally spiked as the US economy was slowing. Truck and SUB sales tanked, aren't expected to recover any time soon, and will probably never get near the 50+% they were.

Now they've got over 50% of their production capacity set up to build trucks and SUVs that they have to practically give away, an excess of inventory that people don't want to buy, expensive labor, and a lineup of cars that the manufacturers (and US consumers) have been largely ignoring for the last 15 years. The US automakers are making much less (if any) money on the cars they are selling than they were on trucks and SUVs

It's not that the Big 3 US automakers aren't building good cars these days, it's that they haven't been promoting those cars much for so long that many people in the US don't know about the cars they are building. The Big 3 lived off the "easy money" of trucks and SUVs, and largely ceded the car market to others, now those choices are killing the Big 3.


RE: Consolidation
By BansheeX on 12/16/2008 2:19:27 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not going to respond to your entire post, but you mention oversupply. Oversupply isn't the problem, that's the symptom of inflation. It was oversupply of money that begot the oversupply of product/service. We get these stupid bubbles based on false projections of the future, projections we arrive at based on artificial credit expansion rooted in centralized control of money and interest rates. It's just like if a carnival comes to town, businesses hire more and expand as if it were real, and then the carnival leaves, exposing the phony demand and forcing businesses to cut jobs, sell assets, or file chapter 11. THOSE ARE THE SYMPTOMS, the DISEASE WAS THE ILLUSION THAT CAUSED THE MALINVESTMENT. I don't know how many times we libertarians have to scream this before people wake up, it's not that hard to figure out. But we still keep trying to recreate the carnival. Administering shock therapy to the hangover victim only makes things worse. Stop touching him, no more drugs, no more regulation, capital will reallocate on its own, and if we're smart, we'll flush the drugs down the toilet when we recover so it doesn't happen again.

It doesn't help that the government, the creator of the inflation, fudges the statistics on its affects to understate how much they're doing it. They exclude entire asset classes like stocks, food, energy, and homes. But inflation can go anywhere. The whole time the housing bubble was going up, CPI said inflation was miniscule. In reality, money supply was expanding rapidly and it was going somewhere that the CPI didn't include. That confusion CHANGED human behavior, made people think the growth from it was legitimate, just like the carnival. Keynesian economics is the equivalent of teaching astrology instead of astronomy. We need to boot these f**kers out and replace them with Austrians like Schiff and Paul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucDkoqwflF4


RE: Consolidation
By derwin on 12/16/2008 11:53:42 AM , Rating: 2
I wouldn't trust an Austrian economist about much farther than I could throw him. That is to say you have a point, and what we are doing now amounts so something I don't trust at all.
Again, though, I don't trust the purely free market either, as that leads to corruption and abuse. In principle its a good idea. If there wre no police, no one would ever be falsely arrested and people could go about their lifes as the pleased and be productive. However, people abuse that system (people abuse the system with strong laws now as it is) and it would only get worse with less regulation.

Not to say a balance isn't in need - not to say we are where we should be in terms of regulated vs. laissez fair capitalism, but purely to either side (communism vs. pure free market) is a bad idea.


RE: Consolidation
By gstrickler on 12/16/2008 2:45:43 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Oversupply isn't the problem, that's the symptom of inflation.

How irresponsible of you to make such a statement without pointing out that the definition of inflation you're using is very different from the common understanding of inflation. Yes, the 2nd video you linked shows the definition, but making such an apparently absurd statement without creating a context for the statement just makes you look idiotic. It's also inaccurate to say it's a "symptom" of inflation, but you could say it's a possible secondary/tertiary effect of inflation (see below)

quote:
It was oversupply of money that begot the oversupply of product/service.

In some markets, that may be correct, but it's a secondary or tertiary effect, never the primary effect. The primary effect of an oversupply of money/credit is increased consumption. Increased consumption leads to increased prices and/or increased production. It does NOT lead to "overproduction". It can lead to artificially high production to meet the increased consumption, which in turn can result in oversupply/overproduction when the consumption slows (e.g. the money/credit supply tightens). However, we're now several steps removed from "inflation".

It's not a given that reduced consumption will result in oversupply or overproduction, that happens only if the producers fail to adjust production as demand/consumption slows. That's the latest factor in the current state of the DRAM industry, and it's the reason that a "bailout" of the DRAM manufacturers is almost certainly a bad idea.

The semiconductor industry, particularly the DRAM industry has a history of overproducing due to improvements in the manufacturing technology, regardless of the available money/credit supply. The DRAM market has had an oversupply of product for most of it's history, with just a few short periods when the demand met or exceeded the supply. It's not because of the money supply, it's because the manufacturing process technology keeps improving capacity and yield and because of intense competition.

quote:
I don't know how many times we libertarians have to scream this before people wake up

Perhaps you should stop screaming it and try communicating clearly, explaining what you mean, defining your terms, and having rational discussions (as Peter Schiff did). Your post gives libertarians a bad image.

P.S. I most closely align with the Libertarians, but I don't call myself a Libertarian because most Libertarians fail to acknowledge that unregulated free market capitalism does not work. You must have some level of regulation and accountability to prevent greed, deception, and anti-competitive behavior from destroying the market. We can debate the appropriate level of regulation, but we first have to acknowledge that some regulation is necessary.


LMAO
By Spectator on 12/15/2008 2:27:34 PM , Rating: 2
So what your saying is....

All these companies saw vista was bloated and assume that we all would not notice and just throw money at ram manufacturers?

I for one find it amusing that big business thinks we are all just stupid sheep in this digital world. :P

These ppl provide us with the tools to be efficient. then complain when we use them to save money. Chukkle




RE: LMAO
By Spectator on 12/15/2008 2:53:40 PM , Rating: 2
Addendum:

If I was from the US or worked for MS. Id be more slighted by the fact that..

As a US company Microsoft's lack of attention to detail/efficiency caused this bloat in vista. Knowing that you can rely on Asia for your cheap memory.

Perhaps ONE day we may all see. "Strength makes all other values possible".

SO stop dumping vast quantities of money into foriegn products and help your own country prosper.. YOU slackers.

OR you can just go on borrowing money from other countries that you keep throwing money at. And leave it to your children to deal with.

Jaded


RE: LMAO
By surt on 12/15/2008 3:05:51 PM , Rating: 2
Heh, my children are just going to default on the loan. Foreign countries that believe they are going to see all that investment back are fools.


RE: LMAO
By derwin on 12/16/2008 11:55:32 AM , Rating: 2
Jesus, it has happened so many times in the past, why not?


RE: LMAO
By Alpha4 on 12/16/2008 1:02:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So what your saying is....
* You're *

I'm sorry, but every second post on these boards contain such errors and I fear it will only propagate if we don't correct eachother.


When is America going to wake up?
By Beenthere on 12/15/2008 4:05:08 PM , Rating: 1
I realize a small percentage of people in American understand economics and business while the rest are clueless and simply don't care. That ignorance and apathy is what is driving our economy into what will be a brutal economic depression that will spread world wide. European and Asian economies are already crumbling - as the chip industry can substantiate, because of the U.S. economic meltdown.

The FOOLS in Congress couldn't buy a clue. Furthermore after we are in a devastating Depression, the FOOLS on the Hill will still get their $169,300 per year salary while you, me and the working class takes it up the butt. Oh, wait, no the FOOLS on the Hill will be getting $174+K salary because they voted themselves a $4000 raise for '09. Are you getting a $4000 raise in '09 or losing your job?

When will America wake up?

If you want the FACTS, read the link below. If it doesn't make you Mad as Hell and make you want to contact the FOOLS in Washington to tell them to get their azzes in gear and save U.S. jobs, then you WILL pay the price while the Fat Cats in DC live high on the hog.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28239206




By Reclaimer77 on 12/15/2008 8:02:37 PM , Rating: 2
Hmmm MSNBC.com. Yeah, no thanks.

Take a pill you liberal shill. It will be ok.


RE: When is America going to wake up?
By Quiescent on 12/15/2008 11:50:32 PM , Rating: 2
When is anything coming from the news fact?


By Reclaimer77 on 12/16/2008 12:00:42 AM , Rating: 2
Especially MSNBC who has such " balanced " journalist like Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann.


By gstrickler on 12/16/2008 4:44:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you want the FACTS, read the link below.

Yes, there are facts in that article, however, there is a lot of implied info that simply isn't accurate. Since most/all of the "money" given to those corporations to build the plants came in the form of future tax abatements, there was little or no cash outlay for the state. In fact, the state ended up increasing their revenue by increasing their tax base.

Furthermore, the figures quoted are the estimated value of future tax abatements, which means that if the plant is not fully built or is shuttered/sold, those tax abatements may not apply so the actual amounts are likely to be much less. Adding together all the amounts "given" to the foreign auto manufacturers in that article totals $2Billion, to create tens of thousands of jobs. That's a far cry from the $25B-$50B the big 3 are seeking just to stay in business while cutting tens of thousands of jobs.

That's not to say I support what those states did to lure new business, but it's completely meaningless to compare those situations.

quote:
If it doesn't make you Mad as Hell and make you want to contact the FOOLS in Washington to tell them to get their azzes in gear and save U.S. jobs,

I've never been in favor of governments giving big incentives to large businesses to build facilities in their state/town (e.g. I voted against using tax money to build stadiums for pro sports teams, etc.), and it doesn't make me "Mad as Hell" that Washington is demanding that the Big 3 show they have a viable plan to return to profitability and pay back the loans before giving them a loan. Businesses that can't compete, that are managed improperly, that don't sell what the consumers want at a price they're willing to pay should get out of the business.

One big item people supporting the Big 3 bailout keep pointing to is all the US auto assembly plants that may/will close and all the assembly workers who will lose their jobs. However, for at least 10 years, the proponents of the Big 3 have been claiming that the value of the final assembly jobs is small compared to all the other jobs involved in building a car, so it doesn't matter that a "US" car is assembled in Mexico or Canada.

http://www.forbesautos.com/advice/toptens/all-amer...

http://overthehillcarpeople.com/why_we_should_buy_...

That's the story they've been using to support labelling cars built outside the US as "domestic" since 1994 and labelling cars built in the US using mostly US manufactured parts as "foreign". Now they want us to worry about all the US assembly jobs that will be lost if the Big 3 go under.

They also fail to mention that Honda and Toyota (possibly others) do a lot of their engineering in the US and therefore have quite a lot of high paying engineering jobs in the US.

The proponents will say whatever they can to "protect" their jobs. I'm all for supporting American companies and American workers, but I'm tired of the distortions and deceptions. You want my support? Start being honest.


The Hynix bailout caused this.
By the goat on 12/15/2008 1:32:04 PM , Rating: 2
More bailouts are not the answer.

The 2008 DRAM oversupply is a direct consquence of South Korea saving Hynix from bankruptcy in 2001. That bailout saved one company for a couple of years. Now five or six are in dire straights.

I am very worried about what will happen in eight to ten years if all these companies are "saved". First of all I guarantee none of them will have paid back the loans unless one or more go out of business.

Let one or two fail and the market price will correct itself. Then the remaining companies will be solvent and much leaner. Then is the natural order of things. Please let nature take its coarse.




RE: The Hynix bailout caused this.
By surt on 12/15/2008 1:42:15 PM , Rating: 4
The problem is that no country wants their DRAM business to be the one that fails. Supporting their DRAM suppliers in the short run is a FANTASTIC strategy, IF it drives another countries DRAM business into the ground. In the long run, they'll have a less competitive market, and bring in massive tax revenues. The problem is that no one is willing to lose this game of chicken. And frankly, for those of us in non-DRAM producing countries, bailouts are great, because it means taxes on other people are going to support our DRAM purchases at a discount. It's a great deal for everybody except the taxpayers in those countries.


By kattanna on 12/15/2008 11:52:00 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
The bottom line problem is simple math -- the most prevalent DRAM chips cost around $1.30 to $1.50/G-bit (DDR2, 667) to produce while they sell for $0.59.


if its costing you 2-3 times to make a product that it then sells for.. no "bailout" is gonna help you stay afloat. this is an industry that guessed wrong and over built. well, now there needs to be a correction. but a bailout will not produce that effect, only make the bleeding of money last longer.




By Quiescent on 12/15/2008 6:09:37 PM , Rating: 2
Common sense tells me that DRAM or some type of RAM/ROM is used in almost every electronic made today. Especially ones deemed "smart". I think we would see much greater problems occur if the DRAM industry collapses. I think if this industry collapse then other similiar industries will also collapse, so all the things I'm about to say that have RAM, ROM, or Flash are most likely going to end making the companies who make them crash:
RAM, Motherboards, video cards, sound cards, CD Walkmans (Yes, they still exist), Routers, modems, switches, phones, I think even DVD Drives in our computers might use this technology as well, SD cards, SSDs, my Cox Communications cable box, DirectTV, Tivo, DVR boxes, microwaves, coffee pot machines, even some TVs, MP3 players, Even cars have these in them, PDAs, GPS units, Consoles (PS3, Wii, etc), things like the Nintendo DS and the PSP, speakers, amps, even some headphones, anything with an LCD display.

We are more likely to feel a big bang effect if this business goes down. I do feel it would be more critical than the automakers failing, but I still feel that we should temporarily fix the issue with the automakers as well, and then implement laws that keep a tight bind on what a company can and can not do. How they should spend their money, if they have a big affect on the national or world economy.




Ridiculous
By Moishe on 12/16/2008 3:34:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The bottom line problem is simple math -- the most prevalent DRAM chips cost around $1.30 to $1.50/G-bit (DDR2, 667) to produce while they sell for $0.59.


If this is true then there is a fundamental flaw in the way the market is working. Prices should not fall below what it costs to make the product. Period. I'm sure someone can come along and give me some "good" reason why this happens (and I'd like to hear it), but frankly from a joe-on-the-street point of view this is stupidity.

"Hey, I make a hotdog for $1 and I sell it for $0.50 and I'm losing money."

Well, no sh*t. Doesn't take a genius to know that and it shouldn't take a genius to realize that it's an untenable position. This kind of game is just a test of who has the largest reserves and can survive giving stuff away for the longest time.

This kind of stupidity should not be bailed out.




By atlmann10 on 12/17/2008 12:37:07 AM , Rating: 2
I am not a corporate banker or CEO but doesn't this whole thing seem to undermine capitalism to the core. From what I understand of capitalism the strong and innovative companies survive. The weak and not innovative die and that's how a free market works. I'm sorry for the big 3 but I am thinking now it would have been better for them to declare bankruptcy. Then all previous contracts would be null and void (seems especially good because most of these contracts and the thinking of them as well is at least 30 or more years old). I am not saying these older auto workers should loose there pensions etc. But there should be at least a time line of some sort right. But if you own a company and you pay out big bucks for some hot performing CEO and he fails who burns the company or the taxpayer? I think if you let it all fall to the ground it would right itself about as quick as it's going to do so with all this cash the US is throwing around. And if we just let it fall we'd also have enough to keep the government and taxpayers taken care of. Rather than 1-2.5% of the population who are big wigs and management in all the companies we're bailing out.




Jets
By lagitup on 12/15/2008 11:29:50 AM , Rating: 1
Did the DRAM manufacturer's CEOs Jetpool to their respective capitals?




"Well, we didn't have anyone in line that got shot waiting for our system." -- Nintendo of America Vice President Perrin Kaplan

DailyTech Poll
Which web browser do you use on your primary personal machine? 






44 Comments












botimage
Copyright 2009 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki