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Elon Musk says that drive motor issues could have been resolved with a $3 part

The Tesla Motors Model S may be the best car Consumer Reports has even tested, scoring 99 out of 100 possible points, but that doesn’t mean that Tesla’s first “clean slate” automobile is free from problems. Over the course of 15,743 miles of ownership, Consumer Reports reported that it encountered a number of small problems with the vehicle, but nothing too alarming. And all of the issues with the vehicle were fixed under warranty.
 
Edmunds and Motor Trend, however, weren’t as fortunate. Edmunds’ long-term test vehicle -- albeit a pre-production model -- had its drive unit (electric motor, inverter, gearbox) replaced three times over the course of 30,000 miles in addition to a laundry list of other problems. Over the course of its long-term test of a Model S P85+, Motor Trend also had a drive unit replaced under warranty.
 
Some owners on the official Tesla Motors forum faired even worse. “I’m on my 5th drive train right at 12,000 miles,” reported user basf_audio. “Tesla is doing a buyback for me and I'm okay with that, even though everything that I've had serviced is fixed and working properly.”


Tesla Model S
 
During the investor call following its Q2 earnings report, Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk acknowledged the drive unit “problem,” but went on to detail that the issue wasn’t actually with the drive units in the vehicles that received replacements.
 
Musk explains:
 
And we had one particular case where there was vibration, and it was due to -- it was due to the -- a cable detaching itself and touching the drive unit assembly and causing vibration to be transmitted to the body of the car…
 
If you replace the drive unit, you temporarily tuck the cable back and think the problem was solved and it was -- but then the cable would vibrate itself down and transmit the energy. So I mean that, you know, the cable thing takes us like -- it's nothing to fix it. It's like, virtually, it's like a $3 cable tied to solve it.
 
With respect to the Edmunds car needing three drive unit replacements, Musk goes on, stating:
 
The service team was ultra proactive with the Edmunds car. So they would -- they were doing their best to make Edmunds happy, and I think unfortunately that resulted in them changing things up, just on the off-chance something might go wrong.
 
So it appears that these expensive replacements could have been avoided with a simple cable tie, but until Tesla was able to diagnose the problem correctly, it went to the extreme by replacing the entire unit [reportedly $15,000 each].


Model S drive unit [bottom center]
 
In an effort to assure customers that it is committed to vehicle quality, and that it stands behind robustness of its EV platform, Musk announced late last week that Tesla is extending the powertrain warranty of the 85 kWh Model S to 8 years and unlimited miles (which now matches the warranty on the battery). The warranty extension is retroactive to every Model S sedan ever built.
 
Building on his belief that EVs are superior to gasoline/diesel-powered vehicles, Musk goes on to state in a blog post:
 
In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.
 
To investors in Tesla, I must acknowledge that this will have a moderately negative effect on Tesla earnings in the short term, as our warranty reserves will necessarily have to increase above current levels. This is amplified by the fact that we are doing so retroactively, not just for new customers. However, by doing the right thing for Tesla vehicle owners at this early stage of our company, I am confident that it will work out well in the long term.
 
Elon Musk and the Tesla crew are currently gearing up for production of the Model X crossover which will offer additional passenger/cargo space, all-wheel-drive (via dual drive units), and innovative “Falcon” doors. The entry-level Model III will make its first public appearance in 2016, with deliveries starting in 2017.

Sources: Consumer Reports, Motor Trend, Edmunds, Seeking Alpha [Earnings Call Transcript]





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Need better moderation
By Kaisha on 8/19/2014 7:31:54 AM , Rating: 4
As someone who rarely if every posts, but enjoys reading the usually interesting debate... Someone really needs to moderate reclaimer. This guy is nothing but a troll. Every single Tesla post is nothing but an excuse for him to rant. This is not healthy debate or interesting discourse, its just one nutcase preaching endlessly from his soap box. Having an opposing opinion is fine, but constantly belittling and denigrating others who hold a differing opinion, changing and twisting facts to suit your side, occasionally out-right lying. That is not debate or discourse, that's just trolling...




RE: Need better moderation
By Reclaimer77 on 8/19/14, Rating: -1
RE: Need better moderation
By Lord 666 on 8/19/2014 8:19:48 AM , Rating: 3
Do you feel bullied? Welcome to the Internet. Its ironic in your call for someone to be censored the use of name calling. Do you feel vindicated now?

Maybe its an old-school vs. new school approach, but the opinion shared within the comments appear divided by age. As previously noted by Rec within a previous diesel thread, it seems there is a downward trend of intelligent debate with the majority of DT replies.

What team are you on; the Kool-Aid Tesla club who sings happy songs of ignorance or one of maturity seeing Telsa's approach of replacing entire drive units a bit extreme and possibly poorly executed from a technical perspective? Simply connecting the computer to diagnostic tools should have quickly ruled out defect.

Maybe it was the lack of ICE noise that made the noise/vibration much worse, but the person(s) who finally figured out the root cause being a cable deserves a promotion as it saved Tesla a fortune and the others should be terminated for lack of automotive troubleshooting skills.

I for one am glad of the honest reporting on a Tesla service issue not widely shared.


RE: Need better moderation
By Richard875yh5 on 8/22/2014 3:40:10 PM , Rating: 2
Elon Musk is the biggest BS'er in the auto industry. I wouldn't believe a word he says. He wants the hype to keep going, but sooner or later reality will set in.


RE: Need better moderation
By HoosierEngineer5 on 8/19/2014 8:44:18 AM , Rating: 2
I have never found Reclaimer77's comments to fall to the level of trolling. For example, his claim that it shouldn't take three swaps of the power train to find the problem could be refuted by argument (i.e. new car, untested technology, rich-boy's toy). Then, you can state that Tesla is doing right by customers by extending the warranty. They may have egg on their faces, but as long as they learn.

Sometimes, it's nice to read conflicting (well-reasoned) viewpoints so you can make up your own mind.


RE: Need better moderation
By Kaisha on 8/19/14, Rating: 0
RE: Need better moderation
By KoolAidMan1 on 8/19/2014 10:39:42 PM , Rating: 1
You've described his posting style in every subject.

I've seen all kinda of stupidity on the internet, I've seen stupidity here on DT rivaled only by Youtube comments, and reclaimer is in a league of his own.

Waste of oxygen


Question
By FITCamaro on 8/18/2014 11:17:03 AM , Rating: 2
Does that pictured unit include the motor, inverter, and gearbox? Or just the motor?




RE: Question
By ipay on 8/18/2014 11:23:51 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Question
By acer905 on 8/18/2014 12:35:55 PM , Rating: 5
Yup, inverter on one side, motor on the other, gearbox in the middle. A full swap can be done in less than an hour with a hanfull of tools. The customer can be on their way and they can fix the drive unit on a bench, which was the design intent all along.


Early production vehicle?
By coburn_c on 8/18/2014 7:53:29 PM , Rating: 3
They replaced the entire drive train, so playing it off as being an early model doesn't really hold for the second two replacements does it? Don't forget they also had to replace the battery pack in the first year.. and that the cause for 5 of the service visits listed on edmunds.com was "roadside breakdown"

A $100,000+ car breaking down on the side of the road five times in the first year? That's the real outrage.




By foxalopex on 8/20/2014 10:53:09 AM , Rating: 2
I'm in my second year of owning a Volt and not one single problem to speak of. Judging from how few problems there are in the Volt forum, I would say GM properly spent years testing the Volt to ensure that it would work properly in almost all conditions. It's why the Volt has such high customer satisfaction ratings. It literally works almost perfectly.

Telsa is a smaller company. I suspect they don't have the time to do that sort of detailed testing and so problems could crop up.

Still, you do have to give Telsa credit. They care about their vehicles being "perfect" and will try to fix whatever they can no matter how minnor. I mean how many dealerships would offer you a new *engine* if you complained your gas powered vehicle sounds a little louder than usual. :) You'd probably be laughed off the lot.




I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By Vertigo2000 on 8/18/2014 11:25:29 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, because Japanese brands NEVER have mechanical problems or recalls on their vehicles.

Seriously, let this play out a little longer and see if they actually fix the problem. It's all under warranty so all the rick people who bought these will just have to drive their BMW's while the Tesla is in the shop. It's such an inconvenience. lol

Given how much benefit of the doubt GM has been given over the years, I think Elon and Tesla should get some too.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 8/18/2014 11:43:32 AM , Rating: 4
But in this case, the "drive unit failures" weren't actual problems with the unit. It was a misdiagnosed problem that resulted in the entire drive unit being replaced. It was a loose cable [outside the drive unit] transmitting harsh vibrations to the chassis.

That to me is different than the actual drive unit itself having a mechanical problem.

What I find troubling is that they replaced so many of these expensive drive units before they realized that the problem related to a simple $3 cable tie.

And another thing, this powertrain warranty (as Musk stated) should have been there from the start. If you're so confident in the superiority of your product, well then you should stand behind it unconditionally. Heck, even Hyundai come with a 10-year/100,000 mile powertrain warranty.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 8/18/2014 12:11:53 PM , Rating: 2
Did you not read the rest of my post? I agree with you.

I was just stating [in the first part of my post] that it wasn't a matter of the actual drive unit crapping itself.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By acer905 on 8/18/2014 12:40:41 PM , Rating: 1
To be fair, think of the situation with two things in mind. 1) The assumption that there is an issue with the drive unit.
2) It is the policy to get the customer on their way as fast as reasonable, so as to not inconvenience them.

Is it that unbelieveable that with those two things in mind, the service center would just spend the hour to swap the unit and get the customer on their merry way, then run full diagnostics on the unit while it is accessable on a bench?


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By Jereb on 8/18/2014 9:01:58 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like they did the right thing to me.
Had a vibration in the vehicle, could only be in the drive assembly. Tests without removing the drive assembly would confirm that, replaced the unit, problem solved.
Post tests on the motor would show no misalignment, they would scratch there head for a while. Then when it came back in a few times they begin noticing the cable.

Intermittent problems like that are hard to identify man.


RE: I don't care
By weaponzero on 8/18/2014 1:55:15 PM , Rating: 2
We know they are not lying based on their warranty costs which are public.

The service center does not have the tools at this point to work on the drivetrain, so they right now do a swap to expedite the process and then send it in for analyses.

Franchised dealerships is not the way to go as it would increase costs. Why would you want to make something that costs a few dollars cost 100X more?


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 12:14:02 PM , Rating: 2
Not flawless, but definitely NOT backing away from their support/belief in their products.

You should at least give Musk some level credit on how they have handled this issue.

Just look at Chrysler and their issue with the Dodge Darts.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 12:36:07 PM , Rating: 3
I'd be a little miffed myself to be honest. I'd be even more miffed if I found out it was a $3 part that failed. Why overdo things? They're gonna put themselves out of business if they keep approaching problems in this manner.


RE: I don't care
By ihateu3 on 8/18/2014 5:01:29 PM , Rating: 1
I am with you on your earlier comment "stick to Japanese cars", as American and German "badged" cars are truly junk.

However, for the first time since the big 3 pushed or bought out all the smaller American vehicle manufacturers in the 30's (think Packard), America is building a fantastic car again.

Tesla has made huge strides in the automotive world, and has not only set records, but has also set the bar very high. It did all this in a country where it is virtually impossible to start a new car company, let alone an electric car.

For all their achievements that they have made, honestly I would expect many more problems than they have already had! They have went from nothing, to trying to catch up with car manufacturers that had 100+ years of experience in this field, and did so with relatively few problems.

Most people expect a new car company to have major issues in their initial offerings. Tesla has had very few issues, has dealt with it and kept its customers happy, and I condone any business for doing so, let alone a new start up.


RE: I don't care
By Lord 666 on 8/19/2014 12:54:44 AM , Rating: 2
My VW is still trouble free at 33k. My mothers battery just died on the JSW at 73k. In all honesty, having second thoughts about picking up a new Tesla X, but down right scared about a used S. Imagine reading the service records telling the tales of the Tesla techs playing with their 100k Lego set.


RE: I don't care
By skildner on 8/19/2014 2:03:07 PM , Rating: 2
You keep calling this a $100,000 car. It is currently priced at $71,070, which does not include a federal rebate of $7,500 and a possible state rebate on top of that. It should be compared to vehicles in the mid-$60,000 range, not $100,000 range as you keep stating.

How about we compare it to an $80,000 car just for fun. The 2012 Porsche 911. Here is the recall:

quote:
Recall Date:
MAR 21, 2012
Model Affected:
2012 Porsche 911

Summary:
PORSCHE IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2012 911 CARRERA S VEHICLES MANUFACTURED FROM OCTOBER 26, 2011, THROUGH JANUARY 24, 2012. INTERFERENCE BETWEEN A COOLANT LINE AND A FUEL LINE MAY CAUSE THE FUEL LINE TO BECOME DISCONNECTED AT THE QUICK CONNECTOR.

Consequences:
IF THE FUEL LINE BECOMES DISCONNECTED, A FUEL LEAK MAY OCCUR. A FUEL LEAK COULD LEAD TO THE ENGINE MISFIRING OR STALLING, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH. A FUEL LEAK IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE COULD INCREASE THE RISK OF A FIRE.


Even comparing apples to apples does not get you the result you are looking for Mr. Reclaimer. Give it a rest already, everyone knows you have it out for Tesla for some reason.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/19/14, Rating: 0
RE: I don't care
By Andrwken on 8/19/2014 1:33:08 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
But in this case, the "drive unit failures" weren't actual problems with the unit.


Say Musk, but yet the problems were logged under "roadside breakdown" by one magazine. Do you park your car and have it towed due to a resonating "vibration". You drive to the dealer and have it looked at.

Something doesn't add up to me,,,


RE: I don't care
By Richard875yh5 on 8/22/2014 3:45:55 PM , Rating: 2
Do you really believe they change the whole $15,000 unit when the problem was only a tie unit at fault? Anyone who believes that is gullible


RE: I don't care
By NaperJ on 8/18/2014 11:47:36 AM , Rating: 3
Where did you get the idea that the drive train was failing? If you read the article, the problem was that excess vibration was felt in the passenger compartment, and the drive train was replaced because that appeared to fix the problem. But the real problem was that a cable was not adequately attached, vibrations made part of the cable to disconnect from where it was attached, and drive vibrations. Eventually, that might have caused the cable to wear, but that was not the immediate problem.

And, by the way, first year electrical engineers students don't know anything, so they would not have noticed this mistake. My daughter is a rising senior electrical engineer, and she only starting learning about design for manufacturing at her internship this summer.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By NovoRei on 8/18/2014 12:28:52 PM , Rating: 2
Whoa, hold your horses...

Bad QC? What the butt has to do with the pants? Most of the problem are noise/vibration related which kicks the self protection.

Replacing the drivetrain without bothering? Kenneth summarizes the most relevant points here.

And besides, that replacement is much more drop-in/out than regular vehicles (exception to some land rovers).



RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 12:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And besides, that replacement is much more drop-in/out than regular vehicles (exception to some land rovers).
Irrelevant. So you would be ok if a $15,000 part was replaced 3 TIMES in such a short amount of time? That's Rec's whole point. Or are you just disagreeing with Rec because you don't want to agree with him?


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/14, Rating: 0
RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 2:50:43 PM , Rating: 3
The customers don't care about replacing the drive-train or nailing the issue down to a $3.00 part, just as long as as they are back on the road in a short amount of time and at zero additional cost to them.

Tesla's goal in replacing the entire drive-train was to get the customer was back on the road ASAP. They (Tesla techs) would troubleshoot the pulled drive-train after the customer was well on their way, instead of waiting in the reception area for hours.

Some people just can't see the forest for the trees.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: -1
RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 3:38:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some people just can't see the forest for the trees.
Oh really? I can't see the forest for the trees on THREE replacements of a $15,000 part in 30,000 miles when the real problem is a $3 part?? You actually just said I can't see the forest for the trees. Am I on Punked?

quote:
The customers don't care about replacing the drive-train or nailing the issue down to a $3.00 part
Customers DO care about having a brand new, $100,000 car in the shop multiple times in 30,000 miles. If you think they don't, you live on a different planet than I do. If GM or Toyota did that to you, would you be ok with that? Of course not. You'd bring out the pitchfork. You're FULL OF SH!T if you say otherwise.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/14, Rating: 0
RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 7:23:40 PM , Rating: 2
You forgot one of the most important parts of my point

quote:
at zero additional cost to them.


The component swaps cost every customer a total of ....what for it.......$0.00. Yep, Tesla charged a total of $0.00 for those issues.

LOL.

You guys really don't get it.

You are more pissed than people that actually paid 100,000 for the cars. You have zero skin in the game.

How many Tesla's have been turned back in by dissatisfied customers?

That's the REAL proof.

Your rants/whining is meaningless IMO.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 7:43:44 PM , Rating: 2
Wait for it..

No edit on this site.


RE: I don't care
By PitViper007 on 8/20/2014 3:44:18 PM , Rating: 2
I wasn't going to chime in here but I will now. The cost in this case is irrelevant. You still have to factor in the inconvenience of having to take the time to take the vehicle in to be worked on. One time, ok.....Two times? hmmm....Three? Now it's getting a bit ridiculous. As someone who has had to do that with a vehicle, one that is well BELOW the cost of this EV, it's irritating. Even more so when you keep taking it in for the SAME PROBLEM and it doesn't really get fixed. So while I agree that it is a new company, new car, new design etc, replacing the drivetrain 3 times before realizing it could really be fixed with a wire tie, it just shows that someone (many someones????) wasn't thinking about the problem and just threw money at it.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 12:45:20 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Replacing the drivetrain without bothering? Kenneth summarizes the most relevant points here.


Kenneth is just making sh*t up.

In Musk's own words, they were replacing these units because they did NOT know what the real problem was. Not because they were doing it to be more convenient or "easier" to the owner.

But why let facts get in the way.


RE: I don't care
By Vertigo2000 on 8/18/2014 12:12:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So if your Tesla isn't catching on fire and exploding for no reason, the entire drive-assembly is failing before the car is even broken in.

If we want to follow that line of logic through with every vehicle that has ever been made, then we should just go back to riding horses.

Stop hyperbolizing! It's ridiculous and only makes you look like Chicken Little.


RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/14, Rating: 0
RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 2:53:29 PM , Rating: 2
Were not excusing Tesla.

Just not making a mountain out of a mole hill like You and 77.

Take a chill pill.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 3:15:20 PM , Rating: 1
Fine you tell me. How much criticism, if ANY, do you think this earns Tesla?

Seems you think the answer is "none", which puts you squarely in the Homer Fanboi camp.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 7:42:06 PM , Rating: 2
It's a new model and new technology.

People who don't understand that, should not buy new innovative products until the third-generation. That provides sufficient time for any bugs to be ironed out. The Tesla S is basically a second-gen car following the coupe.

Tesla made big efforts to resolve the issue for each customer by replacing the bulk of the components to resolve the issue for the customer quickly. They valued the customers time more than what it was costing the company in parts.

Now the issue has been realized and will be addressed with all S Models.

Tesla actively chose NOT to waste customers time while they spent hours/days troubleshooting the issue. Some things take time to figure out. Even the simplest of things can keep a vehicle from operating at 100%

There are ALWAYS issues with new products. This is NOT a perfect world, but Tesla made great efforts to minimize the impact/inconvenience for their customers.

Tesla made no attempt to hide the issue and now they know exactly what the cause was and it's great that it came down to a simple zip-tie and nothing significant that would endanger people riding in Tesla S models on the road today.

I'd say they came out pretty well and zero deaths to boot.

In life, some people see the glass as half-full and others see it as half-empty. It's just a fact.


RE: I don't care
By Jereb on 8/18/2014 9:12:30 PM , Rating: 2
I disagree about the new technology part. Electric motors and inverters are vastly understood devices. There are not new and innovative ways to speed control an electric motor.
How efficiently you can do this however....

Honestly, we have more problems with new Toyota's where I work. I live in a mining area where we are among the first to get the new models in the country. And yeah, they take forever to fix the issues that come up. But it's because they don't have a lot of experience with what goes wrong with these particular vehicles.

Reclaimer, you are correct to assume that you can do a lot of electrical tests to determine the health of an inverter and electric motor, but a loose cable is pretty tricky unless you physically see it.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/19/2014 1:58:22 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
In life, some people see the glass as half-full and others see it as half-empty. It's just a fact.


More pretentious bullsh*t to make you appear more insightful than you ever really could be. More hypocrisy too.

You've never complimented me on many of my fine attributes. Why so glass-empty?? You just focus on the "bad"!


RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 4:22:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just not making a mountain out of a mole hill like You and 77
I'm building the mountain because I know EVERYONE here would do the same if GM or Toyota had a similar issues. There would be no excuses for them and Tesla deserves no excuses either.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 7:28:05 PM , Rating: 3
LOL.

But of course your wrong.

assuming

Your ASS U MING you are speaking for 'EVERYONE' here and your obviously not.

Speak for yourself. Tell us you feel Tesla dropped the ball or what-ever. Fine, But don't think you speak for others.

That's just delusional.


RE: I don't care
By Samus on 8/18/2014 12:49:10 PM , Rating: 2
My mom has been through 2 transmissions on her 4 year old camry. Both covered under warranty. Since both were what appeared to be valve body failures (although Toyota said they were electronic problems) I'm just glad they finally installed a new factory transmission after the second failure instead of having someone at the dealership attempt the very intricate procedure of repairing a slushbox.

A friend has had his Nissan Murano in the shop so many times they are finally buying the vehicle back at fair market value. He's had his MAF replaced 3 times, ECU replaced 3 times, starter replaced twice, drivers seat replaced twice (look this up, its ridiculous, all the seat frames crack and it still haven't been recalled.) Basically they're pulling a Tesla and replacing things that don't need to be replaced to try and resolve a problem. His car constantly stalls. Nobody can figure it out. It always happens at a stop. Mid-2000 Nissan Sentra's had this issue and it turned out to be grounding/padding of the ECU, but this Murano they can't figure out.

Another friend is on his 3rd engine in his Mazdaspeed 3 after just 2 years. Mazda denied warranty coverage on the second one because he didn't have records of oil changes (he changed the oil himself, Mobil1 no less) even though the wastegate was malfunctioning and overboosting the engine eventually causing a valve to fail; not oil related failure. Rebuild cost him $3000, will be his last Mazda for sure.

So yes, all vehicles, especially Japanese vehicles, have their share of problems. What's important is the manufacture stand by it. A lot of the time, from what I've read (and fear) Mazda does NOT stand behind major warranty claims. This bothers me because I now own and drive a Mazda CX-5, and although it's been fairly reliable (two windshield replacements in 8 months...) I do plan on changing my own oil and expect to keep my warranty by doing so if I keep records and use approved weight/type oil.

I've even read manufactures voiding warranties on vehicles people install "rims" on because of the added stress to the suspension, brakes, engine/transmission, and additional frame vibration/shock. Although there is some truth to this, it has gotten carried away. Mazda threatened to void my warranty if I put a winter set of tires on my vehicles, but later redacted and said as long as I use the approved sizes, load rating, etc, which is reasonable in my opinion. But they don't have to use scare tactics on people who talk about "customizing" their vehicles.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 1:15:45 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
So yes, all vehicles, especially Japanese vehicles, have their share of problems.


Based on your three myopic stories that we all just have to assume are factual??


RE: I don't care
By ritualm on 8/18/2014 1:55:05 PM , Rating: 1
Given your posting history re: Tesla, I'm willing to give Samus' and Kenneth's posts far more weight than anything from yours truly.

In before your continued deluge of strawman attacks as if the world's about to end in the next sixty seconds...


RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 2:20:32 PM , Rating: 2
Must be nice to have your own fan club Rec. LOL!


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 2:58:33 PM , Rating: 2
Hell I'm making that little bastard president of it! lmao


RE: I don't care
By weaponzero on 8/18/2014 1:57:39 PM , Rating: 2
So you are aware, most of the replacements were due to milling sounds, not due to failure. Imagine if every gas vehicle had to be replaced every time it made noise?


RE: I don't care
By flyingpants1 on 8/19/2014 9:23:24 AM , Rating: 2
Or vibration!!


RE: I don't care
By Dr. Kenneth Noisewater on 8/18/2014 11:58:29 AM , Rating: 2
Tesla swapped out the powertrains because it was faster to do that than to fix the actual broken part(s) while leaving the owner driving a loaner. It's easier and faster for Tesla to drop the powertrain, replace it, and ship off the bad one for repair and refurbishing. Plus, I reckon they'll want to have a number of bad examples for troubleshooting, and to create repair procedures as well as engineering improvements.

This actually speaks extremely well for their customer service, and may provide excellent word-of-mouth advertising for a long time to come. Tesla's service, by all indications so far, is at a massively higher level of customer delight than anyone else's, and if they acquit themselves well with what could be considered a 'stealth recall', long term it could be a plus.

Traditional manufacturer: "Grinding? They all do that."
Tesla: "Grinding? We're so sorry, here's a top-of-the-line loaner, we're swapping the drivetrain since it's faster to do that then to tear down and fix it locally, so we can get it back to you as quickly as possible."


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 12:11:56 PM , Rating: 2
Imagine you paid ~100k for this vehicle.

You've taken it into the shop multiple times for the same issue. They're replacing parts like crazy, but the issue keeps coming back. And the car only has 30k miles on it!

Then you see on the news that the whole problem could have been fixed with a $3 tie, the problem was never even related to all the parts they've replaced!

You think Tesla is going to get good word of mouth from this? I would be livid, and so would you!


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 12:22:01 PM , Rating: 2
Yes.

The one owner who is getting a buy back is OK with it.

Tesla is doing everything it can to make things right with each case/issue.

Bottom line, Tesla wants it's owners to be satisfied with their purchase and Tesla is backing up their product 110% with their actions.

No one is perfect and nothing is perfect 100% of the time. This is still a new-ish car/technology and even the technicians are still learning the in's and out's of the car.

Unless you've actually worked on your car your-self, you have zero practical knowledge/experience to go off of IMO. Thus you know nothing about what it takes to service a car.

My suggestion, don't buy one for yourself.



RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 12:25:36 PM , Rating: 1
You guys are such Tesla pole-smokers, I mean really, zero credibility.

You people (the Daily Tech community at large) crucified Toyota because people were too stupid to keep floormats out of the gas pedal assembly.

But you give Tesla a total free pass on this???


RE: I don't care
By Arkive on 8/18/2014 1:46:59 PM , Rating: 2
To be completely fair, I think it's a lot more obvious that a heavy, unsecured floor mat might pose a legitimate safety concern than a small, unsecured wire might somehow cause a vibration that triggers a service alarm. Also, it's worth noting that in the former example peoples lives were at risk (at least one family died because of it) and in the latter it's just a matter of inconvenience.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 2:42:52 PM , Rating: 2
LOL.

Your just coming off as a complete A$$ now.

Are you stoned out of your mind or what? You've got zero credibility at this point.

On a serious note, You really need counseling IMO.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 3:13:18 PM , Rating: 2
Your last 5 posts have been just attacks on me. I'm the ass?

At least I'm more interested in debating the issue than I am in smearing the other person.

Grow up. If you can't handle living in my world, go back to 4Chan.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 7:52:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
debating the issue


LOL.

Debating?

Your world?

LOL. Now That's funny

Talk about being delusional/egotistical.


RE: I don't care
By Mint on 8/18/2014 8:02:47 PM , Rating: 2
You're equating unintended acceleration to some minor noise? Seriously?

Did Elon screw your wife? Where does all this hate come from?


RE: I don't care
By Alexvrb on 8/18/2014 9:16:47 PM , Rating: 2
Actually the floor mats weren't the only problem (and in many cases weren't the real problem at all). They later had to repair or replace the accelerator pedals. They had a poor design that could lead to binding. I've seen videos of technicians shimming them to fix/prevent the issue, but in cases where this wasn't satisfactory they'd replace the entire pedal assembly.

See, Toyota recalled all these floor mats because they didn't know what was causing the problem. Kind of like Tesla. They later found and corrected the problems with the accelerator pedal with another recall. Kind of like Tesla. Not to excuse Tesla, of course, but you don't want to come off as apologist while you knock people for being apologists. Apology accepted.


RE: I don't care
By zodiacfml on 8/18/2014 3:13:45 PM , Rating: 2
Tesla is a new company with new products. What they did was the best decision. Long term, they would see even more problems and worse than this and it will be a learning experience.


RE: I don't care
By Dr. Kenneth Noisewater on 8/18/2014 3:12:12 PM , Rating: 2
You've taken it into the shop multiple times for the same issue. They're replacing parts like crazy, but the issue keeps coming back. And the car only has 30k miles on it!

I haven't ever taken it to the shop. I called Tesla, they sent a fellow driving a top-of-the-line P85+ who swapped it with me in my driveway. In a few days, I got my own car back, and regretfully handed back the much nicer loaner.

Which other dealers offer such a seamlessly delightful experience when something of theirs goes wrong? _Maybe_ it'd have been good to offer customers a choice as to how long they would be stuck with the loaner, but frankly, I'd rather get my car back sooner rather than later, especially if that means I get a refreshed powertrain.


RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 4:29:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Which other dealers offer such a seamlessly delightful experience when something of theirs goes wrong?
Pretty much every luxury car manufacturer does this. Even our low end BMW gets the same service although they haven't had to drop the engine and tranny out on ours.


RE: I don't care
By Andrwken on 8/19/2014 4:25:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Which other dealers offer such a seamlessly delightful experience when something of theirs goes wrong?


Really?

The local Chevy dealership picked up my wife's Cruze at home from 20 miles out and dropped off a Brand new Impala. They kept the car for two weeks until they found the bad can bus wiring and repaired the car. Then to make sure we were still happy with our purchase, GM added 75k to the bumper to bumper warranty. I went from 3yr/36k to 5yr/105k bumper to bumper warranty at no cost to make sure I was confident in the vehicle. The vehicle never stalled, just lost comms and registered CEL's.

How is your experience any better than mine? I only paid $20k for the wife's commuter car. And from a lot of people's mouths around here, that was from a terrible car company.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/19/2014 4:35:47 PM , Rating: 2
What can you expect? Model S owners like Kenneth here are obviously pretentious elitists who think they own the best and are better than the 'scumbags' who roll around in ICE's.


RE: I don't care
By LocalBarista on 8/30/2014 10:36:03 AM , Rating: 1
Okay, here comes the rant..

First off, Reclaimer77:
I agree that people are over-protective of Tesla but you are over exagerrating your claims and being relative deceptive in how you word things. Examples,

A. "3 Drivetrain failures in 30k miles"
First off, it wasn't a drivetrain failure it was a stupid cable harnest which was a design flaw and giving them flak for that is fine BUT stop continuously saying it's a drive train failure when it's not one because it's implying mechanical issues which is a much bigger problem then a cable harnest .

B. "The model S is a $100k car"
This is deceptive because the price of a Tesla S ranges based on features not related to the issues at hand . The issues with the Tesla S (ie. cable harnest) can be found on the entry-feature models which are approximately $60,000 which means that the QC and design quality are not influenced by the higher priced models .

C. "Japanese cars are best/Sticking to Japs" & "Americans are garbage" & "Tesla is pretty bad":
You are overly protective of japanese cars, at times, approach and exceed the level of fanboyism of the Tesla people here.
Some examples of major failures by Eastern Car Manufacturers, which in many cases significantly involved passenger safety.
Google these, usually in the first few links.
- Honda, Toyota and Nissan airbag recalls
- Toyota and their floating accelerator pedal issue; it wasn't just the floormat, the pedal's rheostat had an issue which led to entering full-open/floating and getting stuck there, the floormats just made it that much worse.
- Toyota massive recall for steering and other issues.
- Honda power window overheating issue recall.

Now I'm not saying that Tesla is perfect either, the whole battery fire incident was something they should have factored in for all that they claim about being "safe". Please note, that I am aware of the fact that most ICE cars offer very little protection to the driver/passenger against underbody intrusion , even so this does not excuse Tesla from their poor protection against intrusion, not to mention that Teslas generally have less underside clearance and openings to allow debris to bounce and pass through underneath the car in comparison to many ICE-based cars. More on this below.
-------------------

Now to the rest of you who are excusing Tesla, for this particular issue I would give them a pass considering the lack of severity of the issue, even though it did cause an inconvenience, mainly due to their response in addressing the issue, but as I have stated before, the battery fire incidents are not excusable since the lower clearance, a bigger point I did not mention is the nature of what is exposed on the underside of the car, a battery puncture is a serious issue and while, yes puncturing a fuel tank is also and issue there are two distinct differences here that need to be taken into account.

A. The battery for a Tesla covers a major part of the underside of the car and is much closer to the front meaning that the object has both a higher chance of striking the battery (multiple times) and the initial strikes will have a higher impact pressure (of course things like shape of debris, impact angle, speed, etc can change this). This makes protecting the battery even more important.

B. The second thing people don't seem to realize is that except for the small fuel line, most modern fuel tanks are made out of a light, malleable polymer and this most tanks will deform on impact instead of being punctured, dependent of course, upon pressure and angle of attack at the point of impact.

Of course this is not to say that ICEs are better overall compared to never EV cars such as the Tesla in terms of safety, just see the statistics on deaths/injuries and car failures per set amount of a car type.

Now can you ALL stop making personal accusations and bitching like retards and grow up? If you want to state something that's fine, just provide some sort of evidence or backing, don't just talk out of your ass.

P.S. Tired as hell, probably a lot of typos and other mistakes in this, will edit later.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 2:55:06 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed.

77 is just over reacting as usual.


RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 4:30:38 PM , Rating: 2
The only agreement here is that some of you are willing to bend over if you love the thing bending you over.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 12:10:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Fires


After each driver runs over large objects in the roadway.

It's NOT the vehicles fault if the driver is too stupid to pay attention to debris int he road. Tesla stepped up and addressed the problem as it again in this story.

One needs to keep in mind that the Tesla cars are STILL pretty much in the early stages and as more of their vehicles are on the road over time, any other issues that come up will be addressed by Tesla in the same way.

I'd put more trust in Musk and his company than anyone at Chrysler.

Buy what you want, but we don't need YOU to tell us what to buy. This is still a free country, is it not?


RE: I don't care
By Arkive on 8/18/2014 12:11:03 PM , Rating: 3
It's a first-generation vehicle and they're correcting everything that comes up, and even upping the warranty to give users a little piece of mind. The issues are big but the causes are minor (ie. dangling cable). Seriosuly, what more do you want? A perfect vehicle starting with the very first one that rolls off the line?


RE: I don't care
By ritualm on 8/18/2014 12:17:53 PM , Rating: 3
He won't. Reclaimer hates Elon Musk and everything he does, whether it's SpaceX or Tesla.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 12:23:49 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, seems to be the case, based on posts over time.

Some people simply resent other peoples successes and blame their own failures on others.


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 12:30:56 PM , Rating: 1
I don't hate Musk or everything he does. Nice trolling though, as usual.

I do have a serious problem with him using lawsuits to crush the right of the media to inform the public though. However that's for another discussion, and thankfully he's lost those attempts at suppressing free speech.


RE: I don't care
By ritualm on 8/18/2014 12:52:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't hate Musk or everything he does.

Your posting history over this topic strongly disagrees with that "assertion" of yours.
quote:
Nice trolling though, as usual.

I'm not trolling. All I need to do is search DT for Tesla articles, and the first thing I see every time: your posts downranked to the red.

Again, your posting history proves YOU, not me, are the one doing all the trolling here.


RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 2:21:53 PM , Rating: 3
Dude you're a Reclaimer troll, your post history supports this assertion.


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 2:59:22 PM , Rating: 2
You dating 77 or what?


RE: I don't care
By Reclaimer77 on 8/18/2014 3:06:39 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah that's real mature. Way to take the high road there, Thumbs...


RE: I don't care
By Spuke on 8/18/2014 4:31:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
77 is just over reacting as usual.
Weren't you the person that just said this?


RE: I don't care
By GotThumbs on 8/18/2014 8:14:28 PM , Rating: 2
And didn't you just say:

quote:
The only agreement here is that some of you are willing to bend over if you love the thing bending you over.


Mine was a joke.

I'll follow it with a :-) next time so it's clear.

IMO Don't take this too seriously. At the end of the day. It's everyone expressing their opinions with a little bantering to boot.

I don't expect anyone to take our words as gospel. They should be able to make up their own mind.


RE: I don't care
By skildner on 8/19/2014 1:48:18 PM , Rating: 2
Agree with you 100%. Tesla could find a cure for cancer and Reclaimer would claim that it's bad because its' putting doctors out of business.

Not sure why Reclaimer hates Tesla so much, but it's blatantly obvious in his posts.

quote:
I don't care who you are, having this happen in a vehicle as expensive as the Model S is completely inexcusable.


Cars sometimes have defects, the price of the vehicle is of no consequence. This is a complex machine designed by humans, there will be errors and oversights. I challenge you to find a manufacturer with a mass produced vehicle without any recalls. Any vehicle at any price range.

quote:
I don't think there's a single ICE car on Earth that this has happened to recently. But I know, people here are going to give three total powertrain failures in only 30k miles a free pass.


Firstly, they were not power-train failures. There was an issue with a cable tie. They only replaced the drive units because they couldn't place the problem and wanted to appease the customer as much as possible no matter what the cost ($45k in total).

quote:
Fires, complete powertrain failures after 15k miles!?? No thanks, stick with a Japanese brand folks.


Here are some facts from the US Fire Administration:
"From 2008 to 2010, an estimated 194,000 highway
vehicle fires occurred in the United States each year
resulting in an annual average of approximately 300
deaths, 1,250 injuries and $1.1 billion in property loss."
"The leading factor contributing to the ignition of highway vehicle fires was mechanical failure(44 percent)"

There have been zero Tesla vehicle fires due to mechanical failure.

It really sounds like you are barking up the wrong tree Mr. Reclaimer. Sure, Tesla does have it's faults, but you give them no credit whatsoever. Your opinions and judgements of Tesla aren't based on fact or reality.


RE: I don't care
By LOL Here We Go Again on 8/20/2014 6:02:57 PM , Rating: 1
Obviously, you do not speak ENGLISH well enough to comprehend what the author said. As such, if you will kindly take the time to learn the meaning of "Edmunds’ long-term test vehicle", and then go read Mr. Musks statement on what REALLY was wrong, to the point where you understand that a $3 part could have fixed the problem, but that they did not know that when they replaced the three drive-trains, then perhaps you could begin to post something that was worth reading.

Posting from a point of ignorance only makes you look like an idiot.

Next....


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