DailyTech - Ford's Engine Start-Stop Tech Coming to Non-Hybrids, Will Bring 4 Percent MPG Gain

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Auto Ford's Engine Start-Stop Tech Coming to Non-Hybrids, Will Bring 4 Percent MPG Gain
Brandon Hill (Blog) - December 27, 2010 8:31 AM

51 comment(s) - last by GruntboyX.. on Jan 3 at 10:51 AM

The new C-MAX "mini" minivan will likely be one of Ford's first conventional vehicles to get start-stop

Ford's new Focus will also likely get Start-Stop

Ford will expand start-stop technology to its cars, crossovers, and SUVs

Start-stop technology is nothing new in the automotive world. Hybrid vehicles have employed the technology for over a decade in an effort to boost the efficiency of the powertrain. With start-stop technology a gasoline or diesel engine can be turned off while a vehicle is stopped at a stoplight, then immediately turned back on once the driver takes his or her foot off the brake pedal.

“Our hybrid owners tell us that start-stop is one of their favorite features,” noted Birgit Sorgenfrei, Ford's Auto Start-Stop program manager. “When the engine is off, they know they are saving fuel and reducing emissions.”

Today, Ford announced that its own start-stop technology – which can be found on the Escape Hybrid, Fusion Hybrid, and Lincoln MKZ Hybrid – will be expanded to more of its conventional cars, crossovers, and SUVs in the coming model years. Ford says that the the tech will provide an across-the-board 4 percent increase in fuel efficiency. A 10 percent increase can be achieved for the most dedicated mpg jockeys.

Even a 4 percent increase would be welcome to most drivers (and by extension, Ford). The U.S. government is implementing more strict fuel efficiency guidelines and auto manufacturers will have to achieve a 34.1 mpg fleet average by 2015.

For those that are wondering, your vehicle's A/C and heater will still function normally when the engine is stopped.

“For the driver, Ford Auto Start-Stop provides extra fuel efficiency without inconvenience, as it works completely automatically,” said Barb Samardzich, Ford VP of Powertrain engineering.

Start-Stop will join other technologies (EcoBoost, dual-clutch transmissions, etc.) that Ford is employing to increase fuel efficiency.

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Silly question

By Mitch101 on 12/27/2010 8:50:17 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
For those that are wondering, your vehicle's A/C and heater will still function normally when the engine is stopped.

Is interior heat generated different in these vehicles because mine still relies on engine coolant coming up to temp? Basically can you warm up the car in the driveway or how are you able to defrost the windows when you start your day?

RE: Silly question

By KingofL337 on 12/27/2010 8:58:55 AM , Rating: 2

It probably doesn't activate until the car upto temperature. It would be bad for the engine to keep stopping and starting below operating temperate.

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RE: Silly question

By vol7ron on 12/27/2010 4:40:46 PM , Rating: 2

Still curious about a few things:

1) Does it turn off if you apply the emergency break vs foot break vs parking break?

2) How does the efficiency kick in? A large part of the fuel inefficiency for gasoline engines is the start/stop. It takes more energy to get the motor turning than it does to keep it turning. The fewer on/offs of the engine maximizes gasoline. If you're enforcing the on/off how they improving the technology? Is it a whole new electrical system entirely?... I don't get it

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RE: Silly question

By Souka on 12/27/2010 6:30:33 PM , Rating: 2

I'll assume emergency-brake and foot-brake are the same thing. I'm sure the emergency/foot brake would result in the same on-off.

But ok, so you save 4% on gas... over the life of the car, how much more will you spend on resulting maintence? Will the starter, battery, and additional hardware/software costs negate some if nto all of these savings?

And let's not forget the personal aspect of waiting for the engine to start.

A good example I would HATE this feature is making a right-turn with busy traffic passing in front of me. Currently, I wait for an opening (with my foot on the brake) then move that foot to the accelerator when an opening presents iteslf.
With the on/off system...an opening presents itself, I move my foot from brake to gas, wait that precious second+ for the engine to start and transmission to engage, say "DAMN IT!" as I missed the opening!...slam on brake...start process over again.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexstarfire on 12/27/2010 9:38:43 PM , Rating: 2

I suggest you learn to drive a bit better then. A large part of driving well is in knowing your car. Your "problem" isn't really a problem.

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RE: Silly question

By mindless1 on 12/27/2010 11:36:01 PM , Rating: 2

A post made in ignorance. The point was, you inevitably lose some opportunities to merge into traffic when you have to wait longer for the car to get from stop to a safe speed. Knowing your car as well as possible does nothing to change that.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexstarfire on 12/28/2010 1:55:14 AM , Rating: 2

That is true, but we're only talking about a timing difference here, nothing more. It's not like that half a second, if it's even that, can't be accounted for when judging when to go.

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RE: Silly question

By Dr of crap on 12/28/2010 8:42:40 AM , Rating: 2

From your comments, I'd guess you are overly cautious and do not turn right on red.
I'm I right?
Yes the half second does come into play when you do not have any large openings to turn into.
Those half seconds are when you think, this is my chance to make it, but now the car won't let you!

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RE: Silly question

By Alexstarfire on 12/28/2010 3:34:35 PM , Rating: 2

I'll tell you what I told the other guy, learn to drive better. The only time I don't turn right at a red light is when there is a sign telling me not to. I drive a Prius and that has far worse "lag" than this/these car(s) ever will. I have no problems like you suggest I should.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexvrb on 12/28/2010 10:44:36 PM , Rating: 2

You drive a Prius? That explains the high Smug levels you emit. Yeah you can't roll out like the guys you were replying to, so I guess for you it wouldn't make a difference. All you can do is tell them they need to "l2drv nubs" meanwhile they're stuck waiting behind you.

Oh, and for the record, stop-start in a Prius is a non-issue because you've got a reasonably large electric motor which allows you to start moving immediately, even with the engine OFF. For a pure gasoline vehicle, there is an extra delay that even your Prius lacks. Is it the end of the world? No, but it is annoying as heck, like a old carb'd engine with a bad hesitation problem.

Stop-start to me belongs on hybrids - even mild hybrids. On a pure gas car it means you need a beefier starter and a beefier battery, and it adds more maintenence, and another point of failure.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexstarfire on 12/29/2010 12:54:25 AM , Rating: 2

Stereotypes aren't going to help your argument here so just leave them out next time.

This type of start-stop they are talking about sounds EXACTLY like what my dad has in his HCH. I hate the way that start-stops with a passion. It's not that it can't help fuel-economy, but it seems that some of the times it actually wastes it. The HCH has next to no delay and Ford could only improve it from there since it's as basic as it gets already.

I certainly agree with you on your last statements. I don't believe this type of system belongs on regular cars. Sounds like a lot of money for getting basically nothing in return. They'd be better off if they had a button you push to turn the engine off since it's only useful at certain times. When you're in line at a stop sign it's freakin torture cause it start-stops every 1-2 seconds.

BTW, I'm assuming you have little to no driving experience with a Prius because even though you might start moving instantly, because of the electric motor, if you're trying to get up to speed quickly you have to switch to the gas engine and there is a very noticeable delay in power. Much more so than in my father's HCH.

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RE: Silly question

By mindless1 on 12/29/2010 4:35:30 AM , Rating: 2

Your argument is retarded and biased.

If you want to wait all day to merge into traffic, fine.

If you want to merge anyway and slow everyone down, I hope someone rear ends you.

The bottom line is, you DON'T get to choose what to drive, you have to pick something appropriate for DRIVING in the area you drive in. DUH? DUH? DUH? DUH???

You are not fit to drive. Take a bus, that is why they exist.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexstarfire on 12/29/2010 1:02:05 PM , Rating: 2

"...you don't get to choose what to drive..."

Ummm, I sure picked what I drive. I'm not understanding your argument anymore. I'll just assume that you lost since you're not even making rational statements anymore. I don't wait very long to merge unless it happens to be at rush hour. And even then I'm usually the one getting pissed off at people not taking wide open spots.

And actually, I couldn't take a bus if I wanted because they don't run one in my area. I don't live in the city, I live in the suburbs. We kinda got screwed and no one here likes that.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexvrb on 12/29/2010 8:15:13 PM , Rating: 2

I felt I had to smack you at least a little, since you were being such an arse to the posters you were replying to.

Anyway, I've driven a Prius, with its Hybrid Squirrelcage Drive system. It blows, but at least if you nail the pedal it starts moving. Better than it would be if it was a small engine (Fiesta?) non-hybrid with stop-start, at least. Especially after the engine and starting system gets some wear on it and doesn't start up quite as lightning-quick anymore.

Otherwise... you basically agree with me... so why argue with people who think this is stupid/flawed and belongs on hybrids (mild and full).

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RE: Silly question

By Alexstarfire on 12/31/2010 12:01:35 AM , Rating: 2

I agreed with what you said, but not about why it should be that way. Any why argue? Because their reasoning is flawed, as is yours. These things are going to start up right when you take your foot of the brake pedal which is why I think they are mostly useless. Unless you're using two feet to drive you'll barely, if at all, notice the difference in terms of function/performance. Don't know if it's coming to the Fiesta since it doesn't specific what cars are getting it, but I don't see it being a problem there either. You could be right about it after some wear, but I haven't heard anything that would point to that being true. Not sure if these types of systems have been out long enough to see how they function long term either.

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RE: Silly question

By Strunf on 12/28/2010 10:46:34 AM , Rating: 2

Exactly, if your car needs 1 second before it can moves you just start 1 second before your normal timing, it's like when you are at the red light nothing stops you to put the gear in when you think the light is about to turn green!

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RE: Silly question

By Kurz on 12/27/2010 9:00:29 AM , Rating: 2

I am guessing the Water pump is electronic.
So it can still move the coolant through the Heater core even with the engine off.

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RE: Silly question

By Dr of crap on 12/27/2010 9:03:46 AM , Rating: 2

I say thank god if this was true.
An electronic water pump might just last longer and not need big $$$ to be replaced.
Just hoping!

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RE: Silly question

By spamreader1 on 12/27/2010 9:53:43 AM , Rating: 2

big money? the last water pump I replaced was about $60...The original lasted 240,000 miles.

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RE: Silly question

By Kurz on 12/27/2010 10:07:04 AM , Rating: 2

Its the Labor that kills most Water Pump Replacements.

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RE: Silly question

By ebakke on 12/27/2010 10:28:39 AM , Rating: 2

Capitalizing random/Important words Is my favorite morning Activity!

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RE: Silly question

By Kurz on 12/27/2010 2:44:27 PM , Rating: 2

Labor costs is expensive when it comes to water pump replacements. You often have to remove major engine componets to get to it.

Lol sorry... I was typing and talking on the phone when I wrote up the orginal.

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RE: Silly question

By ebakke on 12/27/2010 2:57:46 PM , Rating: 2

Sorry for being a douche. My former coworkers couldn't distinguish between proper nouns and words they felt ought to be capitalized, because... well... they should! Or something like that. I could never figure out what their rationale was.

After viewing about 2000 presentations/emails/IMs/etc with pseudo-random capitalization, it became a pet peeve of mine. Again, sorry for being the grammar Nazi.

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RE: Silly question

By Dr of crap on 12/27/2010 10:30:56 AM , Rating: 2

The three previous cars had the pump behind the timing chain, so it wasn't smething I wanted to do myself.

Yea, if you have an old V8, the water pump was a breeze to replace. I did myself no problems.

But you know with the car engineers now, they make everything so you can't work on them. On my current car I needed a new thermostat. ( I know they never go bad, but this one did. ) Well, I find out the thermostat on the passenger side of the engine, and you need to remove the exhaust manifold to get at it! I wasn't even going to attempt that!
So labor included, yea it costs a lot.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexvrb on 12/28/2010 10:36:57 PM , Rating: 2

There's no guarantee that an electric water pump will last THAT much longer than a well-designed, properly sealed water pump (assuming coolant maintenence is performed as needed). Second, the actual part will cost more than a conventional water pump. Third, there's STILL no guarantee that it will be easy to get to. On a tranverse mounted engine they will probably still cram it somewhere annoying.

All the vehicles I have owned have had conventional water pumps which were reliable and easy to change. However, I still like electric pumps better overall. I just wanted to point out that they aren't the holy grail. Their real advantages to me are minor gains in fuel efficiency, ability to operate with the engine off (this part is of debatable usefulness), and the extra bit of horsepower they free up.

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RE: Silly question

By Dr of crap on 12/27/2010 9:00:38 AM , Rating: 1

That statement is wrong!

The AC is run by the engine.
So, unless Ford has some NEW way of making this work, electric cooling, the engine needs to be running for the AC to function.

Second, yes the heat comes from the hot coolant. If the car is stopped there could be a small amount of heat that could be taken out of the heater core when the engine is off, but for the most part it is like the AC and needs the engine running to keep the heat flowing.

So we need A LOT MORE info about how the heat and AC will STILL work when the engine is off!

As they both are set up now, they NEED the engine to be turning for them to work.

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RE: Silly question

By icrf on 12/27/2010 9:50:48 AM , Rating: 2

I imagine it's quite simple. Instead of your AC compressor and water pump being belt-driven off the engine, they'll be driven electronically instead, so they can operate with the engine off. There should be enough residual heat in the engine/coolant that simply circulating what's left through the heater core will allow enough into the passenger compartment. Between the compressor and electric fan, that'll keep cooling covered well, too.

The power steering pump was always belt-driven, but the one in my Mazda 3 is electric, so there's precedent. The only accessory that can't be driven electrically is, obviously, the alternator. The rest just did it for convenience.

It mostly just means it'll stress the battery more. I wonder if a conventional battery is sufficient, or if it will need a larger or second battery? Water pump probably isn't too bad, but AC compressor could definitely suck some juice. I'd guess it'd monitor the battery and restart the engine if got too low.

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RE: Silly question

By GTVic on 12/27/2010 2:23:57 PM , Rating: 2

That would be "electrically" not "electronically" and many modern cars have been using electric motors for the compressor and the power steering for a couple of years.

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RE: Silly question

By Alexvrb on 12/28/2010 10:58:13 PM , Rating: 2

Yeah but in a Hybrid it is cake, because you have a large high voltage battery to run whatever electrical components you want. In a pure gas auto (withOUT stop-start), the engine is always running, so it doesn't matter if the power steering pump, water pump, or any accessories are electric - because the engine is running. So again, cake.

However, in a stop-start pure gas vehicle, the A/C compressor can still run, if it is an electric compressor, but what is going to be its power source? The main 12V starting battery? A secondary 12V battery? Both? 24V battery(ies)? Plus you're still running the blower motor, stereo, etc, - all this adds up.

I am not saying it can't be done. All I am saying is that no matter how you slice it, this is less ideal than a Hybrid which already has a big NiMH/Li-ion battery at its disposal. My guess is that the A/C compressor and blower run at a reduced capacity with the engine off, to reduce the load. But will Ford stick with standard 6-cell 12V batteries, or move up to 24V batteries?

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RE: Silly question

By ebakke on 12/27/2010 10:04:03 AM , Rating: 2

My understanding is that the brake pedal is the instigator of the engine shutting off/ turning back on. So if your car is warming up in the driveway, the brake pedal is not depressed, and therefor the engine should be running.

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RE: Silly question

By Mitch101 on 12/27/2010 12:02:44 PM , Rating: 2

I think I'm having a face palm moment.

I'm guessing the AC compressor is motorized then.

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RE: Silly question

By marvdmartian on 12/27/2010 2:35:35 PM , Rating: 1

My only question is, will this feature have the ability to be disabled by the customer, if they so wish? Otherwise, it's likely that Ford could LOSE sales, to older/less trusting folks, that don't want their engine turning on and off.

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RE: Silly question

By ebakke on 12/28/2010 10:22:09 AM , Rating: 2

If they have the option of disabling it, I'd be the mileage improvements wouldn't towards their mandated fuel efficiency numbers. If you dislike technologies like this, your frustration should be directed at the politicians, not at Ford.

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Not for me

By Astral Abyss on 12/27/2010 10:49:24 AM , Rating: 1

I think I'll pass on this feature for now.

My reasons are:

1) We've been told all our lives that starting the engine is the hardest on it, but now it's ok because we're saving 4% more fuel.

2) A hybrid is made to run off the battery part of the time, but a conventional battery running my car everytime I hit the brakes sounds really hard on the battery and electrical system. Southern Arizona (or any State with extreme temps hot or cold) is not the best environment to be start/stopping your engine. With 110-115F summer temps, A/C running full blast, engine compartment heat cooking the battery, and every other component already stressed with excessive heat, I don't think I want that extra stress on my system. I can just imagine the inside of my car getting hot everytime I get to a stoplight due to the A/C being constrained.

3) Sure, maybe some folks like the lurching and shuddering of the start/stop feature of cars like the Prius (my employer bought some for our fleet so I have to drive them), but I'm not sold on having my engine shut-off with no way to move out of traffic if it doesn't come on right away since I'll have no electric motor to propel me. If you're driving in town with tons of traffic, like me, and you have 3-4 seconds to pull into a lane and get moving or wait another 30 seconds for another 3-4 second window and you just aren't sure if your motor is going to come on and give you the power you need, I'll pass.

4) There's got to be better ways to save 4% of fuel besides resorting to gimmicky features like this.

RE: Not for me

By twhittet on 12/27/2010 11:53:28 AM , Rating: 2

I'm not sure it's too "gimmicky" - it has been used successfully in quite a few vehicles already.

That being said, I would need to test drive a vehicle for a while and learn more about it before trusting it. There are quite questions that need to be well answered before many people would be convinced.

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RE: Not for me

By Astral Abyss on 12/27/2010 1:02:07 PM , Rating: 2

You're right, I don't think gimmicky is the best word here. Maybe fashionable or something similar. It hasn't really been proven to work effectively in a standard gasoline engine driven vehicle.

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RE: Not for me

By chaos386 on 12/27/2010 2:27:06 PM , Rating: 2

I drove a rented 318i station wagon that had start-stop (with a manual transmission, no less!), and it worked flawlessly. It worked by shutting off the engine when you had it in neutral with the clutch out, and restarted it once you depressed the clutch. It was pretty fast, too: the engine was up and running by the time the clutch pedal had hit the floor, so it didn't make moving from a stop any slower than in a normal car.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but...

By Hulk on 12/27/2010 9:05:14 AM , Rating: 2

AC and heat would require and electric driven compressor for the former and an electric water pump to circulate hot engine coolant for the latter.

An electric water pump wouldn't require too much wattage, but the AC compressor would. How long can a standard automotive battery run such a compressor before it begins to damage the cell chemistry and impede car starting, which would lead to additional battery degradation?

Would be nice to see "normal" cars moving to high capacity and lighter Li-Ion batteries and higher voltage and more efficient electrical systems. Of course as with everything else this new technology would be more expensive.

RE: Correct me if I'm wrong but...

By chromatix on 12/27/2010 9:53:56 AM , Rating: 2

A lead-acid battery, as used in cars, usually has a very high peak current which can only be supplied for a short time (for starting the engine), but it also has a deep reserve which can be tapped more gradually. Running the aircon from that reserve for a few minutes should be fine without impeding the ability to restart the engine.

Of course it's entirely likely that Ford will fit a bigger or a slightly different kind of battery to account for the different usage pattern.

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RE: Correct me if I'm wrong but...

By Spuke on 12/27/2010 4:10:21 PM , Rating: 2

My guess is a deep cycle/starting battery that you can already buy currently like this:

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rvdeepcyclebatter...

These are more expensive than typical car batteries though but can take repeated abuse.

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2006 Honda Hybrid

By Darkk on 12/27/2010 12:28:41 PM , Rating: 2

When I was driving around in my girlfriend's 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid it too stop and start the engine whenever the car isn't moving and brake applied. I was nervous at first but seems to work out just fine.

Soon as the brake is released the engine starts right up so there is really no delay in getting the car moving again.

Just you have to change your preception on how the car behaves at stop lights.

RE: 2006 Honda Hybrid

By Dr of crap on 12/27/2010 12:31:23 PM , Rating: 2

Yea, if it's a hybrid the restart is to be able to drive away with the battery, not the gas engine. So I would see no delay there, or problem there.

But if the gas engine has to restart, now you've got delay and problems. I can just see cars behind this one getting mad and honking because the Ford drives like a old grandma driver with it's start stop feature!

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RE: 2006 Honda Hybrid

By Strunf on 12/28/2010 10:40:34 AM , Rating: 2

You probably are the worst kind of the driver... seriously getting mad and honking cause of a second, if someone would do that to me I would be driving as slowly as possible, that's really the best way I found to piss off some road pricks!

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You will pay dearly...

By Beenthere on 12/27/10, Rating: 0

RE: You will pay dearly...

By twhittet on 12/27/2010 11:49:49 AM , Rating: 2

Um....what? Will I pay dearly with a more expensive vehicle? With my blood sweat and tears? My soul? I really have no idea what point you're trying to make.

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RE: You will pay dearly...

By Dr of crap on 12/27/2010 12:39:11 PM , Rating: 1

PAY DEARLY translation for the ones that don't get it -
You think this tech will be cheap?

And do you know what 4% is - about 1-2 mpg.
So the cost to save 1-2mpg will be $$$$.

NOT WORTH IT!

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RE: You will pay dearly...

By Astral Abyss on 12/27/2010 2:03:20 PM , Rating: 2

This is basically just a way for the car manufacturers to help meet the federal mandate on average gas milage for their fleet without adding any real value or innovation to the vehicles.

Maybe next they'll design openings in the floor boards where you and your passengers can drop their feet to the ground and Flinstone it to save on gas.

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By rstrohkirch on 12/27/2010 12:17:33 PM , Rating: 2

So we're looking at around a 1mpg difference on average?

New reason not to buy a ford.

By mindless1 on 12/27/2010 11:41:09 PM , Rating: 2

I do not want this crap, please keep cars inexpensive to purchase and maintain.

I'd much rather drive 4% less, or a dozen other things instead.

Well come to 2005?

By Ghost42 on 12/27/2010 11:51:42 PM , Rating: 2

GMC had this as an option on their Sierra pickup as early as 2005. It offered a 10% increase is fuel mileage, and as an added bonus the truck also came with 4 120v 20amp electrical outlets for running equipment off of at a job site. The system basically shut off the Gas engine when the brakes were applied and the vehicle was moving below 13mph.

Cheesy gimmick with no real world value

By GruntboyX on 1/3/2011 10:51:49 AM , Rating: 2

I doubt it provides any real world value to the driver, Its more of a way to trick the EPA test so there average fuel economy is better.

it also has more to do with Ford, using their oneford platform. I believe start stop is mandated in Europe. Thus they are simply using the technology that is already there and bringing it stateside.

Having a fusion, the amount of time it takes to start the care has me skeptical. My bigger concern is not the air-conditioning or heating, as this is a minor annoyance. Most break systems are vacuum assist. If the Engine is off while you are coasting, then if you "pump" the break to adjust for an obstacle, you could have a rude awakening.

However, lets remember Europe has successfully used the technology for years. So it is not a radically new concept. I just ask for away to disable it. I have no use for it being, that I am such a rural driver. It provides no real world impact for me.