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Fiat 500  (Source: AutoBlog)

Fiat Panda  (Source: AutoBlog)

Fiat Grande Punto  (Source: AutoBlog)

Alfa Romeo MiTo  (Source: AutoBlog)
New partnership with Chrysler will speed up Fiat's invasion of American streets

Amid tough financial times, Chrysler has turned to European automaker Fiat for a boost.  Fiat is alternatively known for both its fuel-efficient compact cars and for its sports legacy, with Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo being among its subsidiaries.   In exchange for its help, Chrysler is giving away a 35 percent ownership stake to Fiat.

This is good news for the American consumer, as it means some great new vehicles will soon be coming to the States.  Fiat leaked news to several outlets that it plans to bring seven models initially to the U.S.  Four will be rebranded as Chrysler entries, while the other three will be sold as Fiat's or Alfa Romeos, likely through Chrysler dealerships and distribution networks.

Leading the way is the Fiat 500, a fuel-sipping compact car with cool looks.  Next up is another A segment model based on the Fiat Panda, a 5-door hatchback compact which gets terrific fuel economy.  This model will likely be branded as a Chrysler or Dodge. No word on if the sporty Abarth variant will be coming, but it seems likely.

The Fiat 500 will be produced primarily at Chrysler's Toluca, Mexico plant, which currently makes the Dodge Journey and the soon-to-be-gone PT Cruiser.  Other Chrysler plants are also expected to be used by Fiat.

In the B segment, the Fiat Grande Punto and the Alfa Romeo MiTo will be coming.  Both small vehicles should bring sporty performance to the table.  Chrysler may also gain access to Fiat's 1.4- and 1.8-liter four-cylinder direct-injection engines.  Sources indicate that Chrysler is interested chiefly in the 1.4-liter variant, which it could possibly produce at its Dundee, Michigan plant as a turbocharged model.

Chrysler may also be getting additional mid-size models from Fiat as replacements for the Caliber/Compass and Sebring/Avenger.  These models may be built on Fiat's C-Evo platform which will be first utilized in the Alfa Romeo 147 replacement, currently codenamed project 940.  This replacement may be brought directly to the states.

Some perks are coming Chrysler's way in addition to the possibly improved brand image.  Chrysler's V6 Phoenix engine will be licensed for use in upcoming Fiat models.  And Fiat will distribute Chrysler trucks in South America, where it has a stronger presence.

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Good news
By rudolphna on 1/26/2009 1:46:16 PM , Rating: 2
With the exception of the 500, those cars all look fanatstic. I love that panda. Hopefully in addition to new styling Fiat can give chrysler a few pointers on reliability. Chrysler engines themselves are good, but the reliability leaves something to be desired.




RE: Good news
By rudolphna on 1/26/2009 1:47:38 PM , Rating: 2
sorry, not the panda. The grande punto or whatever it is. Looks kinda like hte VW Golf GTi


RE: Good news
By whirabomber on 1/26/2009 2:10:18 PM , Rating: 2
I seriously do hope they change the name of the punto as it reminds me too much of a menthos spoof.

On topic, the only way I'd think about buying one of those is if I had a truck sitting in my driveway to use when I actually needed to do more than just zip around town.


RE: Good news
By BZDTemp on 1/26/2009 2:26:48 PM , Rating: 2
I think you might find the FIAT cars are a lot of fun to drive. They are light, nimble with engines that like to rev while also able to do fine on the free way!

As for the Punto name it mean . in Italian so at least it is not a fake word like so many cars.


RE: Good news
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 2:34:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think you might find the FIAT cars are a lot of fun to drive. They are light, nimble with engines that like to rev while also able to do fine on the free way!
You've just described nearly every small car on the market today in the US. What does Fiat bring to the table that doesn't already exist 10X over already?


RE: Good news
By 306maxi on 1/26/09, Rating: 0
RE: Good news
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 3:33:03 PM , Rating: 2
LOL, Fiat is no Toyota or Honda, not even close. Even Toyota is struggling here in the US - do you really expect Fiat to succeed when Toyota is struggling?


RE: Good news
By 306maxi on 1/26/2009 3:45:19 PM , Rating: 1
You don't get it. GM, Ford and Chrysler were all successful once upon a time. They then made bad decisions and have fallen down. Fiat is doing very well in the current climate. Why? Because they're building good cars which give people what they want? People are wanting to downsize and buy more efficient cars and that is exactly what Fiat is delivering.


RE: Good news
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 4:09:27 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Fiat is doing very well in the current climate.
Fiat, along with just about every other auto company has had lackluster sales as of late. Their net profit was down 15% over last year.
quote:
People are wanting to downsize and buy more efficient cars and that is exactly what Fiat is delivering.
You say this like the market has changed in Europe, its been like this since the 70's.


RE: Good news
By 306maxi on 1/26/2009 4:20:06 PM , Rating: 3
Lets put that into perspective, while others are announcing big losses Fiat only had a cut in profits so was still making money.....

I never said the European market was experiencing a lot of downsizing, I was talking about the US which is where Fiat are going to relaunch. Basically it's a market which ideally suits Fiat's style of cars. Sure a lot of people will want big cars with V8's and Fiats won't be for them but a lot of people in the US are wanting to move to smaller a/b/c sector cars and Fiat is able to supply a competitive product.


RE: Good news
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 4:28:25 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that Americans don't generally buy premium small cars. The Mini is an exception because of its heritage. The Fiat has no such heritage here. Will people buy them? Sure, they will and I might too. Will Chrysler make tons of money from them? Doubt it. Historically Americans equate small cars with "I can't afford better" and there's no reason, despite the two or three people here on DT, that will change in a short or even medium period of time. The facts remain that pickup trucks are still the best sellers. Until that changes, US car buying habits will remain.


RE: Good news
By BZDTemp on 1/26/2009 6:56:47 PM , Rating: 3
A FIAT is not a premium car. It is a lot of car for your money.

For example the 500 is little more than half of what a Mini cost. They really are cars with a lot going for them an this is while being unpretentious in contrast to the Bettle and the Mini *not the old 1960 ones that is.


RE: Good news
By rudy on 1/30/2009 4:32:45 PM , Rating: 2
But after shipping them to the US will they be alot of car for your money?
AFAIK from english people they are known as being small cheap easy to break cars. Wonder how there could be a such a big difference in opinions.


RE: Good news
By Hare on 1/27/2009 2:50:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
he problem is that Americans don't generally buy premium small cars.

Hahahaha. BMW 1-series is a small premium car. Audi A1,2,3 Or Mercedes A-series go to that category as well. Fiat and premium in the same sentence, eh...


RE: Good news
By Spuke on 1/27/2009 1:48:53 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Hahahaha. BMW 1-series is a small premium car. Audi A1,2,3 Or Mercedes A-series go to that category as well. Fiat and premium in the same sentence, eh
BMW 1 series in the US is NOT classified as a small car. The Audi A1 and A2 are not available here. The A3 is available here but not classified as a small car. And the Mercedes A-class is not available here either.

I'll explain it. Small cars in the US are cheap. Mostly under $20k but there are some going over that. The Mini is the SOLE exception. Those can get a bit over $30k.

So, unless the Fiat's come in around the same price points as equally sized US small cars, they WILL be in the same class as the Mini which is considered a PREMIUM small car in the US. A class of car that Americans typically do not buy because small cars are viewed as basic transportation here and WE won't spend a lot of money on basic transportation.

Comprende?


RE: Good news
By Hare on 1/27/2009 4:46:56 PM , Rating: 3
@Spuke,
No I don't get it? Just because small real premium cars are not available in the US you can't just decide that suddenly the Fiat is a premium car. Fiat has decent cars but they are not premium -> high quality, high price.

If you don't classify the 1-series BMW as a small car than there aren't that many Fiat models that could be considered small. What comes to price, Fiats are not the cheapest cars but they are usually below average in their classes.


RE: Good news
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 4:31:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Lets put that into perspective , while others are announcing big losses Fiat only had a cut in profits so was still making money.....
Yes lets, Fiat was up 8% for the year before the last quarter, and once the trouble started, they were down 45% for the fourth. Just because they didnt feel the pinch until after the big players, does not mean they are free and clear. If the rest of the year is anything like this years fourth quarter, they will be in for a loss.

quote:
I never said the European market was experiencing a lot of downsizing, I was talking about the US which is where Fiat are going to relaunch.
First lets get it straight, there is not an auto maker in the world that is not feeling the pinch. Second, Fiat has absolutely no brand recognition in the states. While I do agree it is probably the best time for Fiat to enter the US market (if there ever was one), I disagree with your statements in which you think they can be more than a niche market. Unless they start re branding Fiats as Chrystlers, I just don't see them being mainstream for at least 10 years, and that's being conservative.


RE: Good news
By Murloc on 1/26/2009 4:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
those cars are good for highway too... Not the 500, but the other yes.
The panda may not look good for you, but is compact and you still have a lot of space in it.


RE: Good news
By Oregonian2 on 1/26/2009 4:38:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
LOL, Fiat is no Toyota or Honda, not even close. Even Toyota is struggling here in the US - do you really expect Fiat to succeed when Toyota is struggling?


Does Fiat have something like the Toyota Tundra (that's tanking)?


RE: Good news
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 4:49:15 PM , Rating: 2
Well, the Tundra did really well in 2007, and not so well in 2008. The jury is still out on that one, and knowing Toyota, they'll probably be pretty persistent in trying to get a winner there. After all, the top selling "cars" in America are still trucks, and Toyota clearly wants a piece of that action.

Does Fiat have any large trucks? As I said, the most popular vehicles in NA are trucks.


RE: Good news
By BZDTemp on 1/27/2009 3:59:46 AM , Rating: 2
FIAT makes real trucks but they are called Iveco and we are talking real work tools not overweight sofas on wheels.

Iveco does the full range from "small" Hummer types to 8x8 transporters meant for hauling amour.

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicle...

FIAT is not gonna make a move on the existing truck market in the US. What they are in for is the growing market of eco-boxes - right now it may be down as opposed to just months ago but oil will go up and so will the market for good small cars.


RE: Good news
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 6:35:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does Fiat have something like the Toyota Tundra (that's tanking)?
Does Fiat have something like the Honda Civic (that's tanking)?

Does Fiat have something like the Toyota Corolla (that's tanking)?

Does Fiat have something like the Honda Fit (that's tanking)?

Does Fiat have something like the Toyota Prius (that's tanking)?

Damn near every single car is tanking and trucks are not immune to the tanking economies either. Your question is silly.


RE: Good news
By Oregonian2 on 1/26/2009 7:40:26 PM , Rating: 2
It's been reported, in articles I've read, that Toyota's trucks have dropped in sales a LOT more than their cars.


RE: Good news
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 10:27:46 PM , Rating: 1
Gas prices north of $4.00/gallon probably had something to do with that.


RE: Good news
By Spuke on 1/27/2009 1:54:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's been reported, in articles I've read, that Toyota's trucks have dropped in sales a LOT more than their cars.
Too bad that's not true.

Toyota December 2008 Sales
http://tinyurl.com/dyudkb

You'll have to actually read the link to see for yourself but the Tundra is not doing any worse than other cars in Toyota's lineup.


RE: Good news
By Oregonian2 on 1/27/2009 8:54:12 PM , Rating: 2
From that site:

quote:
Toyota Division passenger cars recorded December sales... down 8.4 percent


quote:
Toyota Division light trucks reported December sales ... down 23.5 percent


More specifically for the Tundra (% drop 2007->2008):
quote:
TUNDRA -52.2


I'm not sure of what you speak.


RE: Good news
By chick0n on 1/26/09, Rating: -1
RE: Good news
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 4:29:30 PM , Rating: 3
Not anymore. See JD Powers for details and your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant so don't bother.


RE: Good news
By teldar on 1/26/2009 8:37:49 PM , Rating: 3
Ah, another poorly informed fool who wishes to shoot his mouth (fingers) off without any knowledge of the current market.

Ford is actually tied with Honda as the top rated quality manufacturer in the US. Toyota's way down the list now.

And for that matter, Ford is THE highest rated quality manufacturer in Europe.... and guess where their designs are basically all coming from over the next few years?


RE: Good news
By Alexvrb on 1/26/2009 7:53:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Fiat Panda is widely regarded as one of the best built cars in Europe
I find it funny that you named only the Panda. But even if all the Fiat models have nothing short of amazing build quality, you can throw that supposed quality right out the window. Most of the ones they're going to sell over here are going to be built in Mexico on the ultra-cheap.
quote:
Performance - Fiat have already started downsizing and using turbo's and people here in Europe are reaping the rewards already.
Plenty of cars over here use blowers, when its smart to do so. You don't want to increase cost, weight, and complexity without a good reason. With that said, modern turbos (and lubricants) have come a long way and are going to see more use, even in small cars with small engines, just for the efficiency boost (see Chevy Cruze and its likely 1.4L direct injected turbocharged Ecotec).


RE: Good news
By morning on 1/26/2009 11:39:50 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The Fiat Panda is widely regarded as one of the best built cars in Europe


quote:
And for that matter, Ford is THE highest rated quality manufacturer in Europe....


boys, I don't know where you got that from ....
but fiat has a type of cheapo brand recognition here in europe, they sell their car's typically based on low prices, I sure as hell wouldn't say "fiat panda" and "one of the best built cars in europe" in one sentence ....

to ford: they don't make bad car's but remember that we have some manufacturers in europe that are going after quality in the first place (name audi, bmw); statistics are in the change recently - the top 3 most reliable cars in use are audi a6, bmw 5er, bmw 7er, toyota's way down...


RE: Good news
By Alexvrb on 1/27/2009 6:36:18 PM , Rating: 2
That's why I said "supposed quality". I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even if they were the best built cars in the world, they won't be when they're built in Mexico.


RE: Good news
By Iger on 1/27/2009 4:10:36 AM , Rating: 3
Hmm... Fiat in Europe is very average car to be had for very little money.

Quality - Well, Panda, maybe, is some kind of exception. Fiat's build was always terrible, lately it is getting better, but is still pretty average.

Looks - range from pretty nice (to my taste) to utter, terrible garbage (check out Stilo, for example, Albea, Sedici...)

Handling - was and still is one of the weakest Fiat's features.

The rest of the points are more or less adequate... But one must remember, that the main advantage of Fiat is and always was price.

I rather like Fiat, but, imo, all these praises sound sarcastic...


RE: Good news
By BZDTemp on 1/26/2009 7:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
You may think I have describe the existing small cars but I have not. FIAT takes the light, nimble and rev happy engines to a whole different levels than most small cars.

Honestly what small cars are there in the US? The Smart, the Mini? The smart is no fun it is a fashion statement and the Mini it is not really that small and it is to expensive so it becomes to serious.

Also worth remembering is that FIAT has been doing small cars like always so they really know how to make something small big on the inside.


RE: Good news
By niva on 1/27/2009 3:06:23 AM , Rating: 2
I have been driving a 1.8T GTI since Feb 2002, love it. While the Fiats look good I'm not sure about buying one until more data on them is available in the US. I personally really like some of the Opel models, wish they sold Opel in the states but bleh...

The european vs. us models of cars are drastically different, usually not just because of assembly facilities.

That being said I'm excited about Fiats in the states.


RE: Good news
By otispunkmeyer on 1/26/2009 4:08:35 PM , Rating: 2
i'd concur.... new punto gets a 6spd, that makes for very quite and civilised motorway cruising and even the non turbo 90bhp verison seems to cope just fine.

the good thing with all fiat engines...even the 1.2's is that they just beg you to ring their necks and they love it. its the car for italians that cant have a fezza.


RE: Good news
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 4:30:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
new punto gets a 6spd, that makes for very quite and civilised motorway cruising and even the non turbo 90bhp verison seems to cope just fine.
More than likely we'll get the most powerful engine available for that car or we'll get a Chrysler engine in it that makes the power than Americans expect.


RE: Good news
By rudolphna on 1/26/2009 11:05:45 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, because most americans are conditioned to think that a car with elss than 150HP is not worth buying. Its stupid.


RE: Good news
By s12033722 on 1/30/2009 3:00:01 PM , Rating: 2
I live at 6300 ft of elevation and drive up and down significant hills every day (Colorado). My wife drives a '98 Honda Civic DX. It has 106 HP. It cannot even hit 55 mph going up many of the hills around here. That's not just an annoyance, it's a traffic hazard when you are driving 10 MPH under posted speed limits. My mother has a Nissan Sentra. Same story. There are real, valid reasons for needing at least 150 HP, and closer to 200 HP is better.

Not to mention the fact that to even get up close to 55 MPH on those hills requires flooring the cars, so the stress on the engine is greatly increased and fuel economy goes out the window... It's better to have a large, comfortable engine than a small, straining one.


This is all very unlikely
By Shyster on 1/26/2009 1:26:33 PM , Rating: 5
RE: This is all very unlikely
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 1:32:05 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly what I'm talking about.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 2:35:55 PM , Rating: 3
I think you missed the Punto..


RE: This is all very unlikely
By Lord 666 on 1/26/2009 7:35:36 PM , Rating: 2
This whole Chrysler/Fiat thing reminds me of when Yugo's were imported with an asking price of $3995.

Sure they selled well in the beginning, but after people realized they were horrible, it just ruined all hope.

Chysler/Fiat will have to do something similar from a marketing perspective by either offering an insane low cost, gas mileage gimmick, or combination of other advertising blitz to move these units.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By bruce24 on 1/26/2009 8:07:55 PM , Rating: 3
>> This whole Chrysler/Fiat thing reminds me of when
>> Yugo's were imported with an asking price of $3995.

>> Sure they selled well in the beginning, but after
>> people realized they were horrible, it just ruined
>> all hope.

Swap Yugo with Hyundai have you have a totally different outcome.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By shiznit on 2/1/2009 5:12:05 PM , Rating: 2
Hey my dad had a Yugo!

But we did live in Yugoslavia at the time :D


RE: This is all very unlikely
By JasonMick (blog) on 1/26/2009 1:45:43 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with the part that it seems unlikely for Chrysler to bear all the retooling costs. Realistic, I think they'll come to some sort of a mutual agreement (albeit one that might be slightly disadvantageous to Chrysler, still, given their previous agreements) and you will see actual production.

However, I disagree with the article's conclusions about the sales potential of the Fiats. I see the eventual scenario as much more mixed, and not as wholesale negative as that article speculates.

The Fiat 500 is in my eyes most comparable to the Smart Car (though also akin to the mini cooper). In my area there's STILL a waiting list for the Smart Car. I see a similar situation occurring, despite the bad economy for the Fiat 500.

Initial production will likely be low, but what there is, I think a lot of American consumers will gobble Fiat's compact offerings up. The mid-size is where I think they'll falter, though.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 1:54:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, I disagree with the article's conclusions about the sales potential of the Fiats.
I think your conclusion ignores the fact that you have to sell a LOT OF UNITS in order to support the brand in a market like the US. You have to invest lots of money for manufacturing, sales dealers, service, parts, etc. I don't know exact break-even figures, but I doubt they would even come close in today's market.

And besides, as others have pointed out, with cheap gas due to the recession, there's not exactly a big demand for small cars right now.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 2:43:32 PM , Rating: 2
Normally I would agree with your statements, but this economy is anything but normal. In the past the compact size and styling of European cars were generally thought of as a turn off in the US. Unfortunately times have changed, and people are looking for this kind of vehicle. I think you also fail to realize that US manufacturers are starting to follow suit, you won't be seeing too many new mid/large size models getting released in the US for the next little while.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 3:08:51 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, but the current economic conditions also don't favor the kinds of investments and patience required to bring a new line of cars to the US market. That is where I think they fail.

In addition, I don't think a recession drives folks into smaller cars. The recession causes fewer cars to be sold, but the mix of small/large cars is primarily driven by current gasoline prices. Gas prices are low now, and so I would expect the mix to continue to favor larger cars, especially since the monthly payment on a small car is not much different than a larger car or truck.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 3:19:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, but the current economic conditions also don't favor the kinds of investments and patience required to bring a new line of cars to the US market. That is where I think they fail.

In addition, I don't think a recession drives folks into smaller cars. The recession causes fewer cars to be sold, but the mix of small/large cars is primarily driven by current gasoline prices.
There is no doubt that there is risk involved here. On the otherhand, Fiat earnings were down 44% last quarter. Successfully bringing Fiat to North America could jump start the company, or if they fail, could be the final blow. Either way it looks like Fiat needs to take action regardless, so might as well go out swinging ;)


RE: This is all very unlikely
By myhipsi on 1/27/2009 8:29:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Gas prices are low now, and so I would expect the mix to continue to favor larger cars, especially since the monthly payment on a small car is not much different than a larger car or truck.


I just checked Chrysler.ca and I beg to differ.

Caliber (Small Car) = $106.00 Bi-Weekly
300 (Larger Car) = $173.00 Bi-Weekly
Ram 1500 (Cheapest truck) = $184.00 Bi-Weekly

I wouldn't consider those payments as "not much different" and that's even considering that the Caliber is certainly not the cheapest small car out there. I just used Chysler vehicles as a reference.

When you combine a Bi-weekly payment of nearly half for a small car compared to a larger car or truck with better gas mileage and lower maintenance costs, it is much cheaper to drive a compact car. While I do agree that lower gas prices encourages people to buy larger cars/trucks, during this recession people are going to be looking at overall costs to operate and that will definitely favor compact cars.


RE: This is all very unlikely
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 4:36:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Unfortunately times have changed, and people are looking for this kind of vehicle.
Times haven't changed and people are still buying the same types of vehicles, only less of them. Some of you guys are really clueless on this and it takes only a short amount of searching to get the real data. The top 10 in US sales hasn't changed one bit. And small cars sales are down as well as truck/SUV sales but there are still MUCH more truck sales. The Ford trucks nearly double the highest selling small car, the Corolla/Matrix. The next highest, the Civic (#9), is WAY down in sales from where it used to be (which is odd..it should be following Corolla sales).


RE: This is all very unlikely
By Fireshade on 1/27/2009 10:50:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
the fact that you have to sell a LOT OF UNITS in order to support the brand in a market like the US.

I'm not sure what you mean by "supporting a brand", but BMW, Volkswagen and Audi sales in the US are nowhere near those of the Big 3 in the US.
BMW, Volkswagen and Audi are very well-known brands in the US with a rather decent dealer-support.


FIAT?
By Arce on 1/26/2009 2:31:27 PM , Rating: 4
Fix
It
Again
Tony

Remember all those shoddy FIATs? Never drive behind a Fiat just in case parts fall off.

Possibly worse than the Renault Dauphine!




RE: FIAT?
By otispunkmeyer on 1/26/2009 4:15:05 PM , Rating: 2
heh you guys sure hold grudges man... i know you guys got burned with horrible diesel engine attempts and yeah old french and italian cars were complete jokes (though for some thats all part of the charm)

but comon this is the 21st century, things have changed, time to drop the prejudices.... fiat, imho have really pulled their thumb out on their new line of cars and they are really quite attractive propositions.

this is along with both citroen and renault who are also producing very well engineered cars (citroen share a lot of engines and drive trains with ford so your safe there)

but i will give you that this transformation was relatively recently so the final word on their quality is yet to be determined (few more years down the road) and because of that... residuals suck! for the seller that is!


RE: FIAT?
By semo on 1/27/2009 4:27:42 AM , Rating: 2
what car wasn't a joke 50 years ago? fiats are better now. i still don't get why ppl buy french cars. i know renault has cars with good safety scores but i'd take a volvo any day.


RE: FIAT?
By imerani on 1/27/2009 6:00:14 PM , Rating: 2
I lived in Argentina, they have lots of fiats. I can tell you that fiats were unreliable 5 years ago, I don't know today. They were mostly manufactured in Argentina and Brazil. Also they feel very cheap.


Grande Punto
By L1011 on 1/26/2009 2:09:36 PM , Rating: 2
That Grande Punto looks pretty cool I think. That would be a model I'd be interested in, but probably not as much if it's re-branded as a Chrysler. Any word on when this will happen?




RE: Grande Punto
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 3:21:09 PM , Rating: 3
It reminds me of a GTi, except for the fact I would actually consider buying one ;)


RE: Grande Punto
By RedBull73 on 1/27/2009 10:19:32 AM , Rating: 2
Well, the one you see in the article's pictures is actually the Abarth version with 155bhp, which in Italy is not sold through Fiat's dealers but through dedicated ones. You can even order an extra kit for the Punto which boosts power to 180bhp.

And: it compares in size to a Golf from 1990, as it's less then 4 meters long (about 13'), not to the new one (just over 14' long). But it is indeed very roomy for its size.


By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 1/26/2009 2:59:10 PM , Rating: 2
Fix
It
Again,
Tony.




RE: I worked at a Fiat dealership in the 70's...
By Jellodyne on 1/26/2009 3:37:41 PM , Rating: 3
Failed
Itallian
Attempt at
Transportation


By MadMatt on 1/27/2009 8:12:05 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, and we all know how reliable the Plymouth Volare, Pontiac Catalina, Ford Mustang II, Chevette, Datsun 510, and Honda CvCC were in the same timeframe. Quality was lousy across the board, no one expected more than 100K out of any new American car. A lot of the problems on previous Fiat vehicles is that they were ahead of their time. Overhead cam, FWD Transaxles, 4-wheel disc brakes, aluminum cylinder heads, etc. These were things literally foreign back then that are now standard today.


why not...
By Dreifort on 1/26/2009 2:12:14 PM , Rating: 3
Why not just resurrect the Pontiac Fiero and market it as the new green sports coupe?

http://orphancars.com/images/FieroFinal3.jpg

The original 4cycl/2.5L engine got about 38 mpg. Talk about gas milage. And then, just as ppl did with the original Fieros, you can spice your car up with a faux Ferrari or Porsche kit.




RE: why not...
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 3:25:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
you can spice your car up with a faux Ferrari or Porsche kit.
Haha my neighbor has one of those, to this day people still think its a Ferrari..


Anyone Else..
By Reclaimer77 on 1/26/2009 7:13:48 PM , Rating: 3
Anyone else feel that this is kind of wrong ?

I mean, we give Chrysler billions of dollars of American taxpayer bailout, so they can turn around and give 35% ownership to a foreign European company.

/shrug.




Will They Make It This Time?
By cubdukat on 1/26/2009 2:32:36 PM , Rating: 2
I really hope Fiat has a lot more success this time around, and that they've fixed their quality control issues--or that they've actually put quality control in place.

There was really nothing wrong with either Fiat or Lancia that quality control couldn't have fixed. After all, both marques have been tooling around Italy for all this time; surely they must have been doing something right.

But it'll certainly be nice to have an affordable Italian car back in the US. Now if only the British would follow suit--and no, the MINI doesn't count because it's half-German.




That punto in the picture....
By otispunkmeyer on 1/26/2009 4:05:33 PM , Rating: 2
is the Abarth finished version called simply the Abarth grrand punto (note its not actually called the fiat abarth grand punto)

here in europe at least Fiats tuning arm, abarth are supposedly selling cars under the abarth badge with their cars dripping in cool styling touches, aero cosmetics and lots of scorpion badges (abarths logo)

this car is supposedly an absolute gem, it comes standard with a turbo 1.4l I4 pushing 155bhp/151 tourque and you can pay more for the essess ('SS') package that smacks those figures up to around 180/200 which is astonishing.

so its a brilliant looking car, brilliantly fast but lots of reviewers note that the ride is horrifically hard, to the point of being distracting.

whether fiat bring that model to you guys, who knows.. if not you should at least get the warm-hatch varient...the grande punto T-Jet, same 1.4 engine just 120bhp instead, though curiously i think it has the same 150 torque.

my mate has the 90bhp non turbo version and even that comes with a 6 spd and is very civilised on the road. whats more fiat seemed to have shrugged off their flimsy build quality and poor mechanics. though some interior materials are a bit hard and scratchy.

the 500 is a gem, its a proper girls car though and the ones driven around here are all owned by women. still they look increadibly cool, and you can get an abarth version of that too... in essess form you can have 165bhp! which is nuts!

the MiTo is also gorgeous, based on the punto platform i think, it shares the same engines as the punto. but they go even more mental with that... in the top spec GTA version they shoe horned in a 1.8 turbo and its got 240bhp! FWD + LSD, should be a blast!




awesome
By MadMan007 on 1/26/2009 4:33:27 PM , Rating: 2
We can now buy Fiat cars with our fiat dollars...a match made in heaven.




Fix your point of wiew
By amagriva on 1/27/2009 3:33:15 AM , Rating: 2
C'mon man this is daily tech...Old stereotypes are sometimes fun but if I read one more time the fix it again thing I'll get mad...Ok italy=pizza mafia So what? I've made 300000 km with my fiat worth 2000 bucks without one problem. p.s. 70 miles per gallon, abs, esp, six air bags, stereo cd bluetooth mp3 rds radio and double fuel (I don't know exactly how to call it but She ran with methane too)
Ciao




A new way of thinking perhaps?
By Skilty on 1/27/2009 3:53:25 AM , Rating: 2
Ok speaking as a Brit perhaps it is time for a change in perception by the average car driving American. Obama has already seen the future by asking if individual states can set emission limits. If America wants to increase it's oil independence from unstable countries then there are only so many ways it can do that.

Alternative bio fuels, hybrids, fuel cell or as recently shown on Top Gear, hydrogen fuel which doesn't change the culture of stopping at a gas station and filling up in under 5 minutes. All of these alternatives require a culture shift and education on both the pluses and minuses of each technology. This applies to all countries not just the USA, until the infrastructure and the technology reach critical mass or there is a huge push by governments the obvious move is to smaller more fuel efficient cars.

Europe has been using smaller more fuel efficient cars for decades. I actually own a Fiat Grande Punto (alas not the Abarth pictured in the article), it has the 1.4 turbo petrol engine and goes a reasonable 124mph if I wanted to (speed limit is 70mph here in the UK and do not advocate breaking the law ;-) ), alternatively I can do 40 miles per gallon (imperial not US) and conserve fuel and still drive a the speed limit on a motorway.

Fiat cars come fully loaded and you get plenty of car for your money. I think one person was discussing safety I think all Fiats now have a five star NCAP rating in Europe.

At the end of the day it is a lifestyle choice, small fuel efficient car for daily use and a bigger SUV or whatever is required to prove how affluent you are on a weekend.

For those concerned about their countries flagging industries.. ...by having two cars you can prop up the flagging automotive industry and help the insurance and financial industries at the same time!




By John Bryans Fontaine on 1/27/2009 5:05:39 PM , Rating: 2
Since the concept car was introduced at the 2002 Geneva Auto Show, The Alfa Romeo Brera, as well as it's Spider variant, have captured the attention of both the public as well as the automotive press. So much attention in fact, that Alfa decided to produce the car. And a wise decision, indeed, as this was a car which created its own 'buzz'.

Many Americans would likely want to own a Brera as well. Perhaps the car could even be manufactured here, in addition to Italy.




All these cars
By rudy on 1/30/2009 4:29:26 PM , Rating: 2
Remind me of the failed GEO line of GMs.




A yoke
By William Gaatjes on 1/26/2009 4:34:42 PM , Rating: 1
This is going to invoke a lot of anger from the "physically challenged americans" :)

But are these fine cars turned to 1 seaters to be able to sell these cars to the average american who thinks he/she only fit's in an SUV ?




Fail
By TomZ on 1/26/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fail
By MonkeyPaw on 1/26/2009 1:17:34 PM , Rating: 2
Panda, Punto, MiTo? Here's hoping for name changes for the US equivalents.


RE: Fail
By tastyratz on 1/26/2009 1:18:20 PM , Rating: 2
well obviously American consumers have far less interest in Chrysler if you think about which company was going bankrupt.

The correct statement before was YOU have no interest for those vehicles.

This is an excellent business opportunity for Chrysler and I personally look forward to the well needed variety Fiat will bring to the table in the US market.


RE: Fail
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 1:30:01 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
well obviously American consumers have far less interest in Chrysler if you think about which company was going bankrupt.
Last time I looked, I saw TONS more Chrysler cars on American roads than Italian, French, and British cars combined. Do you think nobody had the idea before to sell Fiat here in the US? No, they did, and it failed, just like it will fail again.

Heck look at it another way - the EXISTING companies are doing a poor job because of totally lousy demand for cars in the American market. How do you think consumers will react to even more supply from a largely unknown company here in the US? It doesn't end well I would guess.

Yes, my original statement was pretty bold, but I think I'm right about this.


RE: Fail
By Reflex on 1/26/2009 3:57:08 PM , Rating: 2
So basically if you fail once in a market you should never, ever try again, even decades later? Seriously?

Personally I think this deal is a great idea, it fixes a major product line hole for Chrysler, shares fixed costs for thier facilities, and gives their dealer body a product thats unique and well priced. At the very least it should get foot traffic in the door.

The arguments about Euro styling are specious, after all such cars have never been sold here before, there is virtually no similarities between a 70's Fiat and today's Fiat, and its a totally different customer base, so whether or not their styling is popular with Americans is at this point, at best, untested.

Time will tell, but even if this fails miserably it will have helped Chrysler out for a short time, at least with thier fixed costs. As for Fiat, I don't really care if they succeed or not, so long as the effort helps keep one of the Big3 alive.


RE: Fail
By tastyratz on 1/26/2009 4:20:05 PM , Rating: 2
Precisely.
Many years ago the focus was NOT on smaller fuel efficient vehicles. Fiat brings a lot to the table that the American consumer is aching for. The success of the mini cooper is a reflection on that. Mini was a largely unknown brand in America when the cooper came around and look at how well it sells. Times are very different now, and cars have greatly evolved.
I am willing to bet MANY American consumers would drive a Ferrari if it was affordable even though it is Italian. I think many people think positively when referencing Italian made cars, and Ferrari is probably the first brand to come to mind.

While Fiat itself is untested I think those 2 are strong indicators of the potential for success.


RE: Fail
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 4:47:10 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The success of the mini cooper is a reflection on that.
The success of the Mini is because Americans DO know what its heritage is. The Fiat heritage is one of junk. That perception will have to change for Fiat to be successful. Besides, the Mini doesn't sell in any great numbers here. It does well but it's still small potatoes when compared to the Honda Civic.


RE: Fail
By Reflex on 1/26/2009 8:41:09 PM , Rating: 2
Most people under 40 don't know what 'Fiat' even is. To them its a new brand. Therfore for 'most people' there is no heritage to speak of. I'm sure there will be plenty of people curious, especially with a US automaker backing them(remember, Chrysler offers a lifetime power train warranty) and these cars being fantastically higher in mileage than most of whats on the market.

As for styling, no one knows yet, as has been stated, this style has never been sold here, so who the heck knows how many it'll sell...


RE: Fail
By Spuke on 1/27/2009 5:50:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most people under 40 don't know what 'Fiat' even is.
Dude, my nieces know the Fiat jokes. They know because their parents tell them. There is a negative perception of them. Most of those under 40 don't remember the laggy turbo days or the crappy diesel days either, but the perceptions remain. Those have to change. Of course, people WILL buy them because they look good just like people buy Mini's here. If Chrysler rebadges them, that may be a very good thing for their brand as people will be these cars that look like nothing else in their lineup. May well turn the company around, IMO.


RE: Fail
By Reflex on 1/27/2009 6:59:17 PM , Rating: 2
The only person I know with any impression of Fiat is my father, and thats simply because he drove(and loved) an Alpha in the 60's. Most people I know in my own age range(20's and 30's) have never even heard of the brand. I don't know what your niece's exposure is, but I assure it its atypical.

Regardless, in the 70's asian cars were reffered to as 'junk', and for the most part, they were. It dosen't take much to change people's minds, although honestly I don't think most people will need thier minds changed except for a few older people who remember the 70's problems, and a few younger people who borrow thier opinions from their elders.


RE: Fail
By Atheist Icon on 1/28/2009 5:55:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most people under 40 don't know what 'Fiat' even is.


I'm 26, and I know Fiat is a joke. I spent a few years in Europe during the 80's, Italy mostly, and our landlords busted on Fiats all the time. My dad laughed and said Chrysler is doomed when I told him about Fiat and Chrysler fiasco. It really sucks because my parents and my grandparents worked their first jobs in Chrysler.


RE: Fail
By Radnor on 1/27/2009 4:22:19 AM , Rating: 2
Your kidding right ?

You never drove an Alfa Romeo, and if a Abarth version will be available on the us it is a mean car. Abarth was the Rallye section of Fiat.

If americans like speed like most of us European here, FIAT has a decent heritage. They are inexpensive for what you get. The new Mini and VW Beetle spit on their "people's car" heritage due to high pricing.

Honda Civic ? No Vtec can touch this Abarths or Alfas Mate.


RE: Fail
By Spuke on 1/27/2009 5:52:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Your kidding right ?
No. The perception of Fiat in the US is junk. It has nothing to do with ME driving one. Nor did I say I thought they were junk.

Some of you guys REALLY need a reading comprehension class.


RE: Fail
By Spivonious on 1/26/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fail
By gcouriel on 1/26/2009 1:22:35 PM , Rating: 3
the General Lee (Dukes of Hazzard car) was a 1969 Dodge Charger.


RE: Fail
By mholler on 1/26/2009 1:31:34 PM , Rating: 2
Obviously it's a matter of personal taste, but I much prefer Chrysler's "tough-guy" styling to anything pictured at the top of the article. The Avenger and Caliber in particular stand out compared to their mostly generic peers. They also manage to get a respectable (although far from ideal) 20-25 MPG without resorting to the bubble look that dominates many European styles.


RE: Fail
By Spivonious on 1/26/2009 2:12:21 PM , Rating: 1
25mpg is not respectable in a car the size of the Caliber. That class routinely tops 35mpg.


RE: Fail
By Screwballl on 1/26/2009 2:42:05 PM , Rating: 2
Compared to what? The bubble called a VW bug? The boxy Ford with rounded edges? The squarish Chevy with rounded edges?

Lets put it this way:
Round stuff belongs on tiny cars and sports cars. Neither of which the general public in the US tends to buy a lot of, which will include the Fiat line IF they ever reach American soil. That leaves the mid and full size vehicles.

If "anything" was better, than VW bugs, Fiat and Alfa Romeo and all these other non-boxy types of vehicles would be selling better in the US, yet they are not.

As an American, I LIKE the boxy and strong vehicles, I can care less if they get half the gas mileage, because I know myself and my family is safe when traveling on a 4000 mile road trip or running up to the corner store... a 4000 mile road trip anywhere else in the world aside from maybe Russia is just unheard of except for flying. Try driving from Stockholm to Cairo? Would you trust driving that trip in some little econobox Euro-car?


RE: Fail
By sviola on 1/27/2009 7:15:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
.. a 4000 mile road trip anywhere else in the world aside from maybe Russia is just unheard of except for flying. Try driving from Stockholm to Cairo? Would you trust driving that trip in some little econobox Euro-car?


Well, you should get informed before writing this c***... I'm not sure you are familiar with geography, but you can travel that amount in Canada or Brazil as well. The last, where FIAT is actually the bigger seller on the market (and has been praised for quality and reliability in the last few years), followed by VW, GM and Ford. And yes, people do take such road trips with FIAT cars.


RE: Fail
By gcouriel on 1/26/2009 1:20:58 PM , Rating: 1
why wouldn't there be an interest in small cars? regardless of their nationality, people are weary of spending money on a large SUV, when gas can hit $4 - $5 a gallon.

you claim there isn't a market for small italian cars, but there are none imported into the U.S. there aren't any small european cars imported into the US. however, small asian imports sell very well, so why wouldn't euro imports?


RE: Fail
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 1:46:22 PM , Rating: 4
There isn't a market for ANY car right now. Take yourself to Google and look at car sales. Everything is in the crapper. And because of low gas prices, small car sales are in the crapper too. People are NOT moving from big cars to small cars. Look at the sales numbers. You know what...I'll post some.

http://www.aiada.org/newsroom/newsDetails.asp?id=5...

Scroll down and look at the Top 10 US cars. What "cars" are number one and two? Chevy and Ford pickups. The Ford pickups are selling at almost double (STILL) than the highest selling small car on that list, the Toyota Corolla/Matrix.

There is no other way to look at this. Actual sales speaks volumes as to what people are buying in the REAL world not some fantasy land TV generated crap.


RE: Fail
By amandahugnkiss on 1/26/2009 2:06:18 PM , Rating: 2
Lately I have been living in San Antonio and there is no way in hell I would let anyone in my family drive one of these or any other small car in this area. They have their advantages and would be great in a congested metropolitan area (SF BAY, NY, etc...) but around here I don't feel they are safe enough when 70% of the vehicles out there are trucks, SUVs, Hummers, and other makes that could simply crush anyone of the pictured cars. "Yay, we saved gas! And now I don't need to go anywhere cause my spine was crushed. Yay, more gas savings!"

I'm not trying to endorse the huge vehicles most everyone drives around here, but until I'm in area where these new cars don't have a safety disadvantage (even if it's just a percieved one) I'd avoid any one of these little bugs.


RE: Fail
By walk2k on 1/26/2009 3:54:44 PM , Rating: 2
I suppose it would interest you to know that SUVs are exempt from the same safety requirements as other passenger vehicles, and that they are involved in a disproportionately high number of single-vehicle accidents (roll-overs, mostly).

Just because a car is bigger doesn't mean it's safer. Larger vehicles have longer stopping distance and poor handling. High center-of-gravity vehicles are much more prone to roll-overs.

After all, the best way to survive an accient is to avoid it in the first place.


RE: Fail
By amandahugnkiss on 1/26/2009 6:30:32 PM , Rating: 2
what you say may be true but more enforces my thought process rather than deter it. I'm concerned about getting hit by one of the other vehicles on the road, think about what a F350 with a 'several inch' lift kit, cattle gaurd, etc... does to a Metro\Mini Cooper\anything else weighing under 2 tons? That's is my angle, I don't want anything rolling over the car, landing on the car, compacting the car to two feet in length, sailing it into oncoming traffic, etc... If anyone I know is going to tangle with a truck, flatbed, etc... I want them in a 3 ton 1976 New Yorker, not a sub-compact with crumple zones and baloons for safe driving up to 35mph.


RE: Fail
By walk2k on 1/26/2009 7:28:53 PM , Rating: 2
What about large trucks, semis, etc?

Are you going to drive around in a semi truck then? Or maybe you'd feel safer in a Sherman tank?

Face it, no matter how big your car is, there is always something bigger on the road.

People have to get it out of their heads that bigger = safer.

The reality is that the opposite is quite often the case.


RE: Fail
By Reclaimer77 on 1/26/2009 8:07:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
People have to get it out of their heads that bigger = safer. The reality is that the opposite is quite often the case.


Why ? If they think it makes them safer, who's it hurting ?

As for your other point, unless you have found a magical way to bend physics to your will, that's just a bunch of nonsense.

Crash test ratings only show half the story. The other crash test, passenger safety, is never the one quoted by manufacturers. For example, the Smart car got a 5 star crash rating. But it tied for LOWEST of all cars tested for passenger safety and survivability in a crash. How well the car holds up in a crash means nothing if the people inside are turned into pulp.


RE: Fail
By amandahugnkiss on 1/26/2009 10:23:28 PM , Rating: 1
Everything I said was related to the 'large trucks' that are on the road in this area, the jacked up king cab F350s being driven by soccer moms, flat bed tow trucks with drunks piloting, or Hummers being driven by 18 year old rich kids who don't know how to handle them.

While some of the safety comments you made maybe or are true they don't relate to line of reasoning in my comment. You pointed at single car acidents in the other post, none of which I was addressing unless they roll onto a Fiat, thus becoming a two car accident, and then there's some comment about there always being something bigger on the road. No Shit! I still see no compelling argument here for intentionally putting myself or anyone I care about in one of the smallest vehicles I can find, intentionally reducing any chance to walk away from a collision that would be a fatality with a GEO, Scion, Fiat, Golf cart, go cart, ten speed, motorcycle, etc...

And then the reduced visiblity of a vehicle also comes into play around here, increasing the likely hood of a collision. At least in this respect I am touching on a point you made about avoiding the accident all together.

Not sure if this will sink in, I don't really think I care or that I want to invest any more time into making it any clearer. I suspect you're arguing just for sake of arguing, or possibly to be an ass, doesn't really matter.


RE: Fail
By elvirb on 1/26/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fail
By ebakke on 1/26/2009 1:40:25 PM , Rating: 2
I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you don't know the first thing about a global economy.


RE: Fail
By elvirb on 1/26/2009 6:52:56 PM , Rating: 2
I'm quite sure you know the difference between a global economy and a global market.


RE: Fail
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 1:48:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hummer is the most ugly and discraseful car in the world and that is the image the world has of American cars.
That's ironic since Hummer is selling poorly in America. In fact, GM is looking for a company to sell the brand to but can't find any takers.

A friend of mine leased a Hummer a while back because it was so cheap. I think his lease was like $350/month or so.

No, I don't own a Hummer, either. I have one German car and one Japanese-brand transplant.


RE: Fail
By joemoedee on 1/26/2009 1:23:22 PM , Rating: 1
American consumers have shown to not like Chrysler's style as well.

The only "affordable" car in the list above marketed to the US is the Mini. It is built by BMW, however its styling is distinctively British Mini. It does quite well.

If marketed and priced properly, this could prove a success for Chrysler. The auto landscape is much different now than it was 25 years ago.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto-news/revealed-a... vs http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/brandizzler...

I know which one I'd rather have...


RE: Fail
By V3ctorPT on 1/26/2009 1:26:17 PM , Rating: 1
I'm a European, and I don't like those cars... strange looks... Spanish cars are good (SEAT), they are part of VW group, same quality as VW, only cheaper and aimed for a more "juvenil" look.

Fiat just sucks...


RE: Fail
By coinalt on 1/26/2009 2:27:51 PM , Rating: 2
You are spanish I suppose...Seat is a poor parent of VW.
It's only for young young people, design is very bad.
Look Alfa-Romeo please.
(I'm not italian but)


RE: Fail
By V3ctorPT on 1/26/2009 3:06:16 PM , Rating: 2
Not spanish :D And I don't own a seat. I like seat Leon, for example... i think their design is different, more agressive, those cars are not common, just that... The only car I would buy is the Opel Astra GTC with the 1.9cdti 150hp... diesel, but with a good punch.


RE: Fail
By Merry on 1/26/2009 1:29:27 PM , Rating: 2
There is little or no interest/market for Italian cars here in the US.

I think you could be wrong.

I would expect the 500 to do exceptionally amongst the 'trendy' city types, who currently go for the MINI. The Panda is a solid small family car, its cheap too and actually quite solid reliability wise. The 100hp version is quite a blast too, by all accounts (the 500 is based on the Panda btw)

I own an older mk1 Punto and having nothing but praise for it. I havent driven the newer one but again reviews are generally positive. And look at it. Hardly a minger is it?! The MiTo is based on the Punto too.

FIAT are attacking the market with their best cars, I dont see any reason why they wont succeed. I'm a bit surprised they haven't thought about releasing the Bravo though.

I think your views of FIATs are tarnished by cars they previously exported like the x1/9 (which rots like buggery) and such. They really truly aren't like that anymore.


RE: Fail
By ebakke on 1/26/2009 1:44:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Panda is a solid small family car, its cheap too and actually quite solid reliability wise.
...and it looks like the spawn of a Scion xB and Geo/Chevy Tracker. Thanks but no thanks.


RE: Fail
By Iaiken on 1/26/2009 1:59:24 PM , Rating: 2
Having driven a 2006 MCS for a while now, I wouldn't mention the MINI Cooper and the 500 in the same sentence... They are totally different little beasts.

Even the regular Cooper (sans supercharger/turbo) is still a pretty fun little ride with a low stance and great suspension; although relatively gutless on the throttle.

Then there is the quick, nimble and fun "S" which is quite likely the only real luxury sports compact out there for which there are only two rules.

Bend the rules.
Rule the bends.


RE: Fail
By Merry on 1/26/2009 2:06:33 PM , Rating: 2
They are totally different little beasts.

Yes, they are in those terms. I dont think the 'trendy' I was referring to care too much about that sort of thing, though.


RE: Fail
By Samus on 1/26/2009 2:04:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is little or no interest/market for Italian cars here in the US. Just as there is no market for French cars, Spanish cars, English cars, etc.


I guess the record sales of Mini Coopers and Smart Cars (at least here in Chicago) doesn't mean anything. I know they are German, but most people still think the Mini is English-built, because...IT LOOKS ENGLISH.

There is absolutely a market here for small cars. Maybe not where you live, but in big city's, people love them. There are perks for owning small cars too, like cheap/free parking, special parking spaces, lower taxes, and cheaper village stickers.

I'm sure most people will be especially interested in the Panda's electric heater core (the joke is the car heats up faster than its 0-60, which takes about 20 seconds on the base deisel model) and the all wheel drive system in a car priced around $10,000


RE: Fail
By Spuke on 1/26/2009 2:36:37 PM , Rating: 2
Mini's sell extremely well but not in large numbers. They only sold 54k in 2008. Ford sells almost as many trucks in one month. And that number (54k) is not nearly enough to put a dent in Chrysler's CAFE requirements. The Fiat's would need to sell much more than that. My guess is that the Fiat 500 would be a Mini competitor in the US and would be priced accordingly. Chrysler needs to make a good profit on these vehicles to make this venture worthwhile.

Also, Fiat's a have poor perception of quality here in the US. Hopefully the people that end up buying these cars don't remember it like some do here. I personally would not mind a Grande Punto Abarth SS for the wife as she likes the Mini and in a couple of years we'll be in that market.


RE: Fail
By psychobriggsy on 1/26/2009 2:43:43 PM , Rating: 2
From all accounts the Fiat 500 is an excellent car in its class, and I'm sure it will sell extremely well into certain demographics in the US. They look good in person too.

As for building them, I would imagine that before factories get tooled up a few container ship loads of cars followed by parts for assembly could easily make their way across the Atlantic.


RE: Fail
By RedBull73 on 1/28/2009 9:56:09 AM , Rating: 2
Let me tell you a little bit about "what" exactly the Fiat 500 is. I'm Italian and the old 500 (launched in the early 50's) was for many Italians what the Ford F-150 is for you Americans: a landmark in the country's motoring evolution.

The 500 is small, as its older sibling, because many cities and towns in Italy are small, and the concept of a 4-passenger car allowed the population to start traveling in total freedom. Italy is only about 1400 miles long from tip to tip, and some 300 miles "wide" in the North, but we are about 60 million people roughly in the space of Arizona.

In the 90's the old Fiat 500 lived a second youth in Paris, France, because the tiny size allowed it to be parked anywhere. The Smart Car came several years later, but with only two seats.

The old Fiat 500 is one of the supporting characters in Pixar's movie Cars (Luigi). The creators decided to use a vehicle that is/was almost completely unknown in the US, but has had great success in Italy and many parts of Europe. The Fiat 126, designed in the 70's as a successor to the 500, was built years and years after it had stopped production in Italy in Fiat's Polish plants because it was cheap but rugged and could stand the bad roads in many Eastern European countries without breaking down all the time.

As psychobriggsy says, especially women will like the new 500, as will young people in dense areas. Ever since the 500 was launched two years ago in Italy, the sales of the Mini have dropped vertically. Hordes of 18-year-olds want the 500 when they get their license, and we have a quite long waiting list to have it (3 months, last time I checked), which is uncommon for small, cheap cars.

I have driven German for most of my driving life (VW and Audi), but had a Panda 4x4 as first car. It was loud and slow (1L 4-cyl engine with 50HP, top speed 75MPH) but it could almost climb up trees and walls because it was small and light with 4WD, making it near unstoppable in snow and mud. The new Panda 4x4 is a tiny SUV-type car that I bet many youngsters living in the countryside or in the mountains will like.

Right now I'm driving a Fiat Bravo, which is the same size as the current Golf, only a bit cheaper. The engine is an incredibly fun 1.6L turbo-diesel with 120HP, which runs some 500 miles on 13 gallons of fuel, mixed city and highway. BTW: we pay one gal of diesel $5.60 right now.

Have a look at fiat.com to see what's coming your way... I'm sure that many of the prejudices (Fix It Again... etc.) will be cleared when you see that, in this economic climate, smaller cars are the smarter choice to save money.


RE: Fail
By Iaiken on 1/26/2009 3:26:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I guess the record sales of Mini Coopers and Smart Cars (at least here in Chicago) doesn't mean anything. I know they are German, but most people still think the Mini is English-built, because...IT LOOKS ENGLISH.


Actually, MINIs ARE made in Brtain... The Swindon plant has been making body panels since the start and Oxford has always been the destination for final assembly. The only change has been the addition of the Hams Hall plant which replaced the Bazilian-made Tritec 1.6 i4 with a Prince 1.6 i4 instead. This allowed them to swap over to the same twin-turbo in the 206GTi instead of the less fuel-efficient Eaton M45 supercharger.

http://paultan.org/archives/2006/10/16/mini-produc...

Check your facts.


RE: Fail
By millerduck on 1/26/2009 2:15:04 PM , Rating: 1
Keep in mind that there is a large portion of the American Auto Consuming population that will have no idea that these cars originated as Fiat product. Chrysler/Dodge will re-brand them with more appropriate names and will quite likely modify the exterior styling before release.

By the time these hit the market, this story will be long cold and the dealers are unlikely to remind people of the Italian origin of these cars. If Chrysler lives that long...

MD


RE: Fail
By lagomorpha on 1/26/2009 3:41:31 PM , Rating: 2
Very true. Just as many people will know these cars are Italian as will know that the Aveo is Korean. If Chrysler survives that long.


RE: Fail
By cubdukat on 1/26/2009 3:01:00 PM , Rating: 1
Um, no?

I highly disagree. Maybe a little more foreign competition would be just what the US auto industry needs to become relevant again.

And BTW, we sorta already have a French car in this country--it's called the Nissan Versa. Its underpinnings are very similar to the Renault Clio (the latest incarnation of what was once the Renault 5/LeCar). Quite frankly, if they could engineer out the obnoxious body roll and butt-ugly styling, I wouldn't mind having a pure-bred French car back in circulation in this country.


RE: Fail
By V3ctorPT on 1/26/2009 3:14:44 PM , Rating: 2
That is really not even close to a Clio...

Renault Clio II -> http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:h6V7RzgdlqVTWM...

Renault Clio III -> http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:BSly57FshpxBPM...


RE: Fail
By cubdukat on 1/26/2009 4:50:13 PM , Rating: 2
Styling-wise, no, but mechanically, yes.


RE: Fail
By Athena on 1/26/2009 3:33:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is little or no interest/market for Italian cars here in the US. Just as there is no market for French cars, Spanish cars, English cars, etc.
Just as there was no market for Korean cars...until Hyundai and Kia studied the market and produced automobiles for a customer set that was being ignored by both Detroit and Japan. In 1960, there wasn't much market for German cars either.

quote:
American consumers just don't like the same kind of styling, that's all.
I guess that's why the top 3 passenger cars sold in the US are not manufactured by any of the "big 3".

The point is, US car makers really don't have a clue about what American customers want. The financial whizzes in Detroit go after flash and quick money, ignoring the long term. While Detroit executives focus on customers whose tastes are in snyc with their own, importers focus on finding out what it is the "others" want and meet those needs. GM executive Bob Lutz sneered at the Camry styling and ignored the fact that incremental improvements based on customer feedback have enabled Toyota to hold the title for best selling automobile in the country for the past 11 years . He also dismissed alternative fuels and let Honda and Toyota get out in front of the hybrid trend.

The current Fiats may not save Chrysler but if they follow the path of other imports and keep their eyes on the customer, they will eventually take more market share from GM and Ford. US automakers currently have less than 49% of the US market; turned up noses don't do anything for the bottom line.

Anyone who is really interested in understanding what has been going on should quit rathionalizing and read Micheline Maynard's book The End of Detroit: How the Big Three Lost Their Grip on the American Car Market


RE: Fail
By Raidin on 1/26/2009 5:35:23 PM , Rating: 1
Agreed. No one here wants or is interested in crappy Italian Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Bugattis, Aston Martins, Jaguars, Bentleys, or Rolls Royces. The US only cares about Japanese, German, and American cars.


RE: Fail
By Samus on 1/27/2009 2:00:35 AM , Rating: 2
I hope you are being sarcastic. lol.


Increase gas prices
By Whaaambulance on 1/26/09, Rating: -1
RE: Increase gas prices
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 2:32:57 PM , Rating: 2
If you look at gas prices in a historical context, they have been low for decades now in the US. What would be dumb is to assume that gas prices will always be high based on them spiking for a few months or a year.

If anything, the current recession is all but a guarantee of low gas prices through the next year.


RE: Increase gas prices
By omnicronx on 1/26/2009 3:24:39 PM , Rating: 2
The Economy is down, and the US really has no control over the worlds oil supplies. One would think that once the economy gets better, that gas prices will raise.. and thats only if opec and other oil controlling nations decide not to decrease production beforehand.(which has already happened.. which resulted in the tiny spike in oil prices the past few weeks)


RE: Increase gas prices
By TomZ on 1/26/2009 3:31:02 PM , Rating: 1
I agree - after the recession, gas prices will return from what is currently "historically low" back to "historically normal." And remember, Americans have not had a big appetite for small cars all the time that gas prices were "historically normal."

That's why I only see a money-loosing opportunity for Fiat here. Sure, they sell limited quantities into niche markets like Smart and Mini are, but I don't see them being big sellers here at all.


RE: Increase gas prices
By FITCamaro on 1/26/2009 4:55:05 PM , Rating: 2
No what they care about is buying what they want. If you can afford to drive a large SUV regardless of what gas prices are, who is anyone to that person that they shouldn't be allowed to drive one? Now if you're stupid and you buy an SUV because you can afford gas at $2/gallon but at $3/gallon you won't be able to pay all your bills, then that's your problem and you have no one to blame but yourself.


RE: Increase gas prices
By JediJeb on 1/26/2009 5:49:43 PM , Rating: 2
Or buying when you can afford. I drive a 96 F150, but even when gas was at $4/gallon I could still afford to drive it compared to buying a more fuel efficient car. At that price I was spending $120/month on fuel, unless I could get a car that I could make about a $80/month payment on I would have lost money on the purchase. Now with gas at $2/gallon I would have to find a car I could buy for about $40 per month to not lose money. If someone wants to make a car at that price range I will happily buy it.


RE: Increase gas prices
By RSutcliffe on 1/26/2009 6:09:16 PM , Rating: 1
This is a last ditch attempt by a failing company. I don't think many people would have guessed that Chrysler would have sold off a 35% stake in itself for a little R&D advantage from a company like Fiat. It is too late for them to start researching fuel economy now so they have to whore themselves to foreign companies.


RE: Increase gas prices
By walk2k on 1/26/2009 7:48:34 PM , Rating: 2
So in your opinion people should be allowed to drive Sherman effing tanks on public roads then?

No, if you drive on public roads you are bound by the laws designed to protect the health and safety of those who pay for them - ie OTHER people (a concept I'm sure you lack understanding of, based on your consitantly selfish and self-righteous attitude around here).

There are several reasons why people shouldn't be "allowed" to drive ever larger and larger trucks and SUVs on public roads.

Just a few are:

- Public health, pollution from emissions ends up in the air and water.

- Safety, larger vehicles do not handle as well and take longer to stop than smaller ones, causing more accidents and more damage when they get into accidents. Larger and taller vehicles also block the view of other drivers. Their headlights are also higher and shine into other drivers' eyes.

- Road wear, heavier vehicles destroy public roads faster than lighter ones, costing taxpayers more money to repave them.

- Last but not least, oil. Yes oil, you see oil (and gasoline) is a commodity. That means everyone pays the same price, no matter what kind of car you drive. Sure when you drive a guzzler, you pay more at the pump to fill it up, but SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE. You see, when demand (consumption) goes up, the price goes up, FOR EVERYONE not just you. Economics 101.

Now I'm not saying people shouldn't be "allowed" to drive large trucks/SUVs exactly. What should happen though is #1 end the goverment "subidy" of these vehicles by forcing them to adhere to the same safety & fuel economy standards as other passenger vehicles. If automakers can create SUVs that adhere to the same standards that they SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALL ALONG then fine. They will cost more, but if people still "WANT" them as you say, they can have them.. And #2 increase the license fees especially for SUVs (not so much pickups, if you are in the trades) to make up for the extra costs they incur taxpayers.


RE: Increase gas prices
By Reclaimer77 on 1/26/2009 8:11:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
- Public health, pollution from emissions ends up in the air and water.


CO2 is NOT a poison. And not even environmentalist can make a case that our water supply is being poisoned by SUV's.

You fail on this comment alone. Try being something besides a liberal shill once in a while. You hate SUV's, fine. But you make yourself look silly when you pull out BS to try and demonize those who own them.


RE: Increase gas prices
By MadMan007 on 1/27/2009 12:33:58 AM , Rating: 2
Actually you fail, and pretty well along the line toward epically, because no where in the quote nor at all in the post for that matter did he mention CO2 in particular.

I guess you couldn't debate any of his other points and even failed with the one you chose to quote.


RE: Increase gas prices
By FITCamaro on 1/26/2009 11:16:15 PM , Rating: 2
Larger vehicles pay more for road maintenance through the very act of buying more gas.

As far as accidents, that's a personal responsibility issue, not a automaker one.

And the headlights argument is just retarded. I hate it just as much as you do but it doesn't ever cross my mind to prevent more SUVs from coming onto the road.


RE: Increase gas prices
By Spuke on 1/27/2009 6:49:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And #2 increase the license fees especially for SUVs (not so much pickups, if you are in the trades) to make up for the extra costs they incur taxpayers.
If you're going to increase fees for SUV's then you must do it for trucks too. All of the large, hated SUV's are on the same platforms and use the same engines, etc as trucks. And trucks are sold in MUCH higher numbers than their SUV counterparts.

Trucks = Spots 1 and 2 on the US top 10 sellers.
Large SUV's = Not even on the top 10. I don't even think it's in the top 20. Take the Chevy pickup's (forget the GMC version) sales and divide by 4 to get the best selling large SUV's sales (Chevy Tahoe).


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