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Internet service providers receive their biggest supporter yet

This week, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) indicated that federal regulators and policy makers should proceed with caution when dealing with net neutrality. The idea that Internet access should be regulated to avoid providers charging too much is not as big of a concern as many think, FTC chairwoman Deborah Platt Majoras said. Majoras indicated net neutrality is a non-issue at this time in a statement given to lawyers.

Content providers such as Google have been pro net neutrality since the debate started. According to a bill by Dem. Edward Markey which was previously rejected, net neutrality maintains that service providers must provide equal service to all types of content and content providers. One example of this may be that an ISP cannot charge more for transmitting video content than say audio content, even though the two data types travel through the same network.

Tiered networking is a big topic in net neutrality as well. Content providers are concerned that prices will be heavily affected if an ISP is allowed to separate network performance depending on who paid what and when. One example of this could be a company paying a network provider higher rates so that their website would load faster on the customer end than that of another company. Companies like Yahoo!, Microsoft and Google fear that broadband prices will rise as a result and get out of hand.

For the last several years however, the industry has witnessed greater acceptance of broadband access, more of it available and a decline in access subscription prices. In the U.K., where broadband access is traditionally more costly than in the U.S., prices have gradually declined according to research by the U.K. Office of Communications. New technology rolling out such as Verizon's FiOS give DSL and cable providers even more incentives to be competitive.

Verizon, AT&T and the majority of other network providers agree the U.S. government is wasting its time. Verizon conducted its own survey on net neutrality and found the majority of consumers that took the survey were more concerned about the future of high-definition broadcasting than net neutrality. In fact, many indicated they did not know what net neutrality was or indicated that they did not even care. Hardware makers such as Cisco continue to side with the service providers.

The FTC has looked over net neutrality very carefully and at this time feels that any concerns over price hiking and anti competitive business practices will be addressed by antitrust laws, Majoras said. Search giant Google previously stated it would file antitrust complaints against any telcos if they abused network control -- a statement indicating the industry would still remain healthy and under control even without net neutrality laws.

Internet service providers have repeatedly stated that Congress should focus its attention on other areas and not on net neutrality.


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Bad science
By Proteusza on 6/29/2007 4:38:05 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
the majority of consumers that took the survey were more concerned about the future of high-definition broadcasting than net neutrality. In fact, many indicated they did not know what net neutrality was or indicated that they did not even care.


The second sentence of this quote makes the conclusion obtained from the study irrelevant.

I could do a survey asking people whether we should ban all active internet content, and because people are unaware what it is, they probably have the dont know dont care attitude.

So my study could show that people dont care about active internet content, and it should be banned. However, if people actually knew what they were being asked, they would opt to not ban it.

The researchers in that study seem to have taken ignorance as siding with one part of the debate, when it should really mean they dont have an opinion.

Net neutrality needs to happen, and I hope that google can spend enough to make it so, because given how money dictates American politics, they are the only ones with the power - the consumer is now powerless.




RE: Bad science
By arazok on 6/29/2007 6:47:37 AM , Rating: 3
I was about to post the same quote for the same argument.

Finding a group of retards to back up your claims dosen't make a strong argument.


RE: Bad science
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 9:48:57 AM , Rating: 3
If you word the question the right way, I'm sure you can get 50% of people to agree that there should be a genocide against some group they belong to.


RE: Bad science
By Proteusza on 6/29/2007 10:17:30 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly!

What if the question was, "Do you want superfast tiered internet, or do you want the government to enforce net neutrality to slow down the internet?"


RE: Bad science
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 10:54:47 AM , Rating: 5
> "Do you want superfast tiered internet, or do you want the government to enforce net neutrality to slow down the internet?"

Not a bad way to phrase it actually. It's probably more accurate than the way most of these surveys are worded.


RE: Bad science
By BMFPitt on 6/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: Bad science
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 11:34:14 AM , Rating: 3
I'm sorry, but your fears are supported neither by reality nor by historical precedent. Companies will pay for greater access for themselves, not less access for their competitors. A telecomm company doesn't make money by shafting its customers and, even if they did, there are plenty of other providers willing to take their business.

What's a better business model? Pay "X" to push you into the top tier, or 10,000X to bribe not only your own provider, but every other provider on the planet to downgrade service for each and every competitor you have? Its utter silliness. And, even if you think otherwise, telcos would happily accept any legislation which illegalized such behavior...it already is, in fact, in many such forms. Net Neutrality isn't about this at all, and even its most ardent supporters admit it.

Net Neutrality is about preventing telcos from the first choice-- providing some form of greater access for those willing to pay for it. New, enhanced QOS features such as minimum-latency pipes, guaranteed-packet delivery, etc. Everyone who doesn't pay is still going to get the same quality of service they already do (in fact, they'll get it slightly cheaper as many costs will be amortized against the higher tiers). But people who can pay more, will get more. The free market in action.


RE: Bad science
By Oregonian2 on 6/29/2007 3:44:34 PM , Rating: 1
Except that when you give somebody a higher QoS setting, it degrades all that with lower settings. This is essentially what the other fellow said. You at least indirectly pay to have your competitor access degraded (unless you assume the bandwidth available exceeds the total demand).


RE: Bad science
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 5:55:44 PM , Rating: 3
> "This is essentially what the other fellow said"

Not even close. He said Company A might pay to have a competitors's service specifically degraded. Not pay to have their own service upgraded and, as a side effect, have a microscropic effect on every other client of that ISP, whether or not they're a competitor.

You're essentially claiming that, because you bought more bandwidth from your cable company, you were "paying" to disrupt the service of your neighbors.

In any case, a huge number of the prospective new services do NOT affect existing traffic in any way. Some do, but their impact is extremely minor, and that's assuming new bandwidth isn't added to compensate.


RE: Bad science
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 8:51:26 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
In any case, a huge number of the prospective new services do NOT affect existing traffic in any way. Some do, but their impact is extremely minor, and that's assuming new bandwidth isn't added to compensate.
Then lobby for a law that is written to allow non-disruptive functions, but not disruptive ones. Difficulty: You can't just say nothing will ever be disruptive.


RE: Bad science
By tehliberal on 6/29/2007 1:25:06 PM , Rating: 1
This coming from someone whose priorities are well-known and extremely anti-consumer.

You're basically saying that the ISPs should be allowed to become the new mafia. Pay them protection money or people using their service won't be able to access your site as fast.

Allowing ISPs to do this is the same as allowing the mob to post guards outside of businesses that don't pay to keep customers out.

That's the "more accurate" way of describing what the ISPs are attempting to do.


RE: Bad science
By geddarkstorm on 6/29/2007 2:40:39 PM , Rating: 1
So true!

No matter which way you come at it (pay to have customers access you faster, or pay to have customers access your competitors slower) the end result is exactly the same, and just how you put it. Think how horrific it would be to be a internet start up company in such a tiered net. There's no way you could pay to have faster access to you by customers from many different ISPs, so you'd have to throw active content, video, flash, all that right out the window. Then who'll be attracted to you if your site isn't as flashy as big company sites and slower to boot, even if your products are priced better? It really would turn the internet into a mafia world.

And people who say there's no historical precedence for this have completely ignored the Mob era, which lasted decades. In fact, there are still mods out there.

Is it good for business to have people have greater access to your stuff? Yes. But it's even better business if they have no alternatives OTHER THAN your stuff, no matter how slow your site is! The internet would become a very unfriendly, underhanded place very fast if net neutrality wasn't upheld. ALL of history and current events prove that, not otherwise (just watch the legal battles between companies even right now and anyone would get the picture).


RE: Bad science
By geddarkstorm on 6/29/2007 2:56:34 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I didn't mean to say "net neutrality" in the sense of the mandates they are talking about here. I'm not sure what the actual "net neutrality" bills would do. But when I think of no neutrality, I mean total unrestricted access for businesses to do whatever they want in the areas they own.

The issue isn't so simple on either side, and I am generally against government regulations--but there must be guidelines or rules, as if people can do it, they generally will if it means a profit. That said, the FCC is most likely right.


RE: Bad science
By arazok on 6/29/2007 2:41:44 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
This coming from someone whose priorities are well-known and extremely anti-consumer.


Actually, everything I have seen from Masher is pro-consumer. It just looks anti-consumer to people who don't grasp the realities of economics, or the way the world works.


RE: Bad science
By tehliberal on 6/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: Bad science
By arazok on 6/29/2007 5:07:52 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Ah yes, when you can't prove me wrong, insult my intelligence.


At no point did I insult your intelligence. I just said you have a poor grasp on how the world/economics works.

quote:
Too bad one of us has several college degrees and has been tested to have an IQ over three standard deviations from the mean, and it's not you.


Yeah, well my Dad can beat up your Dad! Seriously, using your degrees and IQ score to attack my comment makes you look silly. Some of the dumbest people I know are Chemists and Engineers.

quote>Requiring companies to pay for their site to load quickly over an ISP's network only serves to raise prices and lower quality of goods and services purchased over the internet.

You're assuming that people who don't pay a premium will get slow delivery. It wont. They will almost certainly get the same service they do now. Most proponents are talking about "guaranteed packet delivery", and faster pipes. Not "Pay or I'm going to trash your packets and route you to a dial up connection".

These services are not needed currently, but if you want to see things like IPTV that you can rely on, (without any risk of lag or lost connections), you can't have neutrality. Every spike on the network has the potential to degrade service. Without prioritizing service, you can't deliver the next generation of internet services that require absolute trust in fast delivery.

quote:
anti-consumer views


Just because somebody believes in the theory of supply and demand economics, doesn't make them anti-consumer. We are all consumers in the end, and everybody is looking to shape a world where the consumer gets the biggest share of the pie as possible. The differences are in how to achieve that goal:

-There's the simplistic view, where things are cut and dry - Allowing corporations to tier access can only lead to higher prices.

-There's the less obvious view - Allowing tiered access will allow the people who need faster service to obtain it at a premium, while those who do not will obtain only what they need at a lower rate.

It's a choice between allowing for superior service at a price, or mediocre service for everyone. That people just don't get this baffles me. Every time the government regulates and restricts companies from delivering services as they see fit, typically in the name of the consumer, the result is always mediocre service. The CRTC here in Canada is a prime example. The government regulates local phone prices to prevent price gouging by Telco's. It costs about $45.00 for phone service here, and they aren't allowed to charge more. Sounds rosy right? Well, now that Vonnage and other startups are offering phone service for $25 a month, guess what?! The Telco's are prevented from lowering prices to compete by the very regulations designed to protect us.

Supply and demand rules. Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it. The rest works itself out if you just leave it alone.


RE: Bad science
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 8:53:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
These services are not needed currently, but if you want to see things like IPTV that you can rely on, (without any risk of lag or lost connections), you can't have neutrality.
You can't have it as written now. You could easily have it if written better, so that IPTV or other lag-intolerant things can be prioritized, but only on the merits of what they are, not where they're coming form (i.e. a normal web server can never pay to be on that level.)
quote:
Supply and demand rules. Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it. The rest works itself out if you just leave it alone.
Completely true when there is no barrier to entry. Completely untrue when it costs billions just to get into the market. Ever heard of Standard Oil?

Government regulation should be kept to an absolute minimum, but protecting the integrity of the world's most powerful communication tool is a minimum requirement. If you are a company that deals with essential infrastructure, you need to be regulated.


RE: Bad science
By TomZ on 6/29/2007 7:26:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Too bad one of us has several college degrees and has been tested to have an IQ over three standard deviations from the mean, and it's not you.

Making a statement like that in the middle of a debate is not, well, very intelligent.

Three standard deviations, well that would be about 140-145, right? Interesting... I'm sure with some work, you could get that number up a bit. After all, I've heard rumors that GW has an IQ in that range, and he doesn't seem too smart to me.

Just kidding!


RE: Bad science
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 9:41:01 PM , Rating: 2
> "Requiring companies to pay for their site to load quickly over an ISP's network only serves to raise prices "

Companies already have to pay for their site to load quickly. Its called buying bandwidth. That doesn't change with or without Net Neutrality. Without it, though, companies have another choice. They can buy additional services which are *not* available today-- at a higher price, of course. Things like guaranteed-packet delivery or minimum-assured delivery times...things necessary for HD videoconfering, for instance, or advanced active content.

The money those early adopters pay then goes to drive down the price, and make those "advanced" services cheaper...until they're part of the base package for everyone. Then new services stack on top, and the cycle repeats.

I'm pro-consumer. I want these services available to everyone, as fast and cheaply as possible. And regulation doesn't do that. It never has, and never will. The free market does it. If you think otherwise, I suggest you examine the booming economies of Cuba, North Korea, or any of the former Soviet Republics.


RE: Bad science
By Scrogneugneu on 6/29/2007 11:25:13 PM , Rating: 2
Say, I'm throwing this out of my head as it comes, but...

If I'm a huge HD video site (say YooTewb), and I buy that packet-delivery stuff and everything from an ISP so it can be great and all... does that mean that to actually use the benefits, the users HAVE to connect to the website through that particular ISP? What if they're not with that ISP? Can't get it?

This would require one of 2 thing to work out : either I gotta buy the super-service from every ISP (which is both costly and stupid), or over time the ISP converge into pretty much one or two big choices that fight over the big websites. That situation looks a lot like what's happening in the phone industry, and from what I hear, it's not very good. Prices vary greatly from region to region, service varies, and competition is, well, not very existing, since they decided to keep their territory each.

Why would you want to recreate that situation?


RE: Bad science
By BMFPitt on 6/30/2007 10:27:54 AM , Rating: 2
This pretty much all happens above the ISP level, with the backbone companies. They're like the ISPs of ISPs.


RE: Bad science
By porkpie on 6/29/2007 12:01:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Finding a group of retards to back up your claims dosen't make a strong argument.
The only person who would vote for Net Neutrality is a 'retard' or a socialist. It shouldnt even be a topic for informed, educated people.


RE: Bad science
By tehliberal on 6/29/2007 1:37:41 PM , Rating: 1
For this comment, I think we all need to consider the source.

This is a topic for informed, educated people, thus, it's not a topic for you.


RE: Bad science
By geddarkstorm on 6/29/2007 2:46:09 PM , Rating: 2
Obviously you love to have yourself be controlled and at the mercy of companies who would then, if there was no net neutrality, have the ability to tell you what access you get and deny you anything they want. I suppose, if you don't care about freedom and love to be screwed over, this would be ok : D.

Unrestricted capitalism is just as bad as communism and socialism. That's why there are Anti-Trust laws in the first place. Or do you need to take some history lessons from the late 1800's to 1930's? Remember the Boss era? I suppose you'd love to live during then making pennies working 12 hour days in mills!


RE: Bad science
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 10:26:03 PM , Rating: 2
> "That's why there are Anti-Trust laws...I suppose you'd love to live during then making pennies working 12 hour days in mills!..."

First of all, you've clearly confused antitrust legislation with labor and working condition laws. Secondly, antitrust actions have a long history of doing more harm than good, starting all the way back with the grandaddy of them all, Standard Oil. The breakup of the oil monopoly pleased an indignant public. But it wound up raising prices for oil...a price that stayed high for over a decade aferwards.

Thirdly, would I have loved to work 12 hour days in the mill? If my only option was to work 16 hour days back on the farm, in the blazing sun or the pouring rain, for even less money-- then yes, I would have loved to work in those mills. Thats why people left their farms and moved to the cities by the millions. Because those jobs were, by the standard of the time, excellent. Fantastic, in fact. Only 60 hours a week, and all of spent inside? Amazing! A guaranteed check each week? Unbelievable. That beat farm work of the era hands down.


RE: Bad science
By FITCamaro on 6/29/2007 9:07:42 AM , Rating: 3
Exactly. People don't care because the vast majority of them see the Internet as this magical portal into the world. They don't understand the workings of the internet and how that streaming video from YouTube is supplied to them. They only care that they can watch it.

I don't want a multitiered internet because then the prices of other things are going to go up. Companies may not be able to afford then the bandwidth for services they currently offer. Internet providers just need to get off their ass and upgrade their systems to provide more bandwidth. Sure it costs money but progress always does. They make a fortune anyway.


RE: Bad science
RE: Bad science
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 10:11:27 AM , Rating: 3
> "The second sentence of this quote makes the conclusion obtained from the study irrelevant."

You've confused the Verizon survey (from which that quote derived) with the FCC study, which did no such survey and certainly didn't base its conclusion upon it.

Yes, the public's opinion does not bear much weight upon the issue of Net Neutrality. It's a bad idea for many other reasons.


RE: Bad science
By dever on 6/29/2007 1:04:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
given how money dictates American politics, they are the only ones with the power - the consumer is now powerless
quote:
Net neutrality needs to happen
So, let's get this straight. You're complaining that the government has too much power, so you suggest giving them more power to regulate the internet and taking away consumer choice? Think it through.


RE: Bad science
By Proteusza on 6/29/2007 1:17:41 PM , Rating: 2
No, that wasnt what I said.

Lets take a look at it again.

quote:
and I hope that google can spend enough to make it so, because given how money dictates American politics, they are the only ones with the power - the consumer is now powerless.


Here I say that Google is the only one that can help, given they are an example of a corporation opposed to the idea of no net neutrality. Notice that I say money dictates politics - in this case, what I mean is that through lobbying, corporations can control law to such an extent that the voter has little or no say in laws anymore.

Where do I complain that the government has too much power? All I said is that money buys politics and we need net neutrality. If you put those two together, it means someone needs to spend large amounts of money to make it happen, and a good example of someone who is capable of spending such large amounts of money is Google.

Where does that say the government has too much power?


By spluurfg on 6/29/2007 3:51:17 AM , Rating: 2
True enough, but I don't think anybody wants the 6 lane freeway with absolutely no enforcement whatsoever. There is a place for government oversight, so long as it is a balanced one.


By Proteusza on 6/29/2007 6:02:31 AM , Rating: 3
how about an 8 lane highway?

oh wait but you can only use 1 lane unless you pay us more money than your monthly car repayments.


By Proteusza on 6/29/2007 7:52:46 AM , Rating: 3
FCC says net neutrality not a big issue.

FCC also says thanks very much to AT&T for your donation, keep it coming.


By Daigain on 6/29/2007 9:53:55 AM , Rating: 2
It is not as simple as you try to make it. In Sweden we have about 25% of the population connected via these kinds of "Net Neutrality Nets" and in the end it’s proven that three things can happen. One the net is so crappy that they get no customers and cancel the whole deal. Two the government, municipally(in most cases) tries to offer their own Internet uplink and charges other ISPs who want in more and offers bad deals, i.e. expensive and 5GB limit and similar things. Three the government does not offer their own Internet uplink and all ISPs get to offer the kind of services the net can handle, meaning extremely cheap and fast internet connection for everyone.

Of course with three the ISP you choose might still not offer net neutrality in the Internet uplink but, then you can simply switch ISP. I think the basis of the internet should be based on Net Neutrality and then if any one really wants to buy services from an ISP that does not allow net neutrality then good for them.

In the end you get the best speeds, uptime, response time, connectivity, and support from this kind of government “sponsored” nets all at a much cheaper price then even Verizon FiOS. And not because its government "sponsored" with cash but because it simply offers a competitive market for all ISPs where the rules are the same for all of them.


By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 10:25:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
In Sweden we have about 25% of the population connected via these kinds of "Net Neutrality Nets" and in the end it’s proven that three things can happen. One the net is so crappy that they get no customers and cancel the whole deal. Two the government...charges other ISPs who want in more and offers bad deals, i.e. expensive and 5GB limit and similar things. Three the government does not offer their own Internet uplink and all ISPs get to offer the kind of services the net can handle, meaning extremely cheap and fast internet connection...
Yes, its always illuminating to look at the results of other failed government interventions. But unfortunately, people rarely learn from history, especially when it comes to attempting to use the government to get something for nothing. They keep thinking that THIS time it'll finally work.

Net Neutrality is thinly veiled Socialism masquerading as a free speech issue. There are many new and exciting technologies waiting to be implement for the Net. Companies are salivating over the opportunity to provide them-- and charge more for them of course. The early adopters of those new services will wind up funding their implementation and, fairly quickly, bring down the price enough so that they're eventually so cheap as to be part of everyone's "base" package. That's the free-market model, and its proven it works fastest and best countless times over.

On the other side, is the "free lunch" crowd, who thinks simply by signing a law, they can force those companies to skip that middle step, and provide all those services to everyone, at the same base price point. That just doesn't work. Either those services will simply be provided to no one at all, until passing decades have finally made them so cheap their cost is minimal. Or they'll be provided via government funding in a poor, inefficient slipshod manner, and (if you count the hidden costs to your wallet in tax dollars) at a cost shocking enough to make a strong man gasp.


By blaster5k on 6/29/2007 11:00:07 AM , Rating: 2
Right on. I think a good chunk of the mess with telecoms that we have right now is the result of regulation. Legislation creates coercive monopolies -- they don't exist naturally.


By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 11:43:35 AM , Rating: 2
And I know that you are well aware, MAsher, that whatever is going on in Sweeden is in no way analogous to Net Neutrality.

I'd rather aim for something such as "Content Neutrality" where certain types of data (i.e. VOIP phones) can be given a higher priority, but that there can be no discrimination based on the source of the data (this completely removes your already-shaky claim to "new products and services" by the way.)

But I'm pretty sure you're totally in favor of making it legal for Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble to pay off Verizon or whoever to cripple each other's sites. Your next reaction will be either to say that this would be a great thing for the free market and all that, or that this would never happen. If you're going with the latter, I'll save time and ask you now: Why wouldn't this happen?


By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 11:58:18 AM , Rating: 2
> "...making it legal for Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble to pay off Verizon or whoever to cripple each other's sites...I'll save time and ask you now: Why wouldn't this happen? "

Easy answer. Because its already legal to do so (Net Neutrality hasn't passed, remember?) and yet it's not being done.

It just doesn't make sense economically. So Amazon pays off Verizon? B&N moves to a different provider. Amazon pays off that one. Verizon moves again. There isn't enough money in the world to pay off everyone, and even if there were, it would cost a million times more than any possible gain. There's only so much profit in any market, even if you do manage to drive out every other competitor.

In fact, Net Neutrality makes these sorts of shenanigens even more likely. Without it, a company can spend money and gain greater access (not less for its competitors). With it, though, they can't buy more. Their ONLY option is to try to buy their competitors less. They won't be able to pay a telco to do so...but at some point, someone will probably try bribing an employee of that telco to do it surreptitiously.

And in any case, you're missing the entire point. Net Neutrality isn't about forbidding access crippling. It forbids telcos from offering greater service at a greater price. And THAT, my friend, is the whole problem.


By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 12:46:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Easy answer. Because its already legal to do so (Net Neutrality hasn't passed, remember?) and yet it's not being done.
Net Neutrality was law from decades, and it expired. It would be a bad idea to abuse the power now while there's still a debate about whether to re enact it.
quote:
And in any case, you're missing the entire point. Net Neutrality isn't about forbidding access crippling. It forbids telcos from offering greater service at a greater price. And THAT, my friend, is the whole problem.
It lets them offer any greater service they want, as long as they treat packets the same.


By TP715 on 6/29/2007 2:05:55 PM , Rating: 2
I'm so confused. I thought I understood net neutrality, but many posts here seem to imply something completely different. They seem to imply it would force ISPs to give everyone the same bandwidth into their home. I thought ISPs are of course allowed to charge me extra for a higher bandwidth connection. I thought net neutrality meant that my ISP is not allowed to charge content providers extra for using that bandwidth to reach me with the data I requested.

In other words, Amazon should not be allowed to pay my ISP to slow down Barnes and Nobles web access to my computer, thereby forcing me to buy books only from Amazon. I paid for bandwidth into my computer, Barnes and Noble paid for bandwidth out of their servers, why should either I or Barnes and Noble pay again to allow that data to make it to my machine uninhibited? (Using the example given above.)

Do I have something wrong?


By tehliberal on 6/29/2007 2:42:25 PM , Rating: 2
The ISPs and other parties interested in allowing this egregious theft try to confuse the issue and its ramifications in order to get people to agree that net neutrality is bad.

The truth is that Net Neutrality would make it illegal for ISP corporations to take money from companies to make their site load faster over said ISP's network.

Without it, extortion akin to the mafia taking protection money to leave your business alone would be legal.

Some people will try to confuse you by saying that your ISP would be able to enhance services with the money, but the truth is, you're already paying them to do that. They make a profit off of selling internet service and the investment of that capital is how the networks here today have been built. Investment of capital, not extortion, is, and should be, the basis of capitalism.


By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 3:04:49 PM , Rating: 2
It's not about the bandwidth itself, it's about how the traffic is handled. With Net Neutrality, all packets must be treated the same as they travel through the series of tubes. Without it, backbone providers and ISPs can create tiers where the "premium" connections get handled first as the "cheap" connections wait in line. Think of it as an 2 lane highway where only one lane has only yield signs and the other has all stop signs.

There is also nothing to prevent big players from buying exclusivity, sort of like game consoles do but in reverse. Best Buy wants to be the only big box retailer in the fast lane? Why not?


By TP715 on 6/29/2007 4:05:23 PM , Rating: 2
So, without net neutrality, if I've paid my ISP for 6Mbps I'm not really entitled to 6Mbps, or any Mbps? If I connect to some server that has paid the extortion fee, then I get 6Mbps. If I connect to one who hasn't, then I get whatever. And whatever depends on the backbone and my ISP capacity. So my ISP will arbitrarily reduce it's capacity so that degradation occurs more often, causing Amazon, Google, etc. to cough up more more money to overcome the "limitations" and get preferential treatment.

I see how this can generate much higher profits for ISPs and backbone providers; it doesn't seem to do me any good however.


By tehliberal on 6/29/2007 4:14:08 PM , Rating: 2
You've pretty much grasped the concept here.
You pay your ISP for a certain amount of speed to/from servers on the internet, and then your ISP charges those servers to allow you to get the speed you already paid for to their sites. Pay up or get slowed down.
We don't let the mob do it, so why do we want to let our ISPs do it?


By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 9:12:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And whatever depends on the backbone and my ISP capacity. So my ISP will arbitrarily reduce it's capacity so that degradation occurs more often, causing Amazon, Google, etc. to cough up more more money to overcome the "limitations" and get preferential treatment.
It's more about latency than bandwidth, though the two are related. It's like a car that does round trips picking up pizzas. The car and the road don't change, but one driver has all the lights go green, and the other has to wait.

Also, nothing is preventing the "top tier" delivery guy from paying to have the light stay red longer for the competitor.


By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 10:34:04 PM , Rating: 2
> "So, without net neutrality, if I've paid my ISP for 6Mbps I'm not really entitled to 6Mbps, or any Mbps?"

No, Net Neutrality has nothing to do with bandwidth. You can still buy as little or as much as you need. It has to deal with how a telco is allowed to handle packets. Without Net Neutrality, they're allowed to treat different packets differently. Route them ahead, or faster, or with guaranteed delivery or latency. Quality of Service. And, of course, they're allowed to charge for that service.

With Net Neutrality, they're forced to treat each packet equally. Which sounds good in principle...until you realize it forbids most QoS features, prevents the early adoption of advanced technologies that require QoS guarantees, and requires packets of spam email to be routed just as fast as those containing commands for a real-time remote controlled medical operation.


By TomZ on 6/29/2007 10:42:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
until you realize it forbids most QoS features

How does that follow from net neutrality? I figured net neutrality was about charging different rates for different content. But I don't undestand how it would keep an Internet provider from implementing QoS for the purpose of improving their service.


By Scrogneugneu on 7/1/2007 1:52:09 AM , Rating: 2
I would have a question...

Wouldn't it still be legal to implement a QoS feature for HD content, so long as EVERY HD content is equally treated?

That would be like a per-type packet equality. If it's for HD content, you need fast transfer-rate, so the speed will go higher. If it's for something else, well, it's for something else, let's just keep it flowing. Everybody is still equal in the end, and if they are able to do so, then they can enable those new technologies they want.

Just say you offer a general priority to HD content on your network, and beef up your prices. Net Neutrality forbids you from offering both an option with and one without that, but might not forbid you to offer that kind of service unilaterally.

The concept behind Net Neutrality is to treat everybody equally; if your only option does indeed treat everyone the same way (on a type of packet basis), then I believe the Net Neutrality spirit is safe.


By BMFPitt on 7/1/2007 1:39:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Wouldn't it still be legal to implement a QoS feature for HD content, so long as EVERY HD content is equally treated?
Not as the bill is written, but that's how it should be written. Then it's also a matter of determining what qualifies to be able to get this higher service level.
quote:
Just say you offer a general priority to HD content on your network, and beef up your prices. Net Neutrality forbids you from offering both an option with and one without that, but might not forbid you to offer that kind of service unilaterally.
It is impossible to have a network both with and without that. Either certain packets are given priority or they are not. Everyone's packets are traveling down the same wires.


By Fritzr on 7/3/2007 11:53:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is impossible to have a network both with and without that. Either certain packets are given priority or they are not. Everyone's packets are traveling down the same wires.


Very easy to do. Every packet identifies it's source. If you like the source, expedite ... if source forgot their protection money, delay...

The software is in place ... it's called filtering and is currently used as a spam fighting tool. Suspected spam sources get delayed...indefinitely :P


By BMFPitt on 7/4/2007 9:52:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
(From above) Just say you offer a general priority to HD content on your network, and beef up your prices. Net Neutrality forbids you from offering both an option with and one without that, but might not forbid you to offer that kind of service unilaterally.
My response was to the above, where someone seemed to be saying they could make it an end-user selectable option. As I can tell from your other posts, you know why this is not technically possible.


By Fritzr on 7/3/2007 11:48:06 PM , Rating: 2
No you misunderstood. If you pay for 6Mbs of bandwidth that's what YOU get. However if upstream where the packet streams merge the pipe is trying to send 5Tbs down a 4Tbs pipeline the paid packets will go with no delay ... the delay caused by the data burst being greater than the bandwidth will be seen in unpaid packets waiting til the paid packets have all been sent.

Note that the bandwidth remains the same, but the amount of data traveling through the system goes up and down. You get slow downs when the data flow is greater than the bandwidth. You get DOS when the ISP parks your traffic until the rest has cleared the bottleneck.

Net neutral says they are not allowed to park your packets, instead they would be required to forward on a FIFO basis ... a data surge slows everybody equally.


By Fritzr on 7/3/2007 11:40:25 PM , Rating: 2
Net neutrality has noting to do with bandwidth availability. It is concerned only with traffic scheduling.

Regardless of the amount of bandwidth there is a limit on the number of packets per second ... more bandwidth==more packets, nothing to do with content.

Net neutrality looks at reordering the queue when there are more packets than there are slots in the pipeline.

Under net neutral rules the packets line up for available outbound slots in the same order they arrive.

Under paid priority rules packets that have paid will be moved to the High Speed lane. As the scheduler decides which packet to send next it checks the High Speed Lane & sends any waiting packet, if there is nothing waiting there it checks the Low Speed Lane and sends the next packet waiting. So if there is enough paid traffic to fill the bandwidth then the unpaid service is subject to a legal DOS attack.

This is exactly what a DOS attack is ... providing enough inbound traffic to fill most of the packets that are in the pipeline. Pay for high priority on a trunk line, then flood it with your packets and all customers on lower service tiers suffer DOS.

Now when you have Video-on-demand service & can afford to pay for upper tier backbone service, you effectively cripple the startup video-on-demand that cannot yet afford to pay enough to join your DOS attack on folks who don't bribe the backbone providers. This suppression model applies to any service that has high traffic per transaction or requires fast responsive internet. The more people paying for priority on the backbones, the slower and more unreliable the service for the ones who can't afford to pay the bribes. The available bandwidth can go up or down, but as long as the paid packet is always cutting in ahead, the unpaid service is slowed down.

Provider neutral, content prioritized would be useful. A startup video company can notify the backbone that they are "Speed Sensitive" category and they will then join You-Tube, Google, TimeWarner and the other big players in the top service tier.

This variant is neutral to startups, but allows priority service to *categories* that are time sensitive. Will need some kind of licensing agency, private or government to certify each applicant for upgraded service, as really providing service that belongs to that category. Lots of room for a new MPAA or RIAA with this model :P


By Daigain on 6/29/2007 8:08:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, its always illuminating to look at the results of other failed government interventions. But unfortunately, people rarely learn from history, especially when it comes to attempting to use the government to get something for nothing. They keep thinking that THIS time it'll finally work.


I do not wish to make this into a political debate, but I think you've greatly misunderstood how this works. First no one gets anything for free and second it is to spark more competition between companies and to not allow monopoly like FiOS in the states be the only choice for consumers.

quote:
Net Neutrality is thinly veiled Socialism masquerading as a free speech issue. There are many new and exciting technologies waiting to be implement for the Net. Companies are salivating over the opportunity to provide them-- and charge more for them of course. The early adopters of those new services will wind up funding their implementation and, fairly quickly, bring down the price enough so that they're eventually so cheap as to be part of everyone's "base" package. That's the free-market model, and its proven it works fastest and best countless times over.


So in this case, we wait for companies to see enough profit in building something then pray and hope they will lower the prices with time. Or we build our own net, invite every provider that wishes to provide internet uplink and rejoice in the unlimited HDTV channels, unlimited telephone calls and extreme internet speeds. This is not a socialistic dream world, this is free market idea’s something that should be inspired in the states but it seems you swallow the propaganda that as soon as the government is involved it’s going to turn ugly. The government is only involved because they are to not take sides, to offer fair deals for all ISP that wishes to offer their services.

quote:
On the other side, is the "free lunch" crowd, who thinks simply by signing a law, they can force those companies to skip that middle step, and provide all those services to everyone, at the same base price point. That just doesn't work. Either those services will simply be provided to no one at all, until passing decades have finally made them so cheap their cost is minimal. Or they'll be provided via government funding in a poor, inefficient slipshod manner, and (if you count the hidden costs to your wallet in tax dollars) at a cost shocking enough to make a strong man gasp.


Well I don’t really see how the government is going to take over and run anything just because they legislate that companies can not just do as they wish. Total anarchy companies charging each other for every bit of information travelling anywhere. Of course that might not happen, but I at least think that it’s better to simply say no and legislate against such things before it can ever happen.


By TomZ on 6/29/2007 8:15:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but it seems you swallow the propaganda that as soon as the government is involved it’s going to turn ugly

It's not propaganda, it's experience! The U.S. Government has a real special talent for inefficiency in most of what it does. I think our government is too big, too beauracratic, and too political to execute a project like that effectively. Maybe the situation is different for your country.

Our only hope here is for commercial ventures to get the work done, since they can only profit if the thing is successful.


By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 9:20:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
First no one gets anything for free and second it is to spark more competition between companies and to not allow monopoly like FiOS in the states be the only choice for consumers.
Was that some kind of ironic hypothetical? Like 1% of people in the US can get FIOS so far.
quote:
Or we build our own net, invite every provider that wishes to provide internet uplink and rejoice in the unlimited HDTV channels, unlimited telephone calls and extreme internet speeds. This is not a socialistic dream world
Actually it is, but it sure sounds nice.
quote:
Total anarchy companies charging each other for every bit of information travelling anywhere. Of course that might not happen, but I at least think that it’s better to simply say no and legislate against such things before it can ever happen.
I'm not sure where you're going with that. Do you think companies currently don't pay for every bit of the bandwidth they use?


By Daigain on 6/30/2007 8:55:59 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Was that some kind of ironic hypothetical? Like 1% of people in the US can get FIOS so far.

It was not hypothetical. Because Verizon owns the cable as well as offer the services, it means they can put whatever price they wish on the service. Of course some people might say that well you can just switch to DSL or Cable, but I did not get fibre connection just so that I could go back so some crappy DSL service. I find it bad when one single ISP owns the connection and provides the service. What if there was only 1 DSL provider, only 1 Cable provider and only 1 Fibre provider. Prices would be extremely bad, speeds would be annoyingly slow, and services would be very bad.

I could simply compare a fibre connection in Sweden in a neutral net that favours no ISP over another to FiOS service.
Speed 100Mbit Price 40USD/month(including net fee and fee to ISP)
FiOS 5/2Mbit Price 39USD/month
Swedish non neutral net 10/10Mbit Price 45USD

Also one might think that 10/10Mbit for 45USD isn’t that bad, but these closed nets are the only ones that do not offer unlimited packages. Limits can be as low as 5GB a month outside their own net.

quote:
I'm not sure where you're going with that. Do you think companies currently don't pay for every bit of the bandwidth they use?

I might have phrased that bad, they do pay. But the rules are the same for everyone.


By Fritzr on 7/4/2007 12:08:35 AM , Rating: 2
FiOS has nothing to do with net neutrality. It is a bandwidth boosting technologhy. Net Neutrality addresses the scheduling of packets at relay points regardless of the bandwidth of the underlying carrier. If the FiOS owner is allowed to route packets from selected sources based on the owner's bias rather than the sequence that they were received by the relay server, then that would be concerning net neutrality.

Regardless of whether the pipe is 50Tbs or 110bps if selected packets are always given priority then the non-preferred packets will always have a higher than average latency. Net neutrality tries to ensure that all traffic is travelling at about the same effective throughput on any given connection. put High Priority traffic onto someone's dial-up connection & their background net connections will suffer DOS. High bandwidth connections will suffer less, but they will also see this effect if their ISP is not net neutral. The real issue though is the dozen or so worldwide backbone providers. Real easy to buy up traffic priority at that level if you are able to toss out a few million in bribes.

Allow the FiOS monopoly with net neutrality & the monopoly is limited to who you can purchase FiOS bandwidth from. Allow the monopoly to sell traffic scheduling and you may see low budget sites suddenly disappear under "time out error" messages.


There's competition in the UK
By psychobriggsy on 6/29/2007 9:36:11 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
In the U.K., where broadband access is traditionally more costly than in the U.S., prices have gradually declined according to research by the U.K. Office of Communications.


Yes, and each and every house has an option of a multitude of service providers running on top of the BT line (i.e., because BT provide the line doesn't mean you need to get DSL via BT) and you can even change the provider of the line if you desire. This means competition in both the final mile and with who runs on top of it.

That's before you consider cable internet in many areas.

From what I've heard in the states (correct me if I am wrong), each area generally only has one provider of service so most people don't have a choice of who they get broadband from. If they do, it's a rare enough situation that it doesn't create competition overall.




RE: There's competition in the UK
By blaster5k on 6/29/2007 9:56:21 AM , Rating: 2
It varies from area to area. In a lot of the country, there still isn't a choice. Where I am now, I can choose between two different cable providers, Verizon Fios, or DSL. It's some competition, but the companies play games still -- particularly with combining multiple services. You basically get locked into one provider for cable, internet, and phone unless you want to pay more.

Cable TV's gotta be the biggest racket. I only care about a few channels beyond basic, but I have to pay for a zillion channels I'll never watch in my life if I want to get them.


RE: There's competition in the UK
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 11:31:59 AM , Rating: 2
I envy you, I have exactly one choice for Internet and TV in my northeast facing apartment that's just far enough away from the nearest Verizon substation: Comcast. I would love to dump them for FIOS the second I get the chance, but it's not likely anytime soon.


RE: There's competition in the UK
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 11:38:16 AM , Rating: 3
> "I envy you, I have exactly one choice for Internet and TV...Comcast"

That's the result of the government stepping in to "help you" the consumer. A government-mandated monopoly on cable providers in your area. Want to see a worse boondoggle? Vote for Net Neutrality.


RE: There's competition in the UK
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 11:57:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
That's the result of the government stepping in to "help you" the consumer. A government-mandated monopoly on cable providers in your area.
Actually, I see this as a good example of how things would work out without Net Neutrality. Comcast sells access at artificially lowered speeds at higher prices than it does where other options are available only 30 minutes away. That's because there's no such thing as Cable Neutrality, and I have no choice to leave them other than to go without.
quote:
Want to see a worse boondoggle? Vote for Net Neutrality.
Your whole doomsday scenario thing doesn't work so well when you're talking about what would happen if Net Neutrality was passed, when it was already law up until a year or so ago, and is still practiced no while Congress is still sorting it out.


RE: There's competition in the UK
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 12:21:07 PM , Rating: 2
> "That's because there's no such thing as Cable Neutrality"

You're confusing competitive access with net neutrality. Most telcos are campaigning against restrictions that limit competition in a given area(the cable companies and the smaller RBOCs are, unsurprisingly, fighting for those restrictions to protect their turf).

You have one cable provider in your area for one simple reason. Its' the law. The government, in its infinite wisdom, felt it could "protect to consumer" best by enforcing monopoly status. Repeal the law, and you'd have several cable companies in your area in a few years. Sure, their lines would cross...but even with that minor inefficiency, competition would have them selling better service cheaper than you get now. That's the free market at work...not government mandates.


RE: There's competition in the UK
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 12:40:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You have one cable provider in your area for one simple reason. Its' the law.
I'm not sure if you actually think I'm disputing this, or that I support it in any way. Oh wait, you're saying that if I want the government to regulate some part of essential infrastructure, I must want the government to control everything. Now I'm following your fallacy.
quote:
The government, in its infinite wisdom, felt it could "protect to consumer" best by enforcing monopoly status.
The government felt no such thing.
quote:
Repeal the law, and you'd have several cable companies in your area in a few years. Sure, their lines would cross...but even with that minor inefficiency, competition would have them selling better service cheaper than you get now.
Sign me up for that ballot initiative. And their lines don't even need to cross, many cities have made the power lines public-ish, and given many power generating companies access. I see no compelling reason why this can't be done with cable lines.


RE: There's competition in the UK
By masher2 (blog) on 6/29/2007 12:47:40 PM , Rating: 1
> "The government felt no such thing"

Are you trying to claim that regulation doesn't exist to enforce a monopoly status for cable providers? Or are you making a snide remark that the government knew it wouldn't benefit consumers, but passed it anyway?

In either case, you're incorrect. The law is as I stated. And it was passed under the muddle-headed reasoning that a government-overseen monopoly would guarantee lower prices and better service.


RE: There's competition in the UK
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 2:45:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And it was passed under the muddle-headed reasoning that a government-overseen monopoly would guarantee lower prices and better service.
I can completely believe that that's how they sold it, but that doesn't mean they really believed that.


By Scrogneugneu on 7/1/2007 1:23:49 AM , Rating: 2
Are you insinuating that the cable companies actually gave money to the government so they could create a law legalizing a regional monopoly, thus making sure that these cable companies live for a long time on great profits without ever spending a single penny to upgrade or offer a better service? That's idiotic, it doesn't work that way at all!

Oh, wait...


By Oregonian2 on 6/29/2007 3:48:44 PM , Rating: 2
Kind-of. Comcast "cable" and Verizon FiOS optical "cable" co-exist locally and the Verizon one will be carrying TV services soon (already does in some other areas of the country). We use DirecTV so it really doesn't matter to me. So there are "dual" systems of a sort (I will say that Comcast isn't too happy about it, btw).


RE: There's competition in the UK
By Fritzr on 7/4/2007 12:19:45 AM , Rating: 2
So called "Naked DSL" any ISP over monopoly phone lines (BT in UK ... I've got Qwest)is available here. Amazingly the DSL service package from Qwest went way down in price when their customers were allowed to get DSL from their choice of ISP with or without landline phone service.

Cable is still a licensed 1 provider monopoly. ComCast also sells cable internet and telephone service.

For cable access alternatives we have Satellite TV. High speed consumer internet is limited to ComCast or DSL.

If Qwest brought in FiOS based cable TV I suspect that we'd see a Qwest vs ComCast price war. Hopefully they'd both win so they would have a continuing incentive not to gouge customers, at least not too much :D


Open it to more competition
By crystal clear on 6/29/2007 8:55:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The idea that Internet access should be regulated to avoid providers charging too much is not as big of a concern as many think,


You will not believe it because you are not willing to accept it !

Internet Access should be FREE-YES IT IS POSSIBLE,you find it strange & hard to believe indeed.

Like TV the same model can be applied- let sponsors & commercials/adverts pay for it.

This applies to home users only-Business user having special needs,should pay for a commercial/advert free model at special rates applicable to them.

I.S.P can provide this type of model/service,if they refuse then break them by issueing MORE operating license to new companies-in short increase competition between the I.S.Ps & let PRICES CRASH !




RE: Open it to more competition
By SandmanWN on 6/29/2007 10:24:02 AM , Rating: 3
I would rather pay for internet access then have to deal with commercial ads every 15 minutes as I surf the net.

Thanks, but NO thanks!


By AvidDailyTechie on 6/29/2007 11:51:24 AM , Rating: 2
As would I, but remember, you wouldn't be paying for the cost of access plus a nominal fee, you'd be paying for the companies massive profits each year.

To me, it seems that the only time a large corporation will typically care about gouging the customer is when they can't make it profitable or get away with it.

But maybe I'm just a skeptic.


RE: Open it to more competition
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 11:28:27 AM , Rating: 2
They tried this already, it failed.

What are these operating licenses you speak of? Anyone can start an ISP, my friend runs one out of his basement.


RE: Open it to more competition
By Martimus on 6/29/2007 11:36:41 AM , Rating: 2
This concept has been tried many times, and so far it has failed. That doesn't mean that it won't work, but it historically has been dificult for companies to make a profit providing free access to the internet using advertising to cover operating costs.


RE: Open it to more competition
By Duraz0rz on 6/29/2007 12:05:22 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, but I don't want ads to take precious screen space and bandwidth from my online gaming experience.


It needs to happen
By aurareturn on 6/29/2007 1:56:39 AM , Rating: 2
Net Neutrality needs to happen period. We just can't let these cooperations exploit us even more.




RE: It needs to happen
By killerroach on 6/29/2007 10:54:58 AM , Rating: 2
I'd be more worried about getting competition into these markets than having the government step in and tell them what they can and cannot do... keep in mind the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which partially deregulated the industry, set guidelines in place that the telecoms just worked around or ignored. Once either these setbacks are corrected (or a new broadband service with the possibility of universal coverage like BPL or WiMax comes around), that would do a lot more for the market than any more government meddling ever will.

The FCC is right; network neutrality isn't much of an issue. Market power is the issue, and right now the incumbent players have a bit too much of it (as was evidenced by the Telecommunications Act of 1996). If even relatively ham-handed regulatory efforts were able to pose little threat to them, then perhaps what they need to fear is the imminent possibility of other parties beginning to encroach on their turf...


RE: It needs to happen
By dever on 6/29/2007 1:12:06 PM , Rating: 2
Fundamental economics.

Government regulations > Less competition > Prices increase > Consumers pay

Government interference is anything but "Neutrality."


RE: It needs to happen
By tehliberal on 6/29/2007 2:55:20 PM , Rating: 2
If it were so fundamental, how did you get it wrong?

Government regulations are put in place to protect consumers.

Net Neutrality will keep the ISPs from extorting internet companies just like current laws keep the mafia from extorting brick and mortar stores.

Without it, the company will have to pay, which means they'll have to increase the cost of their products. Thus, without net neutrality, the consumer pays , and not just more money for the same products, the consumer also pays the price when the sites that don't pay are slowed down.

What exactly makes sense about ISPs telling us what we want anyway? Allowing the government (for the people, by the people...)to keep the ISPs from doing this is the same as the american populace forcing the ISPs to do what's best for the consumer.


RE: It needs to happen
By BMFPitt on 6/29/2007 9:04:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Government regulations are put in place to protect consumers.
That's what they tell you. A bunch are put in to protect companies.
quote:
Allowing the government (for the people, by the people...)to keep the ISPs from doing this is the same as the american populace forcing the ISPs to do what's best for the consumer.
Are you saying that whatever Congress does, they're speaking for you? That's a bold statement.


*!$*timewarner.org
By daftrok on 6/29/2007 3:16:42 AM , Rating: 1
John Hodgman's explanation of Net Neutrality was the most hilarious and most accurate explanation of the issue. I believe that it has to be passed in order for anyone to have a fair share in broadcasting their websites. If the FCC doesn't think its a big issue then they can kiss my ass.




RE: *!$*timewarner.org
By myhipsi on 7/3/2007 12:20:17 PM , Rating: 2
Some people here seem to think that any government regulation is bad for the market and hence the consumer and that large corporations are angelic and benevolent. Well, I'll cite one example of deregulation gone bad. The Telecommuncations act of 1996. The fundamental problem is that the huge companies that dominate the telephone and cable TV industries (or any industry for that matter) prefer mergers and acquisitions to competition. For example, 6 major media companies own a large majority of the airwaves now, and as a result, we get FOX, need I say more. When government is left to grow out of control you get communism and socialism, and when corporations are left to grow out of control you get fascism. Either option is bad, there needs to be a balance, and as far as the internet goes, Net Neutrality is that balance.


my 2 cents...
By bighairycamel on 6/29/2007 7:48:34 AM , Rating: 3
If there is one thing I learned from video games, it is to never trust a person named Majora.




Yeah, but...
By TomCorelis (blog) on 6/29/2007 5:19:46 AM , Rating: 2
According to the FTC report (read the chapter with arguments against neutrality), most of the limits on the telcos and operators are temporary. They have timeframes that expire in a few years.... for example, take AT&T's secret cheap DSL: I believe that's only supposed to last a couple of years before AT&T is no longer obligated to offer supercheap DSL service.

Unless these time periods are renewed, which I consider unlikely, many of the protections in place will expire and the network operators will have full control.