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Print 168 comment(s) - last by Mojo the Monke.. on May 25 at 2:34 PM

The cartoon South Park frequently depicted Mohammed (center, right) in its early days, but parent station Comedy Central now censors the depiction after growing pressure from radical Muslims.  (Source: South Park Studios/Comedy Central)

Now Pakistan has teamed up against Facebook, banning the site for user-generated depictions of Mohammed.  (Source: C News World)
Pakistanis aren't going to be getting Facebook messages anytime soon

In the internet censorship war, major internet firms like Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, and Facebook constantly struggle with the at-time seemingly irrational demands of volatile foreign nations.  Lately China has been getting the lion's share of the censorship criticism for kicking Google out of the country.  However, another major hot-bed of internet censorship is the Middle East.

Middle East news network Al Jazeera reports that this week Pakistan banned Facebook after a group was formed called "Draw Mohammed Day". The group encouraged a "contest" of drawing caricatures of Mohammed, the highest prophet in the religion Islam.  

The ruling was handed down directly from Pakistan's Lahore High Court and instructed thePakistani Telecommunications Authority (PTA) which controls the nation's internet traffic to cut off the blasphemous social networking site.  On Thursday Khurram Mehran, a spokesperson for the PTA, commented, "We have already blocked the URL link and issued instruction to internet service providers."

The ban is temporary and will be followed by a full hearing on May 31, at which time the PTA will share its viewpoint on the ban.  It looks, though, like the prevailing sentiment among government officials may be to push for a permanent ban.

Lawyers in Pakistan have been among the most vehement anti-Facebook groups after the news broke.  Lawyer Chaudhry Zulfikar Ali comments, "The [Facebook] competition has hurt the sentiments of the Muslims."

Facebook has 45 million users in Pakistan.  As of yesterday users could still reach the page, according to the AFP.  Apparently the Mohammed-themed group had been blocked, but PTA officials were still working to block the site as a whole.

The group "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" received 40,000 fans on Facebook, while an opposition group "Against Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" had 53,000 fans at last count.

The incident reckons back to the recent South Park scuffle in which the censored depiction of the Mohammed dressed in a bear costume, still offended radical Muslims so much that the site RevolutionMuslim.com issued a death threat against the show's creators Matt Stone and Trey Parker.  The site wrote, "We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show.  This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them."

The radical interpretation of Islam that prevails in much of the Middle East considers it blasphemy and a crime to depict Mohammed in images.  Pakistan has previously blocked YouTube over similar concerns.

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Sheesh
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/20/2010 9:24:19 AM , Rating: 5
Overreact much? I mean, South Park rips on Jesus all the time. You might have a few people getting upset about it, and you get a few officials that go complain to Matt Lauer about it on the Today Show... but that's about it.

But man, you simply draw a picture of Mohammed and it's the equivalent of nuking a village full of newborn babies.




RE: Sheesh
By Ristogod on 5/20/2010 9:28:07 AM , Rating: 5
Would you expect any less from a religion full of radical unreasonable fanatics?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Sheesh
By Breathless on 5/20/2010 9:47:11 AM , Rating: 1
Yes, including yours.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 9:52:15 AM , Rating: 3
That'd be true if I had one.


RE: Sheesh
By Jellodyne on 5/20/2010 10:30:42 AM , Rating: 2
He probably also thinks "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.


RE: Sheesh
By quiksilvr on 5/20/2010 9:48:23 PM , Rating: 5
Okay I think I need to speak to my fellow Muslims and explain what I like to call, "LOGIC":

The reason why Prophet Muhammad didn't want images of himself in paintings was because of Prophet Issa (Jesus). Jesus tried to free people from idol worshiping and think with a more esoteric (mental) way of life. But thanks to greedy individuals that wanted to profit off Jesus' message, they (ironically) idolized him and made him a physical depiction of God, undermining everything that Prophet Issa was trying to accomplish.

To avoid this from happening again, Prophet Muhammad said, "NO IMAGES OF ME". And as a result, a majority of Muslims follow his teachings and not his image.

Okay, this is to all my fellow Muslims. Ahem: ITS BEEN OVER A THOUSAND FRIGGING YEARS! WE'RE NOT GOING TO START IDOLIZING HIM SIMPLY BECAUSE PEOPLE START DRAWING HIM!

If you honestly believe that somewhere someone said that drawing an image of him sends you to Hell, go ahead, but DON'T EVER IMPOSE YOUR BELIEFS ON OTHER PEOPLE or BAN IT just because it doesn't go with your way of thinking. Keep it to yourself, and stfu.

Rant over.


RE: Sheesh
By LRonaldHubbs on 5/20/2010 9:58:23 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you, sir, for a sharing a reasonable opinion on the matter. Quoted for emphasis:

quote:
DON'T EVER IMPOSE YOUR BELIEFS ON OTHER PEOPLE or BAN IT just because it doesn't go with your way of thinking. Keep it to yourself, and stfu.


I agree completely. This applies to EVERYONE .


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/23/2010 2:10:00 AM , Rating: 2
Including atheism? 8]


RE: Sheesh
By LRonaldHubbs on 5/24/2010 8:10:59 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure how to receive your comment. Everyone means everyone, religious, atheist, whatever. Government should be belief-neutral; separation of church (or anti-church) and state.


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/24/2010 3:14:09 PM , Rating: 2
I do not see "separation of church and state" in the Constitution, Barry Lynn and company notwithstanding. Our country was founded, in part, by opposition to gov't interference in church affairs. I'm not sure if the church could influence gov't negatively, that is, in the context of competing against the level of union influence we see now....

As to everyone not imposing their beliefs... naive, at best. Beliefs are going to be imposed [especially when you say you aren't]. I personally try to be reasonable. I'm not sure that's what leadership is about though.


RE: Sheesh
By Etsp on 5/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 1:44:47 PM , Rating: 5
Religion requires belief/faith without evidence or in spite of contradictory evidence. Atheists don't believe in anything without evidence, so it's not a religion.

You cannot label logic and reason as religion.


RE: Sheesh
By ClownPuncher on 5/20/2010 2:00:39 PM , Rating: 5
Well, to be fair, they believe that God does not exist. If you're meaning Agnostics, we are different than Athiests. We are not convinced there is enough data to rule out the possibility at the same time aknowledging a lack of evidence to prove it outright.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 2:14:33 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Well, to be fair, they believe that God does not exist.

That is not accurate. Not believing there is a God isn't the same thing as believing there is no God. There is a difference between the two, the second requires an active act of "believing" in something, while the first is just the lack of a belief. I am the former, not the latter.


RE: Sheesh
By ClownPuncher on 5/20/2010 2:24:51 PM , Rating: 2
Ah, implicit Athiesm rather than explicit. I tend to lump you in with Agnostics, perhaps incorrectly.


RE: Sheesh
By BansheeX on 5/20/2010 7:35:58 PM , Rating: 2
I would argue that there is evidence to disbelieve in a certain type of god. Most major religions believe in a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent god who intervenes to reward goodness and penalize badness. How many times have we seen people attribute a lucky break to divine intervention while completely ignoring things like babies being born with fatal defects?

Since babies are without sin, religions try to argue that we are born with the sins of our fathers, so everyone is fair game. But we as society have advanced our concept of justice to exclude punishing kin for the sins of their fathers, and an omniscient God cannot know less than us. And why, too, would the level of suffering or age afflicted vary so wildly? There is seemingly no proportion between the level of sin and the amount of punishment doled out to you. If you then argue that the afterlife is where said proportion will realign, then why both a world of flesh and an ethereal world? Why not just skip the flesh part and start everything off ethereal? Two worlds is too arbitrary of a decision for an omnipotent god to make.

So either god is not benevolent or willing or all-powerful or all-knowing. One of those has to be false, and that makes the Christian and Muslim gods impossible.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 7:11:15 PM , Rating: 2
That made absolutely 100% no sense at all...


RE: Sheesh
By xmichaelx on 5/20/2010 3:47:50 PM , Rating: 2
Buddhists also believe that God does not exist. Are they also atheists?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 4:01:39 PM , Rating: 2
Buddhists believe in reincarnation and karma, for which there is no evidence. So no, they're not Atheists.


RE: Sheesh
By Stacey Melissa on 5/20/2010 8:16:18 PM , Rating: 2
Being an atheist just means not believing in the existence of any deities. It doesn't say anything at all about belief in other superstitions. So the Buddhists who don't believe in deities qualify as atheists.


RE: Sheesh
By Mojo the Monkey on 5/25/2010 2:34:53 PM , Rating: 2
You do not have to use the word "god" to define your concept of a spiritual force to be called religious. Many different religions, and religious sub-philosophies, would argue endlessly over whether the other can call their idea "god."

If you go WAY back, even the most established semitic religions, who now depict their spirituality with fable characters with emotions and caricatures, believed in something much more cerebral - not some angry dude. More of a "there's something connecting us" thing.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 3:39:52 PM , Rating: 2
First, there is absolutely no evidence of there being a God any more than evidence of me having an invisible and undetectable dragon in my garage. If you believe in God, then you must also believe that I have an invisible, undetectable dragon in my garage, because the evidence for either case isn't based on the physical world we live in, nor it fits logic or reason.

Next, are you suggesting that I believe in God just in case, as an afterlife insurance policy? Is your all-powerful God lacking the ability to know when someone's sincere in their belief or not?


RE: Sheesh
By brandonicus on 5/20/2010 6:21:32 PM , Rating: 4
I don't know about you guys, but I believe in the Church of His Holiness the Invisible and Almighty Undetectable Garage Dragon.


RE: Sheesh
By TheBigBadGRIM on 5/20/2010 10:54:29 PM , Rating: 1
This comment is full of win. Best thing I've read in this page.


RE: Sheesh
By pwnsweet on 5/20/2010 10:29:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
First, there is absolutely no evidence of there being a God any more than evidence of me having an invisible and undetectable dragon in my garage.


This statement is so flawed that it is borderline blasphemy. If you have the balls to find out why (and I suspect you don't - after all, ignorance is bliss right?), download the first few clips in this legal torrent and watch them:

http://isohunt.com/download/137772877/Dimensions+o...


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/21/2010 8:32:48 AM , Rating: 2
Please come back when you have something with scientific proof. Otherwise it's as valid as the invisible garage dragon.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 8:40:25 AM , Rating: 1
So it's not credible unless you say it is? See the revolving door here? You will NEVER accept any kind of "evidence" no matter what it is, or where it came from.

Close minded much?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/21/2010 9:29:44 AM , Rating: 2
As long as it's scientific evidence, I'll accept it.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 9:31:41 AM , Rating: 2
There are literally TONS of credible scientists out there with publications on this subject. Have you studied some?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/21/2010 9:38:09 AM , Rating: 3
Really now? Show me a theory that's experimentally verified and shows the existence of a God. Show me the physics behind the parting of the red sea.


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/23/2010 2:13:58 AM , Rating: 2
go find the computer simulation. lazy?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/23/2010 6:44:10 PM , Rating: 2
Burden of proof is on the one who says "there's a god," not on the one who says "there is no proof on the existence of god." You, being indoctrinated with antique religious dogma since your birth, seem to have lost the basic reasoning skills to understand this concept.


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/24/2010 1:06:09 AM , Rating: 2
hahaha

ROTFLOL


RE: Sheesh
By Steve1981 on 5/21/2010 8:48:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
First, there is absolutely no evidence of there being a God any more than evidence of me having an invisible and undetectable dragon in my garage.


Well that depends on how you define the term "God". If you mean there is no evidence of God as portrayed in the bible, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

However, if you believe in nothing at all, ie that this universe is some random series of occurrences, I'd say you need to look a little more closely at the world around you. To borrow a few words from a great mind

quote:
We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.


RE: Sheesh
By clovell on 5/21/2010 1:38:12 PM , Rating: 2
> If you believe in God, then you must also believe that I have an invisible, undetectable dragon in my garage, because the evidence for either case isn't based on the physical world we live in, nor it fits logic or reason.

Actually, no I don't. My logic (which I have the utmost faith in its fundamental rules, just as you have with yours) allows me to let other folks have opinions that are different from mine. I'll stick to my spaghetti monster, and you can have a good time w/ your dragon.

Seriously, what fun a is dragon that never comes out of your garage?


RE: Sheesh
By Calindar on 5/20/2010 3:41:17 PM , Rating: 5
Why waste the life you know you have with a religion you believe exists? If your wrong, you wasted the only life you had. If the agnostic is wrong, he has to deal with a God. Would a just God punish someone for not praising them even if they were a good person? Why would a god be so egotistical? Seems the safe bet is to enjoy what you have.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Sheesh
By ClownPuncher on 5/20/2010 4:55:32 PM , Rating: 3
Why? Is this life not good enough for you?


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Sheesh
By dark matter on 5/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Sheesh
By ClownPuncher on 5/21/2010 1:50:01 PM , Rating: 1
All I did was ask a simple, legitimate question. I'm not an athiest by any stretch and I offered no opinion in my question. I ask these questions in order to better understand and respect what others believe in. I feel everyone has a right to believe whatever they want to.

I think your anger in misdirected.


RE: Sheesh
By HostileEffect on 5/21/2010 12:12:10 AM , Rating: 2
You are saying that trying to help others and trying to live a decent and morally structured life is wasting it?

...


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 8:33:24 AM , Rating: 2
Yep, that's exactly what he's saying. I'm starting to see this attitude a lot more these days.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/21/2010 8:34:27 AM , Rating: 2
No, but you don't need any religion for that.
Going to churches/mosques is definitely just a waste of the limited time a person has.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 9:18:05 AM , Rating: 1
So... let me get this right...

People who go to church, follow Gods laws (the best they can, no one is perfect), and live morally just lives that are defined by God are all wasting time?

How do you decide what is right and wrong? If everyone did that without some sort of guidance, do you know where the world would be right now lol?

You live with the belief in nothing if you want to, but take a step back and realize that you downing others actually have the courage and humility to accept a higher and more powerful being. In a sense, I am alluding to the fact that you think you are the God of your own universe; which is the epitome of selfishness and arrogance. Good day.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/21/2010 9:35:33 AM , Rating: 2
Spending your life living a lie is not a good use of time in my opinion. You don't need to go to church to live a moral life.

If people would use their brains more, maybe we'd have more progress in science and philosophy. All the money spent on churches would be better spent in research.

It takes more courage to accept that this life is all you have and still have good morals without the fear of godly punishment. Thinking all the universe was created just for us is selfishness, humility is the courage to accept that we're just intelligent animals, nothing more.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 3:47:54 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You don't need to go to church to live a moral life.


Without orders from a higher power you end up with things like Hitlers Holocaust. He was a devout atheist and evolutionist who believed he could exterminate people at will; just because he felt like it. Yep! That's what our world needs; a world full of lawless people.

quote:
we're just intelligent animals, nothing more.

For the record, that's just YOUR opinion. And I'll say again just to concrete it; OPINION. If you are an animal then you should accept being treated as one :) good luck with that sir!


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/21/2010 4:17:31 PM , Rating: 2
There were(and still are) many devout Christians and Muslims (and others) who think they can exterminate people at will. Just look at the latest suicide bombing or abortion doctor shooting.

There are also many atheists who don't need a God, or antiquated books on antiquated belief systems, to know that murder is wrong. Thus, your logic and feeble attempt to equate atheists with Hitler fails.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 7:16:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
There were(and still are) many devout Christians and Muslims (and others) who think they can exterminate people at will. Just look at the latest suicide bombing or abortion doctor shooting.


First off, the Muslim Bible orders followers to kill infidels.

Second, those who were doing those things that you mentioned were breaking at least one of the ten commandments lol. So your counter argument is that a Christian that broke their very own laws is one to be set as an example for all Christians? You are a moron.


RE: Sheesh
By clovell on 5/21/2010 1:41:25 PM , Rating: 2
> No, but you don't need any religion for that.
Going to churches/mosques is definitely just a waste of the limited time a person has.

Maybe to you it is, but to them it's not. Why can't you accept that some folks are happy with religion and leave it alone? You sound a bit like a fudamental aetheist.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/21/2010 4:12:38 PM , Rating: 2
First of all, I'd defend the constitution with my life, which includes the freedom of religion. People are free to practice whatever religion they want. I also have the freedom to criticise them all I want too, since that's freedom of speech.

However, to advance as a species as humans, we need to evolve and see the silliness of believing in ancient books of faith. Even today, religion serves to hold back progress, maybe not so much in the US and EU, but a lot in other parts of the world. Did you see the National Geographic photos of 12-13 year old girls posing next to their 60 year old husbands in Afghanistan?


RE: Sheesh
By clovell on 5/21/2010 5:10:14 PM , Rating: 2
You'll get no arguement from me there. It just seemed like the back-and-forth was getting pretty long-winded.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/21/2010 7:20:28 PM , Rating: 2
I think your freedom of speech stopped where it called for the abolition of my freedom of religion and religious expression :)


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/22/2010 9:45:25 AM , Rating: 2
No one in the USA prevents you from practicing your religion or expressing yourself as long as it's not disruptive. However I can draw pictures of anything I want, just because it's against your religion, you don't have the right to stop me, since I'm the one doing it. What's next, you're going to prevent me from drinking my beer and eating my pepperoni pizza?


RE: Sheesh
By Steve1981 on 5/22/2010 10:00:12 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What's next, you're going to prevent me from drinking my beer and eating my pepperoni pizza?


Yup. Eating meat contributes to global warming, you b@stard!

/sarcasm


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/22/2010 6:10:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even today, religion serves to hold back progress, ...


In your opinionated statement, you suggest the abolition of religion.

quote:
However I can draw pictures of anything I want, just because it's against your religion, you don't have the right to stop me, since I'm the one doing it.


When did I say anything close to that? Moreover, if you go back and look at the laws of freedom of speech, you will find that slander is not covered. Whether or not mocking religious figures is considered slander is another subject.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/23/2010 6:48:14 PM , Rating: 2
It's a logical statement, not an opinionated one. Just look at how long it took for modern astronomy. That's an indisputable fact.

Mocking religious figures is no different than mocking Batman, Spiderman, Iron Man, etc. All of their superpowers are fictional.


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/23/2010 2:17:58 AM , Rating: 2
define "species" if you please.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/23/2010 6:29:41 PM , Rating: 2
Homo Sapiens


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/24/2010 1:12:44 AM , Rating: 2
Do you have proof Homo sapiens has evolved? Transitional forms perhaps?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/24/2010 9:01:16 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, there are tons of proof of other species before Homo Sapiens. For a start, you can check the Wikipedia entry for links to scientific studies on human evolution and homo Sapiens.

You can also visit the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History in Washington DC and see the various skeletons from various times on display and see the difference yourself, as you may or may not know, it's free just like the rest of museums in DC.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/24/2010 11:31:50 AM , Rating: 2
You mean the same Smithsonian that still displays several exhibits that have been proven to be falsified representations of evolution?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/24/2010 12:05:45 PM , Rating: 2
Proven by who exactly? Was it published in Science/Nature or a similar magazine?


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/25/2010 1:50:45 PM , Rating: 2
You are nothing short of a complete moron.


RE: Sheesh
By Rhaido on 5/20/2010 2:03:12 PM , Rating: 2
Pure sophistry.

"To hold, therefore, that there is no difference in matters of religion between forms that are unlike each other, and even contrary to each other, most clearly leads in the end to the rejection of all religion in both theory and practice. And this is the same thing as atheism, however it may differ from it in name." [Pope Leo XIII, Immortale Dei, 1885]


RE: Sheesh
By thatmikeguy on 5/20/2010 2:52:15 PM , Rating: 2
I am what you may call religious, but I personally do not think there is such thing. If "religion" is simply "believing" in something, or some group of things, then everyone has a religion, something that they do or do not believe in because of "something". That something can only be what they believe in anyway. People need no outlying reason to start war, people need no reason to act these ways, but they do. This is simply because they CHOOSE to, and everything thereafter is an excuse. We all have choices, make enough bad ones and it gets more difficult to turn things around.


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/2010 10:12:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Any religion is full of radical unreasonable fanatics by definition.


Ignoring your obvious troll, let's just say some are far more radical and unreasonable than others.

Jesus Christ is drawn all the time in cartoons etc etc. Usually in an unfavorable light. And nobody has been murdered over it.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Sheesh
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 10:23:51 AM , Rating: 2
But you have to agree, chili craps smell the best! (they almost smell as good as it did when you ate it.)


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Sheesh
By Bioniccrackmonk on 5/20/2010 10:52:27 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Not interested.


Really, then why did you reply?


RE: Sheesh
By Gzus666 on 5/20/2010 11:32:41 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
And it's really offensive to handicapped people.


Such as yourself it would seem, your grammar is atrocious. I find it odd that you can't accept simple analogies no matter how relevant.

quote:
Sorry I'm clearly wasting my time with you.You lack the basic maturity to competently discuss this.


...he says ironically.


RE: Sheesh
By MadMan007 on 5/20/2010 12:05:28 PM , Rating: 4
I agree, using the 'hanidcapped olympics' argument is retarded.


RE: Sheesh
By T2k on 5/20/2010 11:48:55 AM , Rating: 1
God, you are indeed a TRUE RETARD, corduroygt, incapable to think logical even at a basic level...

...WTF has to do idiotic, hysterical extreme Muslim fundies of TODAY with hysterical extreme Christian fundies of MEDIEVAL AGE?

Or you're arguing that these idiotic, stupid, extreme Muslim fundies in Pakistan are ~500 years behind US, Christians?
If so then I'd say you are overreacting...


RE: Sheesh
By Gzus666 on 5/20/2010 10:28:27 AM , Rating: 1
Oh how we forget our history. Did someone forget all the blasphemy laws of old? I know quite a few people were executed for proposing things against the bible, or do we just pretend the Inquisition never happened? How wonderful Christians were (and still are I might add...).

Basically Islam is just following in the footsteps of Christians. Radicals are in every religion, as fanaticism and blind faith is taught to be a virtue by all god based religions. Then throw in the fact that most of the leaders are sociopaths and you get things like this.


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/2010 10:43:29 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Oh how we forget our history.


No, I just fail to see how it applies to this discussion. Christianity is not on trial here, radical Islam is. Christians are not causing the media's around the world to become gutless scared appeasers. The media should challenge ANY attempt to infringe on freedom of speech and a right to free press. It's not Christians causing this, idiot.

Ask yourself, if there are all these radical Christians around these days, why isn't the media as equally afraid of showing Jesus/God ?? Do all their death threats and bomb threats just get ignored and they only pay attention to the Muslim ones?? Remember the art exhibit (I use the term art loosely) of a statue of Mary in a jar of elephant urine?? Why didn't Christians blow up the museum or murder the artist?

The answer to these questions are simple. Christianity is not a radical based religion. And the examples you brought up were HUMANS falsely representing the religion, perverting it, and using it toward their own goals. These are not the tenants of the religion and never were.

Muhammad, on the other hand, routinely advocated for the torture and death of non believers. Go find me where Jesus preached that. Islam, by it's very definition, is a radical religion. That's why statements like "Basically Islam is just following in the footsteps of Christians" are so biased and off base it's not even funny. Before any of those examples you brought up even happened, people were killing in the name of Islam. Read the Koran, it's all right there.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/2010 11:01:42 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
That is exactly the same excuse non-radical muslims use when you talk about the suicide bombings, 9/11, etc.


Yes except they are full of it. Their bible, the Koran, CLEARLY doesn't just support these acts but outright DEMANDS them. It calls for violence, murder, and barbarism toward anyone who won't convert to Islam. It's a duty so strict that fellow Muslims who don't commit these acts are also called out and subject to punishment!

A religion isn't defined by how people choose to represent it. It's defined by it's core beliefs, it's "bible", and the teachings of it's prophet/god. Comparing Jesus to Muhammad and the holy books of each religion isn't even a contest.

I'm not here telling you people from all kinds of religions can't commit terrible acts from time to time. But you are wrong about this, there IS a huge difference.


RE: Sheesh
By transamdude95 on 5/20/2010 11:41:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Their bible, the Koran, CLEARLY doesn't just support these acts but outright DEMANDS them. It calls for violence, murder, and barbarism toward anyone who won't convert to Islam.


You are completely wrong. I suggest you do your homework before making statements like these. Nowhere in the koran is murder demanded for those who won't convert. There are verses that have been manipulated as such, however, this has happened with many religions, christianity being a prime example.

Check out Luke 19:26-27


RE: Sheesh
By usju on 5/20/2010 12:06:47 PM , Rating: 4
I second that. We must differentiate between the so-called "radical" islam from the unadulterated islam which is described in the Quran. The term "fundamentalist" should refer to a person who follows the fundamental principles of islam as mentioned in the Quran, and makes sense of the saying that Islam is a religion of peace.
Alas nowadays fundamentalist is a term given to groups who justify terrorism by misquoting the Quran.


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/2010 12:21:56 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
You are completely wrong. I suggest you do your homework before making statements like these. Nowhere in the koran is murder demanded for those who won't convert.


"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

I suggest YOU do homework. Disbelief in Allah isn't considered a "sin", it is considered the WORST crime a human could possibly commit. Verses 33:61, 4:76, 4:89-91, 8:12, 9:41, 9:5, 9:29, 61:11, etc etc specifically orders the killing of various kinds of disbelievers. The Koran is quite explicit that disbelief is a persecution worse than warfare and killing. That's right, murder is actually a lesser crime than not believing in Allah.

Over 250 separate verses in the Koran condemn non-Muslims to hell-fire/eternal torture and doom. They can't ALL be manipulated or paraphrased. Give me a break! It outright calls for people to be beheaded.


RE: Sheesh
By v9s on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Sheesh
By v9s on 5/20/2010 1:24:19 PM , Rating: 1
(3) Whenever attacked, defend yourselves;

As much as any civilized nation would do, e.g. USA today, God gave the believers the right to defend themselves if resorting to peaceful means did not work out and they are still attacked, as we clearly see in 47:4. This verse deals with a war situation, in a situation where the believers are under attack.
[47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

Some expressed concerns about the allegorical expression of "strike the necks". It is an indication of the severity of the war and the attacks where the believers should not save any means of legitimate weapon to defeat those who attacked them. Those who watched the America bombing of the terrorists in Afghanistan using all that the American arsenal has would understand this expression.

Again in self defense God commands,

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

As we again learn from this verse and the other verses, the fighting only occurs when being aggressed against.

(4) Fighting in the cause of God;
[4:75] Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."

Those who believe fight in the cause of God. What that means is that they fight according to God’s commandments . God’s commandments forbids aggression, calls for peace but allows self defense. God’s commandments tells us that there shall be no compulsion in religion, His commandments tells us that we should offer maximum freedom and equal rights to all people, regardless of their belief or lifestyle. Those who disbelieve on the other hand, they fight in the cause of Tyranny: oppression, dictatorship, domination, autocracy, despotism, absolutism, cruelty, totalitarianism.

[4:76] Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.

(5) Non military Fighting in the cause of God;

In principle, the believers want to have guaranteed freedom, freedom of worship for them and for all those who live with them, freedom of expression, freedom of trade and move. The freedom to be treated equally in the land with no discrimination as a result of color, age, gender or beliefs.

Fighting in the cause of God therefore does not have to be a military fighting but the student of the Quran will strongly realize that such military fighting should be the exception. A very important teaching in the Quran is to strife to be strong, not to be an aggressor ,but to prevent others from aggressing against you.

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

All the powers in our world today, USA, etc are somewhat following this rule. None of the so called "Muslim" countries have been able to follow his rule as they have deserted most of the Quranic rules (i.e. just because it's in Saudi Arabia, it does not necessarily mean it's according to the Quran).


RE: Sheesh
By SoulBlighter on 5/20/2010 1:41:30 PM , Rating: 1
Mr. Reclaimer77

Your translation is nothing but misguided sentences, twisted rather being en light and get the detail the reasoning and very true meaning of the mentioned Verses.

quote:
"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)


Please refine yourself from misquoting and manipulating with words to make complete and utter different meaning than you showed here. I am re-translating same Verses as you described here

[47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

[9:73] O you prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern in dealing with them. Their destiny is Hell; what a miserable abode!

Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."

Its a lot easy to point finger on any religions rather than to study and understand what they truly mean.
As for me, I condom any acts against to make fun or abuse Anyone's religion, either its Islam, Christianity, Hindu, Jewish etc, etc etc.

By the way, that is what my religion taught me.


RE: Sheesh
By usju on 5/22/2010 10:31:54 AM , Rating: 2
Quoting corduroygt

quote:
Religion requires belief/faith without evidence or in spite of contradictory evidence. ...There is absolutely no evidence of there being a God any more than evidence of me having an invisible and undetectable dragon in my garage...


The evidence of religion is right there. You fail to see it.
Just google "how to scientifically prove that Allah exists". There are even youtube videos.

quote:
to advance as a species as humans, we need to evolve and see the silliness of believing in ancient books of faith

----------------------------
Quoting Reclaimer77
quote:
Their bible, the Koran, CLEARLY doesn't just support these acts but outright DEMANDS them. It calls for violence, murder, and barbarism toward anyone who won't convert to Islam.


Who told you THAT? Islam, like all other religions, believes that it is the ONLY true religion. It goes one step forward and outlines methods to call other people to Islam, (BECAUSE it says it is the true religion). It is the duty of every fellow muslim to educate others and call them to the faith because otherwise on the day of resurrection the non-muslims will say to God "What was our fault that we didnt believe? No one told us". Muslims are instructed to occupy non-muslim nations so as to spread Islamic rule. The reason is that if a nation is ruled my (righteous) islamic rulers it will be an added advantage for the muslims as they will not be prevented from spreading their religion. This is the reason islamic rulers were so keen to expand their empires(but they were probably greedy too...just that religion gave them the justification for their actions).
The Quran also instructs us to treat ---kindly---, those non-muslims under our rule who do not believe even after we have tried to convince them.That is so that they may be attracted to Islam atleast by seeing kind treatment.

The Quran DOES call for violence against those who ACTIVELY harm the Muslims. See what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not pointing fingers, but if a muslim believes he is being harmed, he will retaliate. The Quran instructs him to stand up against aggression.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/23/2010 6:33:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The evidence of religion is right there. You fail to see it. Just google "how to scientifically prove that Allah exists". There are even youtube videos.

You can't be serious, those videos are no more serious than what I could make titled "how to scientifically prove that Allah doesn't exist". No one in the scientific community takes it seriously, NO ONE. I meant valid and relevant scientific evidence from actual scientists, not charlatans.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 11:50:53 AM , Rating: 2
From the King James V Bible:

1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

You can argue that these are all out of context, but that's exactly what the Muslims argue, too. That the verses preaching killing, etc. are all taken out of context, etc.

I'm not denying that Islam is more radical, since Christianity had the benefit of the Reform movement in the 16th century, while Islam wasn't reformed, since the book itself says that it is final and cannot be altered.


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/2010 12:08:31 PM , Rating: 2
Why would you use the King James V bible?? It's the MOST controversial and least authentic one!

Oh.. I guess I answered my own question.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 12:14:10 PM , Rating: 2
Why is there more than one Bible, which one is a Christian supposed to follow? Are the followers of KJV bible going to hell?

As I said before, religion starts where reason ends.


RE: Sheesh
By T2k on 5/20/2010 3:20:28 PM , Rating: 1
There are more Koran than one, WTF are you asking?

Heck, idiots in Egypt etc are calling for censoring 1000 and 1 Nights from the next reprint... retards.


RE: Sheesh
By ClownPuncher on 5/20/2010 1:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't it also the most widely used and owned? Obviously authenticity and accuracy are determined subjectively by each reader, as there never has been an agreement on which Bible is the "real" one.


RE: Sheesh
By T2k on 5/20/2010 3:27:53 PM , Rating: 2
No, it's NOT.
How about using your brain? I know it's hard with US-educated mind but guess what, majority of Christians does not even speak English... shocking, uh?

Heck, up until very recent times Catholics - the biggest Christian denomination, y'know - used only Latin in ceremonies...


RE: Sheesh
By Stacey Melissa on 5/20/2010 8:48:57 PM , Rating: 2
He didn't use the KJV. He just cited verse numbers and provided his own paraphrases, all of which hold up in context and in every English translation I've read (which is quite a few). Except the cited NT verses, which can reasonably be taken as hyperbolic statements by Jesus.

I highly recommend reading your Bible, front to back, using whatever translation(s) you like best. It just might make an ex-Christian out of you. It did that for me. And even if it doesn't do that, it'll enrich your faith with a whole lot more nuance and knowledge.


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/21/2010 2:19:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I highly recommend reading your Bible, front to back, using whatever translation(s) you like best. It just might make an ex-Christian out of you.


Stacey I recommend you climb down off that rag and stop being so preachy. Again, I'm NOT a Christian. It just pisses me off when people insult them or claim they are somehow as "radical" as Islam. Freedom of religion is one of the, if not THE most, important tenants of our country.

Plus the radical atheist's on Daily Tech are pretty fun to argue with. All that anger and irrationality.


RE: Sheesh
By nuarbnellaffej on 5/22/2010 11:42:22 PM , Rating: 2
Anger and irrationality...? The atheists here all post polite rational comments, were as the theists are the ones saying things like - - "Stacey I recommend you climb down off that rag and stop being so preachy."

And come on, all he said was for people to read their bible...


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/23/2010 2:08:24 AM , Rating: 2
Man you are out-to-lunch.

Mark 7:9
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions!

Luke 19:22-27
His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' 25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' 26 "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

From 'The Parable of the Ten Minas'. It's a parable [Luke 19:11-27]. You admit you've taken it out of context, but you want to something more than to contort the meaning, no?

This is just fascinating ... and sloppy. You don't believe the OT or NT when it comes to atheism and evolution but now you believe it when you want to use it in an argument supporting your position?

I suppose the good news is that at least you're looking at the evidence.

While you're at it, perhaps check out Mark 12:28-31, where the 10 Commandments are actually summed into two.
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g] There is no commandment greater than these."


RE: Sheesh
By UzairH on 5/20/2010 1:50:24 PM , Rating: 1
I am a Muslim, and what you are saying is flat out wrong. You are simply repeating the words of the extremist-nihilistic thugs who have placed themselves in charge of Islam. The sad reality is that our religion is run by tribal yahoos rather than men of learning, nowhere more so than in the citadel of Islam, Saudi Arabia. The Koran does NOT condone violence except in self-defense, and even then there are rules of war (don't harm elderly, women, children etc, don't burn crops and trees...).

But, who gives a damn. All the world's a stage and we are fools playing our part. All I see is endless hate and intolerance from all sides. Fear of the Other. Fear of the Unknown. Whether it is practiced in the name of religion (Saudi Arabia, countless others, including sadly my country Pakistan, Presbyterians who believe in rapture and ascending to heaven at the cost of the lives of lesser races), or a political ideology (Nazism, KKK, hell - Fox News), hate and intolerance are ingrained in the human psyche.

God save us all. Or if you like, our rationality save us all. I just want to play my Crysis: Warhead and Metro 2033 in peace ;)


RE: Sheesh
By passionateleo on 5/20/2010 11:16:47 AM , Rating: 1
Quote:
Muhammad, on the other hand, routinely advocated for the torture and death of non believers. Go find me where Jesus preached that. Islam, by it's very definition, is a radical religion. That's why statements like "Basically Islam is just following in the footsteps of Christians" are so biased and off base it's not even funny. Before any of those examples you brought up even happened, people were killing in the name of Islam. Read the Koran, it's all right there.

Reply:
For your kind information, i would request you to please read the history of Islam starts with the meaning of Islam i.e Peace, religion of Peace. Have a look on the history and wars by Muslim Caliphs and Kings and the wars by Christian rulers, you will find an example where our Holy Prophet p.b.u.h instruct his army not to destroy homes, lands, agriculture, trees and not to hurt womens, kids. You will find in this era the American terrorism on Iraq, answer me where are the weapons of mass destruction on which America destroyed the Iraq by the grace of Allah Islam have the complete essence for life which helps to live a human a complete balance life. We dont need to follow the Christianity we have our own principles of life.


RE: Sheesh
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 11:23:58 AM , Rating: 4
Soooo Muhammad sleeping with a 9-year old was a peaceful act? How about burying women up to their necks when stoning them, versus burying men only up to their waists? That's peaceful for sure.

Or, how about honor killings for daughters who dishonor their fathers? That's peaceful too!

How about Ishmael being the wicked child of Abraham that was nothing but a thug?

How about this quote on him:

"That his descendants would live in hostility with all his brothers"
-- Genesis 16:11-13

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gen%20...

Peace? Yeah, right. Islam was doomed from the start to be the antithesis of "peace."


RE: Sheesh
By T2k on 5/20/2010 12:01:45 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Soooo Muhammad sleeping with a 9-year old was a peaceful act? How about burying women up to their necks when stoning them, versus burying men only up to their waists?


Well, the Judeo-Christian God-complex isn't much better but you are right, Islam is a completely FUCKED UP, PERVERT religion, this whole "peace" is a COMPLETE BS, it's there for smoke and mirror.
There are very peaceful Muslim people - eg Sufis - but it's only because they chose to ignoren the DISGUSTING PARTS of Islam which are truly reprehensible, dispecable and I am not talking about polygamy.
Islam is essentially advocating pretty much slavery for women, it's calling for COMPLETELY MEDIEVAL terms when it comes to male-female relationships, advertises pedophilia while it's utterly intolerant for any deviance, calling for physical destruction of everybody else - things that no modern society would ever tolerate.

Christianity = FUCKED UP, idiotic, conservative rules, typically excludes women from its ranks but advocating fairly decent things if you strip the BS Catholics and especially these modern-day retarded "reborn evangelical" cafeteria-fundie sects in the US added on top of it

Islam = FUCKED UP, PERVERT religion, an abomination at every level when it comes to family & society, opresses everyone except the most faithful males but interestingly enough here the smaller sects are the ones who try to make it into something decent, peaceful thing (unlike reborn retards of Christianity)


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/2010 11:24:37 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah well no offense, but we see how the so called "religion of peace" stays true to it's teachings on a daily basis, thank you.

quote:
We dont need to follow the Christianity we have our own principles of life.


Nobody ever said you had to. But why must others lay down their lives so you can live those principles?


RE: Sheesh
By michal1980 on 5/20/2010 11:34:34 AM , Rating: 2
so there were no woman or kids killed on 9/11?

p.s. the iraq war issues are much deeper then your simple mind can wrap around


RE: Sheesh
By passionateleo on 5/20/2010 12:28:37 PM , Rating: 1
So how many womens killed in 9/11? and who killed them? the americans proved that the twin towers destroyed by each flooring bombing not by the jet fuels. n who gave the liscence to kill the innocent irqai children and womens?


RE: Sheesh
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 12:40:45 PM , Rating: 2
MUSLIMS killed our women. The same MUSLIMS you say should be peaceful.

Also, last time I checked, hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of Iraqi's have died by MUSLIM bombers! Yes, that's right, crazy Muslims killing their own people! Why? Jihad! What a hypocrisy. Peace in a religion can not exist if it condones and encourages killing.

Oh but wait, you'll argue that Iraq was better off without us. Okay, maybe so. We probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. However, what about all the people murdered by Saddam and Ali; what about the people thrown into secret jails? What about the athletes threatened for their lives if they didn't win?

I love how you avoided my other post with a definitive quote. Care to defend that?


RE: Sheesh
By ClownPuncher on 5/20/2010 1:58:14 PM , Rating: 2
Out of 1.6 billion Muslims, less than a fraction of 1% seem to be violient jihadists. Altogether, I would have a hard time saying those are representative of their faith.


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/23/2010 2:34:54 AM , Rating: 2
I would tend to agree with you. However, the House of Wahhabi gets dough from the House of Saud, as in the royal family of Saudi Arabia. Remember the Watergate saying, "follow the money." Well Wahhabi buys a lot of influence in mosques throughout the world. I have no proof that Wahhabi is the purveyor of violence, but I am saying their influence bears further investigation, especially regarding jihad.


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/20/2010 11:45:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
For your kind information, i would request you to please read the history of Islam starts with the meaning of Islam i.e Peace, religion of Peace.

The meaning of Islam is "surrender", not "peace." Surrender as in surrender all rational thinking and believe what says in this book qithout questioning.


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/23/2010 2:38:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
"surrender", not "peace."
Or, "submission." As in 'submit, then there will peace.' Which is interesting, since it is true in any conflict, no?


RE: Sheesh
By corduroygt on 5/23/2010 6:52:36 PM , Rating: 2
So you would just surrender to the Nazis and Japanese in WW2 to end the conflict? I certainly wouldn't.

On the other hand, I wouldn't fight in a war that doesn't have just cause, such as our pointless 2nd Iraq war, while the first one was justified.


RE: Sheesh
By ekv on 5/24/2010 2:19:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So you would just surrender to the Nazis
Aren't you assuming that the Nazis were "evil"? How do you justify that assumption if everything is relative? I have a basis for making a moral judgment. I believe the Nazis were evil. Hence I would fight.

Next, I hardly think the "2nd Iraq war" was pointless. Saddam and his lizard spawn, Qusay and uday (sp?) are toast. We have a great opportunity to build the 2nd true democracy in the region. Think about it. Numerous pluses. Instead we're snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. That is what I call pointless.

Regardless of how we got there -- "just cause"? I'm not sure you've defined this term -- we are there. For better or worse. We might as well make it better rather than lose our investment. Bicker over the investment of lives, or honor them?

Lastly, I think perhaps you're misinterpreting what I said. For a muslim to claim that Islam means "peace" ... there's a grain of truth to it. Kind of like Obama marketing his Health Care boondoggle. With Islam you can market the "peace" side of things which has tremendous appeal to a certain part of the population. A gullible part, I firmly believe. That such a person would have to totally and obsequiously --as in bowing, unctuous, servile, greasy, compliant, smarmy -- ignore the sword part, the "submission" part of the Islamic equation irks me.


RE: Sheesh
By Gzus666 on 5/20/2010 11:27:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The answer to these questions are simple. Christianity is not a radical based religion. And the examples you brought up were HUMANS falsely representing the religion, perverting it, and using it toward their own goals. These are not the tenants of the religion and never were.


No True Scotsman fallacy, you don't get to decide who is and is not a true Christian just for your little argument to hold water.

Like usual, you argue like a child, which matches your persona. I have a hard time even debating with such silliness. As I said, Christians did it long ago and Islam is just now hitting the same stride. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, as we can see clearly in this case.

Also, how you say the Bible doesn't promote violence without some sort of sarcasm marker is amazing. Did we read a different bible? That book was full of hate and violence toward everyone under the sun.


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/20/2010 11:47:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Did we read a different bible? That book was full of hate and violence toward everyone under the sun.


Well now you're not even trying to be rational.


RE: Sheesh
By clovell on 5/20/2010 1:54:13 PM , Rating: 2
Puting aside all the back and forth -

If some of you want to get upset over the thousands of lives that died at the hand of Christianity centuries ago, have fun with that, but glibly hand-waving at the PRESENT-DAY indictments against the more radical forms of Islam, which are very far from uncommon, doesn't really help anybody.

For civilization to move forward, we have to be brave enough to face our own hypocrisy and overcome it. Radical Islam has a far more lethal arsenal at its disposal today than radical Christianity had centuries ago.


RE: Sheesh
By clovell on 5/20/2010 2:20:25 PM , Rating: 2
And I should, in fairness, add that there are radical Christians out there, too, who also need to be stopped. Also in fairness, there are radical everythings out there, too - who also need to be stopped.


RE: Sheesh
By Quadrillity on 5/20/2010 3:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
I think what most people are arguing here is that the Islamic Bible is purely hateful. But yes, there are radicals everywhere...


RE: Sheesh
By Reclaimer77 on 5/21/2010 2:13:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If some of you want to get upset over the thousands of lives that died at the hand of Christianity centuries ago, have fun with that, but glibly hand-waving at the PRESENT-DAY indictments against the more radical forms of Islam, which are very far from uncommon, doesn't really help anybody.


Exactly! Islamic suicide bombers are an almost daily event! Bringing up the 1500's isn't helping anyone.


RE: Sheesh
By cerx on 5/20/2010 3:36:44 PM , Rating: 2
And there's a church in Kansas that pickets the funerals of American soldiers.


RE: Sheesh
By daveinternets on 5/20/2010 10:40:37 AM , Rating: 3
I know, Christians are crazy! Have you seen Jesus Camp? Scary, scary stuff.


RE: Sheesh
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 9:54:40 AM , Rating: 5
I hope the Muslims ban the whole world. Just go ahead and ban everything. That's right. It would make life simple if they just crawl into their little hole known as the Middle East and leave us all alone.

Good riddance.

Oh, and in the spirit of Draw Mohammed Day, here's my little effort for the cause. ;)

@:)=-|-< ~~~~~ Rocket Mohammed, he can fly fastar!!111


RE: Sheesh
By MozeeToby on 5/20/2010 9:55:49 AM , Rating: 3
The irony is that the proscription against images of Mohammed was originally put into place to prevent him from becoming a religions icon or object of worship. An irony totally lost on the people that would kill otherwise innocent people over a line drawing of the man.


RE: Sheesh
By Iaiken on 5/20/2010 9:58:17 AM , Rating: 2
That stick man could be ANYONES prophet!


RE: Sheesh
By LRonaldHubbs on 5/20/2010 10:10:16 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Sheesh
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 10:16:36 AM , Rating: 5
````*
```/
```|
`@@@
@@@@@
@@@@@
(X____X) Explosive Muhammad does not approve!
``` >
¦vvvvvv¦
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
`¦¦¦¦

You see, unlike Santa Clause, he wants to take your toys!


RE: Sheesh
By Fleeb on 5/20/2010 10:31:37 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know man. I sketched Osama bin Laden and they all started yelling, "Allah hu akbar!". I am so lost and confused.


RE: Sheesh
By Murloc on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Sheesh
By Hiawa23 on 5/20/2010 2:12:55 PM , Rating: 2
It's topics like this that really make me appreciate living in America & the freedoms we have.


Legacy Religion Much
By Thelookingglass on 5/20/2010 2:20:45 PM , Rating: 4
Christians used to murder thousands of people. They used to torture and kill anyone with independent thought or anyone who was a nonbeliever. They surpressed information and surpressed women.

I see some blatent similarities.

The difference is christian societies seemed to move into the modern age. Their practices changed as well as their beliefs.

Radical Islam is far more ignorant than the west. If civilized muslims took it upon themselves to clear out radicalism, war would end, talks could be had, and progress would be made.

I hate this war. These wars. I'd rather the middle-east come into the modern world. My college is a very prestigious engineering school and thus, I frequently talk with students from the middle-east and I know there's much both groups can contribute to each other.

But if they want to stay in a desert war-zone, live in cities with low wages, poor education, and poor infrastructure, be met with constant skepticism, and support terrorism...then I'll continue to happily pay my taxes to rid the world of radical, religious fanatics.

Everything in moderation. Even religion.




RE: Legacy Religion Much
By Divide Overflow on 5/20/2010 4:01:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Everything in moderation. Even religion.

Especially religion!


Spelling Mistake!
By DocWolfe on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Spelling Mistake!
By FaceMaster on 5/20/2010 10:20:30 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
... of Mohammed, the highest profit in the religion Islam. prophet


1) Post images of Mohammed
2) get banned from Pakistan
3) ???
4) Profit!


I guess Google will be next...
By gralex on 5/20/2010 10:16:03 AM , Rating: 2
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cac...

You gotta love the Streisand effect!




RE: I guess Google will be next...
By T2k on 5/20/2010 1:23:56 PM , Rating: 1
What's scary is that I cannot send EVEN THIS GOOGLE CACHE LINK in FB as a PRIVATE message either!


RE: I guess Google will be next...
By gralex on 5/20/2010 2:20:10 PM , Rating: 2
The Pakistan Telecommunication Authority ordered operators to shut down YouTube "in view of growing sacrilegious contents on it," officials said in a statement.
-CNN

Growing sacrilegious content? How generic! What next?
Just ban the internet and get it over with.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/pa...


mohamod
By Alphafox78 on 5/20/2010 9:25:54 AM , Rating: 2
why are only images of Mohamed censored? if we are going to censor him we better censor all religious figures, otherwise it makes no sense.




RE: mohamod
By Camikazi on 5/20/2010 9:37:11 AM , Rating: 2
Other religions fanatics aren't threatening to bomb Comedy Central over images of Jesus or the rest of them only Muslims :P


Silence...
By danobrega on 5/20/2010 11:36:23 AM , Rating: 3
... I kill you!




Everybody Draw Mohammed
By DominionSeraph on 5/20/2010 10:38:07 PM , Rating: 3
:(> This is Mohammed sad at Muslims being stereotypically Muslim. (That's a beard)

-|:)> Mohammed stylin' in a tophat.

/:|> Gangsta Mohammed.

:0> Mohammed opening wide for penis.

Terroristic threats from Muslim fanatics should not cow any freedom-loving person.




reTARD...
By usju on 5/22/2010 11:03:54 AM , Rating: 1
Quoting MrBlastman and T2k

quote:
Soooo Muhammad sleeping with a 9-year old was a peaceful act?


You are so ouright retarded that you probably won't understand what i'm going to say but this is for everyone else with the same question so here goes...

I dont even need to quote any sacred texts to prove my point because its so plainly logical...
It was a TREND at that time to marry young aged girls. EVERYONE in Arabia (or you can say the whole world) did it. Man, check your favourite source Wikipedia or something. Child marriage existed in the 18th century in Europe and it was considered NORMAL then. And here we are talking about WAY back ~1500 years ago. Everything they do will seem illogical to a fucktard.

The tribes of Makkah rained unimaginable physical and mental torment upon Muhammad when he started preaching Islam. Before he had been known as one of the noblest peoples of Makkah but after he started preaching they criticized him in EVERY aspect they could. They called him a magician and a liar and what not. But they NEVER brought up his marriage with a 9 year old girl. Who are you to?

WAS it LUST? If my beloved Prophet was lusty he wouldnt have married a 40 year old woman when he was in his twenties. And he DIDNT remarry till her death.

Thinking of it, marrying a school-aged girl seems to actually make sense for Muhammad because at such a young age a person has the sharpest memory. And we already know that MAJORITY of the Prophet's sayings were propagated through this wife, throughout her lifetime.

Maybe it was all part of God's master plan? He wished for her to learn they Islamic way of life over the course of many years and narrate it to others. And we Muslims follow her sayings to this day.

But all this is probably way over the head of a douchebag who doesnt believe in God in the first place.




RE: reTARD...
By corduroygt on 5/23/2010 6:42:21 PM , Rating: 2
You have some valid points, such as whenever Muhammad was to do something that was frowned upon in society back then, a verse would magically make it OK in the eyes of god, and there were no verses about marrying a child, so it's very likely that it was a common practice back then.

What's baffling is that you admit things weren't so advanced 1500 years ago, yet still believe in a book written back then. If it said it's ok to marry a 9 year old, would you try that today? How about punishing thieves by cutting out their arms and hands, is that a good punishment to apply these days?

That makes no sense, but sense is too much to ask for people who've been brainwashed and indoctrinated with religious dogma ever since they were a child.

Also calling people who don't believe in God douchebags shows the true nature of you guys, you want everyone to follow your religion, by force if necessary. Thankfully, that's not going to happen.


Welcome to the big leagues!!
By Iaiken on 5/20/2010 9:56:49 AM , Rating: 2
You're just small time until you've been banned by either Pakistan or China. Now I know some are going to mention Iran, but that's just too easy... Heck, I'M banned from Iran. :D

As for fundamentalist governments, all I have to say to them is: "Thanks for being a star-lit example as to why separation of church and state are required for any modern government".




is that...mohamamahad?
By vapore0n on 5/20/2010 10:08:38 AM , Rating: 2
Someone in DT is going to get a visit from the tooth fairy




By Chernobyl68 on 5/20/2010 11:49:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The incident reckons back to the recent South Park scuffle in which the censored depiction of the Mohammed dressed in a bear costume, still offended radical Muslims so much that the site RevolutionMuslim.com issued a death threat against the show's creators Matt Stone and Trey Partner . The site wrote, "We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them."


Trey PARKER you fool.




Wow
By marqcon on 5/20/2010 12:56:36 PM , Rating: 2
I think it's hilarious that they go off about crap like that... because "OMG IT'S AGAINST OUR RELIGION TO SHOW PICTURES OF MUHAMMED", well guess what, I'm not part of your religion and if I want to draw a picture of the guy then it's my right as a human being. Furthermore, it's against my religion to kill people, so you shouldn't do it either because my religion says it's bad. If everyone followed what every other religion says is right, we'd all be sitting at home doing absolutely nothing because to somebody somewhere, EVERYTHING is bad!




The beginning
By Ammohunt on 5/20/2010 3:04:37 PM , Rating: 2
Not sure why we(The West) need to be the tolerant ones people that come to western nations need to assimilate or go back to where they came from. Besides this is not an issue with the islamic religion as much as it is with the Culture that surrounds it which is completely incompatible with modern world western culture. This type of thing needs to be put down fast and hard otherwise western culture will be swallowed up by the primitive islamic culture just like meso-america was consumed by Spanish cluture and religion.




build it
By p05esto on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: build it
By LRonaldHubbs on 5/20/2010 10:03:06 PM , Rating: 2
Congratulations on proving that you know absolutely nothing about any of the opinions or theories contrary to your own.


RE:
By snakeeater330 on 5/21/2010 1:19:53 AM , Rating: 2
First of all Islam is not full of terrorist. Terrorist are a result of the many tragedies, that occur during several wars. Terrorist radical groups just try to take advantage of whatever and by using any excuse (not only religion but by blackmailing, kidnapping children to do their dirty work for them) they need to fuel their radicalism. As for pictures depicting Muhammad, the aim was to show that they do not fear the terrorist, their intentions were commendable but their effort was rather pathetic.. they could have done much better... Also if you make diagrams of Muhammad on face-book, you are showing that to entire world... you must know that by showing that you are not be feared. Its intentions were towards the terrorist only, but they maker of the group must realize that Islam and terrorism are not related. One was created 1400 years ago the other was created 9 years ago, one follows traditions one radicalizes tradition for profiteering. By sending a message of good intent, while insulting several millions their traditions as it was the group opened up on face-book, where millions of people are observing...




Spelling?
By PrinceGaz on 5/20/2010 9:56:15 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The group encouraged a "contest" of drawing caricatures of Mohammed, the highest profit in the religion Islam.


Methinks someone used speech recognition...




this just makes me laugh
By smackababy on 5/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: this just makes me laugh
By gralex on 5/20/2010 2:52:52 PM , Rating: 2
Dude! Chill.
Facebook was was just an excuse. They took down YouTube!
Shock doctrine... islamic style:D


RE: this just makes me laugh
By gralex on 5/21/2010 6:15:16 AM , Rating: 2
Well whadaya know! First Facebook , then YouTube and now:

"Some Wikipedia pages are also now being restricted, latest reports say."
-BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/101301...


RE: this just makes me laugh
By clovell on 5/21/2010 1:56:09 PM , Rating: 3
No. Radical Islam brought this on themselves by killing cartonists and making threats - a far more grave disrespect than anything done on Facebook - which has inspired protest.

That someone else takes offense - to me exercising my rights - the rights which they would rather kill me to take away - doesn't really register on my radar. We don't outlaw abortion here just because it radicalizes Christians who go and blow up clinics.

I'm gonna get rated to -1 for this, but if these pr!cks want to hate me and kill me for my freedoms, I'd much rather oblige them and die free than live under their theocracy.


Don't argue with them
By FaceMaster on 5/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Don't argue with them
By MozeeToby on 5/20/2010 10:39:29 AM , Rating: 4
If someone living in another country gets to control what I can and can't label my stick figure, I've already lost. If I travel to an Islamic nation and do something illegal fine, but their religious rules cannot apply to every single person in the world if you want any measure of freedom.

If you allow it once, it's only a matter of time until some religion crops up with a list of 100,000 abominations unto Nuggen that they want the rest of the world to adhere to. If it's the American way to start a fight to preserve our personal rights and freedoms I wish to high hell that more people followed the American way.


RE: Don't argue with them
By StraightCashHomey on 5/20/2010 11:07:39 AM , Rating: 2
Nobody is stopping you from drawing any religious figure. You can draw whatever you want. Pakistan just doesn't want to see it. They aren't taking any of your American freedoms away.


RE: Don't argue with them
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 11:09:39 AM , Rating: 2
They aren't, but their nutcases that have bombs strapped to them sure are trying their darndest to.


RE: Don't argue with them
By passionateleo on 5/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Don't argue with them
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 11:52:18 AM , Rating: 5
You see, that is just it,

quote:
have not respect of your own religion


We don't have a "religion" for our Country! Our country was founded on the principle of Freedom of Religion, in other words, our Citizens can practice whatever religion they want to!

They can be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Athiest... whatever they want to be! Our nation is governed by the rule of law as well, not religion. Of course, freedoms such as these come with a price and that is the price of choice.

Yes, choice--our people can choose their own path in life. They are free to make their own mistakes or their own triumphs. It is up for them to decide. That is what makes America so great, that is why we have so much... opportunity here.

I assume you are from the Middle East. Next time you have a chance, look out your window (if you live there now) and witness all the poverty and jealousy in your people's eyes. The reason you might be witnessing that is due to your lack of opportunity. You can only have what your religious government says you can have. It seriously limits your nations potential.

Remember when the Catholic Church ruled over the courts and lands of Europe? That was when the Kings and Lords ruled over the Serfs and lower class, the people had to do as they were told and could do no other. It was a dark time with many atrocities occuring, simply because the Church was allowed to rule over nations governments. This is the problem.

Religions need to be in their own place and not running nations. Hence, separation of Church from State. This is something the Middle East lacks and until they remedy it, they will be doomed to mediocrity. Religion and Government can co-exist, just not as one and they can get along peacefully.

The Muslims need to learn this concept. They also need to learn that people need to think for themselves and not be spoon fed. Yes, there will be those in society that degenerate--that is their choice, and ultimately, their own life. You can try and help them to find a better path but can never truly "force" someone to do so.


RE: Don't argue with them
By banthracis on 5/20/2010 10:41:56 AM , Rating: 2
So if someone has a religion the has human sacrifice, slavery or legalizes marriage between young children and adults we should just turn a blind eye and allow them to proceed?

Religious beliefs should be tolerated as long as they do not cause harm to other human beings. Once that line is crossed then those beliefs are no more than an pathetic excuse to commit crimes.

Muslim nations are the most guilty of harming other humans under the guise of religion, though other religions are far from immune.


RE: Don't argue with them
By bighairycamel on 5/20/2010 10:48:23 AM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure his post was being satirical.


RE: Don't argue with them
By FaceMaster on 5/20/2010 4:22:29 PM , Rating: 2
No, I'm totally serious. There were these people who cornered me in an alley way today. They pulled a knife to me and ordered me to give them my money. If I hadn't, I'd be killed. THE SAME COULD HAPPEN TO AMERICA IF THEY DON'T GIVE IN TO THE TERRORIST'S DEMANDS!

Not all of us are Jack Bauer.


RE: Don't argue with them
By clovell on 5/21/2010 2:09:00 PM , Rating: 2
> Not all of us are Jack Bauer.

Yes, but Jack Bauer is American.


RE: Don't argue with them
By FaceMaster on 5/22/2010 4:25:01 PM , Rating: 2
Jack Bauer is also a fictional character, who MIGHT DIE in Monday's episode!


RE: Don't argue with them
By MrBlastman on 5/20/2010 11:03:27 AM , Rating: 2
They should respect a foot up their *ss from us. If they don't like freedom of speech, they can try freedom of expression on for size... a size 10 1/2 to be exact. :)


RE: Don't argue with them
By Chernobyl68 on 5/20/2010 11:44:18 AM , Rating: 2
to be fair, facebook did not insult pakistan or the Muslim faith. Whatever user created the draw the prophet page, and the 40,000 fans it logged are the ones who have insulted them, in my view.


RE: Don't argue with them
By LRonaldHubbs on 5/20/2010 9:51:51 PM , Rating: 2
First of all Facebook did not insult anyone's religion. Users posted images which a bunch of childish whiners chose to be offended by. Don't want to see drawings of Muhammad? That's cool, you're free to not go into the "Everyone draw Muhammad" group. It's called looking the other way and it's something that's taught in kindergarten. They should give it a try some time.

Secondly, your opinion is one that nobody should be taking. Yes it takes two to fight, but the group making the threats is the aggressor. If we cave in to their threats, then they know they can just do the same next time they aren't getting their way. This is not acceptable. Pacifism is less moral than confrontation because it allows the problem to continue. Grow some balls.

Lastly, no person, thing, or belief ever deserves respect. Respect is always earned , and any group which cannot tolerate criticism has not earned it.


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